
Zarathushtra (''Zaraθuštra''), usually known in English as Zoroaster after the Greek language version of the name, Ζωροάστρης, was an Iranians prophet and the founder of Zoroastrianism, which was the national religion of Iran from the time of the Achaemenidae to the close of the Sassanian dynasty period. Zoroaster was probably born in the north eastern part of Iran, though there is also a tradition that he came from Balkh in modern day Afghanistan. In Modern Persian the name takes the form of ''Zartošt'' or ''Zardošt'' (زرتشت). Zoroaster is generally accepted as a historical figure, but efforts to date Zoroaster vary widely. Scholarly estimates are usually roughly near 1000 BC. Others however give earlier estimates, making him a candidate as the founder of the earliest religion based on revealed scripture. ==Zoroaster's name== The name ''zaraθ-uštra'' is a Bahuvrihi compound in the Avestan language, of ''zarəta-'' "feeble, old" and ''uštra'' "camel", translating to "having old camels, the one who owns old camels". The first part of the name was formerly commonly translated as "yellow" or "golden", from the Avestan "zaray", giving the meaning "[having] yellow camels". A more romantic, but inaccurate, translation of the name in the past has been "[bringer of the] golden dawn", based on the mistaken assumption that the second part of the name is a variant of the Vedic word "Ushas" meaning "dawn". This last translation seems to have derived from a desire to give a more fitting meaning to the prophet's name than "owner of feeble camels." ==Zoroaster in History== Estimates for the lifetime of Zoroaster vary widely depending on the sources used. * Irann mythology, mainly the ''Shahnama'' of Ferdowsi, and oral tradition place Zoroaster quite early. Manly Palmer Hall in his book, Twelve World Teachers, arrives at rough estimate ranging from 10000 BC to 1000 BC. * Zoroaster was famous in classical antiquity as the founder of the religion of the Magi. His name is cited by Xanthus, and in the ''Alcibiades'' of Plato as well as by Plutarch, Pliny the Elder and Diogenes Laertius. Ancient Greek estimates are dependent on Irann mythology and give dates as early as the 7th millennium BC. These are the dates to which Parsis subscribe.[http://home.btconnect.com/CAIS/first_prophet.htm] [http://web.utk.edu/~persian/monotheism.htm] * Archaeological evidence is usually inconclusive for questions of religion. However, a Russian archaeologist links Zoroaster to ca. 2000 BC based on excavations in Uzbekistan to (Asgarov, 1984). Indo-Iranian religion is generally accepted to have its roots in the 3rd millennium, but Zoroaster himself did already look back on a long religious tradition. * Linguistic analysis of the Gathas, the only texts directly connected with Zoroaster, and comparison with other known Indo-Iranian languages, especially Sanskrit, can only give rough estimates, generally dating Zoroaster to the early 1st millennium BC. 1400–1000 BC is cited by Mary Boyce in her ''A History of Zoroastrianism'' (1989). * The historical approach compares social customs described in the Gathas to what is known of the time and region through other historical studies. Since the Gathas are very cryptic, and open to much interpretation, such a method can also only yield very rough estimates. Gherardo Gnoli gives a date near c. 1000 BC. *The ''Bundahishn'' or ''Creation'', an important text within the religion, cites the time of Zoroaster as 258 years before Alexander the Great conquest of Persia, i.e. 588 BC. *Other scholars have been arguing even later dates, now widely rejected. Darmesteter reports 100 BC; before 458 BC is cited by H.S. Nyberg in ''Die Religionen des Alten Iran'' (1938). ==Life of Zoroaster== What we know of the life of Zoroaster is from the Avesta, the Gathas, the Greek texts, oral history (which is a significant method of teaching in the tradition), and what can be inferred and archeological evidence. The 13th section of the Avesta, the ''Spena Nask'', the description of Zoroaster's life, has perished over the centuries. The biographies in the seventh book of the Denkard (9th century AD) and the ''Shahnama'' are mythic. It is fair to say that Zoroaster lived in the NE area of ancient Iranian territory. The Greeks refer to him as a Bactrian (coming from present day Afghanistan), a Medes or a Persian about 3-5,000 years ago. His wife was named ''Hvōvi'', and they had three daughters, ''Freni'', ''Friti'' and ''Pourucista'', and three sons, ''Isat Vastar'', ''Uruvat-Nara'' and ''Hvare Ciθra''. His mother was Dughdova; his father was ''Pourushaspa Spitāma'', son of ''Haecadaspa Spitāma''. His illumination from Mazda came at age 30. His first converts were his wife and children and a cousin named ''Maidhyoimangha''. The Greek writers recount a few points regarding the childhood of Zoroaster and his hermit-life. According to tradition and ''Pliny's Natural History'' Zoroaster laughed on the day of his birth and lived in the wilderness. He seems to have enjoyed exploring the wilderness from a young age. Plutarch compares him with Lycurgus and Numa Pompilius (''Numa,'' 4). Dio Chrysostom relates Zoroaster's Ahura Mazda to Zeus. Plutarch, drawing partly on Theopompus, speaks of Zoroastrianism in ''Isis and Osiris''. Here he is a mortal, empowered by trust in his God and the protection of his allies. He faces outward opposition and unbelief and inward doubt. These human qualities support a historical Zoroaster, despite a lack of historical detail. The Gathas are poetic admonitions and prophecies, cast in the form of dialogues with God and the Amesha Spentas "Immortals" (Pahlavi ''Amahraspandān''). However, they seem to contain allusions to personal events, overcoming obstacles in life imposed by competing priests and the ruling class. He had difficulty spreading his teachings, and was even treated with ill-will in his mother's hometown (an exceptional insult in his culture and time). It is important to note the differences between the Zoroaster of the later Avesta and the Zoroaster of the Gathas. In the later Avesta, he is depicted wrestling with the ''Deva (Hinduism)'' or "evil immortals" (Pahlavi ''Dēwān''), and, in remarkable prescience of Jesus in the New Testament, is tempted by Ahriman to renounce his faith. (Yasht, 17,19) The historical Zoroaster, however, eludes categorization as a legendary character. The Gathas within the Avesta make claim to be the ''ipsissima verba'' of the prophet. The ''Vendidad'' also gives accounts of the dialogues between Ahura Mazda and Zoroaster. They are the last surviving account of his doctrinal discourses presented at the court of King Hystaspes. ==Placing Zoroaster in a Historical Context== Textual evidence regarding the birthplace of Zoroaster is conflicting. Yasnas 9 & 17 cite Airyanem Vaejah, "Homeland of the ''Aryans''" (Pahlavi ''Ērān Wēj''), on the river Ditya, as the home of Zoroaster, and the scene of his first appearance. The ''Bundahishn'' or ''Creation'' (20, 32 and 24, 15) says the Dhraja River in ''Ērān Wēj'' was his birthplace and the home of his father. This same text identifies ''Ērān Wēj'' with the district of Arran on the river Aras (Araxes) close by the north-western frontier of Medes. According to Yasna 59, 18, the ''zaraθuštrotema'', or supreme head of the Zoroastrian priesthood, had his residence in Ragha at a later (Sassanid dynasty) time. The Iranian Muslim writer Shahrastani endeavours to solve the conflict by arguing that his father was a man of Atropatene, while the mother was from Rai. According to Yasnas 5 & 105, he prayed for the conversion King Hystaspes. He then appears to have left his native district. Yasnas 53 & 9 suggest that he ventured to Rai and was unwelcome. Eventually he met Hystaspes, king of Bactria. In the Gathas he appears as a historical personage. The court of Hystaspes included two brothers, ''Frašaōštra'' and ''Jamaspa''; both were, according to the later legend, vizirs of Hystaspes. Zoroaster was closely related to both: his wife, Hvōvi, was the daughter of Frashaōštra, and the husband of his daughter, ''Pourucista'', was ''Jamaspa''. The actual role of intermediary was played by the pious queen ''Hutaōsa''. Apart from this connection, the new prophet relies especially upon his own kindred (''hvaētuš''). His first disciple, ''Maidhyoimaōngha'', was his cousin; his father was, according to the later Avesta, ''Pourušaspa'', his mother ''Dughdova'', his great-grandfather ''Haēcataspa'', and the ancestor of the whole family Spitama, for which reason Zoroaster usually bears this surname. His sons and daughters are repeatedly mentioned. His death is not mentioned in the Avesta; in the ''Shahnama'', he is said to have been murdered at the altar by the Turanns in the storming of Balkh. Placing the date of King Hystaspes is difficult. Antiquated sources suggest Hystaspes was Hystaspes, father of Darius I of Persia. ''Hutaōsa'' is the same name as Atossa, who apparently was queen consort to Cambyses II, Smerdis and Darius I. The matriarchal name is the only link to the Achaemenidian lineage. According to the ''Arda Wiraf'', Zoroaster taught an estimated 300 years before the invasion of Alexander the Great. Assyrian inscriptions relegate him to a more ancient period. Eduard Meyer (v. ''Ancient Persia'') maintainins that the Zoroastrian religion must have been predominant in Medes, therefore, estimates the date of Zoroaster at 1000 BC, in agreement with Duncker (''Geschichte des Altertums'', 44, 78). Zoroaster may have emanated from the old school of Medesn Magi and appeared first in Medes as the prophet of a new faith, but met with sacerdotal opposition and turned his steps eastward. Zoroastrianism then seems to have acquired a solid footing in eastern Iran, where it continues to survive in dwindling numbers. ==Date of Zoroaster== One of the most important, and dividing, of all issues regarding the Iranian history is “the date of Zoroaster”, that is the date when he lived and composed his Gathas. Different sources ranging from linguistic evidence to textual sources and traditional dates have been used by various scholars to determine the date of Zoroaster. Accordingly, any date from the 6th century BC to 6000 BC has been suggested, although some with more merit than others. Here we shall look at the most prominent of these arguments. A point of view held by many prominent scholars, among them Taghizadeh and W.B.Henning and continued by Gnoli among others, is what is known as “the Traditional Date of Zoroaster”. This date which was suggested in the Sasanian commentaries on the Avesta (Bundahišn), gives the date of Zoroaster’s life as “258 years before Alexander”. However one might want to interpret this statement (whether from the date of Alexander’s entry to Iran or even possibly from what is known as the “Seleucid Era”), the traditional dating would put Zoroaster at 6th century BC. This placement is particularly attractive when one notices that this dating would make Darius and Zoroaster contemporaries of sort, making Darius’ prominent mention of “Ahuramazda” and other Zorostrian motifs quite appropriate. Furthermore, the fact that Zoroaster’s benefactor, Kāvi Wishtaspa, closely reminds us of the name of Darius’ father, Wishtaspa, who was the Satrap of Parthia during the time of Cyrus the Great in the middle of the 6th century BC. According to this view, Zoroaster lived in the court of Darius’ father as the chief clergy and influenced Darius as a young man. It was due to this influence that Darius makes constant mentions of Ahuramāmazdā and other Zoroastrian motifs in his inscriptions. The traditional tale of Zarathushtra's death, being slain by invading “Turan” warriors has also been affiliated with the unrests of Darius’ early years on the throne and the attacks of the rulers of Drangiana and Sogdiana on Bactria. However, from an early time, scholars such as Bartholomea and Christensen noticed the problems with “Traditional Date”, namely the linguistic difficulties that it presents. As we know, Zoroaster himself composed the 18 poems that make-up the oldest parts of the Avesta, known as “the Gathas”. The language of the Gathas, as well as the text known as “Yasna Haptanghaiti” (the Seven Chapter Sermon), is called “Old Avestan” and is significantly different and more archaic than the language of the other parts of the Avesta, “Young Avestan”. On the other hand, Old Avestan is very close to the language of the Rig Veda (known as Vedic Sanskrit). The closeness in composition of Old Avestan and Vedic is so much that some parts of Gathas can be transliterated to Vedic only by following the rules of sound change (such as the development of Indo-Iranian “s” to Avestan “h”). These similarities suggest that Old Avestan and Vedic were very close in time, probably putting Old Avestan at about one century after Vedic. Since the date of the composition of Rig-Veda has been put at somewhere between the 15-12th centuries BC, we can also assume that Gathas were composed close to that time, at sometimes before 1000 BC. Furthermore, a look at the Gathas and their composition shows us that the society in which they were composed was a nomadic society that lived at a time prior to settlement in large urban areas and depended greatly on pastoralism. This would stand sharply apart from the view of a Zoroaster living in the court of an Achaemenid satrap such as Wištaspa. Also, the absence of any mention of Achaemenids or even any West Iranian tribes such as Medes and Persians, or even Parthians, in the Gathas makes it unlikely that historical Zoroaster ever lived in the court of a 6th century Satrap. It is possible that Zoroaster lived sometimes in the 13th to 11th centuries BC, prior to the settlement of Iranian tribes in the central and west of the Iranian Plateau. ==The Gāthās of Zoroastrianism== The teachings of Zoroaster is presented in 17 liturgy, texts, or "hymns", the yasna which is divided into groups called Gathas. If basic precepts of Zoroastrianism are to be distilled into a single maxim, the maxim is ''Humata, Hukhta, Huvarshta'' (Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds). A cosmic struggle between ''Aša'' "The Truth" (Pahlavi ''Ahlāyīh'') and ''Druj'' "The Lie" (Pahlavi ''Druz'') is presented as the foundation of our existence. This is often related to a struggle between ''good'' and ''evil'' in a Western paradigm. This may also be conceptualized as a battle between Darkness and Light. The two opposing forces in this battle are Ahura Mazda (God) and Ahriman (Satan). In the ''yasna''s, Zoroaster refers to these forces as "the Better and the Bad." Zoroaster describes Ahura Mazda in a series of rhetoric questions, "Who established the course of the sun and star? ... who feeds and waters the plants? ... what builder created light and darkness? Through whom does exist dawn, noon and night?" (Yasna 44, 4-6). #''Vohu Manu'', Pahlavi ''Wahman'', "Good Mind": the principle of the good #''Ašəm'', afterwards ''Ašəm Vahištəm'', Pahlavi ''Ardwahišt'': "Right": truth and the embodiment of all that is true, good and right, upright law and rule (ideas practically identical for Zoroaster) #''Xšaθra- Vairya-'', Pahlavi ''Šahrewar'': "Best Rule", the power and kingdom of Ahura Mazda and guardian of metals #''Spɚnta- Ārmatay-'', Pahlavi ''Spandarmad'', "Holy Thought": the female immortal of the earth #''Haurvatat'': "Perfection" #''Amərətatāt'', Pahlavi ''Amurdād'': "Immortality", the guardian of food and plants. Other prominent immortals are Geush Urvan, defender of animals, and ''Sraōša'', Pahlavi Srōš'' "Obedience". ==History and later development== For the great mass of the people, Zoroaster's doctrine was too abstract and spiritualistic. The vulgar fancy requires sensuous, plastic deities, which admit of visible representation; and so the old gods received honour again and new gods won acceptance. They are the angels (Avestan ''yazata'', Pahlavi ''yazdān''). In the later Avesta, we find not only ''Mithra'' but also purely popular divinities such as ''Vərəθraghna'' "Victory", ''Anāhita'' (goddess of the waters), ''Tištrya'' "Sirius" (Pahlavi ''Tištar'') and other heavenly bodies invoked with special preference. The Gathas know nothing of a new belief which afterwards arose in the ''fravashi'', or guardian angels of the faithful. ''Fravashi'' properly means "confession of faith", and when personified comes to be regarded as a protecting spirit. Unbelievers have no ''fravashi''. On the basis of the new teaching arose a widespread priesthood (''aθravano'') that systematized its doctrines, organized and carried on its worship and laid down the minutely elaborated laws for the purifying and keeping clean of soul and body, which are met with in the ''Vendidad''. To these ecclesiastical precepts and expiations belong in particular the numerous ablutions, bodily chastisements, love of truth, beneficial works, support of comrades in the faith, alms, chastity, improvement of the land, arboriculture, breeding of cattle, agriculture, protection of useful animals, as the dog, the destruction of noxious animals, and the prohibition either to burn or to bury the dead. These are to be left on the appointed places or (dakhmas) and exposed to the vultures and wild dogs. In the worship, the drink prepared from the ''Soma'' plant had a prominent place. Worship was devoid of pomp; it was independent of temples. Its centre was the holy fire on the altar. The fire altars afterwards developed into fire temples. In the sanctuary of these temples the various sacrifices and high and low masses were celebrated. As offerings, meat, milk, show-bread, fruits, flowers and consecrated water were used. Priests were the privileged keepers and teachers of religion. They only performed the sacrifices (Herodotus, i. 132), educated the young clergy, imposed the penances; they in person executed the circumstantial ceremonies of purification and exercised a spiritual guardianship and pastoral care of the laymen. Every young believer in Ahura Mazda, after having been received into the religious community by being girt with holy lace, had to choose a confessor and a spiritual guide (''ratu''). Also in eschatology, a change took place. The last things and the end of the world are relegated to the close of a long period of time (3000 years after Zoroaster), when a new ''saōšyant'' (Pahlavi ''sōšyans'') or "savior" will be born from the line of Zoroaster, the dead will return to life and a new incorruptible world will begin. Zoroastrianism was the national religion of Greater Persia, but it was not permanently restricted to the Iranians, being professed by Turanians as well. The worship of the Persian gods spread to Armenia and Cappadocia and over the whole of the Near East (Strabo, xv. 3, 14; xi. 8, 4; 14, 76). Of the Zoroastrian religion under the Achaemenid Dynasty and Aeracides, little is known. After the overthrow of the Achaemenids, a period of decay seems to have set in. Yet the Aeracides and the Indo-Scythian kings as well as the Achaemenids were believers in Ahura Mazda. The national restoration of the Sassanid dynasty brought new life to the Zoroastrianism and long-lasting sway to its clergy. Protected by this dynasty, the priesthood developed into a completely organized state church, which was able to employ the power of the state in enforcing strict compliance with the religious law-book hitherto enjoined by their unaided efforts only. The head of the priesthood, or ''zarathuštrotema'', had his seat at Rai in Medes and was the first person in the state next to the king. The formation of sects was at this period not infrequent (cf. Manichaeism). The Islamic conquest of Iran (636), with the terrible persecutions of the following centuries, led to the gradual decline of Zoroastrianism. In Iran itself, Zoroastrian communities, though a minority, continue to persist despite the odds (primarily centred in Kerman and Yazd). The Parsis in and around Bombay hold by Zoroaster as their prophet and by the ancient religious usages, but their doctrine has reached the stage of a pure monotheism. ==Zoroaster in the West== Zoroaster was known as a sage, magician and miracle-worker in post-Classical Western culture, though almost nothing was known of his ideas until the late eighteenth century. By this time his name was associated with with lost ancient wisdom and was appropriated by Freemasons and other groups who claimed access to such knowledge. He appears in Mozart's opera ''The Magic Flute'' under the variant name "Sarastro", who represents moral order in opposition to the "Queen of the Night". Enlightenment writers such as Voltaire promoted research into Zoroastrianism in the belief that it was a form of rational Deism, preferable to Christianity. With the translation of the Avesta by Abraham Anquetil-Duperron Western scholarship of Zoroastrianism began. In the nineteenth century, the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche used the name of Zarathustra in his seminal book ''Also sprach Zarathustra''. Nietzsche fictionalizes and dramatizes Zarathustra toward his own literary and philosophical aims, presenting him as a returning visionary who repudiates the designation of good and evil and thus marks the observation of the death of God. Nietzsche asserted that he had chosen to put his ideas into the mouth of Zarathustra because the historical prophet had been the first to proclaim the opposition between "good" and "evil", by rejecting the Daeva (representing natural forces) in favour of a moral order represented by the Ahuras. It was this act that Nietzsche proposed to invert. Richard Strauss's Opus 30, inspired by Nietzsche's book, is also called ''Also sprach Zarathustra''. Its opening fanfare (corresponding to the book's prologue) was memorably used to score the opening sequence of Stanley Kubrick's movie ''2001: A Space Odyssey''. ==Bibliography== Boyce, Mary. ''Textual Sources for the Study of Zoroastrianism'', University of Chicago Press, 1984. Gnoli, Gherado. ''Zoroaster in History'', Biennial Yarshater Lecture Series 2, Bibliotheca Persica 2000. Gnoli, Gherardo. "Agathias and the Date of Zoroaster," ''Eran ud Aneran, Festrschrift Marshak'', 2003. http://www.transoxiana.com.ar/Eran/Articles/gnoli.html [http://www.transoxiana.com.ar/Eran/Articles/gnoli.html] Humbach, Helmut. ''The Gathas of Zarathushtra'', Heidelburg, 1991. Shapur Shahbazi, Ali Reza. “The Traditional Date of Zoroaster Explained”, ''BSOAS'', Vol 40, No. 1. London. http://www.azargoshnasp.net/~iran/Din/traditionaldateofzoroaster.pdf [http://www.azargoshnasp.net/~iran/Din/traditionaldateofzoroaster.pdf] ==See also== *List of founders of major religions ==External links== *[http://www.iranologie.com/history/zarathushtra.html Zarathushtra and His Religion] (iranologie.com) *[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0062&layout=&query=id%3Dzoroaster&loc=zoroaster Harry Thurston Peck's entry on Zoroaster, in the ''Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities'' (1898)] *[http://www.crystalinks.com/z.html Zoroaster--Zarathustra, The Persian Prophet] * [http://www.avesta.org/yasna/yasna.htm Zarathushtra's Gathas] (avesta.org) Zoroastrianism Prophets fa:زرتشت nds:Zarathustra
== Rewrite? == Although this article in its current form contains much valuable information, it seems to me to be wordy and biased. I believe the size limit is 32K, and this one weighs in at around 38K. A few recent edits contained pertinent information, but the article was reverted to an earlier version, because the person who did the reversion felt that the edits had not improved the article. Additional information, clarification and removal of bias by inclusion of multiple points of view are desireable in general, and certainly by Wikipedia standards, so I would like to take a shot at rewriting this article, being careful to maintain all of the information that the original author included, minus the bias and some of the length, and including some of the information that was lost in the reversion, minus the bias and argumentative tone. This topic is of great interest to me, and I've spent considerable time researching when Zarathustra lived and the evolution of Zoroastrianism after his death. --User:dave c :: Is IS wordy and biased, as well as outdated. I'm having a hand at cleaning it up but it's a major piece of work to deal with. I would suggest accessing current scolarship on the subject including Mary Boyce and FEZANA. User:Zosodada 16:18, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) Oh, please, oh please do. I barely managed to get through it, and I find the topic interesting enough research on my time off. Between the incomprehensible attempts at foreign languages and characters (see Greek) and the lack of conciseness, I learned less than expected from this usually top-notch resource. --Terri == Greek == The word "ZajpodtTTpi/s" is presumably a scanning error from attempting to scan Greek letters as English text. Could anyone fix this with the correct spelling (in the Greek alphabet) of the Greek version of the name? I can guess at something like Ζοροαστερ (???) but it's a pure guess based on phonetics: I don't know Greek at all. :Some googling turned up a few instances of Ζωροαστρη in what looks like the genitive. --User:Brion VIBBER 11:32 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC) In that case, the best guess so far is Ζωροαστρ ? I'll put it in the article, as it is at least better than what's there at the moment.... :Aha! Ζωροάστρης[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0062&layout=&query=id%3Dzoroaster&loc=zoroaster]. --User:Brion VIBBER 13:04 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC) Yes! I can now also see how that might OCR as ZajpodtTTpi/s. User:The Anome There are other OCR mangles in here: I guess they will have to wait for someone to go back to a paper or scanned copy of the 1911 EB and type them in. -- User:The Anome 17:48 20 Jul 2003 (UTC) ---- "Zoroastres" does not seem really "corrupt Greek", rather an attempt to translate the "ushtra" (star) into Greek. Is that so? User:Jorge Stolfi 01:57, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC) == NPOV? == "He [Zoroaster] purified it [Persian religion] I from the grossly sensual elements of daëva worship, and uplifted the idea of religion to a higher and purer sphere. The motley body of Aryan folk-belief, when subjected to the unifying thought of a speculative brain, was transformed to a selfcontained theory of the universe and a logical dualistic principle." any talk of a religion 'purifying' a prior culture does kinda seem a little odd. :: Yes, it's odd and biased. "Reforming", however, might be acceptable. I'll attempt to make note of specific reforms if I'm not completely overwhelmed. User:Zosodada 16:21, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) == Very much "NPOV?" == The whole writing style of this entry is florid and overheated, to the point that I've given up on reading it all the way through. Someone needs to replace this entry with one that's about a quarter the length and more matter-of-fact, so that it doesn't sound like a sermon by a true believer. == Zoroaster is the first mouthiest of written history == Some historians believe than in Zoroaster’s original religion, God (Ahuramezd) is the only creator and the Devil (Ahreman) is also a creation of God, who later turned against God. As proof of this some similarities between Islam (and other Abrahamic religions) and Zoroasterism can be mentioned. Among these are 101 names for God (close to 99 in Islam), 4 angles (same as Islam), 5 times prayer (same as Islam) and the description of Heaven and Hell. In fact, the word Jaheem (hell in Farsi) is used as is in the Holy Quran and some orientalists believe Islam is a mixture of Zoroasterism and Judaism, which is of course untrue and the similarities are due to all three (Islam, Judaism and Zoroasterism) coming from the same divine source. :: What is a "mouthiest"? == Meaning of Zarathushtra == Unlike what is suggested, the Ushtra in Zarathushtra does not mean "star". Iranian is not a Semitic language and Ishtar does not play a role in the name of Zarathushtra. Zara- is the Old Iranian form of Modern Persian "zal" meaning 'old, aged'. Ushtra- is the genetive form of Ushtr- (syllabic r), meaning 'camel'! Zarathushtra means "the one who owns old camels". :Even though you are right about "star" not existing in Zarathustra's name, you are making a mistake in thinking that "star" comes from semitic "ishtra-". In fact mid-Persian for "star" is "starak" and in modern persian it is "stara" (corrupted in Tehrani vernacular as "setareh"). sure. but ''zarat'' is not from "golden". You are thinking of ''zaray'' (Sanskrit ''hari'') "golden/yellow/green". User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 12:28, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Behistun?== the first line of the inscription translates to :I (am) Darius, the great king, the king of kings, the king in Persia, the king of countries, the son of Hystaspes, the grandson of Arsames, the Achaemenide. Ahuramazda is mentioned in the inscription, of course, but not Zoroaster. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 12:28, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Thank you for the correction. I stand corrected. I knew it was Ahuramazda that was mentioned in the inscription, I don't know why I thought it was Zarathustra. Anyhow, since there is no evidence that anyone other than Zarathustra introduced the concept of Ahuramazda/Zarathurstrianism, I think we can safely say that "by extention" Zarathustrianism (and thus, Zarathustra) is implied whenever we encounter "Ahuramazada". == "founder of the oldest monotheistic religion." == The article says he's probably the founder of the oldest monotheistic religion, but in "Zoroastrianism", his religion is defined as polytheistic. They're kinda opposite, so...? --User:Menchi 02:46, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC) :it's henotheism, like all early monotheistic religians (including Genesis). But it's not the earliest one anyway. see this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zoroaster&diff=9564490&oldid=9559501] diff, where Zosodada changed the essentially correct statement to what is basically fantasy. I would be glad if someone fixed it. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 09:35, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC) ==essay cut from article== I cut the following essay from the article. Have you ever ''looked'' at the Gathas? They are ''very'' opaque. Every statement you want to make about Zoroaster's views will need some serious backing up and qualification or attribution. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 08:18, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC) ---- As soon as the two separate spirits (cf. Bundahish, I, 4) encounter one another, their creative activity and at the same time their permanent conflict begin. The history of this conflict is the history of the world. A great cleft runs right through the world: all creation divides itself into that which is Ahura's and that which is Ahrirnan's. Not that the two spirits carry on the struggle in person; they leave it to be fought out by their respective creations and creatures which they sent into the field. The field of battle is the present world. In the centre of battle is man: his soul is the object of the war. Man is a creation of Ormazd. who therefore has the right to call him to account. But Ormazd created him free in his determinations and in his actions, wherefore he is accessible to the influences of the evil powers. This freedom of the will is clearly expressed in Yasna, 31, II: "Since thou, O Mazda, didst at the first create our being and our consciences in accordance with thy mind, and didst create our understanding and our life together with the body, and works and words in which man according to his own will can frame his confession, the liar and the truth-speaker alike lay hold of the word, the knowing and the ignorant each after his own heart and understanding. Armaiti searches, following thy spirit, where errors are found." Man takes part in this conflict by all his life and activity in the world. By a true confession of faith, by every good deed, word and thought, by continually keeping pure his body and his soul, he impairs the power of Satan and strengthens the might of goodness, and establishes a claim for reward upon Ormazd; by a false confession, by every evil deed, word and thought and defilement, he increases the evil and renders service to Satan. The life of man falls into two parts — its earthly portion and that which is lived after death is past. The lot assigned to him after death is the result and consequence of his life upon earth. No religion has so clearly grasped the ideas of guilt and of merit. On the works of men here below a strict reckoning will be held in heaven (according to later representations, by Rashnu, the genius of justice, and Mithra). All the thoughts, words and deeds of each are entered in the book of life as separate items — all the evil works, etc., as debts. Wicked actions cannot be undone, but in the heavenly account can be counterbalanced by a surplus of good works. It is only in this sense that an evil deed can be atoned for by a good deed. Of a real remission of sins the old doctrine of Zoroaster knows nothing, whilst the later Zoroastrian Church admits repentance, expiation and remission. After death the soul arrives at the ''chinvat peretu'', or accountant's bridge, over which lies the way to heaven. Here the statement of his life account is made out. If he has a balance of good works in his favour, he passes forthwith into paradise (''Garo dernana'') and the blessed life. If his evil works outweigh his good, he falls finally under the power of Satan, and the pains of hell are his portion for ever. Should the evil and the good be equally balanced, the soul passes into an intermediary stage of existence (the Ham~stakans of the Pahiavi books) and its final lot is not decided until the last judgment. This court of reckoning, the judicium particulare, is called 6/ia. The course of inexorable law cannot be turned aside by any sacrifice or offering, nor yet even by the free grace of God. But man has been smitten with blindness and ignorance: he knows neither the eternal law nor the things which await him after death. He allows himself too easily to be ensnared by the craft of the evil powers who seek to ruin his future existence. He worships and serves false gods, being unable to distinguish between truth and lies. Therefore it is that Ormazd in his grace determined to open the eyes of mankind by sending a prophet to lead them by the right way, the way of salvation. According to later legend (Vd., 2, 1), Ormazd at first wished to entrust this task to Yima (Jemshid), the ideal of an Iranian king. But Yima, the secular man, felt himself unfitted for it and declined it. He contented himself therefore with establishing in his paradise (vara) a heavenly kingdom in miniature, to serve at the same time as a pattern for the heavenly kingdom that was to come. Zoroaster at last, as being a spiritual man, was found fit for the mission. He experienced within himself the inward call to seek the amelioration of mankind and their deliverance from ruin, and regarded this inner impulse, intensified as it was by long, contemplative solitude and by visions, as being the call addressed to him by God Himself. Like Muhammad after him he often speaks of his conversations with God and the archangels. He calls himself most frequently ''manthran'' ("prophet") ''ratu'' ("spiritual authority"), and ''scoshyant'' ("the coming helper" — that is to say, when men come to be judged according to their deeds). The full contents of his dogmatic and ethical teaching we cannot gather from the Gathas. He speaks for the most part only in general references of the divine commands and of good and evil works. Among the former those most inculcated are renunciation of Satan, adoration of Ormazd, purity of soul and body, and care of the cow. We learn little otherwise regarding the practices connected with his doctrines. A ceremonial worship is hardly mentioned. He speaks more in the character of prophet than in that of lawgiver. The contents of the Gathas are essentially eschatological. Revelations concerning the last things and the future lot, whether bliss or woe, of human souls, promises for true believers, threatenings for misbelievers, his firm confidence as to the future triumph of the good — such are the themes continually dwelt on with endless variations. It was not without special reason — so Zoroaster believed — that the calling of a prophet should have taken place precisely when it did. It was, he held, the final appeal of Ormazd to mankind at large. Like John the Baptist and the Apostles of Jesus, Zoroaster also believed that the fullness of time was near, that the kingdom of heaven was at hand. Throurh the whole of the Gathas runs the pious hope that the end of the present world is not far distant. He himself hopes, with his followers, to live to see the decisive turn of things, the dawn of the new and better aeon. Ormazd will summon together all his powers for a final decisive struggle and break the power of evil for ever; by his help the faithful will achieve the victory over their detested enemies, the daëva worshippers, and render them impotent. Thereupon Ormazd will hold a judicium universale, in the form of a general ordeal, a great test of all mankind by fire and molten metal, and will judge strictly according to justice, punish the wicked, and assign to the good the hoped-for reward. Satan will be cast, along with all those who have been delivered over to him to suffer the pains of hell, into the abyss, where he will henceforward lie powerless. Forthwith begins the one undivided kingdom of God in heaven and on earth. This is called, sometimes the good kingdom, sometimes simply the kingdom. Here the sun will for ever shine, and all the pious and faithful will live a happy life, which no evil power can disturb, in the eternal fellowship of Ormazd and his angels. Every believer will receive as his guerdon the inexhaustible cow and the gracious gifts of the Vohu maljã. The prophet and his princely patrons will be accorded special honour. ---- == Zarathushtra's Name? == AFAIK the name ''Zarathushtra'' (Avestan Iranian) and ''Zartosht'' (Modern Persian) mean "Having Many Yellow Camels". It ''is'' a Bahuvrihi, but I don't know where the bit about "Old" came in. I don't want to change it without confirmation, but that's all I see in my resources on those languages... the Indic cognate words translate as "yellow" and "camel", too. User:Emilyzilch :no, you are confusing two words, check an Avestan dictionary, and see above, Talk:Zoroaster#Meaning_of_Zarathushtra. Also, if we're going to use Avestan transliteration on the name, it will be ''Zaraθuštra'', not ''Zarathuštra''. I opt for Zarathushtra (Avestan language ''Zaraθuštra''). User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 17:03, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC) :okay, that's why i asked... i didn't write ''Zaraθuštra'' because i hadn't yet located the coding for the ''θ'' character ("theta"), and then once i had wikipedia was down. User:Emilyzilch ==move== ah, man! you moved the page with copy-paste! Wikipedia:How_to_fix_cut_and_paste_moves. Also, you are kindly requested to ''discuss'' page moves beforehand, anyway. I'm moving back. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 17:17, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC) :apologies for that. i appear to have missed a discussion as well about the meaning of his name, so for now i'll shut up. User:Emilyzilch ::sorry if I seemed to jump at you. A move to Zarathushtra is arguable, but I do think Zoroaster is more in line with Wikipedia:Naming conventions. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 16:06, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC) == Iranian/Persian == I'm aware that Iranian and Persian are complex terms with a lot of history and multiple meanings (see Talk:Persia), and I've certainly been known to use them incorrectly. That said, use of these terms in this article seems very inconsistent, and I think that someone who's really familiar with proper use of the two, both as descriptors of ethnicity/nationality and of language, might want to check over any appearances of either word and possibly standardize. --User:Shotput 20:25, 24 May 2005 (UTC) ==Naming and dating convention== IMHO, I think the idea presented by others to convert instances of Zoroaster to Zarathushtra, as well as a move to that article name, is a wise one. And I see that Jguk has been here before, converting any instances of BCE to BC. I suggest that BCE/CE makes much more sense given the subject matter. Thoughts? User:SouthernComfort 11:36, 26 May 2005 (UTC) ::There does not seem to be any consistency about this here, but afik the general rule is that the most common English-language form of the name is to be used. Pace Nietzsche, that's still "Zoroaster". Obviously no-one would seriously propose changing Jesus to "Yehoshua" (or whatever). However, there clearly are more ambiguous cases. I see that Confucius appears under the traditional latinate form of his name, not as "Kung-fu-tzu" or any other transliteration. There is also the fact that the name of the religion is firmly established in English as "Zoroastrianism", not as "Zarathushrianism". The ''Britannica'' also uses "Zoroaster". I much prefer the name Zarathushtra, but the balance of argument seems to favour "Zoroaster". User:Paul Barlow 13:12, 30 May 2005 (UTC) ::addendum: I also see that other ancient Iranian luminaries retain the traditional Western forms of their names. Cyrus does not appear as Khorvash, nor Xerxes as Khshayārsha. I'm sympathetic to your point of view, but I still think we should keep things as they are. However, I agree about BCE/CE.User:Paul Barlow 19:59, 30 May 2005 (UTC) We are writing an English language WP for those who can read English wherever they are in the world. That alone means we should refer to Zoroaster throughout and keep the article page on Zoroaster - that is how he is known in English. We should also keep BC/AD as that is by far the most common date notation throughout the English-speaking world. Kind regards, User:Jguk 20:22, 30 May 2005 (UTC) ==Most commonly-used form== There is a misconception advanced by some advocates that the use of a certain form (like Zoroaster or Zarathustra) indicates some sort of Wiki-endorsement. Nothirg could be further from the truth. It is merely Wikipedia policy to use the most commonly-used form of names, units of measurement, etc. Not because these are the "right" ones, but simply because that's what mose readers expect. If there is a controversy on what the "correct" spelling or correct "dating system" is, then Wikipedia will describe this controversy, but it won't endorse any side. I myself was unaware that Zarathustra and Zoroaster were two variants of ONE person's name. Now I know! Thanks to Wikipedia for this. User:Ed Poor user talk:Ed Poor 04:04, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC) ==Why is the article so sure he existed?== There seems to be a huge range of DOB and of places of birth and a distinct lack of contempory accounts.User:Geni 12:43, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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Zarathushtra (''Zaraθuštra''), usually known in English as Zoroaster after the Greek language version of the name, Ζωροάστρης, was an Iranians prophet and the founder of Zoroastrianism, which was the national religion of Iran from the time of the Achaemenidae to the close of the Sassanian dynasty period. Zoroaster was probably born in the north eastern part of Iran, though there is also a tradition that he came from Balkh in modern day Afghanistan. In Modern Persian the name takes the form of ''Zartošt'' or ''Zardošt'' (زرتشت). Zoroaster is generally accepted as a historical figure, but efforts to date Zoroaster vary widely. Scholarly estimates are usually roughly near 1000 BC. Others however give earlier estimates, making him a candidate as the founder of the earliest religion based on revealed scripture. ==Zoroaster's name== The name ''zaraθ-uštra'' is a Bahuvrihi compound in the Avestan language, of ''zarəta-'' "feeble, old" and ''uštra'' "camel", translating to "having old camels, the one who owns old camels". The first part of the name was formerly commonly translated as "yellow" or "golden", from the Avestan "zaray", giving the meaning "[having] yellow camels". A more romantic, but inaccurate, translation of the name in the past has been "[bringer of the] golden dawn", based on the mistaken assumption that the second part of the name is a variant of the Vedic word "Ushas" meaning "dawn". This last translation seems to have derived from a desire to give a more fitting meaning to the prophet's name than "owner of feeble camels." ==Zoroaster in History== Estimates for the lifetime of Zoroaster vary widely depending on the sources used. * Irann mythology, mainly the ''Shahnama'' of Ferdowsi, and oral tradition place Zoroaster quite early. Manly Palmer Hall in his book, Twelve World Teachers, arrives at rough estimate ranging from 10000 BC to 1000 BC. * Zoroaster was famous in classical antiquity as the founder of the religion of the Magi. His name is cited by Xanthus, and in the ''Alcibiades'' of Plato as well as by Plutarch, Pliny the Elder and Diogenes Laertius. Ancient Greek estimates are dependent on Irann mythology and give dates as early as the 7th millennium BC. These are the dates to which Parsis subscribe.[http://home.btconnect.com/CAIS/first_prophet.htm] [http://web.utk.edu/~persian/monotheism.htm] * Archaeological evidence is usually inconclusive for questions of religion. However, a Russian archaeologist links Zoroaster to ca. 2000 BC based on excavations in Uzbekistan to (Asgarov, 1984). Indo-Iranian religion is generally accepted to have its roots in the 3rd millennium, but Zoroaster himself did already look back on a long religious tradition. * Linguistic analysis of the Gathas, the only texts directly connected with Zoroaster, and comparison with other known Indo-Iranian languages, especially Sanskrit, can only give rough estimates, generally dating Zoroaster to the early 1st millennium BC. 1400–1000 BC is cited by Mary Boyce in her ''A History of Zoroastrianism'' (1989). * The historical approach compares social customs described in the Gathas to what is known of the time and region through other historical studies. Since the Gathas are very cryptic, and open to much interpretation, such a method can also only yield very rough estimates. Gherardo Gnoli gives a date near c. 1000 BC. *The ''Bundahishn'' or ''Creation'', an important text within the religion, cites the time of Zoroaster as 258 years before Alexander the Great conquest of Persia, i.e. 588 BC. *Other scholars have been arguing even later dates, now widely rejected. Darmesteter reports 100 BC; before 458 BC is cited by H.S. Nyberg in ''Die Religionen des Alten Iran'' (1938). ==Life of Zoroaster== What we know of the life of Zoroaster is from the Avesta, the Gathas, the Greek texts, oral history (which is a significant method of teaching in the tradition), and what can be inferred and archeological evidence. The 13th section of the Avesta, the ''Spena Nask'', the description of Zoroaster's life, has perished over the centuries. The biographies in the seventh book of the Denkard (9th century AD) and the ''Shahnama'' are mythic. It is fair to say that Zoroaster lived in the NE area of ancient Iranian territory. The Greeks refer to him as a Bactrian (coming from present day Afghanistan), a Medes or a Persian about 3-5,000 years ago. His wife was named ''Hvōvi'', and they had three daughters, ''Freni'', ''Friti'' and ''Pourucista'', and three sons, ''Isat Vastar'', ''Uruvat-Nara'' and ''Hvare Ciθra''. His mother was Dughdova; his father was ''Pourushaspa Spitāma'', son of ''Haecadaspa Spitāma''. His illumination from Mazda came at age 30. His first converts were his wife and children and a cousin named ''Maidhyoimangha''. The Greek writers recount a few points regarding the childhood of Zoroaster and his hermit-life. According to tradition and ''Pliny's Natural History'' Zoroaster laughed on the day of his birth and lived in the wilderness. He seems to have enjoyed exploring the wilderness from a young age. Plutarch compares him with Lycurgus and Numa Pompilius (''Numa,'' 4). Dio Chrysostom relates Zoroaster's Ahura Mazda to Zeus. Plutarch, drawing partly on Theopompus, speaks of Zoroastrianism in ''Isis and Osiris''. Here he is a mortal, empowered by trust in his God and the protection of his allies. He faces outward opposition and unbelief and inward doubt. These human qualities support a historical Zoroaster, despite a lack of historical detail. The Gathas are poetic admonitions and prophecies, cast in the form of dialogues with God and the Amesha Spentas "Immortals" (Pahlavi ''Amahraspandān''). However, they seem to contain allusions to personal events, overcoming obstacles in life imposed by competing priests and the ruling class. He had difficulty spreading his teachings, and was even treated with ill-will in his mother's hometown (an exceptional insult in his culture and time). It is important to note the differences between the Zoroaster of the later Avesta and the Zoroaster of the Gathas. In the later Avesta, he is depicted wrestling with the ''Deva (Hinduism)'' or "evil immortals" (Pahlavi ''Dēwān''), and, in remarkable prescience of Jesus in the New Testament, is tempted by Ahriman to renounce his faith. (Yasht, 17,19) The historical Zoroaster, however, eludes categorization as a legendary character. The Gathas within the Avesta make claim to be the ''ipsissima verba'' of the prophet. The ''Vendidad'' also gives accounts of the dialogues between Ahura Mazda and Zoroaster. They are the last surviving account of his doctrinal discourses presented at the court of King Hystaspes. ==Placing Zoroaster in a Historical Context== Textual evidence regarding the birthplace of Zoroaster is conflicting. Yasnas 9 & 17 cite Airyanem Vaejah, "Homeland of the ''Aryans''" (Pahlavi ''Ērān Wēj''), on the river Ditya, as the home of Zoroaster, and the scene of his first appearance. The ''Bundahishn'' or ''Creation'' (20, 32 and 24, 15) says the Dhraja River in ''Ērān Wēj'' was his birthplace and the home of his father. This same text identifies ''Ērān Wēj'' with the district of Arran on the river Aras (Araxes) close by the north-western frontier of Medes. According to Yasna 59, 18, the ''zaraθuštrotema'', or supreme head of the Zoroastrian priesthood, had his residence in Ragha at a later (Sassanid dynasty) time. The Iranian Muslim writer Shahrastani endeavours to solve the conflict by arguing that his father was a man of Atropatene, while the mother was from Rai. According to Yasnas 5 & 105, he prayed for the conversion King Hystaspes. He then appears to have left his native district. Yasnas 53 & 9 suggest that he ventured to Rai and was unwelcome. Eventually he met Hystaspes, king of Bactria. In the Gathas he appears as a historical personage. The court of Hystaspes included two brothers, ''Frašaōštra'' and ''Jamaspa''; both were, according to the later legend, vizirs of Hystaspes. Zoroaster was closely related to both: his wife, Hvōvi, was the daughter of Frashaōštra, and the husband of his daughter, ''Pourucista'', was ''Jamaspa''. The actual role of intermediary was played by the pious queen ''Hutaōsa''. Apart from this connection, the new prophet relies especially upon his own kindred (''hvaētuš''). His first disciple, ''Maidhyoimaōngha'', was his cousin; his father was, according to the later Avesta, ''Pourušaspa'', his mother ''Dughdova'', his great-grandfather ''Haēcataspa'', and the ancestor of the whole family Spitama, for which reason Zoroaster usually bears this surname. His sons and daughters are repeatedly mentioned. His death is not mentioned in the Avesta; in the ''Shahnama'', he is said to have been murdered at the altar by the Turanns in the storming of Balkh. Placing the date of King Hystaspes is difficult. Antiquated sources suggest Hystaspes was Hystaspes, father of Darius I of Persia. ''Hutaōsa'' is the same name as Atossa, who apparently was queen consort to Cambyses II, Smerdis and Darius I. The matriarchal name is the only link to the Achaemenidian lineage. According to the ''Arda Wiraf'', Zoroaster taught an estimated 300 years before the invasion of Alexander the Great. Assyrian inscriptions relegate him to a more ancient period. Eduard Meyer (v. ''Ancient Persia'') maintainins that the Zoroastrian religion must have been predominant in Medes, therefore, estimates the date of Zoroaster at 1000 BC, in agreement with Duncker (''Geschichte des Altertums'', 44, 78). Zoroaster may have emanated from the old school of Medesn Magi and appeared first in Medes as the prophet of a new faith, but met with sacerdotal opposition and turned his steps eastward. Zoroastrianism then seems to have acquired a solid footing in eastern Iran, where it continues to survive in dwindling numbers. ==Date of Zoroaster== One of the most important, and dividing, of all issues regarding the Iranian history is “the date of Zoroaster”, that is the date when he lived and composed his Gathas. Different sources ranging from linguistic evidence to textual sources and traditional dates have been used by various scholars to determine the date of Zoroaster. Accordingly, any date from the 6th century BC to 6000 BC has been suggested, although some with more merit than others. Here we shall look at the most prominent of these arguments. A point of view held by many prominent scholars, among them Taghizadeh and W.B.Henning and continued by Gnoli among others, is what is known as “the Traditional Date of Zoroaster”. This date which was suggested in the Sasanian commentaries on the Avesta (Bundahišn), gives the date of Zoroaster’s life as “258 years before Alexander”. However one might want to interpret this statement (whether from the date of Alexander’s entry to Iran or even possibly from what is known as the “Seleucid Era”), the traditional dating would put Zoroaster at 6th century BC. This placement is particularly attractive when one notices that this dating would make Darius and Zoroaster contemporaries of sort, making Darius’ prominent mention of “Ahuramazda” and other Zorostrian motifs quite appropriate. Furthermore, the fact that Zoroaster’s benefactor, Kāvi Wishtaspa, closely reminds us of the name of Darius’ father, Wishtaspa, who was the Satrap of Parthia during the time of Cyrus the Great in the middle of the 6th century BC. According to this view, Zoroaster lived in the court of Darius’ father as the chief clergy and influenced Darius as a young man. It was due to this influence that Darius makes constant mentions of Ahuramāmazdā and other Zoroastrian motifs in his inscriptions. The traditional tale of Zarathushtra's death, being slain by invading “Turan” warriors has also been affiliated with the unrests of Darius’ early years on the throne and the attacks of the rulers of Drangiana and Sogdiana on Bactria. However, from an early time, scholars such as Bartholomea and Christensen noticed the problems with “Traditional Date”, namely the linguistic difficulties that it presents. As we know, Zoroaster himself composed the 18 poems that make-up the oldest parts of the Avesta, known as “the Gathas”. The language of the Gathas, as well as the text known as “Yasna Haptanghaiti” (the Seven Chapter Sermon), is called “Old Avestan” and is significantly different and more archaic than the language of the other parts of the Avesta, “Young Avestan”. On the other hand, Old Avestan is very close to the language of the Rig Veda (known as Vedic Sanskrit). The closeness in composition of Old Avestan and Vedic is so much that some parts of Gathas can be transliterated to Vedic only by following the rules of sound change (such as the development of Indo-Iranian “s” to Avestan “h”). These similarities suggest that Old Avestan and Vedic were very close in time, probably putting Old Avestan at about one century after Vedic. Since the date of the composition of Rig-Veda has been put at somewhere between the 15-12th centuries BC, we can also assume that Gathas were composed close to that time, at sometimes before 1000 BC. Furthermore, a look at the Gathas and their composition shows us that the society in which they were composed was a nomadic society that lived at a time prior to settlement in large urban areas and depended greatly on pastoralism. This would stand sharply apart from the view of a Zoroaster living in the court of an Achaemenid satrap such as Wištaspa. Also, the absence of any mention of Achaemenids or even any West Iranian tribes such as Medes and Persians, or even Parthians, in the Gathas makes it unlikely that historical Zoroaster ever lived in the court of a 6th century Satrap. It is possible that Zoroaster lived sometimes in the 13th to 11th centuries BC, prior to the settlement of Iranian tribes in the central and west of the Iranian Plateau. ==The Gāthās of Zoroastrianism== The teachings of Zoroaster is presented in 17 liturgy, texts, or "hymns", the yasna which is divided into groups called Gathas. If basic precepts of Zoroastrianism are to be distilled into a single maxim, the maxim is ''Humata, Hukhta, Huvarshta'' (Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds). A cosmic struggle between ''Aša'' "The Truth" (Pahlavi ''Ahlāyīh'') and ''Druj'' "The Lie" (Pahlavi ''Druz'') is presented as the foundation of our existence. This is often related to a struggle between ''good'' and ''evil'' in a Western paradigm. This may also be conceptualized as a battle between Darkness and Light. The two opposing forces in this battle are Ahura Mazda (God) and Ahriman (Satan). In the ''yasna''s, Zoroaster refers to these forces as "the Better and the Bad." Zoroaster describes Ahura Mazda in a series of rhetoric questions, "Who established the course of the sun and star? ... who feeds and waters the plants? ... what builder created light and darkness? Through whom does exist dawn, noon and night?" (Yasna 44, 4-6). #''Vohu Manu'', Pahlavi ''Wahman'', "Good Mind": the principle of the good #''Ašəm'', afterwards ''Ašəm Vahištəm'', Pahlavi ''Ardwahišt'': "Right": truth and the embodiment of all that is true, good and right, upright law and rule (ideas practically identical for Zoroaster) #''Xšaθra- Vairya-'', Pahlavi ''Šahrewar'': "Best Rule", the power and kingdom of Ahura Mazda and guardian of metals #''Spɚnta- Ārmatay-'', Pahlavi ''Spandarmad'', "Holy Thought": the female immortal of the earth #''Haurvatat'': "Perfection" #''Amərətatāt'', Pahlavi ''Amurdād'': "Immortality", the guardian of food and plants. Other prominent immortals are Geush Urvan, defender of animals, and ''Sraōša'', Pahlavi Srōš'' "Obedience". ==History and later development== For the great mass of the people, Zoroaster's doctrine was too abstract and spiritualistic. The vulgar fancy requires sensuous, plastic deities, which admit of visible representation; and so the old gods received honour again and new gods won acceptance. They are the angels (Avestan ''yazata'', Pahlavi ''yazdān''). In the later Avesta, we find not only ''Mithra'' but also purely popular divinities such as ''Vərəθraghna'' "Victory", ''Anāhita'' (goddess of the waters), ''Tištrya'' "Sirius" (Pahlavi ''Tištar'') and other heavenly bodies invoked with special preference. The Gathas know nothing of a new belief which afterwards arose in the ''fravashi'', or guardian angels of the faithful. ''Fravashi'' properly means "confession of faith", and when personified comes to be regarded as a protecting spirit. Unbelievers have no ''fravashi''. On the basis of the new teaching arose a widespread priesthood (''aθravano'') that systematized its doctrines, organized and carried on its worship and laid down the minutely elaborated laws for the purifying and keeping clean of soul and body, which are met with in the ''Vendidad''. To these ecclesiastical precepts and expiations belong in particular the numerous ablutions, bodily chastisements, love of truth, beneficial works, support of comrades in the faith, alms, chastity, improvement of the land, arboriculture, breeding of cattle, agriculture, protection of useful animals, as the dog, the destruction of noxious animals, and the prohibition either to burn or to bury the dead. These are to be left on the appointed places or (dakhmas) and exposed to the vultures and wild dogs. In the worship, the drink prepared from the ''Soma'' plant had a prominent place. Worship was devoid of pomp; it was independent of temples. Its centre was the holy fire on the altar. The fire altars afterwards developed into fire temples. In the sanctuary of these temples the various sacrifices and high and low masses were celebrated. As offerings, meat, milk, show-bread, fruits, flowers and consecrated water were used. Priests were the privileged keepers and teachers of religion. They only performed the sacrifices (Herodotus, i. 132), educated the young clergy, imposed the penances; they in person executed the circumstantial ceremonies of purification and exercised a spiritual guardianship and pastoral care of the laymen. Every young believer in Ahura Mazda, after having been received into the religious community by being girt with holy lace, had to choose a confessor and a spiritual guide (''ratu''). Also in eschatology, a change took place. The last things and the end of the world are relegated to the close of a long period of time (3000 years after Zoroaster), when a new ''saōšyant'' (Pahlavi ''sōšyans'') or "savior" will be born from the line of Zoroaster, the dead will return to life and a new incorruptible world will begin. Zoroastrianism was the national religion of Greater Persia, but it was not permanently restricted to the Iranians, being professed by Turanians as well. The worship of the Persian gods spread to Armenia and Cappadocia and over the whole of the Near East (Strabo, xv. 3, 14; xi. 8, 4; 14, 76). Of the Zoroastrian religion under the Achaemenid Dynasty and Aeracides, little is known. After the overthrow of the Achaemenids, a period of decay seems to have set in. Yet the Aeracides and the Indo-Scythian kings as well as the Achaemenids were believers in Ahura Mazda. The national restoration of the Sassanid dynasty brought new life to the Zoroastrianism and long-lasting sway to its clergy. Protected by this dynasty, the priesthood developed into a completely organized state church, which was able to employ the power of the state in enforcing strict compliance with the religious law-book hitherto enjoined by their unaided efforts only. The head of the priesthood, or ''zarathuštrotema'', had his seat at Rai in Medes and was the first person in the state next to the king. The formation of sects was at this period not infrequent (cf. Manichaeism). The Islamic conquest of Iran (636), with the terrible persecutions of the following centuries, led to the gradual decline of Zoroastrianism. In Iran itself, Zoroastrian communities, though a minority, continue to persist despite the odds (primarily centred in Kerman and Yazd). The Parsis in and around Bombay hold by Zoroaster as their prophet and by the ancient religious usages, but their doctrine has reached the stage of a pure monotheism. ==Zoroaster in the West== Zoroaster was known as a sage, magician and miracle-worker in post-Classical Western culture, though almost nothing was known of his ideas until the late eighteenth century. By this time his name was associated with with lost ancient wisdom and was appropriated by Freemasons and other groups who claimed access to such knowledge. He appears in Mozart's opera ''The Magic Flute'' under the variant name "Sarastro", who represents moral order in opposition to the "Queen of the Night". Enlightenment writers such as Voltaire promoted research into Zoroastrianism in the belief that it was a form of rational Deism, preferable to Christianity. With the translation of the Avesta by Abraham Anquetil-Duperron Western scholarship of Zoroastrianism began. In the nineteenth century, the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche used the name of Zarathustra in his seminal book ''Also sprach Zarathustra''. Nietzsche fictionalizes and dramatizes Zarathustra toward his own literary and philosophical aims, presenting him as a returning visionary who repudiates the designation of good and evil and thus marks the observation of the death of God. Nietzsche asserted that he had chosen to put his ideas into the mouth of Zarathustra because the historical prophet had been the first to proclaim the opposition between "good" and "evil", by rejecting the Daeva (representing natural forces) in favour of a moral order represented by the Ahuras. It was this act that Nietzsche proposed to invert. Richard Strauss's Opus 30, inspired by Nietzsche's book, is also called ''Also sprach Zarathustra''. Its opening fanfare (corresponding to the book's prologue) was memorably used to score the opening sequence of Stanley Kubrick's movie ''2001: A Space Odyssey''. ==Bibliography== Boyce, Mary. ''Textual Sources for the Study of Zoroastrianism'', University of Chicago Press, 1984. Gnoli, Gherado. ''Zoroaster in History'', Biennial Yarshater Lecture Series 2, Bibliotheca Persica 2000. Gnoli, Gherardo. "Agathias and the Date of Zoroaster," ''Eran ud Aneran, Festrschrift Marshak'', 2003. http://www.transoxiana.com.ar/Eran/Articles/gnoli.html [http://www.transoxiana.com.ar/Eran/Articles/gnoli.html] Humbach, Helmut. ''The Gathas of Zarathushtra'', Heidelburg, 1991. Shapur Shahbazi, Ali Reza. “The Traditional Date of Zoroaster Explained”, ''BSOAS'', Vol 40, No. 1. London. http://www.azargoshnasp.net/~iran/Din/traditionaldateofzoroaster.pdf [http://www.azargoshnasp.net/~iran/Din/traditionaldateofzoroaster.pdf] ==See also== *List of founders of major religions ==External links== *[http://www.iranologie.com/history/zarathushtra.html Zarathushtra and His Religion] (iranologie.com) *[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0062&layout=&query=id%3Dzoroaster&loc=zoroaster Harry Thurston Peck's entry on Zoroaster, in the ''Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities'' (1898)] *[http://www.crystalinks.com/z.html Zoroaster--Zarathustra, The Persian Prophet] * [http://www.avesta.org/yasna/yasna.htm Zarathushtra's Gathas] (avesta.org) Zoroastrianism Prophets fa:زرتشت nds:Zarathustra
Zoroaster
== Rewrite? == Although this article in its current form contains much valuable information, it seems to me to be wordy and biased. I believe the size limit is 32K, and this one weighs in at around 38K. A few recent edits contained pertinent information, but the article was reverted to an earlier version, because the person who did the reversion felt that the edits had not improved the article. Additional information, clarification and removal of bias by inclusion of multiple points of view are desireable in general, and certainly by Wikipedia standards, so I would like to take a shot at rewriting this article, being careful to maintain all of the information that the original author included, minus the bias and some of the length, and including some of the information that was lost in the reversion, minus the bias and argumentative tone. This topic is of great interest to me, and I've spent considerable time researching when Zarathustra lived and the evolution of Zoroastrianism after his death. --User:dave c :: Is IS wordy and biased, as well as outdated. I'm having a hand at cleaning it up but it's a major piece of work to deal with. I would suggest accessing current scolarship on the subject including Mary Boyce and FEZANA. User:Zosodada 16:18, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) Oh, please, oh please do. I barely managed to get through it, and I find the topic interesting enough research on my time off. Between the incomprehensible attempts at foreign languages and characters (see Greek) and the lack of conciseness, I learned less than expected from this usually top-notch resource. --Terri == Greek == The word "ZajpodtTTpi/s" is presumably a scanning error from attempting to scan Greek letters as English text. Could anyone fix this with the correct spelling (in the Greek alphabet) of the Greek version of the name? I can guess at something like Ζοροαστερ (???) but it's a pure guess based on phonetics: I don't know Greek at all. :Some googling turned up a few instances of Ζωροαστρη in what looks like the genitive. --User:Brion VIBBER 11:32 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC) In that case, the best guess so far is Ζωροαστρ ? I'll put it in the article, as it is at least better than what's there at the moment.... :Aha! Ζωροάστρης[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0062&layout=&query=id%3Dzoroaster&loc=zoroaster]. --User:Brion VIBBER 13:04 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC) Yes! I can now also see how that might OCR as ZajpodtTTpi/s. User:The Anome There are other OCR mangles in here: I guess they will have to wait for someone to go back to a paper or scanned copy of the 1911 EB and type them in. -- User:The Anome 17:48 20 Jul 2003 (UTC) ---- "Zoroastres" does not seem really "corrupt Greek", rather an attempt to translate the "ushtra" (star) into Greek. Is that so? User:Jorge Stolfi 01:57, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC) == NPOV? == "He [Zoroaster] purified it [Persian religion] I from the grossly sensual elements of daëva worship, and uplifted the idea of religion to a higher and purer sphere. The motley body of Aryan folk-belief, when subjected to the unifying thought of a speculative brain, was transformed to a selfcontained theory of the universe and a logical dualistic principle." any talk of a religion 'purifying' a prior culture does kinda seem a little odd. :: Yes, it's odd and biased. "Reforming", however, might be acceptable. I'll attempt to make note of specific reforms if I'm not completely overwhelmed. User:Zosodada 16:21, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) == Very much "NPOV?" == The whole writing style of this entry is florid and overheated, to the point that I've given up on reading it all the way through. Someone needs to replace this entry with one that's about a quarter the length and more matter-of-fact, so that it doesn't sound like a sermon by a true believer. == Zoroaster is the first mouthiest of written history == Some historians believe than in Zoroaster’s original religion, God (Ahuramezd) is the only creator and the Devil (Ahreman) is also a creation of God, who later turned against God. As proof of this some similarities between Islam (and other Abrahamic religions) and Zoroasterism can be mentioned. Among these are 101 names for God (close to 99 in Islam), 4 angles (same as Islam), 5 times prayer (same as Islam) and the description of Heaven and Hell. In fact, the word Jaheem (hell in Farsi) is used as is in the Holy Quran and some orientalists believe Islam is a mixture of Zoroasterism and Judaism, which is of course untrue and the similarities are due to all three (Islam, Judaism and Zoroasterism) coming from the same divine source. :: What is a "mouthiest"? == Meaning of Zarathushtra == Unlike what is suggested, the Ushtra in Zarathushtra does not mean "star". Iranian is not a Semitic language and Ishtar does not play a role in the name of Zarathushtra. Zara- is the Old Iranian form of Modern Persian "zal" meaning 'old, aged'. Ushtra- is the genetive form of Ushtr- (syllabic r), meaning 'camel'! Zarathushtra means "the one who owns old camels". :Even though you are right about "star" not existing in Zarathustra's name, you are making a mistake in thinking that "star" comes from semitic "ishtra-". In fact mid-Persian for "star" is "starak" and in modern persian it is "stara" (corrupted in Tehrani vernacular as "setareh"). sure. but ''zarat'' is not from "golden". You are thinking of ''zaray'' (Sanskrit ''hari'') "golden/yellow/green". User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 12:28, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Behistun?== the first line of the inscription translates to :I (am) Darius, the great king, the king of kings, the king in Persia, the king of countries, the son of Hystaspes, the grandson of Arsames, the Achaemenide. Ahuramazda is mentioned in the inscription, of course, but not Zoroaster. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 12:28, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Thank you for the correction. I stand corrected. I knew it was Ahuramazda that was mentioned in the inscription, I don't know why I thought it was Zarathustra. Anyhow, since there is no evidence that anyone other than Zarathustra introduced the concept of Ahuramazda/Zarathurstrianism, I think we can safely say that "by extention" Zarathustrianism (and thus, Zarathustra) is implied whenever we encounter "Ahuramazada". == "founder of the oldest monotheistic religion." == The article says he's probably the founder of the oldest monotheistic religion, but in "Zoroastrianism", his religion is defined as polytheistic. They're kinda opposite, so...? --User:Menchi 02:46, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC) :it's henotheism, like all early monotheistic religians (including Genesis). But it's not the earliest one anyway. see this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zoroaster&diff=9564490&oldid=9559501] diff, where Zosodada changed the essentially correct statement to what is basically fantasy. I would be glad if someone fixed it. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 09:35, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC) ==essay cut from article== I cut the following essay from the article. Have you ever ''looked'' at the Gathas? They are ''very'' opaque. Every statement you want to make about Zoroaster's views will need some serious backing up and qualification or attribution. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 08:18, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC) ---- As soon as the two separate spirits (cf. Bundahish, I, 4) encounter one another, their creative activity and at the same time their permanent conflict begin. The history of this conflict is the history of the world. A great cleft runs right through the world: all creation divides itself into that which is Ahura's and that which is Ahrirnan's. Not that the two spirits carry on the struggle in person; they leave it to be fought out by their respective creations and creatures which they sent into the field. The field of battle is the present world. In the centre of battle is man: his soul is the object of the war. Man is a creation of Ormazd. who therefore has the right to call him to account. But Ormazd created him free in his determinations and in his actions, wherefore he is accessible to the influences of the evil powers. This freedom of the will is clearly expressed in Yasna, 31, II: "Since thou, O Mazda, didst at the first create our being and our consciences in accordance with thy mind, and didst create our understanding and our life together with the body, and works and words in which man according to his own will can frame his confession, the liar and the truth-speaker alike lay hold of the word, the knowing and the ignorant each after his own heart and understanding. Armaiti searches, following thy spirit, where errors are found." Man takes part in this conflict by all his life and activity in the world. By a true confession of faith, by every good deed, word and thought, by continually keeping pure his body and his soul, he impairs the power of Satan and strengthens the might of goodness, and establishes a claim for reward upon Ormazd; by a false confession, by every evil deed, word and thought and defilement, he increases the evil and renders service to Satan. The life of man falls into two parts — its earthly portion and that which is lived after death is past. The lot assigned to him after death is the result and consequence of his life upon earth. No religion has so clearly grasped the ideas of guilt and of merit. On the works of men here below a strict reckoning will be held in heaven (according to later representations, by Rashnu, the genius of justice, and Mithra). All the thoughts, words and deeds of each are entered in the book of life as separate items — all the evil works, etc., as debts. Wicked actions cannot be undone, but in the heavenly account can be counterbalanced by a surplus of good works. It is only in this sense that an evil deed can be atoned for by a good deed. Of a real remission of sins the old doctrine of Zoroaster knows nothing, whilst the later Zoroastrian Church admits repentance, expiation and remission. After death the soul arrives at the ''chinvat peretu'', or accountant's bridge, over which lies the way to heaven. Here the statement of his life account is made out. If he has a balance of good works in his favour, he passes forthwith into paradise (''Garo dernana'') and the blessed life. If his evil works outweigh his good, he falls finally under the power of Satan, and the pains of hell are his portion for ever. Should the evil and the good be equally balanced, the soul passes into an intermediary stage of existence (the Ham~stakans of the Pahiavi books) and its final lot is not decided until the last judgment. This court of reckoning, the judicium particulare, is called 6/ia. The course of inexorable law cannot be turned aside by any sacrifice or offering, nor yet even by the free grace of God. But man has been smitten with blindness and ignorance: he knows neither the eternal law nor the things which await him after death. He allows himself too easily to be ensnared by the craft of the evil powers who seek to ruin his future existence. He worships and serves false gods, being unable to distinguish between truth and lies. Therefore it is that Ormazd in his grace determined to open the eyes of mankind by sending a prophet to lead them by the right way, the way of salvation. According to later legend (Vd., 2, 1), Ormazd at first wished to entrust this task to Yima (Jemshid), the ideal of an Iranian king. But Yima, the secular man, felt himself unfitted for it and declined it. He contented himself therefore with establishing in his paradise (vara) a heavenly kingdom in miniature, to serve at the same time as a pattern for the heavenly kingdom that was to come. Zoroaster at last, as being a spiritual man, was found fit for the mission. He experienced within himself the inward call to seek the amelioration of mankind and their deliverance from ruin, and regarded this inner impulse, intensified as it was by long, contemplative solitude and by visions, as being the call addressed to him by God Himself. Like Muhammad after him he often speaks of his conversations with God and the archangels. He calls himself most frequently ''manthran'' ("prophet") ''ratu'' ("spiritual authority"), and ''scoshyant'' ("the coming helper" — that is to say, when men come to be judged according to their deeds). The full contents of his dogmatic and ethical teaching we cannot gather from the Gathas. He speaks for the most part only in general references of the divine commands and of good and evil works. Among the former those most inculcated are renunciation of Satan, adoration of Ormazd, purity of soul and body, and care of the cow. We learn little otherwise regarding the practices connected with his doctrines. A ceremonial worship is hardly mentioned. He speaks more in the character of prophet than in that of lawgiver. The contents of the Gathas are essentially eschatological. Revelations concerning the last things and the future lot, whether bliss or woe, of human souls, promises for true believers, threatenings for misbelievers, his firm confidence as to the future triumph of the good — such are the themes continually dwelt on with endless variations. It was not without special reason — so Zoroaster believed — that the calling of a prophet should have taken place precisely when it did. It was, he held, the final appeal of Ormazd to mankind at large. Like John the Baptist and the Apostles of Jesus, Zoroaster also believed that the fullness of time was near, that the kingdom of heaven was at hand. Throurh the whole of the Gathas runs the pious hope that the end of the present world is not far distant. He himself hopes, with his followers, to live to see the decisive turn of things, the dawn of the new and better aeon. Ormazd will summon together all his powers for a final decisive struggle and break the power of evil for ever; by his help the faithful will achieve the victory over their detested enemies, the daëva worshippers, and render them impotent. Thereupon Ormazd will hold a judicium universale, in the form of a general ordeal, a great test of all mankind by fire and molten metal, and will judge strictly according to justice, punish the wicked, and assign to the good the hoped-for reward. Satan will be cast, along with all those who have been delivered over to him to suffer the pains of hell, into the abyss, where he will henceforward lie powerless. Forthwith begins the one undivided kingdom of God in heaven and on earth. This is called, sometimes the good kingdom, sometimes simply the kingdom. Here the sun will for ever shine, and all the pious and faithful will live a happy life, which no evil power can disturb, in the eternal fellowship of Ormazd and his angels. Every believer will receive as his guerdon the inexhaustible cow and the gracious gifts of the Vohu maljã. The prophet and his princely patrons will be accorded special honour. ---- == Zarathushtra's Name? == AFAIK the name ''Zarathushtra'' (Avestan Iranian) and ''Zartosht'' (Modern Persian) mean "Having Many Yellow Camels". It ''is'' a Bahuvrihi, but I don't know where the bit about "Old" came in. I don't want to change it without confirmation, but that's all I see in my resources on those languages... the Indic cognate words translate as "yellow" and "camel", too. User:Emilyzilch :no, you are confusing two words, check an Avestan dictionary, and see above, Talk:Zoroaster#Meaning_of_Zarathushtra. Also, if we're going to use Avestan transliteration on the name, it will be ''Zaraθuštra'', not ''Zarathuštra''. I opt for Zarathushtra (Avestan language ''Zaraθuštra''). User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 17:03, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC) :okay, that's why i asked... i didn't write ''Zaraθuštra'' because i hadn't yet located the coding for the ''θ'' character ("theta"), and then once i had wikipedia was down. User:Emilyzilch ==move== ah, man! you moved the page with copy-paste! Wikipedia:How_to_fix_cut_and_paste_moves. Also, you are kindly requested to ''discuss'' page moves beforehand, anyway. I'm moving back. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 17:17, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC) :apologies for that. i appear to have missed a discussion as well about the meaning of his name, so for now i'll shut up. User:Emilyzilch ::sorry if I seemed to jump at you. A move to Zarathushtra is arguable, but I do think Zoroaster is more in line with Wikipedia:Naming conventions. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 16:06, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC) == Iranian/Persian == I'm aware that Iranian and Persian are complex terms with a lot of history and multiple meanings (see Talk:Persia), and I've certainly been known to use them incorrectly. That said, use of these terms in this article seems very inconsistent, and I think that someone who's really familiar with proper use of the two, both as descriptors of ethnicity/nationality and of language, might want to check over any appearances of either word and possibly standardize. --User:Shotput 20:25, 24 May 2005 (UTC) ==Naming and dating convention== IMHO, I think the idea presented by others to convert instances of Zoroaster to Zarathushtra, as well as a move to that article name, is a wise one. And I see that Jguk has been here before, converting any instances of BCE to BC. I suggest that BCE/CE makes much more sense given the subject matter. Thoughts? User:SouthernComfort 11:36, 26 May 2005 (UTC) ::There does not seem to be any consistency about this here, but afik the general rule is that the most common English-language form of the name is to be used. Pace Nietzsche, that's still "Zoroaster". Obviously no-one would seriously propose changing Jesus to "Yehoshua" (or whatever). However, there clearly are more ambiguous cases. I see that Confucius appears under the traditional latinate form of his name, not as "Kung-fu-tzu" or any other transliteration. There is also the fact that the name of the religion is firmly established in English as "Zoroastrianism", not as "Zarathushrianism". The ''Britannica'' also uses "Zoroaster". I much prefer the name Zarathushtra, but the balance of argument seems to favour "Zoroaster". User:Paul Barlow 13:12, 30 May 2005 (UTC) ::addendum: I also see that other ancient Iranian luminaries retain the traditional Western forms of their names. Cyrus does not appear as Khorvash, nor Xerxes as Khshayārsha. I'm sympathetic to your point of view, but I still think we should keep things as they are. However, I agree about BCE/CE.User:Paul Barlow 19:59, 30 May 2005 (UTC) We are writing an English language WP for those who can read English wherever they are in the world. That alone means we should refer to Zoroaster throughout and keep the article page on Zoroaster - that is how he is known in English. We should also keep BC/AD as that is by far the most common date notation throughout the English-speaking world. Kind regards, User:Jguk 20:22, 30 May 2005 (UTC) ==Most commonly-used form== There is a misconception advanced by some advocates that the use of a certain form (like Zoroaster or Zarathustra) indicates some sort of Wiki-endorsement. Nothirg could be further from the truth. It is merely Wikipedia policy to use the most commonly-used form of names, units of measurement, etc. Not because these are the "right" ones, but simply because that's what mose readers expect. If there is a controversy on what the "correct" spelling or correct "dating system" is, then Wikipedia will describe this controversy, but it won't endorse any side. I myself was unaware that Zarathustra and Zoroaster were two variants of ONE person's name. Now I know! Thanks to Wikipedia for this. User:Ed Poor user talk:Ed Poor 04:04, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC) ==Why is the article so sure he existed?== There seems to be a huge range of DOB and of places of birth and a distinct lack of contempory accounts.User:Geni 12:43, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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