Yugoslavia - meaning of word
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Yugoslavia



Yugoslavia (''Jugoslavija'' in all south Slavic languages) is a term used for three separate but successive political entities that existed during most of the 20th century on the Balkan Peninsula in Europe. Translated, the name means ''Land of the South Slavs'' (''jug'' in the word ''Jugoslavija'' means south). * The first was a Monarchy formed in 1918 as the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, which was re-named the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1929 and existed under that name until it was invaded in 1941 by the Axis powers. * The second was a Socialist state established immediately after World War II in 1945 as ''Democratic Federal Yugoslavia (DFY)'', which in 1946 became the ''Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia (FPRY)'' and in April 7 1963 the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (SFRY). This remained in place until 1992, by which time four of its six constituent republics - Slovenia, Croatia, Republic of Macedonia and Bosnia and Herzegovina - had seceded. * The third was called Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) and was formed in 1992 on the territory of the remaining republics of Serbia (including the autonomous provinces of Vojvodina and of Kosovo, officially known as Kosovo and Metohija) and Montenegro. In 2003, the name Yugoslavia was officially abolished when the state was transformed into a loose commonwealth called Serbia and Montenegro. == Origins == Probably the first "official" mention of the term Yugoslav (as opposed to simply Slavic peoples) was the forming of the group of advocates of a joint country of South Slavs, by politicians from Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, which were then both in the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy. On November 22, 1914, Ante Trumbic, Frano Supilo, Ivan Mestrovic, Hinko Hinkovic and Franko Potocnjak from Croatia and Nikola Stojanovic and Dusan Vasiljevic from Bosnia and Herzegovina first met with Pavle Popovic, a representative of Nikola Pasic's Serbian government, on neutral ground in Florence, Italy, in an effort to coordinate their efforts towards building an independent state of western South Slavs. Lujo Vojnovic was also present as an observer from the Kingdom of Montenegro. The new "Yugoslav" cause (from ''Jugoslav'', meaning "Southern Slav") was receiving an increasing amount of support: in the western states, the people were generally tired of Austria-Hungary and a union with the eastern states was probably seen as the best way to come out of the anomie caused by the World War I. Even the large diasporas, known for their nostalgia and patriotism, started supporting the new idea. The Yugoslav Committee (''Jugoslavenski odbor'') was officially formed on April 30th, 1915 in London, and the aforementioned politicians were its members. The Committee and the Kingdom of Serbia subsequently signed the Corfu Declaration on July 20, 1917 that declared their desire to form a new joint kingdom. == The First Yugoslavia == ''Main article: Kingdom of Yugoslavia'' The goals of the Yugoslav Committee were partly reached by the end of the World War I in 1918, when Austria-Hungary disintegrated, and the South Slavs organized into the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs. This short-lived state soon, on December 1, 1918, joined Serbia and Montenegro to form "The Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes". On June 28 1921, — a day of historical importance to Serbs (see Vidovdan) — parliament (''Skupština'') passed a new constitution despite a boycott from Croatian MPs. The constitution centralized political authority and strengthened the power of the royal government in Belgrade. In 1928, Punisa Racic, an ethnic Serbian nationalist leader from Montenegro, shot and killed Croatian Peasant Party leader Stjepan Radic in the parliament chambers. King Alexander I of Yugoslavia used the shooting as a pretext to strengthen his power and on January 6, 1929 he suspended the constitution, dissolved the ''Skupština'' and proclaimed a royal dictatorship. He went on to reorganize the regional divisions within the country and renamed it the ''Kingdom of Yugoslavia''. All national identities except "Yugoslav" were abolished. Yugoslavia became a highly militarism state, which spawned several insurgent nationalist groups opposed to the royal dictatorship. The king was highly unpopular, particularly among non-Serbs, and while on a visit to Marseille, France in 1934, he was assassinated by VMRO. His son and successor, Peter II of Yugoslavia, was a child, so power fell into the hands of the ineffectual Prince Paul of Yugoslavia, who continued on an authoritarian path with the prime minister Milan Stojadinovic. In the beginning of World War II, Yugoslavia was pressured by Germany and Italy to join the Axis powers. Italy was mired in an inconclusive war with History of Greece, and before Germany committed its forces to the Greek campaign, it wanted to secure Yugoslavia's support. Prince Paul submitted to the fascist pressure and signed the Tripartite Treaty in Vienna on March 25, 1941, hoping to still keep Yugoslavia out of the war. But this was at the expense of popular support for Paul's regency. Senior military officers were also opposed to the treaty and launched a coup d'état when the king returned on March 27. Army General Dusan Simovic seized power, arrested the Vienna delegation, exiled Paul, and ended the regency, giving 17 year old King Peter full powers. Adolf Hitler then decided to attack Yugoslavia on April 6, followed immediately by an invasion of Greece where Mussolini had previously been repelled. (As a result, the launch of Operation Barbarossa was delayed by four weeks, which proved to be a costly decision.) == Yugoslavia during the Second World War == At 05:15 on April 6 1941, Nazi Germany, Italy, Hungary, and Bulgarian forces attacked Yugoslavia. The Luftwaffe bombed Belgrade and other major Yugoslav cities. On April 17, representatives of Yugoslavia's various regions signed an armistice with Germany at Belgrade, ending eleven days of resistance against the invading German Wehrmacht. More than three hundred thousand Yugoslav officers and soldiers were taken prisoner. [[Image:Jasenovac1.jpg|thumb|In the Independent State of Croatia, Serbs, Jews and Gypsies were marched to the Jasenovac concentration camp]] The Axis Powers occupied Yugoslavia and split it up. The Independent State of Croatia was established as a Nazi puppet-state, ruled by the far-right militia Ustashe. Nazi Germany troops occupied part of Serbia and Slovenia, while other parts of the country were occupied by Albania, Bulgaria, Hungary and Italy. Yugoslavs opposing the Nazis organized resistance movements. Those inclined towards supporting the old Kingdom of Yugoslavia joined the Chetniks, a mostly Serb-composed nationalistic royalist guerilla led by colonel Draza Mihailovic. Those inclined towards supporting the Communist Party of Yugoslavia (and against the King) joined the Partisans (Yugoslavia), led by Josip Broz Tito, a Croats member of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia. The NLA initiated a guerrilla campaign which was developed into the largest resistance army in occupied Western and Central Europe. The Chetniks initially made notable incursions and were supported by the exiled royal government as well as the Allies, but soon started to collaborate with axis powers against NLA. After allies realised that Chetniks were helping Germans they ceased to support them. The German response to resistance movement was to punish the civil population by carrying out reprisal killings and by giving a free hand to the quisling forces of the Independent State of Croatia. This led to great civilian loss of life, principally but not exclusively among the Serbs of Bosnia and Croatia, whose populations provided a large portion of rebel formations. The estimated demography loss was 1,700,000 inviduals or 10% of the population of Yugoslavia. During the war, the communism-led partisans (Yugoslavia) were ''de facto'' rulers on the liberated territories, and the NLA organized people's committees to act as civilian government. On November 25, 1942, the AVNOJ was convened in Bihac. The council reconvened on November 29, 1943 in Jajce and established the basis for post-war organisation of the country, establishing a federation (this date was celebrated as Republic Day after the war). The NLA was able to expel the Axis from Serbia in 1944 and the rest of Yugoslavia in 1945. The Red Army aided in liberating Belgrade as well as some other territories, but withdrew after the war was over. Westerner attempts to reunite the partisans, who denied supremacy of the old government of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, and the emigration loyal to the king, led to the Tito-Subasic Agreement in June 1944, however Tito was seen as a national hero by the citizens and so he gained the power in post-war independent communism state, starting as a prime minister. == The Second Yugoslavia == ''Main article: Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia'' [[Image:Prfli.jpg|thumb|200px|Josip Broz Tito led Yugoslavia from the end of World War II until his death in 1980.]] On January 31, 1946 the new Constitution of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia of Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia, modeling the Soviet Union, established six constituent republics and two autonomous province: * Bosnia and Herzegovina, * Croatia, * Republic of Macedonia, * Montenegro, * Serbia and * Slovenia * Vojvodina * Kosovo. The country distanced itself from the Soviets in 1948 (cf. Cominform and Informbiro) and started to build its own way to socialism under strong political leadership of Josip Broz Tito. The country criticized both Eastern and Western block and together with other countries started the Non-Aligned Movement in 1961, which remained the official policy of the country until it dissolved. On April 7, 1963 the nation changed its official name to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Josip Broz Tito was named President for life. In SFRY, each republic and province had its own constitution, supreme court, parliament, president and prime minister. At the top of the Yugoslav government was a collective Presidency, the federal Prime Minister, and the federal Parliament. An important role was one of the president of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia for each republic and province, and the president of presidency of Central Committee of the Communist Party. Josip Broz Tito was the most powerful person in the country, and after him there were republic and province premiers and presidents, plus Communist Party presidents. People whom he did not favor varied greatly. Slobodan Penezić Krčun served under Tito and then after he started to complain about Tito's politics, he was found dead under unknown circumstances. Aleksandar Ranković lost all of his titles and rights after a major disagreement with Tito regarding state politics. Sometimes ministers in government were more important than the premier, such as in the case of Edvard Kardelj or Stane Dolanc. The suppression of national identities escalated with the so-called Croatian Spring of 1970-71, when students in Zagreb organized demonstrations for greater civil liberties and greater Croatian autonomy. The regime stifled the public protest and incarcerated the leaders, but many key Croatian representatives in the Party silently supported this cause, so a new Constitution of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was ratified in 1974 that gave more rights to the individual republics and provinces. According to this constitution, individual republics had a right for self-determination, up to secession, which made later break-up easier. === Breakup === After Tito's death in 1980, ethnic tensions grew in Yugoslavia. Some members of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts drafted a memorandum in the 1980s that opposed the policy of the federation and promoted Serbian nationalism. The Albanians miners in Kosovo organized strikes which dovetailed into ethnic conflict between the Albanian majority and the Serbian minority in the province. Serbian communist leader Slobodan Milosevic, the new strong man of Yugoslavia, tried to play on the revived Serb nationalism, but ended up alienating all the other ethnic groups in the federation. Autonomy of Vojvodina and of Kosovo was reduced, though both entities retained a vote in the Yugoslav Presidency Council. In January 1990, the extraordinary 14th Congress of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia was convened. The Serbian delegation, led by Milošević, insisted on the reversal of 1974 Constitution policy that empowered the republics and rather wanted to introduce a policy of "one person, one vote", which would empower the majority population, the Serbs. This caused the Slovenian and Croatian delegations (led by Milan Kucan and Ivica Racan, respectively), who instead favored more economic liberalization (such as perestroika), to leave the Congress in protest. Following the "fall of Communism" in the rest of Eastern Europe, each of the republics elected a new government democratically, but the unresolved issues remained. In particular, Slovenia and Croatia elected governments oriented towards independence (under Milan Kucan and Franjo Tudjman, respectively), while Serbia and Montenegro elected candidates who favoured Yugoslav unity. In March 1990, the Yugoslav People's Army (Jugoslovenska Narodna Armija, JNA) met with the Presidency of Yugoslavia (an eight member council composed of representatives from six republics and two autonomous provinces) in an attempt to get them to declare a state of emergency which would allow for the army to take control of the country. The representatives of Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo-Metohija, and Vojvodina voted for the decision, while Croatia (Stjepan Mesic), Slovenia (Janez Drnovsek), Macedonia (Vasil Tupurkovski) and Bosnia (Bogic Bogicevic) voted against. The tie delayed an escalation of conflicts, but not for long. Following the first multi-party election results, the republics of Slovenia and Croatia proposed transforming Yugoslavia into a loose confederation of six republics in the Autumn of 1990, however Slobodan Milosevic rejected all such proposals, arguing that all Serbs should live in the same country. Slovenia, Croatia and Macedonia declared independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Bosnia and Herzegovina held a referendum on independence in the same year; this vote was boycotted by the sizeable Serb minority there, which advocated continued union with Yugoslavia. Heavy pro-independence sentiment among Bosnians Muslims and Croats resulted in a Yes vote in the referendum, and the republic's government declared its independence. Secession of the newly-formed states marked the beginning of the bloody Yugoslav wars. These began with a short war in Slovenia and continued with a war in Croatia in 1991 and in Bosnia in 1992. As a result of the conflict, the United Nations Security Council unanimously adopted UN Security Council Resolution 721 on November 27, 1991, which paved the way to the establishment of peacekeeping operations in Yugoslavia. [http://www.nato.int/ifor/un/u911127a.htm] == Federal Republic of Yugoslavia == The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia officially ceased to exist on April 28, 1992, when the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) was formed. Other dates that are frequently considered as the end of SFRY are June 25, 1991, when Slovenia declared independence, October 9, 1991, when the moratorium on Slovenian and Croatian secession, agreed on July 9 at Brioni (see detailed entry at Brioni Agreement) by representatives of all republics, was ended and January 15, 1992, when Slovenia and Croatia were internationally recognized. The war in the western parts of former Yugoslavia ended in 1995 with United States-sponsored peace talks in Dayton, Ohio, with the so-called Dayton Agreement. Starting in 1996, the Albanian organization Kosovo Liberation Army started terrorist actions in the southern Serbian province. The situation worsened, with the Serbian reaction in form of police intervention and similar militia activity, to the point that there was widespread violence and emigration. Following the Racak incident and unsuccessful Rambouillet Agreement in the early months of 1999, NATO proceeded to bombard Serbia and Montenegro for more than two months, until the Milošević government submitted to their demands and withdrew its forces from Kosovo. See Kosovo War for more information. Since June 1999, the province has been governed by peace-keeping forces from NATO and Russia, although all parties continue to recognize it as a part of Serbia. Milošević's rejection of claims of a first-round opposition victory in new elections for the Federal presidency in September 2000 led to mass demonstrations in Belgrade on October 5 and the collapse of the regime's authority. The opposition's candidate, reformed nationalist Vojislav Kostunica took office as Yugoslav president on October 6. On April 1, 2001, Milošević was arrested on charges of abuse of power and corruption. On June 28 he was extradited to the United Nations International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia. His trial on charges of genocide in Bosnia and war crimes in Croatia and in Kosovo and Metohija began at The Hague on February 12, 2002. On April 11, the Yugoslav parliament passed a law allowing extradition of all persons charged with war crimes by the International Criminal Tribunal. In March 2002, the Governments of Serbia and Montenegro agreed to reform FRY in favour of a new, much weaker form of cooperation called Serbia and Montenegro. By order of Yugoslav Federal Parliament on February 4, 2003, Yugoslavia ceased to exist. == Further reading == *Chan, Adrian: ''Free to Choose: A Teacher's Resource and Activity Guide to Revolution and Reform in Eastern Europe''. Stanford, CA: SPICE, 1991. ED 351 248. *Clark, Ramsey: ''NATO in the Balkans: Voices of Opposition''. International Action Center, 1998. *Cohen, Lenard J.: ''Broken Bonds: The Disintegration of Yugoslavia''. Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1993. *Dragnich, Alex N.: ''Serbs and Croats. The Struggle in Yugoslavia''. New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1992. *Gutman, Roy.: ''A Witness to Genocide. The 1993 Pulitzer Prize-winning Dispatches on the "Ethnic Cleansing" of Bosnia''. New York: Macmillan, 1993. *Harris, Judy J.: ''Yugoslavia Today''. Southern Social Studies Journal 16 (Fall 1990): 78-101. EJ 430 520. *Jelavich, Barbara: ''History of the Balkans: Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries'', Volume 1. New York: American Council of Learned Societies, 1983. ED 236 093. *Jelavich, Barbara: ''History of the Balkans: Twentieth Century'', Volume 2. New York: American Council of Learned Societies, 1983. ED 236 094. *Johnstone, Diana: ''Fools’ Crusade: Yugoslavia, NATO, and Western Delusions''. Monthly Review Press, 2002. *Owen, David: ''Balkan Odyssey''. Harcourt (Harvest Book), 1997. *Sacco, Joe: ''Safe Area Gorazde: The War in Eastern Bosnia 1992-1995''. Fantagraphics Books, January, 2002. *Rebecca West: ''Black Lamb and Gray Falcon: A Journey Through Yugoslavia''. Viking, 1941. == Legacy == The present-day countries created from the former parts of Yugoslavia are: * Bosnia and Herzegovina * Croatia * Republic of Macedonia * Serbia and Montenegro * Slovenia The first former Yugoslav republic that joined the European Union was Slovenia which applied in 1996 and became a member in 2004. Croatia applied for membership in 2003, and could join before 2010. Macedonia applied in 2004, and will probably join by 2010-2015. The remaining three republics have yet to apply so their acceptance generally isn't expected before 2015. See also: Enlargement of the European Union ==Miscellaneous== Asteroid 1554 Yugoslavia was discovered by Milorad B. Protitch and named after Yugoslavia. ==See also== *History of the Balkans *History of Europe ==References== * - [http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/yutoc.html Yugoslavia] == External links == *[http://www.ericdigests.org/1995-2/bosnia.htm Teaching about Conflict and Crisis in the Former Yugoslavia] *[http://www.vojska.net Vojska.net - covering wars in former Yugoslavia] *[http://www.ohr.int/ohr-info/maps/ Maps] *[http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/politics/ War in former Yugoslavia] (pictures of the hidden side of the war that nobody wants to show, etc.) *[http://www.slobodnajugoslavija.com/ slobodna jugoslavija] Yugoslavia Former countries lv:Dienvidslāvija

Yugoslavia



==Talk prior to Yugoslav articles revamp== Does anyone know ''when'' the name is supposed to change. I notice that the government website (http://www.gov.yu) still calls it the ''Federal Republic of Yugoslavia''. --user:Zundark, Friday, April 5, 2002 :The parliaments of both republics still have to vote on it ([http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2002/04/03042002085657.asp see vague link]). I have no idea when it's supposed to take effect once (if) approved, though. ...... Ah, I found the [http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1874000/1874523.stm text of the agreement]; if ratified, Serbia and Montenegro are required to "effect changes in their constitutions in accordance with the Constitutional Charter of Serbia and Montenegro or adopt new constitutions by no later than the end of 2002." How that affects precicely when the name is supposed to change, isn't terribly clear. user:Brion VIBBER ::At what point should we move the related pages to whatever of Serbia and Montenegro? User:Koyaanis Qatsi 20:54 Sep 6, 2002 (UCT) :There already is a page Serbia and Montenegro! - John 16:35 Feb 4, 2003 ---- There are several dates that people take as the end of SFRJ. One is Jun 25, 1991, when Slovenia secedeed, one is October 9, 1991 when the moratorium on Slovenian and Croatian secession was ended, one is April 28, 1992, (IIRC) when the Federal republic of Yugoslavia was formed and thus no government used the name "SFRJ" any more. But anyway, I think this is discussed elsewhere and doesn't really need mentioning here. User:Zocky 21:52 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC) ---- First of all, IIRC, FRY will cease to exist when the new parliament is constituted, so the end-date might be wrong again. But, this page looks all wrong now. Yugoslavia is not or will not be a country anymore, so this page shouldn't be about FRY. It should be about the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Should they all get their own pages with a summary here? Or should they all be merged? Oh, and the page Serbia and Montenegro/History is of course not a history of "Serbia and Montenegro" but rather a history of Yugoslavia. User:Zocky 20:49 Feb 5, 2003 (UTC) Oh wait... Serbia and Montenegro/History is a redirect. It's ok for now then. :What a mess. One country was established in 1918 to be cancelled in 2003. I think we do not need three independent articles. Slovenia, Croatia and other former Yugoslav republics were as much Yugoslavia as Serbia and Montenegro were. But since the country with the name Yugoslavia will stop existing, we can't predict in full what will be in the future. There is 30 days delay from the beginning of 2003 February to decide wheather Yugoslavia will definitely stop to exist. And there will also be a 3 years period for two states, Serbia and Montenegro, to decide if they will remain in the formation of a state with the name Serbia and Montenegro. As Serbian nationalist Vojislav Sešelj from the SRS recently said that Yugoslavia was the biggest mistake for Serbia in its history. But from the period 1918-2003 there was plenty of time to learn something from. But anyway regardless Sešelj we may say that Yugoslavia from 1945 to 1991 was well formed as a state, if we look at it as a modern country. But the national differences among almost brotherlike nations have prevailed. There are many similar examples in the world (to think on some e.g. India / Pakistan; Ethiopia / Eritrea; Russia / Belarus ....). It is already a time to abandon such lucrative mediaeval coalitions of any kind. What hurts me, as a former Yugoslav citizen, is for instance that the country was kicked out of the Non-Aligned Movement, as it was so apparently stable and an example of stability and peaceableness; and because of so much ethnic cleansing and bunch of semi-civil wars in it. And, not lastly, let Stevie Wonder sing Bob Dylan's: ''the answer, my friend, is ...'' I can't believe in the end that these are just games of the superpowers. ''Every nation got a right to decide its own destiny...'' in Bob Marley's words. --User:XJamRastafire 17:18 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC) ---- Here's what I think should be done for the articles on "Yugoslavia": There should be an article on the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (the state that lasted from 1918-1929) and it's leaders and history, etc. This current Yugolavia article should be about the Kingdom that lasted from 1929-1945 . The Postwar state that existed from 1945-1992 should be in an article titled Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or SFRY. The state that existed from 1992-2003 that was formed after the breakaway of Bosnia, Slovenia, Croatia, and FYROM should be placed in article titled Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or FRY. The Union that came into force in 2003 should be on a page devoted to Serbia and Montenegro. As it stands now, this article needs serious work! -user:Hoshie :I agree that there should be, if not separate articles, then distinct sections of this article, though I think that article on History of Yugoslavia should cover all Yugoslavias as their histories are interconected. I'll deal with this, once :) User:Nikola Smolenski 07:27 24 Jun 2003 (UTC) :Definitely separate articles, but I propose this structure: ::* Yugoslavia: A general article, 1918-2003 :::* Kingdom of Yugoslavia - Article on the kingdom 1918-1941 ::::* Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes should just contain: ''the name of Kingdom of Yugoslavia from 1918 to 1929'' :::* Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia- article on the republic, 1945-1991 ::::* Democratic Federal Yugoslavia - ''the name of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia from 1945 to 1946'' ::::* Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia - ''the name of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia from 1946 to 1963'' :::* Federal Republic of Yugoslavia - article on FRY from 1991 to 2003 ::* Serbia and Montenegro - the new state : Any thoughts? :User:Zocky 17:35 28 Jun 2003 (UTC) ---- This article is currently not just about the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. It mentions Tito, etc. If the intention is just to talk about the Federal republic, then it should start from 1992. I think it should give an overview of all the Yugoslavias and link to them. --User:Jiang 20:22, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC) : Umm, yes. As I told you on my talk page, FRY and SCG are different names for one same state and everything to be said on FRY should be said in SCG article. Basically, this article should be moved there with removing things that you noticed (they should be moved to History of Yugoslavia if not already there). That is completely different question then format of disambiguation though. BTW, I still think that History of Yugoslavia should cover all three. User:Nikola Smolenski 22:09, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC) Dont call the SCG FRY. That's just confusing. This, and History of Yugoslavia, should be on all entities that were ever Yugoslavia. : One might like it or not, but SCG is FRY. This should be on all entities that were ever ''called'' Yugoslavia. User:Nikola Smolenski 04:22, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC) ::No, when SCG existed, there was no FRY. It may be the same entity, but it should be called for what it was. ::: Just now noticed this. Shouldn't it be called for what it ''is''? User:Nikola Smolenski 07:03, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC) :: Articles about fighting the british during the American Revolution link to Kingdom of Great Britain, not the United Kingdom. Articles on British imperialism in the 19th century link to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. ::: Of course not, but SCG ''was'' called FRY. There is more difference between Kingdom of Great Britain and United Kingdom then just name change. Not so in this case. Of course, article about Warsaw pact should link to SFRY. But it would be ridiculous for article on Kosovo War to link to FRY (unless FRY isn't just a redirect to SCG). User:Nikola Smolenski 06:27, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC) ::We might as well treat this as a defunct entity like the Soviet Union. --User:Jiang 04:54, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC) ::: Soviet Union a defunct entity? User:Nikola Smolenski 06:27, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC) ---- Yugoslavia is term casually used for any of following political entities: * Kingdom of Yugoslavia was a kingdom, formed in 1918 under name Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes; in 1929 it changed name to Kingdom of Yugoslavia and it existed under that name until it was dismantled in 1941 by Nazi Germany. * Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was a communism state, formed in 1945 under name Democratic Federal Yugoslavia; in 1946 it changed name to '''Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia and in 1963 to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia''', under which it existed until 1992 when its constituent republics Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and FYROM separated and... * Serbia and Montenegro was formed, under name Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; in 2003 it changed name to Serbia and Montenegro. I think "first one, second one, third one" is a bit awkward and confusing. We should skip the bullet point listing altogether and instead have this revealed in the introduction: : Then how about "First Yugoslavia, Second Yugoslavia, Third Yugoslavia"? You probably haven't read on my User_talk:NIkola Smolenski, but the terms are established in English language: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22first+yugoslavia%22 Yugoslavia existed as a country in southeastern Europe from November 29, 1943 to February 4, 2003. Yugoslavia formed in 1918 as the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, renamed the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1929 and lasted until it was invaded by Italy (is this right?) in 1941. After the World War II it became a communist state, under the names Democratic Federal Yugoslavia from 1945 to 1946, Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia from 1946 to 1963, and Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia from 1963 to 1992.... : This claims that there is one country that was named Yugoslavia, but there never was. Yugoslavia is informal name for various countries. There is much more continuity between SCG and FRY then between FRY and SFRY or kingdom and republic. Further, constitution of 2003 is just a legalisation of factual state of affairs between Serbia and Montenegro that existed before 2003. And lastly, what is going to be different in articles on FRY and SCG? :)) : Kingdom of Yugoslavia was invaded by Italy, Germany, Hungary and Bulgaria, I'm not sure for Albania. ::Please reword as you see fit. --User:Jiang This article should be on all entities named Yugoslavia. Serbia and Montenegro is under a new constitution and is not the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. This need to be made clear. It was not a simple name change. : And how is this made clear? It's not even mentioned in the article. And Serbia and Montenegro W A S N A M E D Yugoslavia. Not now, but it was. It was not a simple name change, it was a constitutional change as well (I think that some of former name changes were also constitutional changes), perhaps that should be mentioned. But then, we are not going to have articles on Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia prior to constitution of 1974, Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia between constitutions of 1974 and 1990, Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia after constitution of 1990, aren't we? ::I said it should be clear. Not that it's already clear.--User:Jiang ::: Oh. sorry. I thought you are suggesting a definitive suggestion. I'm thinking that the individual names of the various political entities can be made into a History of Yugoslavia series. --User:Jiang 22:43, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC) --User:Jiang 22:43, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)~ : Aren't they already? But that doesn't solve our problem. User:Nikola Smolenski 05:33, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC) Let's look at how other encylopedias deal with this. This is from the Encarta encylopedia: ''Yugoslavia, former country in southeastern Europe, on the Balkan Peninsula. The country existed from 1918 to 1941, when German-led Axis forces invaded and dismembered it during World War II. It was reestablished in 1945, but in 1991 political and ethnic conflicts led to its second disintegration. In the first period, Yugoslavia was a kingdom. In the second period, it was a federation consisting of six republics: Bosnia and Herzegovina (often referred to simply as Bosnia), Croatia, Macedonia (see Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), Montenegro, Serbia, and Slovenia. In addition, two autonomous provinces existed within the republic of Serbia: Vojvodina and Kosovo. Belgrade was the federal capital. ''Yugoslavia, meaning “land of the South Slavs,” was created as a constitutional monarchy at the end of World War I (1914-1918). It was known as the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes until 1929, when it was renamed Yugoslavia. The kingdom was destroyed and divided by Axis invasion and occupation in 1941. At the end of World War II (1939-1945), Yugoslavia was recreated as a federal republic by the Partisans, a Communist-led, anti-Axis resistance movement. Under Josip Broz Tito, founder and leader of the Partisans, Yugoslavia emerged as a faithful copy of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), with a dictatorial central government and a state-controlled economy. Tito broke with the USSR in 1948, and he decentralized the Yugoslav government and gradually eased repression. Economically, the government experimented with looser controls under the labels of workers’ self-management and market socialism. Yugoslavia was unique among Communist countries in its relatively open and free society and its international role as a leader of nonaligned nations during the Cold War. ''Following Tito’s death in 1980, ten years of economic crisis and growing political and ethnic conflicts led to the federation’s disintegration in 1991 and 1992. The breakup was bloody, resulting in civil wars in two successor states, Croatia and Bosnia. Serbia’s leadership, which tried to preserve the federation and then to extend the republic’s boundaries to create a Greater Serbia, was involved in both civil wars. Together with Montenegro, Serbia formed what its leaders claimed to be the successor state to Yugoslavia, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now called Serbia and Montenegro).'' --User:Jiang 05:52, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC) : Well, it is totally wrong about separation wars, but it acknowledges that SCG is FRY. Yugoslavia is term casually used for any of following political entities: * Kingdom of Yugoslavia was a kingdom, formed in 1918 under name Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes; in 1929 it changed name to Kingdom of Yugoslavia and it existed under that name until it was invaded in 1941 by Axis powers. * Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was a communism state, formed in 1945 under name Democratic Federal Yugoslavia; in 1946 it changed name to '''Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia and in 1963 to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia''', under which it existed until 1992 when its constituent republics Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and FYROM separated and... * Serbia and Montenegro was formed, a federation named Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; in 2003 the state remade its internal structure into a loose commonwealth and changed name to Serbia and Montenegro. : Or, if you prefer to look at them as one country (but other people will object, I'm telling you): Yugoslavia is term casually used for a country that was formed in 1918, as a kingdom, under name Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, in 1929 changed name to Kingdom of Yugoslavia and existed under that name until it was invaded in 1941 by Axis powers, after which, after Second World War was over, in 1945 a communism state was established under name Democratic Federal Yugoslavia, which in 1946 changed name to '''Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia''' and in 1963 to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, under which name it existed until 1992 when its constituent republics Slovenia, Croatia, FYROM and Bosnia-Herzegovina separated and a federation named Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was formed, which in 2003 remade its internal structure into a loose commonwealth and changed name to Serbia and Montenegro. : Did I mention before that I love long sentences? :) : And to make one thing clear: is FRY successor to SFRY is a subject of debate. But there is no doubt that the term 'Yugoslavia' is used for FRY, and the above sentence makes no assumptions on wheter it is a successor or not. User:Nikola Smolenski 07:38, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC) To avoid refering them to one country and having a long sentence, how's: ''Yugoslavia is term casually used for three separate political entities. The first was a Monarchy formed in 1918 under name Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, whose name changed name to the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1929 and existed under that name until it was invaded in 1941 by Axis powers. The second was a Communist state established immediately after World War II in 1945 under the name Democratic Federal Yugoslavia, which in 1946 changed its name to the '''Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia and again in 1963 to the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, under which it existed until 1992 when its constituent republics Slovenia, Croatia, Republic of Macedonia and Bosnia-Herzegovina separated. As a result a federation named Federal Republic of Yugoslavia''' was formed between the remaining republics of Serbia and Montenegro, which in 2003 remade its internal structure into a loose commonwealth and changed its name to Serbia and Montenegro.'' : Fine with me. I just linked kingdom. User:Nikola Smolenski 19:29, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC) Please explain what you mean by "don't change this to Republic of Macedonia as "Republic of" isn't used for other republics". What's wrong with "Republic of" and what right about "Former Yugoslav Republic of"? Let's go by its constitutional name, as agreed upon in Talk:Republic of Macedonia. "Republic of" is necessary to disambiguate it from the greater Macedonia region. --User:Jiang 07:49, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC) : Well, imagine that it was the only republic that broke away. The sentence would be: "...it existed until 1992 when its constituent republic Republic of Macedonia broke away." A bit silly, no? :) (At least here) it is not a problem but a matter of style: it is already said that these are republics of former Yugoslavia so it is already disambiguated. OTOH, if formal name is used for one of them, it should be used for all of them, and these are all "Republic of" (except BiH i think): "...it existed until 1992 when its constituent republics Republic of Slovenia, Republic of Croatia, Republic of Macedonia and Bosnia-Herzegovina separated. Now that IS silly :)) If you still think that it should go as you said, OK. User:Nikola Smolenski 19:29, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC) ::If you think it's redundant, how's Republic of Macedonia. FYROM is a bad link which just redirects to Republic of Macedonia. However, with this, we risk being POV and offending the Greeks. I assume it is okay in this situation for the reasons you have mentioned--the sentence already states that it is a "constituent republic." We put in "Republic of" when it is necessary to disambiguate. You should see that People's Republic of China, Republic of China, and Republic of Ireland do not usually appear on wiki in their shortened form, when referring to the modern political entity, for clarity and NPOV sake. --User:Jiang 19:57, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC) ::: I just typed FYROM because it's shorter to type. I don't think it matters whether something links to a redirect or to main page if link text is same. ::: Watch Kingdom of Yugoslavia for explanation on Vardarska Banovina :) User:Nikola Smolenski 20:10, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC) FYROM is not Macedonia. This is Serb Province Vardarska Banovina(Province) See map: http://forum.smartnet.ba/Forum5/HTML/000389-1.html Makedon,Thessaloniki 15.08.2003 ---- Now what should we do with the articles for the individual Yugoslav states (e.g. Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Democratic Federal Yugoslavia)? Give them all separate articles, have them all redirect here, or give each political entity one article? The problem with giving each political entity an article is that only one of those titles can be adopted. When we look at defunct entities, we look at the entire entity as a whole, not at a single point in time (i.e., the present). Therefore, it is inappropriate to endorse only one of those titles. What should happen here? : I'd give each one separate article. I'll write something about their internal structures for start, I think that you'll see that even that couldn't be easily joined. As for title, we could adopt the last title, that's what we would do for an existing country. Other titles would then redirect to it. ::You mean for each political entity only? Why not a new article for each name? We shouldnt treat defunct entities as existing countries. --User:Jiang 02:48, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC) ::: Yes. If there is separate article for each name, how would that articles differ from each other? See Kingdom of Yugoslavia for what I have in mind. You'r right we shouldn't treat them wholly as existing countries but we could just for naming. User:Nikola Smolenski 10:31, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC) ::::Okay, looks good to me. It seems like the only way around it. Just have the other kingdom name redirect there. --User:Jiang 16:47, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC) ::::: I've started both kingdom and socialist, now it only remains to be seen what to do with rest of Yugoslavia. User:Nikola Smolenski 18:03, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC) Maps showing the various Yugoslavias would be helpful. What is the purpose of this page? Why not merge with history of yugoslavia? --User:Jiang 00:20, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC) : I have no idea how to get PD maps. And the purpose, well... a glorified disambiguation page? :) Also, what should be done with Transportation in Yugoslavia and other pages? Should they be deleted, redirected to SCG, redirected to Yugoslavia? User:Nikola Smolenski 02:39, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC) ::They currently redirect to those of Serbia and Montenegro (I moved them there.) Let's just keep them that way for now. Maybe not everyone is aware of the name change. --User:Jiang 02:48, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC) I think this should be merged with History of Yugoslavia or we can put in a full blown country template incorporating this: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/yutoc.html. But since there were different Yugoslavias, that probably belongs at Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. --User:Jiang 21:56, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC) ==Regarding disambiguation notices== I deleted the following. Does it really belong on this page? :''This is NOT a Wikipedia:Disambiguation page; that is, one that just points to other pages that might otherwise have the same name. But anyway, some links that point here should rather point to the appropriate specific page, so if you followed such a link here, you might want to go back and fix that link.'' User:RickK 00:27, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC) :I dont think it does. --User:Jiang The above text is cumbersome. Romanm now added the generic disambig notice, but it doesn't really fit either. Even after we eliminate all the ambiguous links, there will still remain a substantial amount of links to this page because there are things that refer to both (or even all three). --User:Shallot 16:03, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC) : Do you propose that we should remove the disambig notice? IMHO this article is still more or less disambiguation: all three Yugoslavia's had different territory and different political system. :: No, but it should have a non-generic phrasing, because the generic one implies that /no/ pages should link to a page that includes it. --User:Shallot : The only confusion I can think of is links to this page during the Second World War - should we treat links to the Yugoslav territory in context of Kingdom of Yugoslavia or in the context of post-war SFRY? --User:Romanm 20:24, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC) :: Neither, really, that sounds like another link that can be left pointing to this page. --User:Shallot == DA page == This shouldn't really be a disambiguation page. When we refer to the "Former Yugoslavia", we're not just referring the Socialist Federal Republic but the Federal People's Republic. History is not a snapshot. Let's move History of Yugoslavia here. I don't see why it belongs separately. --User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 06:09, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC) : User:Jiang, what exactly do you mean? Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia are already on the same page! : If you mean that Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (ie. Serbia and Montenegro) should be on the same page as Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Kingdom of Yugoslavia then I strongly dissagree. The new formed FRY is not the same country and not the only legal successor of it; as the Badinter Commission pointed out the common country ''dissolved'' in 1992. Of course the parts of it may still bear the name "Yugoslavia" if they choose so, but it is not the same country. --User:Romanm 06:58, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::FRY is the only successor of SFRY, which has not dissolved but whose constituent republics have separated one by one. The fact that there is the opposite opinion is why this page was created in the first place - otherwise it would be just a redirect to Serbia and Montenegro. User:Nikola Smolenski 07:44, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::: Regardless of the pre/post-1991 issues, the page Yugoslavia could still have a disambiguation character because of the kingdom, and because most references are actually to the phrase "former Yugoslavia". --User:Shallot 10:21, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC) Then what do we mean by "Former Yugoslavia"? What if the situation's ambiguous? Do you object to moving History of Yugoslavia to this page? --User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 07:53, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC) : Though, logically, each of the three could be referred to as "Former Yugoslavia", AFAIK the term is used almost exclusively for the SFRY. User:Nikola Smolenski 07:04, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC) : The meaning of "former Yugoslavia" can be ambiguous, yes. However, I don't think that there's much point in replacing this summary page with the long history page because that would deter many readers from easily understanding that there was more than a single one of them. Maybe now that we've got sections in the history page the summary page can provide better links into the history page. --User:Shallot 10:21, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::If it's made clear in the first sentence that they were separate entities and we bold their names in the introduction, I don't see the confusion. This is not a "summary page". It is a disambiguation page with a gazillion links pointing to it. That's a bad idea, especially when we have ambiguous cases. The history page is really a summary (it fits on one page). Moving the content over here would make this an overview. --User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 10:46, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::I don't see a reason for not having a summary of history on this page. I dont think that entire History of Yugoslavia should be here, but a summary of it, saying that the main article is History of Yugoslavia could be acceptable. Of course, we can't have the infobox, geography, politics or other sections usual for countries, but there could be history. But it shouldn't replace the introductory paragraph. User:Nikola Smolenski 07:04, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::The content of History of Yugoslavia fits on one page, so I don't see why not. It won't replace the current introduction - only tacked below it. We'll have more detailed history articles at History of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, History of Communist Yugoslavia, etc. so "History of Yugoslavia" itself will be the summary. We don't need two summaries... --User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 08:02, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::One page??? It's eight screens long! (On my screen.) On all country pages I've seen, summary of history usally fits on one screen. There are a lot of cases with two summaries: Russia#History is a summary of History of Russia which itself is a summary of 11 articles, some of which are also summaries. User:Nikola Smolenski 09:37, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::It's well under 32kB. The point of having a summary of the history is to leave room for other subjects (economy, politics, etc.). Russia#History/History of Russia is redunant, but that way because it is impossible to cross-post content. [History of Russia] was the original detailed version but got longer and had to be split. ::What else (other than the history) do you envision to fit on this page? --User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 12:05, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::I don't. I envision only the summary of history. User:Nikola Smolenski 17:52, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::Then what? --User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 01:45, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::I don't understand this. User:Nikola Smolenski 07:26, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::Sorry, misread your last comment. If we just have the history, then there's no point in having two summaries. We no longer need room for other subjects. All we care is that everything is under 32kB, which it will be. --User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 08:08, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::Well, my bottom line(s): this page is just a bit more then a disambiguation page. I don't think it should become much longer. It is common practice to have a one-paragraph summary of history on country articles and I don't see why this article would be different just because it doesn't have geography or economy as well. History of Yugoslavia is linked as such from several articles and people expect to read about history of Yugoslavia when they get there, not this introductory paragraph. In the same way, people who come to this page expect to see what a country it is, should click on appropriate exit and in general don't care about history enough to read it all. So far there are no two summaries and probably there won't be for many moons; but even if there are more summaries, I don't see what is wrong with that. Bottom line of the bottom line: As far as I am concerned, this article could have no history at all, or it could have a short summary, both are fine with me. I wouldn't revert if someone copy-pastes history here but I wouldn't like it. :::By the way, what others think about this? User:Nikola Smolenski 06:26, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::[History of Yugoslavia] speaks of Yugoslavia in its entirety. This article should be a general historical overview of the Yugoslavia in its entirety. Many of the links to [History of Yugoslavia] refer to a specific era. We should treat ''that'' as an disambiguation and change links there to be more specific. If history of Yugoslavia redirected here, wouldnt people get the same deal? People coming here should be forced into reading history. They cannot ignore history or avoid it because Yugoslavia is a defunct state so everything about it is inherently historical. I don't know what else there is to say about Yugoslavia. --User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 23:33, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC) User:Nikola Smolenski, the opinion you stated above is not generally accepted in the world. United Nations says this about the issue (see [http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html]): : ''The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was an original Member of the United Nations, the Charter having been signed on its behalf on 26 June 1945 and ratified 19 October 1945, until its dissolution following the establishment and subsequent admission as new members of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Croatia, the Republic of Slovenia, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.'' This was also the conclusion of the Badinter Commission. --User:Romanm 07:59, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC) : The UN was a hostile entity towards FRY generally, and conclusions of Badinter Commision were likewise influenced by political reasons. User:Nikola Smolenski 08:05, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC) == Restructure again? == I know I was the one who came up with the idea of separating the articles, but I think that dissambiguing links is going to far. First of all, the Kingdom and SFRY were not two distinct political entities. The kingdom was superceded by DFY, FPRY and then SFRY, but it was still the same country. Compare it to the French 1st and 2nd kingdom, 1st and 2nd Empire, not to mention the 1st-5th republic. Should they all have articles? Sure. Should every link to France be disambiguated among them? Definitely not. :A problem with this idea is that SFRY was superceded by FRY. And even if you argue that FRY is not the continuation of SFRY, you can't argue that FRY wasn't called "Yugoslavia", just as SFRY was. User:Nikola Smolenski : User:Zocky, I have to disagree with you. Kingdom of Yugoslavia was a unitarian dynastic monarchy while Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was a fully federal state with national republics who already had elements of independent countries. Compare Russian Empire and Soviet Union, for example. And I have to agree with User:Nikola Smolenski that FRY can also be called Yugoslavia if it choose so (not that this means that it is a ''continuation'' of SFRY, though - likewise use of name "Macedonia" doesn't mean that Republic of Macedonia is seen as a continuation of Alexander the Great's Macedon, for example). --User:Romanm 22:21, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC) :: AOL. --User:Shallot Also, I'm starting to think that grouping Kingdom of SHS and Kingdom of Yugoslavia under Kingdom of Yugoslavia and FDY, FPRY and SFRY under Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is arbitrary and misleading (mea culpa). OTOH, we need a grouping of history articles separate from the name changes, because changes in 1929, 1946 and 1963 didn't really make much difference. :They didn't, but neither of them has its own article. But the changes in name, population, teritorry, political system and whatnot in 1941-5 made a lot of difference, hence two articles. User:Nikola Smolenski :: AOL. --User:Shallot ::Again I agree with Nikola and Shallot at this point. Pre-war Yugoslavia (choose period) was not the same as the post-war Yugoslavia. --User:Romanm 22:21, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::Hmm... The claim that SFRY was not the same country as the Kingdom is very questionable. It was much different, but it was formally the same country, as accepted by WWII allies, UN, SFRY and now the successor states. Also, the flag, the capital, the money were kept, the territory was largely unchanged. Partizans' official position was defending Yugoslavia, not replacing it. ::::The political system of SFRY and the Kingdom was so different that it can hardly be said that it was the same country, although there were some elements that could support this point of view - Western sponsored Tito-Subasic Agreement in 1944 and post-war referendum on political system comes to mind. But the same could be said for the Soviet Union and Tsar Russia - they shared almost the same territory, but were entirely different from a political system POV. IMHO the SFRY was a ''legal successor'' of Kingdom of Yugoslavia, but not the same country. Do we have some professional historians here, by any chance? --User:Romanm 23:42, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::::Successor or not, it was different enough to warrant own article, just as Soviet Union and Russia do. User:Nikola Smolenski 06:08, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::OTOH, there's no doubt that FRY is the same country as Serbia and Montenegro. It should definitely be linked from here, maybe even dissambiged, but it should really be treated as an alternative name for Serbia and Montenegro. User:Zocky 22:03, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) So what to do? First of all, most links should go to Yugoslavia. Here's also my updated proposal for structuring of articles. Alternative suggestions for names of articles welcome. Some kind of consensus would be nice before anybody moves anything. :Most of it (except history) is unapplicable because of teritorrial difference between FRY and SFRY. User:Nikola Smolenski 17:58, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC) : You might find it surprising, but in the majority of cases (plurality at least) the links can actually be disambiguated into the kingdom, the socialist state, and the post-socialist state, they do not have to go to the general Yugoslavia page. Romanm and myself have been at this for months and it's generally workable, it just requires man-hours. I suggest you try it, it's an informative exercise... :) --User:Shallot 18:19, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC) :: It's not a question of whether it's possible, but of whether it's a good thing. In most areas other than economy, political system and military, the distinction is unnecessary. User:Zocky 22:03, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) *Yugoslavia: A full defunct-country article, possibly with two country boxes for the Kingdom and the Republic, since much of the data will be different. **History of Yugoslavia: A summary and links to the following articles. All these should be interlinked with relevant history articles of successor and other countries. ***History of Yugoslavia (before 1918) or History of South Slavic lands before 1918 or History of Yugoslavia (prologue): an overview of history of the lands, settling of Slavs, foreign rule, Pan-Slavism, World War I, etc. ***History of Yugoslavia (1918-1941): Unification, Carinthian referendum, election, banning of the communist party, unitarism, labour movement, murder in the parliament, dictatorship, assassination, rise of fascism, internal tensions, Croatian banovina. ***History of Yugoslavia (1941-1945): Triple axis pact, the coup, the occupation, resistance, concentration camps, battles, collaboration, revolution, retribution, etc. etc. ***History of Yugoslavia (1945-1980): Referendum, republic, break with Stalin, self-management, non-alignment, 1968, repression of nationalists and liberals, constitution of 1974, Tito's illness. ***History of Yugoslavia (1980-1992): Tito's death, 1981 in Kosovo, inflation, IMF, "stabilization", fuel tickets, business scandals, democratization movement, rise of nationalism, referendums. ***Yugoslav Wars: "the Troubles", Slovenian war, Croatian war, Bosnian war, Kosovo war, unrest in Macedonia. ***Former Yugoslav Republics or History of Yugoslavia (epiloge): Succession, issues between former members of the federation, the Hague tribunal, overview of current status. **Geography of Yugoslavia: A short summary, a list of links to geography of successor countries **Demographics of Yugoslavia: An overview of demographics from 1919-1992 and links to successor countries **Politics of Yugoslavia: ''Politics'' articles are largely about the political system and government, so this might need to be subdivided (or maybe politics in the past is history? or maybe this is where country boxes should go?): ***Politics of Yugoslavia (1918-1941): ***Politics of Yugoslavia (1945-1992) **Economy of Yugoslavia was very different before and after WW2, so this might need to be subdivided: ***Economy of Yugoslavia (1918-1941): ***Economy of Yugoslavia (1945-1992) **Military of Yugoslavia: same goes for the military ***Yugoslav Royal Army ***National Liberation Army of Yugoslavia ***Yugoslav People's Army ***Links to successor military forces ***Possibly link to other wartime resistance, "resistance" and quisling forces **Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, short summary plus link, or straight redirect to Yugoslavia **Kingdom of Yugoslavia, short summary plus link, or straight redirect to Yugoslavia **Democratic Federal Yugoslavia, short summary plus link, or straight redirect to Yugoslavia **Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia, short summary plus link, or straight redirect to Yugoslavia **Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, short summary plus link, or straight redirect to Yugoslavia **Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, short summary plus link, or straight redirect to Serbia and Montenegro --Zocky I think we should make the defunct entity titles part of the history series like Democratic Kampuchea. Maybe something like Communist Yugoslavia will prevent an arbitary cut. We could redirect the official names to the history series. For this article, let's not duplicate Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries. It tends to come out a disaster like Czechoslovakia because country templates are designed as a snapshot of the present, not a holistic view of the past. Think Prussia, not Soviet Union. The boxes don't need to be made. --User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 14:26, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC) :For a state which existed for 73 years out of last 86, i'd say Soviet Union is a better analogy. There's a lot to write. User:Zocky 14:55, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC) My point is that Soviet Union is poor encyclopedia article. The history section is bloated and most of the others are too thin. If we have to deal with successor governments, dissolutions, etc. then for the box, listing the area will be a disaster. Don't apply the country template here. It's not designed for defunct entities. We're focused on the history. --User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 15:44, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC) :Hm, if this is just about the country, boxes, there's already one for SFRY and it seems OK to me. I see no reason why one shouldn't be made for the kingdom. Althougn, my main point is the location of articles and where to link. User:Zocky 15:59, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC) Perhaps we can make boxes for the individual political entities but not the main Yugoslavia article. But even for those, we should ignore momentary data. --User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 01:45, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) == No edit wars, please == I noticed that User:Nikola Smolenski reverted my edit, but I did not revert it again (nor planed, until we talk it out), although I dissagree with his version. My change was: : ''... four of its six constituent republics ... had seceded.'' changed to ''... gained independence and the country dissolved.'' :AFAIK, everyone agrees that the republics seceded. Not everyone agrees that the country dissolved. The exact way in which the republics seceded, whether or not successive secessions (notice that my wording doesn't say successively, although it's also undisputed, I think it would smell POV) have dissolved the country and who says what about that should be best explained in History of Yugoslavia, and perhaps in History of Serbia and Montenegro. Other articles should use neutral wording rather than have entire explanation repeated everywhere. User:Nikola Smolenski 05:51, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC) I also noticed that User:GeneralPatton reverted to my version with some harsh words for Nikola. I would like to ask everyone to stay away from personal attacks, remain calm and not start another edit war. We can talk the wording over here to reach some NPOV, but please can we do it like civilised persons this time? --User:Romanm 22:34, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC) : I don't think it's necessary to rephrase the seceding part or repeat that it dissolved. It remained in place until the secession of four out of six constituent republics -- by which time its constitution that was talking about the structure of six republics was inherently void. --User:Shallot 22:38, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC) == Stop the over-disambiguation! == This is going way to far. When you talk about Kosovo and say "the rest of former Yugoslavia", you don't mean the kingdom or the republic, you mean both. Same goes for: *Josip Broz Tito was a Yugoslavia politician. *German military operations in Yugoslavia. *Belgrade is the former capital of Yugoslavia *Ljubljana, Slovenia (then Yugoslavia) *The embassy of Yugoslavia in Prague. *The blue-white-red tricolor of Yugoslavia. *and mostly everything else Disambiguating these links is confusing and factually incorrect. The first and the second Yugoslavia had tha same name, virtually same territory, continual trasfer of government. All the international treaties of the first Yugoslavia remained in force (if they weren't explicitly cancelled). It can be argued that the first and the second Yugoslavia were separate ''states'', but there is no basis for considering them to be separate countries. The article on Yugoslavia should be the main article for, well, Yugoslavia, and the rest should be part of the History of Yugoslavia series: *Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes *Kingdom of Yugoslavia *Yugoslavia in World War II *Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia *Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia *Yugoslav wars The only dissambiguation that is needed is Serbia and Montenegro --Zocky : User:DO'Neil seems to have thought that the 1941-1945 period should also be marked as KoY, which isn't quite correct. I'm going through the edits now and correcting them with proper explanations. --User:Shallot 10:46, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC) : I should also point out that DO'Neil did in fact properly disambiguate several of them. Some talked about "Republic" or were in a clear context of interbellum or so. Those are fine, I'll just correct the properly ambiguous ones. --User:Shallot 10:48, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC) This is no longer a disambiguation page and should not be. Please keep the ambiguous references linked here and revert any misleading disambiguations. --User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 18:25, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC) Jiang changed link in the ICTY on "former Yugoslavia" to point here. In this case that's wrong, because that meaning is SFRY and SFRY only. --User:Joy 11:53, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) == current article == It looks pretty good this way (with history in here), I think. I've added "main article" links for the two sections, and those articles should continue to be linked in relevant contexts, but whatever is linked here should be good too. --User:Joy 10:55, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) == Vladko's .bg edits == User:Vladko, kindly rid your edits of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view before reinstating them. --User:Joy 12:27, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yugoslavia



Yugoslavia broke apart in the 1990s to form the following present-day countries: * Bosnia and Herzegovina * Croatia * Republic of Macedonia * Serbia and Montenegro (known for a time as the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) * Slovenia Former countries European history Balkans Serbian history History of Croatia History of Slovenia History of Bosnia and Herzegovina


See other meanings of words starting from letter:

Y



Words begining with Yugoslavia:

Yugoslavia
Yugoslavia
Yugoslavia
Yugoslavia/Communications
Yugoslavia/Economy
Yugoslavia/Geography
Yugoslavia/Government
Yugoslavia/History
Yugoslavia/Military
Yugoslavia/People
Yugoslavia/Transnational_issues
Yugoslavia/Transportation
Yugoslavian
Yugoslavians
Yugoslavian_artists
Yugoslavian_civil_war
Yugoslavian_First_Army
Yugoslavian_First_League
Yugoslavian_Mountain_Hound
Yugoslavian_Mountain_Hound
Yugoslavian_mountain_hound
Yugoslavian_mountain_hound
Yugoslavian_people
Yugoslavian_Tricolour_Hound
Yugoslavian_Tricolour_Hound
Yugoslavian_tricolour_hound
Yugoslavia_(disambiguation)
Yugoslavia_at_the_1972_Summer_Olympics
Yugoslavia_at_the_1976_Summer_Olympics
Yugoslavia_at_the_1980_Summer_Olympics
Yugoslavia_basketball
Yugoslavia_infobox
Yugoslavia_maps
Yugoslavia_national_football_team
Yugoslavia_national_football_team


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