Vinland

Vinland (pronounced "Winland") was the name given to part of North America by the Icelandic Norseman Leif Ericson, about year 1000. Later archeology evidence of Viking colonization of the Americas in North America was found in L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland, Canada. Whether this was the Vinland of the Norse accounts is the subject of debate. It must be recognised that the Vikings did not perceive the exploration and settlement of Greenland and Vinland as any different than that of founding Iceland. It was merely an extension of their homeland and notions as to a different world only surfaced upon meeting the natives, noticeably different from Irish monks in Iceland. The colonization of the "New World" only occurred some time after Christopher Columbus discovered Central America for economic reasons. == Historical accounts == Vinland was first recorded by Adam of Bremen, a geographer and historian, in his book ''Descriptio insularum Aquilonis'' of approximately 1075. To write it he visited king Svend Estridson, who had knowledge of the northern lands. The main source of information about the Viking voyages to Vinland can be derived from two Icelandic sagas, ''The Saga of Eric the Red'' and the ''Saga of the Greenlanders''. These sagas were written down approximately 250 years after the settlement of Greenland and are open to significant interpretation. Combining those two, it seems that there were a few separate attempts to establish a Norse settlement in Vinland, including one led by Thorfinn Karlsefni, none of which lasted for more than two years. The disbandment of the small Viking colony probably had several causes. Disagreements among the men about the few women that followed on the trip, and fighting with the Skræling (Native Americans) already living on the land, are both indicated in the written sources. The story tells that after the settlement of Greenland by the Vikings, a merchant by the name of Bjarni Herj�lfsson, who was on his way to Iceland from Greenland, strayed off course due to a storm and thus accidentally discovered the east coast of America in 985 or 986. He then afterwards told the story and sold the ships to Leif Ericson, who, according to the stories, sailed back to those areas. It was late in the summer, and he did not want to stay over winter in this new land, which he noted was covered with forests, so he did not land and managed to reach Greenland before winter fell. With wood being in very short supply in Greenland, the settlers there were eager to explore the riches of this new land. Some years later Leifur Eir�ksson explored this coast, and established a short-lived colony on a part of the coast that he called Vinland. The first discovery made by Leifur was according to the stories Helluland ("flatstone land"), possibly Baffin Island. Markland ("wood land"), possibly Labrador Peninsula was discovered next (there is some evidence that the tree line in northern Labrador has been diminished or eroded since circa 1000) and lastly Vinland (commonly interpreted as "wine land", but interpreted as "pasture land" by others, see localization discussion below), possibly Newfoundland. The expedition included both families and livestocks and the aims were to begin new settlements. Straumfj�r�ur was the name of the northern settlement and H�p was the name for the southern settlement. However, according to the stories it was cancelled soon due to conflicts with the "Skræling" (possibly the later Beothuks, or Dorset (culture)). New voyages for woodcutting etc. seem to have been discussed even as late as the 1300s. Until the 19th century, the idea of Viking settlement in North America was considered by historians to be the product of mere folk tales. The first scholarly theory for the idea was put forth in 1837 by Denmark literary historian and antiquarian Carl Christian Rafn in his book ''Antiquitates American�''. Rafn had made an exhaustive examination of the sagas, as well as potential settlement sites on the North American coast and concluded that Vinland was a real place in North America that had been settled by the Norse. == Localisation debate == Historians do not agree on the location of Vinland. Carl Christian Rafn believed that Vinland was probably in New England. In the 1960s a Viking settlement was discovered and excavated at L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland, and many historians believe that this was Leifur's settlement, thus connecting Vinland to Newfoundland. Others have followed Rafn in sharing the belief that Vinland was farther to the south. In this view, L'Anse aux Meadows was perhaps part of an undocumented later attempt at settlement. Those who believe Newfoundland is the location of Vinland generally think that settlements further south are unlikely, because maintaining such a distant lifestyle from the Norse homelands would have been far too difficult for the Vikings of the time. Iron and other European convenient resources would have been too difficult to sustain on any workable level, as the later English settlers in New England would later find. Costly fights with native populations so far from supply lines would have been another deterrent. An argument for placing Vinland further south is Adam of Bremen's account. In his ''Descriptio insularum Aquilonis'' he wrote that the name Vinland comes from huge amounts of grapes growing there (''Praeterea unam adhuc insulam recitavit a multis in eo repertam occeano, quae dicitur Winland, eo quod ibi vites sponte nascantur, vinum optimum ferentes''). He received this information from king Svend Estridson. However, grapes do not grow in the sites commonly seen as possible locations of Vinland. There are a number of theories to explain this discrepancy: It was an early marketing attempt, something like the naming of Greenland by Erik the Red. In this theory, Leifur's naming of Markland and Vinland was to encourage others to explore and settle there. A theory subject to much debate among scholars is that there was a misinterpretation of short-i Vinland as long-i Vinland (''Viinland''). In this theory Vinland's naming is based on the Old Norse word (short-i) 'vinja' meaning cereal grass. This theory can be combined with the previous one: Estridson might have embellished Adam's mistake if he believed it would increase the fame of Vinland for joint-financed ventures he would no doubt claim for himself. One problem with this theory is why it was not called ''vinjaland'' or ''vinjarland'' instead; a contraction needs to be posited to explain this. Another problem is why the sagas outside of Adam of Bremen's account also refer to double-i ''Viinland'' and mention vines as well. Since the sagas were written later, an explanation for this could be that the sagas were somehow influenced by Adam of Bremen's account. Alternatively Estridson was joking or lying, or even referring to similarly sounding Wendland instead in an earlier account, where grapes did grow, and this was later confused with Vinland by Adam of Bremen. Another theory is that we have not discovered the true location of Vinland yet, and it is further south, where grapes do grow. More subtly Vinland could be seen as a gateway or northern part, in reach of more temperate areas where grapes grew. Another possibility is that later, longer voyages further south, reporting Concord grape confused the story told about the settlement, as there were individuals of the crews who had ventured out on their own to return with tales. Finally it has been speculated that grapes did in fact grow in the area in the past, but not anymore due to climatic changes. It may indeed have been warm enough for grapes to grow in Newfoundland as in present times grapes do grow at the same latitude in Europe (France and northern Italy) and North America (Washington State and southern British Columbia). While the theory that Vinland was further south is a legitimate line of inquiry, for some the motivation to search Vinland further south could have been more personal to justify or romanticize the later (post-Columbian) history of Swedish and Danish colonization of areas in the present-day United States. There have been several instances where evidence of pre-Columbian presence of Norse explorers in the United States has been considered to be fake by most researchers, such as for example the Kensington Runestone. So far, the only evidence of the Norse in the United States that is generally accepted is the Maine Penny. == Other Usages == Vinland is also the symbolic name for the cultural landscape of Canada (Upper Vinland) and America (Lower Vinland) which modern Germanic Heathens and �satr�ar use to distinguish themselves from other ethno-cultural groups who share the same geographical areas of North America. ''See also'': Vinland map, Helge Ingstad, Maine Penny, Kensington Runestone == External links == *[http://www.mnh.si.edu/vikings/start.html Vikings: The north Atlantic saga]; [http://www.mnh.si.edu/vikings/voyage/subset/vinland/archeo.html Searching for archeological evidence of Vikings in Labrador and Newfoundland] - from The Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of Natural History *[http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/vinland.html Images from L'Anse aux Meadows] *http://www.neufundlandundlabrador.com/viking.html *[http://web.archive.org/web/20010724063731/www.capecod.net/~nmgood/ "Was Vinland in Newfoundland?"]- Paper by Einar Haugen, (1906-1994) Professor emeritus of Scandinavian Studies, Harvard University * [http://www.wordplay.com/tourism/viking.html The Vikings in Newfoundland] * [http://www.medsca.org/origin_surname.html Source for vin meaning grass] Norwegian history History of Iceland Greenland Canadian history Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact Viking Age la:Vinlandia

Vinland

''Also, the name of the leader very probably wasn't Leif Ericsson, but I'll have to look the name up.'' --User:Pinkunicorn The word Vinland doesn't necessarily mean 'wineland'. The word 'vin' could also mean .. how to say it in english .. 'large open land usable for agriculture'. --anonymous I will give this some attention: anonymous, you are quite correct: vin/viin is the subject of ''much'' scholarly contention. user:sjc Also, beyond that, the article on global warming states that in Leif's time the climate of Greenland and Newfoundland was substantially warmer than today - making vines possible. Vines do grow in Nova Scotia, which isn't much further south, today, although they're not so commercially viable as other places, they DO grow. Regardless, "vine" was never a word describing the viniferis plant associated with wine and grapes in Old Norse. It is a reference to the vanes of grass, alluding to the pastureland. --anonymous : ''P� Island, liksom i Norge och Danmark, hade det visserligen i flere �rhundraden varit v�l bekant, att nordm�n l�ngt i sydv�st fr�n Gr�nland uppt�ckt ett stort land, som de af den d�r vildt v�xande vinrankan gifvit namnet Vinland. Men traditionen h�rom hade sm�ningom d�tt ut, och de gamla handskrifter som f�rt�ljde d�rom l�go f�rg�tna i de isl�ndska torfstugornas undang�mda vr�r.'' (Source: "Amerika, dess uppt�ckt, er�fring och fyrahundra�riga utveckling" Vol. 1 ("Amerikas uppt�ckt af isl�ndarne. Vinland"), 1892) : Although on Iceland, as well in Norway and Denmark, it had been well known for multiple of centuries that norsemen from the far south-west relative Greenland had discovered a great land, that they from the wild growing "vinranks" (=vitis vinifera) gave the title Vinland. But this tradition had nowadays vanished, and the old manuscripts that told the true story was lying hidden in various corners of Icelanding peat-cottages. : // User:Rogper 23:40, 2 May 2004 (UTC) A-ha, just like how Yngvi-Freyr was king of the Turks? That Thrudheim(Thor's home) is Troy? Give me a break! There are so many lies written to impress the Mediterranean cultures I am nauseated!. Just like how Hitler called the Nordic man "Aryan"(Iranian). I do not condone upholding lies to "improve" the social status of the Nordic people. I am Nordic myself, and that is insulting to me, to think I would embrace blatently fake propaganda and shift my cultural allegiance to please those who would outright meanly call my ancestors barbarians as a way to get people to feel inferior, just because they weren't Mediterranean! --anonymous You also wreak of User:Mic's B.S. like when he went and latinised all manner of provincial placenames in Sverige just because the Catholics did after St Ansgar came. The agenda is misleading and dangerous, not populist in the least, except after people have given up complaint, and their feelings are over-rided. I do not have to tell you again. STOP IT! The Nordic peoples deserve their Germanic characterisations, regardless of what some POV Mediterranean scholastic pushers believe otherwise, fascist! --anonymous Hey Kenneth, at it again, I see. I've just de-Kennethized your additions to this page. Some of it was interesting, but as usual instead of adding you overwrite in an unsubtle manner with any theory you are personally convinced of. Could you please cut that out in the future? Thanks. User:Martijn faassen 22:07, 3 May 2004 (UTC) No, I will not bow to you. Do not stalk me like a plague. You do anything to discredit me, troll! User:Kenneth Alan 07:20, 4 May 2004 (UTC) ---- == The meaning of Vinland == I can't understand what an editor is trying to say with "hull-land" and the etymolgi of "vinland", that it has something to do with cereal grass. Are you trying to say that hull is the same as h�ll (="flat rock")? Can you describe your aims in Swedish? // User:Rogper 19:40, 4 May 2004 (UTC) :::Hull is a protective outer shield, and that is what Baffin is to the southwest of Nunavut including Hudson Bay; there is remarkably low salt content to the calmer waters beyond Baffin as opposed to those outside of the archipelago in the Davis Strait. The Faeroyska, Islenska, Groenlanders and intended settlers of Vinland counted animal husbandry as their economical mainstay with fishing a compliment to this. Good pasture was like maize for the Virginia "Planters"--a very wealthy local crop! User:Kenneth Alan 01:28, 5 May 2004 (UTC) :I noticed you left in the 'vane of grass' theory as the main theory for the name of 'vinland'. Is this now commonly accepted as the main theory as opposed to the one involving wine? In my sources it is mentioned briefly as an unconvincing theory and the wine theory is favored. :Anyway, the section on etymology is a bit of jumble right now and needs editing. User:Martijn faassen 20:07, 4 May 2004 (UTC) ::I've just edited the etymology section to include a number of theories. I hope everybody (including Kenneth) likes it. :::Wine is not a native term to Norse speakers nor is it a native plant to the actual Norse settlements discovered in all the time of colonisation in New England and Nova Scotia; the encroachment of civilisation hasn't upturned any new rocks. I had lived in New England for 19 years to not hear a single local tale of that BS about Vinland being south of Newfoundland, and the people who would have talked would be the whalers and fishermen who never bragged such damned rubbish, amongst other wild tales! I have grudgingly watched the tabloid American History Channel on TV where many Mediterranean POV histories and crypto-zoological type pseudoscience about ghosts and Judeo-Christian tales of the Bible with slants on the Middle East conflict, predominating as "facts". One of their bogus programs is the "Irish in America before Columbus" story which has them supposedly built a stone settlement in northeastern New England. I was like ?WTF? I am part Irish but I am not stupid to fall for that, nor the St. Brendan crossing over either, such falsified and fallacious claims only serve to make those people look like asses! It's most assuredly native American or by the Pilgrims. User:Kenneth Alan 01:28, 5 May 2004 (UTC) ::::'viin' as wine seems to be accepted by most researchers. Therefore this theory deserves mention. The rest of your rant seems to be an irrelevant exposition of your world view. User:Martijn faassen 09:47, 5 May 2004 (UTC) :::That is because their tendencies are POV in favour of Mediterranean sources for linguistics. It is extremely common to base research on Latin Catholic ideas, at least in Western Europe where much cultural interplay and domination was achieved by the religious faction with their tongue and etymologies. You say you have no part to play in other people's games/agendas, but you are clearly falling into place just as I described. User:Kenneth Alan 10:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC) I've reverted to my last edit, because I thought Kenneth only introduced POV in what was a NPOV exposition of competing theories. If Kenneth wants to introduce things in that section I suggest we debate this in the talk page first. Private psychological theories about why certain theories developed do not belong in the article, nor do private etymological theories. User:Martijn faassen 09:56, 5 May 2004 (UTC) :Aha, it is the responsibility of the editor to judge the credibility of his sources by examining the data; that is at least a common way of doing things, unlike in Soviet Russia where you shouldn't have judged the communist motives of people, much less thought of it. I will not add data to an article if it is partisan POV, which you have allowed to predominate as the question. In the Northern lands, placenames had always been Germanic terms at least to that time period, so I suggest you kick your sorry arse out of here and stop whining! You only help people to be confused! That is a bad article! Pretending we know nothing definitive about an article doesn't educate! It doesn't teach people the central issues to the article. For instance, there is no mention in this article of Hop being a chief's settlement, as we would typically identify a colony or nation's capital. Most people would percieve the writings as little to nil actual substance, or meat to the article, using the confusion you adhere to as a filler, like fat, salt and sugar. User:Kenneth Alan 10:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC) Vinland is spelled "V�nland" in modern Icelandic with the "V�n" in it meaning either wine which in it's standalone form is "V�n" or alternatively "V�nvi�ur" which is Grapevine, and "land" being just "land". The danish article however defines it as: "gr�sland, tundra." or a "grassland" or "tundra". --User:�var Arnfj�r� Bjarmason User:�var Arnfj�r� Bjarmason/ User talk:�var Arnfj�r� Bjarmason/ [ Bjarmason] User:�var Arnfj�r� Bjarmason/ 01:25, 2004 Dec 7 (UTC) ==Edit summary== Since otherwise we'll be trapped in a revert war, I've done an edit of Kenneth's contributions. Restore Helluland as flatstone land. Can you specify a source for the "hull" etymology? Restore balanced view of etymology of Vinland in main text (outside etymology section). This mentions wineland (which is still a commonly accepted explanation) as well as the pasture land theory and defers further discussion to the etymology section. Tightened up and NPOV-ed section on why those who advocate Newfoundland based Vinland consider it unlikely the settlement could be further south. Attributed it to particular advocates instead of saying 'most'. Left out detailed explanation of early English settlement as irrelevant to this article (perhaps a link to an article about this topic can be added?). Left out discussion about why the various native americans made this futile to even try for security reasons. This is rather speculative, and the vikings might not have reasoned that way at all. Vikings settled distant areas with a far higher native population density with a lot higher technology in Europe, such as Normandy and various places in the Mediterranean. They even attacked Constantinople. :I've since found arguments along these lines. Far from supply lines battle with the natives can't have been very easy, of course. I still think the supply lines are the main reason, not the ferocity of the natives, but I'll add back a bit of text about this. User:Martijn faassen 18:50, 6 May 2004 (UTC) Turned Olav Magnusson and Olaf the White into "Olaf Skyrre", for which I can find many google hits. I can't find any in connection with the penny for the others. Spun discussion of Maine Penny into separate article. Turned "Svend Estridson" (which didn't have a link) back into linked Sweyn Estridson. Researched it; this is the same king (same date of death, for instance), just under another name. Svend Estridson in fact redirects to this page. :Yes, that's right. Sweyn Estridson in English, Svend Estridson i Danish, and Sven Estridsson in Swedish. // User:Rogper 13:07, 6 May 2004 (UTC) Much tightened arguments in main text to defend short-i 'vinland' (grassland) interpretation. Shortened versions of these arguments are still in the main text. Removed psychological theory about how men kept up the king's wording to retain his credibility. These sagas were written much later. We don't need to edit this listing of theories so that one favorite stands out way stronger than the other, like Kenneth has been trying to do, obviously favoring the pastureland theory. Got rid verbiage by Kenneth arguing against the wendland theory, and clarified it a bit. Added the word 'even' to make it appropriately speculative. The theory is that Wendland was referred to by the king in an earlier discussion, and Adam later confused this early discussion (about grapes) with a later discussion about Vinland. I found this theory in a rather obscure posting though, so I'll gladly remove it entirely if we can't find some backup by others. Got rid of "more fanciful" as a description of the vinland is further south theory; this is definitely POV. Many scholars have and do search vinland further south; it's not wikipedia's job to declare them all fanciful. :I have added a separate on how romantic view could influence the desire to place Vinland further south. User:Martijn faassen 19:27, 6 May 2004 (UTC) Remove psychology theory as to the roots of this theory. Again, we want to present the competing theories, not explain why the people who hold a theory is wishfulfillment, ''certainly'' not as a definite statement. I don't understand why "longer" was changed into "unchartered". Unchartered by who? I changed it back to longer. I've moved the line saying: "Straumfjord was the name of the northern settlement and H�p the name of the southern settlement", which was sitting there all alone, up into the third paragraph of the article. I hope they are right there; I don't know the details about these names. : I suggest that the mention of Straumfjord (=Kangerlussuaq?) and Hop be removed and put into own articles about Thorfinn Karlsefni and Snorri Thorbrandsson, because there are plenty of other names too. [http://www.lysator.liu.se/runeberg/erofring/k01.html]. // User:Rogper 13:07, 6 May 2004 (UTC) ::Could you do this? I don't know enough yet about these topics to make sense. User:Martijn faassen 18:46, 6 May 2004 (UTC) User:Martijn faassen 20:35, 5 May 2004 (UTC) == Big restructuring == I've restructured the article quite a bit, moving things quite drastically, and making the sections more coherent (though bigger). Someone please read over it to see whether the ordering is all right. I've also spun off some non-Vinland material into Adam of Bremen, which I also restructured. User:Martijn faassen 23:13, 7 May 2004 (UTC) == restructuring? == Perhaps some of the text should be put into their origin sagas and Viking colonization of the Americas, and not Vinland? There is currently a redirect of the former to the latter. Comments? // User:Rogper 23:04, 7 May 2004 (UTC) :I think at present it'd be too difficult to unstangle the topics into two coherent stories? Where'd the localization debate go? Both articles would have to say something about it. I don't think the article is long enough yet to make a split worthwhile. Note that I ''have'' been able to split off material into the Maine penny article (entirely new) and Adam of Bremen articles (big edits). If other subtopics arise that could stand on their own as their own page, we could split them off. User:Martijn faassen 23:17, 7 May 2004 (UTC) === Why not put Vinland in the context of Newfoundland, === Why not put Vinland in the context of Newfoundland, as MOST scientists advocate, even if they aren't sure of any other sites or excursions, they are VERY certain of the settlement in L'anse aux Meadows, just as it is in the saga, further past Groenland. We have no other site found. Put the facts and the fantasy together and grow some balls, for crying out loud! No need to feel less acknowledging of our viking relatives just because they didn't go very far as the later explorers and merchants did on voyages financed by wealthy royalty, with better tech. No need to see the vikings weak for only going so far. They were poor and in inclement weather. Just think, if the Groenland settlements died out, how profitable could further ventures have been? I propose to include this as the early history and founding of Newfoundland's European society. Their business in the sagas reflects the geography and natural resources. : I don't suggest to do that, because "Vinland" is a place orignially written in the Icelandic sagas, and only a modern scarcer excavitation has suggest its place. But we can write "in recent time, the interest of identifying Vinland with North America and deduce the truefullness in the sagas have increased, but there are much archeological work still to do." // User:Rogper 13:41, 16 May 2004 (UTC) That's not fair! They did it for Heinreich Schliemann when he found "Troy" in Anatolia! No way, Rogper, we have to change things to be a bit more fair! We can't just let the Mediterraneans always win out and minimise our accomplishments for their ego! User:Kenneth Alan 21:41, 16 May 2004 (UTC) ::I agree with Rogper in that this article is about Vinland. We have reasonable indications that this is in Newfoundland and not everybody agrees. There is also an interesting history behind it; at first it was thought it was just a myth, later it turned out the Norse did reach North America in fact. We could add a few lines to the Newfoundland article that this is considered by many the most likely place of Vinland perhaps, and link back to here (if such a thing is not already there). User:Martijn faassen 18:26, 17 May 2004 (UTC) I agree with your assessment. We must note that most ideals that DO seem controvertible to the Newfoundland case were begun long before Ingstad found the settlements at L'Anse aux Meadows. To me, it seemed like there were too many hurt prides running around that refused to admit they had chosen a less illustrious place to emigrate from the Nordic countries. It seems like they just became stubborn about their ignorance to hold up their own credibility and wishfulness they could have Vinland in the Midwest. For the English, it would seem they like the idea of getting more tourists out in New England, not giving a crap for dinky Newfie-land. I know how the tourism industry works. They lie and encourage lies to make a living off of it. I'm not into that, even though my birthplace can be found right smack dab in Yankee-land. I don't want the lies flourishing. Self delusive fantasy is interesting sometimes, which is why I will sit through a Hollywood rendition of Jean D'Arc, fully discounting Jean but still be on the French side when my forefathers were on their enemy's taxed soil. My point is, the painted picture is fantastic, and inspiring, like how the French defeated the English based on Jean's craze, but wholly ignorant of the truth. When I first saw the map of the vikings going through the Hudson to the Great Lakes, I was thrilled at the idea, but all the evidence reeked of Newfoundland, and again, I'll say the same for New England, they both were most industrious sites of Northern European extraction in the New World. Both the British Isles and Scandinavia, including the Low Countries and English Channel have markedly high amounts of viking heritage. It would be foolish to let the guard down in editing to not note that when seeing some interpretations that seem ethno-patriotic fantasy. Even in Quebec, some have conjured that Saguenay-Lac St. Jean are the remains of some viking kingdom, but the history on that is in error and inextricable tied to the French monarchy. On another note, it would seem that some ex-Confederate oriented Dixie-landers of Celtic blood want to say that the Welsh Prince Madog visited South Carolina to get the native tribes blue eyes and lighter hair. This is all fanciful as it is chiefly aimed at converting ignorant people into fools for the fantasy that they had such "ancient" origins that are their singular pride. It seems maddening, but that's the newer version of "white power/pride" out there. Of course, the same with Irish Saint Brendan, who is immortalised on the grounds that he supposedly found America before anybody as well, but his Christian achievements seem to go unnoticed, what he was actually canonised for. User:Kenneth Alan 01:50, 18 May 2004 (UTC) === Objectivity in articles === Oh, and I am not a "Newfie", and I'm not trying to fluff their genesis up to countreweight the Ontario English stereotypes of them. Would it occur to you that the lifestyle of early settlers in Newfoundland mirrors the experiences of the sagas? Or are we to encourage to forays into Madog and Brendan for the sake of Romanticism? The Romantics are exaggerating for their ethno-patriotic pride on who knew and experienced America first. Utter nonsense. If Wikipedia is trying to increase its own credibility, it's editors should refrain from editing things in clearly POV manners. One manner is; "Oh, we can't be sure, there's just so much we don't know." Bullshit, they know only what they know and what we all have proof of so far. If they insist on cryptozoologic style science, they push their own falsehood and POV. Don't you look at these researchers and get a sense of their HOPEFULLNESS that things aren't what the evidence calls for? Or, do you hope they get their delusion circulated everywhere to satisfy your own? Certainly, their CLAIMS are just that. As you would steer my edits here to be NPOV, try to use some sense with your sources, and get a sense of the craze over "America the Beautiful". Everybody has a place here in America now, you don't need to entice anybody with false mythologies on the roots of people seeking their place in the wall of fame. It is surely looking like the wall of shame. User:Kenneth Alan 22:43, 15 May 2004 (UTC) : The history is written by those who wins the battle, the victories, and not the loosers. :-) Are there any specific statement by you that someone thinks is POV? // User:Rogper 13:45, 16 May 2004 (UTC) Rogper, that was Martijn Faassen following me around to make sure I be a "good little boy". Pfft. User:Kenneth Alan 21:45, 16 May 2004 (UTC) ::But is there anything in the article at present that you consider POV and want to fix? User:Martijn faassen 18:21, 17 May 2004 (UTC) My problem was viewing the article as it was totally a tourist's fod for thought and not scientific. It seemed too heavily fancy laden with the vines being the "preferred truth"(Indeed, Welch's Concord Grape Juice is the biggest grossing grape product in New England-I confess it is better than the green grapes of the Old World). I know New Englanders, I am one, and they would definitely encourage the lies in order to get more people in their B&B and rented vacation cottages. I confess, they ARE nice. :) I just don't want the whole legitimacy of this heritage issue discredited, when there is so much to gain from looking at it candidly. Please keep that in mind in editing, is all. User:Kenneth Alan 02:01, 18 May 2004 (UTC) : Well, the wine and wheat path of the meaning is not our thoughts but the description given in the written texts. Compare to Iceland that is a very hot climate. // User:Rogper 08:42, 18 May 2004 (UTC) === Hullland instead of Flatstoneland === Sorry, I just now got finished viewing the article. It's been doen nicely. My reason for "hull" is because it is etymologically connected to that "h�ll" term. Since the nature adjective comes before the technological reference. I am not debating that hull has no connection to "flat stone", like slate. The land of Baffin-I have seen pictures-has flat rocks in so many places. I was just using a word in English close enough to h�ll, just as we use Greenland instead of Groenland. What gives? I am making sense here. Instead of Helluland or H�ll-land , we can put Hull-land for English. Just a bit of translation on my part. : The etymology is the word's origin and have nothing to do with their similarity in spelling. The "h�ll" (or "haell") have another Transcription_(linguistics) from "hull". The heall should sound like when saying the word hell. According to [http://www.lysator.liu.se/runeberg/svetym/0344.html] is haell something that has an incline. Perhaps the english "hill" is etymologically related, but that is my guess. // User:Rogper 14:00, 16 May 2004 (UTC) Well, I believe you are right. Baffin is on an incline everywhere away from the sea, moving inward. There was some comment on the ice in the sagas, was there not? I have seen people link the two words "hell" and "hill" often enough, but never a mention of "hull". I did, because this is a nautical description. They never really experienced the land just glanced over it many times. Because there is a city in England called Hull, I figured it would work very easily. That is bound by water just as Helluland. A hull is a natural protective feature that does often more than not does rise or incline. Just like we call Groenland Greenland, I figured this would work. Just like we have Iceland instead of Island. Are you understanding me? User:Kenneth Alan 22:01, 16 May 2004 (UTC) :If there is no other research besides your theory that indicates the 'hull' translation, I think we should leave in the current interpretation (flatstone), as part of the no original research policy.User:Martijn faassen 18:30, 17 May 2004 (UTC) In the Mercia article, I had formerly debated the decision for something more English as an alternative to a latinisation. We had seen Mierce and another, but aimed for and ending like -land. From such intense analysis, we determined the likely existence of that, just as there is Northumberland for Northumbria and East England for East Anglia. My point here is a tapering one from that, and eating away at the back of my mind for some time now. We know that Mark has at least two meanings, border and forest, at least in the minds of the inhabitants speaking latin or germanic. I look at it as the forest being the borders anyways. They have always anciently served as a border. : I think the English word "Woodland" have the same meaning as "Markland". However, in today Swedish, ''mark'' changed its meaning from "wood or forest" to "ground". I don't now how it is in Danish or Norwegan. // User:Rogper 14:09, 16 May 2004 (UTC) That change in mark for Swedish seems reflective of the boundary issue. Territory, I suppose, eh? That's how it happened for the Danes, correct? That's a latinisation, but mark as the wood does work because it's a Norse term. You know what, as ironic as it is that we need some scientist consensus for explicitly confirming the natures of the places, if you look at the Labrador flag, like I said, it has Spruce twig in it's jack, specifically denoting wood as it's primary bounty. Too bad we aren't "allowed" to make such calls. User:Kenneth Alan 22:01, 16 May 2004 (UTC) === Map === What prevents us from drawing that conclusion into the naming convention? :Which conclusion? That Vinland is in Newfoundland? Because there is a debate, and we have to respresent that fairly in the NPOV policy. The readers can draw their own conclusions from the article, if they want to. I think we give Newfoundland good support, though perhaps you have specific suggestions for improvement there? User:Martijn faassen 18:46, 17 May 2004 (UTC) Well, at least putting the focus into better light. For instance, the UFO phenomena in Roswell, New Mexico. Obviously, it's delusion as truth has engrossed Hollywood billions of dollars with their twists and turns. Most have casually agreed, after the F-117 stealth fighter and B-2 stealth bomber rolled out for display, that the US military had secrets it was trying to conceal regarding test weaponry(U-2, SR-71, AND weather balloons). No big deal, we put the alien existence part of that topic onto the sideline feature(not denying aliens or embellishing in them). User:Kenneth Alan 02:11, 18 May 2004 (UTC) Markland, if in Labrador, would definitively been as far as they've traveled inland from the sea, from the saga and archaeological results. What's to stop us from holding that as a primary focus for the description? Even Labrador's flag is remniscient of the Greenlander description of it being a prime source of wood, as the Black Spruce is the key feature in the jack of the flag. I'm not to sure about the effectiveness of spruce for shipmasts, but I know that the Eastern White Pine(used by English settlers as a replacement for Scots Pine) is present in Newfoundland in ample enough quantities. Perhaps, as some people have speculated in regards to Greenland's climes during the viking age, that the weather was hospitable enough for pine to be present in Labrador, but all I know for certain is that Jack Pine happens to be the only pine in that region, and concentrated to the southwest border on Quebec, quite aways from the sea. I am confused by the claims of Markland's location, then, unless somebody could clarify the wood uses. Maybe this was a confusion for those who postulated further than Newfoundland. If it is, I haven't seen this theory, but it makes a confusion enough for me to somewhat doubt the locales I defended. Did the Greenlanders care whether it was 'gran' or 'furu'? User:Kenneth Alan 23:17, 15 May 2004 (UTC) : I think a good idea would be to scetch a map containing the places from the sagas, and indicating the places where archeological remains have been found. For example, http://www.nyteknik.se/bilder/bildarkiv/Vinland.jpg , is one such attempt. // User:Rogper 14:12, 16 May 2004 (UTC) ::I have seen that map before, but it relies on the Kensington Stone to work, which most people, scientists and general others believe is a fake by the Scandinavian settlers in the Midwest. I agree with your idea, but perhaps it would be best to just have a visual of the northwest Atlantic coastline? Maybe linking to those sites with specific lines of travel postulated is great. User:Kenneth Alan 22:06, 16 May 2004 (UTC) :::Sketching such a map sounds tricky. I agree that this map looks like it relies on the Kensington Stone, of dubious provenance. Sketching it on a real map based on mythology sounds tricky (and could be considered as original research). A map of north-east America and Greeland might be nice though, without marking anything. I see that you've got your mind in the right place Martijn, and you recognise my attempts to preserve this article. Regards. User:Kenneth Alan 02:11, 18 May 2004 (UTC) :My small contribution to the nonsense: From growing up in Norway, having a fairly good understanding of various Norwegian dialects as well as having studied Old Norse, I would like to state the following: Helluland, or "Hell-land" is beyond doubt "(Flat) Stone Land). Hell, helle, heller, hellu have been used for flat stones for over 1000 years in Norway as well as in Sweden and Denmark. Markland means "Forestland". "Mark" can also mean meadow, but in Norway it means Forest. "Mark", or "Mork" is still being used in dialects. Now, for "Vinland", it has little to do with grapes. "Vinr" is Old Norse for grass (hay). It is still being used in dialects in Oesterdal in Norway. "Vinna" there means "haying season". Grassland would have been "Vinrland" (Vinland). --Lars in Wisconsin. ::Lars! Thank you very much for your contribution to the topic! Just to point out again...Flat stone areas can be considered hulls when at the shoreline. How is transcendant insight so hard to understand? User:Kenneth Alan 19:45, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC) == Norse naming conventions == What are the norse naming conventions in Wikipedia; anybody know? The most recent edit to the article edited away what are presumably the English spellings of various names, replacing them with the norse spelling. Leif for instance becomes Leifur, though Leif is definitely the name commonly used in English. Comments? User:Martijn faassen 02:30, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC) == possibility of grapes == A recent edit changed text into the following: Finally it has been speculated that grapes did in fact grow in the area in the past, but not anymore due to climatic changes. The posibility that grapes once grew in Newfoundland is high. In the present day, grapes grow in many areas of Europe, mainly France and northern Italy, that are at the same latitude as Newfoundland. While it's true that in Europe grapes can at least be cultivated at high latitudes, that doesn't mean the climate is the same. Europe is influenced by the gulf stream, north america (at that latitude) is not. Wild grapes growing in the area of L'Anse aux Meadows generally seems to be considered unlikely as far as I'm aware. I've changed the article back, adding a note about latitudes. If the original editor has some evidence that the possibility is indeed high, please let's first discuss this on the talk page. User:Martijn faassen 20:44, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

V�nland

#REDIRECT Vinland

See other meanings of words starting from letter:

V

Words begining with Vinland:

Vinland
Vinland
V�nland
Vinland,_Kansas
Vinland,_kansas
Vinland,_KS
Vinland,_WI
Vinland,_Wisconsin
Vinland_Map
Vinland_Map
Vinland_map
Vinland_map
Vinland_Map.jpg