(Latin ''veneratio'', Greek language δουλια ''dulia'') In traditional Christian churches (for example, Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy), veneration, or veneration of saints, is a special act of honoring a dead person who has been identified as singular in the traditions of the religion, and through them honoring God who made them and in whose image they are made. Veneration is often shown outwardly by respectfully bowing or making the sign of the cross before a saint's icon, relics, or statue. These items are often also kissed. In Catholic and Orthodox theology, veneration is a type of honor distinct from the worship due to God alone. Church theologians have long adopted the terms ''latria'' for the sacrificial worship due to God alone, and ''dulia'' for the veneration given to saints and icons. (Catholic theology also includes the term ''hyperdulia'' for the type of veneration specifically paid to Mary, mother of Jesus, in Catholic tradition.) This distinction is spelled out in the dogmatic conclusions of the Seventh Ecumenical Council (A.D. 787), which also decreed that iconoclasm (forbidding icons and their veneration) is a heresy that amounts to a denial of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. In some other religious traditions, veneration is considered to amount to the heresy of idolatry, and the related practice of canonization amounts to the heresy of apotheosis. Protestant theology usually denies that any real distinction between veneration and worship can be made, and claims that the practice of veneration distracts the Christian soul from its true object, the worship of God. However, many Anglicans do venerate saints. In the tradition of Green theology (or Creation-centered theology) animals, plants, and other parts of nature may be said to be ''venerated'' simply by taking good care of them, thereby showing honor and respect for God who made them. Creation (theology), being regarded as an icon of the Creator, is a valid object of veneration. Philology, to venerate derives from the Latin verb, ''venerari'', meaning to regard with reverence and respect. This word derives from the same root as the name ''Venus (mythology)'', the goddess of love of the ancient Roman pantheon. == See also == *Genuflection *Pilgrimage *Hagiography *Iconography *Idolatry in Christianity *Prayer *Blessed Virgin Mary Eastern Orthodoxy Roman Catholic worship Sainthood
I changed the link from "relics" to "relic", then someone changed it back again, and now Wesley has changed it to "relic" for the second time. Will this be an editing war? I also completed the sentence, then someone changed it back to an incomplete sentence without the highlighted word veneration; now I've done the same sentence-completion again. User:Michael Hardy 22:10 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC) ---- Apologetics I removed the following two sentences when I refactored to create a new apologetics section. I found it difficult to formulate the apologetics section; the critical view is very simple, and doesn't really need elaboration, but I fear that may make the whole section appear POV slanted towards the historic Church. However, these traditions expressly reserve worship for God alone, as expressed both in their doctrinal statements and in the texts of the prayers offered together in the Divine Liturgy or the Roman Mass, Vespers, Matins, etc. The practice of veneration is widely considered by Protestants to be idolatry. ---- iconoclasm I'm not sure if the Seventh Ecumenical Council link is sufficiently relevant, but if so, the probably iconoclasm should be there as well ? : Good point. I've tried to indicate the 7th E. Council's significance, and included a link to iconoclasm too. User:Wesley 18:02, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC) I believe that "traditional and modern apologists" is not actually the same as Catholics. I think that most of the Orthodox would be included. I suspect there might be a very few others as well, but primarily Catholics and Orthodox. Note, however, that some of the traditional apologists predate the Catholic/Orthdodox split (ie, the Great Schism), and so I tend to call them simply traditional Christians. That is, I believe some parts of this debate go back to the Iconoclasm, and even before.- # 209.8.184.25 Nontheless, it's perfectly possible to describe this without insisting on labelling. "Apologists" is not particularly helpful in this context. -- User:Binky : I gather that "labelling" is pejorative; would you kindly explain further? Also, I gather that apologist is pejorative; would you mind also explaining that a bit? (I ask because I thought that apologist was a term for a person presenting an argument, without implied criticism of the person presenting the argument.) I did not intend to criticize the "apologists" for presenting their argument at all. I simply wanted to describe whom I was talking about, and what they argued. : Oh, and I was alluding to both traditional and modern "apologists" as an allusion to the fact this particular apology (argument) for the practice is not actually new; it is quite an old one (I think ?). They are simply rehashing (or recapitulating if you will) the traditional argument (but I don't mean to denigrate them for so doing). : What is there now is very awkward. "Critics charge..." then "Those without objection...". How about "Critics charge..." "Defenders argue" -- much less awkward, and quite parallel (which parallelism is, I think, appropriate). Or even "Critics charge..." and "Defenders counter...". That sounds a familiar point/counterpoint to my ears. : Then, my observation that the position of the defense is actually a restatement of an ancient apology may be inserted later, somehow, rather than at the start of the sentence; I think that would be better anyway. I'm willing to take a shot at it if you'd like (and perhaps post it here rather than in the article). : Or, maybe the whole argument doesn't belong here, as it appears in some length on the idolatry page... :) :: Without looking at the current article, I agree that "apologist" is not an inherently pejorative term. Veneration of icons and relics goes back to the earliest days of the church, as soon as there began to be martyrs; According to some, St. Luke painted the first icons; then there's Eusebius' account of the "icon not made with hands" that Jesus is said to have sent to King Abgar. Veneration of icons wasn't really defended until the 7th or 8th century, because it wasn't really attacked until then; not coincidentally, this was also during the first rise of Islam. The greatest defenders at the time were St. John of Damascus and St. Theodore the Studite; this history is I think covered in the iconoclasm article. The real question is whether to "recapitulate" the whole argument here, or just mention it briefly and point elsewhere. Personally, it might make the most sense to have the full length version in the iconoclasm article, and have this article and the idolatry article mention the issue and point readers to where they can find the full length version. Does that sound reasonable? Other suggestions? User:Wesley 18:05, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC) == Veneration of plants and animals == Someone asked in an edit comment about the intent of the sentence or paragraph that mentioned veneration of plants and animals. This is there to illustrate both the extent of things that are venerated, and the meaning of the practice, and to further distinguish it from true worship. By honoring plants and animals, we honor their Creator. In so doing, we do not confuse the animals with the God who made them. It is much the same with the saints, icons, and so forth. Perhaps there is a better way to say this in the article? User:Wesley 16:27, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
See other meanings of words starting from letter:
Words begining with Veneration:
Veneration
Veneration
Veneration_of_saints
Veneration_of_saints
Veneration_of_the_Cross
Veneration_of_the_dead
Veneration
(Latin ''veneratio'', Greek language δουλια ''dulia'') In traditional Christian churches (for example, Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy), veneration, or veneration of saints, is a special act of honoring a dead person who has been identified as singular in the traditions of the religion, and through them honoring God who made them and in whose image they are made. Veneration is often shown outwardly by respectfully bowing or making the sign of the cross before a saint's icon, relics, or statue. These items are often also kissed. In Catholic and Orthodox theology, veneration is a type of honor distinct from the worship due to God alone. Church theologians have long adopted the terms ''latria'' for the sacrificial worship due to God alone, and ''dulia'' for the veneration given to saints and icons. (Catholic theology also includes the term ''hyperdulia'' for the type of veneration specifically paid to Mary, mother of Jesus, in Catholic tradition.) This distinction is spelled out in the dogmatic conclusions of the Seventh Ecumenical Council (A.D. 787), which also decreed that iconoclasm (forbidding icons and their veneration) is a heresy that amounts to a denial of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. In some other religious traditions, veneration is considered to amount to the heresy of idolatry, and the related practice of canonization amounts to the heresy of apotheosis. Protestant theology usually denies that any real distinction between veneration and worship can be made, and claims that the practice of veneration distracts the Christian soul from its true object, the worship of God. However, many Anglicans do venerate saints. In the tradition of Green theology (or Creation-centered theology) animals, plants, and other parts of nature may be said to be ''venerated'' simply by taking good care of them, thereby showing honor and respect for God who made them. Creation (theology), being regarded as an icon of the Creator, is a valid object of veneration. Philology, to venerate derives from the Latin verb, ''venerari'', meaning to regard with reverence and respect. This word derives from the same root as the name ''Venus (mythology)'', the goddess of love of the ancient Roman pantheon. == See also == *Genuflection *Pilgrimage *Hagiography *Iconography *Idolatry in Christianity *Prayer *Blessed Virgin Mary Eastern Orthodoxy Roman Catholic worship Sainthood
Veneration
I changed the link from "relics" to "relic", then someone changed it back again, and now Wesley has changed it to "relic" for the second time. Will this be an editing war? I also completed the sentence, then someone changed it back to an incomplete sentence without the highlighted word veneration; now I've done the same sentence-completion again. User:Michael Hardy 22:10 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC) ---- Apologetics I removed the following two sentences when I refactored to create a new apologetics section. I found it difficult to formulate the apologetics section; the critical view is very simple, and doesn't really need elaboration, but I fear that may make the whole section appear POV slanted towards the historic Church. However, these traditions expressly reserve worship for God alone, as expressed both in their doctrinal statements and in the texts of the prayers offered together in the Divine Liturgy or the Roman Mass, Vespers, Matins, etc. The practice of veneration is widely considered by Protestants to be idolatry. ---- iconoclasm I'm not sure if the Seventh Ecumenical Council link is sufficiently relevant, but if so, the probably iconoclasm should be there as well ? : Good point. I've tried to indicate the 7th E. Council's significance, and included a link to iconoclasm too. User:Wesley 18:02, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC) I believe that "traditional and modern apologists" is not actually the same as Catholics. I think that most of the Orthodox would be included. I suspect there might be a very few others as well, but primarily Catholics and Orthodox. Note, however, that some of the traditional apologists predate the Catholic/Orthdodox split (ie, the Great Schism), and so I tend to call them simply traditional Christians. That is, I believe some parts of this debate go back to the Iconoclasm, and even before.- # 209.8.184.25 Nontheless, it's perfectly possible to describe this without insisting on labelling. "Apologists" is not particularly helpful in this context. -- User:Binky : I gather that "labelling" is pejorative; would you kindly explain further? Also, I gather that apologist is pejorative; would you mind also explaining that a bit? (I ask because I thought that apologist was a term for a person presenting an argument, without implied criticism of the person presenting the argument.) I did not intend to criticize the "apologists" for presenting their argument at all. I simply wanted to describe whom I was talking about, and what they argued. : Oh, and I was alluding to both traditional and modern "apologists" as an allusion to the fact this particular apology (argument) for the practice is not actually new; it is quite an old one (I think ?). They are simply rehashing (or recapitulating if you will) the traditional argument (but I don't mean to denigrate them for so doing). : What is there now is very awkward. "Critics charge..." then "Those without objection...". How about "Critics charge..." "Defenders argue" -- much less awkward, and quite parallel (which parallelism is, I think, appropriate). Or even "Critics charge..." and "Defenders counter...". That sounds a familiar point/counterpoint to my ears. : Then, my observation that the position of the defense is actually a restatement of an ancient apology may be inserted later, somehow, rather than at the start of the sentence; I think that would be better anyway. I'm willing to take a shot at it if you'd like (and perhaps post it here rather than in the article). : Or, maybe the whole argument doesn't belong here, as it appears in some length on the idolatry page... :) :: Without looking at the current article, I agree that "apologist" is not an inherently pejorative term. Veneration of icons and relics goes back to the earliest days of the church, as soon as there began to be martyrs; According to some, St. Luke painted the first icons; then there's Eusebius' account of the "icon not made with hands" that Jesus is said to have sent to King Abgar. Veneration of icons wasn't really defended until the 7th or 8th century, because it wasn't really attacked until then; not coincidentally, this was also during the first rise of Islam. The greatest defenders at the time were St. John of Damascus and St. Theodore the Studite; this history is I think covered in the iconoclasm article. The real question is whether to "recapitulate" the whole argument here, or just mention it briefly and point elsewhere. Personally, it might make the most sense to have the full length version in the iconoclasm article, and have this article and the idolatry article mention the issue and point readers to where they can find the full length version. Does that sound reasonable? Other suggestions? User:Wesley 18:05, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC) == Veneration of plants and animals == Someone asked in an edit comment about the intent of the sentence or paragraph that mentioned veneration of plants and animals. This is there to illustrate both the extent of things that are venerated, and the meaning of the practice, and to further distinguish it from true worship. By honoring plants and animals, we honor their Creator. In so doing, we do not confuse the animals with the God who made them. It is much the same with the saints, icons, and so forth. Perhaps there is a better way to say this in the article? User:Wesley 16:27, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
See other meanings of words starting from letter:
V
Words begining with Veneration:
Veneration
Veneration
Veneration_of_saints
Veneration_of_saints
Veneration_of_the_Cross
Veneration_of_the_dead
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