Someone familiar with Urdu should transliterate the example phrases into IPA. User:Jeeves 02:38, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC) == Intro == Sirf ''ek'' sawaal... Shouldn't we mention the place of origin of Urdu more definitively than simply 'South Asia' in the beginning? It originated in the north-west regions of the Indian sub-continent around what is now Lahore and New Delhi (switching in between). --User:LordSuryaofShropshire 21:03, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC) : Yar you are completely right. But see there are contending theories about it. The origins are places in Hyderabad, Deccan; Maharashtra, Bihar, Dehli, Punjab and Sindh. Although I think the evidence for Dehli is the strongest. SO I think we should change it to that :) User:Aalahazrat 00:54, 2004 Apr 17 (UTC) :: Theek hai. To sakht hai. Dilli... laykin ek aur jaghe mein likhna chahiye ki zaraa hi shakk hai scholarly circles mein. --User:LordSuryaofShropshire 16:24, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC) == Speakers of Urdu == I have edited the 'speakership' sections to reflect the best data available concerning Urdu as a mother tongue. As a first language Punjabi is overwhelmingly in the plurality in Pakistan at about 48% with Urdu, though official, seeing only 8% of the country as native speakers ([http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html|1]). As for speakers in India, while it is tempting to simply say that Muslims speak Urdu and Hindus speak Hindi, this is a woefully misguided and inaccurate statement. I'll explain... If you hear, say, an interview with Amitabh Bachan or Shah Rukh Khan, their usage of 'Urdu,' or 'Arabo-Persian' words, is the same, and might more accurately be termed Urdu than Hindi. The same phenomenon can be observed in many 'Hindi-speaking' communities across the Northern belt. Surely there is a leaning towards Hindi in heavily Hindu areas, such as Benares. But Hindus living in Hyderabad, or Lucknow, do not speak a noticeably different blend of Hindustani than their Muslim neighbors, certainly not enough to term them speakers of two different languages! Thus, I amended the statement in that passage to say that Muslims, though perhaps feeling more of a cultural pull towards Urdu, are not alone in being native speakers. Also, I feel a small reference to Premchand might be in order, not merely because he is Hindu, though that is a powerful message that Urdu can serve as a powerful unifier between communities, but also because he is practically the father of the ''afsana'' and possibly the best Urdu short-story writer there is. Urdu is obviously primarily Muslim in literary flavor, if it is anything, but its grand history should be given full display and it should be noted that some of its greatest fans are Hindus. Ghazals sell in Hindu-majority India. --User:LordSuryaofShropshire 04:25, Jun 12, 2004 (UTC) == Recent anon edit on order of Urdu vocabulary sources == An anon recently re-ordered the list of languages from which Urdu takes vocabulary to put Hindi last. That sounds like a POV attempt to de-emphasize their relationship, but I don't really know for sure, as modern languages really aren't my thing.User:Kukkurovaca|User talk:Kukkurovaca 07:09, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC) : It certainly was. I remember reading an Urdu scholar's essay in which he said that about half of modern Urdu is Prakrit-Sanskrit (i.e. Hindi) in origin. Well, it doesn't really matter in the end. I believe the emphasis on their (Hindi and Urdu's) sisterhood in Hindustani is enough for the educated reader to discern the truth.--User:LordSuryaofShropshire 16:58, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC) == Speaking of Urdu as first language but not as a motner tongue == I am myself example of a person who don't have urdu as a mothertongue but speak urdu as my first language. I have first hand knowledge in Pakistan. It is a fact of life here which no body disbutes as a fact (Good phenomenon or bad is different) but it is a very big factor here. specially in urban areas (I live in Peshawar). this u can ask "ANY" Pakistani living in urban areas. plz before removeing or re-editing ask any pakistani about it. and plz also I will be great ful if any body tells me how to settle any disbute over any information (if in the case of any disbute) and who has the authority to decide the disbute. thanks : Hey Zain.... look, first off, welcome, and when you write comments in Talk you can add four '~'s afterwards, which will display your name and edit time. Secondly, disputes are settled as one might hope in a small democracy, through discussion. We strive for neutral points of view, so you'll often see NPOV or POV (neutral point of view or point-of-view) raised as problems with articles. : To deal with this situation. I am quite familiar with the situation in Pakistan and am appreciative of the changes being wrought in the linguistic fabric. However, it is still a fact that as of the most recent and reliable census the easy plurality, over 45%, of Pakistanis speak Punjabi as a first tongue. As you have, of course, pointed out it is also a fact that quite quickly more and more Punjabi Pakistani (or Pashto-speaking, for that matter) kids are being raised with Urdu as their ''primary'' tongue. The most definitive 'proof' is still a citation. Since this is attempting to be an amateur but high-quality encyclopaedia, phrases like "people say" are usually untenable unless it can be proven. Hence, an editor, like you or I, cannot state that merely his/her proximity to a subject entitles him/her to greater authority. We ask for citations from encyclopaedias, books, notable journalists, statistics, verifiable data sources. Also, the nature of the sources is scrutinized and the prejudices examined for reasonableness. Hence, we work together to find compromise. : As it stands, here are the issues I have with your amendment of the section on speakership... you say this:
See other meanings of words starting from letter:
Words begining with Urdu_language:
Urdu_language
Urdu_language
Urdu language
Urdu language
Someone familiar with Urdu should transliterate the example phrases into IPA. User:Jeeves 02:38, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC) == Intro == Sirf ''ek'' sawaal... Shouldn't we mention the place of origin of Urdu more definitively than simply 'South Asia' in the beginning? It originated in the north-west regions of the Indian sub-continent around what is now Lahore and New Delhi (switching in between). --User:LordSuryaofShropshire 21:03, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC) : Yar you are completely right. But see there are contending theories about it. The origins are places in Hyderabad, Deccan; Maharashtra, Bihar, Dehli, Punjab and Sindh. Although I think the evidence for Dehli is the strongest. SO I think we should change it to that :) User:Aalahazrat 00:54, 2004 Apr 17 (UTC) :: Theek hai. To sakht hai. Dilli... laykin ek aur jaghe mein likhna chahiye ki zaraa hi shakk hai scholarly circles mein. --User:LordSuryaofShropshire 16:24, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC) == Speakers of Urdu == I have edited the 'speakership' sections to reflect the best data available concerning Urdu as a mother tongue. As a first language Punjabi is overwhelmingly in the plurality in Pakistan at about 48% with Urdu, though official, seeing only 8% of the country as native speakers ([http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html|1]). As for speakers in India, while it is tempting to simply say that Muslims speak Urdu and Hindus speak Hindi, this is a woefully misguided and inaccurate statement. I'll explain... If you hear, say, an interview with Amitabh Bachan or Shah Rukh Khan, their usage of 'Urdu,' or 'Arabo-Persian' words, is the same, and might more accurately be termed Urdu than Hindi. The same phenomenon can be observed in many 'Hindi-speaking' communities across the Northern belt. Surely there is a leaning towards Hindi in heavily Hindu areas, such as Benares. But Hindus living in Hyderabad, or Lucknow, do not speak a noticeably different blend of Hindustani than their Muslim neighbors, certainly not enough to term them speakers of two different languages! Thus, I amended the statement in that passage to say that Muslims, though perhaps feeling more of a cultural pull towards Urdu, are not alone in being native speakers. Also, I feel a small reference to Premchand might be in order, not merely because he is Hindu, though that is a powerful message that Urdu can serve as a powerful unifier between communities, but also because he is practically the father of the ''afsana'' and possibly the best Urdu short-story writer there is. Urdu is obviously primarily Muslim in literary flavor, if it is anything, but its grand history should be given full display and it should be noted that some of its greatest fans are Hindus. Ghazals sell in Hindu-majority India. --User:LordSuryaofShropshire 04:25, Jun 12, 2004 (UTC) == Recent anon edit on order of Urdu vocabulary sources == An anon recently re-ordered the list of languages from which Urdu takes vocabulary to put Hindi last. That sounds like a POV attempt to de-emphasize their relationship, but I don't really know for sure, as modern languages really aren't my thing.User:Kukkurovaca|User talk:Kukkurovaca 07:09, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC) : It certainly was. I remember reading an Urdu scholar's essay in which he said that about half of modern Urdu is Prakrit-Sanskrit (i.e. Hindi) in origin. Well, it doesn't really matter in the end. I believe the emphasis on their (Hindi and Urdu's) sisterhood in Hindustani is enough for the educated reader to discern the truth.--User:LordSuryaofShropshire 16:58, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC) == Speaking of Urdu as first language but not as a motner tongue == I am myself example of a person who don't have urdu as a mothertongue but speak urdu as my first language. I have first hand knowledge in Pakistan. It is a fact of life here which no body disbutes as a fact (Good phenomenon or bad is different) but it is a very big factor here. specially in urban areas (I live in Peshawar). this u can ask "ANY" Pakistani living in urban areas. plz before removeing or re-editing ask any pakistani about it. and plz also I will be great ful if any body tells me how to settle any disbute over any information (if in the case of any disbute) and who has the authority to decide the disbute. thanks : Hey Zain.... look, first off, welcome, and when you write comments in Talk you can add four '~'s afterwards, which will display your name and edit time. Secondly, disputes are settled as one might hope in a small democracy, through discussion. We strive for neutral points of view, so you'll often see NPOV or POV (neutral point of view or point-of-view) raised as problems with articles. : To deal with this situation. I am quite familiar with the situation in Pakistan and am appreciative of the changes being wrought in the linguistic fabric. However, it is still a fact that as of the most recent and reliable census the easy plurality, over 45%, of Pakistanis speak Punjabi as a first tongue. As you have, of course, pointed out it is also a fact that quite quickly more and more Punjabi Pakistani (or Pashto-speaking, for that matter) kids are being raised with Urdu as their ''primary'' tongue. The most definitive 'proof' is still a citation. Since this is attempting to be an amateur but high-quality encyclopaedia, phrases like "people say" are usually untenable unless it can be proven. Hence, an editor, like you or I, cannot state that merely his/her proximity to a subject entitles him/her to greater authority. We ask for citations from encyclopaedias, books, notable journalists, statistics, verifiable data sources. Also, the nature of the sources is scrutinized and the prejudices examined for reasonableness. Hence, we work together to find compromise. : As it stands, here are the issues I have with your amendment of the section on speakership... you say this:
Although urdu is not Mother tongue of many pakistanis but more and more people are using urdu as their first language instead of punjabi and other languages specially in urban areas. (very much like English language overtaking Irish language but at a lot slower pace).: First of all, the wording isn't as clear as it might be. The comparison to English and Irish language, as well, I believe should be further examined and is in reality not necessary here. The dynamics are slightly different there. Moreover, however, this has ''already been noted'' farther below in the paragraph:
It is, however, the language of prestige and all signage and is taught as compulsory in the Pakistani school system; it is, more and more, becoming the first language of even many ethnically Punjabi Pakistanis as time goes by.: You are wise to mention urbanity and its greater tendency towards Urdu. So I contend the section should be changed thusly:
It is, however, the language of prestige and all signage, taught as compulsory in the Pakistani school system. As time goes by, more and more Pakistanis of Punjabi language or other background are speaking Urdu as a first language. It is evident that the native speakership of Urdu is increasing more quickly in urban centers.: I hope this meets your standards. --User:LordSuryaofShropshire 21:31, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC) == Thanks for ur guidence and plz also help me how to write in a thread == Thanks for your guidence Actually only thing which I wanted to say was that in Pakistan ther are number of pakistanis who know urdu better then any other language they can speak although their mothertongue is not urdu. Actually my english is not that good so I think I was not able to edit it in a proper way. Second I am more used to open forums and open source software forums where I Can Enter what I feel without taking considering a lot about its accouracy. Although I tried to be cautious on wikipedia but I think it was not enough. Probably because it was my first day editing Articles and at maximum 2nd day browsing wikipedia. and plz also help me how to enter the response in thread. so it won't become a new messege but will become a part of the subject. thanks --User:Zain engineer 16:06, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC) == Example IPA == I solicited the pronunciations shown from a Sindhi speaker who said he had some familiarity with Urdu, and he assured me that he was pronouncing the words in the correct way for Urdu. However, my transcriptions should be checked if possible by someone who knows Urdu and IPA or someone who knows IPA and a native speaker of Urdu. User:Jeeves 00:00, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC) ==Quoting Poetry== I would like to suggest that we have the Urdu [and/Farsi] text of poetry alongside the translation. This could be in English script or in Urdu. English might be better. What say?--User:IFaqeer 03:46, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC) : Nah, the purpose of this page is to give information on the use of Urdu, not translations of poetry here. Translations would be better suited for the Urdu poetry page. That page is meant for describing urdu poetry in great detail. Its odd that the information on the Urdu language page on poetry exceeds the Urdu poetry page. -- User:FarazSyed 20:17, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::Was not talking about whole pieces of poetry, but for little bits that ''are'' quoted already, here as well as on other pages like Urdu poetry, List of Urdu poets, and so on.User:IFaqeer—User:IFaqeer User talk:IFaqeer 21:09, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC) == Urdu, Hindi, Hindustani ... and Bollywood == As I have said on the comment on the Hindustani article, the description there and here on the whole issue is about the best I have seen. However, saying that "So Urdu speakers will find their own language in the Hindi cinema..." is over-simplifying the issue. It is not just because the languages are close that Urdu speakers just happen to find their own language in Hindi cinema. Bollywood started out with and continues to have a major contribution from poets and other literateurs that are also major players in the world of Urdu literature. And I say this not just out of chauvinism (or at least not consciously :D), but because if we get it just right (as Wikipedia seems to have done in the case of Hindustani), it really would help document a side of the South Asian experience that is not recognized properly in most cases. And the phrase "Hindi Cinema", which I admit is a common way to refer to Bollywood is also problematic. I would recommend using the latter term.--User:IFaqeer 19:03, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC) Just reverted some POV additions to this section. "Not doing justice" to Urdu combined with the phrase "[so-]called Hindi speakers" implies a pro-Urdu, anti-Hindi bias that has no place here, in this section especially. If the Hindi speakers in question think they are speaking Hindi, and other Hindi speakers agree, who are we to say they aren't? It would be as absurd as saying the actors on Pakistani television were "so-called Urdu speakers" because speakers of Hindi can understand their dialogue. --User:Skoosh 22:12, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Hindustani == We really need to synchronize the material here under "Urdu, Hindi, Hindustani" and under the Hindustani entry. I really, really liked what was under the latter entry--till I saw the material here. It would be a good thing to help both improve each other.--User:IFaqeer 19:05, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC) : Well, there's no problem in saying "Bollywood" as opposed to "Hindi cinema" except for the fact that many people, indeed even Bollywood writers and producers themselves, see their movies as being in Hindi. For this reason, it makes the fact that Urdu speakers easily understand Bollywood more significant. If we just said Bollywood and didn't mention that its contributors don't view it as a Hindi industry, an outsider would just be like, "What's the big deal?" Also, There are more native Urdu speakers in India than in Pakistan, which means that not qualifying Bollywood would lead to erroneous conclusions by those ignorant of the facts that India is somehow all-Hindi speaking, which is utter rubbish, since in spite of Hindi-push in schools some of the world's great Urdu scholars are Indian (and often not exclusively Muslim, like Gopi Chand Narang).--User:LordSuryaofShropshire 22:49, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC) :: No argument with that you say. Urdu is a language and a culture; not a religion. But I think what you are referring to is my comment that saying that "So Urdu speakers will find their own language in the Hindi cinema..." is an over-simplification. This ''is'', after all, an encyclopedia, isn't it?--User:IFaqeer 23:09, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC) ::: You needn't keep reminding me that this is encyclopaedic writing. I'm aware. As for the sentence "So Urdu speakers will find their own language in the Hindi cinema." I didn't even write that. The grammar is faulty. I'll change it.--User:LordSuryaofShropshire 08:20, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC) ::::Not saying you done it, Laad Saab; just asking for your help and input--which I have come to value--in improving it.--User:IFaqeer 23:29, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC) == "Hindi Base of Grammar" or Sanskrit/Prakrit? == Just that.--User:IFaqeer 22:26, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC) == Politeness == "Tum" is definitely not plular; and Aap is also very often not. I am going to revert—unless someone can express a real and well-argued objection.User:IFaqeer—User:IFaqeer | User talk:IFaqeer 18:49, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC) == Urdu and the Middle East == I've lived in the Middle East for about 12 years. The Middle East has a very large number of expats (infact, they are majority). As such, most shop keepers prefer to learn Urdu because of the large population that can understand Urdu/Hindi and the fact that Urdu shares some words with Arabic and English too. So, could someone write about its use abroad? I also know that it can be understood in some Chinese villages along the border with India and Pakistan. There is a sizable Urdu speaking population in North America and Europe too. :Here's a very interesting link in this regard: :http://guyanafriends.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/860604972/m/77110386221 :Not the Middle East, but definitely outside the subcontinent.User:IFaqeer—User:IFaqeer User talk:IFaqeer 06:27, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC) ==Mahmud Ghaznavi== Mahmud Ghaznavi as founder of Urdu? Never heard of that one. Let's get some documentation before we put that in. Reverting.User:IFaqeer—User:IFaqeer User talk:IFaqeer 19:05, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC) :If I can put my 2 cents in as a linguist, that seems extremely unlikely. No constructed language has ever been naturalized, and creating a "natural language" is far beyond the capability of a single person or even a group of people. The person who added that stuff was either yanking our collective chain or is seriously misinformed. Even if e were to produce "documentation", I would be highly suspicious of it. A language created by a committee that went on to become a major natural language...I would think I'd have heard of this in my classes, as it would be quite a singular event. User:Jeeves 21:53, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Afsana vs. Afsaana== I just did a little copy editing on this article's literature and poetry section, but as I don't speak Urdu, I wasn't sure which version of this word (Afsana vs. Afsaana) was more standard. Could some native speaker remove one form from this article? User:Jarsyl 05:26, 2005 Jun 1 (UTC) == Article oddities == First off, is there a valid reason for the infobox being reduced to just the name and the SIL code? Secondly, why is this article not at Urdu? Since there is nothing to disambiguate "Urdu" from, there is no need for the "language". See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Languages#Structure for applicable guidelines.User:Karmosin User talk:Karmosin 22:10, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC) :Good question. The table shrunk in an unexplained edit [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Urdu_language&diff=next&oldid=12326541] so I have put it back. --User:Henrygb 12:37, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
See other meanings of words starting from letter:
U
UA | UB | UC | UD | UE | UF | UG | UH | UI | UJ | UK | UL | UM | UN | UO | UP | UR | US | UT | UW | UX | UY | UZ |Words begining with Urdu_language:
Urdu_language
Urdu_language
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