Swedish language - meaning of word
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Swedish language



Swedish (''svenska'' ) is a North Germanic language spoken predominantly in Sweden, in part of Finland, and on the autonomous Åland islands, by more than nine million people. It is Mutually intelligible languages with the other Scandinavian languages, Danish language and Norwegian language. Standard Swedish is the national language that evolved from the Central Swedish dialects in the 19th century and was well-established by the beginning of the 20th century. While distinct regional Variety (linguistics) descended from the older rural dialects still exist, the spoken and written language is uniform and standardized, with a 99% literacy rate among adults. Some of the genuine dialects differ considerably from the standard language in grammar and vocabulary and are not always mutually intelligible with Standard Swedish. These dialects are confined to rural areas and are usually spoken by small numbers of people with low social mobility. Though not facing imminent Extinct language, such dialects have been in decline during the past century, despite the fact that they are well researched and their use is often encouraged by local authorities. Swedish is distinguished by its prosody (linguistics), which differs considerably between varieties. It includes both lexical stress (linguistics) and tone (linguistics) qualities. The language has a comparatively large vowel inventory, with nine separate vowels that are distinguished by Length (phonetics) and to some degree quality, making up a total of 17 vowel phonemes. Swedish is also notable for the voiceless dorso-palatal velar fricative, a sound found in many dialects, including the more prestigious forms of the standard language. Though similar to other sounds with distinct labial qualities, it has so far not been found in any other language. ==Classification and related languages== Swedish is an Indo-European language belonging to the North Germanic language branch of the Germanic languages. Together with Danish language and Norwegian language it belongs to the East Scandinavian group, separating it from the West Scandinavian Faroese language, Icelandic language and Norwegian language. More recent analyses divide the North Germanic languages into an ''Insular Scandinavian'' and ''Mainland Scandinavian'' languages, grouping Norwegian with Danish and Swedish based on mutual intelligibility and the fact that Norwegian has been heavily influenced in particular by Danish during the last millennium and diverged from Faroese and Icelandic. By generally accepted criteria of mutual intelligibility, the Mainland Scandinavian languages could very well be considered to be dialects of a common Scandinavian language. Due to several hundred years of sometimes quite intense rivalry between Denmark and Sweden, including a long string of wars in the 16th and 17th centuries, and the nationalist ideas that emerged during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the languages have separate Orthography, dictionaries, and regulatory bodies. The dialects of Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish are thus more accurately described as a dialect continuum of Scandinavian dialects, and some dialects on the border between Norway and Sweden, such as those of western Värmland, take up a middle ground between the national standard languages. == Geographic distribution == Swedish is the national language of Sweden, the first language for the overwhelming majority of roughly eight million Sweden-born inhabitants and acquired by one million immigrants. In mainland Finland Swedish is spoken as a first language by a relatively small minority of about 5.5% or about 300,000 people. The Finland-Swedish minority is concentrated to the coastal areas and archipelagos of southern and western Finland. In these areas, Swedish is often the dominating language. In the municipality of Korsnäs (97% Swedish speakers), Närpes and Larsmo, Swedish is the sole administrative language. There is considerable migration between the Nordic countries, but due to the similarity between the languages and cultures, expatriates generally Assimilation (sociology) quickly and do not stand out as a group. According to the 2004 US census some 67,000 people age five and over were reported as Swedish speakers, though without any information on actual language proficiency. === Official status === Sweden has had a comparatively homogeneous culture, with Swedish the dominant language for most of its modern history. Language minorities such as Sami people have been small and often marginalized, during the 19th and early 20th century even actively suppressed. Although Swedish has been the administrative and liturgical language since the early 16th century, it has not been deemed necessary to formally prescribe it as the official language of Sweden. Swedish is the sole official language of Åland, an autonomous province under the sovereignty of Finland, where 95% of the 26,000 inhabitants speak Swedish as a first language. In Finland, Swedish is the second official language alongside Finnish language. Swedish is also one of the official languages of the European Union. ===Former language minorities=== [[Image:Gammalsvenskby.PNG|thumb|left|Map of Ukraine, with pointers to ''Gammalsvenskby'']] [[Image:Estonian archipelago (Saaremaa and Hiiumaa).jpg|thumb|right|Map of the Estonian islands which formerly housed "''Coastal Swede''" populations]] Formerly, there were Swedish-speaking communities in Estonia, particularly on the islands (Hiiumaa, Saaremaa and Vormsi) along the coast of the Baltic Sea. The Swedish-speaking minority was represented in parliament, and entitled to use their native language in parliamentary debates. After the loss of the Baltic territories to Russia in the early 18th century, around 1,000 Swedish speakers were forced to march to Ukraine, where they founded a village, ''Gammalsvenskby'' ("Old Swedish Village"), north of the Crimea. A few elderly people in the village still speak Swedish and observe the holidays of the Swedish calendar, although the dialect is most likely facing extinction . In Estonia, the small remaining Swedish community was very well treated between the World War I and World War II World Wars. Municipalities with a Swedish majority, mainly found along the coast, had Swedish as the administrative language and Swedish-Estonian culture saw an upswing. However, most Swedish-speaking people fled to Sweden at the end of World War II when Estonia was occupied by the Soviet Union. Only a handful of older speakers remain today. === Regulatory bodies === There are no official regulatory institutions for the Swedish language. The Swedish Language Council (''Svenska språknämnden'') has semi-official status as such and is funded by the Government of Sweden, but does not attempt to enforce control of the language, as for instance the Académie française does. Among the many organizations that make up the Swedish Language Council, the Swedish Academy (established 1786) is arguably the most influential. Its primary instruments are the dictionary ''Svenska Akademiens Ordlista'' and ''Svenska Akademiens Ordbok'', in addition to various books on grammar, spelling and manual of style. Even though the dictionaries are sometimes used as official decrees of the language, their main purpose is to describe current usage. In Finland a special branch of the ''Research Institute for the Languages of Finland'' has official status as the regulatory body for Swedish in Finland. Among its highest priorities is to maintain intelligibility with the language spoken in Sweden. It has published ''Finlandssvensk ordbok'', a dictionary about the differences between Swedish in Finland and in Sweden from their point of view. === Standard Swedish === Standard Swedish, which is derived from the dialects spoken in the capital region around Stockholm, is the language used by virtually all Swedes and most Finland-Swedes. The Swedish term most often used for the standard language is rikssvenska ("National Swedish") and to a lesser extent högsvenska ("High Swedish"), though the latter term is limited to Swedish spoken in Finland and is seldom used in Sweden. There are many regional varieties of the standard language that are specific to geographical areas of varying size (regions, provinces of Sweden, cities, towns, etc.). While these varieties are often influenced by the genuine dialects, their grammatical and phonological structure adheres closely to those of the Central Swedish dialects. In mass media it is not uncommon for journalists to speak with a distinct regional accent, but the most common pronunciation and the one perceived as the most formal is still Central Standard Swedish. Though this terminology and its definitions are long since established among linguists, most Swedes are unaware of the distinction and its historical background, and often refer to the regional varieties as "dialects". In a poll that was recently conducted by [http://www.hui.se/ HUI] , the attitudes of Swedes to the use of certain varieties by salesmen revealed that 54% believed that ''rikssvenska'' was the variety they would prefer to hear when speaking with salesmen over the phone, even though several "dialects" such as ''gotländska'' or ''skånska'' were provided as alternatives in the poll. === Finland-Swedish === [[image:Finswe2 b.gif|thumb|right|Map indicating areas where speakers of Finland-Swedish constitute a majority.]]Finland was under Swedish control from the mid 14th century until the loss of the Finnish territories to Russia in 1809. Swedish was the sole administrative language until 1902 as well as the dominant language of culture and education until Finnish independence in 1917. As of 2004, 5.53% of the total population speak Swedish as their first language, according to official statistics. Since an educational reform in the 1970s, both Swedish and Finnish have been compulsory school subjects in Mainland Finland, and both were until 2004 mandatory in the final examinations. Education in the pupil's first language is officially called "mother tongue" — ''"modersmål"'' in Swedish or ''"äidinkieli"'' in Finnish — and education in the other language is referred to as "the other domestic language" — ''"andra inhemska språket"'' in Swedish, ''"toinen kotimainen kieli"'' in Finnish. The introduction of mandatory education in Swedish was chiefly intended as a step to avoid further decrease of the number of Swedish speakers and to avoid creating language-barriers between the two spoken languages. Finnish, a Finno-Ugric languages language, is fundamentally different from Swedish in grammar and vocabulary and there is no mutual understanding between the two. However, there is a considerable amount of borrowings from Swedish in the Finnish language. One example of the two languages merging in an unofficial sense is the classic Helsinki slang, ("''Stadin slangi''") which was born in the capital city of Finland in the early and middle 20th century, when both languages were almost equally widely spoken in the city area. === Dialects === The linguistic definition of a Swedish dialect is a local variant that has not been heavily influenced by the standard language and that can trace a separate development all the way back to Old Norse. Many of the genuine rural dialects, such as those of Orsa in Dalarna or Närpes in Österbotten, have very distinct phonetic and grammatical features, such as plural forms of verbs or archaic case (linguistics) inflections. These dialects can be near-incomprehensible to most Swedes, and most of their speakers are also fluent in Standard Swedish. The different dialects are often so localized that they are limited to individual parishes and are referred to by Swedish linguists as ''sockenmål'' (lit. "parish speech"). They are generally separated into six major groups, with common characteristics of prosody, grammar and vocabulary. One or several examples from each group are given here. Though each example is intended to be also representative of the nearby dialects, the actual number of dialects is several hundred if each individual community is considered separately. The Swedish terms for different ''mål''; "(styles of) speech", is used here. *''Norrländska mål'' — Norrland, the northern half of Sweden :1. Överkalix, Norrbotten; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Norrland/Norrbotten/Overkalix/yw.html younger female] :2. Burträsk, Västerbotten; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Norrland/Vasterbotten/Burtrask/ow.html older female] :3. Aspås, Jämtland; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Norrland/Jamtland/Aspas/yw.html younger female] :4. Färila, Hälsingland; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Norrland/Halsingland/Farila/om.html older male] *''Sveamål'' — Svealand :5. Älvdalen, Dalarna; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Svealand/Dalarna/Alvdalen/ow.html older female] :6. Gräsö, Uppland; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Svealand/Uppland/Graso/om.html older male] :7. Sorunda, Södermanland; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Svealand/Sodermanland/Sorunda/ym.html younger male] :8. Köla, Värmland [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Svealand/Varmland/Kola/yw.html younger female] :9. Viby, Närke; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Svealand/Narke/Viby/om.html older male] *''Gotländska mål'' — Gotland :10. Sproge, Gotland; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Gotaland/Gotland/Sproge/yw.html younger female] *''Östsvenska mål'' — Åland and mainland Finland :11. Närpes, Österbotten; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Finland/Osterbotten/Narpes/yw.html younger female] :12. Dragsfjärd, Åboland; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Finland/Aboland/Dragsfjard/om.html older male] :13. Borgå, Nyland; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Finland/Nyland/Borga/ym.html younger male] *''Götamål'' — western and northern Götaland, traditionally centered in Västergötland :14. Orust, Bohuslän; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Gotaland/Bohuslan/Orust/om.html older male] :15. Floby, Västergötland; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Gotaland/Vastergotland/Floby/ow.html older female] :16. Rimforsa, Östergötland; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Gotaland/Ostergotland/Rimforsa/ow.html older female] :17. Årstad-Hedberg, Halland; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Gotaland/Halland/Arstad/ym.html younger male] :18. Stenberga, Småland; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Gotaland/Smaland/Stenberga/yw.html younger female] *''Sydsvenska mål'' — southernmost Sweden, including Blekinge, southern Halland and southern Småland :19. Jämshög, Blekinge; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Gotaland/Blekinge/Jamshog/ow.html older female] :20. Bara, Skåne; [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/Gotaland/Skane/Bara/om.html older male] All dialect samples are from [http://swedia.ling.umu.se/ SweDia], a research project on Swedish dialects available for download (though with information in Swedish only), with many more samples from 100 different dialects with recordings from four different speakers; older female, older male, younger female and younger male. ===New dialects=== ''Rinkebysvenska'' (after Rinkeby, a heavily segregated suburb of northern Stockholm) is a common name for varieties of Swedish spoken by second and third generation immigrants, especially among younger speakers, primarily in western suburbs of Stockholm and to a lesser degree in Malmö and Gothenburg. There is no consensus among linguists whether Rinkeby Swedish and similar varieties should be denominated as dialects or sociolects. The Swedish linguist Ulla-Britt Kotsinas has described these varieties as being most prominent among teenagers living in suburbs with a large immigrant population and particularly young boys. In this context it can be seen as an expression of a youth culture specific to these suburbs. Rinkeby Swedish is however not limited to the children of immigrants and is often surprisingly similar to variants in geographically distant immigrant-dominated suburbs. In a survey made by Kotsinas, foreign learners of Swedish were asked to identify the native language and time spent in Sweden of several teenage speakers living in Stockholm. The survey showed that the participants had great difficulty in accurately guessing the origins of the speakers and that they underestimated the time spent in Sweden. The greatest difficulty proved to be identifying the speech of a boy whose parents were both Swedish; only 1,8% guessed his native language correctly. == History == In the 9th century, Old Norse language began to diverge into Old West Norse (Norway and Iceland) and Old East Norse (Sweden and Denmark). In the 12th century, the dialects of Denmark and Sweden began to diverge, becoming Old Danish and Old Swedish in the 13th century. All were heavily influenced by Low German during the medieval period. Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian Bokmål are all considered East Scandinavian languages; Swedes usually find it easier to understand Norwegian than Danish, even though the former is descended from Old West Norse, since Norwegian pronunciation is closer to that of Swedish. Though stages of language development are never as sharply delimited as implied here, and should not be taken too literally, the system of subdivisions used in this article is the most commonly used by Swedish linguists and is used for the sake of practicality. ===Old Norse=== [[Image:Old norse, ca 900.PNG|right|250px|thumb|This is the approximate extent of Old Norse language and related languages in the early 10th century. The red area is the distribution of the dialect Old West Norse; the orange area is the spread of the dialect Old East Norse. The pink area is Old Gutnish and the green area is the extent of the other Germanic languages with which Old Norse still retained some mutual intelligibility.]] In the 8th century, the common Germanic language of Scandinavia, Proto-Norse language, had undergone some changes and evolved into Old Norse. This language began to undergo new changes that did not spread to all of Scandinavia, which resulted the appearance of two similar dialects, ''Old West Norse'' (Norway and Iceland) and ''Old East Norse'' (Denmark and Sweden). Old East Norse is in Sweden called ''Runic Swedish'' and in Denmark ''Runic Danish'', but until the 12th century, the dialect was the same in the two countries. The dialects are called ''runic'' due to the fact that the main body of text appears in the runic alphabet. Unlike Proto-Norse, which was written with the Elder Futhark alphabet, Old Norse was written with the Younger Futhark alphabet, which only had 16 letters. Due to the limited number of runes, some runes were used for a range of phonemes, such as the rune for the vowel ''u'' which was also used for the vowels ''o'', ''ø'' and ''y'', and the rune for ''i'' which was also used for ''e''. A change that separated Old East Norse (Runic Swedish/Danish) from Old West Norse was the change of the diphthong ''æi'' (Old West Norse ''ei'') to the monophthong ''e'', as in ''stæin'' to ''sten''. This is reflected in runic inscriptions where the older read ''stain'' and the later ''stin''. There was also a change of ''au'' as in ''dauðr'' into ''ø'' as in ''døðr''. This change is shown in runic inscriptions as a change from ''tauþr'' into ''tuþr''. Moreover, the ''øy'' (Old West Norse ''ey'') diphthong changed into ''ø'' as well, as in the Old Norse word for "island". From 1100 and onwards, the dialect of Denmark began to diverge from that of Sweden. The innovations spread unevenly from Denmark which created a series of minor dialectal boundaries, isoglosses, ranging from Zealand to Svealand. ===Old Swedish=== [[image:Äldre Västgötalagen.jpg|thumb|right|A copy of ''Västgötalagen'' - a code of law of Västergötland from the 1280s, one of the earliest texts in Swedish written in the Latin alphabet.]] Old Swedish is the term used for the medieval Swedish language, starting in 1225. Among the most important documents of the period written in Latin script is the oldest of the provincial code of law, ''Västgötalagen'', of which fragments dated to 1250 have been found. The main influences during this time came with the firm establishment of the Catholic church and various monastery orders, introducing many Greek language and Latin loanwords. With the rise of Hanseatic league power in the late 13th and early 14th century, the influence of Low German and High German became ever more present. The Hanseatic league provided Swedish commerce and administration with a large number of German speaking immigrants. Many became quite influential members of Swedish medieval society, and brought terms from their mother tongue into the vocabulary. Besides a great number of loan words for areas like warfare, trade and administration, general grammatical suffixes and even conjunctions where imported. Many naval terms were also borrowed from Dutch language. Early medieval Swedish was markedly different from the modern language in that it had a more complex case (linguistics) structure and had not yet experienced a reduction of the gender (grammar) system. Nouns, adjectives, pronouns and certain Grammatical number were inflected in four cases; besides the modern nominative and genitive there were also dative and accusative. The gender system resembled that of modern German language, having the genders masculine, feminine and neuter. Most of the masculine and feminine nouns were later grouped together into a common gender. The verb system was also more complex: it included subjunctive and imperative moods and verbs were conjugated according to person as well as number. By the 16th century, the case and gender systems of the colloquial spoken language and the profane literature had been largely reduced to the two cases and two genders of modern Swedish. The old inflections remained common in high prose style until the 18th century, and in some dialects into the early 20th century. A transitional change of the Latin script in the Nordic countries was to spell the letter combination "ae" as æ – and sometimes (when writing hastily?) as a' – though it varied between individuals and regions. The combination "aa" similarly became aa, and "oe" became oe. These three were later to evolve into the separate letters ä, å and ö. ===New Swedish=== [[Image:Gustav_Vasa_Bible_1541.jpg|thumb|right|175px|Front page of the Gustav Vasa Bible of 1541. The title translated to English reads: "The Bible / That is / The Holy Scripture / in Swedish. Printed in Upsala. 1541".]] New Swedish begins with the advent of the printing press and the European Reformation. After assuming power, the new monarch Gustav Vasa ordered a Swedish translation of the Bible. The New Testament came out in 1526, followed by a full Bible translation#Swedish Translations in 1541, usually referred to as the ''Gustav Vasa Bible'', a translation deemed so successful and influential that, with revisions incorporated in successive editions, it remained the most common Bible translation until 1917. The main translators were Laurentius Andreæ and the brothers Laurentius Petri and Olaus Petri. The Vasa Bible is often considered to be a reasonable compromise between old and new; while not adhering to the colloquial spoken language of its day it was not overly conservative in its use of archaic forms. It was a major step towards a more consistent Swedish orthography. It established the use of the vowels "å", "ä", and "ö", and the spelling "ck" in place of "kk", distinguishing it clearly from the Danish Bible, perhaps intentionally due to the ongoing rivalry between the countries. All three translators came from central Sweden which is generally seen as adding specific Central Swedish features to the new Bible. Though it might seem as if the Bible translation set a very powerful precedent for orthographic standards, spelling actually became more inconsistent during the remainder of the century. It was not until the 17th century that spelling began to be discussed, around the time when the first grammars were written. The spelling debate raged on until the early 19th century, and it was not until the latter half of the 19th century that the orthography reached generally acknowledged standards. Capitalization was during this time not standardized. It depended on the authors and their background. Those influenced by German capitalized all nouns, while others capitalized more sparsely. It is also not always apparent which letters are capitalized, due to the Gothic or black letter font which was used to print the Bible. This font was in use until the mid-18th century, when it was gradually replaced with a Latin font (often antiqua). Some important changes in sound during the New Swedish period were the gradual assimilation of several different consonant clusters into and the softening of /g/ and /k/ into /j/ and before front vowels. The voiced dental fricative and voiced velar fricative and were transformed to the corresponding plosives /d/ and /g/. ===Modern Swedish=== [[image:August Strindberg.jpg|thumb|left|August Strindberg, often considered to be the father of modern Swedish literature.]] The period that includes Swedish as it is spoken today is termed ''nusvenska'' (\"Contemporary Swedish\", lit. \"Now Swedish\") in linguistic terminology. With the industrialization and urbanization of Sweden well under way by the last decades of the 19th century, a new breed of authors made their mark on Swedish literature. Many authors, scholars, politicians and other public figures had a great influence on the new national language that was emerging, the most influential of these being August Strindberg (1849-1912). It was during the 20th century that a common, standardized national language became available to all Swedes. The orthography was finally stabilized, and was almost completely uniform, with the exception of some minor deviations, by the time of the spelling reform of 1906. With the exception of plural forms of verbs and a slightly different syntax, particularly in the written language, the language was the same as the Swedish spoken today. The plural verb forms remained, in ever decreasing use, in formal (and particularly written) language until the 1950s, when they were finally officially abolished even from all official recommendations. A very significant change in Swedish occurred in the 1960s, with the so-called ''du-reformen'', "the you-reform". Previously, the proper way to address people of the same or higher social status had been by title and surname. The use of ''herr'' ("mr"), ''fru'' ("mrs") or ''fröken'' ("miss") was only considered acceptable in initial conversation with strangers of unknown occupation, academic title or military rank. The fact that the listener should preferably be referred to in the third person tended to further complicate spoken communication between members of society. In the early 20th century, an unsuccessful attempt was made to replace the insistence on titles with ''Ni'' (the standard Grammatical person pronoun) — analogous to German language and French language. ''Ni'' wound up being used as a slightly less arrogant form of ''du'' used to address people of lower social status. With the liberalization and radicalization of Swedish society in the 1950s and 60s, these previously significant distinctions of social class became less important and ''du'' became the standard, even in formal and official contexts. ==Sounds== Swedish is notable for having a relatively large vowel inventory consisting of 9 vowels that make up 17 phonemes in most varieties and dialects (short /e/ and coincide). There are 18 consonant phonemes out of which and /r/ show quite considerable variation depending on both social and dialectal context. A distinct feature of Swedish is its varied prosody, which is often one of the most noticeable differences between the various dialects. Native speakers who adapt their speech when moving to areas with other regional varieties or dialects will often adhere to the sounds of the new variety, but nevertheless maintain the prosody of their native dialect. The prosodic features of Swedish are sometimes summarized as a "melodic accent", though this term is not used by linguists and is used mostly as a descriptive, but still rather vague, term for the prosodic features of Swedish and Norwegian language. ===Vowels=== Swedish vowels are Minimal pair in terms of quality, and the Front vowel appear in Roundedness-unrounded pairs. Unstressed is rendered as (schwa) in most dialects, and a lowering of vowels is very common before /r/ and the various Retroflex consonant assimilations such as , . Various patterns of diphthongs occur in different dialect groups. Among the most distinguishable are those of Skåne in southern Sweden and in Gotland. ===Consonants=== {| border="2" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse; font-size: 95%;" | ! colspan="2" | Bilabial ! colspan="2" | Labiodental ! colspan="3" | Dental !Alveolar ! colspan="2" | Palatal ! colspan="2" | Velar !Glottal |- align=center |Plosives | p | rowspan="2" | b | colspan="2" | | t | rowspan="2" | d | | | colspan="2" | | k | rowspan="2" | | |- align=center |Approximants | | | rowspan="2" | v | | l | rowspan="3" | r | | rowspan="2" | j | | h |- align=center |Fricatives | colspan="2" | | f | colspan="3" | s | | colspan="2" | | |- align=center |Trills | colspan="2" | | colspan="2" | | colspan="3" | | colspan="2" | | colspan="2" | | |- align=center |Nasal consonant | colspan="2" | m | colspan="2" | | colspan="3" | n | | colspan="2" | | colspan="2" | | |} The uniquely-Swedish phoneme (the "sje-sound" or voiceless dorso-palatal velar fricative) and its allegedly double place of articulation is a difficult and complex issue that is still debated among phoneticians. Though the acoustic properties of the various -sounds are fairly similar, the realizations can vary considerably according to geography, social status, and social context and are notoriously difficult to describe and transcribe accurately. The sje-sound has a great variety of allophones in Swedish, and often quite subtle realizations. Most common are various -like sounds, with occurring mainly in northern Sweden and in Finland. can sometimes be used in the varieties influenced by major immigrant languages like Arabic language and Kurdish language. The realizations of /r/ are also highly variable in different dialects and varieties. In Central Swedish dialects often becomes a fricative , in consonant clusters often as , and especially in Central Standard Swedish as the approximant . Uses of tap consonant like are also common. In southern Sweden uvular trills or voiced uvular fricative, , are commonly used to realize /r/. Unlike Central and most of the Finland-Swedish variants, /r/ is not assimilated into retroflex realizations in the southern variants. /kɑ:rta/ ("map") is hence realized as . === Prosody === Prosody in Swedish often varies substantially between different dialects including the spoken varieties of Standard Swedish. As in most languages, stress can be applied to emphasize certain words in a sentence. To some degree prosody may indicate questions, although less so than in English. Swedish is, like English, a timing (linguistics) language and has many words that are differentiated by stress: *''formel'' — "formula" *''formell'' — "formal" Although there are inflection rules to prevent two unemphasized syllables in a row, words may instead have two consecutive stressed syllables. Stress (linguistics) in most dialects differentiates between two kinds of accents. Often referred to as acute accent and grave accent, they may also be referred to as ''accent 1'' and ''accent 2'' and are described as ''tonal word accents'' by Swedish linguists. Most dialects of Swedish make this distinction, although the actual realizations vary and are generally hard for non-natives to distinguish. In some dialects of Swedish as well as all those spoken in Finland this distinction is absent or only detectable through advanced phonetic analysis. Noteworthy are some three-hundred two-syllable word pairs that are differentiated only by their use of either grave or acute accent. *''anden'' — "the duck" *''anden'' — "the spirit" ===Phonotactics=== Like many other Germanic languages, Swedish has a tendency for closed syllables with a relatively large amount of consonant clusters in initial as well as final position. Though not as complex as that of most Slavic languages, examples of up to 8 consecutive consonants can occur when adding Swedish inflections to some foreign loanwords or names, and especially when combined with the tendency of Swedish to make long Compound (linguistics) nouns. The syllable structure of Swedish can therefore be described with the following formula: :(C)(C)(C)V(C)(C)(C) This means that a Swedish one-syllable morpheme can have up to three consonants preceding the vowel that forms the nucleus of the syllable, and three consonants following it. All but one of the consonant phonemes, , can occur at the beginning of a morpheme, though there are only 6 possible three-consonant combinations, all of which begin with /s/ and a total of 31 initial two-consonant combinations. All consonants except for /h/ and can occur finally, and the total amount of final two-consonant clusters is 62. In some cases this can result in near-unpronouncable combinations, such as in ''västkustskt'' , consisting of ''västkust'' ("west coast") with the adjective suffix ''-sk'' and the neuter suffix ''-t'' or the purely theoretical ''Herbstskts'' consisting of the German surname ''Herbst'' with the same suffixes as in the first example, but with an extra genitive ''-s'' added. All vowel phonemes, short or long, can occur in stressed syllables. Unstressed syllables can only be short, and the distinction between /e/ and is therefore not present. In pre-stress syllables, all vowels but /u/ and /o/ are differentiated. With each successive post-stress syllable, the number of contrasting vowels decreases gradually with distance from the point of stress; within three syllables from intonation, only [a], or occur. == Grammar == Swedish nouns and adjectives are declined in two grammatical gender and two case (linguistics), as well as grammatical number. The two cases are nominative and genitive. Nominative is the dictionary form while the genitive suffix is ''-s'', identical to that of English. Swedish nouns belong to one of two genders: uter or neuter, which also determine the declensions of adjectives. For example, the word ''fisk'' ("fish") is an uter noun and can have the following forms: {| border="2" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse; font-size: 95%;" |- align=center ! rowspan=2 |   | colspan=2 | Singular | colspan=2 | Plural |- align=center | ''Indefinite form'' | ''Definite form'' | ''Indefinite form'' | ''Definite form'' |- align=center | ''Nominative'' | fisk | fisken | fiskar | fiskarna |- align=center | ''Genitive'' | fisks | fiskens | fiskars | fiskarnas |} As in other Germanic languages there are definite and indefinite article (grammar)s, but indicating the definite form of a noun is done mainly by a suffix which varies according to gender ''(-n/-t).'' The separate articles ''en/ett'' and ''den/det'' are used to make more subtle variations of meaning and are part of a quite complex system of determining definitiveness. The articles are used to add an extra dimension to this system and the definitive articles also double as demonstrative pronouns, and can be further specified with adverbs such as ''där''; "there". ''Den fisken'' and ''den där fisken'' would both translate as "that fish", but with the second example adding a level of definitiveness that is not distinguished in English. The Swedish pronouns are basically the same as those of English and have an additional object (linguistics) form, derived from the old dative form. ''Hon''; "she" has the following forms in nominative, genitive, and object form: :''hon'' - ''hennes'' - ''henne'' Verbs are Grammatical conjugation according to grammatical tense. Some verbs have a special imperative form, though with most verbs this is identical to the infinitive form. Perfect tense and present tense participles as adjectivistic verbs are very common: :Perfect participle: ''en stekt fisk''; "a fried fish" :Present participle: ''en stinkande fisk''; "a stinking fish" In contrast to English and many other languages, Swedish does not use the perfect participle to form the present perfect and past perfect tenses. Rather, the auxiliary verb ''"har"'', ''"hade"'' ("have"/"has", "had") is followed by a special form, called supine, used solely for this purpose (although sometimes identical to the perfect participle): :Perfect participle: ''målad''; "painted" - supine ''målat'', present perfect ''har målat''; "have painted" :Perfect participle: ''stekt'', "fried" - supine ''stekt'', present perfect ''har stekt''; "have fried" In a subordinate clause, this auxiliary ''"har"'', ''"hade"'' is optional and often omitted. :''Jag ser att han (har) stekt fisken''; "I see that he has fried the fish" Subjunctive mood is occasionally used for some verbs, but its use is in sharp decline and few speakers perceive the handful of commonly used verbs (as for instance: ''vore, vare, månne'') as separate conjugations, most of them remaining only as set of Idiom. The lack of cases in Swedish is compensated by a wide variety of prepositions, similar to those found in English language. As in modern German language, prepositions used to determine case in Swedish, but this feature remains only in idiomatic expressions like ''till sjöss'' (genitive) or ''man ur huse'' (dative singular), though some of these are still quite common. ===Syntax=== Swedish being a Germanic language, the syntax shows similarities to both English and German. Like English, Swedish has a Subject Verb Object basic word order, but like German, it utilizes V2 word order in main clauses, for instance after adverbs, adverbial phrases and Clause#Dependent_clauses. Prepositional phrases are placed in a Place Manner Time order, like in English (and unlike German). Adjectives precede the noun they determine. == Vocabulary == The vocabulary of Swedish is mainly Germanic, either through common Germanic heritage or through loans from German, Low German language and to some extent English. Examples of Germanic words in Swedish are ''mus'' ("mouse"), ''kung'' ("king"), and ''gås'' ("goose"). Much of the religious and scientific vocabulary is of Latin or Greek language origin, often borrowed through French language and, as of late, English. Cross-borrowing from other Germanic languages is also common, at first from Low German, the lingua franca of the Hanseatic League, later from High German. Some compounds are translations of the elements (calques) of German original compounds into Swedish, e.g ''bomull'' from German ''Baumwolle'', cotton (lit. ''tree-wool''). Finland-Swedish has a set of separate terms that are close cognates of their Finnish language counterparts, chiefly terms of law and government. A significant number of french language words were imported into Sweden around the 18th century. These words have been transcription (linguistics) to the Swedish spelling system and are therefore pronounced quite recognizably to a French-speaker. Examples include ''nivå'' (fr. ''niveau'', "level"), ''ateljé;'' (fr. ''atelier'', "studio"), and ''paraply'' (fr. ''parapluie'', "umbrella"). New words are often formed by compounding, and, like many Germanic languages, Swedish compounds words freely and frequently. Like for instance ''nagellackborttagningsmedel'' ("nail polish remover"), but as in German language or Dutch language extremely long, though quite impractical, examples like ''produktionsstyrningssystemsprogramvaruuppdatering'' ("production controller system software update") are possible. Compound nouns take their grammatical gender from the head (linguistics), which in Swedish is always the last morpheme. A very productive method for creating new verbs is the adding of ''-a'' to an existing noun, as in ''prat'' ("talk") and ''prata'' ("to talk"). == Writing system == The Swedish alphabet is a twenty-eight letter alphabet: the standard twenty-six-letter Latin alphabet with the exception of 'W', plus the three additional letters ''Å'', ''Ä'', and ''Ö''. These letters (not considered diacritics) are sorted in that order following ''z''. 'W' is not considered a separate letter, but a variant of 'v' used only in names (such as "Wallenberg") and foreign words ("bowling") and is pronounced as a regular 'v'. Diacritics are unusual in Swedish: é and occasionally other acute accents and, less often, grave accents can be seen in names and some foreign words. German ''ü'' is considered a variant of ''y'' and sometimes retained in foreign names. Diaeresis is not considered necessary, although it might very exceptionally be seen in elaborated style (for instance: "Aïda"). == See also == * Standard Swedish * Mandatory Swedish * Finland-Swedish * Minority languages of Sweden ==Notes==
# entry for "Scandinavian", ''The Penguin Encyclopedia of Language'' # According to [http://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/taskue_vaesto.html#structure official population statistics] by the Finnish government agency Statistics Finland. # According to [http://www.kommunerna.net/k_perussivu.asp?path=255;264;519;599;23876;30127;30393 a list] compiled by the Finnish Association of Municipalities. # The number of registered Swedes in Zmeyovka (the modern Russian name of ''Gammalsvenskby'') as of 1994 was 116 according to Nationalencyklopedin, article ''svenskbyborna'' , but the number of native speakers is closer to 20 according to the association [http://www.svenskbyborna.com/foreningen.htm ''Svenskbyborna'']. # Poll conducted by HUI in December of 2005, reported 2005-05-03 in ''Dagens Industri'' # Pettersson (1996), pg. 184 # Kotsinas (1994) pg. 151 # Pettersson (1996), pg. 151 # Ladefoged & Maddieson (1996), pg. 171-172, 329-330 # [http://www.webgraph.se/bosse.thoren/prosodi_eng.html Thorén 1997]
==References== *Bolander, Maria (2002) ''Funktionell svensk grammatik'' ISBN 91-47-05054-3 *David Crystal (1999) ''The Penguin Encyclopedia of Language'' ISBN 0-14-051416-3 *Engstrand, Olle (2004) ''Fonetikens grunder'' ISBN 91-44-04238-8 *Elert, Claes-Christian (2000) ''Allmän och svensk fonetik'' ISBN 91-1-300939-7 *Garlén, Claes (1988) ''Svenskans fonologi'' ISBN 91-44-28151-X *Hällström, Charlotta af (2000) ''Finlandssvensk ordbok'' ISBN 951-50-1136-1 *Kotsinas, Ulla-Britt (1994) ''Ungdomsspråk'' ISBN 91-7382-790-8 *Peter Ladefoged & Ian Maddieson (1996) ''The sounds of the world's languages'' ISBN 0-63-119815-6 *Pettersson, Gertrud (1996) ''Svenska språket under sjuhundra år'' ISBN 91-44-48221-3 *Thorén, Bosse (1997) ''[http://www.webgraph.se/bosse.thoren/prosodi_eng.html Swedish prosody]'' *Nationalencyklopedin, articles ''svenska'', ''du-tilltal'', ''ni-tilltal'' *[http://www.us-english.org/foundation/research/lia/languages/swedish.pdf US English Foundation, ''English in America: A Study of Linguistic Integration''] (Washington DC: US English Foundation, 2005) ===History=== * Svensson Lars, (1974) ''Nordisk Paleografi'', Studentlitteratur Lund ISSN 3683420;28 == External links == * [http://www.ielanguages.com/swedish.html Swedish Language Tutorial at ielanguages.com] * [http://www.ethnologue.org/show_language.asp?code=swe Ethnologue report for Swedish] * [http://www.omniglot.com/writing/swedish.htm Omniglot entry on Swedish] * [http://www.dicts.info/dictlist1.php?k1=91 All free Swedish dictionaries] * [http://lexin.nada.kth.se/swe-eng.shtml Online dictionary] founded by the Swedish government * [http://web.hhs.se/isa/swedish/ An introduction to Swedish] * [http://www.ling.lu.se/persons/JohanF/dialects/laryngograph.html Laryngograph recordings and resynthesis of different dialects of Swedish] - Sound files that illustrate the differences between prosody in Scandinavian dialects * [http://www.kb.se/ENG/F1700/Start.htm Digitally remastered Swedish imprints before 1700 ] from the webpage of the Royal Library in Stockholm la:Lingua Suecica li:Zweids se:Ruoŧagiella vi:Tiếng Thụy Điển Languages of Finland Languages of Sweden Swedish language North Germanic languages

Swedish language



:''Discussions on Swedish phonology have been moved to Talk:Swedish phonology.'' __TOC__ Hallo everybody. Please notice that the English example on the description of short "a" ('"u" in "put"') is clearly wrong, especially since the SAME example is used three lines after for the description of short "o"! I guess that the English word "what" could be a closer example of a Swedish short "a", but I don't dare to correct the article myself as I don't actually speak swedish. Could someone more skilled than me please have look into it? Regards. Cingar 17:52 Jan 31, 2004 (UTC) ---- I can understand the reasoning behind disambiguating from "Swedish language" to "Swedish (language)", but I'm not sure that I would venture to undertake such a disambiguation by myself. I recognize a primary value in maintaining a systematic implementation of article names and any change also implies the same for every language articles, including disambiguation of their links. This is truly a gargantuan task. I'm not necessarily opposed to it as such, but any change that is not fully implemented would just lead to confusion. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see it that it is followed through completely. -- User:Mic 07:26 May 9, 2003 (UTC) :Process in progress. I'm sorry if I'm not as fast as you are. I've recently had some minor problems with the urge to do other changes at the same time (trying hard to resist! :-), and also with the urge to make use of the nice weather out-doors. :-)) -- User:Ruhrjung 07:54 May 14, 2003 (UTC) ---- Martin, regarding the written standard of South-Scandinavian Swedish (language), you changed ''Adjectives are typically Grammatical conjugation according to (real) gender'' to ''...sex''. I think it's a rather tricky case. You don't write ''Det snälla/snälle barnet'' regardless of if you know the sex or not. You don't even see ''Det snälle gossebarnet,'' but ''Den snälle gossen'' vs. ''Den snälla flickan.'' My impression is that this is a distinction between sex and gender, but of course I might be wrong. A child called ''barn'' is probably thought of as gender-less (but never sex-less). Also the ''gossebarn'' is seemingly gender-less, but the ''gosse'' isn't. This is also what my native Swedish friends seem to believe, although it's of course of limited value what native laymen say regarding their mother tongue. It would be stupid to ask me about German grammar! You seem to understand this differently. Do you follow any published authority? best regards!
-- User:Ruhrjung 06:13 21 Jul 2003 (UTC) : I was just trying to fix links to gender, which is a disambiguation page - I assumed that "real gender" meant sex in this case, rather than gender role, gender identity, or grammatical gender. Sounds like I mucked it up - could you fix it to point to the correct page? User:MyRedDice My problem is that I'm a ''student'' of Swedish, not a native speaker. I consider this peculiarity being one (of several) areas which I don't really understand. It would be ridiculous if I tried to correct others' corrections. This is of course further complicated by me being not a native speaker of English, why I am somewhat insecure regarding the precise distinctions about ''"gender"'' and ''"sex"'' in English.
-- User:Ruhrjung 06:10, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC) : Righto. We'll have to wait for someone else to get here then :) User:MyRedDice 13:40, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC) -- I think that Jämska is presumably the variety of Swedish spoken in Jämtland - the area around Östersund. I have never heard of Jemtia - but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist as a word. User:David Martland 13:46, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC) -- Interestingly, this page http://www.ima.mdh.se/personal/lln/jamtamot/dokument/jubileumsskrift1985/js1985_nr07_jamska.html suggests that the correct form for the name of the language used in Jämtland is in fact jamska - so I stand corrected. I will try to work out how to do the correction back in the main text. -- Concerning Jamska or Jämska or whatever (there is no standardized spelling, but the Jamts often seem to prefer "jamska", since the 'ä' is a Swedish letter). Jamska is not the Swedish spoken in Jämtland (to say the area around Östersund is a bit of a stretch, the area is of the same size as Switzerland), linguistically it's correctly classified as a West-Scandinavian language, whereas Swedish is on the Eastern branch. The only reason it is often called a Swedish dialect is a political one; Jämtland happens to belong to Sweden nowadays. "Iemtia" is a Latin spelling of the province name, and one form of it can be seen on the Carta Marina, a Swedish map from 1539 ("Iempihia"). It has never really been used though, and certainly not during the last three centuries. ---- The article states that the definite article is a suffix. But my understanding is that they are attached if there is no adjective but a separate word, spelled slightly differently, if an adjective does intervene. — User:Hippietrail 01:31, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC) ---- "Examples of Germanic words in Swedish are mus (mouse)..." I was under the impression that 'mus' was of Latin origin - my dictionary agrees with me on this as well. - X-G, 12:48, 16 Jun 2004 UTC : Which dictonary are you refering to? Both Nationalencyklopedin and SAOB states that 'mus' is an ancient swedish word and NEO also states that it has Germanic orgin (''HIST.: sedan äldre fornsvensk tid; fornsv. mus; gemens. germ. ord, motsvarande lat. mus, grek. mys med samma bet.'') --User:Martinl 20:35, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC) ::Translated: "common germanic word, akin to latin mus, greek mys, with the same meaning", I.e. that is a common IE root, which hasn't changed in very different ways in latin, germanic or greek. ==Rinkebysvenska== What most people call "Rinkebysvenska", is just plain Swedish with a few borrowed Turkish words, usually spoken with an accent. I barely consider it a dialect and most certainly not a ''derived language''. Does anyone disagree? -- Ml, 16 Oct 2004 :No, I fully agree. Although there are quite a number of foreign words from different origins used in the youth vernaculars of suburbs such Rinkeby, Botkyrka and Rosengård that is certainly not enough to call any one of them a "derived language". User:Alarm 19:27, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC) ::I think we can all agree that the type of Swedish spoken by first generation immigrants isn't a proper dialect. However, making the same assumption for second or third generation immigrants makes no sense at all. There is no question that even children born and raised in Sweden speak a quite distinct and easily discernable style of Swedish which can't possibly be classified as a mere accent. Syntax (verb placement tends to differ), pronounciation (in particular the quite Arabic-influenced velar uvular fricatives) and vocabulary all differ to some degree or another, which is generally accepted as the criteria for a dialect. I know a lot of people who want to classify these mainly immigrant-spoken varieties as sociolects, but I'm not so sure about that myself. One of the main reasons is that I've heard what looked to me as ethnic Swedes use this style of speech with friends that looked to be decended from immigrants. The fact that you hear different dialects coming out of different part of the country also point to the fact that Rinkeby-Swedish and Rosengård-Swedish should be considered offspring of the respective regional dialects. Sociolect or dialect? I'm not sure, but we're definetly not talking about just accented Swedish. - user:karmosin 01:46, 3 Feb 2005 :::The question of whether these forms of speech are dialects or not is certainly debatable, and there are arguments both for and against. One argument against looking at them as dialects that I think has to be considered is the fact that they don't seem to have a stable vocabulary. To me it seems more like each speaker uses a personal array of slang and borrowed foreign words and there are no standard Swedish words that couldn't be used interchangeably with these. Compare this with Scanian, where you could definitely argue that it "would be incorrect" to use the Swedish ''pojke'' (instead of ''paug''), :::For clarification, the previous postings were a response to the fact that ''Rinkebysvenska'' was originally listed as a derived language, and not a dialect. Regardless of the discussion of it being a dialect or not, I think we can agree that was incorrect. It was later moved - see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Swedish_language&diff=7149849&oldid=6808756 this diff]. / User:Alarm 12:09, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC) Wouldn't it be a good idea to add references, attributions and/or quotations to the section that now is called "Immigrant varieties"? /User:Tuomas 12:55, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Attention Estonian nationalists! == There is an ongoing debate over at the Swedish wiki about whether there are enough Swedish speakers in Estonia to merit an inclusion in the language template. I've slapped the with a POV-warning and asked for a reliable source on the number of current speakers. The Ethnologue puts the figure at a whopping [http://www.ethnologue.org/show_country.asp?name=Estonia 29], none whatsoever in the Ukraine and there are plenty of Swedish articles about the Estonian Swedophones that clearly indicate that the number was way below a few thousand as as WW II. Either come up with links to some groundbreaking studies or stop reinserting info that has no merit. I'm too familiar with the concept of Swedish-Estonian nationalism to let this slide. --karmosin 00:49, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC) == Allophone == Ruhrjung, I didn't quite understand your objection. The two sounds are in effect allophones, even if all dialects and regional variations except the northern and Finland-Swedish make that distinction in speech. Why doesn't it make any sense? User:Karmosin 09:47, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC) :After the text ::''The pronunciation of vowels, and of some consonant sounds (particularly sibilants), demonstrates marked differences in spoken high-prestige varieties.'' :Ruhrjung had added ::''This includes in many dialects, including that of the capital area, the Voiceless dorso-palatal velar fricative fricative , (pronounced somewhere between "sh" in English ''she'' and "ch" in German ''doch),'' that in most of these dialects must be distinguished from the voiceless retroflex fricative (pronounced somewhere between "sh" in English ''she'' and "ch" in German ''ich).'' In other important dialects, the same opposition is rather differently produced.'' :You changed ::''that in most of these dialects must be distinguished from the voiceless retroflex fricative '' :to ::''that in most of these dialects must be distinguished from the allophone voiceless retroflex fricative '' ::(my emphasis). :So, why ''must'' allophones be distinguished? Aren't they rather much unconciously produced and perceived; and when one is produced for the other, usually no harm is done. :If and are allophones of the same phoneme in ''most of these dialects,'' then there is no reason to write about it at all, an it could be removed, couldn't it? :However, in my book and are allophones of ''different'' phonems, the sje-phoneme and the assimilation of /r/+/s/. :/User:Tuomas 12:09, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::Well, that makes sense. I guess I got somewhat confused by your earlier statement of minimal pair excercises with and . User:Karmosin 14:39, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC) == Standard Swedish variations or dialects? == I think we need to start clearly defining the difference between Swedish dialects and the regional variations of Standard Swedish. The term ''rikssvenska'' should be defined in a separate article, and we should avoid confusing popular notions of what the word actually means with the linguistic definitions, which are hardly as vague as are implied in this article. It should certainly be noted that there are misunderstandings of the term among the general public, but it should only follow after a thorough explanation of the linguistic definitions. The sources I've checked seem to be quite clear and unanimous on the matter. A Swedish dialect is defined quite seperatly from the regional variations. Here are some citations, my translations from Swedish with my comments enclosed in brackets: from Nationalencyklopedin's article rikssvenska: :''rikssvenska, the Swedish national language ["riksspråket"]. It has mainly developed from the upper class language of the Mälar Valley region. It can no longer be attributed to any certain regions. The word is used commonly among both laymen and scholars.'' from NE's article riksspråk (roughly "national language): :''riksspråk, a form of language that is common to one state [actually Swedish ''rike'', which would roughly translate to "realm"] which is constrasted to dialects. Usually refering to both spoken and written languages. (...) Today the term standard language is the most common in the scientific litterature.'' Both these articles in turn link to the article "standardspråk" (standard language) and a further defining of "riksspråk" mainly as a term for standard languages in general as well as refering to Standard Swedish. Engstrand, Olle, "Fonetikens grunder", 2004, pg. 120: :''All languages have more or less significant regional variations in pronunciation. In Swedish there are differences in the spoken varieties of the standard language ("Scanian", "Gutnish" or "Dalmål") as well as variations specific to certain cities ["stadsmål"] like "Stockholmska" or "Göteborska". By "dialect" Swedish dialectologists are refering to those ''bygdemål'' or ''landsmål'' that have a straight lineage that can be traced back to Old Norse, a history shared with all other Scandinavian dialects - these form a continuum while the distinct "National languages" like Swedish, Danish and Norweigan are relativly recent constructions.'' Since the linguists seem to be quite clear that "rikssvenska" is more or less the same as "Standard Swedish" and that this term is by no means as rigid and chauvinistic as a lot of our articles here seem to hint at, I think we should start the article Standard Swedish where we can explain these matters properly. User:Karmosin 14:44, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC) :May I remind you, Peter, that this seems to be a repetition of our recent discussion in :sv:Diskussion:Svenska#Sveam.E5l. It would be nice if the confusions from that discussion could be avoided this time. :--User:Johan Magnus 08:44, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::Absolutely. That's why I'm citing Engstrad this time. User:Karmosin 10:20, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC) == Former capitalisation of common nouns? == I've either read or heard that several Germanic languages besides German used to capitalise all common nouns. In Danish this practice was abolished in a spelling reform in the late 1940s. Can anybody tell me if this was ever practiced in Swedish and if so when was it abolished? — User:Hippietrail 06:09, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) :I'm not sure, but I would guess that it was no later than the 19th century. Before that I'm not sure Swedish orthography was all that standardized. I'm pretty sure I've seen it in older texts from the the 18th century or before. Most likely influenced by German. User:Karmosin 10:27, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC) ::I do agree with Peter, and it might be added that influence from Low (and High) German has been considerable, which is why it rather is an interesting question why capitalisztion of common nouns disappeared! ::--User:Johan Magnus 12:31, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Minor rewrite== I simply removed the Trivia-section in my latest edit. The category doesn't fit with the standard recommended by the Languages Project and a lot of the facts were either non-encyclopedic or very speculative. A lot of the rewrite is based on the discussions at Talk:Standard Swedish and Talk:Swedish phonology. If anything something important got lost, just give a holler and we'll sort it out. User:Karmosin 10:27, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC) :A few questions about your rewrite, Johan: :*Wouldn't at least a table of the phonemes be a good idea? Moving the sje-example also doesn't seem to have much of a point since there already is an example at Swedish phonology. As far as I know it is recommended that a minimum of sound samples be placed in language articles. :**Why? You have yourself created a specific phonology-article. I would however be prepared to move back the phonology content again. --User:Johan Magnus 12:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) :*The removal of the passage that explains the "u"-vowel to be unique for Swedish and Norweigan was explained with this edit summary: "removing nationalist proudness". Could you explain how it is nationalist to claim that a sound is unique for a particular language? Is the fact actually contested (by any sources)? Will speakers of other languages feel less proud of their own language because they're missing that particular vowel? Is the "u" a particularly prestigious vowel among phoneticians? Labeling comments about unique features as nationalism (on the sole basis that I happen to be a native speaker) just doesn't seem like a valid objection. :**Without going into too much details, there is no need to appear too much bragging about alleged uniqueness. It looks pretty childish to me. And the allegation is obviously hard to prove. You are however misinterpreting me when you (this time) believe it has anything with you personally to do. Not at all. I would have the same opinion regardless of who had written it, although I may have tempered my edit somewhat differently if it was a student of Swedish who had made the proposal. --User:Johan Magnus 12:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) :*The melodic accent is as far as I know not too unusual a feature in the UPSID languages. I guess that it's probably not too common among the top 100 languages, but that doesn't seem to be a good way of judging if a feature is unusual or not. :**Yes it is. English speakers and other students of Swedish as a foreign language are likely to be more acquainted with the more common languages than with the less common. --User:Johan Magnus 12:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) :*I wrote the history section specfically for the introduction. Introductions are as far as I know intended to be fairly comprehensive, if still general enough to be brief. The actually history section has a lot more room for information than just that brief summary. :**As you see, I disagree with your judgement. I think the history-information is relevant in a history section, when there now exists one. That's where a reader would look for it. In my opinion (and that's what it is: your and my opinions!) Your history-content took far too much of the space of the introduction. --User:Johan Magnus 12:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) :*In general, we have a lot more room in this article. I don't think we need to limit ourselves all that much here considering that most sections are still very brief. :**Also on this point I disagree with you. In fact, I think User:Graculus had a good manifesto — although I came to disagree very much with one of his attempts to implement it. --User:Johan Magnus 12:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) :I've noticed I didn't explain everything that I changed on the talk page, but then again, I didn't see it as particularly controversial. I'll do a full summary of my edits on the talk pages from now on. Do you thin you could do the same? User:Karmosin 18:48, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC) ::I am sure that would clogg the talk page and make it harder to follow discussions. --User:Johan Magnus 12:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) == "Melodic accent" == I added some information and rephrased a lot of the Sounds-section. The term "prosody" is probably better to use, and there seemed to be a confusion in the old version about vocal stress in general. All forms of Swedish have melodic accent, it's just not the same in all varieties. Finland-Swedish, however, does not differentiate between accents 1 and 2 as do all (I think) varieties in Sweden. I don't think we want too many subsections either, and in since we should be fairly brief about stress, it's better to stick to just "Stress". User:Karmosin 15:42, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC) :The melodic accent is one of the features of Swedish that is most distinctive and best known abroad. The exact wordings and layout of the article can of course be discussed, and inaccuracies ought of course to be eliminated, but it does not at all seem advisable to "stick to just 'stress'". :What's your source for "all (I think) varieties in Sweden"? :It would also be nice to include an apostrophication or a link to an authorative quote on Finland-Swedish. Can you propose any? :--User:Johan Magnus 12:03, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::If you want any changes to the previous statements to be supported by quotes, then you might want to think about quoting sources yourself. Melodic accent seems to be totally void of any source references at all, for example. Especially when it's about issues that are really not the least bit controversial. :::After all, it's you who proposes changes to texts and wordings that have stood the test of time. And it's you who often have appeared quite eager to request scholarly quotations from others. Hence I think you have more reason to present support for your proposed changes than do others have for conservativeness. I am sure you will understand this basic principle some day, in case you don't do this already now. :::With regard to Finland-Swedish, specifically, you may be interested in Non-native pronunciations of English#Finnish, given that you agree that some of the basic difference between Finland-Swedish and ''rikssvenska'' can be explained linguistically by a Finnish substratum. :::You may also consider the difference between providing a link as a means to convince other wikipedians of your point (on the talk page), and to provide a attribution of a point of view to an authority (in the actual article). For the former, googling is useful, for the latter: not so much. :::--User:Johan Magnus 14:49, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::But here goes: ::*Melodic accent seems like a somewhat nonstandard phonetic term that could mean anything that has to do with either stress or acccent. ::**Inasmuch as it is a feature alien to English, this is true. Textbooks on linguistics I've read (English textbooks, that is) have also been more concerned about "proper" tone languages, i.e. the wellknown examples from the Far East. ::** See also the introduction to the article on intonation and Non-native pronunciations of English#Swedish. --User:Johan Magnus 14:49, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::* All varieties of Swedish can stress syllables in a number of ways to achieve a number of differences in meaning, but not all use accents 1 and 2 to seperate homonyms, see Garlén (1988) pg. 138-139, Elert (2000) pg. 130-33. and Engstrand (2004) pg. 186-192. ::**I agree with your wording here, and I hope we agree that grave and acute accent in Swedish do not express "stress". --User:Johan Magnus 14:49, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::*The Swedish term used by both Garlén and Engstrand is ''ordaccent'' ("word accent") where words are seperated only by the use of either accents 1 or 2. I'm not 100% what this corresponds to in English, but just "melodic accent" is too vague. ::**See for instance [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Pitch_accent&diff=12612831&oldid=8116662 my comment at Talk:Pitch accent] ::**See also: http://www.let.kun.nl/tie/application.htm ::::--User:Johan Magnus 14:49, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::*For some examples of how accents 1 and 2 can be realized, see Engstrand pg. 213-217. ::*For a concise summary on the different prosodic elements in Swedish see Bolander (2001) pg. 61 (or the chapter on prosody in the new edition). ::Let me know if you need summarized quotes of these sources. ::User:Karmosin 13:10, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC) :::Summary: :::Reference to ''melodic accent'' is a good thing, "stick to just 'stress'" is illadviced. :::I don't think we disagree much with regard to the situation in Swedish. The issue is how to express this in English. (Or if at all.) However, as I've already hinted at, it's far too brave to allege that all varieties in Sweden should differ from Finland-Swedish like this. It doesn't seem likely to me, and decreases the credibility of the text. I guess none of the sources you refer to has the guts to be that bold. :::Nor does it seem like a good solution to be too specific about the situation in Finland-Swedish - unless we have a good source to rely on. :::May I also make the clear reservation that I am pretty unsure of which of Elert's works I've read? ...and I do for the moment not recall to have read any work by any Bolander at all - but that may be due to faulty memory. :::--User:Johan Magnus 14:49, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Swedish language(s) == The article says the following about some of the Swedish dialects: :"''Gutnish language'', ''Jamska language'', ''Scanian language'' (''Skånska'') and ''Dalecarlian language'' (''Dalmål'') can in their own right be considered as separate languages. Practically all speakers of these languages are bilingual in Swedish, and the consideration here is principally the dialect of ''Swedish'' spoken by these individuals. None of them are recognized as separate languages under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. ''See also: Minority languages in Sweden''" Jamska and Dalecarlian are proper dialects of Swedish and might reasonably be considered seperate languages, though I don't know what linguists have to say about it. Even Gutnish seems reasonable. The claim about Scanian seems to be extremely speculative, though. The article Scanian language is far too influenced by regionalist sentiment (use of the term Terra Scania, for example). I don't really see any value in defining all true dialects of Swedish as seperate langauges, since neither linguists or even the speakers themselves use this definition. The term "dialect" is flexible enough to use in this context and it is far easier than trodding straight into the stagnant rhetorical swamp that is the language/dialect discourse. Going by the linguistic terminology (not our own ''interpretations'' of said terminology) seems the only compromise that wouldn't be confusing for outsiders. See Talk:Scanian language for a more specific discussion of Scanian as a seperate language. User:Karmosin 16:04, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC) :Most certainly do linguists say different things depending on their general attitudes towards the (alleged) differences between dialects and languages. :--User:Johan Magnus 12:04, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::That's very hard to tell, though, since you never actually quote them. Who besides SIL, who's reliability is rightfully questioned, is claiming that these are seperate langauges? And I want the actual words of actual linguists on this one, mind you. Not just intepretations of very non-specific debates on the difficulty of establishing a boundary between a dialect and a language. User:Karmosin 12:21, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC) :::That's not my thing to prove. I do not claim that there is a difference between languages and dialects. ::: :-) :::--User:Johan Magnus 12:39, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) == removed hard-to-prove claims == The following was removed: :''The Swedish has no known equivalent except in Norwegian language and the fricative [] is not known to exist in any other langauge.'' The first symbol is rather cryptic, and North-British speakers may disagree with the claim if the symbol means what I believe it does. The idea that doesn't exist in other languages is also questionable and really impossible to prove. What can be truthfully argued, is that the symbol is not used for other languages, which is explained by it being a relatively new and obscure addition to the IPA-chart. However, the symbol is used in the literature for several different sounds, many of which for sure exist not only in other languages, but even in nearby languages. To sum it up: this kind of absolute statments are substandard. /J.O. :An additional explanation for the exclusive use of is maybe its IPA in Unicode#Other symbols as a sound with combined articulation: ::. :/User:Tuomas 11:08, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC) :: is used for several different sounds when it is indicated to be phoneme with many different realizations just like /r/, /t/, /k/, etc. Look this up in any phonology. They all use the same terminology and they all follow the recommendations of the IPA. I can assure you that the dicussion at voiceless dorso-palatal velar fricative is not especially helpful in this matter. The whole thing got stuck on a simple confusion of phoneme/phone and then got dragged into the whole Standard Swedish/Swedish phonology-conflict where all logical discussion broke down long ago. The sound I recorded is what the symbol is supposed to represent (with some variations) and you can confirm this with any book on Swedish phonetics. ::Also, you can't reasonably ask for a statement along the lines of "...is not known to exist in any other langauge" to be proved. If you want to question it, you have to prove that it does exist in some other language. Otherwise the sentence is perfectly facutal and NPOV. User:Karmosin 16:05, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC) :::It's per definition hard to wikipedia:verify. I propose that you consider wordings along the lines of "Olle Engstrand, a Swedish author on phonetics, writes < !-- in Olle Engstrand, Fonetikens grunder, 2004, page XX -- > that...". ::::See Talk:Swedish phonology for plenty of sources on the matter. ::::User:Karmosin 07:45, May 12, 2005 (UTC) :::I would also like to take this opportunity to once again (User talk:Karmosin#Thanks for the Swedish \"sj\" pronunciation!) propose that the sound you recorded does more sound like a southern pronunciation than what I've learned as the prestigious capital region pronunciation (from audio tapes in the Swedish course I followed in Sweden, but also often demonstrated by the language teacher who introduced herself as a native of the Gothenburg area), that had more of sibilant hissings to it. :::--User:Ruhrjung 17:34, May 2, 2005 (UTC) ::::Sorry for not answering this earlier. I didn't really notice it until now, what with all the bruhaha about Swedish phonology. ::::My pronunciation of the "sje" is by far the most common in and around Stockholm, which is confirmed by Elert in ''Allmän och svensk fonetik''. Engstrand and Garlén both describe the sound with almost the same symbols as Elert, though they don't have actual maps to specify usage. I can't back it up with specific sources, but I'd say it's by far the most common on TV and radio these days as well. ::::I can't be certain of what this more prestigeous pronunciation you heard on tape was, but I'm very sure it was the retroflex /rs/-assimilation , which is probably a lot easier for foreign students of Swedish to pronounce than the quite unique . Any native Swede that uses would probably produce a if asked to speak very formally. Otherwise the use of it is limited to the northern varieties, to some older (especially upper class) speakers and to effeminte gay men. I think Johan Magnus mentioned the latter phenomena much earlier in our discussion as a Swedish equivalent of an American English gay lisp. ::::User:Karmosin 07:45, May 12, 2005 (UTC) :::::I had this discussion in mind while listening to Swedish news on radio, and I now understand you mean! Though I'm still fairly sure that most lower-to-middle class Central Swedes are fairly close to my pronunciation (or at the least most people my age), I noticed that on radio the pronunciation is, just like you said, more sibilantic than mine. This is in fact the pronunciation my mother has, which I had thought was due to the fact that she's an academic and not originally from Stockholm, but it probably has more to do with age than anything else. :::::Here is what it sounds like when pronouncing the word ''sjuksköterska'' ("nurse"): :::::The first realization is produced by pushing the air through almost clenched teeth. The second one is (as far as I can tell without the means of analyzing it properly) some sort of velar obstruction with pursed lips, which I guess would mean it's labial to some degree (w in the IPA symbology). How the first sound is produced, I don't know and don't have the phonetic training to analyze, but it feels far more frontal, even alveolar. However, the tip of the tounge is ''not'' involved as in the English or German , but obstructing in a manner I simply can't analyze and that feels far more diffuse than any of the other sibilants. :::::User:Karmosin 18:14, May 13, 2005 (UTC) == About removal of text == I noticed that a some text has been removed with the motivation that there are seperate articles for this. This is a fair assumption, but it's not a good idea to remove material without actually moving it. Unless it is flat-out wrong, don't remove text by claiming the article is too long. In the matter of the immigrant varieties, I'm note sure if it's appropriate to simply move fairly relevant information on a quite interesting aspect of the Swedish language. Considering that FA articles on languages like Russian language and Portuguese language are extremely extensive in comparison, it would seem odd that Swedish would have to be so minimalist in information, even when there are seperate articles for certain subjects. I recommend discussing the removal of any information that is not actually erroneous on the talk page, and if it is removed, that the information is moved either to another article or at the very least its talkpage. Some duplicate information must be tolerated in any encyclopedia, and especially in such a general article as this. User:Karmosin 13:39, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC) == Pidgin Swedish == The heading "Immigrant varieties" has now been changed to "Suburban pidgin varieties". I can see the underlying reasoning for the change, but the argumentation faulters somewhat. All kinds of pidgin languages are always spoken outside of where the original language is spoken natively. Even though the suburbs of Stockholm, Malmö and Gothenburg are to great extent non-Swedish in terms of language, they are not comparable to former French, English or Portuguese colonies in Africa or Asia. The assumption that the grammar of Rinkeby Swedish is simplified seems very tentative to me. If anything I would say that the grammar is different, and actually describing it as simpler is taking somewhat of a leap. Most of the claims about inherent linguistic simplicity of true pidgin languages are usually based on subjective ideas of what sort of what "simple grammar" actually means. Considering that Rinkeby Swedish is often spoken by young people who have ethnically Swedish parents and mentioning in the article that it is bordering a pure sociolect, it seems as if actually calling it a pidgin language seems like stretching the definition of the word too far. User:Karmosin 11:55, May 1, 2005 (UTC) :I do partly agree, but must say that this heading is to prefer over for the previous choice. Then, of course, there are even longer possibilities. What would you suggest? :When discussing the issue of ''"simplicity'' of grammar", it has to be kept in mind that there is an in this respect important difference between creole languages and contact languages. :--User:Johan Magnus 12:19, 1 May 2005 (UTC) ::What's wrong with simply "Immigrant varieties"? It's short, simple and very descriptive. At worst I'd say that it's a very slight generalization. Despite that "immigrant" (''invandrare'') is often somewhat controversial as a term in Sweden, it's not the least bit controversial in English and is a very accurate description. ::I don't think the identification of Rinkeby Swedish as a creole can actually be made when the speakers socialize and live alongside with speakers of the "native" language and when so many are native speakers of Swedish themselves. There might be quite a lot of segregation, but kids being raised completely isolated from other types of Swedish is most likely very rare. The vast majority of the speakers still intermix with ethnic Swedes to some extent and are at the very least exposed to the standard language through TV, radio and the press. User:Karmosin 13:47, May 1, 2005 (UTC) :::Well, I reacted against "Immigrant varieties" because :::# far from all immigrants feel any affinity, :::# many speakers are "second or third generation" immigrants, and thereby technically not immigrants at all, and finally since :::# it's not restricted to immigrants but rather to speakers of a certain age of certain neighbourhoods that are densely populated by immigrants. :::Suburban multiethnolects was an alternative I had in mind, but liked less than the suburban pidgin-alternative. :::We agree, obviously, that ''Rinkebysvenska'' is not a creole language. A relief, isn't it? :::--User:Johan Magnus 14:30, 1 May 2005 (UTC) ::::I can't help agreeing with you. How about we try building on this by going with the least complicated subsection heading and concentrating on the wording instead? I think we're translating a purely Swedish concern of the meaning of "immigrant" that would seem rather inexplicable to outsiders. In this tontext I think the term is more of a convenience than an attempt at exact definition. User:Karmosin 14:40, May 1, 2005 (UTC) :::::Nope. It's more Swedish than English to expand immigrantship for generations. I therefore (and for other reasons listed above) re-worded the term "Immigrant varieties". :::::--User:Johan Magnus 15:07, 1 May 2005 (UTC) The only Swedish issue here is the assumption that the term "immigrant" has a distinctly negative connotation. The variety is still spoken mainly by the children of first-generation immigrants (with the exception of Finns or Finland-Swedes). This term is obviously merely a descriptive convenience rather than some illicit generalization and replacing it with completely erroneous terminology like "pidgin" doesn't make it any clearer. If anything, I'd say that calling it a creole is far more likely to draw assumptions from non-Swedes of the speakers being "outsiders" (or, God forbid, "colonials") speaking some form of Swedish not actually intelligable to native Swedes. User:Karmosin 13:44, May 3, 2005 (UTC) :: Nationalencyklopedin describes it under the subheader ''New Swedish dialects'' in article "Svenska dialekter". --User:Fred chessplayer-User_talk:Fred chessplayer 18:50, 13 May 2005 (UTC) == Swedish dialects and Standard Swedish == I rewrote the section on Swedish dialects, since the old version still tried to describe the popular notion of what ''riksvenska'' and dialects are instead of focusing on the actual linguistic definition. I've tried to describe these popular notions as best as I can, and I don't wish to supress them, but I will insist on that we stick to how dialectologists define the situation, since it can only confuse outsiders by describing the popular (but usually uninformed) notions as somehow being more "correct". If anyone feels I removed something that still fit perfectly even with the new text, please try to integrate it with the new text rather than just reverting to the old one or merely returning the old paragraphs intact. Due to the fact the problems with the definitions of Swedish dialects as seperate languages by SIL, which has resulted in a consensus choice to move Scanian language to Scanian (linguistics), I have also hidden the following comments: :":¹ The more genuine varieties of ''Gutnish language'', ''Jamska language'', ''Scanian language'' (''Skånska'') and ''Dalecarlian language'' (''Dalmål'') are exceptionally considered as "separate" languages in their own right. Practically all speakers of these languages are then to be considered bilingual in Swedish, and the consideration here is principally the dialect of ''Swedish'' spoken by these individuals. None of them are recognized as separate languages under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. ''See also: Minority languages in Sweden'' :² Jamska belongs to the group of (Insular) West Scandinavian languages, as opposed to the other dialects of Swedish which belong to the (Continental) East Scandinavian group. The proper name of the language is Jamska, though the spelling ''Jämtska'' is sometimes used." I seriously contest the information here, especially the division into East and West Swedish, though I welcome discussions on this matter. As with previous discussions, I would like to see sources that support any claims of this sort if they are to be included in the article. I hope to hear many opinions on this matter and I hope we can all refrain from starting yet another revert-fest. :-) User:Karmosin 13:00, May 10, 2005 (UTC) == Glottal stop in Swedish == There's a claim about "stød", or glottal stop occuring in some dialects of Scanian, but with no kind of reference. Considering the notions of many that Scanian (linguistics) could be considered a dialect of Danish, I suspect this notion has come along for the ride. Using a glottal stop instead of accent 2 is a distinctly Danish feature, so I'm surprised that it would be present in a Swedish dialect. It would be very helpful if at least the location (with some sort of reference) of these archaic dialects could be mentioned. User:Karmosin 08:25, May 15, 2005 (UTC) : Aha, I thought you wrote this and assumed you had a source for it (which is why I left it be). As I wrote in my comment, I hadn't heard the claim about this in Scanian before. --User:Fred chessplayer-User_talk:Fred chessplayer 09:23, 15 May 2005 (UTC) == Divisioning == Even if the WikiProject Language uses a specific style, do we have to use it? It seems more fitting to our purpose to divide it in three sections, as they are about equally large and are clearly distinct from one another. --User:Fred chessplayer-User_talk:Fred chessplayer 09:20, 15 May 2005 (UTC) :Since I really want to push this article to the level of an FA, and since the Wikipedia:What_is_a_featured_article for an FA demand that it adhere to the standards set by the appriopriate WikiProject, it should stick to their standard. I suppose some variations are always tolerable, but it would seem odd that one candidate all of a sudden would diverge from the standard in several other language FAs. :I must confess that I favor the Language Project template myself, though, since I think empty sections or more subsection levels than necessary (this would require a third sub-level for the subsections of "Sounds", e.i. 1.2.3) make for bad layout. :User:Karmosin 09:41, May 15, 2005 (UTC) ::I don't like the WP:Languages structure very much. For example, I think it's not a bad idea to treat the history of the language and the speakers before the phonology (in fact, I often do it that way); furthermore, I don't see an intuitive place for things like demographics, literacy and language development (it very much looks like the template is organized with languages of the 'developed world' in mind). FYI, Nafaanra language was featured without strictly complying to those standards, as was Laal language. It seems to me that amending the Wikipedia:WikiProject Language Template would be a better thing to do. — User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 11:31, 15 May 2005 (UTC) :::Doesn't the demographic discussion belong in articles about the ethnic groups or the countries in question? They seem too much of a sociological issue to fit properly in the language articles. If anything, it would make them swell quite alarmingly (Peter likes everything below 40k). And the matter can always be summarized fairly well under "Geographic distribution". Personally, I think language development should definetly belong in the "History" section, while only mentioning it passingly briefly in the others. :::But by all means, I welcome the discussions at the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Language Template. Since I am a quite firm believer in adhering to standards and since the template fits this language very well, I would very much like to keep it until a consensus for changing the template is reached. If anything, the layout is definetly not an issue of systematic bias, but rather a pure meta-wiki issue. As long as the sections look the way they do (with all headers below "==X section==" looking too similar and sections with more than two sub-levels making the TOC look quite messy), I'd really like to keep it the way it is now. :::User:Karmosin 12:25, May 15, 2005 (UTC) :::: Naturally if we think it improves the article to devaite from the template, we should. The template is a general advice and may not always apply. :::: And that additional sub headers make that TOC look messy is, IMO, a matter of taste. --User:Fred chessplayer-User_talk:Fred chessplayer 10:38, 16 May 2005 (UTC) :::::I'll admit it is somewhat difficult to motivate that one type of layout is inherently more useful the other, but don't you agree that the difference between ==XXX== and ===XXX=== is a lot more useful than that of ===XXX=== and ====XXX====? The divider line seems so much more helpful to me when sorting subsections of "Sounds" or "Grammar". :::::User:Karmosin 12:32, May 16, 2005 (UTC) ==Old Norse vs Runic Swedish== Even Nationalencyklopedin, which uses the term ''Runic Swedish'', says that there were no differences between ''Runic Swedish'' and ''Runic Danish'' until the 12th century. In order to avoid that people misconstrue the use of ''Runic Swedish'' as signifying that it was an independent language at the time, I think we should use the term Old Norse for this period.--User:Wiglaf 11:50, 16 May 2005 (UTC) : I will await Karmosin's comments on this, as he is the person with the references. : Frankly I don't really understand what the detailed section on Old Norse has to do with the Swedish Language. But perhaps this is because I don't understand much of it. There are many terms that need clarification. You don't have to do that though, I can fix that myself later if I have the time... --User:Fred chessplayer-User_talk:Fred chessplayer 12:12, 16 May 2005 (UTC) ::Just tell me which terms you don't understand, and I'll rephrase them.--User:Wiglaf 12:18, 16 May 2005 (UTC) ::BTW, Fred Chessplayer, I have used Nationalencyklopedin as a source, so as to make it easy for others to verify the facts. All you have to do is to pick up Nationalencyklopedin and verify the facts. Good luck!--User:Wiglaf 12:24, 16 May 2005 (UTC) ::: Ok I have to repost this as our edits collided: ::: I will do just that, explaining all terms I don't understand in that section. Some terms may be explained in other places of the article though and need not explaining right here. Terms I don't understand: Old Norse ; proto-norse ; -- are Old West Norse and Old East Norse actually proper names or just definitions? ; Bokmål ; elder Futhark ; Younger Futhark ; and finally I don't understand what this ''A change that occurred in Old East Norse was the change of æi (Old West Norse ei) to e, as in stæin to sten. This is reflected in runic inscriptions where the older read stain and the later stin. There was also a change of au as in dauðr into ø as in døðr. This change is shown in runic inscriptions as a change from tauþr into tuþr. Moreover, the øy (Old West Norse ey) diphthong changed into ø as well, as in the Old Norse word for "island".'' has to do with the Swedish language... ::: I'm actually only adhering to Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Think_of_the_reader ::::Frankly, Fred, sometimes it is a good idea to follow the links and to do some reading. Although, I'd love to explain more in depth, it would explode the section into articles.--User:Wiglaf 12:38, 16 May 2005 (UTC) ::::: So you don't think that articles need to be understandable by themselves? --User:Fred chessplayer-User_talk:Fred chessplayer 12:41, 16 May 2005 (UTC) ::::::Well, that would be the ideal situation, but on the other hand, links serve a purpose.--User:Wiglaf 12:42, 16 May 2005 (UTC) I'm quite certain you are wrong here. Detailed information of a subject should naturally be in a separate article, but not basic things. If this was a specialized article, such as "The diphtongs of Swedish Language" , then a certain freedom could of course be used. But "Swedish language" should be able to be read by anyone, yet I can't understand parts of it. If you are right, then we might need to look up 10 words from every linked articles too in an evergrowing mystical net, no? --User:Fred chessplayer-User_talk:Fred chessplayer 12:56, 16 May 2005 (UTC) :OK, remove anything you think is incomprehensible then. Bye!--User:Wiglaf 13:00, 16 May 2005 (UTC) ::This is not a problem at all. Wiglaf, I encourage you to add as much material you feel is necessary. We're not writing the ''Absolute and Final Canon of the Definition of Runic Swedish'' here, and there's no need to get alarmed about occasional passages that might be hard for non-linguists to decipher. That's what copyediting and constructive criticism is all about! :-) I know that when I'm really interested in a subject it's very easy to get carried away with jargon and assumptions of people knowing very obscure facts of linguistics. ::Fred, I agree that there is some need to explain some terms, but I also agree that not every single term can be explained. Like Wiglaf pointed out; that's what the links are for. ::User:Karmosin 13:18, May 16, 2005 (UTC) ::: The section looks fine now. --User:Fred chessplayer-User_talk:Fred chessplayer 10:37, 17 May 2005 (UTC) I agree with Wiglaf, this is not the :simple: WP. If you don't understand a term, either click on its link, or look it up in a dictionary. By all means, if the same information can be expressed in a less convoluted way, rephrase it, but concerns of content must come first. That said, I find the paragraph in question is very lucid, and excellently illustrated. Hell, if you do not know the Younger Futhark nobody will blame you, just use your mouse and click on its blue link to read all about it. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 16:41, 16 May 2005 (UTC) == History == I removed some additions concerning the power struggle between supporters of Sten Sture and Christian II of Denmark. It doesn't really seem all that relevant to mention this in a Swedish language article, and I must point out that the circumstances surrounding the