Surrealism

Surrealism is an artistic movement, and an aesthetic philosophy that aims for the liberation of the mind by emphasizing the critical and imaginative powers of ''the unconscious''. Surrealism originated in early 20th century European avant-garde art and literary circles, and many early surrealists had been involved with the Dada movement. An expressly revolutionary movement, surrealism encompassed actions intended to advance radical political, social, cultural and personal change. While surrealism's most important center was in Paris, it spread throughout Europe and to North America in the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s. The term ''surreal'' is also applied more generally to describe the juxtaposition of ordinary events, actions or objects in a manner where the totality does not comport with ordinary ''sense'' or social decorum. In this usage it is the successor to the idea of the ''fantastic'' in Victorian art and literature. == History of surrealism== Guillaume Apollinaire Neologism the term ''surrealism'' when he described the Jean Cocteau/Erik Satie/Pablo Picasso/L�onide Massine collaboration ''Parade (ballet)'' (1917) in the ballet's program notes: :''From this new alliance, for until now stage sets and costumes on one side and choreography on the other had only a sham bond between them, there has come about, in 'Parade', a kind of super-realism ('sur-r�alisme'), in which I see the starting point of a series of manifestations of this new spirit ('esprit nouveau').'' === Surrealism's founding === Andr� Breton's Surrealist Manifesto of 1924 and the publication of the magazine ''The Surrealist Revolution'' (''La R�volution Surr�aliste'') mark the beginning of the movement as a public agitation. In the manifesto he defines surrealism as ''pure psychic automatism'' with Surrealist automatism being spontaneous creative production without conscious moral or aesthetic self-censorship. By Breton's admission, as well as by the subsequent development of the movement, this definition lent itself to considerable expansion. Breton also wrote the following dictionary and encyclopedia definitions: :'' Dictionary: SURREALISM, n. Pure psychic automatism, by which one proposes to express, either verbally, or in writing, or by any other manner, the real functioning of thought. Dictation of thought in the absence of all control exercised by reason, outside of all aesthetic and moral preoccupation. :'' Encyclopedia: SURREALISM. Philosophy. Surrealism is based on the belief in the superior reality of certain forms of previously neglected associations, in the omnipotence of dream, in the disinterested play of thought. It tends to ruin once and for all all other psychic mechanisms and to substitute itself for them in solving all the principal problems of life." Breton and Philippe Soupault wrote the first Surrealist automatism, ''The Magnetic Fields'' (''Les Champs Magn�tiques''), in 1919. Later, Andr� Masson developed automatic drawing. Automatic drawing and automatic painting, as well as other automatic methods such as decalcomania, frottage, Surrealist techniques, Surrealist techniques and Surrealist techniques, became significant surrealist techniques. Much later, Automatism and the computer was adapted to the computer. By December of 1924, the publication ''La R�volution Surr�aliste'' edited by Pierre Naville and Benjamin P�ret, then later by Breton, began distribution. A Bureau of Surrealist Research started in Paris, and was, at one time, under the direction of Antonin Artaud. In 1926, Louis Aragon wrote ''Paris Peasant'' (''Le Paysan de Paris''), following the appearance of many surrealist books, poems, pamphlets, automatic texts and theoretical works published by the surrealists, including those by Ren� Crevel. Many of the popular artists in Paris throughout the 1920s and 1930s explored surrealism. Among them were Ren� Magritte, Joan Mir�, Max Ernst, Salvador Dal�, Alberto Giacometti, Valentine Hugo, M�ret Oppenheim, Man Ray, Yves Tanguy, Hans Arp, Giorgio de Chirico, and Paul Delvaux. Surrealist games, such as the exquisite corpse, assumed importance in surrealism. Sometimes considered exclusively French, surrealism was international from the beginning, with both Belgian and Czech and Slovak Surrealist Group developing early; the Czech group continues uninterrupted into the 21st century. Some of those described as the most significant surrealist theory, such as Karel Teige from Czechoslovakia, Shuzo Takiguchi from Japan, Octavio Paz from Mexico, Aim� C�saire and Ren� Menil from Martinique (who started the surrealist journal ''Tropiques'' in 1940), hailed from other countries. The most radical of surrealist methods also hailed from countries other than France, for example, Romanian surrealist Gherasim Luca invented the technique of Surrealist techniques. Related to Dada, from which many of its initial members came, surrealism is significantly broader in scope. Dada was primarily based on the rejection of categories and labels, and rooted in negative responses to the World War I. Surrealism advocated the idea that the ordinary and depictive were still vital and important, but that the sense of arrangement should, and indeed must, be open to the full range of imagination according to the Dialectic#Hegelian_dialectic. The surrealists believed life can be transformed into a fertile crescent of freedom, love, and poetry. Breton proclaimed that the true aim of surrealism was ''long live the social revolution, and it alone!''. The surrealism movement was connected with the theories of Sigmund Freud, and with Primitivism_(art) more generally. Its political agenda strove towards Communism, as well as being influenced by Anarchism. As with many movements of the period, including Expressionism, its diagnosis of the ''problem'' of the realism and capitalism civilisation was the restrictive overlay of false rationality (including social and academic convention) on the free functioning of the instinctual urges of the mind. However, this dry connection does not explain the root of surrealism's broader appeal. According to Dal�, it was that surrealism did not reject the sense of beauty and aesthetic appeal of the past, merely the confines of it (this analysis may have been criticised by many surrealists, who considered the movement extra-aesthetic). It also embraced idiosyncrasy, while rejecting the idea of underlying madness and darkness of the mind. Dal�'s famous quote is, ''The only difference between myself and a madman is I am not MAD!'' === Interwar surrealism: Centrality of Breton === Breton, the central figure of the surrealist movement, not only published the most thorough explanations of its techniques, aims and ideas, but was the individual who drew in, and occasionally expelled, writers, artists and thinkers. Between the World War I and World War II, he formed the focus of surrealist activity in Paris. Through such works as ''Nadja'' (1928), the ''Second Surrealist Manifesto'' (1930), ''Communicating Vessels'' (1932), and ''Mad Love'' (1937) his writings were enormously influential in spreading surrealism as a body of thought, . During a turbulent period in the late 1920s several individuals closely associated with Breton left the movement, and several prominent artists entered. Surrealism continued to expand in public visibility. In Breton's own estimation the high water mark was the 1936 London International Surrealist Exhibition. Surrealism also attracted writers from the United Kingdom to Paris, David Gascoyne among them. He became friends with Paul �luard and Max Ernst, and translated the writing of Andr� Breton and Salvador Dal� into English. In 1935 he authored ''A Short Study of Surrealism'', after which he returned to England during World War II where he roomed with Lucian Freud and continued to write in a surrealist style for the remainder of his life. In 1937, Breton and Leon Trotsky co-authored a ''Manifesto for an independent revolutionary art'' on the need for a permanent revolution, and attacked Stalinism and Socialist realism, as ''the negation of freedom''. ===Splinter groups=== ====L'ac�phale==== L'ac�phale (meaning ''headless'') was a splinter group formed in the mid-1930s comprised of some of those disaffected by Breton's increasing rigidity and led by Georges Bataille. ====College of Sociology==== College of Sociology was a loosely-knit group of French intellectuals united in their dissatisfaction with surrealism. Formed in 1937, they believed that surrealism's focus on the unconscious privileged the individual over society, and obscured the social dimension of human experience. === Surrealism during World War II === The rise of Adolf Hitler in Germany and the events of 1939 to 1945 in Europe, overshadowed almost all else for a time. In 1941, Breton went to the United States, where he founded the short lived magazine ''VVV'', which boasted high production values and a great deal of content, however its content was increasingly in French and not English. It was American poet Charles Henri Ford and his magazine ''View (magazine)'' which offered Breton a channel to promote surrealism in the United States. Ford and Breton had an on-again, off-again relationship. Breton felt Ford should work more specifically for surrealism, and Ford resented what he felt were Breton's attempts to make him ''toe the line''. Nevertheless, ''View'' published an interview between Breton and Nicolas Calas, as well as special issues on Tanguy and Ernst, and in 1945, on Marcel Duchamp. The special issue on Duchamp was crucial to the public understanding of surrealism in America. It stressed Duchamp's connections to surrealist methods, offered Breton's interpretations of Duchamp's work, as well as Breton's view that Duchamp represented the bridge between early modern movements, such as Futurism and cubism, with surrealism. According to Martica Sawin, the Second World War represents ''Surrealism in Exile'', and he traces the connections to the founding of the ''New York School'' focused on Abstract Expressionism, and the increasing influence of Existentialism as competing with, and in many cases displacing, surrealism's place in avant-garde. This view, that surrealism would be submerged by later movements, is held particularly by American art historians, many of whom link the end of the Second World War with the end of surrealism as an organized movement. === Surrealism after World War II === With Breton's return to France after the Second World War, a new phase in activity began in Paris. One action which attracted considerable attention was the choice of the phoenix to represent the new effort, and for a time it appeared that surrealism's ability to combine older perspectives and techniques with new insights (for example, the de-emphasis on Marxism) might bolster the argument for surrealism's continued importance in 20th century philosophy, art and literature. Breton continued to write and espouse the importance of the liberation of the human mind. For example in ''The Tower of Light'' in (1952), his critiques of rationalism and dualism found a new audience after the Second World War. His argument that returning to old patterns of behavior ensured a repeated cycle of conflict, seemed increasingly prophetic to French intellectuals as the Cold War mounted. Breton's insistence that surrealism was not an aesthetic movement, nor a series of techniques and tools, but instead the means to an ongoing revolt against the reduction of humanity to market relationships, religious gestures and misery, meant his ideas and stances were taken up by many, even those who had never heard of Breton, or read any of his work. The importance of living surrealism was repeated by Breton and by those writing about him. === The end of surrealism === There is no clear consensus about the end of the surrealist movement: some historians suggest that the movement was effectively disbanded by World War II, others treat the movement as extending through the 1950s. Art historian, Sarane Alexandrian, (1970) stated that ''the death of Andr� Breton in 1966 marked the end of surrealism as an organized movement.'' However, some who knew Breton, and were part of groups he founded or approved continued to be active until well after his death. For example, Czech Surrealism Group in Prague, though driven underground in 1968, re-emerged in the 1990s. Still other groups and artists, not directly connected to Breton, have claimed the surrealist label. In addition, surrealism, as a prominent critique of rationalism and capitalism, and a theory of integrated aesthetics and ethics influenced later movements, including many aspects of postmodernism. == Surrealism as an artistic movement == === Early surrealist visual arts === In general usage, the term ''surrealism'' is more often applied to the movement in visual arts than the original cultural and philosophical movement. As with many terms, the relationship between the two usages is a matter of debate outside the movement. (Other examples are Romanticism and Minimalism, which apply to different ideas and periods in differing contexts.) The relationship between the movement in visual arts, and surrealism as a political and philosophical movement is complex. Many surrealist artists regarded their work as an expression of the philosophical movement first and foremost, and Andr� Breton was explicit in his belief that surrealism was first and foremost a revolutionary movement. Since so many of the artists involved in surrealism came from the Dada movement, the demarcation between surrealism and Dada art, as with the demarcation between surrealism and Dada in general, is a drawn differently by different scholars. Andr� Masson's automatic drawing of 1923, are often used as a convenient point of difference, since they reflect the influence of the idea of ''the subconscious''. In 1924, Joan Mir� and Masson applied surrealism to painting explicitly leading to the ''La Peinture Surrealiste'' Exposition at Gallerie Pierre in 1925, which included work by Man Ray, Masson, Paul Klee and Mir� among others. It confirmed that surrealism had a component in the visual arts (though it was initially debated whether this was possible), even though surrealists used techniques from Dada such as photomontage. In 1926, on March 26 the Galerie Surrealiste opened with an exhibition by Man Ray. In 1928, Breton published ''Surrealism and Painting'', summarising the movement to that point, though he continued to update the work until the 1960s. The roots of surrealism in the visual arts run to both Dada and Cubism, as well as the abstraction of Wassily Kandinsky, Expressionism, and Post-Impressionism. However, it is not surrealist techniques which mark the surrealist movement in the visual arts, but the creation of objects from the imagination no matter what technique was used. One example is Alberto Giacometti's 1925 ''Torso'', which marked his movement to simplified forms and inspiration from pre-classical sculpture. Another striking example of the line used to divide Dada and surrealism among art experts is the pairing of 1925s [http://www.guggenheimcollection.org/images/lists/work/45_6_lg.jpg ''Von minimax dadamax selbst konstruiertes maschinchen''] with [http://www.guggenheimcollection.org/images/lists/work/45_4_lg.jpg ''Le Basier''] from 1927 by Max Ernst. The first is generally held to have a distance, and erotic subtext, whereas the second presents an erotic act openly and directly. In the second the influence of Mir� and Picasso's drawing style is visible with the use of fluid curving and intersecting lines, and colour, whereas the first takes a directness that was later influential in movements such as Pop art. Giorgio de Chirico was one of the important joining figures between the philosophical and visual aspects of surrealism. Between 1911 and 1917, he adopted a primary colour palette and unornamented epictional style whose surface was later adopted by other artists. '':Image:The Red Tower.jpg (La tour rouge)'' (1913) shows the stark colour contrasts and illustrative style adopted by later surrealist painters. His 1914 ''The Nostalgia of the Poet (La Nostalgie du poete)''[http://www.guggenheimcollection.org/site/artist_work_md_35_1.html] has the figure turned away from the viewer, and the juxtaposition of a bust with glasses and a fish as a relief which defies conventional realistic explanation. De Chirico not only painted, he also wrote. His novel ''Hebdomeros'' presents a series of dreamscapes with an unusual use of punctuation, syntax and grammar, designed to create a particular atmosphere and frame around its images. His images, including set designs for the Ballet Russe, created a decorative form of visual surrealism, and he influenced two artists who became even more closely associated with surrealism in the public mind — Salvador_Dal� and Magritte. [[Image:The Persistence of Memory.jpg|right|thumb|400px|''The Persistence of Memory'' by Salvador Dal�.]] === 1930s === In decade prior to the World War II surrealism grew in popularity comparable to the Pop art culture few decades later. The development of the surrealism in the 1930s is most often associated with Salvador Dal�, although many 21st century critics ignore the fact that Dal� separated from the official movement early in the decade. The popularity and commerical success of surrealism can partially be attributed to agressive marketing and self-promotion, which Dal� used effectively and which later became his trademark. Magritte and Dal� created the most widely recognized images of the movement. In 1929, Dal� joined the group and the rapid establishment of the visual style between 1930 and 1935. Surrealism as a visual movement had found a method: to expose ''psychological truth'' by stripping ordinary objects of their normal significance in order to create a compelling image that was beyond ordinary formal organization in order to evoke empathy from the viewer. In 1931, several surrealist painters produced works which marked turning points in their stylistic evolution. Magritte's ''Voice of Space (La Voix des airs)''[http://www.guggenheimcollection.org/site/artist_work_lg_92_2.html] is an example of this process. He painted three large spheres representing bells hanging above a landscape. Another surrealist landscape from this same year is Yves Tanguy's ''Promontory Palace (Palais promontoire)''[http://www.guggenheimcollection.org/site/movement_work_md_Surrealism_152_2.html], with its molten forms and liquid shapes. However, liquid shapes became the trademark of Dal�, particularly in his famous ''The Persistence of Memory'', featuring the famous image of clocks that sag as if they are made out of cloth. The characteristics of this style — a combination of the depictive, the abstract, and the psychological — came to stand for the alienation which many people felt in the Modernism period, combined with the sense of reaching more deeply into the psyche to be ''made whole with ones individuality''. Long after personal, political and professional tensions broke up the surrealist group, Magritte and Dal� continued to define a visual program in the arts. This program reached beyond painting, to encompass photography as well, as can be seen in a [http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/s/images/surreal_manra.selfp.lg.jpg Man Ray self portrait] whose use of Assemblage (art) influenced Robert Rauschenberg's collage boxes. During the 1930s Peggy Guggenheim, an important American art collector, married Max Ernst, and begin promoting work by other surrealists such as Yves Tanguy. However, by the outbreak of the Second World War in 1937, the taste of the avant-garde had swung decisively towards Abstract Expressionism with the support of key taste-makers, including Guggenheim. According to Micheal Bell, it was at this time that the two poles of surrealistic art, what he labels ''automatism'' and ''veristic surrealism'' became more pronounced, and, according to his interpretation of events, ''only automatism was accepted after the war'' because of its relationship to abstraction. In his writings he expresses a sympathy for the ''creative'' path of Dal� as the ''Veristic Surrealist'' over the ''automatist'' approach. === World War II and beyond === As with many artistic movements in Europe, the coming of the Second World War proved disruptive; both because of the rift between Andr� Breton and Salvador Dali over Dal�'s support of Francisco Franco, and because of a diaspora of the members of the surrealist movement itself. Dal� said to remain a surrealist forever was like ''painting only eyes and noses'', and declared he had embarked on a ''classic'' period. Max Ernst in 1962 said, ''I feel more affinity for some German Romantics''. Magritte began painting what he called his ''solar'' or ''Renoir'' style. However, the works continued. Many surrealist artists continued to explore their visual vocabularies, including Magritte. Many members of the surrealist movement continued to correspond and meet. In 1960, Magritte, Duchamp, Ernst, and Man Ray met in Paris. While Dal� may have been excommunicated by Breton, he neither abandoned the themes from the 1930s, including references to the ''persistence of time'' in a later painting, nor did he become a depictive ''pompier''. His [http://www.kalymnos-isl.gr/dimitri/dali-cla.htm classic period] did not represent so sharp a break with the past as some descriptions of his work portray. During the 1940s, surrealism's influence was also felt in England and America. Mark Rothko took an interest in bimorphic figures, and in England Henry Moore, Lucian Freud, Francis Bacon (painter) and Paul Nash used or experimented with surrealist techniques. However, Conroy Maddox, one of the first British surrealists (beginning in 1935), remained within the movement, and organized an exhibition of current surrealist work in 1978 in response to an exhibition which infuriated him because it did not properly represent surrealism. The exhibition, entitled ''Surrealism Unlimited'' took place at Camden Arts Centre, London and attracted international attention. He held his last one man show in 2002, shortly before his death in 2005. Magritte's work became more realistic in its depiction of actual objects, while maintaining the element of juxtaposition, such as in 1951's [http://www.atara.net/magritte/50s/personal-values.html ''Personal Values''] and 1954's [http://www.atara.net/magritte/50s/empire-of-light.jpg ''Empire of Light'']. Magritte continued to produce works which have entered artistic vocabulary, such as [http://www.atara.net/magritte/50s/castle-pyrenees.html ''Castle in the Pyrenees''] which refers back to ''Voix'' from 1931, in its suspension of objects over a landscape. Other figures in the surrealist movement were ''expelled'', for example Roberto Matta, but by their own description, ''remained close to surrealism.'' Many new artists explicitly took up the surrealist banner for themselves — some following what they saw as the path of Dal�, others holding to views they derived from Breton. Duchamp continued to produce sculpture, and, at his death, was working on an installation with the realistic depiction of a woman viewable only through a peephole. Dorothea Tanning and Louise Bourgeois continued to work, for example with Tanning's ''Rainy Day Canape'' from 1970. The 1960s saw an expansion of surrealism with the founding of The West Coast Surrealist Group as recognized by Breton's personal assistant Jose Pierre and also The Surrealist Movement in the United States. With the 1970s, surrealism's desire to be understandable became a point of departure for many artists. Among them, Mark Tansey, who regarded abstraction as fragmented and incomplete as a tool of artistic conversation. Since surrealism ceased to have as much cachet in the world of modern art criticism, there has been an explosion of self-identified surrealists, having no more connection to the original surrealist movement than an admiration for one or more aspects of it. A sampling of current working artists who identify in one way or another might include Howard Newman, Quentin Shih, Kunihiro Shinohara and Alan Turner. Surrealism as an artistic movement became practically invisible near the end of the 20th century, but surrealist elements are clearly present in the works of many contemporary artists. That surrealism has remained commercially successful and popularly recognized has lead many people associated with the Breton's surrealist group to criticise more general uses of the term. They argue that many self-identified surrealists are not grounded in Breton's work and the techniques of the movement. Surrealism remains enormously popular with museum patrons; the Tate Modern in 2001 held an exhibition of surrealist art that attracted over 170,000 visitors. An integral movement in the Modern period, surrealism proceeded to inspire a new generation seeking to expand the vocabulary of art. == Impact of surrealism == While surrealism is typically associated with the arts, it has been said to transcend them, and surrealism has impacted many other fields. In this sense, surrealism does not refer only to self-identified ''surrealists'', or those sanctioned by Breton, rather, it refers to a range of creative acts of revolt and efforts to liberate the imagination. In addition to surrealist ideas that are grounded in the ideas of Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, Karl Marx and Sigmund Freud, surrealism is seen by its advocates as being inherently dynamic and is dialectic in its thought. Surrealist groups have drawn on sources as seemingly diverse as Clark Ashton Smith, Bugs Bunny, comic strips, the obscure poet Samuel Greenberg and the hobo writer and humourist T-Bone Slim. Surrealist strands are found in movements such as Free Jazz (Don Cherry (jazz), Sun Ra, etc.) and even in the daily lives of people in confrontation with limiting social conditions. Thought of as the effort of humanity to liberate the imagination as an act of insurrection against society, surrealism dates back to, or finds precedents in, the alchemy, possibly Dante Alighieri, various heretical groups, Hieronymus Bosch, Donatien Alphonse Francois de Sade, Charles Fourier, Comte de Lautreamont and Arthur Rimbaud. Surrealists believe that ''non-Western'' cultures provide a continued source of inspiration for surrealist activity because some may strike a better balance between instrumental reason and the imagination in flight than Western culture. Some artists, such as H.R. Giger in Europe who won an Academy Award for his stage set, and who designed the ''creature'' in the movie ''Alien (movie),'' have been popularly called ''surrealists.'' However, Giger is a Visionary art and it is speculated that he doesn't claim to be surrealist. The Society for the Art of Imagination has come under bitter criticism from a self-characterised surrealist movement (although this criticism has been characterized by at least one anonymous individual as coming from ''the Marxists [sic] surrealist groups, who maintain small contingents worldwide.'' He has also pointed out what he considers the hypocrisy of any surrealist criticism of the Society for the Art of Imagination given that Kathleen Fox designed the cover of issue 4 of the bulletin of the Groupe de Paris du Mouvement Surrealiste and also participated in the 2003 Brave Destiny[http://wahcenter.net/exhibits/2003/surreal/index.html] show. Though some presented ''Brave Destiny'' as the largest-ever exhibit of surrealist artists, the show was officially billed as exhibiting ''Surrealism, Surreal/Conceptual art, Visionary, Fantastic art, Symbolism, Magic Realism, the Vienna School, Neuve Invention, Outsider art, Na�ve art, the Macabre, the Grotesque and Singulier Art.)'' A clear impact of surrealism is found in contemporary commercial illustration, especially for fantasy books and in the advertisement art. ===Surrealist music=== In the 1920s several composers were influenced by surrealism, or by individuals in the surrealist movement. Among them were Bohuslav Martinu, Andre Souris and Edgar Varese, who stated that his work ''Arcana'' was drawn from a dream sequence. Souris was associated with the surrealism movement. He had a long, if sometimes spotty, relationship with Magritte, and worked on Paul Nouge's publication ''Adieu Marie''. French composer Pierre Boulez wrote a piece called ''explosante-fixe'' (1972), inspired by Breton's ''mad love''. Even though Breton, by 1946, responded rather negatively to the subject of music in his essay ''Silence is Golden,'' later surrealists have been interested in, and found parallels to surrealism in, the improvisation of jazz and blues (surrealists, such as Paul Garon, wrote articles and full-length books on the subject). Jazz and blues musicians have occasionally reciprocated this interest. For example, the 1976 World Surrealist Exhibition included such performances by Honeyboy Edwards. Readers of the surrealists have also analysed reggae, rap, and some rock bands such as The Psychedelic Furs. In addition to musicians who have been influenced by surrealism (including some influence in rock — the title of the 1967 psychedelic music Jefferson Airplane album ''Surrealistic Pillow'' was obviously inspired by the movement), such as the experimental group Nurse With Wound (whose album title ''Chance meeting on a dissecting table of a sewing machine and umbrella'' is taken from a line in Lautreamont's ''Maldoror''), surrealist music has included such explorations as those of Hal Rammel. ===Surrealist film=== Surrealist films such as ''An Andalusian Dog (Un chien andalou)'' and ''The Golden Age (L'�ge d'Or)'' by Luis Bu�uel and Dal�. Surrealist and film theorist Robert Benayoun wrote books on Tex Avery, Woody Allen, Buster Keaton and the Marx Brothers. Some have described David Lynch as a surrealist filmmaker. He never participated in the surrealist movement or in any surrealist activity, but there are some aspects of many of his films that are of surrealist interest. ====External link==== * [http://wayney.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/surreal.htm Surreal Films] ===Surrealist television=== Some have found the television series ''The Prisoner'' and ''Lost (2004 television series)'' to be of surrealist interest. ==See also== ''The category :Category:Surrealism'' *Cacophony Society *Dada *Exquisite corpse game *Fluxus *Hysterical realism and Maximalism *List of surrealistic pieces *Mail art *Post-surrealism *Situationism *Surautomatism *Surrealist games *Surreal humour ===Techniques=== *Surrealist techniques *Aerography (arts) *Cut-up technique *Fumage *Paranoiac-critical method *Surrealist automatism ===List of artists, writers and filmakers=== Artists, including writers, involved in the early 20th century surrealism movement * Louis Aragon * Antonin Artaud * Georges Bataille * Andr� Breton * Victor Bregeda * Giorgio de Chirico * Ren� Crevel * Salvador Dal� * Paul �luard * Max Ernst * David Gascoyne * Valentine Hugo * Alberto Giacometti * Ren� Magritte * Joan Mir� * M�ret Oppenheim * Man Ray * Yves Tanguy Artists, including writers, whose work is often classified as ''surrealist'' but were not involved in the early 19th century movement * Frida Kahlo ==Sources== * Guillaume Apollinaire (1917, 1991). Program note for ''Parade'', printed in ''Oeuvres en prose compl�tes'', 2:865-866, Pierre Caizergues and Michel D�caudin, eds. Paris: �ditions Gallimard. * Andr� Breton. ''The Abridged Dictionary of Surrealism'', reprinted in: ** Marguerite Bonnet, ed. (1988). ''Oeuvres compl�tes'', 1:328. Paris: �ditions Gallimard. * Andr� Breton, ''Conversations: The Autobiography of Surrealism'' (Gallimard 1952) (Paragon House English rev. ed. 1993). ISBN 1569249709. * ''What is Surrealism?: Selected Writings of Andr� Breton'' (edited and with an Introduction by Franklin Rosemont). ISBN 0873488229. * Andr� Breton, ''Manifestoes of Surrealism'' containing the 1^st, 2^nd and introduction to a possible 3^rd Manifesto, and in addition the novel ''The Soluble Fish'' and political aspects of the surrealist movement. ISBN 0472179004. * Gerard Durozoi, ''History of the Surrealist Movement'' (translated by Alison Anderson, University of Chicago Press). ISBN 0226174115. * Franklin Rosemont , ''Surrealism and Its Popular Accomplices'' San Francisco, CA: City Lights Books (1980). ISBN 087286121X. * Brotchie, Alastair and Gooding, Mel, eds. ''A Book of Surrealist Games'' Berkeley, CA: Shambhala (1995). ISBN 1570620849. * Alexandrian, Sarane. ''Surrealist Art'' London:Thames & Hudson, 1970. * Melly, George ''Paris and the Surrealists'' Thames & Hudson 1991 * Lewis, Helena ''The Politics Of Surrealism'' 1988 * Mary Ann Caws ''Surrealist Painters and Poets: An Anthology'' 2001 MIT Press ==External links== *[http://www.tcf.ua.edu/Classes/Jbutler/T340/SurManifesto/ManifestoOfSurrealism.htm Manifesto of Surrealism by Andr� Breton] *[http://pers-www.wlv.ac.uk/~fa1871/whatsurr.html "What is Surrealism?" Lecture by Breton, Brussels 1934] *[http://www.surrealisms.com/ Surrealism on the Web: A collection of information on surrealism, surreal artists, and surreal websites.] *[http://www.madsci.org/~lynn/juju/surr/surrealism.html The surrealism server] *[http://www.fantasyarts.net/Fantasy_Art_History.htm Biographies and works of the Surrealist masters] *Surrealist Groups **[http://home.ti.cz/~surreal/surrealindex.html Czech and Slovak Surrealist Group] **[http://www.serbiansurrealism.com/ The Surrealist Movement in Serbia] **[http://www.surrealistmovement-usa.org/ The Surrealist Movement in the United States] Art movements Cultural movements Surrealism Modernism

Surrealism

Articles related to surrealism. Art movements Visual art movements Cultural movements Modernism Postmodernism

Surrealism

==Long Intro== It seems to me that the intro to this article is too long: it pushes the table of contents off of the bottom of the screen! If no one else takes up this project, i think i'm going to try to move some of the content out of the top of the page into the named sections below. Any input? User:Jes5199 17:10, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Dear Stirling,...== Franklin Rosemont is friends with Boyer and I cannot stand by and watch this article be given away to Daniel C.Boyer or any of his friends. Franklin Rosemont is NOT the person who carries on Breton's work!!! That I will never tolerate, please do not allow one self-labeled surrealist gain all the credit for carrying on Breton's work. There are countless experts on Surrealism, Mary Ann Caws (in particular) and others and I do recommend that you try to get in touch with them, if you need to work on this article. However, as for Surrealism after Breton, NOBODY gets credit for personally carrying on the work of Breton!!!!!!User:24.168.66.27 05:22, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Mary Ann Caws' work is riddled with inaccuracies, distortions and glaring errors, as was thoroughly documented in ''Arsenal''. This self-labeled expert on surrealism should not be listened to to the exclusion of surrealists, especially as these self-described experts have fabricated, while failing to give any reason for it whatsoever, that surrealism is "over." Moreover, Rosemont is only one of the significant figures who have carried on surrealism; if you feel that others have been neglected, include mention of them in the article, but not to mention Rosemont (look up the ''Grove Dictionary of Art'', for example, if you need ''expertise''), given his significance, is to have a significant axe to grind. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 15:43, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::We are not here to "decide" which POVs on surrealism are "correct", we are here to document those that have made themselves notable, and what they said - including what they have said about each other. If there are critiuqes of particular works on surrealism, then it is certainly reasonable to include those critics. Rosemont, regardless of one's position on his work, has published a number of books on Surrealism, these books are cited by others, and the Surrealist Group of Chicago has been recognized as a voice in the meaning of post-Breton Surrealism. The same for each of them. This page is not the web site of belonging to a particular group. ::It is disheartening to see so many editors fighting to try and remove information, and mixing their edits in an attempt to make it difficult to separate positive contributions from attempts to censor POVs on Surrealism they do not like. :::But you are also guilty of this; you have repeatedly removed information without stating what you have against it, such as that on ''VVV'', the World Surrealist Exhibition, Breton's statement that surrealism would continue after him, &c. That said, I do think that the article has improved significantly, and it strikes me that a lot of the information in it about surrealism not as an artistic movement later on could be merged with that at the beginning, or ''vice versa''. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 17:32, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::It is further disheartening because this infighting is preventing the page from reaching a thorough documentation of the activities of surrealists and surrealist groups, the impact of surrealism on contemporaneous and contemporary movements, and so on. If editors would spend the time currently fighting over putting POV in the top few paragraphs, or removing ''personae non grata'' from the text - on documenting the material then the presentation would be far better. ::More over, there is a tremendous amount of work involved in linking surrealism and its major figures into other parts of wikipedia. Currently there are dozens of articles on post-structuralism and post-modernism, and few, if any, contain proper referencing of the influence of Breton's work on figures such as Lacan, Derrida and others. The surrealist film section here is a stub - it does not mention, for example ''Wild Strawberries'' or other works which attempted to translate ideas of surrealism into film. It does not talk about the relationship of Surrealism to French Cinema, particularly Jean Renoir - one of the most important figures in the history of film making. ::I would ask the other editors to place as a priority 1) increasing, not decreasing what is documented 2) increasing the depth of what is documented - why is Rosemont's own article a stub? If he is important, why isn't he getting the space? If he is wrong, why aren't his positions critiqued? There are half a dozen articles linked off of this page which are a in a similar shabby condition. 3) Increasing the breadth of linking to this article, so that Surrealism's impact on other figures, works and movements be visible to other readers. The more links, the more traffic, the more traffic, the more people will read the page and come to understand the importance of the movement in all of its manifestations. ::Presently people have heard the world "surreal" or "surrealism" and associate it with a limited range of contexts, the best that this article can do is give them the entire range of meanings, and make some attempt to document the connections between them. Declarations about which sources are "primary" is counterproductive - Dali wrote on Surrealism, as did many other people who were regarded as important surrealists, they didn't all agree with Breton. :::True, but there are ''none'' of these sources that would say that surrealism is an artistic movement. None. --User:Daniel C. Boyer ::Even Breton didn't always agree with Breton - which one reason that Surrealism maintained its importance to intellectual currents long after many of the competing intellectual revolutionary movements were reduced to footnotes and scraps of paper. ::On a personal note, dealing with editors who seem to regard this page as their own, and Surrealism as Surrealism(tm), goes against the entire grain of a movement which offered one of the most influential critiques of ownership and attempts to impose particular interpretations on the past. Breton's plea that art must be done by all, and not one, surely applies: and it is to have faith that those works which reflect the eternal realities of the human condition will, over time assert themselves. ::Since the topic of post-Breton surrealism seems sufficiently sensitive I would propose that it be written here first, and editted here first, until everyone is certain that all of the major figures, works and POV's of Surrealism after his death have been represented. :::O.k. Proposal accepted. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 18:51, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::Further, I propose that the section on Surrealism as a movement during Breton's life time - a period that spans from 1919-1966, or some 47 years, be given a full documentation, because it is only in the context of his work and activities that readers can judge for themselves the relationship of the other uses of the term "Surrealism". ::More over, there is a major rewrite needed on the influence of surrealism in the context of critical theory and the disputes there in. User:Stirling Newberry 17:04, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::There is currently a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment Request for comment on this page], should Mr. Boyer continue to attempt to disrupt the page, I will RFC his behavior. :::But I would argue that you have, to some degree, disrupted this article. What about the removals of material you don't even argue with, or argue against the relevance of? --User:Daniel C. Boyer 17:32, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) :::: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation] Request for mediation filed against Daniel C Boyer. I am going to request that he be warned on his behavior on this page specifically for violating NPOV and for repeated vandalism of the page, as well as personal attacks. Mr. Boyer, I don't have anything further to say to you at this point. User:Stirling Newberry 17:34, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::::: Notice how you have ducked what I am saying. Request for mediation filed against Stirling Newberry. I am going to request that he be warned on his behavior on this space specificially for repeated vandalism of this page. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 18:51, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::I refer new people coming to this talk page to the previous archives on a proposed outline on the page. As for Mr. Boyer being friends with Mr. Rosemont, this could be all to the good if he spends time documenting Mr. Rosemont's works and activities as part of the article rather than as the point of the article. User:Stirling Newberry 17:28, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) ---- I have temporarily moved this here so people can work on it as per Stirling Newberry's proposal, and I've a few notes on it. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:09, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) === The Second World War and Beyond === As with many artistic movements in Europe, *this assumes POV that surrealism is an artistic movement, and that it is limited to Europe. A surrealist group, e.g., already existed in Japan prior to this. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:09, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) the coming of the Second World War proved disruptive: both because of the rift between Breton and Dali over Dali's support for Francisco Franco, and because of a diaspora of the members of the surrealist movement itself. Mark Tansey's painting [http://www.marin.cc.ca.us/art107/tanseyTriumphNY.jpg The Triumph of the New York School] depicts what might be called the orthodox history of modernism: namely that European movements, particularly those lead by Picasso and the surrealists, were supplanted by Abstract Expressionism. By this point many surrealist artists had begun to deny surrealism: Dali said to remain a surrealist forever was like "painting only eyes and noses", and declared he had embarked on a "classic" period; Max Ernst in 1962 said "I feel more affinity for some German Romantics". Magritte began painting what he called his "solar" or "renoir" style. *O.k., but why is the discussion limited to "surrealist artists"? What about those who were surrealist writers, and what about those surrealists who were neither writers nor artists? --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:09, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) However the works continued, many surrealist artists continued to explore their vocabularies, including Magritte. Many members of the surrealist movement continued to correspond and meet, in 1960, Ren� Magritte, Marcel Duchamp, Max Ernst, and Man Ray met in Paris. *Neglects fact that meetings of groups continued, and had even more attendance, e.g. Paris Surrealist Group. Gives a distinct misimpression. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:09, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) And while Dali may have been excommunicated by Breton, he neither abandoned the themes from the 1930's, including references to the "persistence of time" in a later painting, nor did he become a depictive "pompier". [http://www.kalymnos-isl.gr/dimitri/dali-cla.htm His classic period] did not represent so sharp a break with the past as some descriptions of his work might lead one to believe. Magritte's work became more realistic in its depiction of actual objects, while maintaining the element of juxtaposition, such as in [1951]'s [http://www.atara.net/magritte/50s/personal-values.html Personal Values] and 1954's [http://www.atara.net/magritte/50s/empire-of-light.jpg Empire of Light]. Magritte continued to produce works which have entered artistic vocabulary, such as [http://www.atara.net/magritte/50s/castle-pyrenees.html Castle in the Pyrenees] which refers back to ''Voix'' from 1931, in its suspension over a landscape. Other figures from the surrealist movement were "expelled", for example Roberto Matta, but by their own description, "remained close to surrealism." More over, many new artists explicitly took up the surrealist banner for themselves, *Again, POV that surrealism is an artistic movement. What about surrealists who were/are not artists? --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:09, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) some following what they saw as the path of Dali, others holding to views they derrived from Breton, still others taking surrealism as inspiration. Duchamp continued to produce sculpture and, at his death, was working on an installation with the realistic depiction of a woman viewable only through a peephole. Dorothea Tanning and Louise Bourgeois continued to work, for example with Tanning's ''Rainy Day Canape'' from 1970. With the 1970's, Surrealism's desire to be understandable, *Documentation? Surrealism desiring to be understandable? Give me a break. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:09, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) Duchamp quipped the only universal "ism" is eroticism, it became a point of departure for many artists, including Mark Tansey, who regard abstraction as fragmented, and incomplete as a tool of artistic conversation. It also remains enormously popular with museum patrons, the Tate Modern in 2001 held an exhibition of Surrealist Art that attracted over 170,000 vistors in its run. Surrealism, having been one of the most important of movements in the Modern period, proceded to inspire a new generation seeking to rebel, or expand, the vocabulary of art, that the Modern period focused on. *If you are going to say this, surrealist denunciation/protest of "surrealist" shows should be mentioned somewhere in article beyond "Brave Destiny," although text could be merged to some extent and this used as an example. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:09, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) Since "Surrealism" ceased to have as much cachet in the world of modern art criticism, there has been an explosion of self-identified surrealists, having no more connection to the original surrealist movement than an admiration for one or more aspects of it. A sampling of current working artists who identify in one way or another might include Howard Newman, Quentin Shih, Kunihiro Shinohara and Alan Turner. *What is this about the "original surrealist movement"? POV. Not too bad (besides citing a bunch of people with no connexion to surrealism), but "original surrealist movement" should be identified as POV. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:09, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) That surrealism has remained commercially successful and popularly recognized has lead many people associated with the Surrealist Groups that Breton established to criticise more general uses of the term, and to argue that many self-identified surrealists are not grounded in Breton's work, the techniques of the movement, or even basic talent and ability. *This characterisation is wildly off. Gobbledygook. Don't you know that in surrealism, "talent" is a dirty word? --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:09, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) The 1960s saw an expansion of surrealism with the founding of The West Coast Surrealist Group as recognized by Andre Breton's personal assistant Jose Pierre and also The Surrealist Movement in the United States, and surrealist groups around the world, including many in areas in which surrealism had not previously existed, such as the Surrealist Group of Pakistan. *Should include mention of ''VVV'' and World Surrealist Exhibition, at a minimum. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:09, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) I added a paragraph, in the section on Surrealist history, WWII era, about a little-known movement within the Surrealist movement, the Da Costas, as well as cleaned up some ungrammatical wording a little further up.--David Westling 4/26/05 7:11 UTC == Clarity about the "artistic movement" dispute == As a recent drop-in here, I am confused about the nature of the objection to Surrealism an "artistic movement." Some of the objections simply seem directed at the implication that it was a "visual art" movement. Of course it wasn't only, or even primarily, that, and the fact that Surrealism did not begin or end with visual art should be made clear. But I also don't think "artistic movement" conflicts with a more expansive definition that crosses formal and other categories. "Art" or "Artistic" ,in that sense, casts a very wide umbrella. Other objections here seem to insist that surrealism was no kind of movement at all. That part I just don't understand, unless you want to separate Surrealist ideas from Surrealist activity. Please clarify. User:68.164.132.95 19:31, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Thoughts on the article== User 24. is right about this Rosemont being a self-labeled surrealist. Boyer's argument that his friend is significant because of a submission to an online website GROVE shows the lack of credibility in his assertion. :Your assuming that ''printed'' source edited by others is an online source Rosemont submitted to himself, without any basis for your assumption, shows your bias. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 15:50, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) Ask yourself this, did Prof. William Rubin (in 1968) document the surrealist (upon curating Dada, Surrealism and its Heritage in NY and Chicago in 68) activities of Rosemont and his group? The answer is NO! :They denounced this with both a statement and counter-exposition. And who cares what anti-surrealist Rubin "documents"? --User:Daniel C. Boyer 15:50, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) You see, after Breton died in 1966, a self-labeled surrealist and a small group of his marginal radical friends called themselves The Chicago Surrealist Group and have announced themselves as THE SURREALIST MOVEMENT IN THE USA. So, ask yourself, this simple question as a serious researcher who is sincerely interested in surrealism, WHERE ARE THERE ANY PICTURES OF THE CHICAGO SURREALIST GROUP that DOCUMENTS THEIR SURREALIST ACTIVITIES?????? There are many documented photographs of surrealists (in group pictures too) that show their activities and explorations. Can Boyer scan a few copies of ARSENAL to help us out? :Why do you have this obsession with computerized sources? Have you ever heard of a library? Why if someone has provided a citation is he, in your opinion, obliged to "scan a few copies" of it? --User:Daniel C. Boyer 15:50, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) If you want Boyer's friend to be mentioned as a historic figure in surrealism for this aricle, then go ahead. I do suggest that you will need to be true to the record and PROVE that this man, Rosemont is real (first, show us a recent picture of him) :Because he ceases to be "real" with the passage of time? Where did you get this idea that photographs have to be provided of everyone to prove they are "real"? --User:Daniel C. Boyer 15:50, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) and PLEASE provide any visual and text-reference material that we can access WITHOUT having to make a purchase from Franklin and Penelope's "BLACK SWANN" Mom and Pop Store for Radicalism!!!! :If you don't want to buy the books from them, check them out of a library. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 15:50, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) As for Boyer, Hey Dan, you need to go back and re-read what Breton had to say on the record in "INDICE", May 1935. I still have NOT seen evidence of any, "necessity of social revolution" provided by you and your friends, except for a price. By the way, at the bottom of the Wikipedia Surrealism article page, there is a book referenced, called, "SURREALIST SUBVERSIONS" by Ron Sakolsky. Daniel C.Boyer is in the book and you are helping promote SALES of a book while giving special priviledge :I don't have any "priviledge" [sic] that you do not have. Everyone is free to edit Wikipedia. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 15:50, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) to an editor who is also a contributor to the book that is on the article page as a reference. Bling, Bling$$$ right Dan?User:63.169.104.2 22:57, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Recent drop-in here. Franklin Rosemont is for real--he edited a copy of the magazine "Cultural Correspondence" in the late 70s that was reprinted as "Surrealism and its Popular Accomplices" by City Lights Books (the beat poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti's press in San Francisco) that was quite widely distributed for years--it may still be available, I don't know. It consists of a bunch of short articles (including a few by FR) that take a very expansive view of surrealism--basically, the book looks at works in popular culture (e..g. The pre-surrealist comic strips "Little Nemo in Slumberland" and the "Upside-Downs", Buster Keaton, the Marx brothers, "Voodoo" Blues, an early article on Henry Darger) that somehow seem to partake in a surrealist sensibility. It did include a few bits by and about contemporary surrealist practitioners, most of whom I've never encountered elsewhere. The anthology argues here and there for an ongoing surrealist movement, but mostly it just discusses stuff that seems interesting from the perspective of an admirer of surrealisist ideas, with some emphasis on the associated leftist cultural critique. Anyway, the guy (or someone using that name) is for real. User:68.164.132.95 23:26, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) User 63 comments on Franklin Rosemont appears to be questioning the validity of Mr."Andre" Rosemont, but I will definitely agree that he is real. Yes, we all know that Mr.Rosemont is real, but is he a real historic and significant figure in contemporary surrealism, even considering the period from after Breton's death, 1966, to now? I do fully agree and know that Franklin Rosemont is real and he is alive and living in Chicago. What kills me is that anyone who is seriously interested in surrealism and the wants to do some serious research as well, has much difficutly in obtaining any extensively documented material, basically the RESULTS of the Chicago Group's Surrealist Explorations and Activities, without having to pay a price$$$$. He and his wife do run a, "store" hawking $urrealist publications that are completely the dominant containment of him and his group of friends. 63 has a point. There is so much visual material of surrealist groups in pictures alone, that provide a worthy investigative research into this wonderful movement, from the 20's to the 50's, but after 1959, it does go kind of downhill from there, I am referring to the visual group pictures, etc,etc. Remember the sleeping pictures of DESNOS? They are historic, but also very enlightening and revealing. Even some of the apparently staged surrealist group photos of Breton and company in the 20's (them all huddled around Breton's first wife at the typewriter or the picture from the 1930's of the surrealist group listening to a reading by Gisele Prassinos) still provide very good evidence for RESEARCH! Boyer can prove me wrong here on this point, but didn't Rosemont and his group FAIL at creating ANY LASTING SOCIAL ACTION for Surrealism? Wouldn't that fact be recognized in the history books? It is not. Oh, before I forget, in Mr.Rosemont's edited book by Andre Breton, "What is Surrealism" (Pathfinder Press, $34.95) go to page 471 and read Franklin's own words, "The French group, it is true, later disbanded after a long internal crisis." He is referring to the GPMS, Paris Surrealist Group in the years around 1968 to 69, two years after Breton died. Jean Schuster did disband the group. I recently went to the current, "GPMS: Paris Surrealists" website (that is what you see online now, Marie D. Massoni, Guy Girard,etc) and I came across a statement from one of their, "members" that the group did not disband, I think it was Vincent Bounoure or Michel Zimbacca (Boyer can again prove me wrong, I do encourage it Dan) that they claim it never ended, but hey, isn't that statement a little late on the fugazi?User:24.168.66.27 05:24, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) :You can include this information (debate as to whether or not the group disbanded) in the surrealism article, though it may be a little too detailed for this and you might want to include it in the GPMS article. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 15:50, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) == Surrealism After Breton == The "Surrealism after Breton" should document all of the above POVs. NPOV means documenting POVs and giving some ability of the reader to judge credibility. 1. Whatever anyone thinks of Rosemont. He is notable - there are paper publications and recognitions of the Surrealist Group of Chicago in places such as the New York Review of Books. Not friendly recognition, but "notable" is the standard here. Having published and been commented on by others means notable. :Agreed. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 21:20, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) 2. Document the controversy - if there are conflicting statements about what happened to Surrealist groups after Breton, then it is NPOV to document who said what about whom. :Agreed, so long as it is truly NPOV and comprehensive. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 21:20, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) 3. Document the activity - I have been trying to add bits that link to documentable activity of Surrealists, including Post-Breton shows and exhibitions. There were shows including new works in 2000 and 2002 by people who had been in Paris in the 1930's. :As long as this is not restricted to "shows and exhibitions," agreed. Plus there is no reason to exclude exhibitions by The Surrealist Movement in the United States and other "new" groups including the World Surrealist Exhibition (which was the most extensive-ever surrealist exhibition). Other shows, such as the 1993 Totems Without Taboos show, are perhaps too great a level of detail to get into here. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 21:20, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) 4. Document influence. User:Stirling Newberry 13:55, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) == Surrealism the category == Added Chagall, Maddox, Gascoyne to Category Surrealism. Added Surreaslism to Modernism and Postmodernism. User:Stirling Newberry 13:57, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Should Surrealism really be included under Postmodernism? --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:57, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Boyer statement for today== exact quote, "Moreover, Rosemont is only one of the significant figures who have carried on surrealism". Well, Dan, I kindly ask you, please PROVE that your friend is, "significant"? I ask Stirling to contact Mary Ann Caws (she is an expert on Surrealism, no matter what Boyer says) and I think you can reach her at the CUNY (in New York City) University, or just go to her site and drop her a note. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't she and Jennifer Mundy (another expert on Surrealism) CURATE the, "SURREALISM DESIRE UNBOUND" exhibit at the Musuem of Modern Art in 2002? They have a book on it too, I have it, its real good. I think Mary Ann Caws has a website and contact info, see what she has to say about the, "significance" of the man who trashes her in his publication, ARSENAL?User:24.168.66.27 05:41, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Document the controversy. User:Stirling Newberry 13:47, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==So, how is this article now?== Well,Daniel, how do you think this article is going now?User:63.169.104.2 21:03, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Ok, put Rosemont in== but please take out the brainstorming passage, it is complete garbage and it ruins the article. Please take it out. It might be a good idea to let Boyer present material that is more credible to the article. Stirling, I am going to have ask you to please sit back and re-think any future additions you make to this article. You place way too much emphasis on how surrealism has, "influenced" many of the components of what surrealism originally intended to destroy. When someone removed one of your HUGE additions, it is not vandalism, by the way. I am going to have to ask you to let Boyer review this article and present the material that really upholds the integrity of surrealism, while creating a great article. Boyer(though I do hate him) has more knowledge of surrealism than you. Stirling, you really have no real grasp of surrealism, if you did, you would know that it really intends to (leave as its cultural legacy) overthrow capitalist society. This article makes me want to puke.User:24.168.66.27 05:30, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Instead of trying edit wars, censorship, blanking, turf edits and so on. Why not write a section on "the aims of the Surrealist Movement"? User:Stirling Newberry 14:16, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) (edited my own typo) User:Stirling Newberry 21:09, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) :This might be a good idea. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 15:12, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) == Honolulu Surrealist Group/Portland Surrealist Group == Are these really notable? Wiki isn't a web guide. Is there someone associated with either who is notable? The Chicago Surrealist Group is notable - one can find examples of who they are and what they did. HSG on google comes up with --- 3 hits. Have they run an exhibition? These have been taken out and put in several times. Alternate suggestion if they are not notable is to have a page "List of Surrealist Groups" - and :Portland surrealism is supposedly an influence on Chuck Pahlaniuk. For what that's worth! ==A message to Stirling in good faith about the "brainstorming" passage== Stirling, I can see that you are intent on letting the "brainstorming" passage stay in the article. To avoid any edit war, I will no longer remove the passage, since you feel that the information is important to the article. I just need to know that the reference source IS from any books on Surrealism and where I can find it. Also, can the passage be condensed at least? It is real long, but that is how I see it.User:24.168.66.27 18:55, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) :I withdrawing it as too controversial for this group. The relationship of Brainstorming and Surrealism is a commonly established link in what is called "creativity studies". User:Stirling Newberry 19:07, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::My suggestion would be that the brainstorming passage be pruned down to be quite short as it is really, at best, of minor significance to the article. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:36, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::I agree with Dan about the brainstorming. Very minimal as long as it documents surrealist explorations and automatism, which Stirling can provide information on, I could live with it.User:24.168.66.27 02:23, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Another message to Stirling and to all about Contemporary Surrealism today== Stirling, I need to let you know that IF there is ever going to be any passage or paragraph on Contemporary Surrealism or Surrealism after Breton, I must stress the importance of this fact as it is inevitable to begin with, as you will see. ANY, "Surrealist Groups" and any, "Surrealists" that are active today and operating under the surrealist label are: SELF-LABELED or SELF-IDENTIFIED SURREALISTS, even if they share affinities with one another and acknowledge the other as an authentic surrealist, they are not!!!! There is no such thing as, "being a surrealist" because some relative fellow traveller and unknown claims they are. Stirling, Daniel C.Boyer is a SELF-IDENTIFIED SURREALIST and so are his friends. They are: "The Portland Surrealist Group" consisting of Brandon Freels and MK Shibek (real name Jim Redden) and Morgan Miller (who is a bartender in Portland) and two others whose names I forget, they claim to be authentic surrealists, but they are not. Then there is "The St.Louis Surrealist Group", which consists of Andrew Torch and Ronnie Burke and Susan Burke, obviously you can see that this is a group of three friends. Then there is Eric W.Bragg, a self-identified surrealist who runs a terrible do-it and build it yourself website, surrealcoconut.com who writes about himself on his website and his friends as contemporary surrealists. They are self-identified surrealists and the website is very misleading too. Then there is this "Honolulu Group" that Boyer tries to keep promoting on here in the links section, that NOBODY knows about. Then there is Xtian and Lady Hannah Cadaver, from Melbourne, Australia. They are two self-identified surrealists, who are really Goth Artists, who are also friends of Boyers. In fact, everyone mentioned above is friends and collaborators of Boyers. Then you have Zazie, a self-identified surrealist and friend of Boyer's, who is really a WEBIST and denies this fact! She exhibited all over Europe in Webism Art Events and now she claims she is an Ex-webist because the self-identified surrealists in the "GPMS, Paris Surrealist Group" denounced Webism in a public statement. Stirling, can you see why Boyer is so intent on editing this article with his POV? Stirling, when I was rude to you, I apologized. When I insulted you, I apologized and when I removed your edits, I offered good faith in no longer editing what you wanted in, like the brainstorming. At least I can work with you. Boyer has an angenda to promote him and his friends as surrealists and they are the ones who really capitalize on this great movement, and they are all full of shit. That is a fact.User:24.168.66.27 19:18, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) The standard is notability. Has anyone other than members of this group written about thm as surrealists? User:Stirling Newberry 20:31, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) :What group do you mean here? I can reiterate that Rosemont is mentioned in the ''Grove Dictionary of Art'', and add that the World Surrealist Exhibition was written about in ArtNEWS, as part of the extensive media coverage of that event. I would also look at the Amazon.com entry on Penelope Rosemont's ''Surrealist Women'' (published by the University of Texas Press) and note that Franklin Rosemont online for Britannica. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:25, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) There was an excellent book called, "Making History" about Surrealism written by Kristen Strom, that does have Franklin Rosemont's, edited book, "What is Surrealism" by Andre Breton mentioned in its index. As for the people mentioned above, the answer is no. Again, I recommend that if you are REALLY interested in getting the facts on Surrealism, get in touch with Mary Ann Caws. These friends of Boyer's are really a scattering of writers, poets and artists that claim they are surrealists, like the pirate-radio expert Ron Sakolsky's "Surrealist Subversions" which Boyer is a contributor. That is why I protest any edits by Boyer in the Surrealism article, he DOES have a stake in promoting him and his friends and Wikipedia Surrealism articles and surrealist related articles are there for him to exploit. Even the, "Craven Destiny" turned out to be a major dud, as did the attempts by Zazie and Boyer's friends to morph Webism with Surrealism, also backfired on them, big time! Even Zazie's comrades denounced the Webism Art Movement. Stirling, you are really new to all of this, I can see. Its a shame you were not around to see what Boyer's friends did to Now Surreal.User:24.168.66.27 20:46, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) I've been in contact with Mary Ann Caws already, along with some other people on post-Breton Surrealism. The question is not whether I approve of their activities, the question is whether it is notable. I've heard of Ron Sakolsky, which means the entire controversy at least impinges on being notable. If there is a controversy, then it is to us to document it. Is there a page on Webism, a denunciation is, at least, notability. User:Stirling Newberry 21:08, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) Need to add Radovan Ivsic and Annie LeBrun. User:Stirling Newberry 21:08, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) Oh yes, Annie LeBrun, who was active in surrealism from 1963 to 1969, and is still active (on and off), yes, yes?User:24.168.66.27 21:30, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) Yes. User:Stirling Newberry 21:48, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) :You might want to read about her, and many other women who participated after the ''approved period'' of surrealism, in ''Surrealist Women''. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:26, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Stirling, please take a look at this overwhelming evidence== Stirling, please take a look at this overwhelming evidence regarding WHY Daniel C.Boyer is so intent on promoting his POV and version of the Surrealism article. Please take a look at this URL here on Wikipedia no less and read down to the second paragraph, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Daniel_C._Boyer "Two of my articles, "Are You Crazy?: Mental Illness and Whiteness" and "Seattle 1999 - Just the Beginning," and one of my drawings, "The Breakfast Club," were published in Surrealist Subversions, edited and introduced by Ron Sakolsky." Now, Stirling, go to the Wikipedia Surrealism article and scroll down to SOURCES and look for the Sakolsky book, which Boyer blantantly promotes on here. I will remove this from the article tomorrow. It cannot stay while Boyer is allowed to edit this article to promote him and his friends. Stirling, I also ask that a complete review of the Surrealism article be made and any and all of Boyer's edits and additions be investigated with the fullest degree of scrutiny to prevent anyone from using this service to promote their goods. Stirling, I will continue to support your edits, even those I disagree with and challenge, I will do so in good faith.User:24.168.66.27 21:11, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) Notability is fairly simple: has anyone other than themselves taken them seriously? Franklin Rosemont is cited by others, and hence, notable. Since I am adding entries such as Robert Barro, Henry Jenkins and Mary Ann Caws - people should be at least at that level of notability. User:Stirling Newberry 22:00, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Stirling, what did Mary Ann Caws say to you?== Stirling, what did Mary Ann Caws say to you? Please let us all know! Also, please SPECIFY the SOURCE of the, "Notability" that you assign to your subjects. By the way, Stirling, are you recently NEW to Surrealism, that is, in studying and researching it? Please let us know.User:24.168.66.27 21:17, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) Also, please name the people from the post-Breton era that you spoke to and please tell us what they had to say to you, for the benefit of the surrealism article.User:24.168.66.27 21:23, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Stirling, what did Mary Ann Caws say to you and who are the people that you spoke to from the post-Breton era?== We need to know.User:24.168.66.27 21:41, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) It was Prof Caws recomendation to add Annie LeBrun and Radovan Ivsic. On the advice of others, I linked in Maddox and Gascoyne, and made some changes to Marc Chagall. A friend who is a professor of literature remembered the Shattuck incident and allowed me to find the NYRB letter from the Chicago Surrealist Group. In each case sources, or enough to find sources, were provided, and therefore stand on their own, or not, based on those sources. User:Stirling Newberry 21:46, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) Yes, the Roger Shattuck reply (from 1972) is old news, but very helpful for those interested in researching how uncompromising and obnoxious, "The Arsenal Group" was in their own words as can be found here at this link. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/10133 User:24.168.66.27 04:46, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) :If we didn't look at art by obnoxious people, we'd be left with very little. User:Stirling Newberry 04:53, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) Then Shattuck ends his brilliant response to these gasbags, "I urge them to read the best and most recent account of Surrealism by a participant: Andr� Thirion's R�volutionnaires sans R�volution". Remember Stirling, this was back in 1972 and even Shattuck states his doubt about this, "group". Notice how he does not state in writing that the, "Arsenal Group" are active participants in surrealism and recommends they read Thirion's personal account. Then ask yourself if Rosemont and company then responded to Shattuck's reply on record and if they did, where can we find it? Stirling, please try to examine this information with severe critical scrutiny if you are going to consider writing any information on Rosemont and his group. I always thought they were full of shit, but that is only my opinion. I know Dan is full of shit, he signed a protest letter, Craven Destiny, stating in writing no less, that he and his friends would show up to the WAH to, "burn all the paintings, etc, etc." They never even showed up to protest.User:24.168.66.27 05:02, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) :And Boulez said we should blow up all the opera houses, and later ran one. What is more important is, again, notability. Franklin Rosemont, himself has reached notability, even if a negative kind. What I have not found is anyone who takes the rest of that branch of surrealism seriously ''as surrealists'' other than themselves. ::Could you please explain why those outside the movement alone are qualified to say who are surrealists and on what basis the Chicago Surrealist Group ''may'' not be to be "taken seriously ''as surrealists''?" Is there any argument here whatsoever besides a dislike of surrealism itself? --User:Daniel C. Boyer 17:05, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Citations anyone? Clearly they exist, but it is easy to get hoardes of websites with references. I'm looking for neutral documentation such as "The Portland Surrealist Group held an exhibition of computer automatic drawings" etc. etc. User:Stirling Newberry 15:03, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::Here we go again with your novel POV that surrealism is an artistic movement. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 17:05, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Great, add the Annie LeBrun passage, I like her. Also, please add anything on Conroy Maddox, he was a true surrealist. Where is the NYRB letter from the Chicago Surrealist Group, I want to read it too!!!User:24.168.66.27 22:07, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::I corresponded with Maddox, in case that poisons him ''as a surrealist'' in your book. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 17:05, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) Hey Dan, you also exhibited in a show that Terrance Lindall curated, "Apocalypse 1999" at the WAH center! Your name is on the website page! ITS LIKE WE ARE ONE BIG HAPPY SURREALIST FAMILY!!! :I'm still not finding anything but self promotion here. User:Stirling Newberry 17:39, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) Its not self-promotion, its fact. As for you completely taking over the article, I completely disagree with ALL your edits and I retract my previous reproach with you since you do not edit the surrealism article in good faith. The article was much better when Boyer was editing it, even though I vehementely disagree with Dan and do not like him, I respect his edits! Dan did not take over the article like you did! You are treating this article like it is your own playground for promoting your opinions on Surrealism. When you see that it is a fact that surrealism is not an art movement and you flood the article with art information and then you are challenged on it, you call it vandalism, that is not good faith. I disagree with Dan and I have much hatred for his version of surrealism, but he has the right to edit as do I and its not self-promotion.User:24.168.66.27 18:14, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) P.S. Wigdor gets mentioned if you mention Rosemont and the other groups!!! Surrealism is not a closed movement made up of scattered groups, its an open movement for many artists and poets and writers that participate in Surrealism, like Wigdor did with SURREALISM 2003, the online event and like Lindall did with BRAVE DESTINY!!! Fair is Fair and Surrealism can only transform life if it involves all, including Stirling Newberry.User:24.168.66.27 17:29, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) : Self-promotion=not notable. Wiki isn't a web guide, and it isn't a free site for distributing press releases. So far the documentation that anyone cares about these people other than themselves has been zero. ::I'm not sure which people you mean here. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:18, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Please reread wiki-standards on NPOV, notability, not promoting a personal website, citation of sources, wikiquette. User:Stirling Newberry 17:51, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Much needed revisions on this article. Surrealism is not an art movement== I decided to agree with Boyer on this very important fact: SURREALISM IS NOT AN ART MOVEMENT! All misleading and unsubstantiated claims cannot stay in the article, like all the overwhelming art information that Stirling has flooded the article with, I have to agree with Boyer on this fact. Surrealism does not leave its cultural legacy to someone who edits this article as a preface to an art catalogue.User:24.168.66.27 17:57, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Why no passage on Louis Aragon?== This is an outrage! Aragon's contributions to surrealism in its development are historic.User:24.168.66.27 18:21, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) :I agree he should be mentioned. Be bold and do it yourself! --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:14, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Oh Dan! I have to do everything myself!User:24.168.66.27 02:28, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Four Reverts by Stirling today, count them== Four in one day! He has literally taken over this article. Its ruined!User:24.168.66.27 18:24, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==In case you did not see what happened== Stirling is now accusing me and Daniel C.Boyer of violating Wiki rules today and he has reverted the page five times today. I gave my last revert today (the third and last in accordance with Wikipolicy) and Dan only gave one revert, if I am correct. I did not violate any rules today and neither did Dan. Then Stirling makes a statement that we did violate rules but has no evidence. Now he wants us blocked just because we disagree with him. Hey, I disagree with Dan practically 99% of the time, but I reach agreement with him. Stirling, it appears wants to control this article, am I wrong?User:24.168.66.27 19:03, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) :I am requesting that you both be blocked, and procedings to permanently ban you both as being unable to follow even a modicum of wiki rules, as well as obvious attempts to game the system. You and Boyer are both POV trolls and problem users, and my patience is at an end with both of you. User:Stirling Newberry 19:11, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::You are a POV troll who is "unable to follow even a modicum of wiki rules". If you will read this talk page and the archived talk pages you will see that there have been a number of times I have agreed with you, I was willing to work with you on the post-World War II section, but you have persisted in reverting (including valuable information you've not disputed the value of) and stonewalling. And what do you mean, "obvious attempts to game the system"? --User:Daniel C. Boyer 19:17, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::I have to agree with Dan, after all, he is showing good faith. Stirling, please do not engage in a, "witch trial" here against Boyer and myself. We disagree with each other and we disagree with you, but after all that is said and done, an article is there with information that is accurate. Surrealism is about total revolution and that is not my point of view or opinion. You learn a lot about someone who edits, by what they spend their time on in here and how they edit. Dan does not like me and I do not like Dan, we both know that and that is old news, BUT we do LOVE SURREALISM and it appears Dan is very passionate about what he does and what he edits, that I respect (though I loathe him and his friends, I respect the DESIRE they have to live surrealism). Stirling, its not just art. Its not just randomly documenting material that satisfies your tastes, which appears to be classical music and the lot. That's cool, that is what you are into. However, we, Dan and I and others, have been editing on here a while and we are editing this article because we are very passionate about surrealism. You need to accept that and try to work with Boyer, especially. I still hate Dan, but I will allow his friends work to be documented in the article, I wish he would do the same for me, but that I can live with. Even if Dan, changes my edits, I still respect his DESIRE to do so, Stirling, can you?User:24.168.66.27 02:39, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Both Andre Breton and even Mr.Rosemont have....== Both Andre Breton and even Mr.Rosemont have acknowledged the IMMENSE influence of F.W.H Meyers on Surrealism and that should be documented. I added Clark Ashton Smith into the surrealist influences paragraph. Clark Ashton Smith is documented in the Rosemont edited book, and that is important. "The Abominations of Yondo" really is a strong surrealist source of inspiration and I thank Mr.Rosemont for documenting him in his book.User:24.168.66.27 17:03, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Stirling removed Toyen from the article from the addition that I made== Why, Stirling, Why? Why, would you remove Toyen from an encyclopedia article on Surrealism? Why? Why, would you remove any references of influence on Clark Ashton Smith? Why, today, do you state that you are reverting to the last revision made by Boyer, when you just stated yesterday that you would have both of us banned? Stirling, I did not remove all your art edits. I removed some paragraphs that are so laden with art-critiques and your opinion that it is not fair to the article's presentation of facts. This is not an art catalogue where you describe color palettes and the lot. I did condense the art-related material, and I left many of your additions in. After all, you did a complete makeover of the article. Anytime, someone changes your edits, you allege vandalism and threaten to have us banned. Sir, please be fair and try to work with us and allow us to make revisions. You completely removed ALL of my edits. When you removed TOYEN, from the article, proves to me that you are not editing this article in good faith. Dan, what is your feedback on Stirling's decision to remove Toyen? I completely disagree with this man. Toyen is a VITAL contributor to surrealism and a very important part of the history of surrealism and the surrealist movement.User:24.168.66.27 18:37, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) :I think the removal of Toyen is quite unreasonable given her significance. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 20:09, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) :I agree with Dan 100% on Toyen. Stirling, you have to be fair here.User:24.168.66.27 20:50, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) Stop lying - you submitted a batch of edits and are now trying to claim you made one. The diff shows that you made a series of edits, not all of which are reasonable. Presented with an up or down vote on them, I reverted them back. User:Stirling Newberry :But you weren't "presented with an up or down vote on them". There is nothing to prevent you (apart from time, or your inclination as to how much you'd like to spend on this, but that's really nobody's business but yours) from editing the article line by line or even word by word. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 20:09, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) Show me, Specifically, where in my statement above, that I made, "one" edit. I never stated I made, "one" edit. I revised the article(one revision today and the second was adding the disputed template, please do not remove that,sir), by condensing the art-related passages by removing your POV's and I also removed two paragraphs that are laden with inaccurate information and speculation, thus again, your opinions and tastes dominating the article and its presentation. I did leave many of your additions in and you removed ALL of my additions without any explanation. Sir, please work WITH us for a better article.User:24.168.66.27 20:01, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Again, Stirling removes TOYEN!== It appears that Stirling feels so strongly about NOT allowing a very significant surrealist, Toyen, to be included in the article, (along with Jindrich Styrsky and Oscar Dominguez as well!). :For him to remove mention of all ''three'' of these people, without giving a reason, is of highly debatable value, to put the best possible spin on it. And it could certainly be argued that in doing so he is guilty of the same behaviour he complains of from me in RfC, as he is removing, without saying why, colourably important and certainly documentable information. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 14:43, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC) Stirling also feels so strongly about the art historian Sarane Alexandrian, that he FORGOT that he SPELLED his name wrong!User:24.168.66.27 21:11, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Dan, please read== Stirling is trying to start a campaign to really get us banned. I went to his user page and then went to the RfC page and when you scroll down towards the end of the RfC page, towards, Candidates..., you will see what Stirling is writing about us. Here take a look from, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment Candidate pages - still need to meet the two person threshold List newer entries on top /User:24.168.66.27 Allegations: personal attacks, excessive POV pushing. See Talk:Surrealism. /User:Daniel C. Boyer Allegations: personal attacks, attempts to use Wiki to promote websites, inserts attacks in articles. See Talk:Surrealism and edit history of Mary Ann Caws In the meantime, I kindly ask of Stirling to PLEASE work with Dan and myself, before you proceed on this campaign to ban us, its just not fair and is very mean-spirited. I had many disagreements with Dan for a very long time, but I never went to this extreme. He has the right to edit as do I.User:24.168.66.27 21:30, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::For the record, I have NEVER seen Daniel C.Boyer insert an attack in the article. Stirling, that is not true and that statement is intentionally misleading. I am worried about this.User:24.168.66.27 21:36, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Adriano Monteiro????== Who is Adriano Monteiro???? and why are they (user 200.) inserting this artist in a, "neo-surrealism" and ero-whatever category in the introduction to this article? Then what kills me, is that Stirling leaves this in, he does not remove it or replace it, somewhere or anywhere else, and yesterday he removes three very important surrealists (documented in the history of the surrealist movement, no less), TOYEN, DOMINGUEZ, and STYRSKY and leaves this in!!! Dan, have you or your comrades ever heard of Andriano Monteiro?????User:24.168.66.27 03:54, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC) Stirling has removed Adriano Monteiro! Elvis has just left the building!!!!User:24.168.66.27 04:25, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC) == Untranslated French == Why is there untranslated French at the top of the article? If this quote is to be used at all, it should inserted after an initial summary of what Surrealism is (if anyone can agree on this point) and should definitely include an English translation and explanation. An article about Surrealism shouldn't be surreal itself. --User:Polynova 08:22, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC) Removed. User:Stirling Newberry 21:34, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC) == Surrealism after Breton == (Proposed) :After Breton's death, Surrealism lost the figure who had been at the center of the movement since its inception. For some, such as Pierre and Chustar, it marked the end of Surrealism as a movement. However, many who had known Breton, continued to work and exhibit. Toyen, Conroy Maddox, Petr Karl and Annie LeBrun to name four figures in particular. Several artists who had broken with Breton, but continued to work in Surrealist modes also were active after Breton's Death. ::I agree with the above paragraph by Stirling. Only point of observation is there is various spellings of Jean Schuster's last name in some reference material, so I propose to spell it Schuster, but I can also accept the above as well. I also recommend that you mention the two members of the GPMS who claim that the Paris Surrealist Group DID continue after Jean Schuster officially disbanded the group and that they really never did officially disband and continued their work up to today. I can give this offer in good faith to Marie Dominque Massoni, who I respect, though I can't stand some of her friends and their rants.User:24.168.66.27 02:47, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC) :One of the most notable groups was the Czeck Surrealist Group. Surrealist activity in Prague had risen and fallen with political fortunes: the Nazi occupation drove it underground, and many of its members fled to Paris in the 1950's. However, it was not until 1968 that the group was completely surprised as part of the Soviet crushing of the Prague Spring. With the Velvet Revolution, the group reappeared, began publishing its journal again, and its members began exhibiting their works both in the Czech Republic and abroad, most notably in concert with the Surrealist movement in the United Kingdom. ::I agree with the above proposed paragraph by Stirling. Don't forget to mention(Czeck surrealist) the filmmaker Jan Svankmeyer (I hope I spelled his last name correct). Also mention Teige somewhere in the article, leading in to this paragraph.User:24.168.66.27 02:47, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC) :Beyond these circles however, a number of groups came into being who, while not directly connected to Breton, assumed the mantle of Surrealism. One such group, the Arsenal Group in Chicago attracted controversy for their uncompromising stance, and attacks on the state of scholarship as it had then existed. Two members of this group Franklin Rosemont and Penelope Rosemont published works on Surrealism. ::I will give in to Boyer after all this time. I will accept the Rosemonts as the authentic Bonnie and Clydes of Surrealism and say yes to them being in the article. However, I have conditions: YOU MUST MENTION THE WEST COAST SURREALIST GROUP, as well! Also, its really The Chicago Surrealist Group, but if you want to call Boyer's friends the, "Arsenal Group" go ahead. Also, I must stress that you word the last sentence as follows, "Two members of this group Franklin Rosemont and Penelope Rosemont published works on Surrealism through their own publishing company Black Swann." At least the scholars and researchers will know WHO really published(Pathfinder Press) Franklin's work. Penelope's book, "Surrealist Women" was published by University of Texas, if I am correct, but that is really not important.User:24.168.66.27 02:47, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC) :Surrealism also exhibited a pull on the public imagination in a way which many of the movements of Modernism had not: known to the public in a general sense, the word "surreal" having entered English. Numerous artists and writers have adopted the label as a way of describing their work to the public, and in the absence of a general consensus or scholarship, there does not exist any clear agreement as to whether these works are seen as expressions of Surrealism, or as a revival or movement inspired by Surrealism. Some scholars of Surrealism take a very broad view, namely anything which advances revolutionary surrealism is to be welcomed, in the spirit of the idea that Surrealism is thought without any aesthetic preoccupation. On the other hand, there have been denunciations of such activities as attempts to commercially appropriate the name because of its public cachet. ::The above paragraph proposed by Stirling, I have issues with, but I can work something out with him and Dan.User:24.168.66.27 02:47, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC) :Another movement strongly associated with Surrealism are the Situationalism , which grew up in Paris starting in the 1950's. ::Not really. Guy Debord was a genius, but his motives were never based in surrealism. Maybe Boyer can agree with me on that observation, but it was influenced by surrealism, how to decide on what level is difficult but possible.User:24.168.66.27 02:47, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC) :Scholarship about Surrealism has grown considerably, with works on both the aesthetic and philosophical movement and the artistic movement, continuing to appear. ::Now, I only have one catch. Let me make this clear that what I am about to write IS NOT Self-promotion!!! I propose that you, Stirling, write a passage on Contemporary Surrealism and mention (or refer to) the SERIOUS DEBATE that exists between the Self-Identified Surrealist Groups (basically ALL of Boyer's friends and fellow travellers, including Dan) and the Self-Identified Surrealist, Keith Wigdor, who challenged the movement(Dan's friends) in his Surrealism in 2004. Dan and his friends claim Keith is the enemy of surrealism, Keith claims that they do not fulfill surrealism's main goal which is the transformation of life by allowing ALL the public to join the movement and engage desire with collective force. I will even consider a proposed passage by Boyer, himself, but it is about time that the world, scholars, public and researchers KNOW the verisimilitude of Surrealism TODAY!User:24.168.66.27 02:47, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC) User:Stirling Newberry 21:34, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC) == Other Surrealism articles== *Added stub on Toyen. Added to cat surrealism *Added Penelope Rosemont to Category:Surrealism. *Added Mary Ann Caws to Category Surrealism *Added Arsenal Group Article, added to cat Surrealism *Added Benjamin Peret article, added to cat Surrealism User:Stirling Newberry 21:46, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC) ==Stirling, would you please stop referring to my edits as...== Stirling, would you please stop referring to my edits as vandalism! I am trying to work with you and Dan! In the meantime, read my responses above.User:24.168.66.27 02:50, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC) :After putting up with your lies and attacks, I am simply going to ignore you. The toyen scream job was simply the last straw, and from here on in, if you can't learn to write POV, I will simply revert what you write without checking it closely, the signal to noise ratio coming from your user name is simply too low to be worth anyone's time and effort. After screaming bloody murder about how important Toyen is - neither you, nor Daniel, could be bothered to actually create the article. User:Stirling Newberry 03:13, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC) ::Stirling wants the article all to himself.User:24.168.66.27 05:56, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC) ::To say that you have "put up with" his "lies and attacks" is somewhat questionable, given that you've made them the subject of RfC. And you are now admitting ("I will simply revert what you write without checking it closely") that you are not going to edit in good faith any more. I would ask you to reconsider this, because it is colorably grounds for being listed on RfC. --User:Daniel C. Boyer 21:35, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC) ==An observation on the article as it is now== The Surrealism article is slowly shaping up. Today, I added some relatively minor additions, which did not get immediately removed from the article, and that shows me, that there exists an element of desire to improve the article by working together. I never would think in a million years that I would ever agree with Daniel C.Boyer on anything, but lately, I must state that both HE and Stirling are presenting edits that appear to be helpful to the article. ::We all can make this the BEST referenc