Stevertigo - meaning of word Note: I may choose to reply here instead of your talk
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Stevertigo



:: Note: I may choose to reply here instead of your talk-SV Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 1 Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 2 Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 3 Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 4 Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 5 Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 6 Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 7 Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 8 Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 9 Talk:User:Stevertigo Archive 10 ---- __TOC__ ==Article: The New Crusade:America's War on Terrorism== I want to consult with you about the inclusion of external links to Amazon. I came across them in this article you created. I can see how some might see this as commercial and was curious what your thoughts are on external links to stores.User:Tobycat 01:46, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) Thanks for your thoughts about it - and appreciate the info. Good to know about the ISBN policy/procedure. When I mentioned ''commercial'' I guess I was referring more to the Amazon link than the article itself. I'm generally inclusionist and like the notion of information about books being in the Wikipedia. I suppose I am a little uneasy about an article linking to a point of purchase. Has there been much discussion among Wikipedians about that? I tried to find something about it and had trouble locating anything.User:Tobycat 22:15, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) == TFD on Template:News-trade == Do not remove the TFD header from a template which is being considered for deletion until a decision has been made on that template through the WP:TFD page. Doing so is a form of vandalism. User:Kelly Martin 01:07, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC) == Template:Numbers == I have added a comment on the talk page of this template, since the heading "complex extensions" occurs twice in the body of the template. Kind regards, --User:83.88.250.55 11:00, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) == New anti-Semitism == What recommendations would you make for the lead? --User:Viriditas | User_talk:Viriditas 21:02, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::Some people may see it as "controversial" (just as some people see birth control as controversial) but I'm not sure that term is essential here. Should we modify the lead in the condom article to state, "the use of condoms is controversial". No, of course not. That lead describes what it is and how it is used. In this case, the term describes an objective phenomenon that has been documented as a resurgence and acceptability of anti-semitism. The term does not assert that "most or all political opposition toward Israel's occupation of the Palestine territories is based on an irrational hatred toward Jews", nor is that definition supported. But, the article itself certainly has POV bias (added by some editors) which we are in the middle of trying to remove and would greatly appreciate your help. --User:Viriditas | User_talk:Viriditas 21:29, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::I cited the source on the talk page, and the book is found in the "further reading section". This is a partial definition, however, and could certainly be expanded to futher differentiate the new from the old anti-semitism, but the article attempts to do that in the body. --User:Viriditas | User_talk:Viriditas 21:33, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::::We are in agreement on the POV sources included in the current article, and these issues are being addressed somewhat slowly. Like you, I prefer to attribute neutral sources whenever possible, and if not, attribute claimants and their positions. Any help you can offer with the content is appreciated, and I am working on clarifying the definition in the lead which I base partly on Taguieff's concept of the ""the new judeophobia" that was translated from the French as the "new anti-semitism". --User:Viriditas | User_talk:Viriditas 00:45, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::::Firstly, my lead is not based primary on Targuieff, but attemps to describe the new anti-Semitism as documented in his 2002 book, which your google source does not discuss. If I may ask, who or what is your source for the critique of Targuieff, and how is it relevant to a definition of new anti-semitism? Granted, it's highly relevant if Targuieff is defining a term used in relation to something else, like Israel or Palestine, but the topic is fairly clear. Again, my lead is not based soley on Targuieff but describes the concept of the new anti-semitism in relation to the definition covered in the article. Now, if I expand the lead to cover Targuieff's definition, a cited critique of Targuieff might be necessary in the criticism section. As it stands, your google source doesn't seem to be authoritative in any way, nor is it relevant to the article. Further, the anonymous criticism which claims that Targuieff "...gives an opinion in favour of the Israelis in the territorial war which opposes them to the Palestinians," is the opinion of that anonymous source. And the claim that he "...seems to confuse anti-sionnisme and judéophobie", is erroneous as he makes the distinction clear in his 2002 book. Again, can you cite the source for this criticism? --User:Viriditas | User_talk:Viriditas 01:04, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::::::You seem to have avoided my question about the source, and instead argue that because Targuieff doesn't have an article, it isn't worthy of inclusion. I haven't complained about anything, but I have asked you about the source for the criticism, so I find your reply strange. --User:Viriditas | User_talk:Viriditas 01:11, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) This is just a note to let you know that I've read your insightful criticism on the talk page and I've moved it to its own section (since you aren't Jmabel). I should have a reply posted by tonight (I'm on HST). --User:Viriditas | User_talk:Viriditas 01:44, 1 May 2005 (UTC) == Why == *boggle* Why are you reverting my edits? – User:ClockworkSoulUser talk:ClockworkSoul 13:47, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Why are you creating articles like Porter's constant, which are Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion as they only contain an external link? User:Ahoerstemeier 16:25, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Why are all those one link articles now protected? I have the same questions about Langyel's constant.User:NatusRoma 06:02, 1 May 2005 (UTC) == Template:Tfd changes == Out of curiosity, what template are you having trouble fitting it in? I can't say I've seen that problem before. User:JYolkowski // User talk:JYolkowski 02:17, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) == /JNT Page == Just wanted to let you know that you created the /JNT page as a regular article, rather than as a sub-page as it seems you intended. You might want to move it to the correct spot before some deletionist spots it. ;-) User:JimCollaborator User_talk:JimCollaborator 00:55, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC) == title vote on Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda == FYI: there is another title vote at the bottom on Talk:Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda User:Zen-master User talk:Zen-master 01:54, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Your vote on CfD re: :Category:Iraq War and :Category:2003 Iraq conflict == Can you please go back and make your vote for ''which'' category to keep crystal clear. Maybe I'm misreading your comment, but it seems like you're in favor of keeping one of the two. In order to prevent the chance of any confusion, could you add a wiki link in your vote to the category that you wish to keep? Doing so will make tabulating votes easy and unambiguous. If I'm incorrect, and you ''do'' want to keep both, can you make that clearer in your CfD comment? User:Feco 01:55, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) == cfd-howto == Hi - I'm curious what the rationale is for removing the howto section from WP:CFD into a template. Can you please explain? Thanks. -- User:Rick Block 04:48, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Will changes to the template show up as changes for folks who watch WP:CFD? If not, seems like it might mask changes (and I'm not suggesting this is your motivation). Even if it causes no harm, I don't understand the reason to do it (surely you're not so bored that you make random changes simply because they cause no harm :) ). BTW - you can respond here if you'd like. -- User:Rick Block 00:06, 1 May 2005 (UTC) == Iraq war == Please don't make such major changes to 2003 Invasion of Iraq without discussion. Your move was very much POV and should not have been done. User:Violetriga User_talk:violetriga 11:12, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Jesus == Of course I have no problem with you mediating. I don't think, though, that it is a matter of sources (but maybe I am wrong). In the specific instance I am calling attention to, I am most of all irritated by Rev of Bru's personal conduct, not explaining himself, ignoring my explanation, and then declaring that he has explained himself (just please, tell me where on the talk page you se an explanation) and that I have not explained myself! As to the substance of the edit in question I just do not know what his objections are. I think it is a matter of style and readability, he claims I am POV warring. I do not think I am POV warring, I think it is a matter of good style. So there are various elements to this problem. Please go over my account on the RfM page and then let me know if I am being unclear about something, thanks, User:Slrubenstein | User talk:Slrubenstein 23:21, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Thanks. I guess I should ammend my comment about sources. It is ''possible'' that ''RoB'' thinks this is a matter of sources (in which case I hoped our discussion on the talk page in the "historicity section" would have settled them, don't know why it didn't). User:Slrubenstein | User talk:Slrubenstein 23:37, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) For what it's worth, I much appreciate the balance the Jesus page finally appears to be achieving. I don't agree with all of it, but that's because I have my own POV, but it is fairly well established as NPOV at this point, and I rather also appreciate the thing being locked down --User:Eleuthero 05:20, 3 May 2005 (UTC) ==Guru== While you were posting a note that you've volunteered to act as mediator for the Guru article, I was posting a note, that eventually ended up on Wikipedia:Requests for page protection, to protect the article. A glance at the history log and the talk page should make the need clear. I can't recommend any particualr version to protect as I haven't been following the actual contents of the edits. Thanks for taking the role of mediator. Cheers, -User:Willmcw 23:23, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC) Thanks, Steve. Something is wrong with the format of the page. I think those two templates together are messing up the page format... --User:Zappaz 00:53, 1 May 2005 (UTC) :Steven, I have a problem with the ''factual'' accuracy warning because both Zappaz and Goethean cannot point to a certain fact that they think is wrong. They only think that the information is selective but that is not enough reason to give it a factual accuracy warning in my view. User:Andries 08:11, 1 May 2005 (UTC) :Steve, thank for your effort in meditating this article. Zappaz, keeps removing contents from the talk page that he considers libellous but I consider it important to understand the controversy regarding this article. Hence I copied it to my user page. User:Andries/guru#Why_gurus_are_controversial_in_the_West User:Andries 18:27, 1 May 2005 (UTC) FYI, the Guru article has the template, but the page is not really protected. Is this intentional? User:Jossifresco 16:32, May 5, 2005 (UTC) == time to mediate == Rev of Bru responded to your invitation for comments on the RfM page, and I have responded to RoB's comments. In the meantime, he is back at it -- accusing me of POV warrioring on the Jesus talk page, and reverting JimWae's compromise. User:Slrubenstein | User talk:Slrubenstein 19:57, 1 May 2005 (UTC) == Template talk:In the news == It's always nice to have something archived and cleaned up, but could you please not deleting the header information in the process the next time? User:MacGyverMagic|User talk:MacGyverMagic 09:18, May 2, 2005 (UTC) == USA PATRIOT Act == Was there a particular reason for your moving USA PATRIOT Act from the correct short form of its name? 22:34, May 2, 2005 (UTC) :''What do you claim to mean by "proper?"'' From the article: ''Its given name is USA PATRIOT Act, which is a backronym for Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001''. The short version of the name is given in the Congressional Act. Calling it the USA PATRIOT Act is not simply a whim of some Wikipedian subject to arbitrary guidelines about country-specific usage. 00:24, May 3, 2005 (UTC) ::It is named what it is, and last time I checked, that was how it was most commonly referred to. It is a piece of crap legislation as far as I am concerned, but it also betrays POV and bias to call it something other than it's proper name or what it is most commonly known as. I did not move it back, so I don't feel any special obligation to check for broken redirects. 00:55, May 3, 2005 (UTC) == Real == Please note that User:Redux reverted your changes to real, and mine too. I had this issue with this editor before, and I like more the order you put. Looking at the talk page of that article, it seems that it is Redux always defending the article the way it is, against others. Shall we join forces together and have Redux accept the more "real"istic order, as you wrote it, or shall we just give up on this and let Redux have his way? You can reply here, I will keep this page on my watchlist. User:Oleg Alexandrov :Thanks Oleg. Ive made some changes again, doing it more correctly this time. It may be that the disambiguation concept needs some reworking in general. Regards,-User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 22:08, 4 May 2005 (UTC) == IBDTSFY == What does IBDTSFY mean? User:Adam Bishop 06:46, 5 May 2005 (UTC) :Alright...but did you just make that up? It wasn't on Internet slang yesterday, nor anywhere else on the Internet. User:Adam Bishop 15:43, 5 May 2005 (UTC) == guru == I thought that the guru article was protected during mediation. Why is Andries still able to edit the article? He continues to plan changes to the article to bring it more in line with the POV that he advocates. I cannot spend 12 hours per day on the guru article, which is what would be necessary to counter his advocacy. --User:Goethean 16:35, 5 May 2005 (UTC) : I have done as much as I could to make him understand the difficulties he has with his position and his inability accept other editor's points of view. Good luck with the article. --User:38.119.107.72 19:09, 5 May 2005 (UTC) :I do understand your point of view but I think it is unacceptable that good content (though somewhat critical) should be removed only to restore balance. Instead I think that more positive views can be added. May be I can write them myself because I know a lot about the subject both from a Hindu perspective and from a skeptical perspective. It is just that I forget citations that do not ring as true to me and hence it is difficult for me to write positive things in the article because everything has to be referenced otherwise it is deleted. User:Andries 19:20, 5 May 2005 (UTC) ::I have already explained to you in Talk:Guru why your idea of "balance" and "adding favorable" material is unattainable given your position. You may want to continue the discussion there, rather than expand here, although I will not participate any longer as I have done all what I could to assist. --User:38.119.107.72 19:42, 5 May 2005 (UTC) :::.72 well it is true that we have not come a millimeter closer in spite of extensive discussions. User:Andries 19:52, 5 May 2005 (UTC) :::::How many editors it will take to make you see your shortcomings regarding this article? Five? Seven? Ten? Fifteen? The problem is compounded: Your reticence to budge even a few degrees, and the fact that there are no so many editors out there interested, if one is to judge by the lack of response to your previous RfC. Without prejudice, I would invite you to read Wikipedia:What is a troll and specifically the section Wikipedia:Troll#Creative_trolling. Consider this option from the same article: ::::::''Concede. Sometimes, no matter how right you're sure you are, the consensus is going to go against you. When this happens, let it go. Maybe someday someone else will come along and raise the same issue, and the discussion can begin anew, and this time turn out differently.'' :::::Not that I am acussing you of being a troll. Just to point out that stubborness is one of their idiosyncrasies. Sometimes it is better to let it go for a while. Good luck.--User:38.119.107.72 03:44, 6 May 2005 (UTC) :::::::This unsigned ad hominem against Andries doesnt impress me. -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 01:22, 7 May 2005 (UTC) ::::::::Then I suggest that you familiarize yourself with Andries' contributions. --User:Goethean 16:39, 8 May 2005 (UTC) :::::::::The subject of guru is controversial, diverse, and complicated and invites to subjective viewpoints. Due to my own background I'm interested in certain aspects of gurus and read about those aspects. I cannot write about aspects that I have not read about. So please try to make good additions to the article that highlight other aspects. User:Andries 11:17, 11 May 2005 (UTC) ::::::::::revert war (now between Goethean and Andries) has started. User:Andries 17:32, 12 May 2005 (UTC) You may be interested to know that I moved the request for comments on guru to the archive page some time ago. Matters have cooled down. User:Andries 09:59, 22 May 2005 (UTC) == Wikipedia:Wikiproject Inclusion == Wikipedia:Wikiproject Inclusion sounds intriguing, but it could use a better mission statement. I read it and I am still not sure what the purpose of this project is... --User:Piotrus User_talk:Piotrus 13:33, 9 May 2005 (UTC) == TfD nomination of Template:Google == Template:Google has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Google. Thank you. — User:Xiong熊">Special:Emailuser/XiongUser talk:Xiong*">User:Xiong/Metatalk 21:31, 2005 May 10 (UTC) == Edit summaries == Hi Stevertigo. If I think of it, my request was indeed not well-placed, and your reaction was to be expected. So, please accept my appologies. About the edit summaries themselves, I think their point is at least partially to give an idea about what an editor changed when somebody else is examining a list of changes (like watchlist, or the recent changes). Sometimes it saves the time of looking at a diff, and putting edit summary seems to be good (and required) practice. But, it seems you have been here for much longer than me, so I won't bug you more about that. :) User:Oleg Alexandrov 01:05, 11 May 2005 (UTC) :Edits without summaries are not "self-explanatory" in Watchlists, no matter what your intent. -- User:Netoholic User talk:Netoholic 05:58, 2005 May 11 (UTC) ::Fair point - 'Edit summaries are nice for watchlists.' But what does this mean - That uncommented edits carry an assumption of less validity relative to commented ones? That 'it would make my job of policing certain articles easier if you left a comment'? Maybe what you ''mean'' to say Net is 'regarding articles x and x, I noticed that your edits did not include summaries. Please consider adding a small comment for similar edits, for reasons x and x. Thank you.' Doesnt that sound nicer? -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 08:11, 11 May 2005 (UTC) ::: Wikipedia's guideline on the Wikipedia:edit summary is "Always fill the summary field.". I think, by looking at the pattern of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&hideminor=0&namespace=&target=Stevertigo&limit=250&offset=0 your edits], especially with regard to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&hideminor=0&namespace=0&target=Stevertigo&limit=100&offset=0 articles], you tend to make very large number of minor, incremental changes to pages. I can see where, using that method, edit summaries may become tedious for you to use. I would suggest using a User:Stevertigo/Sandbox approach to your editing, making all necessary changes in one major edit, and get back in the habit of always using edit summaries. Though even I admit noone's perfect, you seem to be falling quite behind. Edit summaries are ''critical'' on all main page edits, though I doubt anyone would be bugging you if you only forgot them on discussion pages. -- User:Netoholic User talk:Netoholic 14:47, 2005 May 11 (UTC) :::: Netoholic is right. The edit summary is an integral part of an edit. Be aware that any and every edit you make to any page whatever may eventually be used as evidence against you; and community norms place great reliance on edit summaries: for evidence of good faith, for evidence of specific intent, and as a tool for use in locating specific versions and diffs. Note however that \"see talk\" is an acceptable edit summary ''if'' you comment on talk simultaneously with the edit. :::: Netoholic is right again when he suggests Sandbox-mode editing (in some cases). Because each edit generates a diff in the edit history, large numbers of small, related edits are discouraged. Better to pull the entire page into a private user sandbox ("User:Stevertigo/Sandbox"), edit at will, and when done, pull the markup out and make one big edit to the actual article. ''On the other hand'', if you make edits ''unrelated in kind'', it may be better to make them individually, with appropriate edit summaries for each one. — User:Xiong熊">Special:Emailuser/XiongUser talk:Xiong*">User:Xiong/Metatalk 02:20, 2005 May 13 (UTC) == Template:VFD == This may sound impertinent, as I am relatively new to Wikipedia. However, I ask you to withdraw your nomination of Template:VFD on WP:TFD. I think most users, including me, feel this to be a bad-faith nomination. One, it appears you don't want this template deleted: if so, you should not nominate it for deletion. Two, if it were deleted, WP:VFD would not be able to function (assuming you actually mean to delete Template:VfD and not the redirect Template:VFD). You can't just delete a template that's being used as part of Wikipedia procedures. The proper place to propose changes would be on the template's talk page and Wikipedia talk:Votes for deletion. Broader changes in deletion policy should perhaps be brought up on the Village Pump. — User:Knowledge Seeker User talk:Knowledge Seeker 08:23, 11 May 2005 (UTC) :Your comments are welcome, and likewise I dont take anyone's newbieness for impertinence. I dont agree about my listing as being in bad faith, or improper, simply because it interrupts a process - how else is process to be reviewed? For one, VFD pages tend to be the nexus for catalysing policy and process changes - thats the way it always has been, sadly. Which is why some of us back in the day got together to put together the WP:CU idea - as a way to separate process discussions about improvement versus those about deletion, when VFD was overused for any and every gripe including POV stuff. The category feature was added more recently, and helps a lot. People get into the nasty habit of putting things up for deletion in order to draw attn to something they want taken care of - when things change too quickly, its not such a good thing because things get overlooked, and the gears crunch too much. I suppose that is the reason why I added it to TFD - to draw attention to the problem - and so I suppose I agree with you that theres a better place for that discussion. But on the other hand, the kind of direct confrontation that comes about by feeding a destruction process a part of itself has some benefits - immediacy for one. This isnt an unreasonable thing to do given that TFD isnt all that active yet. -08:42, 11 May 2005 (UTC) -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 10:28, 11 May 2005 (UTC) ::Thanks for your reply. I still feel the better way to review the process would be to bring it up on the relevant talk pages or on the Village Pump. But I understand your reasoning. In any case, I hope VfD will continue to improve. — User:Knowledge Seeker User talk:Knowledge Seeker 22:44, 11 May 2005 (UTC) == {tfd} == You show good spirit with your edit of the tag itself. I tried that once, too. I expect your change will be swiftly reverted. I suppose you and I could team up and revert all reverts, but we might be outnumbered. You have the right general idea, but I suggest Template:Tfd's content is not the place to fight the battle against rabid deletionism. Start by quietly moving {tfd} tags from template bodies to their corresponding talk pages. Don't get into revert wars, just move the tags when you see they're destructive. Another approach is to start using {{template:tfdnotice}} (see documentation). Place ''that'' tag on the talk pages of users -- such as template creators and editors -- who might actually give a damn about templates being deleted out of hand. The sad thing about {tfd} is that, on the one hand, it deprecates the nominated template at once, and in some cases actually destroys its usefulness; on the other hand, it fails in the mission so strongly upheld by its defenders: to notify interested parties. Of course, deletionists would ''prefer'' interested parties stay ignorant long enough for the nominated template to wind up in the Bit Bucket -- which may be as few as 3 days after nomination. As time passes, more outraged template creators will come to the table, and some will remain to oppose the deletionists -- just about anybody who comes first to TfD to defend his own creation will become biased against extreme deletionism -- and a more moderate climate will eventually prevail. Work with me. — User:Xiong熊">Special:Emailuser/XiongUser talk:Xiong*">User:Xiong/Metatalk 09:53, 2005 May 11 (UTC) :Thanks for your comments, and yes I will work with you on this to convince people to make some changes. I dont think its "rabid deletionism" per se - just the trappings of process causing reactionism on the part of its beurocrats. There is certainly a need for deletionists, but the real issue here is the misuse of a template to prejudice a particular outcome in favor of the process. Processes should be neutral, and tendencies for institutionalizing processes need to be countered - the process of deletion itself only exists because there is a percieved and understood need for it to exist - not because it has to exist for its own sake. OASN, perhaps we need to define m:exclusionism as a separate entity. Wikipedia:WikiProject Inclusion should get some attention too. GN -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 10:28, 11 May 2005 (UTC) ==Template:TFD== *I was wondering what the reason is behind your new layouts of Template:TFD. Why shouldn't it explain that voting takes place at TFD, and invite people to come there and comment? A brighter color, otoh, may be a useful addition imho. User:Radiant!User_talk:Radiant!meta:mergist 10:44, May 11, 2005 (UTC) :Because all of that is irrelevant and self-explanatory. -00:29, 12 May 2005 (UTC) :*That's your POV. But to a new user it would certainly not be. User:Radiant!User_talk:Radiant!meta:mergist 09:07, May 12, 2005 (UTC) ==Antonine Plague== What are the ancient sources for the Antonine Plage? Kazuba 11 May 2005 * I recall adding a link somewhere back in late 2003 - I dont have specific information on it - I was simply compiling a list. WP:BB in researching and adding that material yourself, should you feel like contributing here is worth your time. Sinreg -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 00:35, 12 May 2005 (UTC) == Creationism as a political doctrine == Stevertigo - I am quite disturbed, even frightened, by the recent political sallies to put creationism in schools, but I feel it is offensive and not quite correct to denote creationism as a political doctrine (I just checked that link). I have read that at one point someone proposed to the Indiana legislature to define pi (3.1415926535897932....) as 3.0, and that this measure was referred to the Committee on Swamplands, where it died. If that measure had passed, it would not, in my opinion, make pi=3 a political doctrine; it would remain a mathematical error. The associated political doctrine would be that people (surveyors, machinists, et al) use the value 3. Pi=3 is a (wrong) mathematical statement; the order to use that value is political. :I would judge creationism to be a body of religious or doctrinal assertions. When such assertions, which are inevitably based on authority that cannot be challenged in the minds of the proponents, and so is not science, which can always be challenged, are thrust on teachers, students, TV watchers, innocent bystanders et al, the political and economic processes are used to do that - political via school boards and so on, economic by the selective purchasing of advertising or selective withholding of it, for example. :I would also tend to mention geology as well as life in describing the broad claims of creationists; they attack not only biology, but earth science. You probably know examples - radioactive dating shows ages of billions of years, (see e.g. [http://id-archserve.ucsb.edu/Anth3/Courseware/Chronology/09_Potassium_Argon_Dating.html] [http://www.geology.utoronto.ca/facultydavis.htm] and so on) and this is ignored or warped by creationists. The slowing of the rotation of the Earth is also used, because if you extrapolate backwards you find it was spinning at breakup less than 3 billion years ago; of course, the braking force must have been less long ago due to differences in ocean basins. :Anyway, I would recommend changing "political" to "doctrinal" or the like; also you have, I believe, misspelt "wherein" as "wherin". Good luck and keep up the battle. Sorry I do not know how to make this a separate editable entry so it is under Antonine Plague User:Pdn 02:36, 12 May 2005 (UTC) :: "Politics" simply means 'current legal and cultural discourse regarding social applications' - it shouldnt connote any prejudicial or limiting definition. Pi=3 ''is'' a mathematical error, but this doesnt change the fact that the ''movement'' for asserting it as proper is a political one, regardless if its basis is pure stupidity. Will respond more later, perhaps. Welcome to wikipedia, and good luck. User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 02:41, 12 May 2005 (UTC) == Improper protection == I'm going to Wikipedia:assume good faith that perhaps you aren't aware that you shouldn't use your page protection admin ability to solve your problems with other user's edits or to make sure only you can save them from "hasty deletion". Please go through [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=protect&user=Stevertigo&page=&limit=500&offset=0 everything on this list] that you've protected, which is still protected, and unprotect them if you've been involved at all in editing them. Of course, the ones linked on the Main Page can remain, but you must document them on Wikipedia:Protected page#Visibility reasons. -- User:Netoholic User talk:Netoholic 02:53, 2005 May 12 (UTC) : Please don't make me take this to a wider audience. I'm offering you a chance to cleanup your protection mess. -- User:Netoholic User talk:Netoholic 06:04, 2005 May 12 (UTC) ::How kind of you. Perhaps we got off on a wrong note somewhere, but thats besides the point ATP. If I do indeed have "mess" regarding my use of protection ability — then it should certainly be corrected. How do you suggest I do so other than by community review? -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 06:06, 12 May 2005 (UTC) ::: I explained already... unprotect any of those pages which you've edited. -- User:Netoholic User talk:Netoholic 06:10, 2005 May 12 (UTC) ::::Im sorry - you did say that. Hm. I dont think that really applies to most of those. The math stubs are certainly an exception, but that can be reviewed. All right- you win. RFC me. -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 06:11, 12 May 2005 (UTC) == Wikipedia:POV fork == You may be interested in that article that I created. User:Andries 09:46, 12 May 2005 (UTC) == Templates == Hi there! Nothing personal that I've nominated your smaller templates on TFD, it's just that I believe policy and guidelines should be discussed before being implemented. Yours, User:Radiant!User_talk:Radiant!meta:mergist 19:07, May 12, 2005 (UTC) * Well, no, I don't think TFD is really the place to discuss things. However, the point is that you want things changed; you first tried that by changing the template, which is good (WP:BOLD) - however, it turns out that the majority objects. What you should do, then, is put up a consensual discussion somewhere, not unilaterally declare a new template, which edges towards WP:POINT. User:Radiant!User_talk:Radiant!meta:mergist 19:26, May 12, 2005 (UTC) :: We dont seem to be much in disagreement - but given the pretext assumption that ''only one must exist'' - calling any BB approach POINT is likewise a POV judgement. "Majority objects" would better be said "appears to object". TTYL -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 19:30, 12 May 2005 (UTC) ::*Okay, that's a matter of semantics. Note that I didn't say it ''violates'' WP:POINT, I said it ''edges towards'' WP:POINT. Anyway. I don't really see the TFD business as much of deletionism (that's what VfD is for...) Instead, templates (and categories) are the primary way of ''ordering'' Wikipedia. For information to be most useful, it must be well-presented. And in that, I am very much in favor of consistency, similarity (such as WP:TS), the KISS principle, and opposed to instruction creep. Within that framework I am happy to discuss rewording (or shrinking) templates. And let me ask you this - how can there ever be a conspiracy if every edit is logged and accessible? TINC. Yours, User:Radiant!User_talk:Radiant!meta:mergist 07:52, May 13, 2005 (UTC) ::: No majority ''agrees'' to anything at TfD; the most aggressive, honest estimation might be silent consent. A tiny ''minority'' dictates to the community at large in a field which is bitterly and unpalatably technical. TfD ought to restrict itself to the deletion of ''obviously'' useless or malformed templates, but instead has crept its own scope to include tools useful and in use by others -- to suppress the expression of ideas contrary to the deletionist agenda. Currently, a move is afoot to suppress notification of nomination to "outside" parties -- that is, anyone who might oppose. I fail to discover any legitimacy remaining in the process. — User:Xiong熊">Special:Emailuser/XiongUser talk:Xiong*">User:Xiong/Metatalk 02:09, 2005 May 13 (UTC) :::: I dont think its technical - certainly for most people it is. I agree about the "conspiracy," though its more just the trappings of process and is therefore simply academic from that point of view. Join the light side, Xiong? :Wikipedia:WikiProject Inclusion - well put together a decent alert system - lots of good willed people around - we just need to consolodate these to an agenda to counter the 'munch' process bias. See also Wikipedia:Review -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 02:15, 13 May 2005 (UTC) ::: I've just joined m:Association of Inclusionist Wikipedians; I see we outnumber the deletionists 2 to 1. With that kind of support, I'm suprised at the deletionists' hold on TfD. Maybe it's time to get organized. Who is most active in our association? — User:Xiong熊">Special:Emailuser/XiongUser talk:Xiong*">User:Xiong/Metatalk 02:51, 2005 May 13 (UTC) ::You are! :-) -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 03:34, 13 May 2005 (UTC) ::: Well, that's nice. Back in Chicago, the way we do it is the ward-heelers go around on Election Day with a pickup truck, a baseball bat, and several cases of beer. We may have to employ less direct organizing strategies here. — User:Xiong熊">Special:Emailuser/XiongUser talk:Xiong*">User:Xiong/Metatalk 05:33, 2005 May 13 (UTC) ::::LOL - Slightly less personally kinetic union organizing strategies—but with the same spirit perhaps. -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 07:59, 13 May 2005 (UTC) == See also template == You made the neat ''See also'' template; I want to know if I can apply it to multiple links or if there is another template available for this purpose.  == 19:48, May 12, 2005 (UTC) == Template messages tables == Why have you neutered the Wikipedia:Template messages page by removing all the tables? It used to be somewhat helpful for finding the appropriate tag to use for various things. Now it's almost completely useless (IMO). - User:Dcljr 18:03, 13 May 2005 (UTC) :Yeah, it completely breaks all the subpages - they link back to the main page, but the main page does not link to them! User:Alphax User talk:AlphaxSpecial:Emailuser/AlphaxSpecial:Contributions/Alphax 10:11, 14 May 2005 (UTC) ::I reverted the page to the last working and polished-looking version. See Wikipedia talk:Template messages. Suggestions to improve the page should be made there. User:Wipe 18:33, 14 May 2005 (UTC) I've again reverted your edits. Please have the courtesy to discuss your proposals on the Talk page. User:Mel Etitis (Μελ_Ετητης)">User talk:Mel Etitis 22:42, 14 May 2005 (UTC) :The courtesy to ask who? I understand the issue regarding subpages, though I think they need to be more prominently shown - all i did there was remove the bq tag and wikify the table... silly. -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 23:38, 14 May 2005 (UTC) ::Not the courtesy to ''ask'', the courtesy to ''discuss''. If you look at the Talk page, you'll see the objections to your edits (including the important point that you didn't wikify the table, you unwikified it); if you think that you're still right, explain and argue your case. At the time I left the above comment, at least, you'd never posted to the Talk page, despite having made a series of significant edits. User:Mel Etitis (Μελ_Ετητης)">User talk:Mel Etitis 09:32, 15 May 2005 (UTC) :Stevertigo, I suggest you create subpages of your user page (say, User:Stevertigo/Template messages, User:Stevertigo/Template messages/Article namespace, etc.) and work on your ideas there. Then you can get people's feedback on what you've done without radically changing the workings of the current setup. - User:Dcljr 07:06, 16 May 2005 (UTC) == Re: Depop :Category:Sexual act == I depopulated that template because it was Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/Deleted/May_2005#Template:Sexual_act. Templates must be depopulated before being deleted to prevent a mess of red links. Thanks for your message :) -User:Frazzydee|User talk:Frazzydee 23:16, 13 May 2005 (UTC) ==In the news== You changed "88 members" to "87 members". Here is the list of signatories: [http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/letters/bushletterlistofsigners.pdf (pdf)], and here is the source: [http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/index.html us.house.gov]. User:Kevin_baasUser_talk:Kevin_baas: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kevin_baas&action=edit§ion=new new] 23:29, 2005 May 13 (UTC) :But there are ''89'' "Members who signed the letter". I think Conyers already discounted himself when he said 88. User:Kevin_baasUser_talk:Kevin_baas: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kevin_baas&action=edit§ion=new new] 23:37, 2005 May 13 (UTC) ::And the [http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/letters/bushsecretmemoltr5505.pdf actual letter] contains ''90'' signatures. User:Kevin_baasUser_talk:Kevin_baas: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kevin_baas&action=edit§ion=new new] 23:57, 2005 May 13 (UTC) :::You did not change the "In the news" section to reflect the truth, as I pointed out, and as corroborated by [http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/11/britain.war.memo/ CNN]. I hope that in the future, we can, instead of doing worse than CNN, do better. This is not only my hope, but my endeavor. I hope that others on Wikipedia share this ambition. User:Kevin_baasUser_talk:Kevin_baas: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kevin_baas&action=edit§ion=new new] 05:01, 2005 May 14 (UTC) ::::I'm assuming it's protected. Forgive me if I'm wrong. The entire item is gone. User:Kevin_baasUser_talk:Kevin_baas: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kevin_baas&action=edit§ion=new new] 06:00, 2005 May 14 (UTC) == Review pages == I understand you want to propose some sort of process here, but right now it looks like the concept isn't well put together. * Wikipedia:Review * Wikipedia:Process * Wikipedia:Article review * Wikipedia:Review/Articles * Wikipedia:Review/Categories To save your fellow editors a lot of work, would you delete these pages, and gather your proposal onto one page? These right now have no substance. -- User:Netoholic User talk:Netoholic 06:18, 2005 May 15 (UTC) == Re: titlelacksdiacritics == Please read the reasonably large amount of discussion (all linked from the template's talk page, I think) before thinking of trying to delete it. --User:Joy 08:54, 15 May 2005 (UTC) == procedural advice Q? == Hey, I want to make a major proposal — to replace AD/BC with CE/BCE. I am not asking if you agree (though of course I appreciate your views) but I wonder if you have any idea how I should make this proposal? There has been a long debate on the Jesus page, and my explanation for my proposal is very very long. It affects many pages, not just Jesus. And my proposal is I think too long to put on all the relevant talk pages. Is there any convention? Thanks, User:Slrubenstein | User talk:Slrubenstein 20:55, 15 May 2005 (UTC) "Make a Wikipedia: page with the full text of the proposal. Put a notpolicy tag on it," -- I am not very sophisticated. Can you tell me exactly how to do this. User:Slrubenstein | User talk:Slrubenstein 21:24, 15 May 2005 (UTC) Okay, here is the deal: For several days and hundreds of kilobytes, there as been a debate at Talk:Jesus concerning the use of BC/AD or BCE/CE. Half the debate is already archived. It is a convoluted debate and one reason my proposal is so long is I try to address all the issues that have already been raised on that one page. I won't go into that level of detail here but what you do need to know is that there are many people who object to BCE/CE. At first, they claimed that this was a matter of style and appealed to the Style Manual. I and others, however, think it is a matter of NPOV. The people who object to BCE/CE say it is POV, and that BC/AD is NPOV (want to know their reasons? You will have to do a lot of reading on that talk page!). So far the debate has been centered around that one article, Jesus. However, at the beginning of the debate someone told me that my arguments should not be about this page in particular, but Wikipedia policy in general. (After all, there are many pages with historical material that use AD/BC. I want to propose that ''most'' of these instances should be converted to BCE/CE; I spell out the reasons in my proposal). So there you have it: a controversy that started on the Jesus page but that affects all pages with historical information (i.e. dates), and that some believe has to do with our Style Manual and others with our NPOV policy. User:Slrubenstein | User talk:Slrubenstein 21:47, 15 May 2005 (UTC) == Deleting Template:Delete == Did you really intend to propose Template:Delete for deletion? If so, maybe you should list it on WP:TFD as well. --User:Bjh21 17:23, 17 May 2005 (UTC) And the same for Template:Wrongtitle. I've removed the "tfdss" template for now. User:Mel Etitis (Μελ_Ετητης)">User talk:Mel Etitis 21:10, 17 May 2005 (UTC) ==Template:Wrongtitle== You've completely misunderstood this template. It is used for things like n-body problem and p-adic number and vi in which it is incorrect to capitalize the initial letter. It is also used for things like pi, since people writing mathematics in English almost always use the lower-case Greek letter for that, and when it must be spelled out, should be lower-case. Maybe one should write "Erdos" without the diacritical marks, but that doesn't change the application of this template to those other examples. User:Michael Hardy 04:05, 18 May 2005 (UTC) ... and you really ought to take the advice of one of the many who have objected to your proposal: ::Have you looked at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Template%3AWrongtitle what links here] page? I daresay less than 10% of those articles fall under any of your five complaints. User:Michael Hardy 04:09, 18 May 2005 (UTC) ::Its intended use - for diacritic-modified Roman alphabet-based characters only You ''got'' to be kidding!! I've used this template repeatedly, and ''never'' for that reason! Diacritics are not what this is about. Where did you ever get the idea that that was its intended use? User:Michael Hardy 04:12, 18 May 2005 (UTC) : You, as a mathie, use it for such a reason, but its use is far more (too IMHO) general. From "what links here", it appears that that more general use affects very few articles. User:Michael Hardy 19:13, 18 May 2005 (UTC) : Your argument is one-sided. As for the distinction between P-adic numbers versus p-adic numbers.. Will the title ''ever'' be lowercase first? Might be something to ask the m:developers - I dont think it will be the case that lowecase will ever be the default unless there's a way to handle hidden redirects and disambiguation-differentiation between the two. No one has suggested that a lower-case initial letter in the title should be the ''default'' -- only that there are a few cases in which a capital initial is incorrect. Clearly, one would prefer to write '''''p''-adic number''' with the ''p'' italicized and in lower-case and the rest of the title not italicized, and it would be strange to propose that a capital ''P'' in that role is anything but incorrect. Similarly with '''''n''-body problem'''. And the fact that the developers have ''not'' dealt with this problem is precisely the reason why the template was created. User:Michael Hardy 19:13, 18 May 2005 (UTC) : So, in that case the assertion that the title is "wrong" due to "technical limitations" is wrong on both counts. Here you've lost me completely: what are these two "counts" you're referring to? It is as if you're suggesting that you've given two reasons why the assertion is wrong, but I can't find those reasons above. User:Michael Hardy 19:13, 18 May 2005 (UTC) : The title is not wrong -- merely capitalized, It is wrong because it is capitalized when standard conventions call for lower case. No one would begin a sentence by saying "''P''-adic numbers will be the topic of the next chapter" when they could write "''p''-adic numbers will be the topic of the next chapter", and no one would fail to think that the former looks not only incorrect but really weird. User:Michael Hardy 19:13, 18 May 2005 (UTC) : and the technical limitation: 'automatic capitalization of the first letter' isnt a limitation if its convention and policy. The problem is that ''convention and policy'' that are broad and universal consider it incorrect to write "''P''-adic numbers" at the beginning of a sentence. User:Michael Hardy 19:13, 18 May 2005 (UTC) ::First of all, the formatting above is kind of choppy - and dissects my statements without really giving context (Yes, my statement that "its intended use is..." was incorrect.) Second, nobody agrees with me that the template wrongtitle is too general and overused - they point to cases like vi and ''p''-adic numbers, claiming "its not used ''trivially"'' - it shows that they dont really understand the argument. Heres the argument again in a nutshell 1. take all the cases where wrongtitle is used 2. divide these by case-type (whatever way it can be sliced) 3. make sub-templates for each kind of use 4. vote on each kind of use based on its merits. Doesnt that seem reasonable? ::Aside from that, the basic idea that "MediaWiki internals" be the object of top-line nitpicking is silly - its easy to correct in the first line, and the understanding that the title is problematic is "MediaWiki internals" and nobody cares - upgrade it when you do. Capitalization is trivial matter, in almost any case I can see on Special:whatlinkshere/Template:Wrongtitle. Your using math cases where capitalization is symbolically relevant and avoiding the basic fact that its used for trivial things like limpbizkit and iD software, etc. -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 19:23, 18 May 2005 (UTC) == My Username == I realise that my name is unconventional; however, I do not think that it violates any of the name policy and it is not my intention to violate the name policy. I hope that you can see that I am proclaiming my POV but not flouting the rules here. User:Abeo Paliurus was User User talk:Abeo Paliurus 20:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC) :I decided to avoid conflict :) User:Abeo Paliurus was User User talk:Abeo Paliurus 15:45, 20 May 2005 (UTC) ::A good idea - got that out of the way. I disagree with the idea of redirecting to an unused account - If expressing a POV was all thats desired you could put a big banner on your userpage. Further, people express their pov in article issues all the time - the name thing doesnt really do anything to advance a POV other than to prejudice you as one seeking to advance one - which doesnt quite work as well. -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 18:02, 20 May 2005 (UTC) == Deleting TFD's too early == While I can't dispute you deleting a couple of the templates (like the blank one and the disruptive LevelCheck ones), I must insist you restore :Template:Semi-policy and :Template:Valid until the voting period is complete (5 days). If you wanna help with maintenance, start from the bottom of the Wikipedia:Templates for deletion page. -- User:Netoholic User talk:Netoholic 20:42, 2005 May 18 (UTC) == Signing your votes on TFD == Remember to always Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages on Wikipedia:Talk page. Typing four tildes after your comment ( ~~~~ ) will insert a signature showing your Wikipedia:Username and a date/time stamp, which is very helpful. -- User:Netoholic User talk:Netoholic 02:24, 2005 May 19 (UTC) :Sometimes I just use an -SV :: Yes, but that's not helpful when someone wants to contact you or see what ''time'' you signed. Four tildes is easy. -- User:Netoholic User talk:Netoholic 06:16, 2005 May 19 (UTC) ==Page protection== Greetings! I've taken the liberty of unprotecting several pages on mathematical constants you protected on April 27, as it seems to go against Wikipedia:Protection policy. A new editor came into IRC this morning asking why one of them was protected as he wished to work on it, and no valid reason for protection could be found by Rama or myself, nor were the pages listed on Wikipedia:Protected page. As presumptuous as I feel chastising an old hand, please don't do this in the future. User:Mindspillage User talk:Mindspillage 18:44, 19 May 2005 (UTC) ==Neemuch/Temp== Please put your changes on Neemuch/Temp. User:RickKUser talk:RickK 09:25, May 22, 2005 (UTC) == censorship == i would greatly appreciate it if you would: :a) respond to my explanation for why i removed the far side comic which i placed on the talkpage the first time i removed it, which explains that it is a copyvio, that it is pov, and that comics are not encyclopedic unless the article is about the comic (have you ever seen comics used in this way in encyclopedias?). :b) refrain from accusing me of censorship when i explain my reasoning for the removal on the talkpage (an explanation for which there was no response), stand by to watch the addition of ridiculous, inaccurate, and generally bogus edits because evolutionists don't have the courage to put npov before their own bigotry and paranoia, and have given up on adding cited, sourced descriptions of creationism because they are inevitably deleted. :c) refrain from accusing me of censorship in edit summaries, which is not a place for such comments whether or not they are true. thank you. User:Ungtss 13:40, 23 May 2005 (UTC) == Worth a try == By your suggestion, Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:delete. User:Radiant!User_talk:Radiant!meta:mergist 07:04, May 24, 2005 (UTC) == Numbers template == At Wikipedia:WikiProject Numbers we're wondering for what kinds of pages you meant Template:Numbers to be used. User:Anton Mravcek 21:00, 24 May 2005 (UTC) == Fixed up the first paragraph of the ACIM article == Dear Steve,         As per your suggestion, I have just enhanced the first paragraph of the ACIM article. Any further suggestions for improvements would be most appreciated.                     Sincerely,                     User:Scottperry 03:38, May 25, 2005 (UTC) == Further cleanup of ACIM article == Dear Steve,           As per some of your suggestions, I have gone ahead and further cleaned up the intro to the ACIM article.                               Thanks,                               User:Scottperry 14:30, May 25, 2005 (UTC) == Wikipede == Hi Steve. :Image:Wikipedesketch1.png was listed on WP:IFD by User:Radiant!. I don't know whether you want to delete it in favor of :Image:Wikipede1.png; anyway, I'll leave them both alone, since they're both used. Cheers, User:Dbenbenn | User talk:Dbenbenn 20:00, 28 May 2005 (UTC) == Armenian Genocide == Hi. I did not revert Yce materials, but Presumably. It was copypasted from an article from the web, which alone is against Wikipedia policy of copyrights. Regards User:Fadix 01:24, 29 May 2005 (UTC) == Thanks for the assistance with the ACIM article == Dear Steve,
          Thanks for your many helpful comments and your work on the ACIM article. As I feel certain you must have noticed by now, this article is of particular interest to me as I am a student of this work. I would guess that you are probably a bit more on the 'right side' of the spectrum of Christianity, than I. Still, what seems to me to make Wikipedia work as well as it does is the fact that Truth is always stronger than fiction, and in the meeting place of the Wikipedia, it seems to me that eventually folks are able to come up with a greater, more whole perspective on things. More whole and complete than any one particular individual's more limited understanding of something. Your input there has indeed broadened my perspectives. Thanks....
                              Take care,
                              User:Scottperry 17:14, May 29, 2005 (UTC) == :Image:Sciencecenter.jpg == I am little confused as to who took this image. Can you clear that up? User:Burgundavia (User talk:Burgundavia) 03:54, May 30, 2005 (UTC) == Template:Special == This template was put on TFD, and the consensus was to userfy. Thus, I've moved it to User:Stevertigo/Special. Yours, User:Radiant!User_talk:Radiant!meta:mergist 08:25, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC) == Trust edit == Sad to see my "Trust is hope in action" go, but I think you're right about the inter-personal remit of "trust". The phrase just seemed so poetic... ;) == Trust == I think "Faith is hope in action" pretty much makes sense... maybe I'll have a go at the "Faith" article. User:Weaverluke == creating experimental templates == Hi Stevertigo, I'm sure you've noticed that a lot of templates that you have created have gone through tfd. I would suggest that in the future you use your userspace for your experimental templates. Then if they get widely used they can always be moved to templatespace. Would save a lot of work at tfd. Thanks in advance. --User:MarSch 12:10, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC) :Actually, perhaps you could take a look through all those project templates of yours and userfy the unused ones that you want to keep and list the rest at tfd, thanks --User:MarSch 13:37, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Possible new mediator and committee chair == User:MacGyverMagic has nominated himself to be a mediator and indicated he's willing to take over as chair. In an effort to help keep the mediation process alive, it would be nice if you could comment on this at Wikipedia:Mediation Committee. --User:Michael Snow 20:12, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC) *I'm trying to get the RFM page more readable by archiving old and/or failed requests. Can you go through the list of requests and give me an update on the cases you mediated or otherwise know about? User:MacGyverMagic|User talk:MacGyverMagic 18:13, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC) == Faith == Fair cop guv'nor. ; ) User:Weaverluke 08:58, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Ethno-stub== Hi Stevertigo... any reason why you moved and deleted a heavily-used stub template, without consultation with TFD or the Stub sorting WikiProject? The template was named in accordance with the naming guidelines of WP:WSS, unlike the new name which you seem to have decided to use, and has been restored to its former place. If you plan to do such a thing in the future, please at the very least let those who use these stub templates know what you are doing, or - better still - put the suggestion up for debate in one of the places where such decisions are normally made. Don't leave stub sorters to suddenly discovere a frequently used template has disappeared. User:Grutness...''User_talk:Grutness 06:34, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC) :(you replied) ''I assume you were talking about Template:ethno-stub. I had simply forked it to separate ethnic groups and general ethnology stubs. Whats the heck's wrong with that?'' That might have been what you were trying to do, but what you actually did was move some items into ethnic-stub, then delete the original template. As to what's wrong with that, well firstly there was no discussion at WP:WSS/C about making a new template and stub category. Secondly, the deleted template was on over 200 articles, so they all suddenly sprouted redlinks. Thirdly, the deletion was done without reference to WP:TFD - it was just suddenly gone with no warning. If you want to split the category into two different categories (which, given the size of the category, isn't really necessary), then please follow the guidelines listed on the various stub-related pages in Wikipedia and go through the discussion process first! User:Grutness...''User_talk:Grutness 07:56, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Ghostwriting and ACIM == Dear Steve,
          I know of no other instance where the term ''ghostwriter'' actually refers to a supernatural writer. Normally the term ghostwriter refers to an author that is intentionally not listed in any way on (or in) a book. In the case of ACIM, not only did Schucman leave a spot for the author she believed wrote the book when she filed the copyright (anonymous), but within the book it is full of references to having actually been authored by Jesus. To term the authorship of ACIM as a form of ghostwriting is not consistent with the dictionary definition of ghostwriting, which is:
''"to write speeches, books, articles, etc., for another person who is named as or presumed to be the author."''
          Here it is assumed that both the true author and the alleged author are being presented as real living, breathing, flesh and blood people.           Ghostwriting is not to be confused with channeling, as these are two entirely different things. If you are asserting that Schucman actually knowingly wrote the work and surreptitiously tried to present Jesus as its true author, then this would not be referred to as ghostwriting, but rather as a false attribution.           If you are asserting that Shucman herself ever claimed that she ghostwrote the book, then could you please list your sources for this claim?                                         Thanks,                                         Scott Perry == OK, lets compare apples to apples == If you want to insert the term ghostwriting into the description of ACIM, why not insert it into the various sections of the Bible where various Biblical authors claim to be quoting from God? Why use this fuzzy self assuredness when the article about the Bible says that its authors "are inspired by God"? Let's be fair about this and say instead that the "claim to be inspired by God." I'm willing to let you make these changes to the ACIM article if you would be willing to let me rewrite the article about the Bible in the same fashion. Deal? Scott
== Comparing bronze apples to fresh sprouts == Ah, so now you spring your little argument youve been itching for a while to do. In otherwords, 'How can Wikipedia support the supernatural claims in the Bible, and not those in ''my'' particular brand new religion.' First of all, Wikipedia doesnt support anything. Articles are to be written NPOV - that doesnt mean that articles dont ever use Biblespeak, rather when it ''is'' used, its used in proper context: "In the Bible, etc. etc." This is not the Schucmanism Encyclopedia. Even if the claim that Jesus wrote the thing was universal among Christians, this is not the Christian Encyclopedia. Im not particularly attached to the term ghostwriting, but your wording - that [whatever it was called] is like channeling, etc - was not neutral, and placed too much emphasis on a trivial matter - trivial, because supernatural claims, despite our understanding of them in faith, are not encyclopedically substantive. This is of course the problem with religion - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and a lot of knowledge of just one thing is just plain dogma. You seem to be asserting that there is a dogmatic bias in wikipedia regarding the Bible. Its interesting, but you need to poing out specific examples, and then you need to deal with them on a case by case basis. Maybe you have a point here - I cant tell ATP. Dont forget "the log in your own" BTW. Its obviously a very touchy subject, but we deal from time to time with people seeking to push a POV in their writing, and after a while they realize that theyve already added all the ''information'' necessary to the article, but leave the writing to others. Its an important distinction - I myself have a couple times had to defer to others sometimes in cases where a conflict arose between two different POV writing styles. The question is: are yours and mine different enought to require outside help in resolving any dispute. Finally, "Ill let you..." doesnt work here - its not your article, though you have had more part than anyone in developing it. And I was simply rewriting it for sake of neutral tone - something which you should ''welcome,'' not reject - as it legitimizes and adds to your work, just as your work adds to the project. Sinreg -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 05:02, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
== Thanks for not insisting on referring to schucman as a ghost-writer == Dear Steve,
          After reading some encyclopedia Britannica articles on other new religious movements, like Science of the Mind, Mormonism, and Christian Science, I have attempted to reword the intro along these lines, and attempted to remove some of the phrases you suggested as not being NPOV. User:Scottperry 11:11, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC) == Reply to point by point breakdown of ACIM intro == Dear Steve,
          Since my last edit, I came across your point by point breakdown re the ACIM intro, and here is my point by point reply: 1. A Course In Miracles (or "ACIM") is a book on spiritual principles, * First thing - What is it? ~ A book by someone about something, read by someone, who draws x conclusions and bases x associations and concepts on it. -SV ''
I believe that all of these topics are finally now covered in the intro.
'' 2. alleged to have been written by none other than the person of Jesus Christ, * The wording "none other than..." is improper for an NPOV article. Because this sentence is speculative, (and particular to a POV interpretation) it can be dealt with later - deal with what it (the book) is first. Save claims and speculation for POV section or explicitly cite them as claims by x. -SV ''
I have removed this phrase.
'' 3. via a certain type of channeling process known as inner dictation in which Helen Schucman describes herself as having been the "scribe". * Same as 1 - but at least this is clearer. -SV ''
Inserted word: claim to refer more neutrally to this process.
'' 4. The official copyright claim for the book lists Helen Schucman and "Anonymous" as the authors. Presumably, here the listing of Anonymous as an author is a veiled reference to Schucman's belief or claim that Jesus Christ was the true author. * This is highly speculative, and more its speculative about a rather unconventional or difficult to rationalise claim. It needs to be determined then, if she actually claimed the work to be "ghostwritten by Gee-zuss" or if its only the claim of its practicioners. -SV ''
All of these assertions can be documented by ample already published source material. If you would like, I would be happy to provide appropriate footnoting for this.
'' 5. The book was written in the style of a textbook, and contains various teachings and exercises covering the topics of forgiveness, brotherhood, and the nature of love. * This (my wording) seems clear, but works only as an intro to the contents of the book - a secondary paragraph. -SV ''
This is included in the intro as I feel that a good intro needs to briefly touch on the type of contents to be found in the book.
'' 6. Schucman describes having "received" the material between 1965 and 1978, and to have transcribed it with the assistance of Bill Thetford. * This seems to contradict 3 - please distinguish her claims from the claims of her followers. -SV ''
Please elaborate. I cannot see the contradiction. BTW, Schucman never had any personal “followers”, only people who followed the teachings of ACIM who never ascribed any particular spiritual authority to her, other than having once “channeled” ACIM
'' 7. The title of the book was derived from the book's core premise that love is a miracle, and it surpasses all others in value. -SV * This seems like a claim, its not necessary to attribute it perhaps, but consider "title of the book is claimed to refer to love— as a miracle above all other miracles."-SV ''
The actual text includes numerous assertions that this is its core premise. Why not allow its core premise to be laid out in the article intro?
'' 8. The 365 practical exercises it contains were designed to be performed daily over the course of a year, and contain various meditations, prayers and mental exercises intended to provide practical illustrations and applications for the advancement of spiritual wisdom through forgiveness and love. * The combination of "practical" and "spiritual" is almost oxymoronic, or otherwise expressive of a particular POV which advocates a spiritual view. The problem with allowing for one such POV, it means that all variations of such POV must also be considered. Its not POV to represent POV as claims - it is POV to use language which implicitly accepts a POV premise. -SV ''
It seems to me that your assertion here that spirituality is inherently impractical is an oxymoron, and may represent a certain POV. Considering the fact that all of the exercises and teachings are meant to involve real-life situations, and not merely theories, is it not POV to insist that such is inherently impractical, and therefore to imply that the fundamental premise of the book must be inherently flawed, as you seem to be insisting?
'' 9. The general teaching sections of the book consistently aim at enabling students to gain a conceptual framework (...) by which to apply the 365 daily lessons. * Remove my "metaphoric language" - overdone -SV ''
I thought you were the one who inserted this. I agree and have removed it.
'' * IMHO my version was superior in that it seperated logically the general concept introduction, the claims of authorship, the contents, and the nature of the followership. Your version simply jumbles the first three and removes the fourth. -SV|t 08:25, 26 May 2005 (UTC) ''
I have since laid out the intro with separate paragraphs for each of these three things.
'' Thanks, User:Scottperry 11:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC) == Notice: Reply to last ACIM article comment now posted on ACIM talk page == Dear Steve,
          In an attempt to try to centralize our recent in depth discussion of the ACIM article, I have now posted some of our recent conversation about this on the ACIM talk page at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:A_Course_In_Miracles#Further_thougts_about_point_by_point_breakdown ACIM talk page]. Perhaps this was your initial intention when you first posted your in depth point by point breakdown there. At any rate, my most recent reply to you is also now posted there. Thanks, User:Scottperry 19:10, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC) PS: Sorry I got a little hot and bothered about some of the changes over at the ACIM article. That was a bit stupid of me. Ouch! It hurts to have to say things like this.... Cheers, User:Scottperry 04:13, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC) == Template:Merge-tasks == What is this template to be used for? Or is it no longer needed and eligible for deletion? -- User:Beland 06:00, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Thanks very much == Thanks for helping in renovating my stubborn editions in the articles... thanks! Deryck C., HK,CN :Bù xie/youre absolutely welcome. :) -User:Stevertigo|User_talk:Stevertigo 09:35, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC) == WP:TFD == Template:Npov/perpetual, which you created, has been listed for deletion at WP:TFD. User:BlankVerse User talk:BlankVerse 05:45, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Pakistan == Hi! I noticed you added :Image:Pakistan.gif to the top of Pakistan. The edit was done while the page was under protection, and it unfortunately made the country infobox get moved to the middle of the page under Firefox. It's also not a free image, and I'm not sure that it really belongs in the top of the article (I don't think many country articles have a map like that near the top). If the article weren't protected, I'd remove it, but since it is, I wanted to come to ask you. Please go take a look at the page in Firefox if you can, and do what you think is best. Thanks. :) User:Kmccoy User_talk:Kmccoy 01:42, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) I messed up the image link above, and also it's been reverted anyway. Sorry for the trouble. :) == Talk:Bombing of Dresden in World War II == Do you have a source for you posting to BDWWII: :''"Out of 28,410 houses in the inner city of Dresden, 24,866 were destroyed." I would like to source the article and I do not have quite the same figures as you state for this. User:Philip Baird Shearer 18:50, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Royal consorts and monarchs == hi there. i´m trying to get a discussion going to change the rules on naming consorts, monarchs, etc.. it´s a bit of mess at the moment. maybe you wanna join in and give your opinion? feel free [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_%28names_and_titles%29#Royal_consorts_and_monarchs] cheers User:Antares911 23:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Benazir Bhutto == R you interested in to join the discussion of cleaning up the article of Benazir Bhutto? Talk:Benazir Bhutto--User:Raju1 03:14, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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