Spanish Language

#REDIRECT Spanish language

Spanish language

:''This article is about the international language known as Spanish or Castilian. For other languages spoken in Spain see :Category:Languages of Spain.'' Spanish or Castilian is an Iberian Romance languages Romance language, and the second (perhaps third or fourth) most spoken language in the world. It is spoken as a first language by about 352 million people, or by 417 million including non-native speakers (according to 1999 estimates). =="Spanish" or "Castilian"== Spaniards tend to call this language ''espa�ol'' (Spanish) when contrasting it with languages of other states (for example: in a list with French and English), but call it ''castellano'' (Castilian, from the Castile region) when contrasting it with other languages of Spain (such as Galician, Basque language, and Catalan language). For the rest of the Spanish-speaking world, speakers of the language in some areas refer to it as ''espa�ol'', and in others ''castellano'' is more common. ==Classification== Spanish is a member of the Romance languages branch of Indo-European, descended largely from Latin and having much in common with its European geographical neighbors. ==History== The Spanish language was developed from vulgar Latin, with influence from Celtiberian, Basque and Arabic language, in the north of the Iberian Peninsula (see Iberian Romance languages). Typical features of Spanish diachronical phonology include lenition (Latin ''vita'', Spanish ''vida''), palatalization (Latin ''annum'', Spanish ''a�o'') and diphthongation (stem-changing) of breve E/O from vulgar Latin (Latin ''terra'', Spanish ''tierra''; Latin ''novus'', Spanish ''nuevo''); similar phenomena can be found in most Romance languages as well. During the ''Reconquista'', this northern dialect was carried south, and indeed is still a minority language in northern Morocco. The first Latin to Spanish dictionary (''Gram�tica de la Lengua Castellana'') was written in Salamanca, Spain in 1492 by Antonio de Nebrija. When Isabella of Castile was presented with the book, she asked, ''�Para qu� quiero una obra como �sta si ya conozco el idioma?'', "What do I want a work like this for, if I already know the language?", to which he replied, ''Se�ora, la lengua es el instrumento del Imperio'', "Ma'am, the language is the instrument of Empire." From the 16th century on, the language was brought to the Americas, Federated States of Micronesia, Guam, Marianas, Palau and the Philippines, by Spanish colonization of the Americas. In the 20th century, Spanish was introduced in Equatorial Guinea and Western Sahara. ''For details on borrowed words and other external influences in Spanish, see Influences on the Spanish language.'' ==Geographic distribution== Spanish is one of the official languages of the United Nations, the European Union and the African Union. The majority of its speakers are confined to the Western Hemisphere, Europe and the Spanish territories in Africa (Canary Islands, Ceuta and Melilla). With close to 100 million first-language and second-language speakers, Mexico boasts the largest population of Spanish-speakers in the world. The four next largest populations reside in Colombia (44 million), Spain (c. 44 million), Argentina (39 million) and the United States (c. 30 million). Spanish is the official and most important language in 20 countries: Argentina, Bolivia (co-official Quechua and Aymara_language), Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea (co-official French language), Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay (co-official Guarani_language), Peru (co-official Quechua, and Aymara_language), Spain (co-official Catalan language, Galician language, and Basque language), Uruguay and Venezuela . It is an important and widely-spoken language, but without official recognition, in Andorra and Belize. It is spoken by much of the population of the British overseas territory of Gibraltar (which is also claimed by Spain), though English language remains the most widely used and only official language. Yanito, an English-Spanish mixed language is also spoken. In the United States, Spanish is spoken by some three-quarters of its over 40 million Hispanic American population. It is also being learned and spoken by a small, though slowly growing, proportion of its non-Hispanic population for its increasing use in business, commerce, and both domestic and international politics. Spanish does hold co-official status in the state of New Mexico, and in the unincorporated U.S. territory of Puerto Rico. ''See Spanish in the United States for further information.'' Spanish is also spoken by segments of the populations in Aruba, Canada, Israel (both standard Spanish and the Jud�o-Spanish of the Sephardim, also known as Ladino), northern Morocco (both standard Spanish and Ladino), Netherlands Antilles, Trinidad and Tobago, Turkey (Ladino), the U.S. Virgin Islands, and Western Sahara. In Brazil, where virtually the entire population speaks Portuguese, Spanish is obtaining an important status as a second or third language (after English) among young students and some skilled professionals. The close genetic relationship between the two languages - along with the fact that Spanish is the dominant and official language of almost every country that borders Brazil - adds to the popularity. Standard Spanish and Ladino (Jud�o-Spanish) may also be spoken natively by some Spanish-descended Brazilians, immigrant workers from neighbouring Spanish-speaking countries and Brazilian Sephardim respectively, who have maintained it as the language of the home. Additionally, in many Brazilian border towns and villages (especially along the Uruguayo-Brazilian border) a mixed language commonly known as Portu�ol (from the words "portugu�s" and "espa�ol") is also spoken. In European countries other than Spain and Andorra, it may be spoken by some of their Spanish-speaking immigrant communities, primarily in the Netherlands, Italy, France, Germany and the United Kingdom. Among the countries and territories in Oceania, Spanish is the seventh most spoken language after English in Australia, where in the 2001 Australian Census, of the persons who reported they spoke a language other than English at home, around 97,000 reported Spanish. It is also spoken by the approximately 3,000 inhabitants of Easter Island, a territorial possession of Chile. The island nations of Guam, Palau, Northern Marianas, Marshall Islands and Federated States of Micronesia all once had Spanish speakers, but Spanish has long since been forgotten, and now only exists as an influence on the local native languages. In Asia the Spanish language has long been in decline. Spanish ceased to be an official language of the Philippines in 1973, and it is now spoken by less than 0.01% of the population; 2,658 speakers (1990 Census). However, the sole existing Spanish-Asiatic creole language, Chabacano, is also spoken by an additional 0.4% of the Filipino population; 292,630 (1990 census). Most other Languages of the Philippines contain generous quantities of Spanish loan words. Among other Asian countries, Spanish may also be spoken by pockets of ex-immigrant communities, such as Mexican-born overseas Chinese deported to China or third and fourth generation ethnic Japanese Peruvians returning to their ancestral homeland of Japan. In the Antarctic, the territorial claims and permanent bases made by Argentina, Chile, Peru and Spain also place Spanish as the official and working language of these enclaves. ==Variations== There are important variations in dialect among the various regions of Spain and Spanish-speaking America. In Spain the North Castilian dialect pronunciation is commonly taken as the national standard (although the characteristic weak pronouns usage or ''la�smo'' of this dialect is deprecated). Spanish has three second-person singular pronouns ''t�'', ''usted'', and in some parts of Latin America, ''vos'', also known as the ''voseo''. Generally speaking, ''T�'' and ''vos'' are informal and used with friends (though in Spain "''Vos''" is considered a highly exalted archaism that is now confined to liturgy). ''Usted'' is universally regarded as the formal form, and is used as a mark of respect, as when addressing one's elders or strangers. ''Vos'' is used extensively as the primary form of the second-person singular in various countries around Latin America (Argentina, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Paraguay and Uruguay) but can also be present in other countries as a limited regionalism. Its use, depending on country and region, can be considered the accepted standard or reproached as sub-standard and considered as speech of the ignorant and uneducated. The interpersonal situations in which the employment of ''vos'' is acceptable may also differ considerably between regions. Spanish dialects also differ regarding second-person plural pronouns. The Spanish dialects of Latin America have only one form of the second-person plural; ''ustedes'' (formal/familiar). Meanwhile, Castilian Spanish of Spain has two; ''ustedes'' (formal) and ''vosotros'' (familiar/informal). The RAE (Real Academia Espa�ola), in association with twenty-one other national language academies, exercises a prudent influence through its publication of dictionaries and widely respected grammar guides and style guides. ==Grammar== Spanish is a relatively inflected language, with a two-Grammatical gender system and about fifty conjugated forms per verb, but small noun declension and limited pronominal declension. (For a detailed overview of verbs, see Spanish verbs and Spanish irregular verbs.) As for syntax, the unmarked sentence word order is Subject Verb Object, though variations are possible. Spanish is right-branching language, using prepositions, and with adjectives generally coming after nouns. Spanish is also pro-drop language (allows the elision of pronouns when unnecessary) and verb framing. ==Phonology== The consonantal system of Castilian Spanish, by the 16th century, underwent the following important changes that differentiated it from some Iberian Romance languages, such as Portuguese language, Valencian and Catalan language: *The initial , that had evolved into a vacillating , was lost in most words (although this etymological h- has been preserved in spelling). *The voiced labiodental fricative (that was written ''u'' or ''v'') merged with the bilabial oclusive (written ''b''). Orthographically, ''b'' and ''v'' do not correspond to different phonemes in contemporary Spanish, excepting some areas in Spain, particularly the ones influenced by Catalan/Valencian and some Andalusia. *The voiced alveolar fricative (that was written ''s'' between vowels) merged with the voiceless (that was written ''s'', or ''ss'' between vowels). *The voiced alveolar affricate (that was written ''z'') merged with the voiceless (that was written ''�, ce, ci''), and then evolved into the interdental , now written ''z, ce, ci''. But in Andalucia, the Canary Islands and the Americas these sounds merged with as well. Notice that the ''�'' or ''c with cedilla'' was in its origin a Spanish letter, although is no longer used. *The voiced postalveolar fricative (that was written ''j, ge, gi'') merged with the voiceless (that was written ''x'', as in ''Quixote''), and then evolved by the 17th century into the modern velar sound , now written ''j, ge, gi''. The consonantal system of Medieval Spanish has been better preserved in Ladino language, the language spoken by the descendants of the sephardic who were expelled from Spain in the 15th century. ===Lexical stress=== Spanish has a phoneme stress (phonology) system — the place where stress will fall cannot be predicted by other features of the word, and two words can differ by just a change in stress. For example, the word ''camino'' (with penultimate stress) means "road" or "I walk" whereas ''camin�'' (with final stress) means "he/she/it walked". Also, since Spanish pronounces all syllables at a more or less constant tempo, it is said to be a ''Timing (linguistics)'' language. ==Writing system== Spanish is written using the Latin alphabet, with a few special letters: the vowels can be marked with an acute accent (''�, �, �, �, �'') to mark stress when it does not follow the normal pattern or to differentiate otherwise equally spelt words (see below); ''u'' with diaeresis (''�'') after ''g'' to indicate that it should be pronounced ; and ''n'' with tilde (''�'') to indicate the palatal nasal . Traditionally, the digraph ''rr'' was considered a separate letter, but this is no longer the case; the digraphs ''ch'' and ''ll'' have been considered separate letters since 1803 (see the DRAE for the entries on [http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltGUIBusUsual?TIPO_HTML=2&LEMA=ch ''ch''] and [http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltGUIBusUsual?TIPO_HTML=2&LEMA=ll ''ll'']). However, in 1994, the tenth congress of the Association of Spanish Language Academies agreed to sort ''ch'' and ''ll'' as ordinary pairs of letters by request of UNESCO and other international organizations, while keeping them as distinct letters for other purposes. Thus for example ''ch'', instead of being sorted between ''c'' and ''d'' as formerly, now comes between ''ce'' and ''ci''. Written Spanish precedes exclamatory and interrogative clauses with inverted Question mark and Exclamation mark, examples: ''�Qu� dices?'' (''What do you mean?'') ''�No es verdad!'' (''It's not true!''). This feature provides an immediate understanding of a written sentence's sense from its very beginning. Spanish is one of the few languages whose written form does so. Written Spanish also marks unequivocally stress (language) through a series of orthographic rules. The default stress is on the final syllable when the word ends in any consonant other than ''-n'' or ''-s'' and on the penultimate (next-to-last) syllable on words that end in a vowel, ''n'' or ''s''. Words that do not follow the default stress have an acute accent over the stressed vowel. A word with final stress is called ''aguda''; a word with penultimate stress is called ''llana'' or ''grave''; a word with antepenultimate stress (stress on the third last syllable) is called ''esdr�jula''; and a word with preantepenultimate stress (on the fourth last syllable) or earlier is called ''sobresdr�jula''. All ''esdr�jula'' and ''sobresdr�jula'' words have written accent marks. Also, in a number of cases, homonyms are distinguished with written accents on the stressed (or only) syllable: for example, ''te'' (informal object case of "you") and ''t�'' ("tea"); ''se'' (third person reflexive) and ''s�'' ("I know" or imperative "be"); ''tu'' (informal "your") and ''t�'' (informal subject case of "you"). These rules are similar, but not the same, as those of Portuguese and Catalan. Spanish orthography is such that every speaker can guess the pronunciation (adapted for accent) from the written form. While the same pronunciation could be misspelt in several ways — there are homophones, because of the language's silent ''h'', vacillations between ''b'' and ''v'', and between ''c'' and ''z'' (and between ''c'', ''z'', and ''s'' in Latin America and some parts of the Peninsula) — the orthography is far more coherent than, say, English orthography. In spite of that, there have been several initiatives to reform the spelling: Andr�s Bello succeeded in making his proposal official in several South American countries, but they later returned to the RAE standard. Another initiative, the O.RR.L.I., remained a curiosity. Juan Ram�n Jim�nez proposed changing ''-ge-'' and ''-gi'' to ''-je-'' and ''ji'', but this is only applied in editions of his works or Zenobia Camprub�'s. Gabriel Garc�a M�rquez raised the issue of reform during a congress at Zacatecas, Zacatecas, but, with all his prestige, he got attention but nothing going. The Academies however from time to time change several tidbits. Spanish is nicknamed ''la lengua de Miguel de Cervantes'' (''the language of Cervantes'', the author of ''Don Quixote''). ===Examples of Spanish=== Note, the third column uses the International Phonetic Alphabet, the standard for linguists, to transcribe the sounds. There are several examples of travellers' vocabulary and one literary reference. You can media:Ejemplos_castellano.ogg. Both the transcription and the recording represent standard Castilian pronunciation. {| border="2" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse;" style="" !English !Spanish !IPA transcription |- ||Spanish|| ''espa�ol'' || [espa'ɲol] |- ||Spanish (Castilian) || ''castellano'' || [kaste'ʎano] |- ||hello, hi || ''hola'' || ['ola] |- ||Good morning! || ''�buenos d�as!'' || ['bwenos 'dias] |- ||Good afternoon/evening! || ''�buenas tardes!'' || ['bwenas 'tardes] |- ||Good night! || ''�buenas noches!'' || ['bwenas 'not∫es] |- ||goodbye || ''adi�s'' || [a'ðjos] |- ||please || ''por favor'' || [porfa'βor] |- ||thank you || ''gracias'' || ['graθjas] |- ||sorry || ''perd�n'' || [per'ðon] |- ||because || ''porque'' || ['porke] |- ||hurry up! || ''�date prisa!'' || ['date'prisa] |- ||that (thing)|| ''eso'' || ['eso] |- ||how much? || ''cu�nto'' || ['kwanto] |- || again || ''otra vez'' || ['otra 'βeθ] |- || always || ''siempre'' || ['sjempre] |- ||for example || ''por ejemplo'' || [por e'xemplo] |- ||English || ''ingl�s'' || [iŋ'gles] |- ||yes || ''s�'' || ['si] |- ||no || ''no'' || ['no] |- ||I don't understand || ''no entiendo'' || [noen'tjendo] |- ||where's the bathroom? || ''�d�nde est� el ba�o?'' || ['dondees'tael'βaɲo] |- ||cheers! (toast) || ''�salud!'' || [sa'luð] |- ||do you speak English? || ''�habla usted ingl�s?'' || ['aβlawsteðiɲ'gles] |} {| border="2" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse;" style="" |- ||English: || In some village in La Mancha, whose name I do not care to recall, there dwelt not so long ago a gentleman of the type wont to keep an unused lance, an old shield, a greyhound for racing, and a skinny old horse. |- ||Spanish: || ''En un lugar de la Mancha, de cuyo nombre no quiero acordarme, no ha mucho tiempo que viv�a un hidalgo de los de lanza en astillero, adarga antigua, roc�n flaco y galgo corredor''. |- ||IPA transcription: || [enunlu'ɣarðela'mantʃa de'kuɟo'nombreno'kjeroakor'ðarme noa'mutʃo'tjempokeβi'βiauni'ðalɣo ðelozðe'lanθaenasti'ʎero a'ðarɣaan'tiɣwa rro'θin'flako i'ɣalɣokorre'ðor] |} ''El Ingenioso Hidalgo Don Quixote de la Mancha'', Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra (opening sentence). ==See also== *''Real Academia Espa�ola'' *Common phrases in different languages#Spanish_(Romance) *List of English words of Spanish origin *Spanish proverbs *Spanish language poets *Spanish Creole *Rioplatense Spanish *Portu�ol *Papiamento, Chavacano language, Spanglish, Yanito, Palenquero *Spanish in the United States *Spanish in the Philippines *''Rock en espa�ol'' *Latin Union ==External links== ===About the Spanish language=== *[http://www.rae.es Official page of the RAE] (in Spanish) *[http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=spa Ethnologue report for Spanish] *[http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/i.e.mackenzie/index.html Spanish Language & Linguistics Website] *[http://assets.cambridge.org/0521805872/sample/0521805872WS.pdf PDF: A history of the Spanish language] *[http://www.sispain.org/english/language/worldwid.html Numbers of speakers by countries] *[http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/2444/splatin.html Spanish evolution from Latin] ===Dictionaries=== *[http://buscon.rae.es/diccionario/drae.htm DRAE, Dictionary of the RAE] (Spanish-spanish) *[http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/Spanish-english/ Spanish — English Dictionary]: from Webster's Rosetta Edition. *[http://www.diccionarios.com Diccionarios.com] *[http://www.my-spanish-dictionary.com/ An English-Spanish Dictionary] *[http://www.tododiccionarios.com/ Tododiccionarios.com] a directory of reference works in English or Spanish, classified by subject, with several thousand links. ===Grammatical help=== *[http://textbook.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish Spanish grammar Wikibook] *[http://www.econ.jhu.edu/people/tchaidze/SPANGRAM/tenses.html#correspondence Usage of Tenses] *[http://users.ipfw.edu/jehle/courses/accents.htm Use of written accent marks in Spanish] *[http://verbs.obrist.org Spanish Verb Forms] — Search and conjugate Spanish verbs. ===Tutorials=== *[http://www.quiz-buddy.com/spanish.html Spanish tutorials and Quizes] *[http://www.studyspanish.com/ StudySpanish.com] Popular website for beginners *[http://www.angelfire.com/ego/pdf/ng/argentina/arsp.html Rioplatense Spanish] Spanish from the River Plate basin *[http://www.spanish-kit.net Spanish-kit.net] Free Downloadable Spanish grammars, and vocabulary learning tools. *[http://www.wrongwaytolearnspanish.com/index.php/Main_Page Wrong Way To Learn Spanish] — A wiki about learning Spanish. *[http://www.spanicity.com/ Free Spanish classes online] Reference materials and dictionary for students of Spanish *[http://www.ielanguages.com/spanish.html Free Spanish Language Tutorial at ielanguages.com] ===Resources=== *[http://www.spanishblogger.com Spanish Blogs & Weblog Directory] *[http://www.applelanguages.com/en/learn/spanish.php Spanish School Search] Search for courses and places to learn Spanish in Spain and South America. Spanish language Languages of Spain Languages of Argentina Languages of Bolivia Languages of Chile Languages of Colombia Languages of Ecuador Languages of Guatemala Languages of Mexico Languages of Paraguay Languages of Peru Languages of Venezuela bs:Španjolski Jezik na:Espanise ga:Sp�innis la:Lingua Hispanica li:Castiliaans jbo:Sanban nv:Naakai bizaad simple:Spanish th:ภาษาสเปน

Spanish language

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page. Previous discussions: *Talk:Spanish language/Archive01: : 1 Incorrection | 2 Loss of vosotros/vuestro in parts of South America? | 3 IPA and SAMPA usage and inconsistencies | 4 History | 5 Major changes in the 19th century? | 6 Semivowel or not? | 7 Tambi�n and compadre have /n/ (arch)phoneme | 8 Inverted question marks | 9 Spanish syntax | 10 Castilian or Spanish? The situation in Spain | 11 Separate Grammar Page | 12 one of the oldest languages in the world | 13 Sound bites | 14 Oh dear | 15 Help with article | 16 MadriD | 17 Misspellings | 18 Adjectives | 19 Second person, third person, questions | 20 Castellano and Espa�ol | 21 digraphs as letters | 22 Countries that say castellano | 23 POV addition by anon | 24 Brazil | 25 Spanish word list | 26 Languages of... | 27 Northern Morocco Please add new threads at the bottom of this page ---- __TOC__ == Number of speakers == Where do the new figures for number of speakers come from? I don't mind people updating stuff without references ''per se'', but this kind of thing should be substantiated with sources...and there is ''no way'' anyone can authoritatively update such a thing (population figures) without sources...especially not when dealing with ''millions'' of speakers. User:TShilo12 ^{User talk:TShilo12} 02:02, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC) == All of Latin America is a Spanish region??? No! == In the info box section the "region" of the Spanish language says the language is spoken in "Spain, almost all of Latin America," - that is total nonsense. Brazil is a part of Latin America, in fact it is the largest(geographically) and most populous country in the region with more than a third of its population and Spanish is NOT widely spoken in Brazil. I changed the statement to "Central and South America, Caribbean islands," --User:212.82.166.162 09:46, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)Harold :Maybe it should say: "almos all countries in Latin America". --User:Marianocecowski 11:25, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) That is still too much considering the size and population of Brazil. The problem is "almost all countries or all in Latin America" is quite misleading because then it sounds as if the region was overwhelmingly Spanish speaking and, distorts the fact that Brazil is home to more than a third of all Latin Americans and about half of South America's land area. Haiti like Brazil is also Latin America and non-Spanish speaking but unlike Brazil, Haiti is a small country with a small population. If Haiti were the only non-Spanish speaking state in the region I would say "almost all countries" is okay. Brazil is only one country but home to huge percent of the region's people. Any statement with all or almost all is misleading in this subject because it basically classifies Latin America as a overwhelmingly Spanish-speaking region, which it isn't. --User:212.82.166.162 15:50, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)Harold :That's why in Spanish there is a distinction between ''Hispanoam�rica'' (all Spanish speaking countries in the continent), ''Iberoam�rica'' (ditto plus Brazil) and ''Latinoam�rica'' (to make room for Haiti and French Guiana]. User:Ejrrjs | User talk:Ejrrjs 19:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) Just a list of non-hispanic speakers(--User:Jondel 05:01, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)): *Brazil -Portuguese *Haiti -French *French Guiana-French *Belize - English *Suriname - Dutch *Guyana - English :latin america comprises more than 30 countries, and according to that list, 3 don't speak in spanish (yes, 3. English and Dutch are not romance languages, thus not part of latin america). Saying 'most countries' seems appropriate to me. Or would you say that half asia speaks russian because russia is such a huge country? Not stating "almost all countries in Latin America" is more misleading that not saying it, as you would think that latin america has a large number of spoken languages, which is not the case, IMHO. User:SpiceMan 13:09, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC) So, 90% of the countries and 66% of the people within the region speak Spanish (I agree with Spiceman's stats), User:SqueakBox 14:39, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC) == second most popular language? == Not even close. English is the winner hands down: http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/languages.htm As far as influence and importance goes, again, not even close: http://anthro.palomar.edu/language/language_1.htm Value as a language in the modern era: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JohnnyLing.shtml Spanish has fewer then 100,000 words, a large number of which can be said to have been borrowed from English. This is supposed to be an Encyclopedia, not a forum for pushing political agendas. :Read your own sources, to start with. User:Ejrrjs | User talk:Ejrrjs 20:53, 19 May 2005 (UTC) :Chinese is also more popular than Spanish.--User:Jondel 02:08, 19 May 2005 (UTC) Excluding Asia, is Spanish the most popular language? India is a significant bloc for English.--User:Jondel 00:13, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC) == States listing in the Infobox == from User:Marianocecowski : This has been a subject of many edits lately, and maybe it would be wiser to discuss it here. The different views seam to be the following (please add any needed): Spoken in: *A - By number of native speakers (Mexico, Colombia, Spain, Argentina, USA, and dozens of...) *B - By ''"importance"'' of the country's language influence (Spain, Mexico, Argentina, Colombia, USA, and dozens of...) *C - By minimalistic geographical coverage (Spain, Latin America, USA, and dozens of...) *D - By relevance to English speakers (this is, after all, en:WP): (Spain, Mexico, Argentina, etc., ''see Spanish_language#Geographic_distribution'') ===Votes=== *Option A: #More neutral. Compare "United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and others" on English language. User:Hajor 16:10, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC) #Concur with Hajor. Many nations have rich literature, i.e Chile and Pablo Neruda. It's POV to decide which is more imporant to the language. -User:JCarriker 16:40, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC) #Although I'd have no problem if "Option B" were to be applied, I am changing my vote to "Option A" after reading and agreeing with the short but straight statement made by User:JCarriker in his vote. User:Al-Andalus 08:06, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC). *Option B: #I think Spain should be in front. Maybe even remove USA, or replace it with Peru--User:Marianocecowski 11:25, 20 May 2005 (UTC) # Spain first (obviously), then the next three by number of speakers. — User:Chameleon 12:21, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC) #Spain first, then the next four by number of speakers. Include USA as non-trivial trivia. User:Ejrrjs | User talk:Ejrrjs 21:42, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC) *Option D: #The distribution is discussed at length in the article itself, and if people really want a detailed list, that's where they're going to go anyways. The language table is meant to be a quick guide, not an article of its own accord. User:TShilo12 ^{User talk:TShilo12} 07:12, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC) ===Comments=== *The push to include the USA in the list seems to me to be POV-pushing. While it's true that there are a significant number of hispanoparlantes in the EEUU, its influence pales in comparison to English language, which is actually a historically important language in Honduras, Nicaragua and Panam� (eventhough none of these countries are even mentioned at English_language#Geographic_distribution, and is culturally influential (moreso than Spanish in the US) throughout hispanoamerica, yet you'll notice that there is no big push to include any of those countries in the list of English speaking countries. That said, importance-wise, Spanish is clearly ''far'' more important in Venezuela or even Paraguay than in the US. The argument might be made that "well, English-speakers don't feel as oppressed" or whatever, but this is WP, not a clearinghouse for gripes. User:TShilo12 ^{User talk:TShilo12} 07:21, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC) *User:TShilo12: I agree with you, as I expressed it voting for B removing USA. Problem is that some poeple just undo edits without cheking the discussion pages. Even though little poeple voted, I think we have some consent on the ordering. The question of leaving USA out or not is, still to be resolved. We should wait a bit longer to decide on this, OK? Thanks, User:Marianocecowski 11:40, 2005 Jun 13 (UTC) *The reason I initially pushed for a list of the top 5 countries in numeric order, followed by a general comment, was that people made the exact same changes proposed by User:Marianocecowski; "''Maybe even remove USA, or replace it with Peru.''" That thinking of giving priority to one country because it has Spanish as an official language, in this case Peru, over another that doesn't but which happens to have more speakers than the first country, in this case the USA, is what initially caused the category box to be longer than the article itself; and in an order changed by the nationality of every new wikipedian modifying the list. This is especially true for Peru (which has Spanish as one of three official languages, with Quechua and Aymara), where despite Spanish being an official language, a great proportion of the population are Amerindian-speakers. That's when we had small population countries like Bolivia before large countries like Colombia, Cuba before Chile, Peru before Argentina, Costa Rica before Ecuador, and even the Philippines (with 3,000 Spanish-speakers amidst 107 million Austronesian-speaking Filipinos) but no mention of Belize or the USA (c. 30 million Spanish-speakers.) User:Al-Andalus 16:38, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC). *On a related note, may I mention that on the English language article, the "Spoken in" category is in the current format used on this article ("Option A"), that is by number of native speakers; United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and others. Notice United States is placed before United Kingdom because of numeric supremacy, the same format is currently used here, but the change wants to be made to "Option B" to place Spain first, and THEN the next four in numeric order. If the change is made to "Option B" (which I support, as long as it is maintained) then I would encourage the same changes to be made to the English language article. User:Al-Andalus 16:38, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC). *I don't think the number of speakers is so important. Otherwise we would put Colombia before Spain. If you'd like to compare this article to its English counterpart, please note that it's short list does not include India, where English is an official language, and a lot of people speaks it. I Consider the worldwide cultural influence of the country regarding the Spanish language. Therefore (and even I'm not Peruvian) I consider Peru to be culturally far more important in the Spanish speaking world since it gave the world writers such as Mario Vargas Llosa. But I wouldn't force Peru to the list, I just think that USA shouldn't be in the short list, because it's culturally not important to the Spanish language. User:Marianocecowski 08:03, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC) ::As a citizen of a country outside of the Americas, I would counter your argument that the United States is not culturally important to the Spanish language, and its diffusion around the world (at least as it perceived by the non-American citizens of the world). ::*You seem to be, at first glance, correct. US culture, and consequently, American English, is culturally pervasive throughout the Spanish-speaking world, although "leastmost" in Spain, where Spanish is spoken as a first language by only barely as many people as wild conjecture based on US Census data indicates it is spoken in the US. There's more to this, however, than first glances, and I don't believe, that you have begun to comprehend Mariano's point. I believe what he was attempting to convey is the ''very'' relevant point that Spanish, as a language spoken in the US, is utterly irrelevant to the influence the US has internationally, including in hispanoamerica. As a citizen of a country outside of the Americas, also apparently a non-Spanish speaker, I submit to you that your perception, at least as you've worded it, is completely without concrete basis. User:TShilo12 ^{User talk:TShilo12} 08:06, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC) ::I can almost guarantee you that the countries responsible for pushing the greatest influence in the spread (conscious or not) of the Spanish language towards the rest of the world are; Spain, Mexico, Argentina, Chile AND the United States of America. ::*Your ability to "almost guarantee" anything is hereby horribly suspect, since there are ''no'' countries "pushing the ... spread of the Spanish language". The ''only'' country that ''ever'' pushed the expansion Spanish was Spain, the international influence of which, already waning, came to a complete screeching crashing halt with the Spanish-American War, over a century ago. User:TShilo12 ^{User talk:TShilo12} 08:06, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC) :::Off topic: [http://www.cervantes.es/ Cervantes Institute] is a public organization created by Spain for promoting and teaching Spanish language and spreading Spanish and "Hispano-American" culture. User:Ejrrjs | User talk:Ejrrjs 19:06, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::The inclusion of four of these countries (Spain, Mexico, Argentina, Chile) is based largely on the great number of well-known literary contributions to the world in that language, more so than any other Spanish-speaking countries. Added to this is the fact that three of those countries (Spain, Mexico, Argentina) also contribute largely to international cinema, viewed and associated with the Spanish language by millions of non-Spanish speakers. Finally, in the modern globolised world that we live in, the most important and consciously significant medium by which Spanish is diffused today (purposefully or not) is by television. ::*Wonderful. So why, pray tell, do you insist on pushing for the inclusion of the US?User:TShilo12 ^{User talk:TShilo12} 08:06, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC) ::The contributions made by the medium of television (which has been primarily important across the English-speaking world) is arguably the greatest and most important that the Spanish language has ever had in its linguistic and cultural diffusion, as recognised by your average citizen of the world. The large Hispanic population of the US (the largest minority) has consequently lead to the inclusion of their ethnicity, culture and language in the plots, characters and discourse in the vast majority of programming. As such, after English, Spanish is a language commonly associated (by non-American English-speakers) with the United States. This should be no surprise. In an English-speaking country (Australia as an example) television content can be well over 70% American produced, and most Spanish is introduced via this medium. Programmes such as CSI, NYPD, Desperate Housewives, Oprah, flood television viewing time slots, which is why Australian broadcasting laws dictate at least 25%[?] of content be Australian produced. ::*Your first sentence is characteristically (for you) incomprehensible. It is full of English words, but its structure is so mangled that by the time you get to the end of it, those of us who actually speak English are left wondering "wtf are you talking about?!" The "large Hispanic population of the US" is a census bureau category, and living in the US, I can tell you, there are a great many Hispanics whose Spanish is even worse than your English, if they speak any Spanish beyond "gringo" and "no". The census bureau's definition of "Hispanic" is even looser than the UN's definition of "Palestinian". BTW, "lead", pronounced "led", is an element, Pb. The word you're looking for is "led". That said, "Hispanic" includes a number of hispanoparlante ethnicities. Your horribly-worded assertion "The large Hispanic population of the US (the largest minority) has consequently lead to the inclusion of their ethnicity, culture and language in the plots, characters and discourse in the vast majority of programming" is almost completely meaningless...and what little meaning as ''can'' be gleaned from it is unequivocally false! If you Ozzies associate Spanish with the US, especially as a result of your being swamped by American TV shows, that's a sign of Ozzie ignorance, not of the influence of Spanish on American Culture, or more relevantly, of Spanish spoken in the US' importance vis � vis Hispanoparlante culture in the rest of the world. CSI:Miami and NYPD Blue happen to be based in two of the 3 largest urban concentrations of hispanics in the US, and are completely unrepresentative of US culture, even US urban culture. Desperate Housewives and Oprah are unspeakably irrelevant to this discussion, as is the makeup of Australian television broadcasts.User:TShilo12 ^{User talk:TShilo12} 08:06, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC) ::As a matter of fact, if you were to ask a person at random the following question ''What countries would you associate the Spanish language with?'', in an Australian reply most would answer Spain (for obvious reason), then Chile and Argentina (these two constitute most of Australia's Hispanic population) and THEN the United States of America before any other country. This very inclusion of the USA before another Spanish-speaking country is because of the role television plays in the modern world and its perceptions. As already stated, television programming for the English-speaking world comes largely from the USA. Most references to "Hispanic culture" and the greatest exposure and awareness to Spanish (in words, phrases, etc. used by Hispanic characters on US programmes) comes from American produced television, which highly influences the association of that language with the contemporary United States. ::*Great. Since the US is utterly irrelevant, as mentioned above, let's just leave it at 3 countries then...especially since the US is already mentioned, along with every other fracking place in the world with at least 3 spanish-speakers, later on in the article. I would submit to you that the inclusion of the US has more to do with Australian ignorance of the rest of the world, since that's what you're describing, than with any comparative importance of the US when it comes to a description of the importance of Spanish. User:TShilo12 ^{User talk:TShilo12} 08:06, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC) ::Your average non-American in an English-speaking country (unfortunately quite ignorant to extra-cultural knowledge) would be hard pressed to know places by the names of Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay, Nicaragua or Honduras even exist, nor would they know what languages are spoken there, and much less would they associate these countries with the Spanish language. But they would definitely know the United States, they would also know that the largest proportion of Americans after "non-Hispanic Whites" are Hispanics (as seen and taught by TV) and that the language spoken by Hispanics is Spanish, thus associating the USA with Spanish. User:Al-Andalus 04:05, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC). ::*Your wanton hubris in pretending to speak for the average non-American is breathtaking (but not surprising anymore). If people really don't know of places such as Per�, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay, Nicaragua and Honduras, that's pretty sad. That said, however, your idea that we should be stooping to the lowest common denominator is in direct conflict with the ideology that drives the entire Wikipedia project. This isn't Funk and Wagnalls for First Graders, nor Dumbed Down World Encyclopedia. User:TShilo12 ^{User talk:TShilo12} 08:06, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC) :::Hold on a second, we should include USA because the ''ignorants'' think its important? I thought this was trying to be an Encyclopedia... -User:Marianocecowski 07:28, 2005 Jun 15 (UTC) To those who voted A, on comments about English language: Let me remind you that not even in that page people agree on the Population scheme. UK is still in the first place. (At list right now) .-User:Marianocecowski 09:04, 2005 Jun 17 (UTC) == USA or not USA == Guys, I suggest we cool down a bit, and lower the tone of the argument. I believe User:Al-Andalus has not successfully showed the importance of including USA in the short list of countries where Spanish is spoken. Wether other countries deserve to be there or not seams to be secondary, as most of us would prefer to have only Spain, Mexico, Argentina and Colombia. I trust we will find a solution in a civiliced way, and that we can all keep open to a different opinion. -User:Marianocecowski 10:35, 2005 Jun 15 (UTC) :As Mariano implied before, an encyclopedia should attempt to enlighten the reader, not to conform to its preconceptions and likely associations. It is very possible that people around the globe associate Spanish with the USA because there are a lot of Hispanics in US TV shows, but this is an artifact of demographics and the media. "References to Hispanic culture" in the US may be abundant, but outside the US "Hispanic culture" means "what American TV shows Latinos doing, even if their Spanish is horrible", i. e. unrepresentative regarding Spanish-language culture. Also, this... ''"The contributions made by the medium of ''(English-speaking)'' television ... is arguably the greatest and most important that the Spanish language has ever had"''. Hello? Miguel de Cervantes? Jorge Luis Borges? Mario Vargas Llosa? Gabriel Garc�a M�rquez? --User:Pablo-flores 11:16, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::User:Pablo-flores, I stand by my statement ''"The contributions made by the medium of ''(English-speaking)'' television ... is arguably the greatest and most important that the Spanish language has ever had"''. The only thing I will clarify about this statement is that it is meant in the sense that it is the most important medium Spanish has ever had among the masses, among your average joe who gets most of his knoweladge from modern visual/audio media, not among the educated, literate people such as yourself. I do understand your immediate questioning of great literary authors such as "''Miguel de Cervantes? Jorge Luis Borges? Mario Vargas Llosa? Gabriel Garc�a M�rquez?''" but I was speaking of the average person. Like it or not, most people hardly ever pick up a book, much less of such literary greatness as those produced by the authors you have quoted. It is educated people like you (not sarcasm) that know such authors, and educated people like you that have the brains to associate the Spanish language with said authors. However, to the worlds's misfurtune, most people aren't as interested in reading books as you, and therefore they take what little they know from visual media such as movies and TV. User:Al-Andalus 15:17, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC). :::I'm not sure you actually understand what we are trying to tell you. English speaking television can only give a cultural stereotype of the Spanish speaker (probably Mexican) and it has nothing to do neither with the Spanish language nor with the importance of the language in USA towards the world. I don't consider ''No problemo'' to be Spanish language influence. Again, it's of an Encyclopedia to clarify what people misconceives. -User:Marianocecowski 09:15, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC) ::::In fact, it might be more than simply misconception. See this page on [http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US8/SPAN/mockspan.html Mock Spanish]. I'm not implying that every American TV series denigrates Hispanics or the Spanish language (though I think the abundance of Latinos is suspicious - in many cases it's obvious that token Hispanics are just a recent addition to the already compulsory token Blacks and token gays on TV). What we are saying is that the kind of "Spanish influence" being talked about is not the kind exerted by a maid called Rosita or a policeman called Carlos or Bart Simpson saying "Caramba" on American TV. This is exotic flavouring or mock Spanish or a crude attempt at showing ethnic tolerance, but not Spanish language culture (only American culture that employs Spanish). --User:Pablo-flores 14:03, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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