
Sathya Sai Baba (born Sathya Narayana Raju with the family name Ratnakaram, circa 1926-1929) is a popular, controversial India guru who has millions of followers and hundreds of Sathya Sai Baba groups in many countries. When he was in his teens he claimed to be the reincarnation of the fakir Shirdi Sai Baba and subsequently took the fakir's name. He says that he is an ''avatar'' (incarnation) of Shiva and Shakti and an embodiment of love with divinity powers such as omniscience and omnipotence. He is said to manifest ''vibuthi'' (holy ash) and small objects like rings and watches daily. He claims to materialization these objects out of nothing, which has yet to stand up to scientific scrutiny. He preaches a foundation of five basic values: Truth, Right Conduct, Peace, Love and Non-violence. He teaches the unity of all major world religion and says that they all lead to God. His followers and the organizations that he has founded are involved in many charity projects, providing free modern hospitals and water projects serving thousands in the Indian state of Andhra Pradesh and the city of Chennai (Madras). In his ashram and around it there are various buildings including a University and a World Religions Museum. He has founded schools all over India. Critics, including Rationalism Sanal Edamaruku, ex-follower turned skeptic Skepticism Basava Premanand and the pianist David Bailey claim that these materializations are done by sleight of hand, which they say can be verified with video movies available on the internet. They also claim that he has inappropriate sexual relations with young men and boys. Testimonies of these sexual abuses are available on the internet. Another point of criticism is the unresolved killings of four men in in Sai Baba's private quarters in 1993. ==History and origins== See ''Main article History and origins of the Sathya Sai Baba movement'' When the boy Sathya Narayana Raju, born in or near the village Puttaparthi, was in his teens, he claimed to be the reincarnation of the fakir Sai Baba who was not well known in that area at that time. In the late 1960s the guru attracted Western spiritual seekers. The number of adherents fell in and after the year 2000 in Scandinavia and the Netherlands due to negative publicity and testimonies by ex-followers such as the Wales musician David Bailey. ==Teachings== ''Main article Beliefs and practices in the Sathya Sai Organisation'' Primary teachings are: *Love - for all creatures. *Service - to others. *Put a ceiling on one's desires. *The world is Maya (Hinduism) (illusion), only God is real. *Every person is God in form, though most do not experience this as their reality. *Meditation - Baba teaches two techniques, ''so ham'' (Upanishadic mantra for repetition and focus) and ''jyoti'' (Light meditation). *Inclusive acceptance of all religions as paths to realizing the One (God). *Ahimsa (non-violence), Shanti (peace), dharma (right conduct, living in accord with natural law), and satya (truth). *Importance of bhakti (devotion) to God and japa and other sadhana (spiritual excercise) to foster this devotion ==Practices== [[Image:Sarva Dharma Symbol.jpg|Sarva Dharma Symbol.jpg|thumb|right|175px|The Sarva Dharma logo (all religions symbol) that shows the unity of all religions and is the old symbol for the Sathya Sai Organisation ]] His popularity (despite opponents, see section below) and the donations by followers have enabled Sathya Sai Baba and his organizations to build an increasingly large ashram near the once poor and isolated village of Puttaparthi. Sathya Sai Baba resides much of the time in his main ''ashram'' called ''Prashanthi Nilayam'' (abode of peace) at Puttaparthi. In the hot summer the guru leaves for his other ashram called ''Brindavan'' in Whitefield, India (sometimes called Kadugodi), a town on the outskirts of Bangalore. He has left India only once for a visit to Uganda in 1968. He is regarded by some as an excellent orator in his native language Telugu, and also speaks passable Tamil. He claims to be the ''Kali Yuga'' ''purna avatar'' (full divine incarnation of this era) of Lord Shiva and Shakti. He says that he is omniscient, omnipotent, able to create matter from mere thought. He also stresses he is free from desires. He preaches love and the unity of all religions. Sai Baba claims to be pure divine love. Baba asserts that he is an avatar of God, and a reincarnation of Lord Rama, of Sri Krishna, and of Shirdi Sai Baba. Many of his followers say that he is the primary avatar of our times. He has repeatedly claimed to be the actual reincarnation of Vishnu, Rama, Krishna, Kabir and other famous figures of Indian mythology. Sathya Sai Baba can be seen in person performing what he claims are miracles daily in the form of materializations of small objects, for example jewelry such as bracelets, rings, watches and especially ''vibhuti'' (holy ash) and kum kum. He says that he can faith healer diseases of his devotees sometimes by his spiritual power and sometimes by taking on the disease himself. There is anecdotal evidence that supports this claim. Followers attribute many miracles to him which they have witnessed in his presence and in their own countries, such as spontaneous vibhuti manifestations on the pictures of the guru in their homes, and bilocation the appearance of Sai Baba in their own presence while he is also in another place. Followers also report that he has materialized out-of-season fruit several times. He says he performs these miracles to attract people and then to transform them spirituality. He teaches a rather traditional but syncretism form of Hinduism that has come from many sect and movements including ''advaita'', occasionally drawing from other religions like Buddhism, Sikhism, and Christianity. In spite of his claim to be a reincarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba, a spiritual leader who blended Islam and Hinduism in his teachings, he teaches no Muslim rituals. The only real Christian influence can be felt in the institution of regular Sunday School sessions for devotees. He says that he has come to restore faith in, and encourage the practice of the teachings in the Vedas. Several books and discourses by him, such as the book ''Ramakatha Rasavahinï'' advocate the literal truth of Hindu mythology. One important practice in his ashrams is ''darshan'' (spiritual sight). During ''darshan'' Sathya Sai Baba walks among his followers. He may listen to a few chosen persons, accept letters, or materialize and distribute ''vibhuti'' (sacred ash of Lord Shiva). Sathya Sai Baba claims that his '' darshan'' has spiritual benefits for those who attend it. Usually people wait hours to get a good place for ''darshan''. Sathya Sai Baba sometimes invites people for a group interview with him in a room in the 'ashram's 'mandir' (Hindu temple). Followers consider it a great privilege to get such an interview. Sometimes a person from this group is invited for a private interview. Across the globe local Sathya Sai Baba groups assemble to sing ''bhajan'' (Hindu devotional songs), study Sathya Sai Baba's teachings, do collective community service (called ''seva''), and teach ''Education in Human Values'' (Sai ''Sunday School''). His followers generally do not proselytize. Bhajans are sung at nearly every meeting with the names of the traditional Hindu deities occasionally replaced by Baba's name. Several testimonies seem to indicate that he or she can change into a woman instanteneously. These puzzling testimonies has led some to the conclusion that Baba is a intersexual. Alexandra Nagel has argued in her 1994 Dutch language article ''De Sai Paradox/The Sai Paradox'' and her 2001 article ''Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or?'' that this sex change may be related to Baba's claim to be the incarnation of both the male and female aspects of God, Shiva and Shakti respectively. ==Organizations== [[Image:SSIHL.jpg|thumb|right|175px|Building of the Sri Sathya Sai Institute of higher learning ]] He has founded a number of educational institutions and charitable hospitals, most notably the Sri Sathya Sai Institute of higher learning and the Sri Sathya Institute of Higher Medicine, located within or near the main ashrams and Anantapur town. [8] These organizations seek to provide free education and health care to the public. They are private institutions and their admission criteria are not published, admissions being decided on individual merits as decided by Sai Baba or his executives. Many of the patients are devotees from India and abroad. The trust organization has made large contributions to drinking water projects for the whole of the Anantapur district in Andhra Pradesh and Chennai. His Educare (formerly called Education in Human Values) programme seeks to found schools in all countries with the explicit goal to educate children in the five human values and spirituality. Schools have already been founded in Canada Toronto, Zambia, Australia, the United States, and several in India. As all these operations are public. Critics of these institutions and their figurehead online often use that information to email nearby citizens of what they see as a danger. A projected college in Denmark was stopped by local residents who objected to the Sai Organisations as a cult, having seen the film "Seduced by Sai Baba" as broadcast repeatedly on Danish national TV. [[image:Sathya_Sai_Organisation_official_logo.jpg|thumb|right|175px|The new official logo of the Sathya Sai Organisation ]] All the local ''Sai Samithis'' (Sathya Sai Baba groups) are part of a hierarchical structure called the Sathya Sai Organisation. The chairman of the organisation is Michael Goldstein of the USA. The logo of the Sathya Sai organization is a stylized lotus flower with the text of the so-called five human values, highly influenced by not only Hinduism but also Jainism and Buddhism, in its petals. These values are ''satya'' (truth), ''dharma'' (right conduct), ''ahimsa'' (non-violence), ''prema'' (love) and ''shanti'' (peace). This text version has replaced the old logo with the symbols of the 5 or 6 world religions in the petals. The Sri Sathya Sai central trust was founded in 1972 and is mainly involved in charities such as the Rayalaseema water project. The trust has tax exempt status and is a major recipient of donations from abroad though Baba and his organizations occasionally explicitly solicit donations. All donations and expenditures are allegedly a matter of record which are legally documented by the bank holding the sums. The Sri Sathya Sai Books and Publications Trust is the official publisher of the ''Sathya Sai Organisation''. It publishes the international monthly magazine called Sanathana Sarathi. In various nations similar publication trusts maintain in their own native language. == Sceptics and opponents== ''Main article Allegations against Sathya Sai Baba'' Sceptics say claims about Sai Baba are unproven or false. They say that his “miracles” are performed by sleight of hand; his devotees have imagined his bilocation “appearances”; his reincarnation claims are dubious and unverified; his teachings are unoriginal, often mere platitudes and unremarkable; and that his charity projects are exaggerated, and in part, a front for money-laundering and other personal gain of the coterie of the top of the organizations who know the Baba to be a cheater. In 1993 four people who were armed with knives were killed after they had intruded in Sai Baba's bedroom. The main body of Indian journalists investigating the ashram murders in 1993 were unable to obtain more than very sparse information on the Central Trust's accounts and dealings. The drinking water projects were claimed to be the result of Sai Baba's "Divine Will". However, they have largely failed to function in most of the villages due to a sinking water table, contractor corruption, and failure to arrange for maintenance. Due to this, the Rayalaseema project had to be taken over by the Andhra Pradesh State government. Some ex-devotees including the American Glen Meloy accuse him of being a cult leader who uses mind control, and propaganda and who has created a personality cult. Other critics say that school records revealed several different birth dates for the boy (under his original name Sathyanarayana Raju) and suggest that he invented the 23 November, 1926 day of birth because on 24 November, 1926 the famed Hindu philosopher-mystic Sri Aurobindo said that the Divine had descended on Earth. Another critic, ex-devotee and retired researcher/lecturer in philosophy, University of Oslo, the former national coordinator of the organization in Norway, Robert Priddy, has pointed out that Sathya Sai Baba's assertions on many subjects exhibit basic ignorance of physics, geology, history of religion and much more. For example, Sai Baba's 'teaching' on magnetism differs greatly from generally accepted science, being wholly incommensurate with many simple and basic known facts. Additionally, the Australia ex-follower and scholar Brian Steel has documented strong indications that the original Telugu discourses by Baba have been heavily edited to improve them. Followers were given the impression, if not explicitly told, that the discourses published in the Sathya Sai Speaks series were the literal translation of what the guru said. Steel also wrote that many authors who wrote or still write positive books about Baba did not fulfill their responsibility of adherence to basic intellectual, journalistic and scholarly standards and hence may unintentionally misguide both followers and the general public. He contends that the claims of Baba about himself fluctuate and are inconsistent. He has recently discovered a trend to tone down the extraordinary claims that the guru makes about himself which Steel thinks is done to avoid embarrassment and loss of credibility. There are also critics who allege that he has sexual relations with young men and boys among his followers, and has done so for more than forty years. No Indian court of law has accepted any case on sexual abuse by Baba. Nor have any of the alleged victims filed charges in the appropriate district. This may be due to the perceived status of the Baba as being too powerful, with supporters throughout the High Courts and the judiciary in India. Besides there is a testimony by Jens Senthi who claimed to have been sexually abused by the Baba but who was treated as a criminal by the Puttaparthi police. Supporters of Baba say the allegations are baseless rumor created with the malicious intention of sabotaging the guru's work. Top official of the Sathya Sai Organisation's Central Coordinator of Europe, Thorbjørn Meyer, have confirmed in public that Sai Baba regularly takes down boys and young men's trousers and oils their genitals. This is an illegal act, also done without consent. Much worse abuses are described by dozens of young men in affidavits, also published widely on the internet and backed up by filmed testimonies in films, including ''"Seduced by Sai Baba"'' by Denmark's national television, ''"Guru Busters"'' by UK's Channnel 4, both featuring arch critic and Rationalism Sanal Edamaruku and documentary film ''"Secret Swami"'' by BBC. The TV documentary "''Seduced By Sai Baba''", produced by Denmark's national television and radio broadcaster Danmarks Radio aired in Denmark, Australia and Norway. The Danish jounalist Ojvind Kyro who was involved in the production of the documentary asserts, as published in Robert Priddy's book "The End of the Dream", that he has in his possession ten signed affidavits of young men from around the globe who claim to have been seriously sexually abused by SSB. He writes that these affidavits are open to see for official investigators and accredited journalists but not for the public. Critics include Rationalism Sanal Edamaruku, the Welsh ex-devotee musician David Bailey who compiled “The Findings” in the year 2000, and ex-devotee turned sceptic Basava Premanand ("Lure of miracles" and "Divine Octopus") [10]. ===The media and governments=== [[Image:HospitalEntrance.jpg|thumb|right|175px| Hospital Entrance of Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Medical Sciences, Puttaparthi ]] Several media articles have appeared on the guru. ''The Sunday Telegraph'' of Britain published "Divine Downfall" in October 2000, a well-researched article reporting interviews with one of SSB's closest associates and alleged sexual partners, Dr. N. Bhatia, formerly employed in the SSB Super-Speciality hospital. Dr. Bhatia stated that an underage student he examined had been raped by Sai Baba and that he had confronted him about it. Directly thereafter Dr. Bhatia was accused of fraud and sexual offences and forced to leave his work and the ashram. Dr. Bhatia, like several former devotees, had written a very positive book about Sai Baba without mentioning any sexual allegations. Many devotees feel that persons who change their story regarding their initial account cannot possibly be credible. While making allegations Dr. Bhatia, who is married, at the same time still admitted he believed Sai Baba is God and has divine powers. The article was republished in other papers [http://www.saiguru.net/english/media/001028divine.htm]. One of the more important critical articles was a front page article in the nationwide India Today magazine called "''A God accused''" on 4 December, 2000. In December 2002 the New York Times published a rather positive article on the guru without mentioning the allegations at all. [28] There have also been numerous positive articles about Sai Baba as well as articles he has written in Indian papers. The Indian President Abdul Kalam and the former Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee visit the ashram and pay respect to the guru. Vajpayee has written a letter which is published on the internet, also signed by two former Supreme Court Justices, expressing that Sathya Sai Baba is innocent of sexual molestations and that the accusations are concocted and malicious. [32] Sceptics are confused as to whether Vajpayee's signed statement is based on government information not made available to the public. But it was made clear during the recent documentary, "Secret Swami" that the Indian government has taken the position that the allegations against Sai Baba are false. Questions have been asked in the Parliament of the United Kingdom about the suicide of a British young man who a friend claims told him he was sexually abused by the guru. The young man had HIV, and overdosed on the painkiller commonly known as Tylenol. Since the alleged victim is deceased the accusation is hearsay and cannot be taken as evidence in a court of law. One Member of Parliament has expressed concern about the alleged indoctrination of children by devotees who volunteer at public schools and propagate the ''Educare''/''Education in Human Values'' teachings. The European Commission answered a question of a member of the European Parliament about the accusations of sexual abuse of childeren on October 1, 2001. [http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat/2002/ce093/ce09320020418en01260126.pdf] The United States Department of State has issued a travel warning about a "prominent local religious leader" under the section Andhra Pradesh without mentioning Sathya Sai Baba explicitly. Since about June 2004 embassy or consulate staff in India confirm that they referred to Sathya Sai Baba in the travel warning. The warning was placed as a result of the notarized petitions by several alleged victims even though they have never filed formal charges in India. The BBC TWO documentary ''Secret Swami'' showed two American men under their real names who testified about Sathya Sai Baba's sexual abuse when they were still young and his manipulation of them. The former secretary of the Home minister of Andhra Pradesh, V.P.B. Nair who came from of a police background expressed his firm belief that the four assailants in 1993 had unnecessarily and illegally been shot by the police. Both Premanand and Nair wanted the case to be re-opened and believed that it had been silenced to prevent revelations about illegal practices by Sathya Sai Baba and his organizations. In the documentary, Premanand showed that he could perform, seemingly the same acts, or at least some of them, as Sathya Sai Baba that the latter claims to be miracles. Dr. Michael Goldstein, International Chairman of the ''Sri Sathya Sai Organisations'', stated in the documentary that it was against his "heart and conscience" to initiate or approve of a proper legal process to investigate the allegations against Sathya Sai Baba. Isaac Tigrett, a prominent follower and co-founder of the Hard Rock Cafe, states clearly that his admiration for the guru will not change even if the charges of paedophilia and murder were proved beyond all doubt. ==Views on the guru== Some ex-followers believe in the truth of the allegations but at the same time refuse to retract the stories of miracle that they claim to have experienced directly, for example answers to prayers which they attribute to him or clairvoyance during an interview. Hence quite a lot of ex-followers believe that while he has ''siddhis'' (psychic abilities) it is only because he is a powerful rakshasa or demon. Other ex-followers such as David Bailey and Hari Sampath, an Indian national, consider Baba a cheat and believe that some of the miracles are real but are mistakenly attributed to Sathya Sai Baba. They believe that when a follower prays to Baba while having faith that he is God, God will listen to his prayer, in spite of his mistaken belief. Sceptics such as Premanand believe him to be an out and out cheater and charlatan while his followers are but gullible at worst, naïve at best, and are all suffering from the ''true-believer syndrome '' (belief in supernatural explanations for events caused by wishful thinking in spite of proof of natural explanations). Tal Brooke, an American evangelical Christian who says his book about Sai Baba was banned in India sees him as a false prophet and an Antichrist, as predicted in the Bible. Anti-cult movements consider Baba just one of many cult leaders, though an exceptionally successful one, with the usual sexual abuse, false claims about himself, false miracles, propaganda, mind control, and misappropriation of funds to enrich the coterie at the top of the organization. Finally, the view of the followers on the guru is identical to the claims made by Baba about himself. They believe that the allegations are just passing clouds that have accompanied the lives of all avatars that are part of the leelas of his life. Some followers say that the allegations have been made by people who are criminals themselves and try to distract people from that fact by instead accusing Baba of being a criminal. Some followers believe that the allegations that Baba performs acts that can be interpreted as sexually intended are true but that he must have good reasons for them, like helping the young men with sexual problems or to awaken their kundalini. Tigrett believes the allegations are true but is at a loss to explain them saying that Sai Baba is an enigma. ==Books by Sai Baba or by his followers== (Note: Hundreds of English language book titles have been written by Sai Baba and his followers) *Goldthwait, John “Purifying the Heart” (2002) ISBN 81-7208-339-4 *Guillemin, Madeleine “Who is in the Driving Seat?” (2000) ISBN 0-9583617-0-3 *Hislop, John ''My Baba and I'' ISBN 81-7208-050-6 *Kasturi, Narayana ''Sathyam Sivam Sundaran Part I, II, III & IV'' [http://satya-sai.tripod.com/literature/resources.htm available online in Microsoft Word format] *Krystal, Phyllis “The Ultimate Experience” ISBN 81-7208-038-7 *Mazzoleni Don Mario ''A Catholic Priest Encounters Sai Baba'' *Murphet, Howard ''Man of Miracles'' (1971) 0333-91770-7 *Priddy, Robert “'Source of the Dream'” (1998) ISBN 1-57863-028-2 *Sandweiss, Samuel H. ''The holy man ..... and the psychiatrist'' (1975) ISBN 0-9600958-1-0 *Sandweiss, Samuel H “Spirit and the Mind” (1985) ISBN 81-7208-056-5 *Thomas, Joy “Life is a Game – Play it” ISBN 81-7208-175-8 *Sathya Sai Baba [http://www.saibabalinks.org/booksaibaba.htm Many online books] *Schulman, Arnold ''Baba'' (1971) Out of print but available in some public libraries == Books by sceptics and critics == *Beyerstein, Dale Dr. (1994) ''Sai Baba's miracles: an overview'' [http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex_baba/engels/articles/p_holbach/dbbooke/cont.htm available online] *Brooke, Tal ''Avatar of the Night'' [http://www.scp-inc.org/president/index.php] *Basava Premanand ''The Murders in Sai Baba's bedroom'' *Priddy, Robert ''The End of the Dream'' published and edited by Basava Premanand ==Other books== *Brown, Mick ''The Spiritual Tourist'' (1998), chapter 4 ''In The House of God'' ISBN 1-58234-034-X Bloomsbury Publising *Haraldsson, Erlendur PhD ''Miracles are my visiting cards - An investigative inquiry on Sathya Sai Baba, an Indian mystic with the gift of foresight believed to perform modern miracles'' (1997 revised and updated edition) ISBN 81-86822-32-1 *[http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/sbresearchbib1.htm Annoted research bibliography in three parts] part 1, Items of a scholarly or academic nature or provenance, collected by Brian Steel *[http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/sbresearchbib2.htm Annoted research bibliography in three parts] part 2, Work Critical of SSB and his Mission by non-devotees (including ex-devotees), collected by Brian Steel *[http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/sbresearchbib3.htm Annotated research bibliography in three parts] part 3, A Basic Bibliography of Works about Sathya Sai Baba by the SSO and his Devotees, collected by Brian Steel ==External links== ===Official websites and websites of followers=== *[http://www.sathyasai.org/ Sathya Sai Official Web Site (has Baba's discourses, Baba's voice singing Gayatri and bhajans)] *[http://www.radiosai.org/journals/Vol_03/Index.htm/ Radiosai Monthly journal on Sri Sathya Sai Baba] **[http://www.sathyasai.org/intro/cults.htm Detailed rebuttal of the cult allegation from official website] *[http://www.saibabalinks.org/saibaba.htm/ Saibabalinks, a website with exhaustive number of links to teachings of Sathya Sai Baba, service activites, miracles etc ] *[http://www.sathyasaibaba.org/ SathyaSaiBaba.org] *[http://www.psychics.co.uk/saibaba/homepage.html Sathya Sai Baba] *[http://www.einterface.net/gamini/threesai.html Three Sai Baba] *[http://www.primalspirit.com/marylynn1_1baba.htm Sathya Sai Baba, Avatar] *[http://www.sathyasai.org/inform/tustin.htm#tustin.contents American book center] *[http://www.eaisai.com/baba/ USA based unofficial website of followers] *[http://www.angeltowns.com/members/tanik/PREMSAI.htm Internet copy of unedited discourses, some links do not work] *[http://www.vahini.org/downloads free downloads of over 30 books] *[http://www.eaisai.com/baba free downloads of Baba's lectures] *[http://www.radiosai.org/Pages/Thought.asp Thought for the Day, written by Baba] *[http://music.sshvosc.org/ Collection of Bhajan songs] *[http://www.journeywithsai.com/ Site of Sathya Sai Society, Telok Blangah] *[http://www.kingdomofsai.org/ Kingdomofsai, a website with Audio downloads and other materials] *[http://www.osaibaba.com/ Site of San Francisco Sai Team] *[http://www.saibaba.ws/ Saibaba.ws, a website with Videoclips, Miracle Stories, Experiences, Service Activities, Discourses] *[http://www.saibabaforbeginners.com/ Saibabaforbeginers, a website meant for beginers about Sri Sathya Sai Baba] *[http://www.saibabaofindia.com/ SaibabaofIndia, a private site dedicated to Sri Sathya Sai Baba] *[http://www.saibhajans.net/ Saibhajans, a website with large collections of Bhajans, Mantras, Discourses etc. Require Registration] *[http://http://laluni.helloyou.ws/askbaba/ AskBaba, a website with downloadable books, informative guides ot Prasanthi Nilayam etc] *[http://www.lordsaibaba.com/ Saionline, a website with MP3, video downloads, life history of Sathya Sai Baba etc] *[http://www.sathyasaibaba.org/media.htm/ Website with high resolution photographs] *[http://www.saicast.org/ Saicast, a website for streaming videos] ===Websites of critical former followers, skeptics and other critics=== *[http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/ Concerned former Dutch devotees of Sathya Sai Baba] Extensive website that contains scholarly studies and videos of alleged materializations *[http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/ Robert Priddy's extensive website about the Sathya Sai Baba and the Sathya Sai organisation] *[http://home.chello.no/~reirob/ Myths promoted by Sathya Sai Baba] another wesbite by Robert Priddy *[http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/index.html Brian Steel's scholarly website about Sathya Sai Baba] *[http://www.saiguru.net/english/ Allegations concerning Sathya Sai Baba] Multi lingual critical website of ex-followers *[http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/ Sai Baba and The Field of Righteousness] ex-follower's critical website, not maintained since 2001 *[http://www.indian-skeptic.org/html/is_v12/12-4-12.htm Anonymous letter to B. Premanand about sexual abuse of young men and boys, “Betrayal” by SSB (1998)] *[http://www.apologeticsindex.org/s11.html Anton Hein's apologetics index] *[http://www.skepdic.com/saibaba.html Sai Baba] Robert Todd Carrol's skeptic dictionary *[http://www.saipetition.net Public petition for official investigations of Sathya Sai Baba and his worldwide organizations] internet petition founded by concerned ex-followers ===Other articles and websites=== *[http://www.dci.dk/?artikel=572&emne=Sai%20Baba Guru, Miracle Worker, Religious Founder: Sathya Sai Baba] long article by Dr. Reinhart Hummel on the website of the Dialog Center (1984) ===Media articles=== *[http://www.saiguru.net/english/news/021201nytafriend.htm A Friend in India to All the World] article in the New York Times by journalist Keith Bradsher December 1, 2002 *[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/3813469.stm Sai Baba: God-man or con man?] short BBC article discussing Basava Premanand's battle against SSB and announcing its 2004 TV documentary ''Secret Swami'' *[http://home.chello.no/~reirob/Bitten.htm "I lost the desire to live" B. N. was a follower of Sai Baba for 17 years] article by Bettina Vilmun, translated from the Danish daily national newspaper B.T. (tabloid) (January 312002) *[http://archive.salon.com/people/feature/2001/07/25/baba/index.html Untouchable? Sai Baba: Pedophile or God incarnate?] Michelle Golberg's major article in salon.com online magazine (2001) *[http://www.saiguru.net/english/media/001028divine.htm Divine Downfall] Mick Brown's article about the sexual abuse allegations in The Telegraph newspaper UK (Oct. 2000) *[http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/engels/witnesses/frameset.html?page=matthijs ‘The truth will prevail...’ a Sai-devotee’s struggle for disenchantment] by Matthijs van der Meer, originally published in the Dutch New Age magazine ''Spiegelbeeld'' October issue 2000 ===Rebuttals of criticisms=== *[http://www.saibaba-aclearview.com/ SAI BABA and SEX: A Clear View] Ram Das Awle's attempt to reconcile the allegations with the claims of Sathya Sai Baba *[http://www.geocities.com/the_sai_critic/ Follower's response to the allegations] ===Comments and criticisms of this article=== *Steel, Brian [http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/sbresearchbib2.htm] "''An interesting and serious attempt to present a balanced picture of SSB. However, this long article is a good illustration of the strengths and weaknesses of Wiki digests and of its philosophy of Free Content (allowing use by anyone and editing by anyone) since, although both 'sides' are represented in this case [..], some sections of the Wiki essay are in a constant state of flux as supporters and critics of SSB vie for supremacy for their point of view, with occasional injections of propaganda and malice.''" 1926 births Sathya Sai Baba Indian religious figures Intersexual Purported telepaths Purported psychokineticists
Sathya Sai Baba is Love. If you don´t like Sai Baba, please keep the Love. Testing --- thats a wonderful quote, whoever has written it here (above). As Sri Sathya Sai Baba says there is a need to have capacity to receive Love too. Lets pray to Him that the ignorant over here will soon have the capacity to receive Love from all. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------- --- It has been a couple of weeks since i have suggested certain changes under the title "SOME SUGGESTIONS" in the page but the changes haven't been done. Please update the changes as soon as possible. I did not update the changes as i did not want to interfere with the "objectivity" of the page. --- SOME SUGGESTIONS 1. In External links, please add not just discussion groups where "pornographic and abusive language" are used, but give links to discussion group on Sri Sathya Sai Baba, where discussions on Love, Service and Compassion are done. There are many such discussion groups, am sure you are aware of that. Please add at least some of those into the listings. 2. Websites of followers are very short as compared to Websites of critics. So you need to update these listings. I can give you a minimum of 50 website URLs if you request them. 3. References - Links should not be primarily slanted anti-SSB. There should be positive thoughts too in the section, qualitatively and quantitatively. 4. In books for Sai Baba, please give the link to Sri Sathya Sai Books and Publications Trust. 5. In the section on Media and government, the selection has only been partial. There are hundreds of articles which are appearing in everyday newspapers speaking about SSB in an objective angle, yet not slanted and negative. You need to take all those things into consideration. You can go to websites of many of Indian publications and you will get data on the same. Don't just restrict to India Today, who used the whole issue as a marketing issue for their anniversary celebration. SSB on front cover will obviously attract attention. 6. There is a necessity to revamp sections like 'history and origins', 'teachings', 'practices', 'organisations' etc. 7. Try getting primary data on SSB rather than secondary data. A operations researcher/statistician/scientist/analyst will tell you the importance of primary data as compared to secondary data. So do visit Prasanthi Nilayam. Please don't restrict yourself to: this guy said that, this person said this etc... ------------ Please talk about what you want to write in the page Sathya Sai Baba. and DO NOT use this page to advertise petitions. - User:Kaysov 0430 19 Jan 2004 UTC What should be added is that 1. the Sathya Sai central trust is the largest single recipient of overseas donations in India even though the Sathya Sai Central Trust rarely asks for donations. 2. there are well documented allegations of sexual abuse of young men by Sathya Sai Baba (SSB). That his alleged homosexuality is in contradiction with his claim to be pure and his teaching about chastity 3. there is good reason to believe that the birth date of 23 november 1926 is a fabrication. According to his school register he was born in 1929. Ex-followers of SSB accuse him of having changed the date to match a prediction by the Indian guru Aurobindo. 4. SSB is a hermaphrodite if we may believe various independent testimonies or performs a trick to make young men and boys to believe that he can change himself into a woman 5. the PM Vajpahee is a follower of SSB 6. the president of India Abdul Kalam visited Sathya Sai Baba's main ashram 7. there has been a documentary called 'Seduced by Sai Baba' on Danish TV which showed young men who claimed that they had been sexually abused by Sathya Sai Baba. 8. SSB's extraordinary claims of omnipotence and omniscience have been proven to be untrue by the skeptic Dale Beyerstein. 9. SSB claims to be a purna avatar like Krishna 10. the scholar Brian Steel and ex-follower found out that the original Telegu discourses were heavily edited. 11. even some ex-follower can't find a rational explanation for the miracles that they have experienced when they were a follower. Some ex-followers refuse to retract the miracles that they claim to have experienced. 12. quite a lot of people defected from the organization after ex-follower David Bailey published his Findings. 13. SSB assertions about magnetism shows huge discprepancies with generally accepted scientific knowledge about this subject 14. it has been proven that SSB sometimes uses sleight of hand for his materializations. Not only in the movies online but it has also been seen by so many people. The word credible in the article is too weak. 15. SSB wants his followers not to use the internet. Ex-followers and critical outsiders see this as SSB's way keep his followers. Followers see this as a good protection against the poison of calumny. 16. SSB's teaching are an eclectic mixture from Hinduism 17. The US government has issued a travel warning against SSB, in the section crime in Andhra Pradesh 18. ex-followers accuse him to be a dangerous quack 19. in contradiction to the current article (24 Jan 2004) the size of the contributions of the Sathya Sai Central Trust to the water project in Andhra Pradesh are disputed. User:Andries 24 Jan 2004 ---- Andries, can you please use the "Show Preview" button. You have already made 19 saves in 1 hour. I've messaged you at User_talk:Andries. User:Jay 11:10, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC) * Okay I will. User:Andries 11:20, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC) --- ==Still to do by Andries== *Sathya Sai organization (indulal Shah?)
*Murders investigation, shot by the police after they had been tied?
*darshan daily
*Educare (fomerly called Education in Human Values)
* Not possible to discuss it with in the SSO, examples Matthijs van der Meer, Ella Evers, Serguei Badaev, Barry Pittar, Terry Gallagher etc.
*Sathya Sai speaks http://www.sssct.org/Discourses/Speaks/Pages/Main.htm
* Paul Holbach: Allegation, Hypocritical invitation for investigation of authenticity because the setting of the ashram is such that real investigation is not possible.
User:Andries 23:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
* Reference to India Today article http://www.saiguru.net/english/media/001204india.htm
==copy from Andries' tak page==
I havn't read it yet, and I ''will'' read it, but I wanted to tell you that I exploded with laughter as soon as I opened the page. I have seen this guy before, and always in negative contexts. Also, his hair is a great source of amusement for me. Anyhow I will read the page and give you more substantial feedback next time ;) User:Sam Spade User talk:Sam Spade 21:45, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
:Amazingly NPOV. I am very impressed with your impartiality, and the thoroughness, this is really a very fine article. You are clearly a solid editor to be able to edit something this close to you so well. Many people tell me (or show me by their POV edits) that they are unable to edit on articles close to them personally. I'd be interested in discussing theology with you some time, this is an article I have written (Pantheism).
::I agree, I've seen Andries single-handedly change the page from a stub, I've tried hard to spot and remove POVs but not succeeded yet ! User:Jay 09:37, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
::: Thanks for your compliments. I think the main reasons why I was able to write a NPOV article on this subject in which I was so intensely emotionally involved is because it is now several years that I became an ex-follower. Secondly I still have a intellectual interest in the subject. Thirdly, there have been many excellent articles of ex-followers and last but not least it bothers me to read some articles that state that believers in SSB are blind and stupid [http://archive.salon.com/people/feature/2001/07/25/baba/index.html quote from salon.com about SSB "No matter -- in this part of the world, faith is absolute. Believers don't refuse God, and they don't question him."]. I think this is one sided and unfair and I feel vicariously insulted when I read it so I want to show the skeptical, objective readers the other side of the story. User:Andries 10:53, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
==Borrowing teachings from other religions==
LordsuryaofShropshire,
I don't agree with your edit that SSB occasionally uses teachings from other movements. He uses them very often. However, he uses occastionally teachings from other religions, like Buddhism and Christianity. I will revert your edit. His teachings are a confused and for his followers confusing mix of (sometimes contradicting) teachings from the rich heritage of Hinduism.
With regards to your edit about bhajan singing, I guess you are right. This was an old edit (not by me) which was not corrected because I wasn't sure about it. User:Andries 11:06, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
: I was not disagreeing that he doesn't use ideas from other faiths. It's just that when it states his borrowing from religions, the following laundry list of ideas are, every single one of them, part of the Hindu tradition. Also, like with the ridiculous statement on bhajans, a lot of these ideas are made to seem like original philosophies whereas they are common practices in India from centuries before his arrival on the scene. --User:LordSuryaofShropshire 18:07, Apr 25, 2004 (UTC)
::I agree with you even though I don't know enough about Hinduism to be certain. The strange thing is, if this is true, that it is difficult to spot plagiarism by SSB. User:Andries 18:16, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
==Relationship with the allegedly Muslim Sai Baba of Shirdi==
What I meant to say with regards to SSB's claim to be a reincarnation of Sai Baba of Shirdi is that SSB never showed Muslim traits nor Muslim teachings unlike Sai Baba of Shirdi. User:Andries 21:36, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
: I understand you now! Well, I edited what you edited... heh... basically I changed it to something along these lines: while he claims to be Shri Shirdi Sai Baba reincarnated, a man whose following responded to a harmonious blend of mystic Islam and Hinduism, Satya shows no signs of Muslim influence. --User:LordSuryaofShropshire 23:58, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)
::That is even better. Thanks. User:Andries 00:44, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
==Prophecy, Incarnations, Prema Sai Baba==
I once read in an article where the details of Satya Sai's future incarnation are mentioned - his name, the state and town/village where he will be born and the time. Can this information be included in the article. User:Jay 05:54, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
:There is only anecdotal evidence for the future birth date & place of Prema Sai Baba, from private interviews, not from public discourses [http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/Claimsnew.htm] & [http://www.sathyasai.org/intro/premasai.htm]. I will include it though because the story is popular among followers. User:Andries 11:27, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
:: I added it on the page about Prema Sai Baba. User:Andries 14:49, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
==To Alteripse, Birth place and date revert==
Alteripse, I reverted your edit on the place of birth and date because only the date is disputed, not the place. Your other edits were very good.
Thanks. User:Andries 15:55, 1 May 2004 (UTC)
== "many fewer followers since 2000"
What is the evidence for this assertion? I have softened the wording to make clear that this is a POV, not a proven fact. The groups I have attended both before 2000 and recently, in London and in Arizona, have similar attendances now as in 1998. People whom I know who have visited Puttaparthi say the queues (lines)there are at least as long as ever.
[[User: Pachiaammos 6 May 2004, 23:45
::The number of followers has substiantally fallen down in countries like the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden. With regards to the Netherlands it is my own observation and could also be read in the Newspaper ''Trouw.'' There is only one group left in Sweden. There used to be several. With regards to Norway, I read it on Robert Priddy's website. User:Andries 19:19, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
==Dale Beyerstein's study==
I think that [http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex_baba/engels/articles/p_holbach/dbbooke/cont.htm Beyerstein proved in his extensive study] that SSB is not omniscient and omnipotent. I will remove the adverb supposedly. That is a weasel term and against the Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_terms User:Andries 11:01, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
==Michael Goldstein or Indulal Shah?==
When did Michael Goldstein succeed Indulal Shah as head of the international Sathya Sai Organisation? I thought that Goldstein was the head of the American SSO. Thanks in advance. User:Andries 14:49, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
==Is the article getting too long? Should it be split up?==
I don't understand why this article is getting so long. There is even more that I want to write. Should the article be split up in several seperate main articles?
Thanks in advance. User:Andries 22:08, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
:Keep writing, first of all. Its best for articles to be under 32k, but many arn't. If you do want to split things off, I reccomend creating a sub-page for the allegations/debate of allegations etc... The references section is a big part of the article too, but I donno what to do about that. Maybe a section in the talk page, like Talk:Sathya Sai Baba/References? User:Sam Spade User talk:Sam Spade 22:33, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
:I have done a radical overhaul of this article, primarily to shorten it because it had become unwieldy. It read like it had like Topsy, just growed as points were added by critics of SSB and counter-points by supporters. I have retained ''inshallah'' the balanced NPOV inclusion of what Baba says and what his opponents say. But, IMHO, Wikipedia's primary purpose is to inform browsing readers who have heard the name ''Sai Baba'' and want to know more about him, not to air a detailed discussion of whether he is who he says he is. User: Pachiaammos 07:23 9 May 2004
::Pachiaamos, I appreciate your efforts to downsize the article but the usual way of doing that is creating separate main articles. I don't agree with your removal of references and this is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ACite_your_sources not the wikipedia policy]. Instead, I request you to add references too for what you write to ensure intellectual accuracy. I found some of your edits of doubtful quality and I wasn't able to verify them due to missing references. I disagree with your removal of the section views on the guru. I think that Wikipedia readers who are interested in the subject would find this a highly interesting section. Kind regards, User:Andries 09:53, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
==The history section is too long and should only contain facts==
I think the history section has grown too long. I think we should only write undisputed facts there which will make the section very short. The rest can be moved either to the beliefs and practices article or to Allegations article. The Kasturi biography is important as a myth in the sociological meaning of the word i.e. a story not necessarily untrue that is important for the group.User:Andries 21:17, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I have edited down the History section aas you suggest and moved the discursive part to the Allegations page.
I have restored the Kirlian Photography sentences (under Practices) which someone secretly (accidentally?) removed.
User:Pachiaammos 11 May 2004
:Thanks for doing that although I think the place of the history section should be at the beginning of the article
==The Need for References when writing about SSB==
I want to quote Robert Priddy to make it clear why reference are important when writing about SSB.
"Sai Baba repeatedly warns against listening to or spreading rumors. He compares this to dogs barking at nothing (eg. p. 130, Sathya Sai Speaks, Vol 13). Remarkably, however, his ashrams and movement are certainly far more subject to rumours and unconfirmable stories than any other place I have ever been. Many originate from him in interview sessions and are then reported outside, where they become 'hearsay', which he then neither needs to confirm nor reject. Why is all this so widespread in the Sai movement? "
from http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/enigma/Rum1.htm
Anyone who writes about SSB should keep this in mind.
==Kirlian photos==
I removed your Kirlian statement because I have never seen a Kirlian photo of SSB. I didn't know whether I should believe it. I had heard about Baranowski and a friend had seen a video about him with regards to SSB. In what book have you seen it? Can I find it on the internet? By the way Kirlian photography is not scientific. User:Andries 20:38, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
==The book list should be on alphabetic order==
By the way, according to the rules of wikipedia the book list should be in alphabetic order of the surname of the author. User:Andries 21:02, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
== to Andries ==
Could you explain what your purpose is in frequently removing my contributions? (I grant that you have left some of them in place.)
:Because I didn't find them all good. And besides you also removed some of my contributions, like the references that took me so much time to find and to maintain them. User:Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I don't accept that your reason for removing my Kirlian contribution is balanced. You personally have not seen a Kirlian photo - so what? I better understand your wish to remove the word "scientific" (or to say "supposedly scientific") if some scientists do not accept Kirlian photography is a science.
:Hello Pachiaaamos, the reason why I moved and changed (not removed) your paragraph about Baranowski was that I found the statement about the Kirlian photos doubtful. I didn't doubt that [http://www.srisathyasai.org.in/pages/bhagawan/miracles/mirac15.htm Baranowski testified as you wrote about Baba's aura]. So if you can provide a reference for your statement e.g. book with page number on which the Baranowski's Kirlian photo of Baba can be found then I have no problem at all. In other words, where is the picture? The subject is controversial and very complex and there is, I believe, a lot of disinformation so that is why the references are important. User:Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
And altogether, what is the benefit of the high level of negative references in the article as you have created it? I don't see similar references in articles about other contemporary/recent spiritual leaders such as (Sri) Aurobindo or Swaminarayan.
: I am sorry but SSB is simply controversial. Please do add more positive websites if you want. User:Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Can we reach a compromise text, without making the article unwieldy or POV?
:I hope so. User:Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
User: Pachiaammos 12 May 2004
:Perhaps those gentlemen have molested fewer children? I assure you no one is unnecessarilly presenting contentious information, but rather providing what facts the resources allow. As for your other concerns, Kirlian photo's are at the fringes of science, accepted by some for spiritual purposes, and not by others, and if you express this clearly I think you should have little trouble w legitimate additions. User:Sam Spade User talk:Sam Spade 14:00, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
== to others ==
Is there anyone else here who cares what is said about Sai Baba or is this just a 2 person dialog?
User:Pachiaammos 12 May 2004
:Do you mean what is said about Sai Baba in the article or on the talk page ? User:Jay 13:55, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
::The short, simple, and accurate answer is yes. User:Sam Spade User talk:Sam Spade 14:00, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I mean the article, what is said about Baba. If no-one here cares, I don't want to strive to improve it.
:The object here is to present neutral information with respect for the facts. If we succeed then I think people will read the article User:Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
User:Pachiaammos 12 May 2004
:Yes, certainly! If you're good at the subject, pls go ahead and contribute. Every article on wikipedia needs improvement. I'm not a devotee of Sathya Sai, and am not for or against him, so I'll be pretty neutral with your edits. I'm happy with Andries neutrality, but its always good to listen to another (neutral) point of view! User:Jay 17:13, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I find it very interesting that the critics of Sai Baba are allowed to spout their unproven allegations but anyone who rebutts the critics with FACTUAL information is "slandering" them. It's obvious from looking at this talk page that Andries thinks he "owns" this article. I've watched this type of behavior from his group for two years. They don't want you to know how many lies I've uncovered in their stories and that there are anti-Sais who have criminal records. This is why they can't get into a court room. They'd last about two seconds.
==I requested User:209.240.205.63 to be blocked because of vandalism==
*Insists on slandering the critics of Sathya Sai Baba e.g. Skeptics "such as Premanand, 'a school drop out", "Tal Brooke who is an evangelical Christian sees himself as a 'false prophet and an 'Antichrist, as predicted in the Bible." "Hari Sampath's website, sathyasaivictims.com went down after a query was turned over to Illinois police regarding a report on an internet message board that Sampath was wanted in India for theft and sexual assault. Since then Sampath's high profile public appearance seems to have evaporated." This user is probably sincere but brainwashing.
*Please block. User:Andries 06:04, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I also added a NPOV warning until the user is blocked and the slander against Sampath, Premanand and Brooke has been removed. I could remove it now but the user re-instates it quickly. User:Andries 11:41, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
What I mean is that the remarks that you make about Premanand, Sampath and Brooke are irrelevant and in the case of Sampath are libel which is a crime offence. User:Andries 20:31, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I left a message asking User:209.240.205.63 to discuss changes on the talk page. User:Bcorr|User talk:Bcorr 20:28, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I left a new message asking User:Freelanceresearch to discuss changes on the talk page. User:Bcorr|User talk:Bcorr 21:00, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Hi Andres. While I agree that User:Freelanceresearch is almost certainly the same person as User:209.240.205.63, I think it's important to at least give a new user the benefit of the doubt. I got an edit conflict, so I stuck in my "nice" request and welcome message above your note. You might consider removing it or toning it down, but it's your choice. I personally feel it's important to avoid "biting the newbies". And also, I doubt that the account or the IP will be blocked without some broader discussion. I'd recommend listing Talk:Sathya Sai Baba on Wikipedia:Requests for comment. Thanks, User:Bcorr|User talk:Bcorr 21:07, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
:thanks for your help. I have been very liberal with undocumented edits on this article but I find these latest edits slanderous and irrelevant. They are ad hominem attack against the critics of SSB that don't belong in a serious article. I don't think that discussion in this case with this person helps to come closer. I know this person from yahoo group sathya sai baba. I will do my best to do tone it down but I am very pessimistic. User:Andries 21:14, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
==disputed warning==
I gave the article a disputed warning because of the following untrue sentences. I am too tired to correct the article now.
:"Glen Meloy has openly an admittedly indulged in fanatic anti-Sathya Sai Baba propagandizing and has been accused of cult-like control of anti-Sai activists. Another critic (Hari Sampath who resorts to conspiracy theories) say that school records revealed several different birth dates for the boy (under his original name Sathyanarayana Raju) and suggest that he invented the 23 November, 1926 day of birth because on 24 November, 1926 the famed Hindu philosopher-mystic Sri Aurobindo said that the Divine had descended on Earth. Hari Sampath's claims are not substantiated, however"
User:Andries 19:19, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
==anon editor 61.95.133.8?==
please discuss such large edits on the talk page. Could you also provide sourses for your claims. I do not fell that at the meoment your edits agree with NPOV. Finaly could you explain you deletion of large amounts of aparently good text?User:Geni 13:03, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
=={pseudoprotected}==
Since it is quite clear than anon user has no intention of ceaseing to edit the article and I do not find their version remotly acceptable I can't see any point for this tag. If anon decides to disscuss thier edits or another wikipedian supports them I will of course reconsider my position.
== Far From Neutral ==
This wikipedia article is far from "neutral". Someone does not allow anyone to alter it. They provide only way one information with no quality counter sites. This site is a farce.
Hi. You haven't mentioned what makes you believe that. You can always edit an article, in case you find it to be "far from neutral". In case of an "edit war", if you feel that somebody is not allowing you to alter it, you can always request for Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Also see Wikipedia:Mediation, Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee. User:Utcursch 06:25, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)
:I agree that there may be too many critical websites and articles mentioned as external links but the way user:61.95.133.83 edited the article is not according to NPOV guidelines. For example, s/he stated unattributed opinions, mentioned that SSB's alleged birth date was 23 Nov. 1926 as if it were a fact, though SSB's school record says that he was born in 1929. That is totally unacceptable. User:Andries 07:16, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
:I will admit failing to see how copying and pasting the article "love" (as the person complaining has done)to this article helps with NPOV (or anything for that matter). About the matter of user:61.95.133.8?'s edits. they involve serious removing of material (which in my judgement results in a POV article) without discussion on the talk page or anywhere else.User:Geni 10:20, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
== Bad Edits ==
09:03, 31 Dec 2004 202.153.37.96
07:13, 30 Dec 2004 210.214.44.150
07:38, 28 Dec 2004 210.214.48.168
These edits all have a very slanted view. I have reverted twice so it's up to someone else. User:Grenavitar ==Comments by anon== This page cannot be used as a bulletin board for those obsessed with criticsing Sri Sathya Sai Baba. If this is a bulletin board which is meant to be objective, its time that those obsessed with those critising Sri Sathya Sai Baba accept other view points too. It cannot be a one sided view. Acting as if one is objective, by putting in some positives here and there, which are clearly surrounded by negatives would not help. Writing the positives as if Sri Sathya Baba is a fraud with hidden agend is clerly depicted throughout this bulletin board. I have also found that any changes brought about in the content is changed by some so called objective 'experts'. The critics before questioning others as vandalists will really help in asking the questions to themselves... Am i "objective?" No..No..No..Am a true hypocrat... :How does adding that thought for the day thing active your aims? If you feel that any of the reported critisms are unfair feel free to add reference comments to the the article to that effect.User:Geni 13:19, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC) Some of you being the spokesmen of what Sri Sathya Sai Baba has done and not done, may be reading through his literatures will certainly help. The reason being that whatever is written in this website with respect to his teachings itself is far away from what He teaches. So better acquaint oneself with HIS teachings first. There has been attempts on my part to change some of my content but it has all been deleted by the officeal "knowledgeable" people who claim to know much about Baba without even making a visit to HIS abode. Amen...Reading HIS speeches itself will bring a lot of solace and peace. If you are really interested in understanding about HIM thats the basic that you can do. On the other hand, if it is ego satisfaction that is required by maintaining, all these mud-slinging in the name of "objectivity" please continue...Am surprised that you kept the earlier comment. Because even that was deleted at a point of time... :redgadless of what his speaches may or may not do they are not encyopedic.User:Geni 13:21, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC) :The full text of the ''Thought of the Day'' Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not on Wikipedia. I think we can, though, add a link to the [http://www.radiosai.org/Pages/Thought.asp Thought of the Day] at the bottom of the page under Sathya_Sai_Baba#External_links. —User:Markaci·User_talk:Markaci·Special:Contributions/Markaci 18:39, 2005 Feb 1 (UTC) --- SOME SUGGESTIONS 1. In External links, please add not just discussion groups where "pornographic and abusive language" are used, but give links to discussion group on Sri Sathya Sai Baba, where discussions on Love, Service and Compassion are done. There are many such discussion groups, am sure you are aware of that. Please add at least some of those into the listings. 2. Websites of followers are very short as compared to Websites of critics. So you need to update these listings. I can give you a minimum of 50 website URLs if you request them. 3. References - Links should not be primarily slanted anti-SSB. There should be positive thoughts too in the section, qualitatively and quantitatively. 4. In books for Sai Baba, please give the link to Sri Sathya Sai Books and Publications Trust. 5. In the section on Media and government, the selection has only been partial. There are hundreds of articles which are appearing in everyday newspapers speaking about SSB in an objective angle, yet not slanted and negative. You need to take all those things into consideration. You can go to websites of many of Indian publications and you will get data on the same. Don't just restrict to India Today, who used the whole issue as a marketing issue for their anniversary celebration. SSB on front cover will obviously attract attention. 6. There is a necessity to revamp sections like 'history and origins', 'teachings', 'practices', 'organisations' etc. 7. Try getting primary data on SSB rather than secondary data. A operations researcher/statistician/scientist/analyst will tell you the importance of primary data as compared to secondary data. So do visit Prasanthi Nilayam. Please don't restrict yourself to: this guy said that, this person said this etc... ---- --- It has been a couple of weeks since i have suggested certain changes under the title "SOME SUGGESTIONS" in the page but the changes haven't been done. Please update the changes as soon as possible. I did not update the changes as i did not want to interfere with the "objectivity" of the page. --- :okay, I basically agree with suggestions 2-5 and disagree with 1 and 7. Not sure what you mean with nr. 6.How should these sections revamped? User:Andries 13:14, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::Andries, with all due respect, this article is helplessly biased against the subject of the article (my guess is that 80% of the article is critical). Suggestions by anon 1 and 7 will be a good attempt to add some balance to this article. I can help if you don't want to it. --User:Zappaz 04:57, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::well, it was referred to by the press in 2004 so it cannot be bad. The question is not about balance but about NPOV. And the abusive and pornographic yahoo groups is pro- and con- ,not necessarily critical. It just happens to be the main discussion forum. With regards to 7, this is first source, not 2nd and 3rd source and is not recommended by Wikipedia standards. According to the guidelines we have to use the best sources (Nagel, Steel, Priddy, Badaev) available and in this case they happen to be critical. Please find better sources if you can. User:Andries 07:45, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC) :::OK. I could take the challenge, but note that will not be pretty... I would much prefer that you take the challenge yourself and write for the enemy, for once. As per your statement about being about NPOV and not about balance (after your discussions Anti-cult movement, issue if 1st sources, and that the only sources you found are of critics, I take that with huge pinch of salt....! --User:Zappaz 16:50, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::::Okay, I will rewrite it a bit. Hmmm, I have to admit that you have a point with the 1st sources. User:Andries 16:55, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC) --- As it has been mentioned that there is agreement with points 2-5, i would not like to get on further explanations with it. Regarding point 1 am not able to understand the point of difference. Just like the way it has been mentioned that there is a group which can speak about pornography and what not, there are yahoo groups which speaks about Divinity, Peace etc. To add "objectivity" here are some points: The number of members in the webstie that speak about pornography is only 897 while memberships of other groups have crossed 2300. Naturally and obviously, as the whole world are not full of perverts. And who are we to decide which discussion groups should be listed here or not? So please list the following discussion links too: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saibabalist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saibabanews/ If you have trouble adding it, i will be happy to make the modifications... ==Purported cult== This material is from the article List of purported cults, which we are paring down to a pure list. Editors here can best evaluate its statements and decide how to integrate it into this article. Thanks, -User:Willmcw 20:55, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC) :''Sathya Sai Baba :''Some ex-members like the late Glen Meloy consider the Sathya Sai Organisation that was founded by Sathya Sai Baba a cult. The reason is that these ex-members say that the allegations of sexual abuse carried out by Sathya Sai Baba are correct and the Sathya Sai organization refuses to properly investigate these. Ex-member Robert Priddy who maintains an extensive website about Sathya Sai Baba believes that it is a secretive, autocratic personality cult that has strong cultic characteristics. More than 800 people have signed an internet petition requesting impartial investigation regarding accusations of sexual abuse charges and murder. [http://www.saipetition.net/] :''Followers purport Sathya Sai Baba's group is not a cult because it displays atypical characteristics like charity and tolerance towards other beliefs. Also, it does not claim to be the only way to God and truth, encourages a critical assesment of the guru before accepting him, and does not advocate proselytizing. They point out that often cults will expect their adherents to abandon worldly duties and to severe ties with their families, which is something Sathya Sai Baba has explicitly said not to do. :''References: :*''[http://www.sathyasai.org/intro/cults.htm Detailed rebuttal of cult allegation on the website of the international Sathya Sai organisation] :*''[http://www.exbaba.com Netherlands based website of concerned ex-followers] :*''[http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/ Robert Priddy's extensive website, also a lot about cults in general] -------------- When are the suggested changes (1-7) going to be updated in the discussion page? :We only agreed about 2-5 and I already sized down the critical weblinks a bit. I'll try to size down the allegation here too. User:Andries 07:41, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Vandalizing the page == Deleting, without explanation, links along, with important templates and categories, is vandalism and if it continues we will have to have the page protected. If anyone objects to any of the links, they should act in an adult manner and bring their concerns here to be discussed. I reviewed the "rebuttal" links and found one which was clearly not useful for our readers, a Yahoo group that is devoted to collecting disparaging information. I deleted that link, with an explanatory edit summary. Please explain why the other links should be deleted. -User:Willmcw 01:18, May 6, 2005 (UTC) -------- you are right willmcw, it has happened with me too. This was when i tried to add certain content which of course, was about the good work undertaken by Sri Sathya Sai Baba. Some fellows have deleted all those changes without any discussion. An idea: How about reviewing the whole page as such? We will discuss how each and every paragraph should be written, right from the intro paragraph. There is a lack of objectivity in this page and i feel, presumably i may be wrong, that there is too much of mud-slinging in this page against SSB. :Go for it. Be bold. Cheers, -User:Willmcw 22:03, May 24, 2005 (UTC) ::considering the contiversal nature of the subject perhaps it would be better to lay out your suggestions on the talk page first.User:Geni 23:59, 24 May 2005 (UTC) :::Exactly, which is what the anon was proposing doing (''I think''). Let me also add that it would help the discussion if everyone uses a name and signs their talk-page contributions. Registration is free and actually allows for greater anonymity. Sign by adding four tildes (~) at the end. It iis definitely better to discus matters here, rather than reverting without communicating. Cheers, -User:Willmcw 02:35, May 25, 2005 (UTC) --- ==Service activities== Hii, you all can address me as monkey. First suggestion: We need to document all the service activites undertaken by SSB. Is there a need for creating a new subheading for the same in the page? Or can we put it up somewhere else in the page? Monkey Thanks for contributing, Monkey. A subheaduing is easy to create. Just type two equal signs on either side of the section title - they'll format it as a section header. See the example above. Note that only the initial word and proper nouns are capitalized. Cheers, -User:Willmcw 01:07, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC) :Just a reminder that the article already states several times that SSB's followers and his organizations are involved in service projects and charity. User:Andries 12:37, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Refreshments== Made some changes in the page. 1. Added three pictures. One is the Sarva Dharma Symbol, second is a picture about Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Learning and the third one is about Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Medical Sciences. 2. Added more weblinks about Sri Sathya Sai Baba. 3. Added media reports that caem on service activities undertaken by Sri Sathya Sai Seva Organisations. Any feedback please discuss here. Thanks monkeyishere. :Thanks for your contributions. But we will need to cut back on them. Wikipedia is not a web directory. We don't add links just for the sake of adding them. Also, where did you get the photos? Did you take them yourself? Cheers, -User:Willmcw 02:40, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC) :Most articles have from 1-20 links. This article has 53. Without losing the official websites, or necessary-for-NPOV critical sites, we need to cut this down. To begin with, we need to remember that the purpose of adding external links to articles is to provide readers of the article with additional information. Forums generally have little information (and much opinion) so I suggest dropping all the forums. News mentions should be included only to cite specific facts, not to serve as a list of press clippings. Usually we should only have one link to any given domain, unless there there are reasons for additional links to specific pages. See wikipedia:external links. Cheers, -User:Willmcw 06:23, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
Sathya Sai Baba is a controversial India guru who has millions of followers both organized and unorganized all over the world. He is the founder of a new religious movement called the Sathya Sai Organisation. new religious movements
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Sathya Sai Baba
Sathya Sai Baba (born Sathya Narayana Raju with the family name Ratnakaram, circa 1926-1929) is a popular, controversial India guru who has millions of followers and hundreds of Sathya Sai Baba groups in many countries. When he was in his teens he claimed to be the reincarnation of the fakir Shirdi Sai Baba and subsequently took the fakir's name. He says that he is an ''avatar'' (incarnation) of Shiva and Shakti and an embodiment of love with divinity powers such as omniscience and omnipotence. He is said to manifest ''vibuthi'' (holy ash) and small objects like rings and watches daily. He claims to materialization these objects out of nothing, which has yet to stand up to scientific scrutiny. He preaches a foundation of five basic values: Truth, Right Conduct, Peace, Love and Non-violence. He teaches the unity of all major world religion and says that they all lead to God. His followers and the organizations that he has founded are involved in many charity projects, providing free modern hospitals and water projects serving thousands in the Indian state of Andhra Pradesh and the city of Chennai (Madras). In his ashram and around it there are various buildings including a University and a World Religions Museum. He has founded schools all over India. Critics, including Rationalism Sanal Edamaruku, ex-follower turned skeptic Skepticism Basava Premanand and the pianist David Bailey claim that these materializations are done by sleight of hand, which they say can be verified with video movies available on the internet. They also claim that he has inappropriate sexual relations with young men and boys. Testimonies of these sexual abuses are available on the internet. Another point of criticism is the unresolved killings of four men in in Sai Baba's private quarters in 1993. ==History and origins== See ''Main article History and origins of the Sathya Sai Baba movement'' When the boy Sathya Narayana Raju, born in or near the village Puttaparthi, was in his teens, he claimed to be the reincarnation of the fakir Sai Baba who was not well known in that area at that time. In the late 1960s the guru attracted Western spiritual seekers. The number of adherents fell in and after the year 2000 in Scandinavia and the Netherlands due to negative publicity and testimonies by ex-followers such as the Wales musician David Bailey. ==Teachings== ''Main article Beliefs and practices in the Sathya Sai Organisation'' Primary teachings are: *Love - for all creatures. *Service - to others. *Put a ceiling on one's desires. *The world is Maya (Hinduism) (illusion), only God is real. *Every person is God in form, though most do not experience this as their reality. *Meditation - Baba teaches two techniques, ''so ham'' (Upanishadic mantra for repetition and focus) and ''jyoti'' (Light meditation). *Inclusive acceptance of all religions as paths to realizing the One (God). *Ahimsa (non-violence), Shanti (peace), dharma (right conduct, living in accord with natural law), and satya (truth). *Importance of bhakti (devotion) to God and japa and other sadhana (spiritual excercise) to foster this devotion ==Practices== [[Image:Sarva Dharma Symbol.jpg|Sarva Dharma Symbol.jpg|thumb|right|175px|The Sarva Dharma logo (all religions symbol) that shows the unity of all religions and is the old symbol for the Sathya Sai Organisation ]] His popularity (despite opponents, see section below) and the donations by followers have enabled Sathya Sai Baba and his organizations to build an increasingly large ashram near the once poor and isolated village of Puttaparthi. Sathya Sai Baba resides much of the time in his main ''ashram'' called ''Prashanthi Nilayam'' (abode of peace) at Puttaparthi. In the hot summer the guru leaves for his other ashram called ''Brindavan'' in Whitefield, India (sometimes called Kadugodi), a town on the outskirts of Bangalore. He has left India only once for a visit to Uganda in 1968. He is regarded by some as an excellent orator in his native language Telugu, and also speaks passable Tamil. He claims to be the ''Kali Yuga'' ''purna avatar'' (full divine incarnation of this era) of Lord Shiva and Shakti. He says that he is omniscient, omnipotent, able to create matter from mere thought. He also stresses he is free from desires. He preaches love and the unity of all religions. Sai Baba claims to be pure divine love. Baba asserts that he is an avatar of God, and a reincarnation of Lord Rama, of Sri Krishna, and of Shirdi Sai Baba. Many of his followers say that he is the primary avatar of our times. He has repeatedly claimed to be the actual reincarnation of Vishnu, Rama, Krishna, Kabir and other famous figures of Indian mythology. Sathya Sai Baba can be seen in person performing what he claims are miracles daily in the form of materializations of small objects, for example jewelry such as bracelets, rings, watches and especially ''vibhuti'' (holy ash) and kum kum. He says that he can faith healer diseases of his devotees sometimes by his spiritual power and sometimes by taking on the disease himself. There is anecdotal evidence that supports this claim. Followers attribute many miracles to him which they have witnessed in his presence and in their own countries, such as spontaneous vibhuti manifestations on the pictures of the guru in their homes, and bilocation the appearance of Sai Baba in their own presence while he is also in another place. Followers also report that he has materialized out-of-season fruit several times. He says he performs these miracles to attract people and then to transform them spirituality. He teaches a rather traditional but syncretism form of Hinduism that has come from many sect and movements including ''advaita'', occasionally drawing from other religions like Buddhism, Sikhism, and Christianity. In spite of his claim to be a reincarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba, a spiritual leader who blended Islam and Hinduism in his teachings, he teaches no Muslim rituals. The only real Christian influence can be felt in the institution of regular Sunday School sessions for devotees. He says that he has come to restore faith in, and encourage the practice of the teachings in the Vedas. Several books and discourses by him, such as the book ''Ramakatha Rasavahinï'' advocate the literal truth of Hindu mythology. One important practice in his ashrams is ''darshan'' (spiritual sight). During ''darshan'' Sathya Sai Baba walks among his followers. He may listen to a few chosen persons, accept letters, or materialize and distribute ''vibhuti'' (sacred ash of Lord Shiva). Sathya Sai Baba claims that his '' darshan'' has spiritual benefits for those who attend it. Usually people wait hours to get a good place for ''darshan''. Sathya Sai Baba sometimes invites people for a group interview with him in a room in the 'ashram's 'mandir' (Hindu temple). Followers consider it a great privilege to get such an interview. Sometimes a person from this group is invited for a private interview. Across the globe local Sathya Sai Baba groups assemble to sing ''bhajan'' (Hindu devotional songs), study Sathya Sai Baba's teachings, do collective community service (called ''seva''), and teach ''Education in Human Values'' (Sai ''Sunday School''). His followers generally do not proselytize. Bhajans are sung at nearly every meeting with the names of the traditional Hindu deities occasionally replaced by Baba's name. Several testimonies seem to indicate that he or she can change into a woman instanteneously. These puzzling testimonies has led some to the conclusion that Baba is a intersexual. Alexandra Nagel has argued in her 1994 Dutch language article ''De Sai Paradox/The Sai Paradox'' and her 2001 article ''Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or?'' that this sex change may be related to Baba's claim to be the incarnation of both the male and female aspects of God, Shiva and Shakti respectively. ==Organizations== [[Image:SSIHL.jpg|thumb|right|175px|Building of the Sri Sathya Sai Institute of higher learning ]] He has founded a number of educational institutions and charitable hospitals, most notably the Sri Sathya Sai Institute of higher learning and the Sri Sathya Institute of Higher Medicine, located within or near the main ashrams and Anantapur town. [8] These organizations seek to provide free education and health care to the public. They are private institutions and their admission criteria are not published, admissions being decided on individual merits as decided by Sai Baba or his executives. Many of the patients are devotees from India and abroad. The trust organization has made large contributions to drinking water projects for the whole of the Anantapur district in Andhra Pradesh and Chennai. His Educare (formerly called Education in Human Values) programme seeks to found schools in all countries with the explicit goal to educate children in the five human values and spirituality. Schools have already been founded in Canada Toronto, Zambia, Australia, the United States, and several in India. As all these operations are public. Critics of these institutions and their figurehead online often use that information to email nearby citizens of what they see as a danger. A projected college in Denmark was stopped by local residents who objected to the Sai Organisations as a cult, having seen the film "Seduced by Sai Baba" as broadcast repeatedly on Danish national TV. [[image:Sathya_Sai_Organisation_official_logo.jpg|thumb|right|175px|The new official logo of the Sathya Sai Organisation ]] All the local ''Sai Samithis'' (Sathya Sai Baba groups) are part of a hierarchical structure called the Sathya Sai Organisation. The chairman of the organisation is Michael Goldstein of the USA. The logo of the Sathya Sai organization is a stylized lotus flower with the text of the so-called five human values, highly influenced by not only Hinduism but also Jainism and Buddhism, in its petals. These values are ''satya'' (truth), ''dharma'' (right conduct), ''ahimsa'' (non-violence), ''prema'' (love) and ''shanti'' (peace). This text version has replaced the old logo with the symbols of the 5 or 6 world religions in the petals. The Sri Sathya Sai central trust was founded in 1972 and is mainly involved in charities such as the Rayalaseema water project. The trust has tax exempt status and is a major recipient of donations from abroad though Baba and his organizations occasionally explicitly solicit donations. All donations and expenditures are allegedly a matter of record which are legally documented by the bank holding the sums. The Sri Sathya Sai Books and Publications Trust is the official publisher of the ''Sathya Sai Organisation''. It publishes the international monthly magazine called Sanathana Sarathi. In various nations similar publication trusts maintain in their own native language. == Sceptics and opponents== ''Main article Allegations against Sathya Sai Baba'' Sceptics say claims about Sai Baba are unproven or false. They say that his “miracles” are performed by sleight of hand; his devotees have imagined his bilocation “appearances”; his reincarnation claims are dubious and unverified; his teachings are unoriginal, often mere platitudes and unremarkable; and that his charity projects are exaggerated, and in part, a front for money-laundering and other personal gain of the coterie of the top of the organizations who know the Baba to be a cheater. In 1993 four people who were armed with knives were killed after they had intruded in Sai Baba's bedroom. The main body of Indian journalists investigating the ashram murders in 1993 were unable to obtain more than very sparse information on the Central Trust's accounts and dealings. The drinking water projects were claimed to be the result of Sai Baba's "Divine Will". However, they have largely failed to function in most of the villages due to a sinking water table, contractor corruption, and failure to arrange for maintenance. Due to this, the Rayalaseema project had to be taken over by the Andhra Pradesh State government. Some ex-devotees including the American Glen Meloy accuse him of being a cult leader who uses mind control, and propaganda and who has created a personality cult. Other critics say that school records revealed several different birth dates for the boy (under his original name Sathyanarayana Raju) and suggest that he invented the 23 November, 1926 day of birth because on 24 November, 1926 the famed Hindu philosopher-mystic Sri Aurobindo said that the Divine had descended on Earth. Another critic, ex-devotee and retired researcher/lecturer in philosophy, University of Oslo, the former national coordinator of the organization in Norway, Robert Priddy, has pointed out that Sathya Sai Baba's assertions on many subjects exhibit basic ignorance of physics, geology, history of religion and much more. For example, Sai Baba's 'teaching' on magnetism differs greatly from generally accepted science, being wholly incommensurate with many simple and basic known facts. Additionally, the Australia ex-follower and scholar Brian Steel has documented strong indications that the original Telugu discourses by Baba have been heavily edited to improve them. Followers were given the impression, if not explicitly told, that the discourses published in the Sathya Sai Speaks series were the literal translation of what the guru said. Steel also wrote that many authors who wrote or still write positive books about Baba did not fulfill their responsibility of adherence to basic intellectual, journalistic and scholarly standards and hence may unintentionally misguide both followers and the general public. He contends that the claims of Baba about himself fluctuate and are inconsistent. He has recently discovered a trend to tone down the extraordinary claims that the guru makes about himself which Steel thinks is done to avoid embarrassment and loss of credibility. There are also critics who allege that he has sexual relations with young men and boys among his followers, and has done so for more than forty years. No Indian court of law has accepted any case on sexual abuse by Baba. Nor have any of the alleged victims filed charges in the appropriate district. This may be due to the perceived status of the Baba as being too powerful, with supporters throughout the High Courts and the judiciary in India. Besides there is a testimony by Jens Senthi who claimed to have been sexually abused by the Baba but who was treated as a criminal by the Puttaparthi police. Supporters of Baba say the allegations are baseless rumor created with the malicious intention of sabotaging the guru's work. Top official of the Sathya Sai Organisation's Central Coordinator of Europe, Thorbjørn Meyer, have confirmed in public that Sai Baba regularly takes down boys and young men's trousers and oils their genitals. This is an illegal act, also done without consent. Much worse abuses are described by dozens of young men in affidavits, also published widely on the internet and backed up by filmed testimonies in films, including ''"Seduced by Sai Baba"'' by Denmark's national television, ''"Guru Busters"'' by UK's Channnel 4, both featuring arch critic and Rationalism Sanal Edamaruku and documentary film ''"Secret Swami"'' by BBC. The TV documentary "''Seduced By Sai Baba''", produced by Denmark's national television and radio broadcaster Danmarks Radio aired in Denmark, Australia and Norway. The Danish jounalist Ojvind Kyro who was involved in the production of the documentary asserts, as published in Robert Priddy's book "The End of the Dream", that he has in his possession ten signed affidavits of young men from around the globe who claim to have been seriously sexually abused by SSB. He writes that these affidavits are open to see for official investigators and accredited journalists but not for the public. Critics include Rationalism Sanal Edamaruku, the Welsh ex-devotee musician David Bailey who compiled “The Findings” in the year 2000, and ex-devotee turned sceptic Basava Premanand ("Lure of miracles" and "Divine Octopus") [10]. ===The media and governments=== [[Image:HospitalEntrance.jpg|thumb|right|175px| Hospital Entrance of Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Medical Sciences, Puttaparthi ]] Several media articles have appeared on the guru. ''The Sunday Telegraph'' of Britain published "Divine Downfall" in October 2000, a well-researched article reporting interviews with one of SSB's closest associates and alleged sexual partners, Dr. N. Bhatia, formerly employed in the SSB Super-Speciality hospital. Dr. Bhatia stated that an underage student he examined had been raped by Sai Baba and that he had confronted him about it. Directly thereafter Dr. Bhatia was accused of fraud and sexual offences and forced to leave his work and the ashram. Dr. Bhatia, like several former devotees, had written a very positive book about Sai Baba without mentioning any sexual allegations. Many devotees feel that persons who change their story regarding their initial account cannot possibly be credible. While making allegations Dr. Bhatia, who is married, at the same time still admitted he believed Sai Baba is God and has divine powers. The article was republished in other papers [http://www.saiguru.net/english/media/001028divine.htm]. One of the more important critical articles was a front page article in the nationwide India Today magazine called "''A God accused''" on 4 December, 2000. In December 2002 the New York Times published a rather positive article on the guru without mentioning the allegations at all. [28] There have also been numerous positive articles about Sai Baba as well as articles he has written in Indian papers. The Indian President Abdul Kalam and the former Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee visit the ashram and pay respect to the guru. Vajpayee has written a letter which is published on the internet, also signed by two former Supreme Court Justices, expressing that Sathya Sai Baba is innocent of sexual molestations and that the accusations are concocted and malicious. [32] Sceptics are confused as to whether Vajpayee's signed statement is based on government information not made available to the public. But it was made clear during the recent documentary, "Secret Swami" that the Indian government has taken the position that the allegations against Sai Baba are false. Questions have been asked in the Parliament of the United Kingdom about the suicide of a British young man who a friend claims told him he was sexually abused by the guru. The young man had HIV, and overdosed on the painkiller commonly known as Tylenol. Since the alleged victim is deceased the accusation is hearsay and cannot be taken as evidence in a court of law. One Member of Parliament has expressed concern about the alleged indoctrination of children by devotees who volunteer at public schools and propagate the ''Educare''/''Education in Human Values'' teachings. The European Commission answered a question of a member of the European Parliament about the accusations of sexual abuse of childeren on October 1, 2001. [http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat/2002/ce093/ce09320020418en01260126.pdf] The United States Department of State has issued a travel warning about a "prominent local religious leader" under the section Andhra Pradesh without mentioning Sathya Sai Baba explicitly. Since about June 2004 embassy or consulate staff in India confirm that they referred to Sathya Sai Baba in the travel warning. The warning was placed as a result of the notarized petitions by several alleged victims even though they have never filed formal charges in India. The BBC TWO documentary ''Secret Swami'' showed two American men under their real names who testified about Sathya Sai Baba's sexual abuse when they were still young and his manipulation of them. The former secretary of the Home minister of Andhra Pradesh, V.P.B. Nair who came from of a police background expressed his firm belief that the four assailants in 1993 had unnecessarily and illegally been shot by the police. Both Premanand and Nair wanted the case to be re-opened and believed that it had been silenced to prevent revelations about illegal practices by Sathya Sai Baba and his organizations. In the documentary, Premanand showed that he could perform, seemingly the same acts, or at least some of them, as Sathya Sai Baba that the latter claims to be miracles. Dr. Michael Goldstein, International Chairman of the ''Sri Sathya Sai Organisations'', stated in the documentary that it was against his "heart and conscience" to initiate or approve of a proper legal process to investigate the allegations against Sathya Sai Baba. Isaac Tigrett, a prominent follower and co-founder of the Hard Rock Cafe, states clearly that his admiration for the guru will not change even if the charges of paedophilia and murder were proved beyond all doubt. ==Views on the guru== Some ex-followers believe in the truth of the allegations but at the same time refuse to retract the stories of miracle that they claim to have experienced directly, for example answers to prayers which they attribute to him or clairvoyance during an interview. Hence quite a lot of ex-followers believe that while he has ''siddhis'' (psychic abilities) it is only because he is a powerful rakshasa or demon. Other ex-followers such as David Bailey and Hari Sampath, an Indian national, consider Baba a cheat and believe that some of the miracles are real but are mistakenly attributed to Sathya Sai Baba. They believe that when a follower prays to Baba while having faith that he is God, God will listen to his prayer, in spite of his mistaken belief. Sceptics such as Premanand believe him to be an out and out cheater and charlatan while his followers are but gullible at worst, naïve at best, and are all suffering from the ''true-believer syndrome '' (belief in supernatural explanations for events caused by wishful thinking in spite of proof of natural explanations). Tal Brooke, an American evangelical Christian who says his book about Sai Baba was banned in India sees him as a false prophet and an Antichrist, as predicted in the Bible. Anti-cult movements consider Baba just one of many cult leaders, though an exceptionally successful one, with the usual sexual abuse, false claims about himself, false miracles, propaganda, mind control, and misappropriation of funds to enrich the coterie at the top of the organization. Finally, the view of the followers on the guru is identical to the claims made by Baba about himself. They believe that the allegations are just passing clouds that have accompanied the lives of all avatars that are part of the leelas of his life. Some followers say that the allegations have been made by people who are criminals themselves and try to distract people from that fact by instead accusing Baba of being a criminal. Some followers believe that the allegations that Baba performs acts that can be interpreted as sexually intended are true but that he must have good reasons for them, like helping the young men with sexual problems or to awaken their kundalini. Tigrett believes the allegations are true but is at a loss to explain them saying that Sai Baba is an enigma. ==Books by Sai Baba or by his followers== (Note: Hundreds of English language book titles have been written by Sai Baba and his followers) *Goldthwait, John “Purifying the Heart” (2002) ISBN 81-7208-339-4 *Guillemin, Madeleine “Who is in the Driving Seat?” (2000) ISBN 0-9583617-0-3 *Hislop, John ''My Baba and I'' ISBN 81-7208-050-6 *Kasturi, Narayana ''Sathyam Sivam Sundaran Part I, II, III & IV'' [http://satya-sai.tripod.com/literature/resources.htm available online in Microsoft Word format] *Krystal, Phyllis “The Ultimate Experience” ISBN 81-7208-038-7 *Mazzoleni Don Mario ''A Catholic Priest Encounters Sai Baba'' *Murphet, Howard ''Man of Miracles'' (1971) 0333-91770-7 *Priddy, Robert “'Source of the Dream'” (1998) ISBN 1-57863-028-2 *Sandweiss, Samuel H. ''The holy man ..... and the psychiatrist'' (1975) ISBN 0-9600958-1-0 *Sandweiss, Samuel H “Spirit and the Mind” (1985) ISBN 81-7208-056-5 *Thomas, Joy “Life is a Game – Play it” ISBN 81-7208-175-8 *Sathya Sai Baba [http://www.saibabalinks.org/booksaibaba.htm Many online books] *Schulman, Arnold ''Baba'' (1971) Out of print but available in some public libraries == Books by sceptics and critics == *Beyerstein, Dale Dr. (1994) ''Sai Baba's miracles: an overview'' [http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex_baba/engels/articles/p_holbach/dbbooke/cont.htm available online] *Brooke, Tal ''Avatar of the Night'' [http://www.scp-inc.org/president/index.php] *Basava Premanand ''The Murders in Sai Baba's bedroom'' *Priddy, Robert ''The End of the Dream'' published and edited by Basava Premanand ==Other books== *Brown, Mick ''The Spiritual Tourist'' (1998), chapter 4 ''In The House of God'' ISBN 1-58234-034-X Bloomsbury Publising *Haraldsson, Erlendur PhD ''Miracles are my visiting cards - An investigative inquiry on Sathya Sai Baba, an Indian mystic with the gift of foresight believed to perform modern miracles'' (1997 revised and updated edition) ISBN 81-86822-32-1 *[http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/sbresearchbib1.htm Annoted research bibliography in three parts] part 1, Items of a scholarly or academic nature or provenance, collected by Brian Steel *[http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/sbresearchbib2.htm Annoted research bibliography in three parts] part 2, Work Critical of SSB and his Mission by non-devotees (including ex-devotees), collected by Brian Steel *[http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/sbresearchbib3.htm Annotated research bibliography in three parts] part 3, A Basic Bibliography of Works about Sathya Sai Baba by the SSO and his Devotees, collected by Brian Steel ==External links== ===Official websites and websites of followers=== *[http://www.sathyasai.org/ Sathya Sai Official Web Site (has Baba's discourses, Baba's voice singing Gayatri and bhajans)] *[http://www.radiosai.org/journals/Vol_03/Index.htm/ Radiosai Monthly journal on Sri Sathya Sai Baba] **[http://www.sathyasai.org/intro/cults.htm Detailed rebuttal of the cult allegation from official website] *[http://www.saibabalinks.org/saibaba.htm/ Saibabalinks, a website with exhaustive number of links to teachings of Sathya Sai Baba, service activites, miracles etc ] *[http://www.sathyasaibaba.org/ SathyaSaiBaba.org] *[http://www.psychics.co.uk/saibaba/homepage.html Sathya Sai Baba] *[http://www.einterface.net/gamini/threesai.html Three Sai Baba] *[http://www.primalspirit.com/marylynn1_1baba.htm Sathya Sai Baba, Avatar] *[http://www.sathyasai.org/inform/tustin.htm#tustin.contents American book center] *[http://www.eaisai.com/baba/ USA based unofficial website of followers] *[http://www.angeltowns.com/members/tanik/PREMSAI.htm Internet copy of unedited discourses, some links do not work] *[http://www.vahini.org/downloads free downloads of over 30 books] *[http://www.eaisai.com/baba free downloads of Baba's lectures] *[http://www.radiosai.org/Pages/Thought.asp Thought for the Day, written by Baba] *[http://music.sshvosc.org/ Collection of Bhajan songs] *[http://www.journeywithsai.com/ Site of Sathya Sai Society, Telok Blangah] *[http://www.kingdomofsai.org/ Kingdomofsai, a website with Audio downloads and other materials] *[http://www.osaibaba.com/ Site of San Francisco Sai Team] *[http://www.saibaba.ws/ Saibaba.ws, a website with Videoclips, Miracle Stories, Experiences, Service Activities, Discourses] *[http://www.saibabaforbeginners.com/ Saibabaforbeginers, a website meant for beginers about Sri Sathya Sai Baba] *[http://www.saibabaofindia.com/ SaibabaofIndia, a private site dedicated to Sri Sathya Sai Baba] *[http://www.saibhajans.net/ Saibhajans, a website with large collections of Bhajans, Mantras, Discourses etc. Require Registration] *[http://http://laluni.helloyou.ws/askbaba/ AskBaba, a website with downloadable books, informative guides ot Prasanthi Nilayam etc] *[http://www.lordsaibaba.com/ Saionline, a website with MP3, video downloads, life history of Sathya Sai Baba etc] *[http://www.sathyasaibaba.org/media.htm/ Website with high resolution photographs] *[http://www.saicast.org/ Saicast, a website for streaming videos] ===Websites of critical former followers, skeptics and other critics=== *[http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/ Concerned former Dutch devotees of Sathya Sai Baba] Extensive website that contains scholarly studies and videos of alleged materializations *[http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/ Robert Priddy's extensive website about the Sathya Sai Baba and the Sathya Sai organisation] *[http://home.chello.no/~reirob/ Myths promoted by Sathya Sai Baba] another wesbite by Robert Priddy *[http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/index.html Brian Steel's scholarly website about Sathya Sai Baba] *[http://www.saiguru.net/english/ Allegations concerning Sathya Sai Baba] Multi lingual critical website of ex-followers *[http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/ Sai Baba and The Field of Righteousness] ex-follower's critical website, not maintained since 2001 *[http://www.indian-skeptic.org/html/is_v12/12-4-12.htm Anonymous letter to B. Premanand about sexual abuse of young men and boys, “Betrayal” by SSB (1998)] *[http://www.apologeticsindex.org/s11.html Anton Hein's apologetics index] *[http://www.skepdic.com/saibaba.html Sai Baba] Robert Todd Carrol's skeptic dictionary *[http://www.saipetition.net Public petition for official investigations of Sathya Sai Baba and his worldwide organizations] internet petition founded by concerned ex-followers ===Other articles and websites=== *[http://www.dci.dk/?artikel=572&emne=Sai%20Baba Guru, Miracle Worker, Religious Founder: Sathya Sai Baba] long article by Dr. Reinhart Hummel on the website of the Dialog Center (1984) ===Media articles=== *[http://www.saiguru.net/english/news/021201nytafriend.htm A Friend in India to All the World] article in the New York Times by journalist Keith Bradsher December 1, 2002 *[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/3813469.stm Sai Baba: God-man or con man?] short BBC article discussing Basava Premanand's battle against SSB and announcing its 2004 TV documentary ''Secret Swami'' *[http://home.chello.no/~reirob/Bitten.htm "I lost the desire to live" B. N. was a follower of Sai Baba for 17 years] article by Bettina Vilmun, translated from the Danish daily national newspaper B.T. (tabloid) (January 312002) *[http://archive.salon.com/people/feature/2001/07/25/baba/index.html Untouchable? Sai Baba: Pedophile or God incarnate?] Michelle Golberg's major article in salon.com online magazine (2001) *[http://www.saiguru.net/english/media/001028divine.htm Divine Downfall] Mick Brown's article about the sexual abuse allegations in The Telegraph newspaper UK (Oct. 2000) *[http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/engels/witnesses/frameset.html?page=matthijs ‘The truth will prevail...’ a Sai-devotee’s struggle for disenchantment] by Matthijs van der Meer, originally published in the Dutch New Age magazine ''Spiegelbeeld'' October issue 2000 ===Rebuttals of criticisms=== *[http://www.saibaba-aclearview.com/ SAI BABA and SEX: A Clear View] Ram Das Awle's attempt to reconcile the allegations with the claims of Sathya Sai Baba *[http://www.geocities.com/the_sai_critic/ Follower's response to the allegations] ===Comments and criticisms of this article=== *Steel, Brian [http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/sbresearchbib2.htm] "''An interesting and serious attempt to present a balanced picture of SSB. However, this long article is a good illustration of the strengths and weaknesses of Wiki digests and of its philosophy of Free Content (allowing use by anyone and editing by anyone) since, although both 'sides' are represented in this case [..], some sections of the Wiki essay are in a constant state of flux as supporters and critics of SSB vie for supremacy for their point of view, with occasional injections of propaganda and malice.''" 1926 births Sathya Sai Baba Indian religious figures Intersexual Purported telepaths Purported psychokineticists
Sathya Sai Baba
Sathya Sai Baba is Love. If you don´t like Sai Baba, please keep the Love. Testing --- thats a wonderful quote, whoever has written it here (above). As Sri Sathya Sai Baba says there is a need to have capacity to receive Love too. Lets pray to Him that the ignorant over here will soon have the capacity to receive Love from all. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------- --- It has been a couple of weeks since i have suggested certain changes under the title "SOME SUGGESTIONS" in the page but the changes haven't been done. Please update the changes as soon as possible. I did not update the changes as i did not want to interfere with the "objectivity" of the page. --- SOME SUGGESTIONS 1. In External links, please add not just discussion groups where "pornographic and abusive language" are used, but give links to discussion group on Sri Sathya Sai Baba, where discussions on Love, Service and Compassion are done. There are many such discussion groups, am sure you are aware of that. Please add at least some of those into the listings. 2. Websites of followers are very short as compared to Websites of critics. So you need to update these listings. I can give you a minimum of 50 website URLs if you request them. 3. References - Links should not be primarily slanted anti-SSB. There should be positive thoughts too in the section, qualitatively and quantitatively. 4. In books for Sai Baba, please give the link to Sri Sathya Sai Books and Publications Trust. 5. In the section on Media and government, the selection has only been partial. There are hundreds of articles which are appearing in everyday newspapers speaking about SSB in an objective angle, yet not slanted and negative. You need to take all those things into consideration. You can go to websites of many of Indian publications and you will get data on the same. Don't just restrict to India Today, who used the whole issue as a marketing issue for their anniversary celebration. SSB on front cover will obviously attract attention. 6. There is a necessity to revamp sections like 'history and origins', 'teachings', 'practices', 'organisations' etc. 7. Try getting primary data on SSB rather than secondary data. A operations researcher/statistician/scientist/analyst will tell you the importance of primary data as compared to secondary data. So do visit Prasanthi Nilayam. Please don't restrict yourself to: this guy said that, this person said this etc... ------------ Please talk about what you want to write in the page Sathya Sai Baba. and DO NOT use this page to advertise petitions. - User:Kaysov 0430 19 Jan 2004 UTC What should be added is that 1. the Sathya Sai central trust is the largest single recipient of overseas donations in India even though the Sathya Sai Central Trust rarely asks for donations. 2. there are well documented allegations of sexual abuse of young men by Sathya Sai Baba (SSB). That his alleged homosexuality is in contradiction with his claim to be pure and his teaching about chastity 3. there is good reason to believe that the birth date of 23 november 1926 is a fabrication. According to his school register he was born in 1929. Ex-followers of SSB accuse him of having changed the date to match a prediction by the Indian guru Aurobindo. 4. SSB is a hermaphrodite if we may believe various independent testimonies or performs a trick to make young men and boys to believe that he can change himself into a woman 5. the PM Vajpahee is a follower of SSB 6. the president of India Abdul Kalam visited Sathya Sai Baba's main ashram 7. there has been a documentary called 'Seduced by Sai Baba' on Danish TV which showed young men who claimed that they had been sexually abused by Sathya Sai Baba. 8. SSB's extraordinary claims of omnipotence and omniscience have been proven to be untrue by the skeptic Dale Beyerstein. 9. SSB claims to be a purna avatar like Krishna 10. the scholar Brian Steel and ex-follower found out that the original Telegu discourses were heavily edited. 11. even some ex-follower can't find a rational explanation for the miracles that they have experienced when they were a follower. Some ex-followers refuse to retract the miracles that they claim to have experienced. 12. quite a lot of people defected from the organization after ex-follower David Bailey published his Findings. 13. SSB assertions about magnetism shows huge discprepancies with generally accepted scientific knowledge about this subject 14. it has been proven that SSB sometimes uses sleight of hand for his materializations. Not only in the movies online but it has also been seen by so many people. The word credible in the article is too weak. 15. SSB wants his followers not to use the internet. Ex-followers and critical outsiders see this as SSB's way keep his followers. Followers see this as a good protection against the poison of calumny. 16. SSB's teaching are an eclectic mixture from Hinduism 17. The US government has issued a travel warning against SSB, in the section crime in Andhra Pradesh 18. ex-followers accuse him to be a dangerous quack 19. in contradiction to the current article (24 Jan 2004) the size of the contributions of the Sathya Sai Central Trust to the water project in Andhra Pradesh are disputed. User:Andries 24 Jan 2004 ---- Andries, can you please use the "Show Preview" button. You have already made 19 saves in 1 hour. I've messaged you at User_talk:Andries. User:Jay 11:10, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC) * Okay I will. User:Andries 11:20, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC) --- ==Still to do by Andries== *
07:13, 30 Dec 2004 210.214.44.150
07:38, 28 Dec 2004 210.214.48.168
These edits all have a very slanted view. I have reverted twice so it's up to someone else. User:Grenavitar ==Comments by anon== This page cannot be used as a bulletin board for those obsessed with criticsing Sri Sathya Sai Baba. If this is a bulletin board which is meant to be objective, its time that those obsessed with those critising Sri Sathya Sai Baba accept other view points too. It cannot be a one sided view. Acting as if one is objective, by putting in some positives here and there, which are clearly surrounded by negatives would not help. Writing the positives as if Sri Sathya Baba is a fraud with hidden agend is clerly depicted throughout this bulletin board. I have also found that any changes brought about in the content is changed by some so called objective 'experts'. The critics before questioning others as vandalists will really help in asking the questions to themselves... Am i "objective?" No..No..No..Am a true hypocrat... :How does adding that thought for the day thing active your aims? If you feel that any of the reported critisms are unfair feel free to add reference comments to the the article to that effect.User:Geni 13:19, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC) Some of you being the spokesmen of what Sri Sathya Sai Baba has done and not done, may be reading through his literatures will certainly help. The reason being that whatever is written in this website with respect to his teachings itself is far away from what He teaches. So better acquaint oneself with HIS teachings first. There has been attempts on my part to change some of my content but it has all been deleted by the officeal "knowledgeable" people who claim to know much about Baba without even making a visit to HIS abode. Amen...Reading HIS speeches itself will bring a lot of solace and peace. If you are really interested in understanding about HIM thats the basic that you can do. On the other hand, if it is ego satisfaction that is required by maintaining, all these mud-slinging in the name of "objectivity" please continue...Am surprised that you kept the earlier comment. Because even that was deleted at a point of time... :redgadless of what his speaches may or may not do they are not encyopedic.User:Geni 13:21, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC) :The full text of the ''Thought of the Day'' Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not on Wikipedia. I think we can, though, add a link to the [http://www.radiosai.org/Pages/Thought.asp Thought of the Day] at the bottom of the page under Sathya_Sai_Baba#External_links. —User:Markaci·User_talk:Markaci·Special:Contributions/Markaci 18:39, 2005 Feb 1 (UTC) --- SOME SUGGESTIONS 1. In External links, please add not just discussion groups where "pornographic and abusive language" are used, but give links to discussion group on Sri Sathya Sai Baba, where discussions on Love, Service and Compassion are done. There are many such discussion groups, am sure you are aware of that. Please add at least some of those into the listings. 2. Websites of followers are very short as compared to Websites of critics. So you need to update these listings. I can give you a minimum of 50 website URLs if you request them. 3. References - Links should not be primarily slanted anti-SSB. There should be positive thoughts too in the section, qualitatively and quantitatively. 4. In books for Sai Baba, please give the link to Sri Sathya Sai Books and Publications Trust. 5. In the section on Media and government, the selection has only been partial. There are hundreds of articles which are appearing in everyday newspapers speaking about SSB in an objective angle, yet not slanted and negative. You need to take all those things into consideration. You can go to websites of many of Indian publications and you will get data on the same. Don't just restrict to India Today, who used the whole issue as a marketing issue for their anniversary celebration. SSB on front cover will obviously attract attention. 6. There is a necessity to revamp sections like 'history and origins', 'teachings', 'practices', 'organisations' etc. 7. Try getting primary data on SSB rather than secondary data. A operations researcher/statistician/scientist/analyst will tell you the importance of primary data as compared to secondary data. So do visit Prasanthi Nilayam. Please don't restrict yourself to: this guy said that, this person said this etc... ---- --- It has been a couple of weeks since i have suggested certain changes under the title "SOME SUGGESTIONS" in the page but the changes haven't been done. Please update the changes as soon as possible. I did not update the changes as i did not want to interfere with the "objectivity" of the page. --- :okay, I basically agree with suggestions 2-5 and disagree with 1 and 7. Not sure what you mean with nr. 6.How should these sections revamped? User:Andries 13:14, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::Andries, with all due respect, this article is helplessly biased against the subject of the article (my guess is that 80% of the article is critical). Suggestions by anon 1 and 7 will be a good attempt to add some balance to this article. I can help if you don't want to it. --User:Zappaz 04:57, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::well, it was referred to by the press in 2004 so it cannot be bad. The question is not about balance but about NPOV. And the abusive and pornographic yahoo groups is pro- and con- ,not necessarily critical. It just happens to be the main discussion forum. With regards to 7, this is first source, not 2nd and 3rd source and is not recommended by Wikipedia standards. According to the guidelines we have to use the best sources (Nagel, Steel, Priddy, Badaev) available and in this case they happen to be critical. Please find better sources if you can. User:Andries 07:45, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC) :::OK. I could take the challenge, but note that will not be pretty... I would much prefer that you take the challenge yourself and write for the enemy, for once. As per your statement about being about NPOV and not about balance (after your discussions Anti-cult movement, issue if 1st sources, and that the only sources you found are of critics, I take that with huge pinch of salt....! --User:Zappaz 16:50, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::::Okay, I will rewrite it a bit. Hmmm, I have to admit that you have a point with the 1st sources. User:Andries 16:55, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC) --- As it has been mentioned that there is agreement with points 2-5, i would not like to get on further explanations with it. Regarding point 1 am not able to understand the point of difference. Just like the way it has been mentioned that there is a group which can speak about pornography and what not, there are yahoo groups which speaks about Divinity, Peace etc. To add "objectivity" here are some points: The number of members in the webstie that speak about pornography is only 897 while memberships of other groups have crossed 2300. Naturally and obviously, as the whole world are not full of perverts. And who are we to decide which discussion groups should be listed here or not? So please list the following discussion links too: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saibabalist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saibabanews/ If you have trouble adding it, i will be happy to make the modifications... ==Purported cult== This material is from the article List of purported cults, which we are paring down to a pure list. Editors here can best evaluate its statements and decide how to integrate it into this article. Thanks, -User:Willmcw 20:55, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC) :''Sathya Sai Baba :''Some ex-members like the late Glen Meloy consider the Sathya Sai Organisation that was founded by Sathya Sai Baba a cult. The reason is that these ex-members say that the allegations of sexual abuse carried out by Sathya Sai Baba are correct and the Sathya Sai organization refuses to properly investigate these. Ex-member Robert Priddy who maintains an extensive website about Sathya Sai Baba believes that it is a secretive, autocratic personality cult that has strong cultic characteristics. More than 800 people have signed an internet petition requesting impartial investigation regarding accusations of sexual abuse charges and murder. [http://www.saipetition.net/] :''Followers purport Sathya Sai Baba's group is not a cult because it displays atypical characteristics like charity and tolerance towards other beliefs. Also, it does not claim to be the only way to God and truth, encourages a critical assesment of the guru before accepting him, and does not advocate proselytizing. They point out that often cults will expect their adherents to abandon worldly duties and to severe ties with their families, which is something Sathya Sai Baba has explicitly said not to do. :''References: :*''[http://www.sathyasai.org/intro/cults.htm Detailed rebuttal of cult allegation on the website of the international Sathya Sai organisation] :*''[http://www.exbaba.com Netherlands based website of concerned ex-followers] :*''[http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/ Robert Priddy's extensive website, also a lot about cults in general] -------------- When are the suggested changes (1-7) going to be updated in the discussion page? :We only agreed about 2-5 and I already sized down the critical weblinks a bit. I'll try to size down the allegation here too. User:Andries 07:41, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Vandalizing the page == Deleting, without explanation, links along, with important templates and categories, is vandalism and if it continues we will have to have the page protected. If anyone objects to any of the links, they should act in an adult manner and bring their concerns here to be discussed. I reviewed the "rebuttal" links and found one which was clearly not useful for our readers, a Yahoo group that is devoted to collecting disparaging information. I deleted that link, with an explanatory edit summary. Please explain why the other links should be deleted. -User:Willmcw 01:18, May 6, 2005 (UTC) -------- you are right willmcw, it has happened with me too. This was when i tried to add certain content which of course, was about the good work undertaken by Sri Sathya Sai Baba. Some fellows have deleted all those changes without any discussion. An idea: How about reviewing the whole page as such? We will discuss how each and every paragraph should be written, right from the intro paragraph. There is a lack of objectivity in this page and i feel, presumably i may be wrong, that there is too much of mud-slinging in this page against SSB. :Go for it. Be bold. Cheers, -User:Willmcw 22:03, May 24, 2005 (UTC) ::considering the contiversal nature of the subject perhaps it would be better to lay out your suggestions on the talk page first.User:Geni 23:59, 24 May 2005 (UTC) :::Exactly, which is what the anon was proposing doing (''I think''). Let me also add that it would help the discussion if everyone uses a name and signs their talk-page contributions. Registration is free and actually allows for greater anonymity. Sign by adding four tildes (~) at the end. It iis definitely better to discus matters here, rather than reverting without communicating. Cheers, -User:Willmcw 02:35, May 25, 2005 (UTC) --- ==Service activities== Hii, you all can address me as monkey. First suggestion: We need to document all the service activites undertaken by SSB. Is there a need for creating a new subheading for the same in the page? Or can we put it up somewhere else in the page? Monkey Thanks for contributing, Monkey. A subheaduing is easy to create. Just type two equal signs on either side of the section title - they'll format it as a section header. See the example above. Note that only the initial word and proper nouns are capitalized. Cheers, -User:Willmcw 01:07, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC) :Just a reminder that the article already states several times that SSB's followers and his organizations are involved in service projects and charity. User:Andries 12:37, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Refreshments== Made some changes in the page. 1. Added three pictures. One is the Sarva Dharma Symbol, second is a picture about Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Learning and the third one is about Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Medical Sciences. 2. Added more weblinks about Sri Sathya Sai Baba. 3. Added media reports that caem on service activities undertaken by Sri Sathya Sai Seva Organisations. Any feedback please discuss here. Thanks monkeyishere. :Thanks for your contributions. But we will need to cut back on them. Wikipedia is not a web directory. We don't add links just for the sake of adding them. Also, where did you get the photos? Did you take them yourself? Cheers, -User:Willmcw 02:40, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC) :Most articles have from 1-20 links. This article has 53. Without losing the official websites, or necessary-for-NPOV critical sites, we need to cut this down. To begin with, we need to remember that the purpose of adding external links to articles is to provide readers of the article with additional information. Forums generally have little information (and much opinion) so I suggest dropping all the forums. News mentions should be included only to cite specific facts, not to serve as a list of press clippings. Usually we should only have one link to any given domain, unless there there are reasons for additional links to specific pages. See wikipedia:external links. Cheers, -User:Willmcw 06:23, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
Sathya Sai Baba
Sathya Sai Baba is a controversial India guru who has millions of followers both organized and unorganized all over the world. He is the founder of a new religious movement called the Sathya Sai Organisation. new religious movements
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