Saint

==General definition of saint== In general, the term Saint refers to someone who is exceptionally virtuous and holy. It can be applied to both the living and the dead and is an acceptable term in most of the world's popular religions. The Saint is held up by the community as an example of how we all should act, and his or her life story is usually recorded for the edification of future generations. The process of officially recognizing a person as a saint, practiced by some churches, is called canonization. ===Etymology=== The term Saint is derived from the Latin Sanctus meaning “Holy”. This is a direct translation from the Greek word άγιος (agios) also meaning “Holy”. In its original scriptural usage it simply means “Holy” or “Sanctified”. In this form it can be applied to a “Holy” person, a place (αγιον αρος - The Holy Mountain), a thing, such as Scripture itself (αγιογράφικα - Holy Writing), or even God (αγιον Πνεῦμα - The Holy Spirit). But very soon the early Christians began to using the term “Saint” more narrowly to refer to a specific, exemplary individual. (For a lexical explanation, see Liddel & Scott. [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%23525]) The earliest known occurrence of άγιος as "Saint" seems to be in ''The Shepherd of Hermas'', chapter 5 (or 13, depending on how chapters are counted), verse 2. "The Shepherd" was authored at about the same time as ''2 Peter''. ====Short form==== Abbreviation for the term Saint is usually “St.” In cases where multiple Saints are referenced SS. is the norm. ===Historicity=== Some theologians believe that many people venerated as Saints never actually existed. The polite term for such "Saints" is ''ahistorical''. Sorting out exactly which Saints are ''ahistorical'' is difficult, because of the larger difficulty of falsifiability: the absence of independent records of a Saint's existence doesn't prove she or he never existed; indeed there are no specific records of the existence of ''many'' people who lived before the 20th century. The Acta Sanctorum (hagiography work) of the Bollandists forms a major part of the historiography of named Saints. There are a large number of Christianity saints with what appear to be pagan names. Most likely they were pagans who converted to Christianity and subsequently became Saints. However, it is possible that some pre-Christian deities (especially in Rome's area) were accidentally adopted as saints. It is thought that some cult (religion) were “Christianized” in a fairly direct manner. The basis for this is usually a similarity of names. For example, it is now commonly asserted that Brigid of Ireland was based on the Celtic goddess Brigid. The goddess was popular long before Christianity reached Ireland. Another possibility is the melding of the actual life of the Saint with myths related to pre-Christian gods and heroes (see Comparative religion). There are some striking parallels to the events portrayed in the lives of certain saints and fables such as Androcles and the Lion. ==Definition specific to religion== ===Christianity=== ====Roman Catholicism==== In the Catholicism church, the title of Saint - with a capital 'S' - refers to a person who has been formally canonization (officially recognized) by the Church. This takes place sometime after the person’s death and by this definition, never refers to a living person. Formal Canonization is a lengthy process often taking many years, even centuries. The individual is thoroughly investigated by the church and often a number of visions, miracles, or of the holiness and good deeds the person done while on earth in order to be declared a Saint. Also, by this definition there are many people in heaven who are not Saints simply because their lives were not exemplary (though they still went to heaven) and the church does not wish to uphold the individual as an example to be emulated. They are called saints (lowercase 's'). Contrary to popular belief, Saints are not worshiped - this would violate the Commandments - but they are asked for help or to pray for a person. Saints are usually considered to be specific intercessors for specific problems as well. The term Patron Saint usually defines this purpose. Once a person has been declared a Saint, the body of the Saint is considered to be holy. In past centuries, the bones of saints were distributed as holy artifacts. The ring on the finger of Catholic bishops contains the relic of a Saint. In modern times, however, there is a growing trend to show respect for the body of a Saint by leaving it alone and buried. ====Eastern Orthodoxy==== In the Eastern Orthodoxy Church a Saint is defined as anyone who is currently in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not. By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various Prophets, the Angels and Archangels are all given the title of "Saint". While there is a formal service of Glorification in which a Saint is recognized by the entire church, there is no process of investigation. Popularity is often a key to the Church recognizing a Saint. There are numerous small local followings of countless saints that have not reached the popularity to be recognized by the entire church. For the Orthodox, such recognition is unnecessary. It is believed that God reveals his Saints to us, often by miracles or visions. Example: In Orthodox countries it is often the custom to re-use graves after 3 to 5 years because of the limited space. Bones are respectfully washed and placed in an ossuary, often with the person's name written on the skull. Occasionally when a body is exhumed something miraculous occurs to reveal the person's Sainthood. There have been numerous occurrences where the exhumed bones suddenly give off a wonderful fragrance, like flowers; or sometimes the body is incorruptibility, just as it was on the day the person died, despite having not been embalmed (traditionally the Orthodox do not embalm the dead) and having been buried for 3 years. The reason relics are considered sacred is because, for the Orthodox, the separation of body and soul is unnatural. Body and soul both comprise the person, and in the end, body and soul will be reunited; therefore, the body of a saint shares in the “Holiness” of the soul of the saint. Because the Church shows no true distinction between the living and the dead (the Saints are alive in Heaven), the Orthodox treat the saints as if they were still here. They venerate them and ask for their prayers, and consider them brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. Saints are venerated and loved and asked to intercede for our salvation, but it should be clearly understood that they are not Worshiped; their holiness is from God who alone is worthy of Adoration. As Christ says in the Gospels, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." (Matt 4:10). The relics of Saints are highly respected, even more so than the Roman Catholics. As a general rule only clergy will touch relics in order to move them or carry them in procession, however, in veneration the faithful will kiss the relic to show love and respect toward the saint. Every altar in every Orthodox church contains relics, usually of martyrs. The Church building interiors are covered with the Icons of saints. In the Orthodox Church, baptism is the moment one is born again into Christ. The person entering the baptismal font is not the same person that emerges. It is for this reason that the person is given a new name; always the name of a saint. What is proper is that the person no longer goes by his old name because that person is dead, but uses the new name exclusively. It is also common that instead of birthdays, the person celebrates his Saints Day, the day on the Calendar of Saints ascribed to that particular saint. In Orthodox tradition some saints are known by the title ''Equal-to-apostles'' in recognition of their r�le in evangelism countries. ====Christianity in general==== In many Protestant churches, the word is used more generally to refer to anyone who is a Christian. This is similar in usage to Paul of Tarsus numerous references. In this sense, anyone who is within the Body of Christ is “Holy” because of their relationship with Jesus. However, high-church Anglicanism and Episcopalianism use the term "saint" similarly to the manner in which Catholics use it. =====Latter-day Saints===== Members of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints follow the Protestant tradition described above, referring to themselves as "Latter-day Saints", or simply "Saints". This is usually preferred over the nickname "Mormons". ===Islam=== Although not recognized by Islamic scholars, the veneration of saints and tombs or shrine in Islam is very widespread and includes all geographical areas of the Muslim world, including the conservative Arabian peninsula. Saints are believed to have a power of intercession with God (Allah), and thus the ability to perform miracles and to give power or blessing, known as baraka. In most Muslim countries there are religious festivities associated with saints, such as Urs festivals in India and Pakistan or the annual Mawlid in Egypt. On these days, the local saint(s) is/are venerated, and blessings are expected. Believers are nevertheless careful to distinguish between the blessings of the Prophets of Islam (particularly Moses, Jesus and Muhammad) and those of the saints. Saints are an important component of folk religion Islam and are associated with Sufism, which includes many of the mystical branches of Islam. Sufism has several orders with precepts ( tariqa ) for students ( murid ) who seek to follow the teachings of a saint. Although saints are acknowledged by many sufis, Sufism distances itself from the more animistic and cult (religion) aspects of the veneration of saints, which includes, as in popular Christianity, all types of religious paraphernalia and popular rituals. ===Judaism=== The closest notion in Judaism is the tzaddik ''(currently points to a disambiguation page)'', a righteous person. The Talmud says that at any time at least 36 tzaddikim are living among us: they are anonymous, but it is for their sake that the world is not destroyed. The Talmud and the Kabbalah offer various ideas about the nature and role of these 36 tzaddikim. The term can also be used generically to mean any righteous or saintly person. ===Hinduism=== Saints are also recognized in Hinduism. However, unlike the Roman Catholic Church, no formal process is required to acknowledge a person as a saint. *Raghavendra Swami, one of the most famous Hindu saints was believed to have performed miracles during his lifetime and continues to bless his devotees. He espoused Vaishnavism monotheism (worship of Vishnu as Supreme God) and Dvaita philosophy. *Ramakrishna *Ramana Maharshi *Sai Baba (c. 1838 - October 15, 1918) was an Indian fakir/guru who is regarded by his Hindu and Muslim followers as a saint. *Tukaram was a great saint who was believed to have performed miracles and was a devotee of Krishna. * Sant Shiri Nunuram Sahib(1898 - 1973) , A great Saint Whose Aashram is situated in Islamkot city of Sindh Province in Pakistan. See also Sant (India) ===Buddhism=== The concept of the bodhisattva in some schools of Buddhism is in some respects comparable to that of the Christianity saint. ===Alternative religions=== In many of the more obscure religions of the world, a saint is a man or a woman who has a direct personal link or connection with God and who can put a person on the way back to God. Many gurus overtly or covertly claim to be saints, which followers may believe to be true, even if the objective evidence doesn't match a formal definition of a saint. In the modern religion of Discordianism, sainthood is given very easily. As one of the two cofounders, Kerry Thornley once said "To be a saint you don't need to do anything special, you just need to suffer a lot" Discordians don't really agree on who (or what) are saints, but fictional characters are considered "saintlier" than real people, and insanity always helps. Yossarian from Joseph Heller's Catch-22, Don Quixote, and Bokonon from Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle all appear on the Principia Discordia's list of saintly folks. ====Santeria - Voodoo==== The veneration of Catholic saints forms the basis of the Cuban Santer�a religion. In Santer�a, saints are syncretism with Yoruba deities, and are equally worshipped in churches (where they appear as saints) and in Santer�a religious festivities, where they appear as deity (orisha); however, this practice is condemned by the Roman Catholic Church. Santeria, Haitian Vodoun, Brazilian Umbanda and other similar religions adopted the Roman Catholic Saints, or the images of the saints, as representations of their own spirits/deities or 'Orishas' in Santeria and 'Lwa' in Vodoun. Although there are many similarities between Vodoun and Santeria, they are different in respect to origin and language (Vodou is French, Santeria is Spanish). The adoption of Catholic Saints was fairly common in the religions that were adapted by the slaves in the New World. It can be understood as a more recent example of the absorption of pre-Christian elements into European "Catholicism" — although with Santeria and Vodoun the native religion seems to be more dominant. Different regions of the world where Catholicism is practiced have varying ways of practicing their faith. The Catholic Church has not always condemned the practices of these "religions" or sub-sects (although there were brief local movements against Vodoun by the Church in Haiti). Perhaps the adoption of the Catholic saints is more of a testament to the durability and adaptability of religions like Vodoun. It is remarkable that Vodoun practitioners can consider themselves Catholic and Vodounists at the same time. The Catholic Trinity is made of three personalities whose exact relation is a subtle point of theology and the saints in the Spanish and French Catholic traditions were virtually worshipped too. Perhaps it is more realistic to say that elements of Catholicism were adapted into Vodoun and Santeria. ==See also== *Calendar of saints *Communion of Saints *Congregation for the Causes of Saints *List of saints *Patron saint *Intercession of saints Concepts in Hinduism Islam Saints

Saint

See: Wikipedia:WikiProject Saints. This sentence is illogical, IMO: "Though 'saints' here is a different Greek word (to be identified), which lends even further support to the word not referring to Christians in general," No, it doesn't. It's a different word. How can that lend support to 'the word' (presumably αγιος) not referring to Christians in general? That being said, I think we just need to recognize that the word ''saint'' has multiple meanings and move on, lest this article degenerate into a debate about semantics. User:ThePedanticPrick 00:24, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC) What do we want to say about saint-equivalents in other religions? (And on what page do we want to say it?) : I would say a mention of such equivalents at the bottom of the page with links to more complete articles would be appropriate. What would the equivalents be? Bhodisatvas? I think I may have heard of Hindu saints?? :: There are hindu saints and perhaps saints in other religions, certainly the term is not exclusive to christianity. This should be given coverage at the TOP of the article, though. : Regarding my above edits, I expanded the treatment of saints in Eastern Orthodoxy, and added more info that I think is common to both Western and Eastern traditions, esp. regarding relics and patron saints. But I must confess that I'm relatively new to the Eatern Orthodox traditions, and even less familiar with Roman Catholicism's practices, so please correct me if I mistakenly generalized any Eastern practices or beliefs to both East and West, or identified as strictly Eastern anything that the two have in common. Aside from the lists and dates, and maybe some local customs, I don't think there's that much difference. --User:Wesley : This difference does not necessarily mean that the Western and Eastern churches do not admit to the validity of holy individuals in the other parts of the Church, but that they are not interested in each other's lists or calendars. There must be a better wording of this sentence. Is it supposed to mean that the Catholic and Orthodox churches have no statement on the validity of saints in the opposite church? If so, how about: :In spite of this difference, the Western and Eastern churches do not hold a position on the (in)validity of the other's lists and calendars of saints, and do not consider the other's lists as relevant. Yes, it's supposed to mean that they (AFAIK) don't have an official statement or stance. And it could be worded better. Maybe instead of "... maintain that the other's lists are not relevant", "don't consider each other's lists relevant"? I think "maintain" might be too active a verb. :Have changed it Reading back over this in light of what I learned recently on the confirmation article, we probably need to adjust the paragraph on when saint's names are given; for the Eastern Orthodox, it's at chrismation since that's right after baptism, but for Roman Catholics, it would probably be after baptism, since confirmation/chrismation doesn't come until many years later. User:Wesley ---- I removed this: Within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, all church members are called "Saints", and the membership of the church "The Saints". In that faith, there is no concept of a Saint in the sense used by other Christians, only in the sense of a faithful follower of Christ. The original 12 followers of Jesus are referred to simply as the Apostle, as are the church leadership. Except for calling the church leadership apostles, which is irrelevant in this article, this is the same practice as in other Protestant denominations which is already established in the the beginning of the article. Plus it is strange to have an article that starts out saying that "the rest of this article will discuss the Catholic and Orthodox view" and then at the end tacking on one Protestant church view. User:Rmhermen 15:10 Oct 17, 2002 (UTC) == abbreviation == regarding St. and St -- checked Fowler, who says it is St for Saint, no dot (and he makes no mention of an alternative US usage). -- User:Tarquin 15:28 Dec 27, 2002 (UTC) : I'm not sure this is really correct as noted. It may be claimed by some that St is the only correct abbreviation, but St. is very frequently used, both in common writing and in historical and theological writing, at least in the United States. Pick up any historical book on religion at a bookstore in the US, and you're likely to find St. much more often than St will be found. A similar phenomenon occurs with the usage of Mr. (with dot), which is more common than Mr (no dot). --User:Delirium 11:10, Aug 25, 2003 (UTC) : An added note -- St. is also in much more common usage on Wikipedia. Take a look at St. Peter's Basilica, Basilica di San Giovanni in Laterno, List of popes, etc. To my eyes anyway St Somebody (along with Mr Somebody) actually looks wrong, and this is the first time I've ever encountered it. --User:Delirium 11:18, Aug 25, 2003 (UTC) : Some further research indicates the universal usage of St. is not in fact confined to the US either. Among many other works, the well-known ''Miracle of Theism'' by Oxford University professor John Mackie (published by Oxford University Press, 1982) uses the dot consistently. I can cite dozens of other books, American and British, if you wish, but it seems to be generally considered correct usage to use the dot, and I have no evidence that it is considere correct usage to omit it by anyone actually publishing books dealing with saints (i.e. anyone other than publishers of style and usage manuals). --User:Delirium 11:30, Aug 25, 2003 (UTC) : Doesn't wikipedia have a style guide? User:Sbwoodside 17:22, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC) I can't tell whether the phrase "Rome's area" means the part of Italy near Rome or the entire former Roman empire, so I hope somebody rewrites that phrase. --User:JerryFriedman == christian saints vs. other religions == I think that this article probably should be clearly divided (or split into two articles) along the lines of Christian saints and religious saints in general. Right now it seems as though the two are interspersed a lot. The article begins by stating the subject as New Testament saints (a SUBSET of christian no less...) but then there are major sections on saints in other religions, saints in non-Roman Catholic christian denominations etc. == Saints in "Voodoo" == Santeria, Vodoun, and other similar religions adopted the Roman Catholic Saints, or the images of the saints, as representations of their own spirits/deities or 'Orishas' in Santeria and 'Lwa' in Vodoun. Although there are many similarities between Vodoun and Santeria--which is why I think Vodoun should at least be mentioned--they are different in respect to origin and language (Vodou is French, Santeria is Spanish). I think it would be more accurate to at the least suggest that the adoption of Catholic Saints was fairly common in the religions that were adapted by the slaves in the New World--not just Santeria. Although Santeria is a great example because the etymology of the word appears to have everything to do with saints. Also, I think an interesting point can be made about the way the 'Saints' system worked when Christianity was 'expanding' (as is mentioned in the article, the adoptionof pre-christian holy people and sites). The phenomenom of santeria and vodoun adapting/adopting the Catholic faith is a more recent example of the adsorbtion of pre-Christian elements into "Catholicism"--although with Santeria and Vodoun it seems a lot more one-sided. Although different regions of the world where catholicism is practiced have varying ways practicing their faith. The Catholic Church has not really condemned the practices of these "religions" or sub-sects (although there were brief local movements against Vodoun by the Church in Haiti). Perhaps the adoption of the Catholic saints is more of a testament to the duarbility and adaptability of religions like Vodoun. It is remarkable that Vodoun practionners can consider themselves Catholic and Vodounists at the same time--although it should not be that surprising considering that the Catholic God is made of three personalities--and the saints in the Spanish and French Catholic traditions were virtually worshipped too. Perhaps it is more realistic to say that elements of Catholicism were adapted into Vodoun and Santeria--anyway, as was mentionned on this discussion page, is this the article to talk about the history and relationship of Vodoun/Santeria and the Catholic faith? ==Saints in Hinduism== In Hinduism there is no universally accepted, formal procedure to declare someone a saint. In this group of related religions called Hinduism each sect has its own saints. I believe that some medieval Tamil saints were officially declared to be so though. Almost every guru claims overtly or covertly to be a saint. User:Andries 17:38, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC) == Concerning the "Saints Name" given at Chrismation - an Orthodox Perspective == One must wonder how far the west can influence ideas in the Orthodox Church to render as almost meaningless the most profound of transformations possible for humans. Baptism and Chrismation are not empty symbols; they are reality. When a person is baptized the person that enters the water dies and a new person is born. All sins from the previous life are gone. If the person reckoned himself married before, he is not afterward; nothing that existed before baptism is left. The New person is given a new name. Henceforth and forevermore he is that new person. So to simply shrug it off and go back to using the old name is pure impiety and denies the efficacy of Baptism. Orthodox are required to go by the name given them when they are Born into Christ. If they ignore it as custom then they deny the Truth of it. User:Phiddipus 00:34, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC) ==October Anon edits questioned== Anon removed content from this paragraph. See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Saint&diff=6286225&oldid=6271020 :In the Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy churches, a saint is more particularly a person who has been canonization (officially recognized) by a Christian church. This can only take place after their death; in Roman Catholicism, this is because even the holiest person alive may fall into mortal sin at the last moment; in Eastern Orthodoxy, it is more to avoid haste and allow ample time for sober reflection on the person's life. In addition, Orthodox doctrine on this matter is that lack of formal recognition should not be taken to mean that an individual is necessarily not a saint. In many Protestant churches, the word is used more generally to refer to anyone who is a Christian. ::''"In many Protestant churches..."'' not only in protestant, but also in the original christ's church that existed in the 1st cent. :) --User:Charon.sk 10:14, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC) I don't know anything about this subject, but it seems odd, and I see that same IP also removed some odd stuff from LDS Church article. User:Hawstom - User_talk:Hawstom 19:07, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC) ::I am not sure who did the original edit you are refering to, but I have fixed this paragraph to correctly reflect both churches perspective. User:Phiddipus 00:37, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC) == Today is Dec. 2, 2004. == This entire article is doubled on itself, I will fix. User:Phiddipus 00:45, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::OK, its me again, I have spent all evening reworking this article. there are some areas that could use some expanding and clarification. I will continue to work on this article. I do have a great deal of personal knowledge concerning the Christian aspect of "Saint" and I intend to offer that knowledge doing my best to remove my own POV. I feel this reworking was necessary because of the constant repetition of the original article and in some cases the long drawn out explanation concerning the etymology that could have been summed up in a few words. This is an encyclopedic treatment, not a thesis. I welcome any comments or criticism. User:Phiddipus 14:33, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC) == meaning of "saint" == Aren't all christians called "saints" in the NT? Isn't the special meaning just created by some churches (eg. the catholic church)? Isn't the original meaning of "saint" "separated"? --User:Charon.sk 13:28, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) :The text of the New Testament is written in Greek. The term used to describe the members of the church is "Agios" which means "Holy". "Saint" is a direct latin translation: Agios = Sanctus/saint = Holy. The development of the term Saint which is used to describe people in heaven or very holy people was developed by the church long before there were any other churches. For well over a thousand years there was only one Christian denomination and they used the term Saint continually. You must understand that the revelations of Christ and the apostles required the creation of new terminology to describe what the Jews only vaguely understood; the prime example is the term "trinity". Also you must understand that the "Church" existed before the New Testament was Written. User:Phiddipus 01:54, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::Of course the church (from greek ekklesia=communitiy or congregation) existed before the NT, but I suppose you mean the catholic church. I know from history books that the cat.ch. started to exist from around 5-7 century. It's a wide span, but the cat.ch. wasn't founded like some others were, it developed step by step. There existed other beliefs and sects before the cat.ch.: there were heresies even in the times when apostles taught. The first christians were saved without a "new terminology" and the truth was completely revealed to them, so we today don't need redefining what "saint" is. To the christian who wants to follow the teaching of Christ and apostles it means someone who is saved = a christian. To someone who wants to follow some teaching of men, it might be something else - eg. what the cat.ch. teaches. --User:Charon.sk 10:07, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC) == Historicity == Hello, new here, I want to ask a few questions before I edit. Here is the first paragraph of the Historicity section of this article: Because of the formal process that the Roman Catholic Church employs to verify the eligibility of a person for �Sainthood� it is now their belief that a number of people venerated as saints, may never have actually existed. The polite term for this is ahistorical. Sorting out exactly which saints are historical is difficult, because of the larger difficulty of proving a negative: the absence of independent records of a saint's existence doesn't prove she or he never existed, because there are no specific records of the existence of many people who lived before the 20th century. The Acta Sanctorum ( hagiographical work) of the Bollandists forms a major part of the historiography of named saints. Comments/questions: 1. What is the causal connection alluded to between the formal process of canonization and the belief of some that certain Saints never existed? This is not explained. 2. The phrase, "it is now their belief..." implies that this is now the belief of the Roman Catholic Church as a whole. This is most certainly not the case. Were I to edit only this, I would change it to "some believe..." 3. The balance of the paragraph appears to contradict the notion that the Church believes these ahistorical Sainrs never really existed, since it states "the absence of records... doesn't prove he or she never existed," which appears to be a defense against the former implication. 4. As I've said, I am new here. Is it standard practice to discuss before editing? Thanks in advance for your replies. : Hello and welcome! Last question first, it isn't always necessary to discuss before editing, BUT it is encouraged if the edits are likely to be controversial, or if you just want to discuss with other editors the best way to improve part of an article. It's common to see something and say, "that needs to be a lot better than it is" but not have a clear idea right away of what should take the place of the current text. : I don't know the answer to your first question. Regarding the second, "some believe..." is probably better than the current text; even better would be to be more specific about who does and does not believe X, although that might mean just naming different groups that think one way or the other. Obviously, try to choose neutral names. :-) : I know I skipped a question, but I hope this helps. Now go ahead and edit boldly! User:Wesley 21:23, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Prayer to saints== "Saints are not prayed to, because this violates the Commandments, they are asked for help or to pray for a person." Perhaps my definition of 'prayer' is off, but if one is speaking to a saint and making a request, is that not a prayer in its most pure sense? : Ready for some serious semantic hair splitting? You might be able to say that this is prayer, for some definition of prayer. You might also be able to say that I'm praying to you if I say something like, "Pray tell, how is the weather in your part of the world?" In other words, is it prayer when a person makes a request of another living person? Of a judge or government official? The main thing here is that "prayer" to saints should be sharply distinguished from "worship" of saints, and often the concepts of prayer and worship go together naturally in people's minds. That's the confusion that the current text is trying to avoid. User:Wesley 16:58, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::Actually we have gotten off using the wrong terminology from the beginning. The term prayer is not the problem. What the person meant is more correctly stated � we do not Adore or Worship the saints, Adoration/Worship is for God alone. We do Venerate and respect the saints and ask that they pray or intercede to God for us. If prayer is understood to be a conversation then we do pray to Saints, but we do not Worship them. In general the concept springs from an acceptance that death is an illusion, that the saints are members of the church, and that they are alive; therefore, we can ask them to intercede to God on our behalf the same way we ask each other. User:Phiddipus 18:10, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) == saints outside of Saints == I've noticed that in this page, for Catholicism, it speaks of the venerated title of Saint, but not the other use of the word. Anyone who is in heaven, is by definition, considered a saint, and can be asked for prayers. That is not to say their life is worthy of veneration, or bestowing of a title, but that they can be asked for intercession: Part 1: Section 2: Chapter 3: Article 9: Paragraph 5: Intercession of Saints (#) 956 "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church moire firmly in holiness.... [T]hey do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped." ''Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life. I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.'' I wouldn't dare modify any wikipedia page, as my grammar is horrible -- but I thought this was worth saying. --User:Trgiaol 00:21, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC) == Bad grammar mars most important sentence == Surely the topic of sainthood should cover the Roman Catholic definition of Sainthood. It seems to me that this would be the most important part of an encyclopedic entry on sainthood. Yet Wikipedia has this sentence to define Roman Catholic Sainthood: ::The individual is thoroughly investigated by the church and often a number of visions, miracles, or of the holiness and good deeds the person done while on earth in order to be declared a Saint. This is not a sentence. It does not say anything meaningful. It is nonsense. Please, would someone who knows the Roman Catholic definition of sainthood fix this sentence. User:Nroose 20:51, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

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