
Reichsgau Wartheland (initially Reichsgau Posen) was the name given by Nazis to the territory of Greater Poland which was occupied, annexed and directly incorporated into the German Third Reich after defeating the Polish army in 1939 (as opposed to the General Government, GG). The main parts of Reichsgau Wartheland had been part of Prussia (later Germany) for most of the period between 1793 and 1919 (refer to "Greater Poland through history" section below). Area: 43,905 km² Population: 4,693,700 (1941)
This territory was inhabited mostly by Poles, while having a significant German minority. During World War II, many Poles were expelled from the territory into the GG, more than 70,000 from Poznan alone. These actions were covered by the so-called ''Kleine Planung'' and as part of Generalplan Ost. ==Invasion== During the first week of the Polish September Campaign, there is little agreement as to the number and manner of minority Germans killed during Bromberg Bloody Sunday and in the days that followed throughout western Poland as the German Blitzkrieg swept through. Nazi propaganda later reported 60,000 people and used it as a pretext for repression against Poles (''see also'' Provocation in Gliwice). As German forces gained control, immediate executions killed over 3,000 Poles, many with unproven culpability, but this was just the beginning. Throughout the war, World War II atrocities in Poland on an unimaginable scale. On September 1, 1939, it had 390,000 Jews; most perished or suffered terrible abuse during the war. Two thousand members of the Polish intelligentsia were murdered, and another 10,000 as part of Action Tannenberg. Almost every village has a killing field or cemetery, quite often half a village was killed or sent away to work camps or concentration camps from which few returned. The Germans closed or destroyed universities, schools, museums, libraries, and scientific laboratories. They demolished hundreds of monuments to national heroes. ==Occupation== In the Wartheland, the Nazis' goal was complete "Germanization"; to assimilate the territory politically, culturally, socially, and economically into the German Reich. Germans closed elementary schools where Polish was the language of instruction. They renamed streets and cities - for example Lodz was renamed not to ''Lodsch'' (the name used for Lodz under Prussian rule), but to ''Litzmannstadt'', after General Litzmann, who had tried to capture the city during World War I. They also seized tens of thousands of Polish enterprises, from large industrial firms to small shops, without payment to the owners. Signs posted in public places warned: "Entrance is forbidden to Poles, Jews, and dogs." The Roman Catholic Church was suppressed in Wartheland more harshly than elsewhere, as they systematically closed churches, seminaries and convents; most priests were either killed (estimated 3,000 throughout Poland), imprisoned, or deported to the General Government. The Germanization of the annexed lands also included an ambitious program to resettle Germans from the Baltic and other regions on farms and other homes formerly occupied by Poles and Jews. This policy was pursued by the newly-appointed Gauleiter of the Warthegau, Artur Griser. By the end of 1940, the SS had expelled 325,000 Poles and Jews from the Wartheland and the Danzig corridor and transported them to the General Government, confiscating their belongings. Many elderly people and children died en route or in makeshift transit camps such as those in the towns of Potulice, Smukal, and Torun. In 1941, the Nazis expelled a further 45,000 people. At least 1.5 million Polish citizens (many were teenagers) were transported to the Reich for labor, most of them against their will. They were generally treated worse than other forced labor groups. ==End of war== At the beginning of 1945, Russian forces drove the retreating Germans through the Polish lands. Caught in severe winter temperatures, World War II evacuation and expulsion, many too late due to restrictions by their own government. An estimated 50,000 of the former German residents perished, some from flight conditions, some from the atrocities committed by conquering Soviet soldiers. Most captured German men were sent to Soviet camps in Kazakhstan. Of those German citizens who remained in their homes many were subsequently Persecutions of Nazi collaborators. Those who failed to pass reviews by the communists were expelled by the communist government, newly established in Poland by the Red Army. Private and public German property was confiscated and used to compensate Poles, who were forcibly relocated from southeastern Poland. == See also: == *Poland *Poznan (city) *History of Poznan (city) *World War II atrocities in Poland *History of Poland (1939-1945) *Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany Polish history Greater Poland History of Greater Poland
= add Prussia and GDuchy = I think this is a good edit, adds meaning User:Bwood 01:27, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Reichsgau Wartheland (diff; hist) . . Szopen (Talk) (i won't revert it, but add the "Prussia" to Germany, and Grand Duchy of Poznan.) = Clarify GG reference = In the intro paragraph, the meaning of this: "(as opposed to the General Government, GG)" isn't very clear. Someone should augment this. = Text moved to Talk from article = "From the earliest times, western Polish lands had some German residents, for centuries as invited guests. In the 1600s and 1700s, ethnic conflict emerged in the form of the Counter-Reformation. The freedom to worship that had been guaranteed the German settlers was removed, and most of their churches destroyed, stolen or forbidden use. Protestants were even required to support the Catholic church in some places. In time the bishops relaxed the oppression, but then the German settlers were attacked by roving bands of Polish militia unable to successfully liberate Congress Poland (see Bar Confederacy.) The tide turned in the late 1700s when the powerful neighbors carved Poland up in the three Partitions of Poland. Now the native Poles became the occupied, ruled by a foreign king and the minority Germans began to have the upper hand. Napoleon temporarily turned the tables for about eight years, then the situation reversed again. After another generation, the Prussian overlords became more and more oppressive, coming to a position that they would always own these lands and that the Polish peoples would have to be become Germanized. This naturally created a resistance, which sometimes erupted into unsuccessful uprisings. Measures become more and more severe, to where it became forbidden to use Polish in any public gathering, including school and church. The government fought a losing battle to replace Polish land ownership with German settlers, through the Settlement Commission. Then came World War I with the inevitable Fifth column subversions of the Poles, and the loss to Germany of most of its territory in this area. While retribution naturally followed, a relatively large amount of German settlers remained, deciding that it was better to keep their farms and businesses and become Polish citizens." This is good for the History of Polish-German relationships. ===================== I can see that this is going to be a difficult issue to preserve neutrality on. Let's start with the heading, and try to strike a balance on the rest. =Bwood ===================== Since this has turned into a lengthy diatribe of German atrocities, it really doesn't belong in this topic. The historical events should only be a portion of this, and the German atrocities were only a portion of the historical events. I am all in favor of documenting all the atrocities, but this is not the page. Perhaps it should be moved to all Germans were animals and all Poles were humane gentlemen? I wonder though, if this hasn't already been covered in the History of Poland articles, or in other topics, and if this isn't a case of highjacking. Cautious is obviously both more knowledgable on the subject and also "has an axe to grind". I will admit though, it has been valuable to see how native Poles (I assume) view these events. I hope someone with more neutrality and expertise comes along to keep this from being so one-sided. My time is better spent on earlier history and different areas of knowledge. User:Bwood 13:57, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC) :Don't be sarcastic. Of course not all Germans were animals and not all Poles were humbles. But it's hard to argue, that atrocities Nazis committed in Poland (by Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe etc) were in any way comparable to atrocities committed by Poles. Difference in scale. German Nazis were shooting prisoners, bombing undefended cities, mass executing people for siex LONG years. Which is sometimes suprising to nowadays Germans (who usually believe either that Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe ware chivalrious or that they started to behave less chivalrious after 1941...) User:Szopen WW2 was the war of evil Nazis against humanity. There is no way you can balance German-Polish relations in theese period. Certainly not more then you can balance German-Jewish. User:Cautious 14:08, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC) User:Cautious 14:08, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC) ===================== My concern here is unbalanced characterizations and a reluctance to allow the German peoples to be recognized as victims also. Example: "Nazi propaganda" edited to "Nazi hate propaganda", but when Poles commit atrocities, it is just the criminal ruffians. It is my contention that Poles and Germans are all just people, with good and evil and in the same circumstances, we would all be as guilty. Just because there were more victims of the winning side, doesn't mean we should not recognize the victims on the losing side as well. That said, I don't think any of us are really that far from agreement. Little things have such a largely different meaning for different people. I'm all for documenting *all* the evil, and for trying to show how ordinary people came to become such monsters to each other. (Therefore, the history of the back and forth conflict, showing the ongoing escalation, while not even, needs to preface a discussion of this sort.) I think it is safest to avoid characterisations that paint one side in a different light. For example, it would obviously not be neutral to brag about the patriotic uprisings and subversive activities, but to treat the atrocities as being totally without provocation. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view must kept, according to the rules. Further, if scale is so important, why so little mention of the Russian and Soviet atrocities? Is it because as one contributor has written, that "it's ok if it's between two Slavic people, that's how we keep ourselves fit" (paraphrase, taken from the History of Poland talk pages, I think). I'm absolutely not trolling (just looked up the definition), I very much want to come to agreement on wording. Let us focus on (all) the victims, and the facts and help each other to document in a way that all people would say is unbiased. I'm not the best qualified to represent the German side, what I've contributed is about all I have. I'll check in now and then to see how things are going, assist where I can. I'm still judging whether the Wiki model is going to be worth my time, as my main interest is online genealogy resources, and am trying to decide if this project is the best fit for our needs, or whether I need to fall back on other options. I hope that we can continue onwards, since I don't read Polish, most of my historical info comes from English and German sources and it is good to see how a Pole views the same material. As to specific responses: *It's not about a "difference is scale". (And please excuse me if I venture into sarcasm (again) here, it's not done in disrespect, but only for effectiveness.) If scale were the determinant, what is the formula? If A= German Atrocities and B= Polish atrocities and C= Russian atrocities and D= Jewish atrocities (There are arguments that Jews got their chance at revenge as well after the war, but don't know how valid that is), then is it material = max(A,B,D,E)(Whoever did the most gets the exposure.) Or is it: material = A-(B+D+E)? * "WW2 was "..not.." the war of evil Nazis against humanity" It was much more. It was blind obedience to a pyschopathic leadership that promised an escape from hardship, whispering lovingly in one ear while holding a gun to the other. It was about national securities of all nations involved and mistakes in diplomacy and power strategies. It was hundreds of things, but like all wars, it was mostly about how easily people can justify hurting each other. *It's not about balance, either. It's about neutrality of writing. You should know that as an American, I would be just as adament about documenting the atrocities that my nation has done. In all wars, especially the destuction of the native peoples. (As well as mentioning the atrocities that those people committed when they could.) Just as I'm outraged that our politicians characterize terrorists as "freedom haters" that want to "destroy all freedom-loving peoples". What a load of nonsense. Terrorists are people with less weapons and soldiers. I may not agree with what they *do* hate (or I may, doesn't matter). I may not feel that terrorism is acceptable, even if it is the only resort (or I may, doesn't matter). I know that if the Swiss discovered a powerful secret weapon, and decided they should be in charge of the world, including decided what I do with my life, I'd become a terrorist. As an afterthought, what about the ignored cases of humanity, when German and Polish neighbors risked their lives to hide, protect each other from their own countrymen who had become animals is the chaos of war. During the events of "Bromberg Bloody Sunday" many Germans were saved by Poles, and some Poles, Gypsies, Jews and others were saved by Germans. I propose that articles on atrocities include at least a footnote about that. Best wishes, User:Bwood 14:56, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) I give you one example. One of my ancestors family, have bought the farm in Pomerania from the German farmer that just wanted to return to homeland (1926). There were also other German family, and when Nazi came, the cows of my family were assigned to the German neighbours. When, the war was going to the end, the Germans aproached Poles and asked which cows they like. (Idylla?) But if the war lasted longer, all Poles, including my family, would have turned into the non-literacy subclass of agriculture workers. If you have 6 years break in your school education, just in primary school, this is something the affects your future a lot. On the other hand, my family were not asked, when our neighbours were expelled. This was done by some communist comittee, people that most Poles resented as a traitors. Another question is, if , providing that our German neighbours were expelled to West Germany, their future was much better, then if they remained as the second class citizens in Poland. User:Cautious 16:26, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) ==Probably not, and expulsion, plus the luck of a long (hopefully forever) break in the chain of conflict may have put the matter to rest once and for all. If the painful break had been made earlier, if the allies hadn't treated postwar Germany so harshly, if the world economy hadn't dived for so long in the 1930s.... I wonder what would have happened if part of western Poland had been retained by Germany and Poles in those areas exchanged with Germans in from the interior, creating all German and all Polish divisions? (Never could have happened of course). Or if all Germans had left after 1920...User:Bwood 17:07, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) It really happenned. Southern part of East Prussia, Posen-West Prussia province and German part of Upper Silesia had big Polish minorities. The main problem of the Polish-German relations was, that Poles, Germans and Jews were mixed to the level that there were no border line possible that would cut entirely Polish from entirely German areas. The same was true for Poles, Jews and Ukrainians in Galicia. Harshtreatment of Germany after WW1, are you joking?? Germans understans power, the treatment was not harsh enough, so they understood the weakness of enemy. this explains the rise of Nazis. User:Cautious 09:02, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC) Your family's story is quite interesting. I've heard so few personal accounts from Polish people. I'd like to hear more about what really happened from persons like yourself. Would you be willing to share more of this in private or in a different forum, like a mailing list or message board? Frankly, most American genealogists are so clueless, that they can't understand why their German ancestors came from Poland, and have no idea about life in Communist Poland or post-Communist Poland. User:Bwood 17:07, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) :OK Send me an email on olek_m@gazeta.pl. Don't expect too much from me, I had little touch with people that lived during WW2. User:Cautious 09:02, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC) =============================== At first it seems that what your assumptions are right. But, the problem is, that there are no facts at the table, the most of the article are interpretations. How you can discuss the opinion, that Poles committed attrocities on the German minority before 1939? Since there are no facts, the discussion is impossible. The second problem is, that Nazi propaganda needed those attrocities, therefore the picture was screwed by Nazis during the war, and never really corrected, since Poland and Germany belonged to different blocs. The third problem is remaining communist-Polish version, that is also the screwed picture. As far as I am concerned, it is necessary to mention, that Warthegau was an element of the famous Generalplan Ost, that included reconstruction of the Eastern Europe to form German colony. Status of Poles in comparison to status of Germans (the German minority became the citizens of the Reich). You should also mentioned, that some Poles were also smuggled into status of citizens of Germany. Education of Poles were forbidden. The next element, we should recount German crimes against Poles of the province. Every village has its own muss murder site. I lived in the village of 1000 inhabitants that belonged to West Prussia and the there were grave of 43 local leaders murdered. Germans also wiped out Polish clergy, mostly to concentration camps. Then we encounter the 1939 treatment of the minority. I think we can assume, that some members of the minority were also members of subversive organisations. On the otherhand, the fear and panic, that spread accross Poland even before the war was started, sometimes lead to spymania, that affected also innocent people. Some people, were deported from the border areas inside Poland How they were treated? We cannot say without verified source materials. In general, there were no intention of bloody persecutions, but some could have occured. Any case that occured, must have been welcomed by Nazis as the good excuse to punish as many Poles as possible. The next difficult problem is about the faith of Germans, when the Red Army came. There were for sure executions , rapes and robbery. Also commited on Poles. In general Polish society were quite well integrated, I mean had local leaders that were able to avoid the bloody revange. Those leaders were only partly recognized by Soviets. The rule in the countryside was in hands of "Milicja", the new formation found by communists out of villains and criminals. They commited sometimes crimes against those Germans. (to be continued)User:Cautious 15:37, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) ======================= ================ All very good points, most of which should be added to the material, I find it difficult to believe that Poles who had endured almost a century and a half of foreign oppression, attacks on their ethnic identity, fours years of occupation, living with the terror of surviving purges that removed half of their families, friends and neighbors, starvation, perhaps torture, and much, much else would not join the liberating army in an orgy of vengence. User:Bwood 16:47, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) : You should take into account the fact, that Poles are faithfull people. Unlike Germans, Polish moral standard are ankored in the authority of society and religious leaders, not state leaders. Therefore Poles tend to have better moral compass in times of chaos, but tend to obey the state institutions less in other times. This has of course advantages and disadvantages. Taking over German property during and after WW2 was not considered moraly bad, but rapes or murders were. Those who joined Soviets, were regarded with contempt. For example, in the village I lived, the pre-WW2 chicken thief became the communist leader. What you can expect from such a leaders? User:Cautious 09:02, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC) : I forgot to mention, that many people were killed by rowing bands, that were quite common in Poland after the war. There were different groups of people, politically moitivated, common bandits, soviet desertairs. Life was quite cheap and number of derailed people, very high. What I oppose, if somebody was killed by Poles. It should state by a bandit. User:Cautious 09:24, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC) I'm not interested in finger-pointing, but in documenting history. Out of curiosity, have you read the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view for Wikipedia? I hope so, we need to "be on the same page". As to facts, I can only go by what I've read, and try to judge the reliability of the sources, many of which come form those who were children during these times. Unfortunately, I am not a collector of these facts, but perhaps others who are, will weigh in. I do have an interest in providing an online resource that would collect documented atrocities and serve as a memorial to all victims. The least we can do for those who were slaughtered or tortured (perhaps your grand uncle or the cousin of the woman who married my uncle, or the grand-uncle of the Crow indian that I went to school with, or those related to the Jew whose restaurant I eat in, or the daughter of my neighbor who was kidnapped by white slavers on a family vacation in Mexico and hasn't been seen since, is to record their names and what happened to them as best as we can prove, so that long after you and I have faded from the memory of this world, their memory will remain. If I'm able to bring such a resource online, I hope you and others will add whatever you can to it. User:Bwood 16:47, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) ==================
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Words begining with Reichsgau_Wartheland:
Reichsgau_Wartheland
Reichsgau_Wartheland
Reichsgau Wartheland
Reichsgau Wartheland (initially Reichsgau Posen) was the name given by Nazis to the territory of Greater Poland which was occupied, annexed and directly incorporated into the German Third Reich after defeating the Polish army in 1939 (as opposed to the General Government, GG). The main parts of Reichsgau Wartheland had been part of Prussia (later Germany) for most of the period between 1793 and 1919 (refer to "Greater Poland through history" section below). Area: 43,905 km² Population: 4,693,700 (1941)
This territory was inhabited mostly by Poles, while having a significant German minority. During World War II, many Poles were expelled from the territory into the GG, more than 70,000 from Poznan alone. These actions were covered by the so-called ''Kleine Planung'' and as part of Generalplan Ost. ==Invasion== During the first week of the Polish September Campaign, there is little agreement as to the number and manner of minority Germans killed during Bromberg Bloody Sunday and in the days that followed throughout western Poland as the German Blitzkrieg swept through. Nazi propaganda later reported 60,000 people and used it as a pretext for repression against Poles (''see also'' Provocation in Gliwice). As German forces gained control, immediate executions killed over 3,000 Poles, many with unproven culpability, but this was just the beginning. Throughout the war, World War II atrocities in Poland on an unimaginable scale. On September 1, 1939, it had 390,000 Jews; most perished or suffered terrible abuse during the war. Two thousand members of the Polish intelligentsia were murdered, and another 10,000 as part of Action Tannenberg. Almost every village has a killing field or cemetery, quite often half a village was killed or sent away to work camps or concentration camps from which few returned. The Germans closed or destroyed universities, schools, museums, libraries, and scientific laboratories. They demolished hundreds of monuments to national heroes. ==Occupation== In the Wartheland, the Nazis' goal was complete "Germanization"; to assimilate the territory politically, culturally, socially, and economically into the German Reich. Germans closed elementary schools where Polish was the language of instruction. They renamed streets and cities - for example Lodz was renamed not to ''Lodsch'' (the name used for Lodz under Prussian rule), but to ''Litzmannstadt'', after General Litzmann, who had tried to capture the city during World War I. They also seized tens of thousands of Polish enterprises, from large industrial firms to small shops, without payment to the owners. Signs posted in public places warned: "Entrance is forbidden to Poles, Jews, and dogs." The Roman Catholic Church was suppressed in Wartheland more harshly than elsewhere, as they systematically closed churches, seminaries and convents; most priests were either killed (estimated 3,000 throughout Poland), imprisoned, or deported to the General Government. The Germanization of the annexed lands also included an ambitious program to resettle Germans from the Baltic and other regions on farms and other homes formerly occupied by Poles and Jews. This policy was pursued by the newly-appointed Gauleiter of the Warthegau, Artur Griser. By the end of 1940, the SS had expelled 325,000 Poles and Jews from the Wartheland and the Danzig corridor and transported them to the General Government, confiscating their belongings. Many elderly people and children died en route or in makeshift transit camps such as those in the towns of Potulice, Smukal, and Torun. In 1941, the Nazis expelled a further 45,000 people. At least 1.5 million Polish citizens (many were teenagers) were transported to the Reich for labor, most of them against their will. They were generally treated worse than other forced labor groups. ==End of war== At the beginning of 1945, Russian forces drove the retreating Germans through the Polish lands. Caught in severe winter temperatures, World War II evacuation and expulsion, many too late due to restrictions by their own government. An estimated 50,000 of the former German residents perished, some from flight conditions, some from the atrocities committed by conquering Soviet soldiers. Most captured German men were sent to Soviet camps in Kazakhstan. Of those German citizens who remained in their homes many were subsequently Persecutions of Nazi collaborators. Those who failed to pass reviews by the communists were expelled by the communist government, newly established in Poland by the Red Army. Private and public German property was confiscated and used to compensate Poles, who were forcibly relocated from southeastern Poland. == See also: == *Poland *Poznan (city) *History of Poznan (city) *World War II atrocities in Poland *History of Poland (1939-1945) *Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany Polish history Greater Poland History of Greater Poland
Reichsgau Wartheland
= add Prussia and GDuchy = I think this is a good edit, adds meaning User:Bwood 01:27, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Reichsgau Wartheland (diff; hist) . . Szopen (Talk) (i won't revert it, but add the "Prussia" to Germany, and Grand Duchy of Poznan.) = Clarify GG reference = In the intro paragraph, the meaning of this: "(as opposed to the General Government, GG)" isn't very clear. Someone should augment this. = Text moved to Talk from article = "From the earliest times, western Polish lands had some German residents, for centuries as invited guests. In the 1600s and 1700s, ethnic conflict emerged in the form of the Counter-Reformation. The freedom to worship that had been guaranteed the German settlers was removed, and most of their churches destroyed, stolen or forbidden use. Protestants were even required to support the Catholic church in some places. In time the bishops relaxed the oppression, but then the German settlers were attacked by roving bands of Polish militia unable to successfully liberate Congress Poland (see Bar Confederacy.) The tide turned in the late 1700s when the powerful neighbors carved Poland up in the three Partitions of Poland. Now the native Poles became the occupied, ruled by a foreign king and the minority Germans began to have the upper hand. Napoleon temporarily turned the tables for about eight years, then the situation reversed again. After another generation, the Prussian overlords became more and more oppressive, coming to a position that they would always own these lands and that the Polish peoples would have to be become Germanized. This naturally created a resistance, which sometimes erupted into unsuccessful uprisings. Measures become more and more severe, to where it became forbidden to use Polish in any public gathering, including school and church. The government fought a losing battle to replace Polish land ownership with German settlers, through the Settlement Commission. Then came World War I with the inevitable Fifth column subversions of the Poles, and the loss to Germany of most of its territory in this area. While retribution naturally followed, a relatively large amount of German settlers remained, deciding that it was better to keep their farms and businesses and become Polish citizens." This is good for the History of Polish-German relationships. ===================== I can see that this is going to be a difficult issue to preserve neutrality on. Let's start with the heading, and try to strike a balance on the rest. =Bwood ===================== Since this has turned into a lengthy diatribe of German atrocities, it really doesn't belong in this topic. The historical events should only be a portion of this, and the German atrocities were only a portion of the historical events. I am all in favor of documenting all the atrocities, but this is not the page. Perhaps it should be moved to all Germans were animals and all Poles were humane gentlemen? I wonder though, if this hasn't already been covered in the History of Poland articles, or in other topics, and if this isn't a case of highjacking. Cautious is obviously both more knowledgable on the subject and also "has an axe to grind". I will admit though, it has been valuable to see how native Poles (I assume) view these events. I hope someone with more neutrality and expertise comes along to keep this from being so one-sided. My time is better spent on earlier history and different areas of knowledge. User:Bwood 13:57, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC) :Don't be sarcastic. Of course not all Germans were animals and not all Poles were humbles. But it's hard to argue, that atrocities Nazis committed in Poland (by Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe etc) were in any way comparable to atrocities committed by Poles. Difference in scale. German Nazis were shooting prisoners, bombing undefended cities, mass executing people for siex LONG years. Which is sometimes suprising to nowadays Germans (who usually believe either that Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe ware chivalrious or that they started to behave less chivalrious after 1941...) User:Szopen WW2 was the war of evil Nazis against humanity. There is no way you can balance German-Polish relations in theese period. Certainly not more then you can balance German-Jewish. User:Cautious 14:08, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC) User:Cautious 14:08, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC) ===================== My concern here is unbalanced characterizations and a reluctance to allow the German peoples to be recognized as victims also. Example: "Nazi propaganda" edited to "Nazi hate propaganda", but when Poles commit atrocities, it is just the criminal ruffians. It is my contention that Poles and Germans are all just people, with good and evil and in the same circumstances, we would all be as guilty. Just because there were more victims of the winning side, doesn't mean we should not recognize the victims on the losing side as well. That said, I don't think any of us are really that far from agreement. Little things have such a largely different meaning for different people. I'm all for documenting *all* the evil, and for trying to show how ordinary people came to become such monsters to each other. (Therefore, the history of the back and forth conflict, showing the ongoing escalation, while not even, needs to preface a discussion of this sort.) I think it is safest to avoid characterisations that paint one side in a different light. For example, it would obviously not be neutral to brag about the patriotic uprisings and subversive activities, but to treat the atrocities as being totally without provocation. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view must kept, according to the rules. Further, if scale is so important, why so little mention of the Russian and Soviet atrocities? Is it because as one contributor has written, that "it's ok if it's between two Slavic people, that's how we keep ourselves fit" (paraphrase, taken from the History of Poland talk pages, I think). I'm absolutely not trolling (just looked up the definition), I very much want to come to agreement on wording. Let us focus on (all) the victims, and the facts and help each other to document in a way that all people would say is unbiased. I'm not the best qualified to represent the German side, what I've contributed is about all I have. I'll check in now and then to see how things are going, assist where I can. I'm still judging whether the Wiki model is going to be worth my time, as my main interest is online genealogy resources, and am trying to decide if this project is the best fit for our needs, or whether I need to fall back on other options. I hope that we can continue onwards, since I don't read Polish, most of my historical info comes from English and German sources and it is good to see how a Pole views the same material. As to specific responses: *It's not about a "difference is scale". (And please excuse me if I venture into sarcasm (again) here, it's not done in disrespect, but only for effectiveness.) If scale were the determinant, what is the formula? If A= German Atrocities and B= Polish atrocities and C= Russian atrocities and D= Jewish atrocities (There are arguments that Jews got their chance at revenge as well after the war, but don't know how valid that is), then is it material = max(A,B,D,E)(Whoever did the most gets the exposure.) Or is it: material = A-(B+D+E)? * "WW2 was "..not.." the war of evil Nazis against humanity" It was much more. It was blind obedience to a pyschopathic leadership that promised an escape from hardship, whispering lovingly in one ear while holding a gun to the other. It was about national securities of all nations involved and mistakes in diplomacy and power strategies. It was hundreds of things, but like all wars, it was mostly about how easily people can justify hurting each other. *It's not about balance, either. It's about neutrality of writing. You should know that as an American, I would be just as adament about documenting the atrocities that my nation has done. In all wars, especially the destuction of the native peoples. (As well as mentioning the atrocities that those people committed when they could.) Just as I'm outraged that our politicians characterize terrorists as "freedom haters" that want to "destroy all freedom-loving peoples". What a load of nonsense. Terrorists are people with less weapons and soldiers. I may not agree with what they *do* hate (or I may, doesn't matter). I may not feel that terrorism is acceptable, even if it is the only resort (or I may, doesn't matter). I know that if the Swiss discovered a powerful secret weapon, and decided they should be in charge of the world, including decided what I do with my life, I'd become a terrorist. As an afterthought, what about the ignored cases of humanity, when German and Polish neighbors risked their lives to hide, protect each other from their own countrymen who had become animals is the chaos of war. During the events of "Bromberg Bloody Sunday" many Germans were saved by Poles, and some Poles, Gypsies, Jews and others were saved by Germans. I propose that articles on atrocities include at least a footnote about that. Best wishes, User:Bwood 14:56, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) I give you one example. One of my ancestors family, have bought the farm in Pomerania from the German farmer that just wanted to return to homeland (1926). There were also other German family, and when Nazi came, the cows of my family were assigned to the German neighbours. When, the war was going to the end, the Germans aproached Poles and asked which cows they like. (Idylla?) But if the war lasted longer, all Poles, including my family, would have turned into the non-literacy subclass of agriculture workers. If you have 6 years break in your school education, just in primary school, this is something the affects your future a lot. On the other hand, my family were not asked, when our neighbours were expelled. This was done by some communist comittee, people that most Poles resented as a traitors. Another question is, if , providing that our German neighbours were expelled to West Germany, their future was much better, then if they remained as the second class citizens in Poland. User:Cautious 16:26, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) ==Probably not, and expulsion, plus the luck of a long (hopefully forever) break in the chain of conflict may have put the matter to rest once and for all. If the painful break had been made earlier, if the allies hadn't treated postwar Germany so harshly, if the world economy hadn't dived for so long in the 1930s.... I wonder what would have happened if part of western Poland had been retained by Germany and Poles in those areas exchanged with Germans in from the interior, creating all German and all Polish divisions? (Never could have happened of course). Or if all Germans had left after 1920...User:Bwood 17:07, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) It really happenned. Southern part of East Prussia, Posen-West Prussia province and German part of Upper Silesia had big Polish minorities. The main problem of the Polish-German relations was, that Poles, Germans and Jews were mixed to the level that there were no border line possible that would cut entirely Polish from entirely German areas. The same was true for Poles, Jews and Ukrainians in Galicia. Harshtreatment of Germany after WW1, are you joking?? Germans understans power, the treatment was not harsh enough, so they understood the weakness of enemy. this explains the rise of Nazis. User:Cautious 09:02, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC) Your family's story is quite interesting. I've heard so few personal accounts from Polish people. I'd like to hear more about what really happened from persons like yourself. Would you be willing to share more of this in private or in a different forum, like a mailing list or message board? Frankly, most American genealogists are so clueless, that they can't understand why their German ancestors came from Poland, and have no idea about life in Communist Poland or post-Communist Poland. User:Bwood 17:07, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) :OK Send me an email on olek_m@gazeta.pl. Don't expect too much from me, I had little touch with people that lived during WW2. User:Cautious 09:02, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC) =============================== At first it seems that what your assumptions are right. But, the problem is, that there are no facts at the table, the most of the article are interpretations. How you can discuss the opinion, that Poles committed attrocities on the German minority before 1939? Since there are no facts, the discussion is impossible. The second problem is, that Nazi propaganda needed those attrocities, therefore the picture was screwed by Nazis during the war, and never really corrected, since Poland and Germany belonged to different blocs. The third problem is remaining communist-Polish version, that is also the screwed picture. As far as I am concerned, it is necessary to mention, that Warthegau was an element of the famous Generalplan Ost, that included reconstruction of the Eastern Europe to form German colony. Status of Poles in comparison to status of Germans (the German minority became the citizens of the Reich). You should also mentioned, that some Poles were also smuggled into status of citizens of Germany. Education of Poles were forbidden. The next element, we should recount German crimes against Poles of the province. Every village has its own muss murder site. I lived in the village of 1000 inhabitants that belonged to West Prussia and the there were grave of 43 local leaders murdered. Germans also wiped out Polish clergy, mostly to concentration camps. Then we encounter the 1939 treatment of the minority. I think we can assume, that some members of the minority were also members of subversive organisations. On the otherhand, the fear and panic, that spread accross Poland even before the war was started, sometimes lead to spymania, that affected also innocent people. Some people, were deported from the border areas inside Poland How they were treated? We cannot say without verified source materials. In general, there were no intention of bloody persecutions, but some could have occured. Any case that occured, must have been welcomed by Nazis as the good excuse to punish as many Poles as possible. The next difficult problem is about the faith of Germans, when the Red Army came. There were for sure executions , rapes and robbery. Also commited on Poles. In general Polish society were quite well integrated, I mean had local leaders that were able to avoid the bloody revange. Those leaders were only partly recognized by Soviets. The rule in the countryside was in hands of "Milicja", the new formation found by communists out of villains and criminals. They commited sometimes crimes against those Germans. (to be continued)User:Cautious 15:37, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) ======================= ================ All very good points, most of which should be added to the material, I find it difficult to believe that Poles who had endured almost a century and a half of foreign oppression, attacks on their ethnic identity, fours years of occupation, living with the terror of surviving purges that removed half of their families, friends and neighbors, starvation, perhaps torture, and much, much else would not join the liberating army in an orgy of vengence. User:Bwood 16:47, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) : You should take into account the fact, that Poles are faithfull people. Unlike Germans, Polish moral standard are ankored in the authority of society and religious leaders, not state leaders. Therefore Poles tend to have better moral compass in times of chaos, but tend to obey the state institutions less in other times. This has of course advantages and disadvantages. Taking over German property during and after WW2 was not considered moraly bad, but rapes or murders were. Those who joined Soviets, were regarded with contempt. For example, in the village I lived, the pre-WW2 chicken thief became the communist leader. What you can expect from such a leaders? User:Cautious 09:02, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC) : I forgot to mention, that many people were killed by rowing bands, that were quite common in Poland after the war. There were different groups of people, politically moitivated, common bandits, soviet desertairs. Life was quite cheap and number of derailed people, very high. What I oppose, if somebody was killed by Poles. It should state by a bandit. User:Cautious 09:24, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC) I'm not interested in finger-pointing, but in documenting history. Out of curiosity, have you read the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view for Wikipedia? I hope so, we need to "be on the same page". As to facts, I can only go by what I've read, and try to judge the reliability of the sources, many of which come form those who were children during these times. Unfortunately, I am not a collector of these facts, but perhaps others who are, will weigh in. I do have an interest in providing an online resource that would collect documented atrocities and serve as a memorial to all victims. The least we can do for those who were slaughtered or tortured (perhaps your grand uncle or the cousin of the woman who married my uncle, or the grand-uncle of the Crow indian that I went to school with, or those related to the Jew whose restaurant I eat in, or the daughter of my neighbor who was kidnapped by white slavers on a family vacation in Mexico and hasn't been seen since, is to record their names and what happened to them as best as we can prove, so that long after you and I have faded from the memory of this world, their memory will remain. If I'm able to bring such a resource online, I hope you and others will add whatever you can to it. User:Bwood 16:47, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) ==================
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R
RA | RB | RC | RD | RE | RF | RG | RH | RI | RJ | RK | RL | RM | RN | RO | RP | RS | RT | RU | RW | RX | RY | RZ |Words begining with Reichsgau_Wartheland:
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