
#REDIRECT Punk rock
Punk Rock is an anti-establishment music movement that began about 1976 (although precursors can be found several years earlier), exemplified by The Ramones, the Sex Pistols, The Clash and The Damned. The term is also used to describe subsequent music scenes that share key characteristics with those first-generation "punks". The term is sometimes also applied to the fashions or the irreverent "DIY punk ethic" ("do it yourself") attitude associated with this musical movement. ==Origins== The phrase "punk rock" (from "Wiktionary:Punk", meaning rotten, worthless, or snotty, often applied to a street hustler or juvenile delinquent; also meaning a beginner or novice [http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=punk&x=0&y=0]) was originally applied to the untutored guitar-and-vocals-based rock and roll of United States bands of the mid-1960s such as The Standells, The Sonics, and The Seeds (band), who now are more often categorized as "garage rock". An even clearer definition of the term "punk" comes from its actual common use. In the 1950's it was typical for American youth from street or biker gangs (or just any type of delinquint) to be called "punks" by police, school staff, or parents. The term was universally applied to young people who did not respect authority or property. Even today, the term is still used quite commonly in this way. The term was coined by rock critic Dave Marsh, who used it to describe the music of Question Mark and the Mysterians in the May 1971 issue of ''Creem'' magazine. The term was adopted by many rock music journalists in the early 1970s. For example, in the liner notes of the 1972 anthology album ''Nuggets'', critic and guitarist Lenny Kaye uses the term "punk-rock" to refer to the Sixties "garage rock" groups, as well as some of the darker and more primitive practitioners of 1960s psychedelic rock. Shortly after the time of those notes, Lenny Kaye formed a band with ''avant-garde'' poet Patti Smith. Smith's group, and her first album, ''Horses (album)'', released in 1975, directly inspired many of the mid-1970s punk rockers, so this suggests a path by which the term migrated to the music we now know as punk. the game show host "project telomere" was also integral in this design. In addition to the inspiration of those "garage bands" of the 1960s, the roots of punk rock also draw on the abrasive, dissonant style of The Velvet Underground; the sexually and politically confrontational Detroit bands The Stooges and MC5; the United Kingdom Pub rock (UK) scene and political UK Underground bands such as Mick Farren and the The Deviants (band); the New York Dolls, and some British "glam rock" or "art rock" acts of the early 1970s, including Gary Glitter and Roxy Music. The British punk movement also found a precedent in the "do-it-yourself" attitude of the Skiffle music craze that emerged amid the post-World War II austerity of 1950s Britain. Skiffle music led directly to the tremendous worldwide success of The Beatles (who began as a Skiffle group) and the subsequent British Invasion of the U.S. record charts. Punk rock in Britain coincided with the rise of Margaret Thatcher, and nearly all British punk bands expressed an attitude of angry social alienation. Punk rock was also a reaction against certain tendencies that had overtaken popular music in the 1970s, including what the punks saw as superficial "disco" music and grandiose forms of heavy metal music, progressive rock and "arena rock." Punk also rejected the remnants of the hippie counterculture of the 1960s. Bands such as Jefferson Airplane, which had survived the 1960s, were regarded by most punks as having become fatuous and an embarrassment to their former claims of radicality. Eric Clapton's appearance in television beer advertisement in the mid-1970s was often cited as an example of how the icons of 1960s rock had literally sold themselves to the system they once opposed. The influence of the cultural critique and the strategies for revolutionary action offered by the European situationist movement of the 1950s and 1960s is apparent in the vanguard of the British punk movement, particularly the Sex Pistols. This was a conscious direction taken by Pistols manager Malcolm McLaren, and is apparent in the clothing designed for the band by Vivienne Westwood, and the visual artwork of the Situationist-affiliated Jamie Reid, who designed many of the band's graphics. ==The Emergence of Punk Rock== Punk rock originated in New York in 1975-1976 with a handful of bands including Richard Hell and the Voidoids, The Ramones, Television, Blondie, Patti Smith, The Dead Boys, Jayne County, Cherry Vanilla, and Talking Heads. A 1975 tour of the U.K. by the Ramones influenced emerging punk rock bands in England and the U.K.: The Saints in Brisbane, Australia, and the Sex Pistols, The Damned (the first band to market an album as "punk"), The Clash, Buzzcocks and The Slits in London. Early punk bands were operating within small "scenes" that included other bands and solo performers as well as enthusiastic impresarios who operated small nightclubs that provided a showcase and meeting place for the emerging musicians (the 100 Club in London, CBGB's in New York, the Rat, the Paradise and The Club in Boston, and The Masque in Hollywood are among the best known early punk clubs). An important feature of punk rock was an evident desire to return to the concise approach of early rock and roll. Punk rock emphasised simple musical structure and short songs, extolling a DIY ethic that insisted anyone could form a punk rock band (the early UK punk fanzine ''Sniffin' Glue'' once famously included drawings of three chord shapes, captioned, "this is a chord, this is another, this is a third. Now form a band"). Punk lyrics introduced a confrontational frankness of expression in matters both political and sexual, dealing with urban boredom and rising unemployment in the UK — for example, the Sex Pistols' "God Save the Queen (Sex Pistols song)" and "Pretty Vacant" — or decidedly anti-romantic depictions of sex and love, such as the Dead Kennedys' "Too Drunk to Fuck." One of the first books about punk rock — ''The Boy Looked at Johnny'' by Julie Burchill and Tony Parsons (December 1977) — declared the punk moment to be already over: the subtitle was ''The Obituary of Rock and Roll''. The title echoed a lyric from the title track of Patti Smith's 1975 album ''Horses''; this "obituary" for punk came when the Clash had only one album out and the Dead Kennedys had not yet formed. In the UK, punk interacted with the Jamaican reggae and ska subcultures. The reggae influence is evident in the first releases by The Clash, for example. By the end of the 1970s punk had spawned the 2 Tone ska revival movement, including bands such as The Specials, Madness (band) and The Selecter. ==Punk attitudes and fashion==
The punk phenomenon expressed a rejection of prevailing values in ways that extended beyond the music. British punk fashion deliberately outraged propriety with the highly theatrical use of cosmetics and hairstyles: eye makeup might cover half the face, hair might stand in spikes or be cut into a "Mohawk hairstyle" or other radical shapes, and might also be drastically colored. The clothing typically adapted or mutilated existing objects for artistic effect: pants and shirts were cut, torn, or wrapped with tape, and written on with marker or defaced with paint; safety pins and razor blades were used as jewelry (including using safety pins for piercings); a black bin liner bag (garbage bag) might become a dress, shirt or skirt. Leather, rubber and Polyvinyl_chloride clothing was also common, possibly due to its implied connection with transgressive sexual practices, such as Bondage (sexual) and Sadism and masochism. A few musicians and fans also included Nazi -connected elements in their outfits, primarily the swastika, the Iron Cross and German Army helmets, but many of them claimed (somewhat disingenuously) not to understand the connection nor why people were so upset.
Punk bands and fans were often accused of nihilism, reflexive anarchism, willful stupidity, hooliganism, and of behavior and dress that existed merely for shock value. This may have been true for some bands and fans, but for many the music, dress and lifestyle also (or primarily) included elements of irony, absurdist humor and genuine suspicion of mainstream culture and values. Furthermore, many bands (The Clash being a prime example) openly espoused a liberal or progressive social and political philosophy. Others went farther; bands such as Crass (an anarchist/pacifist group) actively participated in political protests and projects to alter its local or national communities.
Some of the furor over punk was caused by the behavior of the fans at shows, which often appeared to the uninitiated to be more of a small-scale riot than a music concert. This behavior included spitting on the band, throwing beer bottles at the band and each other, stage diving, pogoing and slam dancing (which eventually led to the mosh pit), the destruction of music and sound equipment and destroying or defacing the venue itself. Fights both in and outside the venue were not uncommon. Again, while for some bands and fans this violent and destructive behavior may have been an end in itself, for others it was a physical expression of frustration with both their personal lives and with the perceived shortcomings of society in general.
The DIY aesthetic of punk created a thriving underground press; you could not only start a band, you could also be a music journalist and critic. Initially, such amateur magazines took inspiration from the pre-existing fanzines in the science fiction fan community; probably the most influential of the fanzines to cross over from SF fandom to the punk fanzine tradition was Greg Shaw's ''Who Put the Bomp?''. Later, in the UK Mark Perry produced ''Sniffin' Glue''. In the United States, magazines such as ''Punk'', ''Search & Destroy'' (later REsearch), the politically-charged ''Maximum RocknRoll'', the anarchist ''Profane Existence'', and ''Flipside'' were among the most important fanzines in the 1980s and onward. Every local "scene" had at least one, often primitively- or casually-published magazine with news, gossip, and interviews with local or touring bands. The magazine ''Factsheet Five'' chronicled some of thousands of underground publications and "zines" in the 1980s and 1990s.
==Post-1970s punk==
In the 1980s a second wave of anti-establishment and "DIY" bands came into their own in the UK and the United States, a genre known as Hardcore punk. The period from approximately 1980 to 1986 is considered the peak of hardcore punk. Early hardcore bands include Black Flag, Bad Brains and The Germs and the movement developed via Minor Threat, The Dicks, The Minutemen (band) and Hüsker Dü, among others. In New York, there was a large hardcore punk movement led by bands such as Agnostic Front, The Cro-Mags, Murphy's Law, Sick of it All, and Gorilla Biscuits.
In the UK, meanwhile, post-punk bands as diverse as Joy Division (band), The Fall, This Heat, Public Image Ltd, Scritti Politti and Gang of Four (band), each with their own distinctive sound, contributed to a musically adventurous era, although their influence on later 'punk rock' is debatable.
A thriving punk rock subculture can still be found in many cities.
The punk rock of the early and mid-1990s was characterized by the scene at 924 Gilman Street, a venue in Berkeley, California, which featured bands such as Operation Ivy (band), and Rancid, who would later go on to be well-known among the punk scene. Epitaph Records, an independent record label started by Brett Gurewitz of Bad Religion, would become the home of the "skate punk" sound, characterized by bands like Pennywise, NOFX, and The Offspring. Around 1994, these bands achieved a commercial success, followed by a short-lived ska punk revival around 1997. Green Day achieved huge commercial success with their 1994 album, "Dookie".
Punk quickly became a label to sell comercial bands as "rebels", amid complaints from underground punk fans that, by being signed to major labels and appearing on MTV, these bands were buying into the system that punk was created to rebel against, and as a result, could not be considered true punk. This debate continues with the popularity of "pop-punk" in the early 2000s, and the emo trend of recent times.
Regardless, there is still a thriving underground punk scene in both North America and Europe. The widespread availability of the Internet and file sharing programs enables bands who would otherwise not be heard outside of their local scene to garner larger followings, and emphasizes the DIY ethic started by the original punk bands. Many punk bands still retain the political streak of their forefathers. The political success of George W. Bush and Tony Blair have inspired both songs and political action, such as the Rock Against Bush movement, that can be compared to the original rage at Reagan and Thatcher.
In punk's original heydey, punks faced harrassment and even violence from others, such as in Britain, where punks were infamously involved in brawls with teds, or fans of rockabilly. Nowadays, it is relatively socially acceptable to be punk and play punk rock music, and it is often merely a fashion statement for youth. Thus, some maintain that the punk scene has lost the very heart of its former nature as one of explosive creativity, rebellion, anger, hate, and individualism, and that it has become a mere caricature of what once was.
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==Sound samples==
*Media:IWanttoBeSedated.ogg by The Ramones, from ''Road to Ruin'', 1978. 28 seconds, 540 KB.
*Media:WireDotDash1978.ogg by Wire (band), a single from 1978. 30 seconds, 519 KB.
*Media:LondonCalling.ogg by The Clash, from ''London Calling'', 1979. 30 seconds, 616 KB.
==See also==
Extensive lists of relevant bands and so on can be found at the following sub-pages:
*List of forerunners of punk music (ca. 1968-1976)
*List of musicians in the first wave of punk music (ca. 1976-1985)
*List of musicians in the second wave of punk music (ca. 1985-present)
*List of punk movies
*List of punk cities
*Timeline of punk rock
*Punk ideology
*ABC No Rio A DIY punk venue/squat
*List of rock genres
===Related genres===
*Anarcho-punk
*Red and Anarchist Skinheads
*Anti-folk
*Cassette culture
*Christian punk
*Death punk
*Garage punk
*Gothic rock
*Gothic punk
*Grunge
*Hardcore punk
*Horror punk
*New Wave Music
*Oi!
*Pop punk
*Post punk
*Proto punk
*Psychobilly
*Pub rock (UK)
*Punk pop
*Queercore
*Rapcore
*Ska punk
*Skate punk
*Skinhead
*Straight edge
*Street punk
*Thrash
==References==
* ''Psychotic Reactions and Carburetor Dung'' by Lester Bangs, ISBN 0679720456
* ''The Boy Looked At Johnny: The Obituary of Rock and Roll'' by Julie Burchill & Tony Parsons, 1978, Pluto Press, UK, ISBN 0861040309X
* ''Please Kill Me: The Uncensored Oral History of Punk'' by Legs McNeil & Gillian McCain, 1997, Penguin Books, ISBN 0140266909
==External links==
*[http://www.unitedpunk.com United Punk Resource Directory]
*[http://www.bandnews.org/Punk/ Genre: Punk at Bandnews.org]
*[http://www.wsc.mass.edu/mfilas/research/punk.html Punk Inquiry and Study Site (PISS)]
*[http://www.punk77.co.uk/ Punk '77! Punk Rock In The UK 1976–1979]
*[http://www.punkrock.org/ punkrock.org]
*[http://www.maximumrocknroll.com/ maximumrocknroll.com]
*[http://www.truepunk.com/ Truepunk Dot Com – Popular Punk Resource]
*[http://www.punknews.org/ Punknews.org – Daily Punk News Source]
*[http://www.punkinderry.bravepages.com/ History of punk in Derry, Northern Ireland]
*[http://www.bestiff.co.uk/ Stiff Records]
*[http://www.punkrockvids.com/ Punkrockvids.com – Punk Rock Videos]
*[http://www.fastnbulbous.com/punk.htm ''Fast'n'Bulbous'' - History of Punk]
*[http://www.live365.com/stations/wannabepunk2 Ska, Punk & Other Junk – Online Punk Radio Station that features Punk and Punk-influenced styles]
*[http://www.freewebs.com/jumbosox/ Jumbosox - Punk rock videos and much more]
*[http://www.dau.mil/pubs/dam/07_08_2005/qua_ja05.pdf Article in US Department Of Defense program management journal titled ''Everything We Need To Know About Program Management We Learned From Punk Rock'']
Musical movements
Punk
Musical genres
---- /Archive1 - May-November 2004 == More dubious additions == Because knowledge on this topic is so diffuse, I continue to hesitate to delete without discussion, but here are two more recent additions that I think are probably wrong: 1) In the list of U.S. punk magazines "Search and Destroy" (no link, I've never heard of it, I can't say it ''doesn't'' exist). Can someone weigh in and give us a clue on where it is/was from, whether it was actually significant, etc. In any case, I'd be really surprised if it merits listing ''before'' ''Maximum RocknRoll'', ''Profane Existence'' and ''Flipside''. 2) Post-1970s punk: someone added "Ism" to the list. The link is irrelevant and just goes to our article ''-ism''. I've never heard of them. Can someone vouch for them belonging here? If no one makes a case for these, I will delete. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 20:28, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC) "Search and Destroy" is legit. It was the predecessor of the REsearch publications out of San Francisco, and has been reprinted as a prime punk document (you can probably find details about the reprint at online booksellers). Unlike some of the other titles mentioned, it was actually active during the late 70s. Other zine titles that might be worth adding are the LA-based "Slash" and "NO". "Ism" makes no sense to me. --User:BTfromLA 20:59, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) :I think the title should read "Search & Destroy," with an ampersand. --User:BTfromLA 21:02, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) :: Oh, yeah, I know ''REsearch'', just didn't know their earlier incarnation. Let's link it to the better-known still-existing publication and make sure the article on that mentions the earlier one. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 23:41, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC) == Too drunk... == A recent anon edit turned 'the Dead Kennedys' "Too Drunk to Fuck"' into 'the Dead Kennedys' "Too Drunk to F**k"'. Is there any basis for this being the official title or was this just censorship of Wikipedia? -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 02:52, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC) :Um, not that I learned this on the way to my music Ph.D., but I'm pretty sure the official title is "Too Drunk to Fuck." LOL. User:Antandrus 02:55, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::I think this has happened before, as I'm pretty sure I've reverted it previously. In any case, I've reverted it now. We should use the correct title in all cases. User:TUF-KAT 05:33, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC) == 1976-1980 == Although the 1976 date is important, the 1980 one is completely arbitrary - we might want to say punk began in 1976 (though I think even that is probably papering over the ambiguity), but to say it, or even the 'first wave' ended in 1980 is really not NPOV--User:Mgekelly 06:39, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC) : Concur. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 07:21, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC) ::I agree that the dates are a bit arbitrary, as is almost universally the case when describing an artistic movement, but I think "beginning around 1976" is an invitation for endless additions and a generally less useful article. Unless you are arguing that the historical claim for this movement that the article is staking out is incorrect, I vote for specifying dates;75 or 76-80 seems right. If we want to qualify it with an "approximately," that's fine with me. --User:BTfromLA 07:58, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC) :::OK, I'll just put my cards on the table and say that I don't think we can say that punk has had an end point. No-one specifies an end-point for musical movements like jazz or blues, so why punk? Punk has been around continuously at least since 1976, and not just in small enclaves - there have been massive punk scenes going on continuously, involving millions of people around the world. My problem with this article is that it considers the phrase 'punk-rock' to cover a four-year period. I don't doubt that people do think this, but it is not the only view about punk, so not NPOV. An article about punk-rock ought to trace out its entire history, indicate the existence of off-shoots like New Wave, Grunge, Crossover up to the present day, when punk is still huge. The major inaccuracy in this article is an inaccuracy by omission.--User:Mgekelly 01:37, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::::Thanks for exposing your hand. So is "Punk Rock" an influential episode in the history of "Rock" (or even "Pop") music, as "Bebop" is to "Jazz," or is it a distinct category of music, like "Jazz" itself? Certainly there is a case to be made that, as you say, "punk is still huge." I come down on the side of preserving the article's focus on the original punk scene, with brief descriptions of ongoing manifestations of punk and the many punk-influenced movements, including links to more extensive articles on those. I think a narrower focus makes for a clearer article and better history. Declaring punk to have defined itself in that late-70s period does not invalidate the subsequent "punks" at all (nor does it imply that the Ramones weren't playing Punk Rock in the 90s), it just helps to place them historically. There are still Rockabilly bands, and good ones. But there was a time at which rockabilly defined itself, emerged as a force, then began to become absorbed into a variety of musical forms. Just as I think that period in the 50s should be the focus of the entry on Rockabilly, so I agree with focusing on the late seventies as the primary "Punk Rock" period. --User:BTfromLA 02:40, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC) :::::Yeah, but if that's your crierion, it still doesn't work: what punk is today is still pretty dynamic and in flux. It is not true that what punk rock is was defined by 1980 - what punk rock is today is not what it is then. Although there are bands who are influenced by the Ramones, there are also plenty of punk bands who are uninfluenced by early punk, except insofar as it has influenced bands, who have influenced bands, who have influenced them.--User:Mgekelly 04:34, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC) I'm willing to allow that my claim may be the result of a generational bias, and I won't put up much of a fight if there's a consensus to welcome an open-ended definition of Punk Rock. But please take a look at such entries as Hardcore punk, Grunge, the punk timeline, and some of the other linked articles, and ask yourself whether the encyclopedia will really be improved by the change. --User:BTfromLA 05:09, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC) :What need to be done in the article is describe the various opinions on this issue (per: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), many of which are expressed above. Howevever, the best way to describe this is through citations (Wikipedia:Cite sources). :Once this is done it should be much easier to determine which dates are appropriate for related articles such as Timeline of punk rock (which, by the way, indicates the punk did not end in 1980). User:Hyacinth 18:22, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) == Newschool/Oldschool == Firstly how can you have a punk rcok article without mentioning NOFX? The most influential and successfull of the "new school" punk rock bands. Also there should be greater detail on the new punk rock of the 90's. (anon, unsigned, 30 Jan 2005) * Well add it then!!!!! User:Quercusrobur 18:11, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) == Dancepunk addition == Hi, just a passerby and I'm not familiar with the layout of this whole topic. But I saw "dancepunk" as a dead link in the article for the band "!!!". I Googled a little and it seems to be a real subgenre, and I found a description or two and some representative bands, but as a beginner I'm not up to the task of categorizing this properly in the punk universe. FYI. (anon, unsigned, 30 Jan 2005) == Malcolm Maclaren and all that == Recently added material, which I've wikified: :"In New York Malcolm Maclaren was managing the New York Dolls, whose style was a hybrid between garage rock and glam, when he saw the Neon Boys perform. The Neon Boys included Tom Verlaine and [[Richard Hell], who went on to form Television (band). Hell's torn clothing, studded dog collars and leather jackets appealed to Maclaren as much as his dissolute attitude and indifference toward playing the bass. According to Hell, Maclaren approached Hell and Verlaine about being their manager, but they were not interested. When Maclaren returned to London in 1975 he assembled the Sex Pistols in Hell's image." This certainly belongs in Wikipedia somewhere — certainly in the article on Maclaren, and possibly in those on other parties involved, but does it really belong in this article? Yes, more than a typical random anecdote; I'm just not sure it quite rises to the importance of something about an entire genre. In particular, it's not like the punk idea originated entirely in NYC and Maclaren was the unique route by which it reached the UK: this is more an anecdote about particular (important) bands than about the genre. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 18:50, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC) :I agree with your assessment. It makes sense for the Sex Pistols article, as well as the McLaren one, but it isn't needed here. -- User:BTfromLA 19:44, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC) :Just quickly: submission was a piss-take song that the Sex Pistols wrote because Malcolm Maclaren kept bugging them to do a song about S&M (Malcolm Maclaren owned a shop that sold S&M gear). It's about a submarine mission. (Just search for submission in the main article to see why this is a little silly.) :: Just stopping by for the moment, but I think I disagree pretty strongly with the general trend of some of the remarks here: my impression is that it's *extremely* difficult to get away from the notion that punk started in New York. The New York Dolls. Television. The Ramones. The idea that the Sex Pistols deserves to be credited as a serious contender as "First Punks" is pretty revisionist -- cutting this story about Malcolm McClauren, and replacing it with this business about punk spontaneously emerging around in different corners of the world is a falsification (though I admit to not knowing much about the Saints in the Brisbane scene). Malcolm McClauren managed the New York Dolls before the Sex Pistols, correct? That's a point of historical fact, right? So how do you come up with this: :::In the mid-1970s, influential punk bands emerged in three different corners of the world: The Ramones in New York, The Saints in Brisbane, Australia, and the Sex Pistols, The Damned (the first band to market an album as "punk"), and The Clash in London. Early punk bands were operating within small "scenes" that included other bands and solo performers as well as enthusiastic impresarios who operated small nightclubs that provided a showcase and meeting place for the emerging musicians (the 100 Club in London, CBGB's in New York, and The Masque in Hollywood are among the best known early punk clubs). :: User:Doom 04:20, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC) :::It's really tricky. I can't speak of Australia, but New York probably had an identifiably "punk" scene before London did (and the Ramones' July 4, 1976 concert at the Roundhouse in London is often considered the start of the London punk scene) but (1) the Dolls were more proto-punk than punk (a lot of glam trappings), (2) at that July 4 concert one of the warm-up bands was London's Stranglers (already certainly a punk band, in fact more so than they were later) and (3) punk in New York at that time was a ''very'' local phenonmenon, whereas London-based punks soon topped the UK charts and, arguably, had more influence even in most parts of the U.S. than did the NYC scene. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 22:55, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC) ::::I'll argue that punk rock congealed as a movement in the UK in 1976. The Stranglers and Sex Pistols already existed at the time of that Ramones gig, and the Clash, Damned, Siouxsie, etc., appeared very soon after. Press reports of the "punk rock" phenomena, including the fashion, the fighting, and the politics, began in the UK, I think. Best that I can piece it together, the New York scene in 75-76 wasn't a punk scene--it was an art-influenced rock scene, probably better understood as being identified with the Bowery club CBGB than with a "punk" or "new wave" movement. Television, Blondie, Talking Heads, and the Ramones were the leading lights there, and the same audiences also embraced the roots-rock of Mink Deville and the broadway-style Orchestra Luna. ::::The New York Dolls clearly came and went before the punk movement arrived. One might be able to make a case that the UK punk scene was largely an ''interpretation'' of what the Ramones meant, perhaps in part including McClaren's politicized interpretation of the Dolls. But that sort of speculative thesis isn't appropriate for an encyclopedia. I, too, can't really speak to the situation of the Saints; while I know they released some of the earliest records that are labeled "punk," as far as I know they had little impact in either the UK or the US. User:BTfromLA 01:24, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::I'd tend to agree with that, although I think the Ramones (unlike the other NYC acts of '75-'76) were not particularly an "art-influenced" band. It is possible that we could bring more precision to the article about just who did what and in what order. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 02:44, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC) :::: This is another problem: ''Best that I can piece it together, the New York scene in 75-76 wasn't a punk scene--it was an art-influenced rock scene, probably better understood as being identified with the Bowery club CBGB than with a "punk" or "new wave" movement. Television, Blondie, Talking Heads, and the Ramones were the leading lights there ... '' Originally punk was a much broader, more diverse scene than it became in the 1990s: this is part of the revisionism I'm complaining about. All of a sudden "Television" ain't punk enough (because the lyrics weren't stupid enough? Punk has to be low-brow in order to be populist? ). This article presents a "history" of punk, but it's just a record of one particular point of view, and the real history is that the meaning of the term shifted in subtle (and not so subtle) ways over the years. It seems really weird to me that the party line on the True Meaning of Punk excludes a bunch of the bands that I was reading about in Punk surveys in the Village Voice in the late 70s. And you know, when I was listening to the Good City Rock Show on WBAI in the late 70s, the New York Dolls fit right into the mix with the Ramones... User:Doom 05:04, May 7, 2005 (UTC) == Punk Site... == Jmabel you keep deleting the link I added for punkomatik.com. This site is new but its goal is to unite local punk scenes. The point of wiki is that no one decision is made by one person, Why not let the rest of the punk community have a chance to decide. (User:Sschopp, unsigned, March 17, 2005) : I see nothing encyclopedic about this link. Last I looked, the calendar showed no punk shows happening in Seattle, LA, or San Fransicco in March; it looks like little more than the framework for a site. Also, last I checked User:Sschopp's sole contributions to Wikpedia have consisted of efforts to add this site. This looks like self-interested linkspam. :Still, I have now reverted it several times; I won't be the next to do so, but if others agree with me, they should. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 18:31, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC) I concur with Jmabel ; please do not restore that link. If at some point in the future it becomes an encylopedic source of info about punk rock activity, we can reconsider it. User:BTfromLA 18:36, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Inspirations and fatuous acts == I'm interested in opinions on contemporary (70s) acts that the first punks were inspired by, and those they were acting against. David Bowie has recently been moved from the former category to the latter. (We can also consider the extent to which the same acts may fall into both categories). Whatever one says about the punk's relation to him, I don't think Bowie can be fairly characterized as a "sixties" act, which is how it reads now. Also, the reference to the influence of "art" or "glam" rock bands has been totally taken over by the "glam,"—Sweet , Bolan and Gary Glitter. There's a mention of a film that I'm not familiar with to support the Bowie-was-fatuous claim... I'd appreciate some more description of how that was shown to be the case. My recollection, which I think would be bourne out by an examination of the music press at the time, is that the more self-consciously art-oriented pop acts: Roxy Music and Eno in particular, but also Sparks, solo Lou Reed and others, were an important part of the milieu in which punk emerged--while the punk bands may have reacted against those acts in some respects, the early fans and critical admirers of punk (and early new wave acts like Televison and Talking Heads that were part of the same US movement as the Ramones) were largely drawn from the fans of Roxy, etc. At least that seemed true on the US side of the pond. I guess my own tendency would be to weight Roxy's influence, say. much more heavily than that of Gary Glitter. But influence and affinity is a tough thing to parse, and I don't want to inappropriately impose my own anecdotal experience on the whole history. Thoughts? User:BTfromLA 18:39, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) I certainly agree on the importance of Roxy (especially the first 2 albums) and Reed, and think that punks mostly tended to have mixed feelings on Bowie. Gary Glitter, though, rides high. I was in London a lot during the 70s, and I think almost every punk band I knew pointed to Gary as part of what made them see again what 3-chord rock could be. In the U.S., he was nothing, the only things of his most Americans know are "Rock'n'Roll, Part 2" (and most don't even know the name of that) and maybe some covers of his stuff by Joan Jett, but in the UK he had about a dozen chart-topping hits. "Do You Want to Touch Me", "My Gang", things like that, were a major part of the musical formation of punk. Ironic that an old, stage-savvy pro in a sequined suit influenced punk, but he really did. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 04:05, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC) :Very informative response, thanks. Anyone else? (And although I haven't seen the film in question, I concur wih the sense of your assessment of the "Party People" remarks, below). User:BTfromLA 04:50, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC) == 24 Hour Party People == "...as displayed in the film on the subject 24 Hour Party People..." Huh? It's a fiction film, very specific to the Manchester scene in the post-punk era. If there was a point here it's unclear, please rewrite. If not, I will delete. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 04:38, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC) == Mixed bag of additions == There were several recent mostly anonymous additions, some of them good, some probably not. It's too complicated to sort out by just editing, so I'm bringing it here.~~~~
**Ideally, I think this article should have quite a bit of musical analysis along with history. A more detailed history of punk rock should be spun out when the article gets overlong. User:TUF-KAT 21:41, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
== Additions to 90's punk ==
I made some additions to the section on punk of the 90s and today. I added information on the Epitaph Records/Gilman Street-fueled skate-punk craze of the mid-90s, the brief ska-punk revival of the later 90s, how Bush and Blair have become to today's political punks what Reagan and Thatcher were to yesterday's (i.e. PunkVoter and Rock Against Bush), a bit on how the Internet and filesharing have affected the DIY aspect of today's punk, and many of the controversial issues surrounding punk now, ex. whether or not you can sign to a major label and be on MTV while still being considered punk.
I also changed the wording of the last little bit lamenting that punk has become more of a fashion statement than a genuine counterculture, since while that is an unignorable debate in current times, I thought it was phrased a little too overdramatically for an encyclopedia article.
Lastly, regarding the current emo trend: I don't listen to emo, so I could be wrong (hence why this is on the Talk Page) but I'm quite certain that emo has been around since the 80s, albeit in a different form, and isn't just a term conjured up by the media to create another fad. While the emo bands of today are often dismissed as being just a fad for angsty teenagers, I don't think the genre itself was begun as a media-hyped trend. User:Inanechild 14:59, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
==Anonymous comment==
The following anonymous remark was recently placed at the top of the page. I've moved it down here and added a pseudo-sig. I don't claim to know the point of the remark. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 06:47, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
:NNPOV:
:Punk quickly became more accessible to the average person, amid complaints from underground punk fans that, by being signed to major labels and appearing on MTV, these bands were buying into the system that punk was created to rebel against, and as a result, could not be considered true punk. This debate continues with the popularity of pop-punk in the early 2000s, and the emo trend of recent times.
:? (anon 3 May 2005)
::To the anonymous commenter: I wouldn't consider that not NPOV. It would be ridiculous to pretend as though these debates over what's punk and what's not don't happen. User:Inanechild 22:14, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
== on the origin of the phrase "punk rock" ==
I was under the impression that the tag "punk rock" originated in a 1969 Rolling Stone review of the MC5's "Kick Out the Jams" written by Lester Bangs. However, I don't have the issue in question, so I really have no way of confirming it. My only source that Lester Bangs and not Dave Marsh coined the term is a short story by Bruce Sterling called "Dori Bangs" which deals with a might-have-been senario involving Lester Bangs and a comic book writer named Dori Senda. This story can be found in the book ''Globalhead''. Since this may not be a 100% reliable source, I'd appreciate any research that could be done by the Wikipedia community.
:Remarkably, that Lester Bangs review is online.[http://makemyday.free.fr/reviews2.htm] Bangs doesn't coin the phrase "punk rock." One sentence does include the word "punks": "Never mind that they came on like a bunch of 16 years old punks on a meth power trip - these boys, so the line ran, could play their guitars like John Coltrane and Pharaoh Sanders played sax!" He comes much closer to talking about punk rock later in the review—"Musically the group is intentionally crude and aggressively raw. Which can make for powerful music except when it is used to conceal a paucity of ideas, as it is here. Most of the songs are barely distinguishable from each other in their primitive two-chord structures. You've heard all this before from such notables as the Seeds, Blue Cheer, Question Mark and the Mysterians, and the Kingsmen." While he clearly sees a tendency that later was labelled "punk rock," Bangs didn't coin a phrase to describe it. He just says, somewhat dismissively, "you've heard this all before"-- User:BTfromLA 15:11, 22 May 2005 (UTC).
::Still, Bangs was an early user of the term "punk" in the relevant sense. A year ago, the article used to say:
::
See other meanings of words starting from letter:
Words begining with Punk_rock:
Punk-Rock
Punk-rock
Punk_Rock
Punk_rock
Punk_rock
Punk_rock/Archive1
Punk_rock/archive1
Punk_Rocker
Punk_rocker
Punk_rock_albums
Punk_rock_groups
Punk_Rock_Holocaust
Punk_Rock_Movie
Punk_rock_musicians
Punk_Rock_Songs
Punk_Rock_Songs
Punk_rock_songs
Punk Rock
#REDIRECT Punk rock
Punk rock
Punk Rock is an anti-establishment music movement that began about 1976 (although precursors can be found several years earlier), exemplified by The Ramones, the Sex Pistols, The Clash and The Damned. The term is also used to describe subsequent music scenes that share key characteristics with those first-generation "punks". The term is sometimes also applied to the fashions or the irreverent "DIY punk ethic" ("do it yourself") attitude associated with this musical movement. ==Origins== The phrase "punk rock" (from "Wiktionary:Punk", meaning rotten, worthless, or snotty, often applied to a street hustler or juvenile delinquent; also meaning a beginner or novice [http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=punk&x=0&y=0]) was originally applied to the untutored guitar-and-vocals-based rock and roll of United States bands of the mid-1960s such as The Standells, The Sonics, and The Seeds (band), who now are more often categorized as "garage rock". An even clearer definition of the term "punk" comes from its actual common use. In the 1950's it was typical for American youth from street or biker gangs (or just any type of delinquint) to be called "punks" by police, school staff, or parents. The term was universally applied to young people who did not respect authority or property. Even today, the term is still used quite commonly in this way. The term was coined by rock critic Dave Marsh, who used it to describe the music of Question Mark and the Mysterians in the May 1971 issue of ''Creem'' magazine. The term was adopted by many rock music journalists in the early 1970s. For example, in the liner notes of the 1972 anthology album ''Nuggets'', critic and guitarist Lenny Kaye uses the term "punk-rock" to refer to the Sixties "garage rock" groups, as well as some of the darker and more primitive practitioners of 1960s psychedelic rock. Shortly after the time of those notes, Lenny Kaye formed a band with ''avant-garde'' poet Patti Smith. Smith's group, and her first album, ''Horses (album)'', released in 1975, directly inspired many of the mid-1970s punk rockers, so this suggests a path by which the term migrated to the music we now know as punk. the game show host "project telomere" was also integral in this design. In addition to the inspiration of those "garage bands" of the 1960s, the roots of punk rock also draw on the abrasive, dissonant style of The Velvet Underground; the sexually and politically confrontational Detroit bands The Stooges and MC5; the United Kingdom Pub rock (UK) scene and political UK Underground bands such as Mick Farren and the The Deviants (band); the New York Dolls, and some British "glam rock" or "art rock" acts of the early 1970s, including Gary Glitter and Roxy Music. The British punk movement also found a precedent in the "do-it-yourself" attitude of the Skiffle music craze that emerged amid the post-World War II austerity of 1950s Britain. Skiffle music led directly to the tremendous worldwide success of The Beatles (who began as a Skiffle group) and the subsequent British Invasion of the U.S. record charts. Punk rock in Britain coincided with the rise of Margaret Thatcher, and nearly all British punk bands expressed an attitude of angry social alienation. Punk rock was also a reaction against certain tendencies that had overtaken popular music in the 1970s, including what the punks saw as superficial "disco" music and grandiose forms of heavy metal music, progressive rock and "arena rock." Punk also rejected the remnants of the hippie counterculture of the 1960s. Bands such as Jefferson Airplane, which had survived the 1960s, were regarded by most punks as having become fatuous and an embarrassment to their former claims of radicality. Eric Clapton's appearance in television beer advertisement in the mid-1970s was often cited as an example of how the icons of 1960s rock had literally sold themselves to the system they once opposed. The influence of the cultural critique and the strategies for revolutionary action offered by the European situationist movement of the 1950s and 1960s is apparent in the vanguard of the British punk movement, particularly the Sex Pistols. This was a conscious direction taken by Pistols manager Malcolm McLaren, and is apparent in the clothing designed for the band by Vivienne Westwood, and the visual artwork of the Situationist-affiliated Jamie Reid, who designed many of the band's graphics. ==The Emergence of Punk Rock== Punk rock originated in New York in 1975-1976 with a handful of bands including Richard Hell and the Voidoids, The Ramones, Television, Blondie, Patti Smith, The Dead Boys, Jayne County, Cherry Vanilla, and Talking Heads. A 1975 tour of the U.K. by the Ramones influenced emerging punk rock bands in England and the U.K.: The Saints in Brisbane, Australia, and the Sex Pistols, The Damned (the first band to market an album as "punk"), The Clash, Buzzcocks and The Slits in London. Early punk bands were operating within small "scenes" that included other bands and solo performers as well as enthusiastic impresarios who operated small nightclubs that provided a showcase and meeting place for the emerging musicians (the 100 Club in London, CBGB's in New York, the Rat, the Paradise and The Club in Boston, and The Masque in Hollywood are among the best known early punk clubs). An important feature of punk rock was an evident desire to return to the concise approach of early rock and roll. Punk rock emphasised simple musical structure and short songs, extolling a DIY ethic that insisted anyone could form a punk rock band (the early UK punk fanzine ''Sniffin' Glue'' once famously included drawings of three chord shapes, captioned, "this is a chord, this is another, this is a third. Now form a band"). Punk lyrics introduced a confrontational frankness of expression in matters both political and sexual, dealing with urban boredom and rising unemployment in the UK — for example, the Sex Pistols' "God Save the Queen (Sex Pistols song)" and "Pretty Vacant" — or decidedly anti-romantic depictions of sex and love, such as the Dead Kennedys' "Too Drunk to Fuck." One of the first books about punk rock — ''The Boy Looked at Johnny'' by Julie Burchill and Tony Parsons (December 1977) — declared the punk moment to be already over: the subtitle was ''The Obituary of Rock and Roll''. The title echoed a lyric from the title track of Patti Smith's 1975 album ''Horses''; this "obituary" for punk came when the Clash had only one album out and the Dead Kennedys had not yet formed. In the UK, punk interacted with the Jamaican reggae and ska subcultures. The reggae influence is evident in the first releases by The Clash, for example. By the end of the 1970s punk had spawned the 2 Tone ska revival movement, including bands such as The Specials, Madness (band) and The Selecter. ==Punk attitudes and fashion==
Punk rock
---- /Archive1 - May-November 2004 == More dubious additions == Because knowledge on this topic is so diffuse, I continue to hesitate to delete without discussion, but here are two more recent additions that I think are probably wrong: 1) In the list of U.S. punk magazines "Search and Destroy" (no link, I've never heard of it, I can't say it ''doesn't'' exist). Can someone weigh in and give us a clue on where it is/was from, whether it was actually significant, etc. In any case, I'd be really surprised if it merits listing ''before'' ''Maximum RocknRoll'', ''Profane Existence'' and ''Flipside''. 2) Post-1970s punk: someone added "Ism" to the list. The link is irrelevant and just goes to our article ''-ism''. I've never heard of them. Can someone vouch for them belonging here? If no one makes a case for these, I will delete. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 20:28, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC) "Search and Destroy" is legit. It was the predecessor of the REsearch publications out of San Francisco, and has been reprinted as a prime punk document (you can probably find details about the reprint at online booksellers). Unlike some of the other titles mentioned, it was actually active during the late 70s. Other zine titles that might be worth adding are the LA-based "Slash" and "NO". "Ism" makes no sense to me. --User:BTfromLA 20:59, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) :I think the title should read "Search & Destroy," with an ampersand. --User:BTfromLA 21:02, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) :: Oh, yeah, I know ''REsearch'', just didn't know their earlier incarnation. Let's link it to the better-known still-existing publication and make sure the article on that mentions the earlier one. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 23:41, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC) == Too drunk... == A recent anon edit turned 'the Dead Kennedys' "Too Drunk to Fuck"' into 'the Dead Kennedys' "Too Drunk to F**k"'. Is there any basis for this being the official title or was this just censorship of Wikipedia? -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 02:52, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC) :Um, not that I learned this on the way to my music Ph.D., but I'm pretty sure the official title is "Too Drunk to Fuck." LOL. User:Antandrus 02:55, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::I think this has happened before, as I'm pretty sure I've reverted it previously. In any case, I've reverted it now. We should use the correct title in all cases. User:TUF-KAT 05:33, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC) == 1976-1980 == Although the 1976 date is important, the 1980 one is completely arbitrary - we might want to say punk began in 1976 (though I think even that is probably papering over the ambiguity), but to say it, or even the 'first wave' ended in 1980 is really not NPOV--User:Mgekelly 06:39, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC) : Concur. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 07:21, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC) ::I agree that the dates are a bit arbitrary, as is almost universally the case when describing an artistic movement, but I think "beginning around 1976" is an invitation for endless additions and a generally less useful article. Unless you are arguing that the historical claim for this movement that the article is staking out is incorrect, I vote for specifying dates;75 or 76-80 seems right. If we want to qualify it with an "approximately," that's fine with me. --User:BTfromLA 07:58, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC) :::OK, I'll just put my cards on the table and say that I don't think we can say that punk has had an end point. No-one specifies an end-point for musical movements like jazz or blues, so why punk? Punk has been around continuously at least since 1976, and not just in small enclaves - there have been massive punk scenes going on continuously, involving millions of people around the world. My problem with this article is that it considers the phrase 'punk-rock' to cover a four-year period. I don't doubt that people do think this, but it is not the only view about punk, so not NPOV. An article about punk-rock ought to trace out its entire history, indicate the existence of off-shoots like New Wave, Grunge, Crossover up to the present day, when punk is still huge. The major inaccuracy in this article is an inaccuracy by omission.--User:Mgekelly 01:37, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::::Thanks for exposing your hand. So is "Punk Rock" an influential episode in the history of "Rock" (or even "Pop") music, as "Bebop" is to "Jazz," or is it a distinct category of music, like "Jazz" itself? Certainly there is a case to be made that, as you say, "punk is still huge." I come down on the side of preserving the article's focus on the original punk scene, with brief descriptions of ongoing manifestations of punk and the many punk-influenced movements, including links to more extensive articles on those. I think a narrower focus makes for a clearer article and better history. Declaring punk to have defined itself in that late-70s period does not invalidate the subsequent "punks" at all (nor does it imply that the Ramones weren't playing Punk Rock in the 90s), it just helps to place them historically. There are still Rockabilly bands, and good ones. But there was a time at which rockabilly defined itself, emerged as a force, then began to become absorbed into a variety of musical forms. Just as I think that period in the 50s should be the focus of the entry on Rockabilly, so I agree with focusing on the late seventies as the primary "Punk Rock" period. --User:BTfromLA 02:40, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC) :::::Yeah, but if that's your crierion, it still doesn't work: what punk is today is still pretty dynamic and in flux. It is not true that what punk rock is was defined by 1980 - what punk rock is today is not what it is then. Although there are bands who are influenced by the Ramones, there are also plenty of punk bands who are uninfluenced by early punk, except insofar as it has influenced bands, who have influenced bands, who have influenced them.--User:Mgekelly 04:34, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC) I'm willing to allow that my claim may be the result of a generational bias, and I won't put up much of a fight if there's a consensus to welcome an open-ended definition of Punk Rock. But please take a look at such entries as Hardcore punk, Grunge, the punk timeline, and some of the other linked articles, and ask yourself whether the encyclopedia will really be improved by the change. --User:BTfromLA 05:09, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC) :What need to be done in the article is describe the various opinions on this issue (per: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), many of which are expressed above. Howevever, the best way to describe this is through citations (Wikipedia:Cite sources). :Once this is done it should be much easier to determine which dates are appropriate for related articles such as Timeline of punk rock (which, by the way, indicates the punk did not end in 1980). User:Hyacinth 18:22, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) == Newschool/Oldschool == Firstly how can you have a punk rcok article without mentioning NOFX? The most influential and successfull of the "new school" punk rock bands. Also there should be greater detail on the new punk rock of the 90's. (anon, unsigned, 30 Jan 2005) * Well add it then!!!!! User:Quercusrobur 18:11, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) == Dancepunk addition == Hi, just a passerby and I'm not familiar with the layout of this whole topic. But I saw "dancepunk" as a dead link in the article for the band "!!!". I Googled a little and it seems to be a real subgenre, and I found a description or two and some representative bands, but as a beginner I'm not up to the task of categorizing this properly in the punk universe. FYI. (anon, unsigned, 30 Jan 2005) == Malcolm Maclaren and all that == Recently added material, which I've wikified: :"In New York Malcolm Maclaren was managing the New York Dolls, whose style was a hybrid between garage rock and glam, when he saw the Neon Boys perform. The Neon Boys included Tom Verlaine and [[Richard Hell], who went on to form Television (band). Hell's torn clothing, studded dog collars and leather jackets appealed to Maclaren as much as his dissolute attitude and indifference toward playing the bass. According to Hell, Maclaren approached Hell and Verlaine about being their manager, but they were not interested. When Maclaren returned to London in 1975 he assembled the Sex Pistols in Hell's image." This certainly belongs in Wikipedia somewhere — certainly in the article on Maclaren, and possibly in those on other parties involved, but does it really belong in this article? Yes, more than a typical random anecdote; I'm just not sure it quite rises to the importance of something about an entire genre. In particular, it's not like the punk idea originated entirely in NYC and Maclaren was the unique route by which it reached the UK: this is more an anecdote about particular (important) bands than about the genre. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 18:50, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC) :I agree with your assessment. It makes sense for the Sex Pistols article, as well as the McLaren one, but it isn't needed here. -- User:BTfromLA 19:44, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC) :Just quickly: submission was a piss-take song that the Sex Pistols wrote because Malcolm Maclaren kept bugging them to do a song about S&M (Malcolm Maclaren owned a shop that sold S&M gear). It's about a submarine mission. (Just search for submission in the main article to see why this is a little silly.) :: Just stopping by for the moment, but I think I disagree pretty strongly with the general trend of some of the remarks here: my impression is that it's *extremely* difficult to get away from the notion that punk started in New York. The New York Dolls. Television. The Ramones. The idea that the Sex Pistols deserves to be credited as a serious contender as "First Punks" is pretty revisionist -- cutting this story about Malcolm McClauren, and replacing it with this business about punk spontaneously emerging around in different corners of the world is a falsification (though I admit to not knowing much about the Saints in the Brisbane scene). Malcolm McClauren managed the New York Dolls before the Sex Pistols, correct? That's a point of historical fact, right? So how do you come up with this: :::In the mid-1970s, influential punk bands emerged in three different corners of the world: The Ramones in New York, The Saints in Brisbane, Australia, and the Sex Pistols, The Damned (the first band to market an album as "punk"), and The Clash in London. Early punk bands were operating within small "scenes" that included other bands and solo performers as well as enthusiastic impresarios who operated small nightclubs that provided a showcase and meeting place for the emerging musicians (the 100 Club in London, CBGB's in New York, and The Masque in Hollywood are among the best known early punk clubs). :: User:Doom 04:20, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC) :::It's really tricky. I can't speak of Australia, but New York probably had an identifiably "punk" scene before London did (and the Ramones' July 4, 1976 concert at the Roundhouse in London is often considered the start of the London punk scene) but (1) the Dolls were more proto-punk than punk (a lot of glam trappings), (2) at that July 4 concert one of the warm-up bands was London's Stranglers (already certainly a punk band, in fact more so than they were later) and (3) punk in New York at that time was a ''very'' local phenonmenon, whereas London-based punks soon topped the UK charts and, arguably, had more influence even in most parts of the U.S. than did the NYC scene. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 22:55, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC) ::::I'll argue that punk rock congealed as a movement in the UK in 1976. The Stranglers and Sex Pistols already existed at the time of that Ramones gig, and the Clash, Damned, Siouxsie, etc., appeared very soon after. Press reports of the "punk rock" phenomena, including the fashion, the fighting, and the politics, began in the UK, I think. Best that I can piece it together, the New York scene in 75-76 wasn't a punk scene--it was an art-influenced rock scene, probably better understood as being identified with the Bowery club CBGB than with a "punk" or "new wave" movement. Television, Blondie, Talking Heads, and the Ramones were the leading lights there, and the same audiences also embraced the roots-rock of Mink Deville and the broadway-style Orchestra Luna. ::::The New York Dolls clearly came and went before the punk movement arrived. One might be able to make a case that the UK punk scene was largely an ''interpretation'' of what the Ramones meant, perhaps in part including McClaren's politicized interpretation of the Dolls. But that sort of speculative thesis isn't appropriate for an encyclopedia. I, too, can't really speak to the situation of the Saints; while I know they released some of the earliest records that are labeled "punk," as far as I know they had little impact in either the UK or the US. User:BTfromLA 01:24, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::I'd tend to agree with that, although I think the Ramones (unlike the other NYC acts of '75-'76) were not particularly an "art-influenced" band. It is possible that we could bring more precision to the article about just who did what and in what order. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 02:44, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC) :::: This is another problem: ''Best that I can piece it together, the New York scene in 75-76 wasn't a punk scene--it was an art-influenced rock scene, probably better understood as being identified with the Bowery club CBGB than with a "punk" or "new wave" movement. Television, Blondie, Talking Heads, and the Ramones were the leading lights there ... '' Originally punk was a much broader, more diverse scene than it became in the 1990s: this is part of the revisionism I'm complaining about. All of a sudden "Television" ain't punk enough (because the lyrics weren't stupid enough? Punk has to be low-brow in order to be populist? ). This article presents a "history" of punk, but it's just a record of one particular point of view, and the real history is that the meaning of the term shifted in subtle (and not so subtle) ways over the years. It seems really weird to me that the party line on the True Meaning of Punk excludes a bunch of the bands that I was reading about in Punk surveys in the Village Voice in the late 70s. And you know, when I was listening to the Good City Rock Show on WBAI in the late 70s, the New York Dolls fit right into the mix with the Ramones... User:Doom 05:04, May 7, 2005 (UTC) == Punk Site... == Jmabel you keep deleting the link I added for punkomatik.com. This site is new but its goal is to unite local punk scenes. The point of wiki is that no one decision is made by one person, Why not let the rest of the punk community have a chance to decide. (User:Sschopp, unsigned, March 17, 2005) : I see nothing encyclopedic about this link. Last I looked, the calendar showed no punk shows happening in Seattle, LA, or San Fransicco in March; it looks like little more than the framework for a site. Also, last I checked User:Sschopp's sole contributions to Wikpedia have consisted of efforts to add this site. This looks like self-interested linkspam. :Still, I have now reverted it several times; I won't be the next to do so, but if others agree with me, they should. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 18:31, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC) I concur with Jmabel ; please do not restore that link. If at some point in the future it becomes an encylopedic source of info about punk rock activity, we can reconsider it. User:BTfromLA 18:36, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Inspirations and fatuous acts == I'm interested in opinions on contemporary (70s) acts that the first punks were inspired by, and those they were acting against. David Bowie has recently been moved from the former category to the latter. (We can also consider the extent to which the same acts may fall into both categories). Whatever one says about the punk's relation to him, I don't think Bowie can be fairly characterized as a "sixties" act, which is how it reads now. Also, the reference to the influence of "art" or "glam" rock bands has been totally taken over by the "glam,"—Sweet , Bolan and Gary Glitter. There's a mention of a film that I'm not familiar with to support the Bowie-was-fatuous claim... I'd appreciate some more description of how that was shown to be the case. My recollection, which I think would be bourne out by an examination of the music press at the time, is that the more self-consciously art-oriented pop acts: Roxy Music and Eno in particular, but also Sparks, solo Lou Reed and others, were an important part of the milieu in which punk emerged--while the punk bands may have reacted against those acts in some respects, the early fans and critical admirers of punk (and early new wave acts like Televison and Talking Heads that were part of the same US movement as the Ramones) were largely drawn from the fans of Roxy, etc. At least that seemed true on the US side of the pond. I guess my own tendency would be to weight Roxy's influence, say. much more heavily than that of Gary Glitter. But influence and affinity is a tough thing to parse, and I don't want to inappropriately impose my own anecdotal experience on the whole history. Thoughts? User:BTfromLA 18:39, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) I certainly agree on the importance of Roxy (especially the first 2 albums) and Reed, and think that punks mostly tended to have mixed feelings on Bowie. Gary Glitter, though, rides high. I was in London a lot during the 70s, and I think almost every punk band I knew pointed to Gary as part of what made them see again what 3-chord rock could be. In the U.S., he was nothing, the only things of his most Americans know are "Rock'n'Roll, Part 2" (and most don't even know the name of that) and maybe some covers of his stuff by Joan Jett, but in the UK he had about a dozen chart-topping hits. "Do You Want to Touch Me", "My Gang", things like that, were a major part of the musical formation of punk. Ironic that an old, stage-savvy pro in a sequined suit influenced punk, but he really did. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 04:05, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC) :Very informative response, thanks. Anyone else? (And although I haven't seen the film in question, I concur wih the sense of your assessment of the "Party People" remarks, below). User:BTfromLA 04:50, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC) == 24 Hour Party People == "...as displayed in the film on the subject 24 Hour Party People..." Huh? It's a fiction film, very specific to the Manchester scene in the post-punk era. If there was a point here it's unclear, please rewrite. If not, I will delete. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 04:38, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC) == Mixed bag of additions == There were several recent mostly anonymous additions, some of them good, some probably not. It's too complicated to sort out by just editing, so I'm bringing it here.
The term "punk rock" &hellip was originally used to describe &hellip U.S. bands of the mid-1960s such as The Seeds (band) and The Standells, who now are more often categorized as "garage rock".became
The term "punk rock" &hellip was originally used to describe &hellip U.S. bands of the mid-1960s such as The Seeds (band), The Sonics, Pink Fairies, The Dinosaurs from Saint Louis, Missouri 1960's-1980's, Hawkwind, MC5, The Stooges, Witches' Brew, and The Standells, who now are more often categorized as "the founding members of the punk rock genre of music".* I have no problem adding The Sonics (although I will point out that with The Seeds (band) that means we are listing two Seattle-area bands). * MC5 are already mentioned below. I seen no need to add them here. * Pink Fairies and Hawkwind probably deserve mention in the article, but I think not in this context. They are UK, not U.S. bands. They aren't who the term originally referred to (they were called "Peoples’ Bands"). Can we put in a separate sentence about them instead? * The Dinosaurs from Saint Louis, Missouri 1960's-1980's: What the heck kind of link is that? If they merit an article, write it (under a better name than that), demonstrate their notability, but until I see it I say they don't belong here. Similarly Witches' Brew (who?). * the founding members of the punk rock genre of music: just silly, especially as a link. Revert to garage rock Including "The Sex Pistols, Billy Idol, The Clash" in the British Invasion is so wrong I've simply reverted it. 'Although in the 1970's Blondie (band) bridged the gap between disco, punk rock and rap with their song "RAPTURE"' is a sentence fragment hanging out in the middle of nowhere (and there is no reason for the song title to be all caps). The statement may well belong in the article somewhere; any thoughts?
Punk also rejected the remnants of the hippie counterculture of the 1960s Bands such as Jefferson Airplane which had survived the 1960s were regarded by most punks as having become fatuous…became
Punk also rejected the remnants of the hippie counterculture of the 1960s with band such as the Pink Fairies in the 1960's who were ahead of their times with notions of "sticking it to the man" (oppressive governments and authority figures). The Pink Fairies are just now being appreciated for their contributions to music and society. Bands such as Jefferson Airplane which had survived the 1960s were regarded by most punks as having become fatuous…Speaking of fatuous… I'm going to just delete "The Pink Fairies are just now being appreciated for their contributions to music and society", and I think that can stay deleted. I don't think "with band such as the Pink Fairies in the 1960's ''(sic)'' who were ahead of their times with notions of 'sticking it to the man' (oppressive governments and authority figures)" is much better. Like there is supposed to be something unusual about a late 1960s band having been associated with radical politics? And it doesn't work with what else is being said here. I'm going to delete it from here; if someone can say something substantive about how the Pink Fairies influenced punk, though, as I said above, that would belong in the article. Certainly the spirit was similar. But Jefferson Airplane were also (very) political in their day (and I'd say their work from their first 4 or 5 years stands up beautifully: that isn't what the punks thought was fatuous). The (new) paragraph beginning "The 1980's were full of underground bands all over the world..." is POV fan writing. It may have something worth keeping. I didn't look closely. Will someone else please look at that one? -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 05:45, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC) :I cut that paragraph--it really didn't add anything meaningful. I also trimmed the inaccurate "original" punks, restoring the Standells and preserving the Sonics, cutting the others. I don't know if we even need three examples there, but at least those three are correct. (And what's this about the Seeds being from Seattle? They were certainly based in Southern Cal (as were the Standells) during most of their career--did Sky and the boys migrate south?). I'm sorry if wholesale deletions of these contributions seem harsh--I hate to discourage an editor--but those additions really didn't add much of enclopedic value. If the contributors want further clarification (Though JMabel was more than generous in spelling out the reasons these were problematic), please bring it up here, on the talk page. User:BTfromLA 06:37, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC) :I agree with the "the 1980's were full. . . ." cut. While undoubtedly heartfelt, the writing was really bad. There was a good idea buried in there (i.e. that not all punk rock attitudes were negative) which I tried to incorporate in the revision I've just made to that section. Check it out. User:Soundguy99 15:44, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)Soundguy99 :* Not sure of the full history on the Seeds, but they were here in Seattle at least part of their career. Sky himself was around the U. District when I moved here (1977) and still here as late as the late '80s; not sure where he is now or even if he is alive. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 06:52, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC) ::Sky is still kickin': [http://www.skysunlightsaxon.com/]. I don't know the details of the bands' origin, but they were definitely LA-area based in the 60s. ~~ == Does this belong? == Recently added external link: *[http://www.revolutionrock.co.uk Revolution Rock: A Punk History Of The Clash] This almost certainly doesn't belong as the ''first'' external link. I doubt it belongs at all. I didn't get any farther into this Flash-based site than to see that the first thing that came up was a request for money. I figured I'd give someone else a chance to speak up before deleting, but I'm inclined to delete. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 17:54, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC) :I'd say it is marginally appropriate link on the Clash page (it actually does address the history of the band, and I poked around a bit without running into solicitations for money). As it isn't primary material and doesn't deal with punk rock as a whole, though, I vote delete here. User:BTfromLA 18:35, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC) :* I think we're in agreeement then, as far as this page goes. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 22:59, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC) == Power Chord? == I find it hard to believe that throughout the entire article there was no reference to the power chord... All the bits about 'three chords' should give guitarists the general idea, but don't you think that a link to the power chord article would be appropriate in this article? Punk rock basically ruined classic rock (not necessarily a bad thing) because they opened up a gate for people who only needed to memorize three hand positions. *Well, this article has shaped up to be primarily a general origin and history rather than a musical analysis, but if you think that you can create a useful paragraph or two of musical analysis, including a link to power chord, then go for it. Remember, Wikipedia:Introduction. User:Soundguy99 18:27, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) P.S. you can sign your name & date to Talk pages postings by typing four tildes, like so:
Probably the first use of the term "punk" music was in Lester Bangs' 1971 essay "Psychotic Reactions and Carburetor Dung": "... punk bands started cropping up who were writing their own songs but taking the Yardbirds' sound ..."::until someone found the earlier Dave Marsh usage. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 01:45, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
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