
#redirectProgressive rock
Progressive rock (shortened to prog, or prog rock when differentiating from other "progressive..." genres) is an ambitious, eclectic, and often grandiose style of Rock and roll which arose in the late 1960s, reached the peak of its popularity in the early 1970s, and continues as a musical form to this day. Progressive rock began in England and remained largely a European movement, although there are a few notable United States of America and Canada progressive rock bands. This music style draws many influences from classical music and jazz fusion, in contrast to American rock, which was more influenced by R&B and country music. Over the years various sub-genres of progressive rock have emerged, such as symphonic rock, art rock, math rock and progressive metal. Progressive rock artists sought to move away from the limitations of popular rock and pop music formats, and "progress" rock to the point that it could achieve new forms, often but not always alluding to the sophistication of jazz or classical music. It is ''complexity'', not the virtuosity of the musicians, which most distinguishes progressive rock: mainstream rock has some extremely talented musicians who work solely in simple meters and harmonies. Progressive rock is difficult to define in a single conclusive way, and outspoken King Crimson leader Robert Fripp has voiced his disdain for the term. The major acts that defined the genre in the 1970s (Jethro Tull (band), Yes (band), Genesis (band), Pink Floyd, Emerson Lake and Palmer, Rush_(band) and King Crimson) do not sound especially alike. There is also debate on whether the musical output of artists and bands as varied as Frank Zappa, Phish, and Radiohead belongs to the genre. ==Characteristics of progressive rock== Some common, though not universal, elements of progressive rock include: * Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies. These are often described as epics and are the genre's clearest nod to classical music. A very early example (perhaps the first multi-part suite to appear in prog rock) is "In Held Twas I" by Procol Harum, clocking in at 17:30. Other famous examples include Pink Floyd's 23-minute "Echoes", Jethro Tull (band)'s "Thick as a Brick" (43 minutes), Yes' "Close to the Edge" (18 minutes), Rick Wakeman's "Music Reincarnate" (28 minutes), Genesis' "Supper's Ready" (23 minutes), and Van der Graaf Generator's "A plague of Lighthouse Keepers" (20 minutes). More recent extreme examples are the 60-minute "Light of Day, Day of Darkness" by Green Carnation, "Garden of Dreams" by The Flower Kings and "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence" by Dream Theater. * Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives, covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, and Mental illness. Most of the English progressive rock bands avoided direct political commentary, preferring to couch their views in fictional or allegorical settings -- for example, Genesis' album ''Selling England by the Pound'' is tied together by a theme of commercialism versus naturalism, while Emerson, Lake and Palmer's ''Brain Salad Surgery'' gradually progresses from nature to technology to illustrate the dangers of man being replaced by machine. Other early 1970s progressive rock bands (especially German ones) featured lyrics concerned with left-wing politics and social issues. * Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play. In the days of vinyl, these were usually two-record sets with strikingly designed gatefold sleeves. Famous examples include ''Journey to the Centre of the Earth'' by Rick Wakeman, ''The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway'' by Genesis, ''Tales from Topographic Oceans'' by Yes, ''2112'' and ''Hemispheres (1978 album)'' by Rush, ''Dark Side of the Moon'' and ''The Wall'' by Pink Floyd, and the more recent ''Operation: Mindcrime'' by Queensrÿche, ''Metropolis, Pt. 2: Scenes From a Memory'' by Dream Theater and ''Snow'' by Spock's Beard. The Mars Volta's albums "De-loused in the Comatorium" and "Frances the Mute" both follow storylines which are conveyed by both the music and the lyrics. ''Aqualung'', perhaps the best-known record by Jethro Tull (band), is often regarded as a concept album due to its recurring themes, but songwriter Ian Anderson has always claimed that the album is just "a bunch of songs". * Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma (band), Robert Wyatt, Gentle Giant, Ian Anderson, Spock's Beard, and James LaBrie. * Prominent use of electronic instrument — particularly keyboard instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer, in addition to the usual rock combination of electric guitar, bass guitar and drums. More recently, many bands have experimented with wave manipulation and editing, as well as the methods mentioned above. * Use of unusual time signatures, musical scales, or musical tunings. Many pieces use multiple time signatures and/or tempo, sometimes concurrently. * Solo passages for virtually every instrument. This is the sort of thing that contributed to the fame of such performers as keyboardist Rick Wakeman and drummer Neil Peart. * A coordination between the rhythm section of the band, more specifically between the bassist and the drummer. The rhythm section often uses countertempos and other techniques that contrast what the rest of the band is doing in conjunction. Examples of this can be found in rhythm sections like those of Chris Squire and Bill Bruford of Yes, John Wetton and Bruford of King Crimson, Mike Rutherford and Phil Collins of Genesis, and others. * Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Emerson Lake and Palmer have performed arrangements of pieces by Aaron Copland, Béla Bartók, Modest Moussorgsky, Sergei Prokofiev, Leos Janacek, Alberto Ginastera, and often feature quotes from Johann Sebastian Bach in lead breaks. Jethro Tull (band) recorded a version of a Bourrée by Johann Sebastian Bach, in which they turned the piece into a "sleazy jazzy night-club song", according to Ian Anderson, Renaissance (band) and Muse frequently use Rakhmaninov-style piano interludes and Marillion opened their live album of the same name with an excerpt from Gioacchino Rossini's ''La Gazza Ladra'' (The Thieving Magpie). * An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by The Beatles with ''Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band'' and enthusiastically embraced during the prog heyday. Some bands became as well-known for the art direction of their albums as for their sound, with the "look" integrated into the band's overall musical identity. This led to fame for particular artists and design studios, most notably Roger Dean, whose paintings and logo design for Yes are so essential to the band's identity they could be said to serve the same function as corporate branding. Hipgnosis became equally famous for their unusual sleeves for Pink Floyd, often featuring experimental photography quite innovative for the time (two men shaking hands, one of whom is in flames, are featured on the re-release album cover of ''Wish You Were Here''). H.R. Giger's painting for Emerson Lake and Palmer's ''Brain Salad Surgery'' is one of the most famous album sleeves ever produced. Hugh Syme is another artist to become famous, mostly for his work on every Rush album cover since 1975's Fly By Night. *The use of sound effects in compositions. For example: the sound of a heartbeat at the beginning and end of Pink Floyd's ''Dark Side of the Moon''; sounds of warfare throughout Jethro Tull's single "Warchild". Progressive rock compositions sometimes take the following forms: * A piece that is subdivided into movements in the manner of a classical suite. Examples are the four-part "Tales from Topographic Oceans" by Yes, six-part "Hemispheres" by Rush, and the seven-part "A Change of Seasons" by Dream Theater. All of TransAtlantic's epics are multipart. In addition, The Mars Volta's "Frances the Mute" features three tracks, out of the five, which are broken down into movements. In a few cases, a progressive rock piece follows the outline of a specific classical form, such as the four-part sonata form used by Yes' "Close to the Edge". * A piece that is composed of a patchwork of musical themes that could conceivably stand as individual songs, but together serve to relate a complete narrative through music. Examples are "Supper's Ready" on Genesis' ''Foxtrot'' (the "Willow Farm" section of which was played as a single), "A Day in the Life" on ''Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band'' and the B-side of ''Abbey Road'' by The Beatles, Jethro Tull's ''Aqualung'' from the album of the same name, and "The Gates of Delirium" on Yes's album ''Relayer'' (from which the single "Soon" was taken). * A piece that allows the development of musical ideas via progressions or variations in the manner of a bolero or a canon. "King Kong" on Frank Zappa's ''Uncle Meat'' is an example. ==History of progressive rock== Progressive rock was born from a variety of musical influences in the late 1960s. The later Beatles and many psychedelic bands began to combine traditional rock music with instruments from classical and Eastern music. Psychedelic music continued this experimental trend and began to compose very long pieces, although usually without any carefully thought-out structure (for example, Iron Butterfly's "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida"). Bands such as The Nice and the Moody Blues began deliberately combining rock music with classical music, producing longer pieces with deliberate structures. These bands are sometimes considered "early progressive" and sometimes considered a transitional genre between psychedelic and progressive. Many music historians point to King Crimson as the first "true" progressive rock band; their first appearance was in February 1969. They were quickly followed by other English progressive rock bands, including Yes, Genesis (band), Emerson Lake and Palmer, Jethro Tull, and Pink Floyd. It is worth noting that Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, and Pink Floyd all began their careers ''before'' King Crimson, and all changed their musical styles considerably following the release of "In the Court of the Crimson King". Progressive rock also gained momentium when many rock fans grew disillusioned with the "Peace and Love" movement. The major characteristic of progressive music is when the progressive movement distanced itself from the "smiles and sunshine" of 1960's pop music and moved towards darker and sometimes more violent themes. For example, in 1970, when Genesis released ''Trespass'', they had a song called "The Knife," which spoke of violent revolution or their other song, "Stagnation" where a survivor of a nuclear attack tells his side of the story. Unlike psychedelic music, progressive rock also allowed for more music experimentation. For example, Jethro Tull released two albums where one song spanned the entire album: ''Thick As A Brick'' (1972) and ''A Passion Play'' (1973). Progressive rock was especially popular in continental Europe. Indeed, progressive rock was the first form of rock that actually captivated countries such as Italy and France. This era saw a great number of European progressive rock bands, most notably Premiata Forneria Marconi, Banco del Mutuo Soccorso, and Le Orme from Italy, and Ange and Magma (band) from France. Of these bands, only PFM was significantly successful in the English-speaking world. Fans and music historians have a variety of way to categorize the flavors of 1970's progressive rock. The Canterbury Scene can be considered a sub-genre of progressive rock, or simply another collection of true progressive rock bands. Other bands took the genre in a more commercial direction; these bands, including Renaissance (band) and Electric Light Orchestra are sometimes classified as "progressive rock", "commercial rock", or "symphonic pop". Progressive rock's popularity peaked in the mid-1970s, when prog artists regularly topped readers' votes in mainstream popular music magazines in England and America. By this time, several New World progressive rock bands had been formed, including Rush (from Canada), Kansas (band) (from Kansas, of course), and the Dixie Dregs (from Georgia (U.S. state)). With the advent of punk rock in the late 1970s, popular and critical opinion in England and America moved toward a simpler and more aggressive style of rock, with progressive rock increasingly dismissed as pretentious and overblown. This attitude has remained common to the present day, though it has begun to diminish since about 2004. The early 1980s saw something of a revival of the genre, led by artists such as Marillion, IQ, Saga, and Kate Bush. Groups that arose during this time are sometimes termed neo-progressive. Around the same time, some progressive rock stalwarts changed musical direction, simplifying their music and including more obviously electronic elements. In 1982, the much anticipated supergroup Asia, composed of Steve Howe (Yes), Carl Palmer (ELP), John Wetton (King Crimson), and Geoff Downes (Yes), surprised and disappointed with their pop oriented debut album. In 1983, Genesis achieved international success with the song "Mama", with its heavy emphasis on a drum machine riff. In 1984, Yes had a surprise number one hit with the song "Owner of a Lonely Heart", which contained contemporary electronic effects and was accessible enough to be played at discos, and more recently has been remixed into a Trance single. Many progressive rock fans were unhappy with the direction taken by such bands during this time. It should be noted that the term "progressive" in the early 1970's had been coined to emphasize the ''newness'' of these bands, but by the 1980's the term had become the name of a specific musical style. As a result, bands such as King Crimson which continued to update their sound were not always called "progressive", while some newer self-described "prog" bands purchased vintage mellotrons in order to recreate the sound of early 1970's prog. Fans and hostile critics alike had established "progressive rock" as the permanent name of this genre, and so the connection to the usual meaning of "progressive" became irrelevant. The progressive rock genre enjoyed another revival in the 1990s with the so-called "Third Wave", spearheaded by such bands as Sweden's The Flower Kings, the UK's Porcupine Tree, and Spock's Beard from the United States. One of the most important bands of the alternative rock movement, The Smashing Pumpkins, incorporated progressive rock into their unique, eclectic style, going so far as to release two albums dealing with the same concept. In recent years, the most commercially viable category of prog has been progressive metal. These bands are usually happy to be known as progressive, although the music bears very little resemblance to the original progressive rock form, and produce very long pieces and concept albums. Several of the leading bands in the prog-metal genre (particularly Dream Theater (United States) and Opeth (Sweden)) cite pioneer progressive hard-rockers Rush as a prime influence, although their music shows more influence from bands such as Yes or Metallica. Meanwhile, other heavy metal bands ''not'' generally considered prog-metal, such as System of a Down, have nevertheless incorporated prog-influenced elements like bizarre shifts in time signatures and tempo in their music. The work of contemporary artists such as Ween and post-rock bands like Sigur Rós and Godspeed You! Black Emperor and Muse could be said to incorporate some of the experimental elements of progressive rock, sometimes combined with the aesthetic sensibilities of punk rock to produce music which many find challenging, innovative and imaginative. A better example of a contemporary post-rock band however is probably The Mars Volta, who are notable for intentionally fusing punk with progressive rock, two elements once polar opposites. Among more experimental and avant garde musicians, the Japan composer Takashi Yoshimatsu publicly cites progressive rock bands as a prime influence on his work. There are also a number of contemporary prog bands, such as Mostly Autumn that combine Celtic, and sometimes pagan, influences with earlier prog rock styles. Other bands of note incorporating progressive rock into their sound, both signed and unsigned include Blood Brothers, Dog Bone Sanctuary, Dolour, Mastodon, Foo Fighters, Ruby Doe, Turn to Fall, Vendetta Red, Vindaloo. ==See also== * List of popular songs based on classical music * List of progressive rock musicians * The Canterbury Scene * Progressive metal * List of songs over fifteen minutes in length (not limited to prog rock) ==External links== * [http://www.proGGnosis.com/Main.asp ProGGnosis-Progressive Rock & Fusion] * [http://www.progreviews.com/ Ground and Sky progressive rock reviews] * [http://www.gnosis2000.net/ Gnosis - huge prog album database] * [http://www.gepr.net/ Gibraltar Encyclopedia of Progressive Rock] * [http://www.classicrocksociety.com/ The UK based Classic Rock Society] * [http://www.progressiveears.com/ ProgressiveEars online discussion forum] * [http://www.dprp.net/ Dutch Progressive Rock Page] * [http://www.cs.uu.nl/people/jur/progrock.html Axiom of Choice] * [http://www.newears.org/ New England Art Rock Society] * [http://manticornio.com/ Manticornio] (in Spanish) * [http://www.progarchives.com/ Prog Archives] * [http://musicmoz.org/Styles/Rock/Progressive/ MusicMoz Directory - Progressive Rock] * [http://home.online.no/~schoenen/ Tommy's Forest of Progressive Rock] * [http://www.somethingprog.com Somethingprog] * [http://www.babyblaue-seiten.de Babyblaue Seiten: Prog-Reviews] (in German) * [http://www.bajaprog.org/ BajaProg festival] * [http://www.rosfest.com/ Rites Of Spring festival] * [http://www.prog4you.com/ Prog4you.com] * [http://www.pprcmusic.com/ Philly Prog Rock Connection] * [http://melosprogbazaar.com Melo's Prog Bazaar - Progressive Rock Forum] * [http://www.musearecords.com/ Musea Records] Non-profit record label, dedicated to the promotion of Progressive Rock. * [http://www.agarthaprog.com/ Agarthaprog] Italian site dedicated to progressive rock * [http://www.ghostland.com/ Ghostland] * [http://www.coloradoprog.com/ Colorado Art Rock Society] ==Further reading== * Lucky, Jerry. ''The Progressive Rock Files'' Burlington, Ontario: Collector's Guide Publishing, Inc (1998), 304 pages, ISBN 1896522106 (paperback). Gives an overview of progressive rock's history as well as histories of the major and underground bands in the genre. * Macan, Edward. ''Rocking the Classics: English Progressive Rock and the Counterculture.'' Oxford: Oxford University Press (1997), 290 pages, ISBN 00195098870 (hardcover), ISBN 00195098889 (paperback). Analyzes progressive rock using classical musicology and also sociology. * Martin, Bill. ''Listening to the Future: The Time of Progressive Rock.'' Peru, Ill.: Carus Publishing Company (1998), 356 pages, ISBN 081269368X (paperback). An enthusiastic analysis of progressive rock, intermixed with the author's Marxism political views. Progressive rock Rock music genres
==Miscellaneous rewrites == I realize everyone has their own pet bands they want to talk about, but I had to add a line about the band Asia. I remember prog fans' huge anticipation of this mixing of King Crimson, Yes, and ELP, and having to listen to the album over and over because I simply could not believe my ears. Due to its visibility and stunning reorientation, Asia alone could represent the early 80's turnaround. :Fair enough... but the fact that you wrote "suprised and disappointed" is POV writing... what, ''no one'' in the world was not disappointed by it? User:PlattopusUser_talk:Plattopus 16:01, May 6, 2005 (UTC) : I knew, but it's a tough one. I assume there are subtle pov philosophy debates on wikipedia, so maybe someone will edit my words in a way that will capture in a few words a reasonable representation of who thought Asia was going to be what, and what they considered Asia to be once the group appeared. After all, even "much anticipated" is still pov, and I assume everyone acknowledges you're always caught within pov. ---- Hi, I wonder if it wouldn't be more wise to mention first what prog rock IS and only than mention elements that are common to prog rock but not necessery. If there are no objections, I'm going to change the phrasing a bit. -User:Marduk 18:16, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC) ---- I removed the last paragraph from the article because he was too problematic in my view: "Today, progressive rock continues to be created and admired by a solid core of enthusiasts, but seems to be paid little attention by the mainstream music press and receives virtually no radio airplay. The genre can no longer convincingly claim to be progressing rock music at the rate it once did, and those innovations that are being made are usually ignored or derided by the commercial world at large, and by progressive rock enthusiasts themselves." 1. 'Today' is not encyclopedic. 2. "The genre can no longer convincingly claim to be progressing rock music at the rate it once did" - progressing rock? come on, that sounds awful. 3. I think it is enough to say that it's peak was in 70's, with decline in 80's and reincarnation in 90's, and that the article says. It seems to be enough to me. -User:Marduk 18:29, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC) ----- I edited this section a lot - "Critics have often derided the genre as pompous and self-indulgent. This is because, unlike such stylistically consistent genres as country or hip hop, progressive rock is difficult to define in a single conclusive way." 1) I don't see how the reputation prog-rock has as pompous and self-indulgent has anything to do with it being "difficult to define stylistically", and I really fail to see how anyone could think there was a connection there. The largely negative reputations of albums like Brain Salad Surgery and Tales Of Topographic Oceans and whatnot doesn't have much to do with them being difficult to define stylistically, because they aren't. I agree that as musical genre categories go, prog rock is one of the hardest to define boundaries for, but prog rock has a reputation as being pompous and self-indulgent because a lot of is pompous and self-indulgent. Defining stylistic genre boundaries is neither here nor there. 2) country and hip hop are not particularly "stylistically consistent" anyway. like zappa, radiohead etc being "prog" or not as mentioned in the article, there are a lot of artists where if you wished you could have (and people do have) long debates about whether or not they were definitely "country artists" (Songs Ohia, Will Oldham, etc) or "hip hop artists" (Boards of Canada, DJ Shadow, Portishead, etc). I also changed "virtuosity" to the less loaded "skill", removed something about the intricate harmonies "requiring repeated listening to grasp" (which is arguable, and what does "grasp" mean in this context anyway?), and a couple other minor things. hope there are no problems. --User:Jamieli 18:47, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Duplicate wikilinks == It's worth mentioning that the WP:MOS dictates that wikilinks should only appear on the first instance of a term in an article (as well as in captions, etc). I've removed a lot of unnecessary links, but if you find any more it'd be a good idea to remove them. User:Plattopus (User_talk:Plattopus) 06:44, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC) == The most important feature of prog == In my opinion, #1 feature of progressive rock that differentiates it from other music genres is the harmony. Progressive harmony does not use traditional 5/7-tone scales, it rather uses the complete chromatic scale with no limitations. This is the key point. Music can not be treated as progressive if it is composed in major/minor/blues/rock/whatever-traditional key. I guess, this point would much purify and simplify the definition. :This is very hard to quantify. Like most musical genres, prog is predominantly diatonic. There is a greater degree of exploration into augmented and diminished scales than in most music, but this is also true of jazz and 20th century classical music. There is a greater degree of chromaticism in the chord progressions than in vanilla rock, but I can point you to medieval music of which this is also true. ::I would very much disagree. I don't think there are ''any'' prog bands who solely use a chromatic scale. At best, perhaps a third of prog bands use chromatic scales from time to time. I don't think any reasonable definition of "progressive rock" would exclude Yes and early Genesis; the former abandoned traditional harmony on the first half of side 3 of ''Tales'' and Genesis never did. :: ::The # 1 feature of prog bands might arguably be that they modulate a lot. Yes rarely stays in one key for a whole piece. But you can still divide their pieces into sections, and those sections are almost always major or minor Western keys. User:Lawrence King 11:01, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) == politics in progressive rock == I added the following line " Besides, as regards many early 1970's progressive rock bands (notably German ones) lyrics are very often concerned with politics (left-wing) and social issues." I see it's been removed, but yet I think it should be there, as the article in fact overlooks this very important aspect of progressive rock. Take such German prog bands as Eulenspygel, Floh de Cologne, Hanuman, Lied des Teufels, Coupla Prog, Electric Mud, Embryo, Hoelderlin, Necronomicon, Out of Focus, Profff. Wolf, or other European ones, such as Italian Jumbo, or famous English artists such as Henry Cow or Robert Wyatt. Many of the early 1970's German progressive rock bands were more or less directly related to the 1968 student movement. In fact, progressive rock was not just about dragons, fairy tales and princesses. I think one should not just focus on such maninstream bands as Yes or Genesis. Progressive rock was more than that. - Wolvin :Not in the eyes of 99% of the Earth's population. Of the bands you mentioned there, only Henry Cow is what I would call a "notable" band, so the political views of those other artists barely warrant mention on an article that also includes such mainstream heavyweights as Yes and Genesis. --User:Plattopus (User_talk:Plattopus) 17:40, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC) ''My personal opinion is that the political angle could be removed from the page. After all, even if some English prog bands were political, they were less explicitly political than their contemporaries in the folk scene, or even the psychedelic scene (Jefferson Airplane had more politics on one album than King Crimson and Yes had in their entire careers). Henry Cow was political but is hardly "mainstream" English prog.'' ''Was Europe different? I wouldn't call Magma political in any comprehensible sense, and when PFM became political their music went downhill. However, I don't know the German bands you mention. So I reworded the paragraph in question to show that English bands' politics, if expressed at all, was done through their fiction. (See Bill Martin's book for an excellent analysis of why this sort of political critique is more valuable than straightforward Dylanesque politics.)'' ''In fact, if I had to name the three most political English-speaking prog bands, they would probably be Henry Cow, Renaissance (band), and Rush (band). Guess what? These bands are Marxist, traditional English conservative, and Ayn Randist, respectively. Two out of three are on the "right"!'' ''I vote to remove the reference to politics. At most, we need a page on German Progressive Rock bands, and then we could refer to the fact that prog bands wer usually not explicitly political and say "except for German prog ". How does that sound? User:Lawrence King 08:48, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)'' Well I think that if 99 % of the Earth's population might not have heard of Eulenspygel or Jumbo et al., it would be justified to claim that 99 % of them have not heard of "progressive rock" at all. So should we scrap the whole entry altogether? Where's the dividing line between what is known enough to be mentioned in Wikipedia and the rest? Is it enough to say "I don't know so it's not known"? Because a band was not a success in the States does not mean its non-existence. It looks like anything that's not English-speaking is obscure and should not be at least mentioned. I think it should. The other thing is whether the issue of politics should be left out. Well, it's an important issue and deserves a mention in the context of lyrics. Where these lyrics politically-oriented or not? Were I a novice wanting to consult an encyclopedia I would certainly want to find the answer to this question. Why is it justified to say that lyrics were about religion then? I don't know many outstanding prog bands that were religion-oriented. If ELP's Tarkus is against war, isn't it political or regarding social issues? I think that I mention a phenomenon that "did" exist and should not be obscured. At least as a note - I did not elaborate on that, did I? I think that adding an article on German prog is a good idea and as soon as I have some time I'll try to start one. However, I believe that at least a small mention, in the present form, should be left in the main article. - Wolvin ''Okay, I'm fine with keeping the current version.'' ''I think Wikipedia articles sometimes end up with "a little of everything". The current article's list of "lyric themes" looks like a bunch of people tried to think of every topic that prog songs ever dealt with. So we have "science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, love, and madness". Why not add supermarkets ("Selling England") and whales, too?'' ''My opinion is that an article on a SUB-genre should focus on what makes the SUB-genre distinctive, so this article should focus on how prog rock differs from rock in general. And the fact is, that in the English-speaking world, the most distinctive thing about prog lyrics is they use a wider vocabulary and they much more often focus on fantasy, science fiction, and English romanticism. Songs about "war" and "love" are far more common in commercial rock than in prog! They certainly don't belong in this list. I agree with you that religion doesn't belong here -- I can think of one KC song, one ELP song, and a few very early Genesis songs that dealt with religion. And "madness"? I can think of two Pink Floyd albums; what else? (Sidepoint: I don't consider Floyd to be prog. They're psychedelic. People bought their albums because of the sound effects, not because of the key changes.)'' ''If someday we have separate articles on German prog, Italian prog, etc., we can revisit this question. By then this article will be long enough that it will need to be broken up anyway!'' ''Anyway, I'm ranting now, so I'll sign off. User:Lawrence King 09:30, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)'' == Italian Progressive == I noticed that there are no references at all to the great Italian branch of progressive rock. I am not versed in the matter, but am almost sure that no article about progressive could be considered complete without references to the great Italian bands. There isn't any reference to fussion either, there should be. Just remember that at the very origin of both fussion and progressive, it is not possible to draw a perfect distinction between both kinds of music. --User:Paiconos 18:04, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC) :I added a mention of the European prog scene, which is certainly very important both yesterday and today. If you visit Usenet you will see that modern prog fans in the UK and USA are often discovering the 1970's Italian and French bands! : :But the pages for PFM, Banco, and Le Orme are empty. Your turn! : User:Lawrence King 09:18, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Hold on a minute! == Who added all the Mars Volta crap? They're an obscure band that don't deserve to be the most-mentioned group in the article. :Perhaps not, but they definitely deserve a place somewhere... since they're currently the only progressive metal band who could be called "popular" in the mainstream. :: And who the hell switched Ween for Radiohead? ::: Glad I'm not the only one who noticed it. Remove? :::: I concur (if this is a democracy....) User:Lawrence King 19:11, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Why was the image changed? == Just wondering why the first image was changed from a Yes concert photo to a Tull album? -- User:PlattopusUser_talk:Plattopus 17:38, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC) : OK, it appears to be a JT fanboy making the changes (see his/her edit history, especially in the sandbox), so I'm going to revert it. -- User:PlattopusUser_talk:Plattopus 17:46, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC) Sorry about that image change... I'm new to Wikipedia, and was just experimenting around. -- User:Rantinghuman 16:24, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Why no Mike Oldfield? == I guess it already got debated, but... why no mention of Mike Oldfield? [http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_BAND.asp?band_id=839] -- User:6 18:53, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC) :If it already got debated it would be on this talk page... and it's not, so it probably hasn't. He deserves a mention somewhere, no doubt... probably just a case of noone actually taking the time to include him. User:PlattopusUser_talk:Plattopus 10:43, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC) == Too many bands listed as examples == Recently there have been a whole lot of extra bands listed as examples. I think this is inappropriate, because this article is not intended as a ''list'' of prog bands. It is intended as a description of progressive rock. For example, the following paragraph is absurd: * ''Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play. In the days of vinyl, these were usually two-record sets with strikingly designed gatefold sleeves. Famous examples include ''Journey to the Centre of the Earth'' by Rick Wakeman, ''The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway'' by Genesis, ''Tales from Topographic Oceans'' by Yes, ''2112'' and ''Hemispheres (1978 album)'' by Rush, ''Dark Side of the Moon'' and ''The Wall'' by Pink Floyd, and the more recent ''Operation: Mindcrime'' by Queensrÿche, ''Metropolis, Pt. 2: Scenes From a Memory'' by Dream Theater and ''Snow'' by Spock's Beard. The Mars Volta's albums "De-loused in the Comatorium" and "Frances the Mute" both follow storylines which are conveyed by both the music and the lyrics. ''Aqualung'', perhaps the best-known record by Jethro Tull (band), is often regarded as a concept album due to its recurring themes, but songwriter Ian Anderson has always claimed that the album is just "a bunch of songs".'' The point of this paragraph is that one feature that is common in prog is concept albums. This point is completely clear once the reader reads two examples. Why do we need 13 examples, including one that claims to not be an example after all? I don't have a proposed solution. If Wikipedia had formal editors they could prune this down, but if I did that folks would take it as an attack on their favorite bands. Any suggestions? User:Lawrence King 07:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) :Do what I did to the progressive metal article: remove all but the most important of examples, and create list of progressive rock artists. User:PlattopusUser_talk:Plattopus 08:48, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC) == Break this page up into multiple pages? == ...can someone please explain why in the section on progressive ''rock'' progressive metal groups are mentioned so much? In fact, to quote the article on progressive metal, "these bands are usually happy to be known as progressive, although the music bears very little resemblance to the original progressive rock form"... and yet it contradicts itself by mentioning the likes of Green Carnation and Dream Theater as examples of progressive rock bands that have made some long songs... Also, the mars volta I don't think could be considered post-rock by any means, in fact, again, the page on themself doesn't mention post-rock so I think the mention of them being should be removed? (80.3.96.40) : This page is sort of depressing to me, because every time we prune it, the stuff comes back. At least once a week someone feels it's necessary to add in their favorite bands. : In my opinion, the facts are these: From about 1969 until the late 1970's, everyone agrees what is meant by "progressive rock". After this, there is a great dispute. Therefore this page should separate these out. The fact is, that the heirs of progressive rock clearly include the 1990's prog revival (Spock's Beard), and prog-metal, and groups like the modern King Crimson. But these groups are nothing like each other. They are different branches from a single tree: different genres entirely. : Primus, for example, clearly are influenced by the 1980's Crimson. But if you say they are "influenced by progressive rock" that statement would be ambiguous. : So how should the article be structured? I think ideally there should be separate articles for each post-1980 genre, and then this article should focus on pre-1980 prog. After all, the ''entire reason that any post-1980 band has claimed the "prog" title is because of similarites to 1970's prog bands''. All of the "characteristics of prog" listed on this page were in 1970's prog (in varying quantities). In 1972 King Crimson radically changed their style and a new "characteristic" was added to prog; but Spock's Beard radically changed in 1998 they would have no longer been considered "progressive". ''In other words, the genre is fundamentally defined by the 1970's bands, even if you personally prefer other bands.'' : But I don't believe for a moment that I can persuade everyone that this is a good change..... User:Lawrence King 08:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) Me again (no usename), you have convinced me, obviously I am not objecting to the mentioning of progressive metal bands, but not in an article about progressive metal rather than progressive rock unless its in the context of music that has ''debateably'' been influenced by progressive rock. I just don't see the benefit to either progressive metal or progressive rock to have the former used wrongly in this article. To be honest simply deleting references to progressive metal bands would I think be sufficent and then a short piece at the end linking to other progressive styles. Waiting to see if anyone objects... ::Keep in mind that we should be using wikipedia:summary style. Just to throw something out there: what about having an article progressive music that explains all the different ways that term is used, with sub-articles with titles like progressive rock and progressive metal. The articles on individual genres should focus primarily in describing what the style ''is like'' (i.e. what makes ''progressive rock'' different from other kinds of ''rock'' and other kinds of ''progressive music'') and then a separate article on the history of progressive rock that could explain all the little permutations and varieties over the years. Of course, that's a lot of work, but that's what I think you oughtta work towards. User:TUF-KAT 20:44, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC) :::Oh, we already have progressive music. I thought it redirected to progressive rock. Still, there could be better interlinking and use of summary style among these progressive genre pages. I think it's clear that 80s and 90s progressive stuff is notable and should be covered in the appropriate article(s), so it should be made clear which article covers which topic. Plus, I think with an entire history of progressive rock article to play around with, there will be less pressure for this article to explain every last little variety of prog. User:TUF-KAT 20:48, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC) :That does sound like a good idea. And a lot of work. :Here are the main divisions that I see. Is this unreasonable? Some of these already have pages, but these would all have to be referenced within some sort of index page. Or maybe a template? : (1) Psychedelic music : (2a) 1970's prog rock, main current (Crimson, Yes, ELP, etc.) : (2b) 1970's prog rock, Canterbury bands (Camel, Caravan, etc.) : (2c) 1970's prog rock, avant-garde and astringent bands (Henry Cow, etc.) : (2d) 1970's prog rock, European bands -- or should these not be separated by nationality? : (3) prog / jazz fusion (Mahavishnu Orchestra, Dixie Dregs) : (4) prog pop (ELO, Alan Parsons, later Kansas, later Renaissance) : (5a) 1980's post-prog bands (80's Crimson, Peter Gabriel) : (5b) 1980's commercialization of prog (Genesis, Tull, Asia) -- is this the same as 4? : (5c) 1980's prog revival (Marillion, etc.) : (6) 1990's prog revival continued (Spock's Beard, etc.) -- is this in the same category as 5c? : (7) progressive metal : (8) modern bands that are arguably prog (Radiohead, etc.) : [I retitled the current section because hopefully it will attract more attention that way.] User:Lawrence King 00:29, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::I don't think we need all that many articles. My advice is to keep it as simple as possible for as long as possible -- terms that are widely used with a clear meaning, like Canterbury Scene, should have an article; stuff like "1980s post-prog" probably doesn't need one. In other words, give progressive rock a tight focus, moving the chaff to history of progressive rock, letting that article grow until it gets really long or a particular section begins to overwhelm things, then make, as needed, articles like history of progressive rock: 1980s post-prog (since I doubt there is a whole lot to say about 80s post-prog beyond history and a few identifying characteristics -- that's not really a discrete genre in the same sense as the Canterbury Scene, I think, so it should be laid out as a part of "history" and not as a discrete genre in itself). I think a template is a great idea, as it can help keep things orderly and make it clear which article is on which precise topic. ::I don't suggest making any new articles ''at this time'', except for a history of progressive rock, possibly along with e.g. French progressive rock (this is a potentially thorny issue, as the history of progressive rock must be neutral and not focus unduly on American and British stuff -- the hypothetical French progressive rock article is not a ghetto to avoid going into the subject on the main article; also note that there is a French rock article, and I am not sure if we need to make more of a distinction than that at this time, it might better to put all kinds of French rock in that article until it becomes unwieldy). I'm not sure if these rambling comments make much sense, but maybe some others will come along with other thoughts. User:TUF-KAT 01:11, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
Rock music genres
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Progressive rock
Progressive rock (shortened to prog, or prog rock when differentiating from other "progressive..." genres) is an ambitious, eclectic, and often grandiose style of Rock and roll which arose in the late 1960s, reached the peak of its popularity in the early 1970s, and continues as a musical form to this day. Progressive rock began in England and remained largely a European movement, although there are a few notable United States of America and Canada progressive rock bands. This music style draws many influences from classical music and jazz fusion, in contrast to American rock, which was more influenced by R&B and country music. Over the years various sub-genres of progressive rock have emerged, such as symphonic rock, art rock, math rock and progressive metal. Progressive rock artists sought to move away from the limitations of popular rock and pop music formats, and "progress" rock to the point that it could achieve new forms, often but not always alluding to the sophistication of jazz or classical music. It is ''complexity'', not the virtuosity of the musicians, which most distinguishes progressive rock: mainstream rock has some extremely talented musicians who work solely in simple meters and harmonies. Progressive rock is difficult to define in a single conclusive way, and outspoken King Crimson leader Robert Fripp has voiced his disdain for the term. The major acts that defined the genre in the 1970s (Jethro Tull (band), Yes (band), Genesis (band), Pink Floyd, Emerson Lake and Palmer, Rush_(band) and King Crimson) do not sound especially alike. There is also debate on whether the musical output of artists and bands as varied as Frank Zappa, Phish, and Radiohead belongs to the genre. ==Characteristics of progressive rock== Some common, though not universal, elements of progressive rock include: * Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies. These are often described as epics and are the genre's clearest nod to classical music. A very early example (perhaps the first multi-part suite to appear in prog rock) is "In Held Twas I" by Procol Harum, clocking in at 17:30. Other famous examples include Pink Floyd's 23-minute "Echoes", Jethro Tull (band)'s "Thick as a Brick" (43 minutes), Yes' "Close to the Edge" (18 minutes), Rick Wakeman's "Music Reincarnate" (28 minutes), Genesis' "Supper's Ready" (23 minutes), and Van der Graaf Generator's "A plague of Lighthouse Keepers" (20 minutes). More recent extreme examples are the 60-minute "Light of Day, Day of Darkness" by Green Carnation, "Garden of Dreams" by The Flower Kings and "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence" by Dream Theater. * Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives, covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, and Mental illness. Most of the English progressive rock bands avoided direct political commentary, preferring to couch their views in fictional or allegorical settings -- for example, Genesis' album ''Selling England by the Pound'' is tied together by a theme of commercialism versus naturalism, while Emerson, Lake and Palmer's ''Brain Salad Surgery'' gradually progresses from nature to technology to illustrate the dangers of man being replaced by machine. Other early 1970s progressive rock bands (especially German ones) featured lyrics concerned with left-wing politics and social issues. * Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play. In the days of vinyl, these were usually two-record sets with strikingly designed gatefold sleeves. Famous examples include ''Journey to the Centre of the Earth'' by Rick Wakeman, ''The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway'' by Genesis, ''Tales from Topographic Oceans'' by Yes, ''2112'' and ''Hemispheres (1978 album)'' by Rush, ''Dark Side of the Moon'' and ''The Wall'' by Pink Floyd, and the more recent ''Operation: Mindcrime'' by Queensrÿche, ''Metropolis, Pt. 2: Scenes From a Memory'' by Dream Theater and ''Snow'' by Spock's Beard. The Mars Volta's albums "De-loused in the Comatorium" and "Frances the Mute" both follow storylines which are conveyed by both the music and the lyrics. ''Aqualung'', perhaps the best-known record by Jethro Tull (band), is often regarded as a concept album due to its recurring themes, but songwriter Ian Anderson has always claimed that the album is just "a bunch of songs". * Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma (band), Robert Wyatt, Gentle Giant, Ian Anderson, Spock's Beard, and James LaBrie. * Prominent use of electronic instrument — particularly keyboard instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer, in addition to the usual rock combination of electric guitar, bass guitar and drums. More recently, many bands have experimented with wave manipulation and editing, as well as the methods mentioned above. * Use of unusual time signatures, musical scales, or musical tunings. Many pieces use multiple time signatures and/or tempo, sometimes concurrently. * Solo passages for virtually every instrument. This is the sort of thing that contributed to the fame of such performers as keyboardist Rick Wakeman and drummer Neil Peart. * A coordination between the rhythm section of the band, more specifically between the bassist and the drummer. The rhythm section often uses countertempos and other techniques that contrast what the rest of the band is doing in conjunction. Examples of this can be found in rhythm sections like those of Chris Squire and Bill Bruford of Yes, John Wetton and Bruford of King Crimson, Mike Rutherford and Phil Collins of Genesis, and others. * Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Emerson Lake and Palmer have performed arrangements of pieces by Aaron Copland, Béla Bartók, Modest Moussorgsky, Sergei Prokofiev, Leos Janacek, Alberto Ginastera, and often feature quotes from Johann Sebastian Bach in lead breaks. Jethro Tull (band) recorded a version of a Bourrée by Johann Sebastian Bach, in which they turned the piece into a "sleazy jazzy night-club song", according to Ian Anderson, Renaissance (band) and Muse frequently use Rakhmaninov-style piano interludes and Marillion opened their live album of the same name with an excerpt from Gioacchino Rossini's ''La Gazza Ladra'' (The Thieving Magpie). * An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by The Beatles with ''Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band'' and enthusiastically embraced during the prog heyday. Some bands became as well-known for the art direction of their albums as for their sound, with the "look" integrated into the band's overall musical identity. This led to fame for particular artists and design studios, most notably Roger Dean, whose paintings and logo design for Yes are so essential to the band's identity they could be said to serve the same function as corporate branding. Hipgnosis became equally famous for their unusual sleeves for Pink Floyd, often featuring experimental photography quite innovative for the time (two men shaking hands, one of whom is in flames, are featured on the re-release album cover of ''Wish You Were Here''). H.R. Giger's painting for Emerson Lake and Palmer's ''Brain Salad Surgery'' is one of the most famous album sleeves ever produced. Hugh Syme is another artist to become famous, mostly for his work on every Rush album cover since 1975's Fly By Night. *The use of sound effects in compositions. For example: the sound of a heartbeat at the beginning and end of Pink Floyd's ''Dark Side of the Moon''; sounds of warfare throughout Jethro Tull's single "Warchild". Progressive rock compositions sometimes take the following forms: * A piece that is subdivided into movements in the manner of a classical suite. Examples are the four-part "Tales from Topographic Oceans" by Yes, six-part "Hemispheres" by Rush, and the seven-part "A Change of Seasons" by Dream Theater. All of TransAtlantic's epics are multipart. In addition, The Mars Volta's "Frances the Mute" features three tracks, out of the five, which are broken down into movements. In a few cases, a progressive rock piece follows the outline of a specific classical form, such as the four-part sonata form used by Yes' "Close to the Edge". * A piece that is composed of a patchwork of musical themes that could conceivably stand as individual songs, but together serve to relate a complete narrative through music. Examples are "Supper's Ready" on Genesis' ''Foxtrot'' (the "Willow Farm" section of which was played as a single), "A Day in the Life" on ''Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band'' and the B-side of ''Abbey Road'' by The Beatles, Jethro Tull's ''Aqualung'' from the album of the same name, and "The Gates of Delirium" on Yes's album ''Relayer'' (from which the single "Soon" was taken). * A piece that allows the development of musical ideas via progressions or variations in the manner of a bolero or a canon. "King Kong" on Frank Zappa's ''Uncle Meat'' is an example. ==History of progressive rock== Progressive rock was born from a variety of musical influences in the late 1960s. The later Beatles and many psychedelic bands began to combine traditional rock music with instruments from classical and Eastern music. Psychedelic music continued this experimental trend and began to compose very long pieces, although usually without any carefully thought-out structure (for example, Iron Butterfly's "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida"). Bands such as The Nice and the Moody Blues began deliberately combining rock music with classical music, producing longer pieces with deliberate structures. These bands are sometimes considered "early progressive" and sometimes considered a transitional genre between psychedelic and progressive. Many music historians point to King Crimson as the first "true" progressive rock band; their first appearance was in February 1969. They were quickly followed by other English progressive rock bands, including Yes, Genesis (band), Emerson Lake and Palmer, Jethro Tull, and Pink Floyd. It is worth noting that Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, and Pink Floyd all began their careers ''before'' King Crimson, and all changed their musical styles considerably following the release of "In the Court of the Crimson King". Progressive rock also gained momentium when many rock fans grew disillusioned with the "Peace and Love" movement. The major characteristic of progressive music is when the progressive movement distanced itself from the "smiles and sunshine" of 1960's pop music and moved towards darker and sometimes more violent themes. For example, in 1970, when Genesis released ''Trespass'', they had a song called "The Knife," which spoke of violent revolution or their other song, "Stagnation" where a survivor of a nuclear attack tells his side of the story. Unlike psychedelic music, progressive rock also allowed for more music experimentation. For example, Jethro Tull released two albums where one song spanned the entire album: ''Thick As A Brick'' (1972) and ''A Passion Play'' (1973). Progressive rock was especially popular in continental Europe. Indeed, progressive rock was the first form of rock that actually captivated countries such as Italy and France. This era saw a great number of European progressive rock bands, most notably Premiata Forneria Marconi, Banco del Mutuo Soccorso, and Le Orme from Italy, and Ange and Magma (band) from France. Of these bands, only PFM was significantly successful in the English-speaking world. Fans and music historians have a variety of way to categorize the flavors of 1970's progressive rock. The Canterbury Scene can be considered a sub-genre of progressive rock, or simply another collection of true progressive rock bands. Other bands took the genre in a more commercial direction; these bands, including Renaissance (band) and Electric Light Orchestra are sometimes classified as "progressive rock", "commercial rock", or "symphonic pop". Progressive rock's popularity peaked in the mid-1970s, when prog artists regularly topped readers' votes in mainstream popular music magazines in England and America. By this time, several New World progressive rock bands had been formed, including Rush (from Canada), Kansas (band) (from Kansas, of course), and the Dixie Dregs (from Georgia (U.S. state)). With the advent of punk rock in the late 1970s, popular and critical opinion in England and America moved toward a simpler and more aggressive style of rock, with progressive rock increasingly dismissed as pretentious and overblown. This attitude has remained common to the present day, though it has begun to diminish since about 2004. The early 1980s saw something of a revival of the genre, led by artists such as Marillion, IQ, Saga, and Kate Bush. Groups that arose during this time are sometimes termed neo-progressive. Around the same time, some progressive rock stalwarts changed musical direction, simplifying their music and including more obviously electronic elements. In 1982, the much anticipated supergroup Asia, composed of Steve Howe (Yes), Carl Palmer (ELP), John Wetton (King Crimson), and Geoff Downes (Yes), surprised and disappointed with their pop oriented debut album. In 1983, Genesis achieved international success with the song "Mama", with its heavy emphasis on a drum machine riff. In 1984, Yes had a surprise number one hit with the song "Owner of a Lonely Heart", which contained contemporary electronic effects and was accessible enough to be played at discos, and more recently has been remixed into a Trance single. Many progressive rock fans were unhappy with the direction taken by such bands during this time. It should be noted that the term "progressive" in the early 1970's had been coined to emphasize the ''newness'' of these bands, but by the 1980's the term had become the name of a specific musical style. As a result, bands such as King Crimson which continued to update their sound were not always called "progressive", while some newer self-described "prog" bands purchased vintage mellotrons in order to recreate the sound of early 1970's prog. Fans and hostile critics alike had established "progressive rock" as the permanent name of this genre, and so the connection to the usual meaning of "progressive" became irrelevant. The progressive rock genre enjoyed another revival in the 1990s with the so-called "Third Wave", spearheaded by such bands as Sweden's The Flower Kings, the UK's Porcupine Tree, and Spock's Beard from the United States. One of the most important bands of the alternative rock movement, The Smashing Pumpkins, incorporated progressive rock into their unique, eclectic style, going so far as to release two albums dealing with the same concept. In recent years, the most commercially viable category of prog has been progressive metal. These bands are usually happy to be known as progressive, although the music bears very little resemblance to the original progressive rock form, and produce very long pieces and concept albums. Several of the leading bands in the prog-metal genre (particularly Dream Theater (United States) and Opeth (Sweden)) cite pioneer progressive hard-rockers Rush as a prime influence, although their music shows more influence from bands such as Yes or Metallica. Meanwhile, other heavy metal bands ''not'' generally considered prog-metal, such as System of a Down, have nevertheless incorporated prog-influenced elements like bizarre shifts in time signatures and tempo in their music. The work of contemporary artists such as Ween and post-rock bands like Sigur Rós and Godspeed You! Black Emperor and Muse could be said to incorporate some of the experimental elements of progressive rock, sometimes combined with the aesthetic sensibilities of punk rock to produce music which many find challenging, innovative and imaginative. A better example of a contemporary post-rock band however is probably The Mars Volta, who are notable for intentionally fusing punk with progressive rock, two elements once polar opposites. Among more experimental and avant garde musicians, the Japan composer Takashi Yoshimatsu publicly cites progressive rock bands as a prime influence on his work. There are also a number of contemporary prog bands, such as Mostly Autumn that combine Celtic, and sometimes pagan, influences with earlier prog rock styles. Other bands of note incorporating progressive rock into their sound, both signed and unsigned include Blood Brothers, Dog Bone Sanctuary, Dolour, Mastodon, Foo Fighters, Ruby Doe, Turn to Fall, Vendetta Red, Vindaloo. ==See also== * List of popular songs based on classical music * List of progressive rock musicians * The Canterbury Scene * Progressive metal * List of songs over fifteen minutes in length (not limited to prog rock) ==External links== * [http://www.proGGnosis.com/Main.asp ProGGnosis-Progressive Rock & Fusion] * [http://www.progreviews.com/ Ground and Sky progressive rock reviews] * [http://www.gnosis2000.net/ Gnosis - huge prog album database] * [http://www.gepr.net/ Gibraltar Encyclopedia of Progressive Rock] * [http://www.classicrocksociety.com/ The UK based Classic Rock Society] * [http://www.progressiveears.com/ ProgressiveEars online discussion forum] * [http://www.dprp.net/ Dutch Progressive Rock Page] * [http://www.cs.uu.nl/people/jur/progrock.html Axiom of Choice] * [http://www.newears.org/ New England Art Rock Society] * [http://manticornio.com/ Manticornio] (in Spanish) * [http://www.progarchives.com/ Prog Archives] * [http://musicmoz.org/Styles/Rock/Progressive/ MusicMoz Directory - Progressive Rock] * [http://home.online.no/~schoenen/ Tommy's Forest of Progressive Rock] * [http://www.somethingprog.com Somethingprog] * [http://www.babyblaue-seiten.de Babyblaue Seiten: Prog-Reviews] (in German) * [http://www.bajaprog.org/ BajaProg festival] * [http://www.rosfest.com/ Rites Of Spring festival] * [http://www.prog4you.com/ Prog4you.com] * [http://www.pprcmusic.com/ Philly Prog Rock Connection] * [http://melosprogbazaar.com Melo's Prog Bazaar - Progressive Rock Forum] * [http://www.musearecords.com/ Musea Records] Non-profit record label, dedicated to the promotion of Progressive Rock. * [http://www.agarthaprog.com/ Agarthaprog] Italian site dedicated to progressive rock * [http://www.ghostland.com/ Ghostland] * [http://www.coloradoprog.com/ Colorado Art Rock Society] ==Further reading== * Lucky, Jerry. ''The Progressive Rock Files'' Burlington, Ontario: Collector's Guide Publishing, Inc (1998), 304 pages, ISBN 1896522106 (paperback). Gives an overview of progressive rock's history as well as histories of the major and underground bands in the genre. * Macan, Edward. ''Rocking the Classics: English Progressive Rock and the Counterculture.'' Oxford: Oxford University Press (1997), 290 pages, ISBN 00195098870 (hardcover), ISBN 00195098889 (paperback). Analyzes progressive rock using classical musicology and also sociology. * Martin, Bill. ''Listening to the Future: The Time of Progressive Rock.'' Peru, Ill.: Carus Publishing Company (1998), 356 pages, ISBN 081269368X (paperback). An enthusiastic analysis of progressive rock, intermixed with the author's Marxism political views. Progressive rock Rock music genres
Progressive rock
==Miscellaneous rewrites == I realize everyone has their own pet bands they want to talk about, but I had to add a line about the band Asia. I remember prog fans' huge anticipation of this mixing of King Crimson, Yes, and ELP, and having to listen to the album over and over because I simply could not believe my ears. Due to its visibility and stunning reorientation, Asia alone could represent the early 80's turnaround. :Fair enough... but the fact that you wrote "suprised and disappointed" is POV writing... what, ''no one'' in the world was not disappointed by it? User:PlattopusUser_talk:Plattopus 16:01, May 6, 2005 (UTC) : I knew, but it's a tough one. I assume there are subtle pov philosophy debates on wikipedia, so maybe someone will edit my words in a way that will capture in a few words a reasonable representation of who thought Asia was going to be what, and what they considered Asia to be once the group appeared. After all, even "much anticipated" is still pov, and I assume everyone acknowledges you're always caught within pov. ---- Hi, I wonder if it wouldn't be more wise to mention first what prog rock IS and only than mention elements that are common to prog rock but not necessery. If there are no objections, I'm going to change the phrasing a bit. -User:Marduk 18:16, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC) ---- I removed the last paragraph from the article because he was too problematic in my view: "Today, progressive rock continues to be created and admired by a solid core of enthusiasts, but seems to be paid little attention by the mainstream music press and receives virtually no radio airplay. The genre can no longer convincingly claim to be progressing rock music at the rate it once did, and those innovations that are being made are usually ignored or derided by the commercial world at large, and by progressive rock enthusiasts themselves." 1. 'Today' is not encyclopedic. 2. "The genre can no longer convincingly claim to be progressing rock music at the rate it once did" - progressing rock? come on, that sounds awful. 3. I think it is enough to say that it's peak was in 70's, with decline in 80's and reincarnation in 90's, and that the article says. It seems to be enough to me. -User:Marduk 18:29, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC) ----- I edited this section a lot - "Critics have often derided the genre as pompous and self-indulgent. This is because, unlike such stylistically consistent genres as country or hip hop, progressive rock is difficult to define in a single conclusive way." 1) I don't see how the reputation prog-rock has as pompous and self-indulgent has anything to do with it being "difficult to define stylistically", and I really fail to see how anyone could think there was a connection there. The largely negative reputations of albums like Brain Salad Surgery and Tales Of Topographic Oceans and whatnot doesn't have much to do with them being difficult to define stylistically, because they aren't. I agree that as musical genre categories go, prog rock is one of the hardest to define boundaries for, but prog rock has a reputation as being pompous and self-indulgent because a lot of is pompous and self-indulgent. Defining stylistic genre boundaries is neither here nor there. 2) country and hip hop are not particularly "stylistically consistent" anyway. like zappa, radiohead etc being "prog" or not as mentioned in the article, there are a lot of artists where if you wished you could have (and people do have) long debates about whether or not they were definitely "country artists" (Songs Ohia, Will Oldham, etc) or "hip hop artists" (Boards of Canada, DJ Shadow, Portishead, etc). I also changed "virtuosity" to the less loaded "skill", removed something about the intricate harmonies "requiring repeated listening to grasp" (which is arguable, and what does "grasp" mean in this context anyway?), and a couple other minor things. hope there are no problems. --User:Jamieli 18:47, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Duplicate wikilinks == It's worth mentioning that the WP:MOS dictates that wikilinks should only appear on the first instance of a term in an article (as well as in captions, etc). I've removed a lot of unnecessary links, but if you find any more it'd be a good idea to remove them. User:Plattopus (User_talk:Plattopus) 06:44, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC) == The most important feature of prog == In my opinion, #1 feature of progressive rock that differentiates it from other music genres is the harmony. Progressive harmony does not use traditional 5/7-tone scales, it rather uses the complete chromatic scale with no limitations. This is the key point. Music can not be treated as progressive if it is composed in major/minor/blues/rock/whatever-traditional key. I guess, this point would much purify and simplify the definition. :This is very hard to quantify. Like most musical genres, prog is predominantly diatonic. There is a greater degree of exploration into augmented and diminished scales than in most music, but this is also true of jazz and 20th century classical music. There is a greater degree of chromaticism in the chord progressions than in vanilla rock, but I can point you to medieval music of which this is also true. ::I would very much disagree. I don't think there are ''any'' prog bands who solely use a chromatic scale. At best, perhaps a third of prog bands use chromatic scales from time to time. I don't think any reasonable definition of "progressive rock" would exclude Yes and early Genesis; the former abandoned traditional harmony on the first half of side 3 of ''Tales'' and Genesis never did. :: ::The # 1 feature of prog bands might arguably be that they modulate a lot. Yes rarely stays in one key for a whole piece. But you can still divide their pieces into sections, and those sections are almost always major or minor Western keys. User:Lawrence King 11:01, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) == politics in progressive rock == I added the following line " Besides, as regards many early 1970's progressive rock bands (notably German ones) lyrics are very often concerned with politics (left-wing) and social issues." I see it's been removed, but yet I think it should be there, as the article in fact overlooks this very important aspect of progressive rock. Take such German prog bands as Eulenspygel, Floh de Cologne, Hanuman, Lied des Teufels, Coupla Prog, Electric Mud, Embryo, Hoelderlin, Necronomicon, Out of Focus, Profff. Wolf, or other European ones, such as Italian Jumbo, or famous English artists such as Henry Cow or Robert Wyatt. Many of the early 1970's German progressive rock bands were more or less directly related to the 1968 student movement. In fact, progressive rock was not just about dragons, fairy tales and princesses. I think one should not just focus on such maninstream bands as Yes or Genesis. Progressive rock was more than that. - Wolvin :Not in the eyes of 99% of the Earth's population. Of the bands you mentioned there, only Henry Cow is what I would call a "notable" band, so the political views of those other artists barely warrant mention on an article that also includes such mainstream heavyweights as Yes and Genesis. --User:Plattopus (User_talk:Plattopus) 17:40, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC) ''My personal opinion is that the political angle could be removed from the page. After all, even if some English prog bands were political, they were less explicitly political than their contemporaries in the folk scene, or even the psychedelic scene (Jefferson Airplane had more politics on one album than King Crimson and Yes had in their entire careers). Henry Cow was political but is hardly "mainstream" English prog.'' ''Was Europe different? I wouldn't call Magma political in any comprehensible sense, and when PFM became political their music went downhill. However, I don't know the German bands you mention. So I reworded the paragraph in question to show that English bands' politics, if expressed at all, was done through their fiction. (See Bill Martin's book for an excellent analysis of why this sort of political critique is more valuable than straightforward Dylanesque politics.)'' ''In fact, if I had to name the three most political English-speaking prog bands, they would probably be Henry Cow, Renaissance (band), and Rush (band). Guess what? These bands are Marxist, traditional English conservative, and Ayn Randist, respectively. Two out of three are on the "right"!'' ''I vote to remove the reference to politics. At most, we need a page on German Progressive Rock bands, and then we could refer to the fact that prog bands wer usually not explicitly political and say "except for German prog ". How does that sound? User:Lawrence King 08:48, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)'' Well I think that if 99 % of the Earth's population might not have heard of Eulenspygel or Jumbo et al., it would be justified to claim that 99 % of them have not heard of "progressive rock" at all. So should we scrap the whole entry altogether? Where's the dividing line between what is known enough to be mentioned in Wikipedia and the rest? Is it enough to say "I don't know so it's not known"? Because a band was not a success in the States does not mean its non-existence. It looks like anything that's not English-speaking is obscure and should not be at least mentioned. I think it should. The other thing is whether the issue of politics should be left out. Well, it's an important issue and deserves a mention in the context of lyrics. Where these lyrics politically-oriented or not? Were I a novice wanting to consult an encyclopedia I would certainly want to find the answer to this question. Why is it justified to say that lyrics were about religion then? I don't know many outstanding prog bands that were religion-oriented. If ELP's Tarkus is against war, isn't it political or regarding social issues? I think that I mention a phenomenon that "did" exist and should not be obscured. At least as a note - I did not elaborate on that, did I? I think that adding an article on German prog is a good idea and as soon as I have some time I'll try to start one. However, I believe that at least a small mention, in the present form, should be left in the main article. - Wolvin ''Okay, I'm fine with keeping the current version.'' ''I think Wikipedia articles sometimes end up with "a little of everything". The current article's list of "lyric themes" looks like a bunch of people tried to think of every topic that prog songs ever dealt with. So we have "science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, love, and madness". Why not add supermarkets ("Selling England") and whales, too?'' ''My opinion is that an article on a SUB-genre should focus on what makes the SUB-genre distinctive, so this article should focus on how prog rock differs from rock in general. And the fact is, that in the English-speaking world, the most distinctive thing about prog lyrics is they use a wider vocabulary and they much more often focus on fantasy, science fiction, and English romanticism. Songs about "war" and "love" are far more common in commercial rock than in prog! They certainly don't belong in this list. I agree with you that religion doesn't belong here -- I can think of one KC song, one ELP song, and a few very early Genesis songs that dealt with religion. And "madness"? I can think of two Pink Floyd albums; what else? (Sidepoint: I don't consider Floyd to be prog. They're psychedelic. People bought their albums because of the sound effects, not because of the key changes.)'' ''If someday we have separate articles on German prog, Italian prog, etc., we can revisit this question. By then this article will be long enough that it will need to be broken up anyway!'' ''Anyway, I'm ranting now, so I'll sign off. User:Lawrence King 09:30, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)'' == Italian Progressive == I noticed that there are no references at all to the great Italian branch of progressive rock. I am not versed in the matter, but am almost sure that no article about progressive could be considered complete without references to the great Italian bands. There isn't any reference to fussion either, there should be. Just remember that at the very origin of both fussion and progressive, it is not possible to draw a perfect distinction between both kinds of music. --User:Paiconos 18:04, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC) :I added a mention of the European prog scene, which is certainly very important both yesterday and today. If you visit Usenet you will see that modern prog fans in the UK and USA are often discovering the 1970's Italian and French bands! : :But the pages for PFM, Banco, and Le Orme are empty. Your turn! : User:Lawrence King 09:18, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Hold on a minute! == Who added all the Mars Volta crap? They're an obscure band that don't deserve to be the most-mentioned group in the article. :Perhaps not, but they definitely deserve a place somewhere... since they're currently the only progressive metal band who could be called "popular" in the mainstream. :: And who the hell switched Ween for Radiohead? ::: Glad I'm not the only one who noticed it. Remove? :::: I concur (if this is a democracy....) User:Lawrence King 19:11, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Why was the image changed? == Just wondering why the first image was changed from a Yes concert photo to a Tull album? -- User:PlattopusUser_talk:Plattopus 17:38, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC) : OK, it appears to be a JT fanboy making the changes (see his/her edit history, especially in the sandbox), so I'm going to revert it. -- User:PlattopusUser_talk:Plattopus 17:46, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC) Sorry about that image change... I'm new to Wikipedia, and was just experimenting around. -- User:Rantinghuman 16:24, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Why no Mike Oldfield? == I guess it already got debated, but... why no mention of Mike Oldfield? [http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_BAND.asp?band_id=839] -- User:6 18:53, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC) :If it already got debated it would be on this talk page... and it's not, so it probably hasn't. He deserves a mention somewhere, no doubt... probably just a case of noone actually taking the time to include him. User:PlattopusUser_talk:Plattopus 10:43, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC) == Too many bands listed as examples == Recently there have been a whole lot of extra bands listed as examples. I think this is inappropriate, because this article is not intended as a ''list'' of prog bands. It is intended as a description of progressive rock. For example, the following paragraph is absurd: * ''Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play. In the days of vinyl, these were usually two-record sets with strikingly designed gatefold sleeves. Famous examples include ''Journey to the Centre of the Earth'' by Rick Wakeman, ''The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway'' by Genesis, ''Tales from Topographic Oceans'' by Yes, ''2112'' and ''Hemispheres (1978 album)'' by Rush, ''Dark Side of the Moon'' and ''The Wall'' by Pink Floyd, and the more recent ''Operation: Mindcrime'' by Queensrÿche, ''Metropolis, Pt. 2: Scenes From a Memory'' by Dream Theater and ''Snow'' by Spock's Beard. The Mars Volta's albums "De-loused in the Comatorium" and "Frances the Mute" both follow storylines which are conveyed by both the music and the lyrics. ''Aqualung'', perhaps the best-known record by Jethro Tull (band), is often regarded as a concept album due to its recurring themes, but songwriter Ian Anderson has always claimed that the album is just "a bunch of songs".'' The point of this paragraph is that one feature that is common in prog is concept albums. This point is completely clear once the reader reads two examples. Why do we need 13 examples, including one that claims to not be an example after all? I don't have a proposed solution. If Wikipedia had formal editors they could prune this down, but if I did that folks would take it as an attack on their favorite bands. Any suggestions? User:Lawrence King 07:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) :Do what I did to the progressive metal article: remove all but the most important of examples, and create list of progressive rock artists. User:PlattopusUser_talk:Plattopus 08:48, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC) == Break this page up into multiple pages? == ...can someone please explain why in the section on progressive ''rock'' progressive metal groups are mentioned so much? In fact, to quote the article on progressive metal, "these bands are usually happy to be known as progressive, although the music bears very little resemblance to the original progressive rock form"... and yet it contradicts itself by mentioning the likes of Green Carnation and Dream Theater as examples of progressive rock bands that have made some long songs... Also, the mars volta I don't think could be considered post-rock by any means, in fact, again, the page on themself doesn't mention post-rock so I think the mention of them being should be removed? (80.3.96.40) : This page is sort of depressing to me, because every time we prune it, the stuff comes back. At least once a week someone feels it's necessary to add in their favorite bands. : In my opinion, the facts are these: From about 1969 until the late 1970's, everyone agrees what is meant by "progressive rock". After this, there is a great dispute. Therefore this page should separate these out. The fact is, that the heirs of progressive rock clearly include the 1990's prog revival (Spock's Beard), and prog-metal, and groups like the modern King Crimson. But these groups are nothing like each other. They are different branches from a single tree: different genres entirely. : Primus, for example, clearly are influenced by the 1980's Crimson. But if you say they are "influenced by progressive rock" that statement would be ambiguous. : So how should the article be structured? I think ideally there should be separate articles for each post-1980 genre, and then this article should focus on pre-1980 prog. After all, the ''entire reason that any post-1980 band has claimed the "prog" title is because of similarites to 1970's prog bands''. All of the "characteristics of prog" listed on this page were in 1970's prog (in varying quantities). In 1972 King Crimson radically changed their style and a new "characteristic" was added to prog; but Spock's Beard radically changed in 1998 they would have no longer been considered "progressive". ''In other words, the genre is fundamentally defined by the 1970's bands, even if you personally prefer other bands.'' : But I don't believe for a moment that I can persuade everyone that this is a good change..... User:Lawrence King 08:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) Me again (no usename), you have convinced me, obviously I am not objecting to the mentioning of progressive metal bands, but not in an article about progressive metal rather than progressive rock unless its in the context of music that has ''debateably'' been influenced by progressive rock. I just don't see the benefit to either progressive metal or progressive rock to have the former used wrongly in this article. To be honest simply deleting references to progressive metal bands would I think be sufficent and then a short piece at the end linking to other progressive styles. Waiting to see if anyone objects... ::Keep in mind that we should be using wikipedia:summary style. Just to throw something out there: what about having an article progressive music that explains all the different ways that term is used, with sub-articles with titles like progressive rock and progressive metal. The articles on individual genres should focus primarily in describing what the style ''is like'' (i.e. what makes ''progressive rock'' different from other kinds of ''rock'' and other kinds of ''progressive music'') and then a separate article on the history of progressive rock that could explain all the little permutations and varieties over the years. Of course, that's a lot of work, but that's what I think you oughtta work towards. User:TUF-KAT 20:44, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC) :::Oh, we already have progressive music. I thought it redirected to progressive rock. Still, there could be better interlinking and use of summary style among these progressive genre pages. I think it's clear that 80s and 90s progressive stuff is notable and should be covered in the appropriate article(s), so it should be made clear which article covers which topic. Plus, I think with an entire history of progressive rock article to play around with, there will be less pressure for this article to explain every last little variety of prog. User:TUF-KAT 20:48, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC) :That does sound like a good idea. And a lot of work. :Here are the main divisions that I see. Is this unreasonable? Some of these already have pages, but these would all have to be referenced within some sort of index page. Or maybe a template? : (1) Psychedelic music : (2a) 1970's prog rock, main current (Crimson, Yes, ELP, etc.) : (2b) 1970's prog rock, Canterbury bands (Camel, Caravan, etc.) : (2c) 1970's prog rock, avant-garde and astringent bands (Henry Cow, etc.) : (2d) 1970's prog rock, European bands -- or should these not be separated by nationality? : (3) prog / jazz fusion (Mahavishnu Orchestra, Dixie Dregs) : (4) prog pop (ELO, Alan Parsons, later Kansas, later Renaissance) : (5a) 1980's post-prog bands (80's Crimson, Peter Gabriel) : (5b) 1980's commercialization of prog (Genesis, Tull, Asia) -- is this the same as 4? : (5c) 1980's prog revival (Marillion, etc.) : (6) 1990's prog revival continued (Spock's Beard, etc.) -- is this in the same category as 5c? : (7) progressive metal : (8) modern bands that are arguably prog (Radiohead, etc.) : [I retitled the current section because hopefully it will attract more attention that way.] User:Lawrence King 00:29, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::I don't think we need all that many articles. My advice is to keep it as simple as possible for as long as possible -- terms that are widely used with a clear meaning, like Canterbury Scene, should have an article; stuff like "1980s post-prog" probably doesn't need one. In other words, give progressive rock a tight focus, moving the chaff to history of progressive rock, letting that article grow until it gets really long or a particular section begins to overwhelm things, then make, as needed, articles like history of progressive rock: 1980s post-prog (since I doubt there is a whole lot to say about 80s post-prog beyond history and a few identifying characteristics -- that's not really a discrete genre in the same sense as the Canterbury Scene, I think, so it should be laid out as a part of "history" and not as a discrete genre in itself). I think a template is a great idea, as it can help keep things orderly and make it clear which article is on which precise topic. ::I don't suggest making any new articles ''at this time'', except for a history of progressive rock, possibly along with e.g. French progressive rock (this is a potentially thorny issue, as the history of progressive rock must be neutral and not focus unduly on American and British stuff -- the hypothetical French progressive rock article is not a ghetto to avoid going into the subject on the main article; also note that there is a French rock article, and I am not sure if we need to make more of a distinction than that at this time, it might better to put all kinds of French rock in that article until it becomes unwieldy). I'm not sure if these rambling comments make much sense, but maybe some others will come along with other thoughts. User:TUF-KAT 01:11, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
Progressive rock
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