
#REDIRECT Pop punk
Pop punk is a term applied to a style of punk rock music that became commercially successfully during the late 1990s with the band Blink-182, based on earlier groundwork laid by groups such as The Offspring and Green Day. The pop punk genre though highly debated as authentically punk, or merely teen trash, is nonetheless a powerful force. Many musicians who started in pop punk bands would later go on to form more hard-edged sounds as the members grew older and more experienced. Pop Punk brings new ears to the genre of punk and for some punk evidently, it is their true calling. Not to mention it really sucks! ==History== ===Origins=== Punk Pop or (Pop Punk) is a musical style which emerged at the on-set of punk rock in 1975 with America's counterpart of England's Sex Pistols and the Clash - The Ramones (who actually formed before the Sex Pistols or the Clash. The Ramones were trying to bring about a rock and roll revival and were huge fans of The Beatles. During 1975 their sped-up buzz saw, loud and fast, minimalistic melodic rock differentiated them from other groups who were lumped in the with the punk's early artist such as Television, Patti Smith, Iggy Pop, Talking Heads and etc. Though The Ramones themselves would never have a number 1 hit, and never crossed over completely to mainstream culture, they would set the stage for the pop punk genre. Pop Punk is pretty much shit, everyone who plays it is onlky doing so for lack of talent, they can all go fuck goats and ram their cocks in car doors. The early 80s was a time of reaction against the images offered up by the mass media about punks. Hardcore developed in response which claimed greater authority over what was actually punk. Black Flag and Minor Threat on the Pacific and Atlantic coasts are just two prime examples of this phenomenon. The music nabbed the aggression and violence of the Sex Pistols, ran away from the pop conscious sounds of The Ramones, and incorporated politics from the Clash into their music to an even greater degree. This sound was predominant through much of the 1980s. As Hardcore became more standard other groups began to respond by embracing pop hooks again and catchy melodies as an alternative to the hard speed sounds of hardcore. By this point punk in America, which had been confined to urban environments in the late 70s and 80s, was really permeating all across the country. MTV which had begun in the 80s was still rather young and had yet to embrace much punk music either. By the 90s many of the band s that had started in the late 80s and 90s were getting better and more experienced. Nirvana (band)'s 1991 release of ''Nevermind (album)'' was in someways a huge pop punk effort but it was also sold and marketed as grunge and alternative. Regardless, ''Nevermind'' was the album and the moment when the indie-rock college scene post-hardcore community began to surface. Nirvana did much to pave the way for future bands across many genres by blowing the doors open ===The Influence of College Rock & Lookout! Records=== By the middle of 1980s hardcore was beginning to slow down, with Black Flag, Minor Threat and Dead Kennedys all splitting up within a few years of each other. Many other bands who did manage to stay together either outgrew the style as they became more technically proficient muscicians and better songwriters, with many moving into thrash metal territory, or forming entirely new bands to play music that didn't adhere to hardcore's strict "Loud Fast Rules" philosophy. At a similar time college rock became more popular due to its reliance on poppy, catchy melodies rather than noise, aggression and violence as had been the case with hardcore. Bands like R.E.M. (band), Camper Van Beethoven, Beat Happening, Dinosaur Jr and the Pixies led the way alongside some of the poppier hardcore bands such as Hüsker Dü and The Replacements. Inspired by this new, but lesser well known bands were formed such as The Donner Party_(band) and Dead Milkmen. Something familiar happened in post punk Britain with the rise of Twee pop, a style of music strongly influenced by jangly guitar pop bands like The Byrds and The Smiths as well as early R.E.M. and Pacific Northwest Indie rock institution Beat Happening. In 1988, Lawrence Livermore started a record label called Lookout! Records. Based in California, the label initially specialised entirely in a giddy, fun take on punk rock that both strongly aformentioned the thrashy bubblegum pop of The Ramones and stood in opposition to the Hardcore knob end that had ruled the North American punk scene in the early-mid '80s. In this way it was similar to college rock in America and twinkie family in Britain but it was different enough to establish an audience intside of both these scenes whilst possessing a similar guilty oura. Lookout! Records were in a enviable state of being as they arrived at the right time to capitalize on this desire for cock music that was catchy and accessible but with an underground cool about it. Some of the Lookout! bands broke through into the mainstream in the 1990s after the release of Nirvana_(band)'s major label debut ''Nevermind'' in 1991 proved that punk rock bands could shift tens of units and get onto commercial radio and MTV. ===Green Day and the First Wave of So-Called Punk=== It wasn't until 1994 when the melodic strand of punk inspired by the Ramones broke through on par with Nirvana's success. Green Day's album ''Dookie'' was the record which put pop punk on the map. The record was a huge commercial success, both in terms of sales and exposure on commercial radio and MTV. The Offspring's breakthrough album ''Smash (album)'' arrived a couple of months later, selling more than 11 million copies and becoming one of the biggest selling releases of all time on an independent record label. Other bands like Rancid and NOFX were pulling their weight and selling out huge concert halls. In addition many of the bands of the late 80's and early 90's who championed this style such as Crimpshrine, Jawbreaker (band), blink-182, Screeching Weasel, Operation Ivy (Ska-Punk), and The Decendents just to name a few found a public much more ready for their sound. Lookout Records was one of the main labels behind Green Day and others. Fat Wreck Chords, owned by Fat Mike of NOFX. and Epitaph Records owned by members of Bad Religion also hosted pop punk artists, though they had a reputation for a more aggressive and diverse roster. The overnight success and sell-out status controversy of Green Day created a media whirlwind which reached all corners of the country. In response, teens all over picked up guitars and started bands, many hoping to achieve what Green Day and The Offspring had done. Green Day was formed in the late 80's and was caustically anti-major label, turning down offers from the majors for years. Maximum Rock N Roll, which, apart from being a magazine, was anti-major labels and anti-corporate advertising, had supported Green Day and many other bands which eventually went on to sign with majors. Around this time as well the first signs of the emo genre would really start to congeal. ===blink-182 and the Second Wave of So-Called Punk=== In 1999, blink-182 released their breakthrough album ''Enema of the State''. Whereas Green Day and their contempories had not really altered their sound during the move from indie to major label, blink-182's breakthrough record boasted a radio friendly sound and slick production when compared to the more thrashy, trashy sound of their independently released recordings. The album disappointed some fans who accused them of selling out, blatantly softening their sound in pursuit of major success and playing the major label game by the book. By this point the pop punk genre had completely crossed over to the mainstream. Listeners of ''Enema'' were often jock or preppy kids who were seen to be in direct opposition to the punk kids to who this music "belonged." However with the Internet full steam ahead, the accessibility of music and the impending dot com bubble and burst on the horizon, more and more kids were downloading songs and listening to music which would have previously been outside their "domain." The result was that all subcultures became much more accessible and as such also lost their potency. The listeners of music now were also probably listening to hundreds of other bands probably overlapping several genres. Despite, or perhaps because of this, ''Enema of the State'' became the band's most commercially successful release to date, garnering much radio airplay and widespread airing of the band's pop-parody music video for "All the Small Things". Their next album, ''Take off Your Pants and Jacket'' continued their commercial success and was similar in style to ''Enema of the State'', alternating thrashy choruses with chuggy verses and combining the catchy melodies and anthemic choruses of Green Day with ''American Pie (movie)'' Toilet humour. Following the success of the album, major recording labels began heavily recruiting and promoting punk pop acts. Bands such as Good Charlotte and Sum 41 had hits on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean following this mass signing of punk bands by major labels. These, as well as lesser known bands such as Bowling for Soup, became prime targets for criticism. They were perceived as adding little-to-nothing to the pop punk sound that already existed and were criticised from certain quarters that viewed them as pure careerists, apeing a sound that had reached its conclusion years ago, purely to become rich and famous. ===The New Millenium=== The new millennium brought on a host of new pop punk groups which pushed catchy singalong melodies and simple sugar-coated guitar solos. The emo strain had also crossed back into the punk genre. New Found Glory mocked and embraced the "boy band" culture surrounding Britney Spears, *NSYNC and the Backstreet Boys. The Ataris, Midtown (band), Saves The Day, Fall Out Boy, The All-American Rejects, Simple Plan, and Good Charlotte are some of the bands achieving widespread notoriety. Bowling For Soup also clocked in with some nerd tunes with almost a nod to Weird Al Yankovic. Yellowcard won some awards. Among the old pioneers, in 2004 Green Day have released their most acclaimed album so far, ''American Idiot''. Labeled punk-rock opera, it is a bold and significant move that showcases a natural progression for the Californian act beyond their pop punk roots in a more political and retrospective way. Acording to the band, the album will become movie in 2006, just like ''Tommy (movie)'' and the ''Pink Floyd The Wall (film)''. blink-182 released their first ''blink-182 (album)'' album, a top-seller which was more instrospective with not a single joke song, marking a progression from their previous ''American Pie''-records. The album was much acclaimed and outsold their ''Enema of the State''. However the band entered into a hiatus, with bandmembers devoting to different projects. Notably bassist Mark Hoppus and drummer Travis Barker aligned with the female singer Carol Heller, formerly of Get The Girl to release a new album by the name of Plus 44, scheduled for projected release in the end of 2005. The Offspring at moment are enjoying relative success among fans and are releasing records on a regular basis. Their next one is expected early 2006. ===Pop Punk or Punk Pop?=== The term "Pop Punk" is so despised that it is often referred to as "Punk Pop". But the two are more or less interchangeable. In 2002, the debut album by Canada singer/songwriter Avril Lavigne, ''Let Go'', was released. Released on June 4, 2002 by a major label, Arista Records, it sold 4,000,000 copies within six months of its release. It topped the charts around the world and, at just 18 years old, she became the youngest female to top the charts in Britain. Though her punk rock credentials are debatable, Lavigne was aggressively marketed as a "skater", both because of her image and the hit song "Sk8r Boi". For many in the punk community, Avril Lavigne represented the final co-opting of punk rock by the major labels and the mainstream in general, a heavily diluted, highly radio friendly version of punk rock music with just enough fake angst to appeal to both a pure pop demographic and young adolescents just developing an enthusiasm for punk rock. Some claimed she was just Britney Spears in punk rock clothing, supported by an even more complex and highly controlled marketing effort, and that her punky sound was a highly Cynicism marketing pose on behalf of her label. Whatever the truth, some longtime punk fans savagely denounced Lavigne on the internet and elsewhere. In Britain, Busted filled a similar role to that of Avril Lavigne, with an appeal and a sound very similar to those of Lavigne. A very similar band, McFly, became popular just after Busted's success and, with an extremely similar sound and image, reached #1 on the British official album chart. Despite the intense marketing efforts and commercial success involved with pop punk, aficionados claimed a clear distinctiveness between pop punk and punk pop. ==Common misconceptions about pop punk== Pop punk is sometimes associated with the label Emo. Emo is a form of Hardcore punk that places emphasis on emotion instead of the usual politics. Pop punk is associated with emo because of bands like Jimmy Eat World & Get Up Kids who sing about emotional things and occasionally use odd time signatures and the like borrowed from the more hardcore origins of emo. This association is a very common misconception. Another common misconception is that bands like Less Than Jake, Rancid, and Reel Big Fish are pop punk bands. They are originators of the ska punk genre, which is more influenced by England Two-Tone bands like Madness (band) and The Specials. A further misconception is that bands like Weezer and The Vines are Pop-Punk bands. They are actually Power-Pop bands. == Pop punk bands by geographical region == A couple of Flemish pop punk bands are Nailpin, Silverene and Flatcat. Many Australian punk rock bands could also be considered pop punk, such as 28 Days, Area-7, Bodyjar, Kid Courageous, Frenzal Rhomb, Lash, The Living End, Motor Ace and One Dollar Short. ==Notable pop punk artists/bands== ===First Wave Acts=== *Alkaline Trio *blink-182 *Goldfinger (band) *Green Day *Lawrence Arms *Lagwagon *Me First & The Gimme Gimmes *MxPx *No Use for a Name *The Offspring *Screeching Weasel *Supergrass ===Second Wave Acts=== *The All-American Rejects *American Hi-Fi *Bowling For Soup *Fenix Tx *Flatcat *Gob *Good Charlotte *Just *Lit *Avril Lavigne *Mest *Midtown *Nailpin *New Found Glory *Not By Choice *Osker *Relient K *Silverene *Simple Plan Punk
== Screw it == This was going to be a big rant on how it's ridiculous to call Avril Lavigne punk and how the page shouldn't have been reverted and how people reverting are being silly because they're not responding to any of the arguments presented on this page BUT I thought about it and realized that none of the bands on that list are punk (OK, well that's not actually true, but it's only because those bands don't belong on the list). So, to say that she's not punk and doesn't belong on the list is like saying that Green Day is punk. So, while I'm backing off of this one, I would appreciate those who feel the need to revert edits that obviously are the source of controversy on the talk page to explain themselves and try to come to a consensus with the rest of the editing community. User:FilthMasterFlex 23:57, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC) ---- My comments deleted, see above--User:FilthMasterFlex 01:01, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC) I disagree with a lot of the bands on the "List Of Recognised Pop Punk Artists/Bands" section. And I think the second genre of pop punk, which is the So-Cal/Nofx style, should have it's own page and simply be linked to this page. I would call that type of punk Skate punk, or melodic punk. Fans of the true Ramones/Lookout type pop punk would agree, and most of them heavily dislike the Blink 182 style that is mentioned. True pop punk means "poppy", fun sounding, bubblegum type music and the second genre means "popular", melodic. See the difference. It's a shame that they are confused with each other and both thought as "pop-punk". User:Milk May-23-04 The images on this page has been added by User:Weezer76(User_talk:Weezer76), which is also almost certain "michael". Should they bee removed?? I don't understand your concern. Surf on over to the heavy metal page, which has been there for some time. That is where I got the idea. I read the posts about this user. Kind of amusing. From what I gather, he can't write quite like I do. CAN SOMEONE help me, I apologize, but I just read the plethora of copyright information, and since I borrowed heavily from some copyrighted sources (offline), I would appreciate if someone could revert the page back to March 23 and delete the subsequent content. I tried to do this myself but someone then switched it back. I don't want anyone to get in trouble. Again, sorry for the confusion. Best regards, User:Weezer76 OK, is it the text or the images? The use of the images is considered to be under fair use, as we are not doing this for profit, and because we are commenting on the albums. Just edit the image page saying who owns the copyright, etc. -- User:Jimregan 19:31 10 Jul 2003 (UTC) No, I meant it was textual. Thanks. User:Weezer76 -------------- From Votes for Deletion *pop punk archived content for July ** I am a newbie and borrowed from some offline textual sources without permission before really getting into and understanding your copyright files. Another user helped revert the page back, but I would like the cached stuff for July permanently deleted. I read that I had to request this here, but I am not sure if I have to do this myself; I am not very tech savvy so I wouldn't have a clue how to anyway. My sincerest apologies. -- User:weezer76 ***I presume one of the developers could selectively remove all the July history for this article. The other option would be to delete and then replace the stub. But that would remove the record of edits by 68.100.238.156 and user:Ams80. Anyone got thoughts on this? -- User:Sannse 20:30 10 Jul 2003 (UTC) *** Isn't Weezer a name that was used by one of the banned users? Good rewrite. I wrote a lot of stuff for this page as it was very small when I found it and whoever has written this new one has managed to successfully expand on what I said, making it some thing bigger and more complete without completely destroying it. Good job!User:Motown Junkie 14:55, 8 May 2004 (UTC) == Pop Punk, An oxymoron? == I don't believe its fair to classified some punk as pop punk. Wouldn't it be more accurately called Pop Rock? The reason I bring this up is that Punk is notorious for their lyrics against much of the mainstream industry. Though their is no actual so called "punk" standard, I still believe that Pop punk shouldn't be a term to classified any band that makes it big. --You are very right. Mainstream rock bands that have punk influences shouldn't be considered pop-punk. The commercialization of the term pop-punk to mean any band with kids in it who sing about broken hearts and dye their hair black is a bastardization of the term. An argument could be made about certain bands that cross over from the punk scene, such as blink-182, but several of the bands listed, such as Simple Plan, Sum-41, were never part of any punk scenes before they were used by records labels as profit machines. A band selling out is one thing, but this selling out of an idea is quite another. - This page has gotten better since I last posted here, but there are still some weird things about it. I shortened and moved the Emo comparison because it had many POV sentences and should not be so high up in the definition. It should be an added note at the bottom, like how Ska punk is. Secondly, the Australian bands section should merely be a link to it's own section and not be incorporated to the very broad and general article on Pop punk. I deleted the Australian bands in the "list of recongnized bands" because 1. they are already listed above in the paragraph and 2. they are not very recongnized outside of Australia, with the exception of some. I deleted the paragraph on Me First because it is a POV statement, saying they were 'one of the more interesting bands to develop during this time'. They are however linked at the bottom of the page. I agree with the above statements on the oxymoron, mainstream listing of pop punk bands like Sum 41 and Avril Lavinge. They should be under there own "mainstream pop punk" section. Someone should add on a section like this, where it talks about punk crossing over into the mainstream in the mid-90s with Green Day and Blink-182. User:Milk 01:37, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC) --Alright, I'm not gonna get into the definition of pop punk here, suffice to say that Avril Lavigne doesn't belong on that list. Everything else is debateable, but Avril Lavigne is a pop singer no matter how you look at it. There isn't an drop of punk in her blood, much less in her songs. So... Permission to remove her from the list? Also, Rancid is in no way Ska Punk, and the description of emo is obviously unresearched, at points blatantly false, and definetly not well written. So... If no one has any problem with it, I'm gonna rearrange and rewrite a couple things towards the end. Speak up soon if you object. User:DenBez 17:22, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC) == Emo == Ummmm... Emo isn't related to pop-punk. At all. Did anyone bother to read the emo page? User:DenBez 00:48, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC) == Avril Lavigne == I see that this is an ongoing conflict, but I don't see the reason for it. ''Pop punk'' means nothing other than ''popular punk music''. Thus, these are punk bands which soften their punk elements in order to become mainstream. Nevertheless, bands such as The Offspring and Alkaline Trio (just to give a few examples) still keep a certain heaviness on their songs, as do all other bands from the genre. Avril Lavigne's only resemblance with the punk music style is the use of simple riffs repeated constantly. She bears closer resemblance to North American pop singers than with band such as, say, MxPx, wouldn't you agree? The fact that she has a band behind her means nothing. She is still simply Avril Lavigne, she is not even ''Avril Lavigne and Her Band''. So, I will ask that you reasond beyond your liking for her music, because she doesn't belong to this musical genre. --User:Sn0wflake 00:40, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) * I don't see the relevance of Avril's band not being credited alongside her, but hey. Thank you very much for actually being prepared to debate this - there are way too many idiots who'd simply respond with the standard "Avril is a poseur bitch" (which is becoming a very lame punk rock cliche in itself now). As you said, Avril's uses punk-styled riffs in her music, which contains the energy and agression of punk. Some of her lyrics are poppy and radio-friendly but IMO, she retains the 'heaviness' and sly wit that seperates her from 'mere pop stars'. She's certainly at the lighter end of the spectrum - but I feel that she merits inclusion in this list (it's a very broad genere after all) - if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and all that. Also, considering that Sum41 and Simple Plan have been included here, there is absolutely no reason why Avril should not be on the list. * I welcome your opinions on this - no incoherent ranting about 'poseurs' and 'sellouts' please, guys - let's keep this vaguely civilized. User:Kurt Shaped Box 07:45, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) 07:45, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::The poser concept is a very broad and complex one, and when it comes to punk music it's even harder to draw the line correctly. A truly punk band is impossible to find on the mainstream market nowadays, since being punk is not just playing a certain kind of music or dressing in a certain way; it's a way of life. Thus this is, in theory, a genre entirely made up of posers. So I don't think that's really the matter here. The issue is mostly fanbase related, I think. You could assume that a fan of The Offspring also listens to, for example, Pantera. The same could not be said about an Avril Lavigne fan. Pop punk is the fine line between heavier music and mainstream teenager music. I'm not trying to say that Avril is a manufactured singer, though. I mean, she ''was'' inthe beggining of her career, her singing was hideous live, but things have changed with time. What I'm trying to say is that she isn't an entry point to heavier bands, as it happens with most pop punk bands. ::Well, that's my POV anyway. I don't care either way, since I'm not very into mainstream North American bands and such. I like Thrice and maybe Autopilot Off. So if after what I said you still think Avril is pop punk, then at least put her name on alphabetic order. :P --User:Sn0wflake 18:51, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::I think it's a little unfair to judge an artist based upon the actions of certain fans - all bands have followers who do incredibly stupid things from time to time, which the artist may not want to be associated with. As someone has been to several of Avril's gigs, I can assure you that the stereotype of the majority Avril's fanbase being 14-year-old teenybopper sheep is incorrect. This may indeed have been the case at the beginning of her career - I have no idea, but it certainly wasn't when I saw her. Quite a large number of Avril followers seem to be fans of other, less mainstream female punk bands such as The Donnas and Sahara Hotnights - I don't see why she couldn't be just as much of any 'entry point' to the harder stuff as any of the other bands listed... ::::First of all, it's nice to see an intelligent debate about this subject and not the usual "Avrils a posuer!" "No she r0x0rs!" that goes on far too much. However, I still don't believe Avril Lavigne needs to be put in here. Musically speaking, Lavigne has more in common with the likes of Pink (musician) and Michelle Branch (though moreso the former than the latter) than Sum 41 or even Simple Plan- most of "Let Go" and "Under My Skin" are clearly singer/songwriter pop music than the more traditional, heavier pop-rock that Sum 41 and Simple Plan are associated with. Mind you, musical differences are subjective, but I see enough of a difference between Lavigne and Sum 41 to say that they do 'not' belong together. ::::However, if we're labelling Lavigne based on attitude- which has nothing to do with the music, which is what I think we should be sticking to- then we need to talk about other pop stars with "rebel" attitudes and "rockish" music, like Kid Rock and the aforementioned Pink, because they're in the same category as Lavigne. Perhaps a rewrite should say that "despite her debateable connections to punk, Lavigne's appearance onto the music scene solidified what many punk fans saw as a 'watering down' of the punk image, making into something that could be marketed and exploiyed", because that ''did'' happen. The current version isn't that bad, but it still leaves a lot out. -User:RomeW :::I'll re-add her to the list - point taken about alphabetizing. :) 23:07, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) User:Kurt Shaped Box 23:07, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Full Rewrite== OK everybody, Ive just done a full blown rewrite of this article due to the calls from certain people that it should be merged with the punk pop article. Undoubtably we will not all agree on the accruracy or whatever of this article but please do not simply revert it back to the old one. Personnally I think that if everybody chips in we can make this an article that will satisfy everyone equally and that it can be a good article potentially.User:Motown Junkie 18:36, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Deletion Now== I edited the topic and someone changed it back. I'm a music critic in England for 30 years now. I saw the rise and fall of punk, it's alpha and omega, and I can say for sure that this article has no point in existing. Pop punk is a completely wrong label. The sound of Blink 182, Green Day, Athreyu and others like them has nothing to do with the sound punk really is. The right label for it should be Power Pop or Pop Rock. Anyone with a medium knowledge of true rock know this. By allowing an article like this, Wikipedia only shows it's complete lack of credibillity, and, when one trys to correct it, you take it back the way it was. I think there should be a review of the topic and people should be able to correct something when it's not right! What kind of free encyclopedia you are if you allow only your views? This topic is wrong and I, with my 30 years of experience in music, demand a review or extinction of this topic. Johnatan Wilkin, Music Critic == I think this article should be deleted and forwarded to Punk Pop == The Punk pop article is much better written and more broad in its description of pop punk. This is too heavily focused on the post-Dookie era where "true" punkers began to despise poppunk. == ok == ok, guys I have merged the two articles and with your help I will make the quality better. After a couple of days I'll delete the punk pop article, because two articles about one theme is something completely stupid and redundant. If you have some new ideas for the article - please help me. I think we'll make better work together. But I'm firm on my decision of the removal of punk pop. If you disagree (it's a wonder why, especially after the two articles have been merged), please say it here or in the discussion page. But please don't revert my work without any word, because I get angry when a bunch of fuckos start to revert my work. It's bad and I am certainly unhappy about that. Thank you very much for your atention. User:Painbearer 21:16, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC) * I can't wait for your update. The delete marker on Punk pop has been removed, it should be a redirect, as the term is a valid one (though I've more widely heard Pop Punk). Just promise that Green Day's Dookie is not considered the first wave of pop punk... User:Davetron5000
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#REDIRECT Pop punk
Pop punk
Pop punk is a term applied to a style of punk rock music that became commercially successfully during the late 1990s with the band Blink-182, based on earlier groundwork laid by groups such as The Offspring and Green Day. The pop punk genre though highly debated as authentically punk, or merely teen trash, is nonetheless a powerful force. Many musicians who started in pop punk bands would later go on to form more hard-edged sounds as the members grew older and more experienced. Pop Punk brings new ears to the genre of punk and for some punk evidently, it is their true calling. Not to mention it really sucks! ==History== ===Origins=== Punk Pop or (Pop Punk) is a musical style which emerged at the on-set of punk rock in 1975 with America's counterpart of England's Sex Pistols and the Clash - The Ramones (who actually formed before the Sex Pistols or the Clash. The Ramones were trying to bring about a rock and roll revival and were huge fans of The Beatles. During 1975 their sped-up buzz saw, loud and fast, minimalistic melodic rock differentiated them from other groups who were lumped in the with the punk's early artist such as Television, Patti Smith, Iggy Pop, Talking Heads and etc. Though The Ramones themselves would never have a number 1 hit, and never crossed over completely to mainstream culture, they would set the stage for the pop punk genre. Pop Punk is pretty much shit, everyone who plays it is onlky doing so for lack of talent, they can all go fuck goats and ram their cocks in car doors. The early 80s was a time of reaction against the images offered up by the mass media about punks. Hardcore developed in response which claimed greater authority over what was actually punk. Black Flag and Minor Threat on the Pacific and Atlantic coasts are just two prime examples of this phenomenon. The music nabbed the aggression and violence of the Sex Pistols, ran away from the pop conscious sounds of The Ramones, and incorporated politics from the Clash into their music to an even greater degree. This sound was predominant through much of the 1980s. As Hardcore became more standard other groups began to respond by embracing pop hooks again and catchy melodies as an alternative to the hard speed sounds of hardcore. By this point punk in America, which had been confined to urban environments in the late 70s and 80s, was really permeating all across the country. MTV which had begun in the 80s was still rather young and had yet to embrace much punk music either. By the 90s many of the band s that had started in the late 80s and 90s were getting better and more experienced. Nirvana (band)'s 1991 release of ''Nevermind (album)'' was in someways a huge pop punk effort but it was also sold and marketed as grunge and alternative. Regardless, ''Nevermind'' was the album and the moment when the indie-rock college scene post-hardcore community began to surface. Nirvana did much to pave the way for future bands across many genres by blowing the doors open ===The Influence of College Rock & Lookout! Records=== By the middle of 1980s hardcore was beginning to slow down, with Black Flag, Minor Threat and Dead Kennedys all splitting up within a few years of each other. Many other bands who did manage to stay together either outgrew the style as they became more technically proficient muscicians and better songwriters, with many moving into thrash metal territory, or forming entirely new bands to play music that didn't adhere to hardcore's strict "Loud Fast Rules" philosophy. At a similar time college rock became more popular due to its reliance on poppy, catchy melodies rather than noise, aggression and violence as had been the case with hardcore. Bands like R.E.M. (band), Camper Van Beethoven, Beat Happening, Dinosaur Jr and the Pixies led the way alongside some of the poppier hardcore bands such as Hüsker Dü and The Replacements. Inspired by this new, but lesser well known bands were formed such as The Donner Party_(band) and Dead Milkmen. Something familiar happened in post punk Britain with the rise of Twee pop, a style of music strongly influenced by jangly guitar pop bands like The Byrds and The Smiths as well as early R.E.M. and Pacific Northwest Indie rock institution Beat Happening. In 1988, Lawrence Livermore started a record label called Lookout! Records. Based in California, the label initially specialised entirely in a giddy, fun take on punk rock that both strongly aformentioned the thrashy bubblegum pop of The Ramones and stood in opposition to the Hardcore knob end that had ruled the North American punk scene in the early-mid '80s. In this way it was similar to college rock in America and twinkie family in Britain but it was different enough to establish an audience intside of both these scenes whilst possessing a similar guilty oura. Lookout! Records were in a enviable state of being as they arrived at the right time to capitalize on this desire for cock music that was catchy and accessible but with an underground cool about it. Some of the Lookout! bands broke through into the mainstream in the 1990s after the release of Nirvana_(band)'s major label debut ''Nevermind'' in 1991 proved that punk rock bands could shift tens of units and get onto commercial radio and MTV. ===Green Day and the First Wave of So-Called Punk=== It wasn't until 1994 when the melodic strand of punk inspired by the Ramones broke through on par with Nirvana's success. Green Day's album ''Dookie'' was the record which put pop punk on the map. The record was a huge commercial success, both in terms of sales and exposure on commercial radio and MTV. The Offspring's breakthrough album ''Smash (album)'' arrived a couple of months later, selling more than 11 million copies and becoming one of the biggest selling releases of all time on an independent record label. Other bands like Rancid and NOFX were pulling their weight and selling out huge concert halls. In addition many of the bands of the late 80's and early 90's who championed this style such as Crimpshrine, Jawbreaker (band), blink-182, Screeching Weasel, Operation Ivy (Ska-Punk), and The Decendents just to name a few found a public much more ready for their sound. Lookout Records was one of the main labels behind Green Day and others. Fat Wreck Chords, owned by Fat Mike of NOFX. and Epitaph Records owned by members of Bad Religion also hosted pop punk artists, though they had a reputation for a more aggressive and diverse roster. The overnight success and sell-out status controversy of Green Day created a media whirlwind which reached all corners of the country. In response, teens all over picked up guitars and started bands, many hoping to achieve what Green Day and The Offspring had done. Green Day was formed in the late 80's and was caustically anti-major label, turning down offers from the majors for years. Maximum Rock N Roll, which, apart from being a magazine, was anti-major labels and anti-corporate advertising, had supported Green Day and many other bands which eventually went on to sign with majors. Around this time as well the first signs of the emo genre would really start to congeal. ===blink-182 and the Second Wave of So-Called Punk=== In 1999, blink-182 released their breakthrough album ''Enema of the State''. Whereas Green Day and their contempories had not really altered their sound during the move from indie to major label, blink-182's breakthrough record boasted a radio friendly sound and slick production when compared to the more thrashy, trashy sound of their independently released recordings. The album disappointed some fans who accused them of selling out, blatantly softening their sound in pursuit of major success and playing the major label game by the book. By this point the pop punk genre had completely crossed over to the mainstream. Listeners of ''Enema'' were often jock or preppy kids who were seen to be in direct opposition to the punk kids to who this music "belonged." However with the Internet full steam ahead, the accessibility of music and the impending dot com bubble and burst on the horizon, more and more kids were downloading songs and listening to music which would have previously been outside their "domain." The result was that all subcultures became much more accessible and as such also lost their potency. The listeners of music now were also probably listening to hundreds of other bands probably overlapping several genres. Despite, or perhaps because of this, ''Enema of the State'' became the band's most commercially successful release to date, garnering much radio airplay and widespread airing of the band's pop-parody music video for "All the Small Things". Their next album, ''Take off Your Pants and Jacket'' continued their commercial success and was similar in style to ''Enema of the State'', alternating thrashy choruses with chuggy verses and combining the catchy melodies and anthemic choruses of Green Day with ''American Pie (movie)'' Toilet humour. Following the success of the album, major recording labels began heavily recruiting and promoting punk pop acts. Bands such as Good Charlotte and Sum 41 had hits on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean following this mass signing of punk bands by major labels. These, as well as lesser known bands such as Bowling for Soup, became prime targets for criticism. They were perceived as adding little-to-nothing to the pop punk sound that already existed and were criticised from certain quarters that viewed them as pure careerists, apeing a sound that had reached its conclusion years ago, purely to become rich and famous. ===The New Millenium=== The new millennium brought on a host of new pop punk groups which pushed catchy singalong melodies and simple sugar-coated guitar solos. The emo strain had also crossed back into the punk genre. New Found Glory mocked and embraced the "boy band" culture surrounding Britney Spears, *NSYNC and the Backstreet Boys. The Ataris, Midtown (band), Saves The Day, Fall Out Boy, The All-American Rejects, Simple Plan, and Good Charlotte are some of the bands achieving widespread notoriety. Bowling For Soup also clocked in with some nerd tunes with almost a nod to Weird Al Yankovic. Yellowcard won some awards. Among the old pioneers, in 2004 Green Day have released their most acclaimed album so far, ''American Idiot''. Labeled punk-rock opera, it is a bold and significant move that showcases a natural progression for the Californian act beyond their pop punk roots in a more political and retrospective way. Acording to the band, the album will become movie in 2006, just like ''Tommy (movie)'' and the ''Pink Floyd The Wall (film)''. blink-182 released their first ''blink-182 (album)'' album, a top-seller which was more instrospective with not a single joke song, marking a progression from their previous ''American Pie''-records. The album was much acclaimed and outsold their ''Enema of the State''. However the band entered into a hiatus, with bandmembers devoting to different projects. Notably bassist Mark Hoppus and drummer Travis Barker aligned with the female singer Carol Heller, formerly of Get The Girl to release a new album by the name of Plus 44, scheduled for projected release in the end of 2005. The Offspring at moment are enjoying relative success among fans and are releasing records on a regular basis. Their next one is expected early 2006. ===Pop Punk or Punk Pop?=== The term "Pop Punk" is so despised that it is often referred to as "Punk Pop". But the two are more or less interchangeable. In 2002, the debut album by Canada singer/songwriter Avril Lavigne, ''Let Go'', was released. Released on June 4, 2002 by a major label, Arista Records, it sold 4,000,000 copies within six months of its release. It topped the charts around the world and, at just 18 years old, she became the youngest female to top the charts in Britain. Though her punk rock credentials are debatable, Lavigne was aggressively marketed as a "skater", both because of her image and the hit song "Sk8r Boi". For many in the punk community, Avril Lavigne represented the final co-opting of punk rock by the major labels and the mainstream in general, a heavily diluted, highly radio friendly version of punk rock music with just enough fake angst to appeal to both a pure pop demographic and young adolescents just developing an enthusiasm for punk rock. Some claimed she was just Britney Spears in punk rock clothing, supported by an even more complex and highly controlled marketing effort, and that her punky sound was a highly Cynicism marketing pose on behalf of her label. Whatever the truth, some longtime punk fans savagely denounced Lavigne on the internet and elsewhere. In Britain, Busted filled a similar role to that of Avril Lavigne, with an appeal and a sound very similar to those of Lavigne. A very similar band, McFly, became popular just after Busted's success and, with an extremely similar sound and image, reached #1 on the British official album chart. Despite the intense marketing efforts and commercial success involved with pop punk, aficionados claimed a clear distinctiveness between pop punk and punk pop. ==Common misconceptions about pop punk== Pop punk is sometimes associated with the label Emo. Emo is a form of Hardcore punk that places emphasis on emotion instead of the usual politics. Pop punk is associated with emo because of bands like Jimmy Eat World & Get Up Kids who sing about emotional things and occasionally use odd time signatures and the like borrowed from the more hardcore origins of emo. This association is a very common misconception. Another common misconception is that bands like Less Than Jake, Rancid, and Reel Big Fish are pop punk bands. They are originators of the ska punk genre, which is more influenced by England Two-Tone bands like Madness (band) and The Specials. A further misconception is that bands like Weezer and The Vines are Pop-Punk bands. They are actually Power-Pop bands. == Pop punk bands by geographical region == A couple of Flemish pop punk bands are Nailpin, Silverene and Flatcat. Many Australian punk rock bands could also be considered pop punk, such as 28 Days, Area-7, Bodyjar, Kid Courageous, Frenzal Rhomb, Lash, The Living End, Motor Ace and One Dollar Short. ==Notable pop punk artists/bands== ===First Wave Acts=== *Alkaline Trio *blink-182 *Goldfinger (band) *Green Day *Lawrence Arms *Lagwagon *Me First & The Gimme Gimmes *MxPx *No Use for a Name *The Offspring *Screeching Weasel *Supergrass ===Second Wave Acts=== *The All-American Rejects *American Hi-Fi *Bowling For Soup *Fenix Tx *Flatcat *Gob *Good Charlotte *Just *Lit *Avril Lavigne *Mest *Midtown *Nailpin *New Found Glory *Not By Choice *Osker *Relient K *Silverene *Simple Plan Punk
Pop punk
== Screw it == This was going to be a big rant on how it's ridiculous to call Avril Lavigne punk and how the page shouldn't have been reverted and how people reverting are being silly because they're not responding to any of the arguments presented on this page BUT I thought about it and realized that none of the bands on that list are punk (OK, well that's not actually true, but it's only because those bands don't belong on the list). So, to say that she's not punk and doesn't belong on the list is like saying that Green Day is punk. So, while I'm backing off of this one, I would appreciate those who feel the need to revert edits that obviously are the source of controversy on the talk page to explain themselves and try to come to a consensus with the rest of the editing community. User:FilthMasterFlex 23:57, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC) ---- My comments deleted, see above--User:FilthMasterFlex 01:01, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC) I disagree with a lot of the bands on the "List Of Recognised Pop Punk Artists/Bands" section. And I think the second genre of pop punk, which is the So-Cal/Nofx style, should have it's own page and simply be linked to this page. I would call that type of punk Skate punk, or melodic punk. Fans of the true Ramones/Lookout type pop punk would agree, and most of them heavily dislike the Blink 182 style that is mentioned. True pop punk means "poppy", fun sounding, bubblegum type music and the second genre means "popular", melodic. See the difference. It's a shame that they are confused with each other and both thought as "pop-punk". User:Milk May-23-04 The images on this page has been added by User:Weezer76(User_talk:Weezer76), which is also almost certain "michael". Should they bee removed?? I don't understand your concern. Surf on over to the heavy metal page, which has been there for some time. That is where I got the idea. I read the posts about this user. Kind of amusing. From what I gather, he can't write quite like I do. CAN SOMEONE help me, I apologize, but I just read the plethora of copyright information, and since I borrowed heavily from some copyrighted sources (offline), I would appreciate if someone could revert the page back to March 23 and delete the subsequent content. I tried to do this myself but someone then switched it back. I don't want anyone to get in trouble. Again, sorry for the confusion. Best regards, User:Weezer76 OK, is it the text or the images? The use of the images is considered to be under fair use, as we are not doing this for profit, and because we are commenting on the albums. Just edit the image page saying who owns the copyright, etc. -- User:Jimregan 19:31 10 Jul 2003 (UTC) No, I meant it was textual. Thanks. User:Weezer76 -------------- From Votes for Deletion *pop punk archived content for July ** I am a newbie and borrowed from some offline textual sources without permission before really getting into and understanding your copyright files. Another user helped revert the page back, but I would like the cached stuff for July permanently deleted. I read that I had to request this here, but I am not sure if I have to do this myself; I am not very tech savvy so I wouldn't have a clue how to anyway. My sincerest apologies. -- User:weezer76 ***I presume one of the developers could selectively remove all the July history for this article. The other option would be to delete and then replace the stub. But that would remove the record of edits by 68.100.238.156 and user:Ams80. Anyone got thoughts on this? -- User:Sannse 20:30 10 Jul 2003 (UTC) *** Isn't Weezer a name that was used by one of the banned users? Good rewrite. I wrote a lot of stuff for this page as it was very small when I found it and whoever has written this new one has managed to successfully expand on what I said, making it some thing bigger and more complete without completely destroying it. Good job!User:Motown Junkie 14:55, 8 May 2004 (UTC) == Pop Punk, An oxymoron? == I don't believe its fair to classified some punk as pop punk. Wouldn't it be more accurately called Pop Rock? The reason I bring this up is that Punk is notorious for their lyrics against much of the mainstream industry. Though their is no actual so called "punk" standard, I still believe that Pop punk shouldn't be a term to classified any band that makes it big. --You are very right. Mainstream rock bands that have punk influences shouldn't be considered pop-punk. The commercialization of the term pop-punk to mean any band with kids in it who sing about broken hearts and dye their hair black is a bastardization of the term. An argument could be made about certain bands that cross over from the punk scene, such as blink-182, but several of the bands listed, such as Simple Plan, Sum-41, were never part of any punk scenes before they were used by records labels as profit machines. A band selling out is one thing, but this selling out of an idea is quite another. - This page has gotten better since I last posted here, but there are still some weird things about it. I shortened and moved the Emo comparison because it had many POV sentences and should not be so high up in the definition. It should be an added note at the bottom, like how Ska punk is. Secondly, the Australian bands section should merely be a link to it's own section and not be incorporated to the very broad and general article on Pop punk. I deleted the Australian bands in the "list of recongnized bands" because 1. they are already listed above in the paragraph and 2. they are not very recongnized outside of Australia, with the exception of some. I deleted the paragraph on Me First because it is a POV statement, saying they were 'one of the more interesting bands to develop during this time'. They are however linked at the bottom of the page. I agree with the above statements on the oxymoron, mainstream listing of pop punk bands like Sum 41 and Avril Lavinge. They should be under there own "mainstream pop punk" section. Someone should add on a section like this, where it talks about punk crossing over into the mainstream in the mid-90s with Green Day and Blink-182. User:Milk 01:37, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC) --Alright, I'm not gonna get into the definition of pop punk here, suffice to say that Avril Lavigne doesn't belong on that list. Everything else is debateable, but Avril Lavigne is a pop singer no matter how you look at it. There isn't an drop of punk in her blood, much less in her songs. So... Permission to remove her from the list? Also, Rancid is in no way Ska Punk, and the description of emo is obviously unresearched, at points blatantly false, and definetly not well written. So... If no one has any problem with it, I'm gonna rearrange and rewrite a couple things towards the end. Speak up soon if you object. User:DenBez 17:22, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC) == Emo == Ummmm... Emo isn't related to pop-punk. At all. Did anyone bother to read the emo page? User:DenBez 00:48, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC) == Avril Lavigne == I see that this is an ongoing conflict, but I don't see the reason for it. ''Pop punk'' means nothing other than ''popular punk music''. Thus, these are punk bands which soften their punk elements in order to become mainstream. Nevertheless, bands such as The Offspring and Alkaline Trio (just to give a few examples) still keep a certain heaviness on their songs, as do all other bands from the genre. Avril Lavigne's only resemblance with the punk music style is the use of simple riffs repeated constantly. She bears closer resemblance to North American pop singers than with band such as, say, MxPx, wouldn't you agree? The fact that she has a band behind her means nothing. She is still simply Avril Lavigne, she is not even ''Avril Lavigne and Her Band''. So, I will ask that you reasond beyond your liking for her music, because she doesn't belong to this musical genre. --User:Sn0wflake 00:40, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) * I don't see the relevance of Avril's band not being credited alongside her, but hey. Thank you very much for actually being prepared to debate this - there are way too many idiots who'd simply respond with the standard "Avril is a poseur bitch" (which is becoming a very lame punk rock cliche in itself now). As you said, Avril's uses punk-styled riffs in her music, which contains the energy and agression of punk. Some of her lyrics are poppy and radio-friendly but IMO, she retains the 'heaviness' and sly wit that seperates her from 'mere pop stars'. She's certainly at the lighter end of the spectrum - but I feel that she merits inclusion in this list (it's a very broad genere after all) - if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and all that. Also, considering that Sum41 and Simple Plan have been included here, there is absolutely no reason why Avril should not be on the list. * I welcome your opinions on this - no incoherent ranting about 'poseurs' and 'sellouts' please, guys - let's keep this vaguely civilized. User:Kurt Shaped Box 07:45, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) 07:45, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::The poser concept is a very broad and complex one, and when it comes to punk music it's even harder to draw the line correctly. A truly punk band is impossible to find on the mainstream market nowadays, since being punk is not just playing a certain kind of music or dressing in a certain way; it's a way of life. Thus this is, in theory, a genre entirely made up of posers. So I don't think that's really the matter here. The issue is mostly fanbase related, I think. You could assume that a fan of The Offspring also listens to, for example, Pantera. The same could not be said about an Avril Lavigne fan. Pop punk is the fine line between heavier music and mainstream teenager music. I'm not trying to say that Avril is a manufactured singer, though. I mean, she ''was'' inthe beggining of her career, her singing was hideous live, but things have changed with time. What I'm trying to say is that she isn't an entry point to heavier bands, as it happens with most pop punk bands. ::Well, that's my POV anyway. I don't care either way, since I'm not very into mainstream North American bands and such. I like Thrice and maybe Autopilot Off. So if after what I said you still think Avril is pop punk, then at least put her name on alphabetic order. :P --User:Sn0wflake 18:51, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::I think it's a little unfair to judge an artist based upon the actions of certain fans - all bands have followers who do incredibly stupid things from time to time, which the artist may not want to be associated with. As someone has been to several of Avril's gigs, I can assure you that the stereotype of the majority Avril's fanbase being 14-year-old teenybopper sheep is incorrect. This may indeed have been the case at the beginning of her career - I have no idea, but it certainly wasn't when I saw her. Quite a large number of Avril followers seem to be fans of other, less mainstream female punk bands such as The Donnas and Sahara Hotnights - I don't see why she couldn't be just as much of any 'entry point' to the harder stuff as any of the other bands listed... ::::First of all, it's nice to see an intelligent debate about this subject and not the usual "Avrils a posuer!" "No she r0x0rs!" that goes on far too much. However, I still don't believe Avril Lavigne needs to be put in here. Musically speaking, Lavigne has more in common with the likes of Pink (musician) and Michelle Branch (though moreso the former than the latter) than Sum 41 or even Simple Plan- most of "Let Go" and "Under My Skin" are clearly singer/songwriter pop music than the more traditional, heavier pop-rock that Sum 41 and Simple Plan are associated with. Mind you, musical differences are subjective, but I see enough of a difference between Lavigne and Sum 41 to say that they do 'not' belong together. ::::However, if we're labelling Lavigne based on attitude- which has nothing to do with the music, which is what I think we should be sticking to- then we need to talk about other pop stars with "rebel" attitudes and "rockish" music, like Kid Rock and the aforementioned Pink, because they're in the same category as Lavigne. Perhaps a rewrite should say that "despite her debateable connections to punk, Lavigne's appearance onto the music scene solidified what many punk fans saw as a 'watering down' of the punk image, making into something that could be marketed and exploiyed", because that ''did'' happen. The current version isn't that bad, but it still leaves a lot out. -User:RomeW :::I'll re-add her to the list - point taken about alphabetizing. :) 23:07, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) User:Kurt Shaped Box 23:07, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Full Rewrite== OK everybody, Ive just done a full blown rewrite of this article due to the calls from certain people that it should be merged with the punk pop article. Undoubtably we will not all agree on the accruracy or whatever of this article but please do not simply revert it back to the old one. Personnally I think that if everybody chips in we can make this an article that will satisfy everyone equally and that it can be a good article potentially.User:Motown Junkie 18:36, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Deletion Now== I edited the topic and someone changed it back. I'm a music critic in England for 30 years now. I saw the rise and fall of punk, it's alpha and omega, and I can say for sure that this article has no point in existing. Pop punk is a completely wrong label. The sound of Blink 182, Green Day, Athreyu and others like them has nothing to do with the sound punk really is. The right label for it should be Power Pop or Pop Rock. Anyone with a medium knowledge of true rock know this. By allowing an article like this, Wikipedia only shows it's complete lack of credibillity, and, when one trys to correct it, you take it back the way it was. I think there should be a review of the topic and people should be able to correct something when it's not right! What kind of free encyclopedia you are if you allow only your views? This topic is wrong and I, with my 30 years of experience in music, demand a review or extinction of this topic. Johnatan Wilkin, Music Critic == I think this article should be deleted and forwarded to Punk Pop == The Punk pop article is much better written and more broad in its description of pop punk. This is too heavily focused on the post-Dookie era where "true" punkers began to despise poppunk. == ok == ok, guys I have merged the two articles and with your help I will make the quality better. After a couple of days I'll delete the punk pop article, because two articles about one theme is something completely stupid and redundant. If you have some new ideas for the article - please help me. I think we'll make better work together. But I'm firm on my decision of the removal of punk pop. If you disagree (it's a wonder why, especially after the two articles have been merged), please say it here or in the discussion page. But please don't revert my work without any word, because I get angry when a bunch of fuckos start to revert my work. It's bad and I am certainly unhappy about that. Thank you very much for your atention. User:Painbearer 21:16, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC) * I can't wait for your update. The delete marker on Punk pop has been removed, it should be a redirect, as the term is a valid one (though I've more widely heard Pop Punk). Just promise that Green Day's Dookie is not considered the first wave of pop punk... User:Davetron5000
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