
PLATO, an apronym for ''Programmed Logic for Automatic Teaching Operation'', was one of the first generalized Computer assisted instruction systems, originally built by the University of Illinois and later taken over by Control Data (CDC), who provided the machines it ran on. PLATO ran for many years at the U of I, but William Norris's plans to make it a major force in the computing world and a keystone of corporate social responsibility failed. Although the project was economically a failure and supplanted by other technologies when it was finally turned off in the 1990s, PLATO nevertheless pioneered key concepts such as online forums and message boards, email, chat rooms, picture languages, instant messaging, remote screen sharing, and multiplayer online games. == Background == Prior to the 1960s, university educations were limited to a tiny minority of the population. But the future trend to much larger enrollment in higher education was already clear in the early 1950s, and the problem of providing for an influx of new students was a serious concern. A number of people proposed that if the computer could increase the capabilities of the factory via automation, then surely it could do the same for education. In 1957 the Soviet Union launched Sputnik I, and the United States suddenly felt a collective sense of educational inferiority. The result was massive spending on science and engineering education; computer-based education along with it. In 1958 the US Air Force's Office of Scientific Research held a conference on the topic at the University of Pennsylvania, and a number of groups --notably IBM -- presented studies on the topic. == PLATOs birth == Chalmers Sherwin, a physicist at the University of Illinois, suggested a computerized learning system to William Everett, Dean of the College of Engineering. Everett recommended that Daniel Alpert, another physicist, convene a meeting on the topic that included engineers, educators, mathematicians, and psychologists. After several weeks of meetings the group was unable to suggest a single design for such a system. Alpert was unhappy with the results, but before announcing their failure he mentioned the meetings to a lab assistant, Donald Bitzer. Bitzer claimed that he had already been thinking about the problem, and suggested that he could build a demonstration system. Donald Bitzer, regarded as the "father of PLATO", succeeded largely due to his rejection of "modern" educational thinking. Returning to a basic drill-based system, his team improved on existing systems by allowing students to bypass lessons they already understood. Their first system, PLATO I first ran on the locally-built ILLIAC I computer in 1960. It included a TV for display and a special keyboard to navigate the system's menus. In 1961 they introduced PLATO II, which ran two users at once. Convinced of the value of the project, the PLATO system entered a major redesign between 1963 and 1966. The new PLATO III allowed "anyone" to design new lesson modules using their TUTOR language, brainchild of Paul Tenczar. Built on a CDC 1604 which had been given to them for free by William Norris, PLATO III could run up to 20 lessons at once, and was used by a number of local facilities in Urbana-Champaign that could be attached to the system with their custom terminals. == NSF involvement == PLATO I, II and III had been funded by small grants from a combined Army-Navy-Air Force funding pool, but by the time PLATO III was in operation everyone involved was convinced it was worthwhile to scale up the project. Accordingly, in 1967 the National Science Foundation granted the team steady funding, allowing Bitzer to set up the ''Computer-based Education Research Laboratory'' (CERL) at the university. In 1972 a new system named PLATO IV was ready for operation. The PLATO IV terminal was a major innovation. It included Bitzer's Plasma display invention which incorporated both memory and bitmapped graphics into one display. This Plasma display included fast vector line drawing capability and ran at 1260 baud, rendering 180 characters per second. The PLATO IV display also included a Touch panel allowing students to answer questions by touching anywhere on the screen, and a Slide projector that could display microfiche slides from behind the plasma panel. Early in 1972, researchers from Xerox PARC were given a tour of the PLATO system at the University of Illinois. At this time they were shown parts of the system such as the Show Display application generator for pictures on PLATO (later translated into a "Doodle" program at PARC, an ancestor of Apple's QuickDraw), and the Charset Editor (which edited downloadable bit maps, an ancestor of MacPaint), and the Term Talk and Monitor Mode communications program. Many of the new technologies they saw were adopted and improved upon when these researchers returned to Palo Alto, CA. By 1975 the PLATO System served almost 150 locations from a donated CDC 6600, including not only the users of the PLATO III system, but a number of grammar schools, high-schools and various colleges and universities. PLATO IV offered graphics and animation in addition to basic text-based services, and included a messaging service that allowed TUTOR programs to send data between various users. This later service was used both for chat-type programs, as well as the first multi-user flight simulator. With the introduction of PLATO IV, Bitzer declared general success, claiming that the goal of generalized computer instruction was now available to all. However the terminals were very expensive, supporting 512x512 resolution overlayed on a powered color microfiche system for "background graphics" that changed slides with compressed air. Invariably the air tank ran out and the classroom would be rendered inoperable. As a generalized system PLATO would likely need to be scaled down for cost reasons alone. == The CDC years == As PLATO IV reached production quality, William Norris became increasingly interested in it as a potential product. His interest was two-fold. From a strict business perspective, he was evolving Control Data into a service based company instead of a hardware one, and was increasingly convinced that computer-base education would become a major market in the future. At the same time, Norris was upset by the unrest of the late 1960s, and felt that much of it was due to social inequalities that needed to be addressed. PLATO offered a solution by providing higher education to segments of the population that would otherwise never be able to afford university. Norris provided CERL with machines to develop their system on in the late 1960s. In 1971 he set up a new division within CDC to develop PLATO "courseware", and eventually many of CDC's own initial training and technical manuals ran on it. In 1974 PLATO was running on in-house machines at CDC headquarters in Minneapolis, and in 1976 they purchased the commercial rights in exchange for a new CDC Cyber machine. CDC announced the acquisition soon after, claiming that by 1985 50% of the company's income would be related to PLATO services. Through the 1970s CDC tirelessly promoted PLATO, both as a commercial tool and one for re-training unemployed workers in new fields. Norris refused to give up on the system, and invested in several non-mainsteam courses, including a crop-information system for farmers, and various courses for inner-city youth. CDC even went as far as to place PLATO terminals in some shareholder's houses, to demonstrate the concept of the system. In the early 1980s CDC started heavily advertizing the service, apparently due to increasing internal dissent over the now $600 million project, taking out print and even radio ads promoting it as a general tool. ''The Minneapolis Tribune'' was unconvinced by their ad copy and started an investigation of the claims. In the end they concluded that while it was not proven to be a better education system, everyone using it nevertheless enjoyed it at least. An official evaluation by an external testing agency ended with roughly the same conclusions, suggesting that everyone enjoyed using it, but it was essentially equal to an average human teacher in terms of student advancement. Of course a computerized system equal to a human should have been a major achievement, the very concept that the early pioneers in CBT were aiming for. A computer could serve all the students in a school for the cost of maintaining it, and wouldn't go on strike. However CDC charged $50 an hour for access to their data center, in order to recoup some of their development costs, making it considerably more expensive than a human on a per-student basis. PLATO was therefore a failure in any real sense, although it did find some use in large companies who didn't want to staff up their teaching departments. An attempt to mass-market the PLATO system was introduced in 1980 as Micro-PLATO, which ran the basic TUTOR system on various home computers. Versions were built for the Texas Instruments TI-99/4A, Atari 8-bit family, S-100 bus and (later) IBM PC. Micro-PLATO could be used stand-alone for normal courses, or could attach to a CDC data center for multiuser programs. To make the later affordable, CDC introduced the Homelink service for $5 an hour. In 1986 Norris stepped down as CEO, and the PLATO service was slowly killed off. He tirelessly supported it to the end, announcing that it would be only a few years before it represented a major source of income for CDC as late as 1984. Nevertheless he later claimed that Micro-PLATO was one of the reasons PLATO got off-track. They had started on the TI-99/4A, but then TI pulled the plug and they moved to other systems like the Atari, who soon did the same. He felt that it was a waste of time anyway, as the system's value was in its online nature, which Micro-PLATO lacked (at least to start). Bitzer was more forthright about CDC's failure, blaming their corporate culture for the problems. He noted that development of the courseware was averaging $300,000 a module, many times what the CERL was paying for similar products. This meant that CDC had to charge high prices in order to recoup their costs, prices that made the system unattractive. The reason, he suggested, for these high prices was that CDC had set up a division that had to keep itself profitable via courseware development, forcing them to raise the prices in order to keep their headcount up during slow periods. == PLATO in South Africa == During the period when CDC was marketing PLATO, the system began to be used internationally. South Africa was one of the biggest users of PLATO in the early 1980s. ESCOM, the South African electrical power company had a large CDC mainframe at Vanderbilt Park in the northwest suburbs of Johannesburg. Mainly this computer was used for management and data processing tasks related to power generation and distribution, but it also ran the PLATO software. The largest PLATO installation in South Africa during the early 1980s was at the University of the Western Cape, which served a Black population, and at one time had hundreds of PLATO IV terminals all connected by leased data lines back to Johannesburg. There were several other installations at educational institutions in South Africa, among them Madadeni College in the Madadeni township just outside of Newcastle, South Africa. This was perhaps the most unusual PLATO installation anywhere. Madadeni had about 1,000 students, all of them black and 99.5% of Zulu ancestry. The college was one of 10 teacher preparation institutions in kwaZulu, most of them much smaller. In many ways Madadeni was very primitive. None of the classrooms had electricity and there was only one telephone for the whole college, which one had to crank for several minutes before an operator might come on the line. So an air-conditioned, carpeted room with 16 computer terminals was a stark contrast to the rest of the college. At times the only way a person could communicate with the outside world was through PLATO term-talk. For many of the Madadeni students, most of whom came from very rural areas, the PLATO terminal was the first time they encountered any kind of electronic technology. (Many of the first year students had never seen a flush toilet before.) There initially was skepticism that these technologically illiterate students could effectively use PLATO, but those concerns were not borne out. Within an hour or less most students were using the system proficiently, mostly to learn math and science skills, although a lesson that taught keyboarding skills was one of the most popular. A few students even used on-line resources to learn TUTOR, the PLATO programming language, and a few wrote lessons on the system in the Zulu language. PLATO was also used fairly extensively in South Africa for industrial training. ESCOM successfully used PLM (PLATO learning management) and simulations to train power plant operators, South African Airways (SAA) used PLATO simulations for cabin attendant training, and there were a number of other large companies, as well, that were exploring the use of PLATO. The South African subsidiary of CDC invested heavily in the development of an entire secondary school curriculum (SASSC) on PLATO, but unfortunately as the curriculum was nearing the final stages of completion, CDC began to falter in South Africa, partly because of financial problems back home, partly because of growing opposition in the United States to doing business in South Africa, and partly due to the rapidly evolving microcomputer, a paradigm shift that CDC failed to recognize. == The PLATO Online Community == Although PLATO was designed for computer-based education, many consider its most enduring legacy to be the online community spawned by its communication features. PLATO Notes, introduced in 1973, was among the world's first online message boards, and years later became the direct progenitor of Lotus Notes. By 1976, PLATO had sprouted a variety of novel tools for online communication, including Personal Notes (email), Talkomatic (chat rooms), and Term-Talk (instant messaging and remote screen sharing). PLATO's architecture also made it an ideal platform for online gaming. Many extremely popular games were developed on PLATO during the 1970s and 1980s, such as Empire (a massively multiplayer game based on Star Trek), Airfight (a precursor to Microsoft Flight Simulator), the original Freecell, and several "dungeons and dragons" games that presaged MUDs and MOOs as well as popular shoot-em-up games like Doom and Quake. These communication tools and games formed the basis for a thriving online community of thousands of PLATO users, which lasted for well over twenty years. The history of this community has been documented in much greater detail in David Woolley's article "[http://thinkofit.com/plato/dwplato.htm PLATO: The Emergence of Online Community]." In August of 2004, a version of PLATO (see [http://www.cyber1.org/index.htm Cyber1.org]) from the 1980-1985 period was resurrected online and word of its reincarnation spread rapidly. Within 6 months by word of mouth more than 500 former users have signed up to use this system. Many of the students who used PLATO in the 1970's and 1980's feel a special social bond with the Community of Users who came together using the powerful communications tools on PLATO (talk programs, records systems, and notes files.) The original PLATO IV system had more than 12,000 contact hours of courseware, much of it developed by college professors for higher education. The knowledged embedded in this computer system is immense, even today. == Other versions == CDC eventually sold some of the rights to PLATO to the newly-formed The Roach Organization in 1989. In 2000 TRO changed their name to [http://www.plato.com/ PLATO Learning] and continue to sell and service PLATO courseware running on PC's. CDC continued development of the basic system under the name Cybis after selling the name to Roach, in order to service their larger commercial customers. The University of Illinois also continued development of PLATO, eventually setting up a commercial on-line service called NovaNET in partnership with University Communications. CERL was closed in 1994, with the maintenance of the PLATO code passing to UCI. UCI was later renamed NovaNET Learning, which was bought by National Computer Systems. Shortly after that, NCS was bought by Pearson, and after several name changes now operates as Pearson Digital Learning. CDC, meanwhile, sold off their mainframe Cybis business to University Online, which was a descendant of IMSATT. UOL was later renamed to VCampus. With one remaining mainframe system still running for the FAA, VCampus granted non-commercial rights to run a Cybis system to a small group of people at Cyber1, operating on a Cyber emulator running NOS, CDC's operating system. This followed limited rights to run NOS being granted to Symantec, which inherited the remainder of CDC's mainframe business. The Cyber1 system offers free access to the system in an attempt to re-build the original PLATO communities that grew up at CERL and on CDC systems in the 1980's. PLATO courseware was fairly extensive, covering a full range of high-school and college courses, as well as topics such as reading skills, family planning, Lamaze training and home budgeting. However the most popular "courseware" remained their multi-user games and computer role playing games such as ''dnd (computer game)'', although it appears CDC was uninterested in this market. As the value of a CDC-based solution disappeared in the 1980s, interested educators ported the engine first to the IBM PC, and later to web-based systems. Today, however, even the web-based versions appear to have disappeared. == Innovation == *Plasma display, circa 1964, by Donald Bitzer for PLATO III. *Touch Panel, circa 1964, by Donald Bitzer for PLATO III. *Show Display Mode, a graphics application generator for TUTOR software, precursor to Apple's QuickDraw picture language editor. *Charset Editor, an early version of MacPaint for drawing bitmapped pictures stored in downloadable fonts. *Airfight, circa 1972, a 3-D flight simulator written for PLATO by Brand Fortner; this probably inspired UIUC student Bruce Artwick to start Sublogic which was acquired and later became Microsoft Flight Simulator. *[http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~netrek/history/History.html Empire], a 30 person inter-terminal 2-D real-time space simulation, circa 1974. *Monitor Mode on PLATO, circa 1975, used by instructors to help students, precursor of Timbuktu screen-sharing software. *Notes, the first general-purpose computer message board, and precursor to Unix Newsgroups and Lotus Notes, 1973. *Talkomatic, a real-time chat room (text-based), 1974 *Term-Talk, precursor to instant messaging, circa 1974 *Panzer, circa 1977, a 3-D tank simulation that spawned Atari's Battlezone game. *Think15, circa 1977, 2-D outdoor wilderness quest simulation, like Trek with monsters, trees, treasures. *Avatar (computer game), circa 1978, a 2.5-D Multi-User Dungeon (MUD), a precursor to EverQuest. *Freecell, circa 1978 by Paul Alfille, which probably spawned the Windows version. ==External links== :[http://thinkofit.com/plato/dwplato.htm PLATO: The Emergence of Online Community] :[http://www.platopeople.com/index.html PLATO People] :[http://www.cbi.umn.edu/iterations/vanmeer.html#I PLATO: From Computer-Based Education to Corporate Social Responsibility] :[http://www.atarimagazines.com/v3n3/platorising.html PLATO RISING - Online learning for Atarians] :[http://www.cyber1.org/index.htm Cyber1.org : An online reincarnation of the PLATO system, circa 1980.]
PLATO is a backronym, not an apronym. The words were invented to fit the name they had already come up with. Last section references "interested educators ported the engine"; if you're referring to the various variants of the Tutor language, that isn't exactly porting "the engine". There were various offshoots, such as GIST's USE (?), Authorware, and CMU's version of Tutor (written by Bruce Sherwood and Dave Andersen, who had been system programmers at CERL PLATO), but PLATO itself is written in CDC assembly language - porting it has always been judged to be too difficult, except to run it on an emulator. The only real "ports" of PLATO are NovaNET (running on a Cyber emulator on a DEC Alpha), an internal product never released, internally called NovaNET-in-a-Can, and the Cybis system cloned from the FAA system running on a (different) Cyber emulator at cyber1.org. Sorry, I'm sort of new to wikipedia, not sure if this is the right way to bring up issues like this. I suppose I should create an account. Contact me at sep@shout.net if you want. == Fascinating Article == This is a very well-done article on an intriguing topic. I need to learn more about computer history. User:Superm401 | User_talk:Superm401 16:35, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
[[Image:Delphi Platon statue 1.jpg|thumb|Statue of a philosopher, presumely Plato, in Delphi.]] Plato (Greek language: Πλάτων ''Plátōn'') (c. May 21? 427 BC – c. 347 BC) was an immensely influential Hellenic civilization philosopher, student of Socrates, teacher of Aristotle, writer, and founder of the Academy in Athens. In countries speaking Arabic, Turkish or Persian, he is called Eflatun, which means a spring (water) of water, and, metaphorically, of knowledge. Plato lectured extensively at the Academy but he also wrote on many philosophical issues. The most important writings of Plato are his dialogues; although a handful of epigrams also survive, and some letters have come down to us under his name. All the known dialogues of Plato survive; some of the dialogues which the Greeks ascribed to him are considered by the consensus of scholars to be either suspect (e.g., ''First Alcibiades (dialogue)'', ''Clitophon (dialogue)'') or probably spurious (such as ''Demodocus (dialogue)'', or the ''Second Alcibiades (dialogue)''). Socrates is often a character in the dialogues of Plato. It is usually disputed how much of the content and argument of any given dialogue is Socrates' point of view, and how much of it Plato's. [[Image:Plato.png|thumb|"The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato." -- Alfred North Whitehead, Process and Reality, 1929]] ==Biography== Plato was born in Athens, into a moderately well-to-do aristocratic family. His father was named Ariston and his mother Perictione. His family claimed descent from the ancient King of Athens; and he was related (there is disagreement exactly how) to the prominent politician Critias. Plato's own real name was "Aristocles"; however, his nickname, Plato, originated from wrestling. Since "Plato" means ''broad'', it probably refers either to his physical appearance or to his wrestling stance or style. Plato became a pupil of Socrates in his youth, and — at least according to his personal account — he attended his master's trial, though not his execution. Unlike Socrates, Plato wrote down his philosophical views and left a considerable number of manuscripts (see below). He was deeply affected by the city's treatment of Socrates and much of his early work records his memories of his teacher. It is suggested that much of his ethical writing is in pursuit of a society where similar injustices could not occur. Plato was also deeply influenced by the Pythagoreans, whose notions of numerical harmony have clear echoes in Plato's notion of the Forms (sometimes thus capitalized; see below); by Anaxagoras, who taught Socrates and who held that the mind or reason pervades everything; and by Parmenides, who argued the unity of all things and was perhaps influential in Plato's conception of the Soul. Plato founded one of the earliest known organized schools in Western civilization when he was 40 years old on a plot of land in the Grove of Academe. The Academy was "a large enclosure of ground which was once the property of a citizen at Athens named Academus... some however say that it received its name from an ancient hero." (Robinson, Arch. Graec. I i 16) and it operated until it was closed by Justinian I of Byzantium in AD 529. Many intellectuals were schooled here, the most prominent being Aristotle. "Every man should expend his chief thought and attention on the consideration of his first principles: are they or are they not rightly laid down? and when he has sifted them, all the rest will follow." -Plato, Cratylus == Work == ===Themes=== In Plato's writings one finds debates concerning the best possible form of government, featuring adherents of aristocracy, democracy, monarchy, and others. A central theme is the one between nature and convention, concerning the role of heredity and environment in human intelligence and personality long before the modern "nature versus nurture" debate began in the time of Thomas Hobbes and John Locke, with its modern continuation in such controversial works as ''The Mismeasure of Man'' and ''The Bell Curve''. Another key distinction and theme in the Platonic corpus is that between knowledge and opinion, which foreshadow modern debates between David Hume and Immanuel Kant, and has been taken up by postmodernists and their opponents, more commonly as the distinction between the 'objective' and the 'subjective'. Even the story of the lost city or continent of Atlantis came to us as an illustrative story told by Plato in his ''Timaeus'' and ''Critias''. ===Form=== Plato wrote mainly in the form of dialogues. In the early ones several characters discuss a topic by asking questions of one another. Socrates figures prominently and a lively, more disorganized form of elenchos/dialectic is perceived; these are called the Socratic Dialogues. But the qualities of the dialogues changed a great deal over the course of Plato's life. It is generally agreed that Plato's earlier works are more closely based on Socrates' thoughts, whereas his later writing increasingly breaks away from the views of his former teacher. In the middle dialogues, Socrates becomes a mouthpiece for Plato's own philosophy, and the question-and-answer style is more ''pro forma'': the main figure represents Plato and the minor characters have little to say except "yes"; "of course" and "very true". The later dialogues read more like treatises, and Socrates is often absent or quiet. It is assumed that the later dialogues were written entirely by Plato, while some of the early dialogues could be transcripts of Socrates' own dialogues. The question which, if any, of the dialogues are truly socratic is called the Socratic problem. The ostensible ''mise-en-scene'' of a dialogue distances both Plato and a given reader from the philosophy being discussed; one can choose between at least two options of perception: either to participate in the dialogues, in the ideas being discussed, or choose to see the content as expressive of the personalities contained within the work. The dialogue format also allows Plato to put unpopular opinions in the mouth of unsympathetic characters, e.g. Thrasymachus in ''Republic (Plato)''. == Plato's Metaphysics: Platonism, or realism == One of Plato's legacies, and perhaps his greatest, was his dualistic metaphysics, often called (in metaphysics) Platonism or (Exaggerated) Realism. Plato's metaphysics divides the world into two distinct aspects: the intelligible world of "forms" and the perceptual world we see around us. He saw the perceptual world, and the things in it, as imperfect copies of the intelligible ''forms'' or ''ideas''. These forms are unchangeable and perfect, and are only comprehensible by the use of the intellect or understanding (i.e., a capacity of the mind that does not include sense-perception or imagination).This division can be found before Plato in Zoroaster philosophy (6th century BC), which is called Minu (intelligence) and Giti (perceptual) worlds, as well as the concept of an ideal state which Zoroaster called Shahrivar (an ideal city). In the ''Republic'' Books VI and VII, Plato uses a number of metaphors to explain his metaphysical views: the metaphor of Plato's metaphor of the sun, the well-known Plato's allegory of the cave, and most explicitly, the divided line of Plato. Taken together, these metaphors convey a complex and, in places, difficult theory: there is something called The Form of the Good (often interpreted as Plato's God), which is the ultimate object of knowledge and which as it were sheds light on all the other forms (i.e., universals: abstract kinds and attributes) and from which all other forms "emanate." The Form of the Good does this in somewhat the same way as the sun sheds light on or makes visible and "generates" things in the perceptual world. (See Plato's metaphor of the sun.) In the perceptual world the particular objects we see around us bear only a dim resemblance to the more ultimately real forms of Plato's intelligible world: it is as if we are seeing shadows of cut-out shapes on the walls of a cave, which are mere representations of the reality outside the cave, illuminated by the sun. (See Plato's allegory of the cave.) We can imagine everything in the universe represented on a line of increasing reality; it is divided once in the middle, and then once again in each of the resulting parts. The first division represents that between the intelligible and the perceptual worlds. Then there is a ''corresponding'' division in each of these worlds: the segment representing the perceptual world is divided into segments representing "real things" on the one hand, and shadows, reflections, and representations on the other. Similarly, the segment representing the intelligible world is divided into segments representing first principles and most general forms, on the one hand, and more derivative, "reflected" forms, on the other. (See the divided line of Plato.) The form of government derived from this philosophy turns out to be one of a rigidly fixed hierarchy of hereditary classes, in which the arts are mostly suppressed for the good of the state, the size of the city and its social classes is determined by mathematical formula, and eugenic measures are applied secretly by rigging the lotteries in which the right to reproduce is allocated. The tightness of connection of such government to the lofty and original philosophy in the book has been debated. Plato's metaphysics, and particularly the dualism between the intelligible and the perceptual, would inspire later Neoplatonism thinkers (see Plotinus and Gnosticism) and other metaphysical realists. For more on Platonic realism in general, see Platonic realism and the Forms. Plato also had some influential opinions on the nature of knowledge and learning which he propounded in the Meno (Plato), which began with the question of whether virtue can be taught, and proceeded to expound the concepts of recollection, learning as the discovery of pre-existing knowledge, and right opinion, opinions which are correct but have no clear justification (see Platonic epistemology). == A short history of Platonic scholarship == Plato's thought is often compared with that of his most famous student, Aristotle, whose reputation during the western Middle Ages so completely eclipsed that of Plato that the Scholastic philosophers referred to Aristotle as "the Philosopher." However, in the Byzantine Empire the study of Plato continued. The scholastic philosophers of the Middle Ages did not have access to the works of Plato - nor the Greek to read them. Plato's original writings were essentially lost to western civilization until they were brought from Constantinople in the century before its fall. What the mediaevals knew of Plato was translations into Latin from the translations into Arabic by Persian and Arab scholars. These scholars not only translated the texts of the ancients, but expanded them by writing extensive commentaries and interpretations on Plato's and Aristotle's works (see Al-Farabi, Avicenna, Averroes). Only in the Renaissance, with the general resurgence of interest in classical civilization, did knowledge of Plato's philosophy become more widespread again in the West. Many of the greatest early modern scientists and artists who broke with Scholasticism and fostered the flowering of the Renaissance, with the support of the Plato-inspired Lorenzo de Medici, saw Plato's philosophy as the basis for progress in the arts and sciences. By the 19th century Plato's reputation was restored and at least on par with Aristotle's. Notable Western philosophers have continued to examine Plato's work since that time, diverging from traditional academic approaches with their own philosophy as a basis. Nietzsche attacked Plato's moral and political theories, Heidegger expounded on Plato's obfuscation of ''Being'', and Karl Popper in ''The Open Society and Its Enemies'' (1945), argued that Plato's proposal for a government system in the dialogue ''Republic (Plato)'' was prototypically totalitarian. While many critics reject such readings on a variety of grounds, they remain widely discussed. == Bibliography == ''Note: Stephanus pagination is traditionally used to uniquely identify specific references to the text.'' Below is a list of works by Plato, marked (1) if scholars don't generally agree that Plato is the author, and (2) if scholars generally agree that Plato is ''not'' the author of the work. Those works ascribed to Plato that have a separate wikipedia article, can be found in :Category:Dialogues of Plato ''Note: the naming conventions regarding Wikipedia articles on Plato's texts are currently under revision'' ''See: Category Talk:Dialogues of Plato'' ====Tetralogies==== The works are traditionally arranged according to tetralogy ascribed to an ancient scholar and court astrologer to Tiberius named Thrasyllus by Diogenes Laertius: *I. ''Euthyphro'', ''Apology (Plato)'', ''Crito'', ''Phaedo (Plato)'' *II. ''Cratylus (Plato)'', ''Theaetetus (Plato)'', ''Sophist (Plato)'', ''Statesman (Plato)'' *III. ''Parmenides (Plato)'', ''Philebus (Plato)'', ''Symposium (Plato)'', ''Phaedrus (Plato)'' *IV. ''First Alcibiades (dialogue)'' (1), ''Second Alcibiades (dialogue)'' (2), ''Hipparchus (dialogue)'' (2), ''Rival Lovers (dialogue)'' (2) *V. ''Theages (dialogue)'' (2), ''Charmides (Plato)'', ''Laches (Plato)'', ''Lysis (Plato)'' *VI. ''Euthydemus (Plato)'', ''Protagoras (Plato)'', ''Gorgias (dialogue)'', ''Meno (Plato)'' *VII. ''Greater Hippias (dialogue)'' (1), ''Lesser Hippias (Plato)'', ''Ion (Plato)'', ''Menexenus (Plato)'' *VIII. ''Clitophon (dialogue)'' (1), ''Republic (Plato)'', ''Timaeus (Plato)'', ''Critias (Plato)'' *IX. ''Minos (dialogue)'' (2), ''Laws (Plato)'', ''Epinomis (dialogue)'' (2), ''Letters (Plato)'' (1) ====Other==== The remaining works were transmitted under Plato's name, but were considered spurious in antiquity: *''Axiochus (dialogue)'' (2), ''Definitions (Plato)'' (2), ''Demodocus (dialogue)'' (2), ''Epigrams (Plato)'', ''Eryxias (dialogue)'' (2), ''Halcyon (dialogue)'' (2), ''On Justice'' (2), ''On Virtue'' (2), ''Sisyphus (dialogue)'' (2) ==References== *Jackson, Roy (2001). ''Plato: A Beginner's Guide''. London:Hoder & Stroughton. ISBN 0-340-80385-1. *''The Collected Dialogues of Plato'' (Bollingen Series LXXI), edited by Edith Hamilton and Huntington Cairns, (1961) ISBN 0691097186 *''Plato: Complete Works'', edited by John M. Cooper and D. S. Hutchinson, (1997) ISBN 0872203492 *Oxford University Press publishes scholarly editions of Plato's Greek texts in the ''Oxford Classical Texts'' series, and some translations in the ''Clarendon Plato Series''. *Harvard University Press publishes the hardbound series ''Loeb_Classical_Library#Plato'', containing Plato's works in Greek, with English translations on facing pages. == See also == * Platonism * Neoplatonism * List_of_publications_in_philosophy#Western philosophy ==External links== * [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/authrec?fk_authors=93 Works by Plato] at Project Gutenberg * [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/authrec?fk_authors=688 Spurious and doubtful works] at Project Gutenberg * *[http://www.philosophicalsociety.com/Archives/Plato%20And%20The%20Theory%20Of%20Forms.htm "Plato & The Theory of Forms," at Philosophical Society.com] *Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: **[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato/ Plato] **[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-ethics/ Plato's Ethics] **[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-friendship/ Friendship and Eros] **[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-metaphysics/ Middle Period Metaphysics and Epistemology] **[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-utopia/ Plato on Utopia] **[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-rhetoric/ Rhetoric and Poetry] 427 BC births 347 BC deaths Ancient Greek philosophers Ancient Athenians Platonism bn:প্লেটো la:Plato ms:Plato nds:Platon simple:Plato th:เพลโต
==Old talk (up to July 2004)== ===I=== The original title of the book known IN ENGLISH as The Republic has nothing to do with elective government. The Greek word was ''Politeia,'' a word that translates fairly well as "Regime" or "sytem of government." Don't go all un-neutral on the book in the entry. I don't like Plato's ideal state either, but the title "Republic" is Cicero's, I think. --MichaelTinkler : Not sure what the old text to which this refers was like. But if anyone wants to dispute the accuracy of my characterization of the political system in the so-caleed Republic, please do. User:Dandrake 01:58 18 Jul 2003 (UTC) I see no reason to have "Complete works of Plato" as a separate topic; it should be a subpage. If the actual works are entered into the Wikipedia later, they may also be subpages of :Plato. --:AV The should be ''against'' webpages. If we were to have made every topic that ''could'' be made a subtopic of a main topic, we'd have a disaster on our hands. Don't you think that it's interesting that most of the Wikipedia old hands are solidly against subpages? You're new here, Anatoly--you probably don't understand entirely, yet. --:LMS ===II=== More arguments on why "Complete works" should be a subpage: Larry, both in :Naming conventions and in your essay on subpages, the only reason advanced against subpages is that the topic of the subpage may be of independent interest rather than totally subsumed within the topic of the page. :I do not have just one reason. I have three essays that address the issues surrounding subpages. :I'm soon going to start pushing hard to eliminate subpages ''entirely.'' I'm going to ask that they be completely eliminated from the PHP wiki. Now, in this particular case, I feel strongly that you're pushing it too far. What else do you need "Complete works of Plato" for if not in the context of Plato?? :The context of "complete works of philosophers." The context of works, generally. The context of philosophical texts. Etc. Just about the only conceivable alternative is that of some general "Complete works of various authors" page with links to individual pages. But, first, the idea is rather ridiculous anyway, and, secondly, there's nothing stopping us from linking to subpages from outside the main page in case it's needed. :Why does there have to be a page that links to the complete works of all authors? I'm not sure what the use of that would be, actually. OTOH, I believe that you fail to consider the benefit of proper subpaging. :I think you don't sufficiently appreciate why they're so ''evil.'' It's not just about hierarchies, though it's about that; it's also about reducing the clutter in the main namespace, :This is not a problem, though. The sheer number of pages is going to be identical. and reducing the number of ad hoc naming schemes. When you introduce something like "Complete works of Plato" as a name of an encyclopaedia topic, the readers will assume that it's a part of a general scheme, "Complete works of X" - but if there's only one or a few topic of this kind, then you're cluttering the conceptual field of the main namespace. :I don't see how using subpages avoids the same "problem." I don't quite understand how it's a problem in the first place, anyway. What this means is that you give the readers another concept of how topics might be named (not just "X" or "History of X" or "the problem of X" or whatever, but now also "Complete works of X"), but the concept isn't really put to good use. :Why not? What's wrong with that concept? :Actually, I do think "X's works" would be better, but we don't have the use of apostrophes yet. :Plato's works is where this information should be filed. Finally, subpaging in such cases naturally helps establish better linking. This page already had a backlink to :Plato; I removed it when I moved it to a subpage and you failed to restore it when moving it back. But ideally it '''shouldn't''' have a link to :Plato because the connection to Plato is entirely obvious from the title itself. The backlink adds no useful information whatsoever, forms no new associations or connections. When it's moved to a subpage, the arrangement suddenly becomes much better: the backlink is now part of the general linkbar, an automatic feature of the subpage mechanism, and it draws no unnecessary attention of a reader. When it's needed, it's there; where it's not needed (in the body of the article), it's not. :This is an advantage, but it is an extremely weak one. One could make the same argument with regard to ''any'' plausible parent page-subpage pairing; but that by itself isn't a sufficient reason to make the subpage a subpage of the parent page. To be consistent, we would have to start making zillions of subpages of all sorts of topics, with no rhyme or reason, and setting up all sorts of conceptual relations and hierarchies that limit how we think and write about various topics. Besides, subpage titles are just plain ugly and cumbersome to deal with when linking to them from outside the main page-subpage article grouping. (As I've explained in my essays.) I await with interest your response to these points. --:AV :Keep working on the project for a few months and ''then'' see how you feel about subpages. I'm going to start an article about this in :Wikipedia commentary--I'm going to raise the issue that we should entirely eliminate subpages from the new PHP wiki code, and convert :foo/bar page titles in the present wiki to :foo--bar in the new wiki. --:LMS ===III=== I'm not Larry, but I'll point out that the page already had notes about textual history (by or not by Plato), a subject worth a page. --MichaelTinkler :About textual history of Plato's works, not textual history as a separate subject. And sure, it's worth a page, only there's no reason for this page not to be a subpage -- :AV ::Again, you assume that the presumption should be in favor of subpages, which it definitely shouldn't be. --LMS ===V=== The following appears to be an idiosyncratic polemic on the part of someone who is not familiar with our NPOV policy. I'll salvage from it what I can that is consistent with the policy, but a lot of it appears to me to be little more than bald statement of opinion with not a lot of useful informational content. The notion that ''Aristotle'' is responsible for the ignorance of Plato's works for so long strikes me as extremely implausible on its face and certainly not something that should be stated so (ironically) dogmatically in an encyclopedia article. --User:Larry Sanger :This is unfortunate since it has long been recognized that Aristotle's criticisms of his teacher, Plato, are based on an extremely faulty understanding and gross misrepresentation of Plato's thought, involving a complete mischaracterization of Plato's positions on virtually all of the critical issues central to his philosophy. Whether this betrayal of his teacher, Plato, was due to simple jealousy or a pathological desire to diminish Plato's reputation in order to elevate his own, this represents a severe stain on the reputation of Aristotle. As an indirect result of Aristotle's influence, it might be argued, Plato's work was lost to western civilization for many centuries. :Aristotle's philosophy has often been regarded as the basis of all subsequent philosophical dogmatism and as the source of the decline (and even eradication) of rational inquiry particularly during the Dark Ages. This is paradoxical since Aristotle is popularly (though, it might be argued, incorrectly) linked with an empirical approach to science. Believing as he did that scientific issues--from the laws of the universe to the functions of animals--could be settled by abstract logical reasoning rather than careful study and direct observation, and that all possible knowledge of the universe and man had already been attained leaving nothing fundamentally new for scientific or psychological or artistic discovery, Aristotle's philosophy lent itself to a variety of dogmatic systems from the ideas of the Scholastics in the Middle Ages to the dogmatic attitude of the followers of Ayn Rand today who believe that Aristotle's principles constitute the unquestionable basis of all philosophical reasoning and inquiry. :Aristotle's unrelenting dogmatism is entirely in contrast to the most fundamental principles of Plato and his beloved teacher Socrates, both of whom taught that man is in a state of almost complete ignorance concerning both natural phenomena and transcendent truths due to a congenital near-blindness to truth and knowledge. Above all, Plato affirmed Socrates’ teaching that the wisest man is the one who is most aware of his own ignorance. If we are ignorant and think that we have knowledge, this belief constitutes the worst form of sickness to which the human mind is subject. On the other hand, if we are ignorant, and also aware of our ignorance, this tends to create in us a profound desire to discover what we do not know--however limited our capacities may be. :It was only with the repudiation of Aristotelian scientific, artistic and psychological dogma and authority and the resumption of the outlook of Socrates and Plato who professed ignorance rather than infallible powers for abstract knowledge of nature and reality, that the Renaissance and the development of modern science were made possible. For it required a repudiation of Aristotelian dogmatic principles for the sciences and the arts to free themselves for the discovery of modern scientific laws and empirical methods. Many of the greatest modern scientists (e.g. Galileo) and artists (with the support of the Plato-inspired Lorenzo de Medici) who broke with Scholasticism and fostered the flowering of the Renaissance saw Plato’s philosophy as the basis for progress in the arts and sciences. :One of the characteristics of the Dark Ages was reliance on authority and on scholastic commentaries on writings of Plato and other historically important philosophers, rather than accessing their original works. In fact, Plato’s original writings were essentially lost to western civilization until their reintroduction in the twelfth century through the agency of Arab scholars who had maintained the original Greek texts of the ancients. These were eventually translated into Latin and all of Plato's surviving dialogues are now available in English translation. :In Plato’s writings, many centuries before Copernicus and Galileo, one finds the heliocentric theory of the universe. One finds debates concerning republican and democratic forms of government, long before the founding fathers of America formed their republic. One finds debates concerning the role of heredity and environment in human intelligence and personality long before the publication of “The Bell Curve” or the formation of Human Genome Project or the discovery that schizophrenia has a genetic basis. One finds arguments for the subjectivity--and the objectivity--of human knowledge which foreshadow modern debates between Hume and Kant, or between the postmodernists and their opponents. Plato looks ugly in the picture,I think it should be removed. :For more information on the conflict between Aristotle and Plato and their followers: http://www.platonicforms.com/ ===VI=== I've removed this sentence as it tells me nothing that could not apply to many other historical figures: ''The actual existence of Socrates is still debated, as little direct evidence proves his existence.'' There appears to be some evidence of his existence, but this gives no mention of who might be debating. -User:Wikibob | User talk:Wikibob 20:34, 2004 Apr 26 (UTC) ===VII=== Where in Plato's writings does one find the heliocentric universe? I'd like to find what he actually said about it. None of the other articles that mention the subject attribute the idea to Plato. User:Dandrake 18:58, May 28, 2004 (UTC) :There are allusions to it in the ''Nomoi''. :MWAK--User:217.122.44.226 13:21, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC) Looking through http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/laws.7.vii.html (admittedly without great thoroughness), I find a couple of mentions of the "revolutions of the sun and moon", but no more. As that's not heliocentric, what am I missing? User:Dandrake 00:22, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC) It all starts with a remark from Plutarch, that Plato in his latter days began to regret that he hadn't set the Earth in its appropriate place. A cryptic remark. Predictably philologists have turned Plato's later works upside down in search of any clue to its meaning. Some very ingenious theories have been construed, none of them very cogent. Im my opinion the best of these is based on the ''Nomoi'' (893a e.s.) where Plato propounds the theory that God drives the Kosmos as a wheel is driven by its axis. At first blush this seems to accord with a geocentric model. Further reflection however shows that there is something wrong here: it would mean that the Earth, hardly a blessed place in Plato's view, is either the most direct physical representation of God or the point of His most direct intervention. So, ''if'' Plato is coherent, this centre of the Kosmos cannot be the Earth. It's obvious it isn't the Sun either. The model isn't really heliocentric but ''theocentric''. The Sun moves in circles. Around the Earth? A hierarchy seems to suggest itself. God is in (a single point in?) the centre. The Sun, singled out in the text, moves around God. Even lesser gods (the planets) in their turn move around the Sun (whose solar system thus forms an imitative microcosm), as does the Earth (apparently the body of a very minor, or even corrupted god or alternatively a simple lump of rock hurled about following the principle of 899a). The Moon moves around the Earth. Circles galore. Such a model would have been very attractive to Plato, who saw physical reality as an instance of eternal Laws that were coherent and simple (or elegant). At this time the retrograde motion of the planets must have become an embarrasment - as is shown by Eudoxos tackling the problem. Plato knew Philolaos and must have understood the relevance of a non-geocentric model in this respect: it would "save the phenomena" ''and'' the elegance of natural law of his beloved circles. Also it would have been an elegant explanation of the connection of Venus and Mercury with the Sun, that Plato was well aware of, as shown by the ''Timaios''. So perhaps. Perhaps Plato merely thought that the Earth, though in the centre, turned around its axis (again see 893c), like Herakleides did. This alone would make the movement of the planets much more simple. It would also fix the problem of the movement of the fixed stars. The text conspicuously shows an absence of "spheres" even though the Kosmos is a sphere. The theocentric model above would also need a rotating Earth to explain the apparent rotation of the whole around ''us'' while it in reality revolves around God. Perhaps Plato simply isn't coherent here. It happens to the best. Perhaps Plutarch wanted to suggest the opposite: that Plato in his ''youth'' was a follower of Philolaos' "hestiacentric" model. The theocentric model allows for a hestiacentric interpretation also, with the Sun and all the planets (directly) moving around God. Perhaps Plutarch didn't know what he was talking about and we're all on a wild goose chase. However recent interpretations of his ''De facie quae in orbe lunae apparet'' have hailed him as the Newton of Antiquity so you can't be too careful...;o) MWAK--User:217.122.44.226 14:38, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC) == Famous Platonists == Some scholars have argued that Galileo Galilei was a Platonist, but the idea is far from generally accepted. (Actually, it's wrong, but that's not germane here.) The straight-up claim that G was inspired by P doesn't belong in this article; at least, not without discussion here, or even better on the Galileo Talk page. So it has been removed. User:Dandrake 03:53, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC) :Good; if Galileo is a Platonist, it is in the special mathematical sense of the term. He was expressly opposed to eternity and changelessness as goods; consider the passage about diamonds and potting soil in ''Dialogue on the Tow World Systems''. User:Pmanderson 03:18, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Popper on Plato == Re: "I like my version better" Poppererian scholarship on Plato is just not that significant. Popper's reputation as a political philosopher never really recovered from his ''ad hominem'' assault on Hegel, his ill-informed scholarship on Marx, and his efforts to blame everything bad in the history of politics on Plato. I think we're misinforming people if we give the impression that Popper's attack on Plato is really a major issue in understanding Plato as a political philosopher. Plato as totalitarian is not something Popper started and is an idea most students are introduced to without reference to Popper. Popper was a major figure - if not the major figure - in the philosophy of science. But he is not someone who is taken very seriously in Plato scholarship and has most certainly not "eclipsed" Plato. That would be like making Rush Limbaugh out to be a major American cultural critic. Plato has his opponents. Either there should be a more balanced discussion of them or we should simply refer readers to The Republic. User:Diderot 05:38, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC) : (User:William M. Connolley 08:53, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)) I didn't say Popper had eclipsed Plato. If you can find a better originator for the criticism, please put it in. :: Thomas Thorson (Plato: Totalitarian or Democrat, 1963) points out that this view of Plato had wide circulation in Europe starting the early 30's, particularly in the kinds of socialist and borderline socialist communities that Popper circulated in. For crying out loud, Plato's political critics date back to his own favourite students. Aristotle, who carefully distinguished his notions of moral right from politics and was dead against the unrestricted state power he saw Plato advocating; and Xenophon, who essentially founded economics in his ''Oikonomikos'' just to prove his ex-prof wrong. Nietzsche found Plato's politics replusive, and said so, claiming that Plato's conception of utopia was "boring". ::Popper may have been the first to link Plato to the word ''totalitarian'', but that would most likely be because in the early 40's when he wrote ''The Open Society and its Enemies'' it was still a fairly new word. Criticism of Plato's Republic as essentially tyrranical dates back, depending on how you want to look at it, to the begining of the era when freedom was considered a good thing - roughly 300 years ago - or as far back as the fourth century to the early Christians' attacks on the neoplatonic Gnostics, if you want to include a theological defense of the non-perfectibility of man as a defense of human freedom. (e.g., the freedom to sin) ::To his credit, Popper does not claim to have invented "Plato the Totalitarian." His original contribution is the claim that ''everything is Plato's fault.'' However, response to Popper's claims about Plato's legacy are pretty negative. For that reason, I'm removing the word "convincing". ::: (User:William M. Connolley 16:44, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)) At the moment, the response-to-Popper stuff is terribly vague - nothing more than assertion. It needs to be firmed up, though poss within popper pages. The stuff about aristotle is prob worth adding somewhere, on your authority. However, the very early stuff is largely irrelevant to that section, which is a history of plato scholarship. Assuming it is correct when it says popper etc "diverge from traditional views", then the start of this appears to be 1930's and this should be said: there was a major revision of opinion of platos poltics beginning then. If all Nietzsche said was that platos utopia was boring then his claims to have started this were weak. I've not read nay N, but there is nothing about Plato on his wiki page. :::: A great deal about Plato in Nietzsche (mostly expressed as opinions on Socrates, but that's a formalism). Doubt it had much influence on the later criticism, though. (And where's Russell: History of Western Philosophy?) User:Pmanderson 03:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) == odd timeline etc == First, Aristotle commentors often make the case that it was the scholastics who were dogmatic with what were only notes for discusion, that dialogue was his true means and that he was anything but dogmatic himself. Try reading him from that perspective and you will probably be able to find some gems. Now this timeline... I'm not sure about parts. Please correct it if you can. But first... Aristotle's "the Athenean Constitution" (qv) tells a tale of great struggles between two parties, let's call them "aristos" and " demos". Alcibiades was saved by Soc ( who got to know Thucydides rather well at that battle apparently...) and party of aristos was a Very busy boy. Eugenics was revived in the US, with its race problems ( slaves and the genocide of the first Americans, interesting subject that ) and now there is all this damn Leo Straussian crapola as we enter a period of declining resources ( OIL ). So there are some rather important reasons to getting this old stuff right and getting the message out. True?: 404 -- Plato is convinced by his relatives to enter politics. (In OTL, he distances himself from politics because of the catastrophes of the Peloponnesian War, but in this ATL, there is still hope.) ~ Darius II of Persia dies, prompting Egypt to rebel under the leadership of Amyrtaeus of Sais, who founds the 28th Dynasty. PLATONIC PERIOD 395 - 348 BC -- Plato is elected Strategos of Athens and begins his program of transforming the Delian League into his own vision of a philosophical state. He introduces an examined civil service, founds a standard of education through the Academia, and reorganizes the League's military into cohesive mixtures of recruits from various member states. His social programs render the league citizens to resemble more the Spartan way of life, over time. Children come to be raised by the state from an early age into one of the three tiers of government: statesmen, soldiers, and laborers. This is determined by examination. Wealth becomes increasingly under the sole control of the state, and distributed according to its needs. Civil rights become increasingly eroded and the Democracy becomes a shell of its former self, since only those who were raised as statesmen-philosophers can take part in government. Social turmoil in the Delian League becomes commonplace, but is quelled. As the state exercises more and more control over the lives of the people, these rebellions become less common. 390 -- The Athenians forge an alliance with the recently independent kingdom of Egypt. The Athenian commander Chabrias is dispatched with a fleet and army to help the Egyptians prevent reconquest from the Persians. 378 -- Plato writes his book, Sophiocracy, which reflects his plans for organizing into a government divided into 3 classes: philosopher-statesmen, militarists, and workers. 367 -- Dionysius the Younger succeeds his father as tyrant of Syracuse. 360 -- War between Egypt and the Persian Empire erupts due to the aggressive new pharaoh. Under the leadership of the Pharaoh Tachos (Djeho), Egyptian and Athenian forces invade Palestine with great success, penetrating all the way to Phoenicia. In response to this success, Cyprus revolts. The Athenians are quick to gain Cyprus as an ally, and by 355, it is admitted to the Delian League as a member. For the first time in centuries, Egypt is once again an imperial power, thanks to the military and financial support of the Delian League while the Athenians gain trade interests along the Eastern Mediterranean coast. 357 - 336 BC -- Syracuse enters a tumultuous civil war when Dionysius the Younger is challenged by his uncle, Dion. Dion is able to defeat Dionysius in 354 but is later assasinated by Timoleon, a Corinthian who was in Dion's military service, who, in 344, solidifies his control by requesting help from the Peloponnesian League. Help comes just in time to route a new Carthaginian assault in Sicily. The result of the affair is that Syracuse joins the League as a formal member in 336. 350 -- The Athenians become distracted from the Macedonian War, by coming to the aid of the Egyptians once again when the Persians, under the cruel Artaxerxes III, attack again, in an attempt to recapture Egypt. At the battle of Sidon, the Persians are only repulsed with great losses on both sides. 348 -- Plato dies of natural causes. The attrition in the Phoenician expedition as well as Plato's death causes the Athenians to lose their resolve in the war. The Thebans unsuccessfully try to make gains in Thessaly against Philip II but no longer have the ingenuity to do so, ever since the death of Epaminondas. 345 -- Demosthenes is elected to Strategos and continues much of the policies of Plato. The Academia becomes the effective residence of the Strategos. 340 - 336 BC -- Latin War. Rome's Latin allies fight a war of independence, dragging the Campanians in as allies. As Rome begins to overcome the revolt, the Campanians request the help of the Peloponnesian League. The Syracusans and Spartans send aid that eventually turns the tide of the war against the Romans. As a result, Rome is defeated and ceases to be a major power in Italy. The Campanians are eventually brought in as allies and join the Peloponnesian League in 331 BC. Huxley might fit in here too. And: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Ancient_Greece There is a hell of a lot going on in this period, yet it is incredibly easy to read a few books and think one understands. Note that for several millenia the problem of the state was resolved by dictatorship, oligarchy and/or fuedalism. Democratic "forces" were the conspirators. 200 years ago the balance shifted leading to the rise of anti democratic conciousness. WW2 was the supposed triumph of democracy and self-determination, against the revanchement of the "aristos". The really sad part is the mediocrity, the mental incapcity, of those who use the power of industrial revolutions to play out their pathological games of superiority when the only thing in which they excell is "attitude" , that and Toynbee's mimesis foreshadow a crisis of immense proportions. Also, Medici were Platoid, several popes were Medici, Machiavelli wrote "The Prince" for them (Galileo was their court philosopher). WblakesxUser:Wblakesx --------------- :Wow, that's a neat one. Galileo wasn't even a Platonist, contrary to some philosophers' claims, as I noted above. Even if he were, what in hell does his work have to do with the efforts of the arstocracy to put down us good guys? Perhaps you're confusing him with that old genocidal Newton? [If you haven't run into that bit of mad pseudo-feminism, congratulate yourself on your luck.] User:Dandrake 00:32, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC) -------------- :Dan, a slight revision of the last sentence... Good guys? that might be an anachronism, after all the athenian demos weren't particuarly just, but apparently he has been used to support later ( and present ) faux elites. But why latch on to parenthesis when there is a larger question? WblakesxUser:Wblakesx ---------------- I've got to cut waay back on my attempts at facetiousness. As you say, Athenian demos weren't all that clearly good, and the phrase was my attempt at a joke about identifying them and [whoever it was in Galileo's time] and our democratic selves (whom I do see as good guys). Anyway, why I picked up on a parenthesis: I always say on newsgroups that if you're going to drop little ''obiter dicta'' in your posting, you have to be prepared to defend them. Galileo is a subject I know something about, and it's far from clear to me that the person who shocked the Old Guard by writing serious science in Italian for the middle class to read was a philosopher of aristocratic oppression—even if he did work for an aristocrat. On the other hand, I really don't know that much about Plato—just enough to have inserted a comment on his great political classic—so I'm not sticking myself into the larger and more important question. Cheers, User:Dandrake 01:20, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC) == Cleanup == I've attempted to cleanup some of the flow of language of this page. However, I would like to know the following: * ''All the known dialogues of Plato survive, however modern-day standard editions of his oeuvre generally contain dialogues considered by the consensus of scholars either suspect (e.g., Alcibiades, Clitophon) or probably spurious (such as Demodocus, or the Second Alcibiades).'' :* Please cite sources that detail this so people can independently verify what is being said. :* Why are Alcibiades and Clitophon considered suspect? :* Why are Demodocus or the Second Alcibiades considered spurious? :* Comment: this should be merged in with the main document and ''not'' in the introduction. * I cleaned up the text ''There is a prominent crater on the Moon named the Plato crater, in his honor.'', however I suspect that this could be added as another section with a very brief summary of why it was named what it was named. Again, I don't believe that this should be in the introduction. * I've updated the Plato#Biography section. Unfortunately, this isn't entirely complete. Where is the discussion of Plato and Dionysius of Syracuse and Dion, who he lusted after? Where is the discussion of Dionysius II and his attempt to make Plato a philosopher king? What about Plato's disillusionment with Athenian politics? Also, the biography has material that should be in writings - though the biography should probably cover when he wrote what texts and why. :*Also, the sentence ''It is suggested that much of his ethical writing is in pursuit of a society where similar injustices could not occur.'' uses a weasel term. Who suggests this? * In the Plato#Work section: :* It reads ''and the question-and-answer style is more pro forma''. Maybe I'm being a little dense here, but what exactly does this mean? Could we have a more clear definition? :* ''It is interesting to ponder the qualities of dialogue, for this makes the reader into an observer, rather than a recipient (the 'addressee' as it were), as would be the case with a non-dialogic presentation of beliefs.'' - peacock term! Surely this should be rewritten. ::* (User:William M. Connolley) I cut that :* ''In this sense, scholars such as Massimo Verdicchio have referred to the 'rhetorical nature of truth'.'' Interesting I'm sure, but this idea needs to be expanded and I'd like to know where Massimo Vedicchio said this so I could verify it for myself along with read it in it's context. Also, who is Massimo Vedicchio? Why is he significant? I'd also like to know this sort of information because right now it seems like mere academic name-dropping. ::* (User:William M. Connolley 20:06, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC))I cut that bit. * In the section Plato#A short history of Plato scholarship: :*''One of the characteristics of the Middle Ages was reliance on authority and on scholastic commentaries on writings of Plato and other historically important philosophers, rather than accessing their original works.'' - I'm confused. What does "One of the characteristics of the Middle Ages was reliance on authority and on scholastic commentaries", in particular the "Authority" part. What does this mean? :*''By the 19th century Plato's reputation was restored and at least on par with Aristotle's.'' The paragraphs in the text before hand do not give any indication that Plato's reputation was sullied. This should be reflected in the text somehow! :*''While many critics reject such readings on a variety of grounds, they remain widely discussed.'' - which critics? This is currently a weasel word style sentence. * I've added a references section (I got my material for the Academy that Plato founded from "Plato: A Beginner's Guide"). See Wikipedia:Cite sources for more information. Overall this article has heaps of potential and I believe that it can be expanded far more thoroughly. - User:Ta bu shi da yu 10:02, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC) :(User:William M. Connolley 20:06, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)) I made some other changes to "Work". The assertion that the dialogues mean it never becomes a tract is wrong: see the laws for example. I moved "several characters discuss a topic by asking questions of one another" so it only applies to the early ones. The only later ones I've read (republic; laws) can just about be called dialogues but certainly the bulk of them is the lead characters opinions, not a discussion. Shouldn't 'Letters' in Bibliography section link to something like 'Plato's Letters' instead of just 'Letters'? After all, if you click on 'Laws', you don't get (or, most likely, want) an explanation of laws as such, with no reference on Plato. This is analogous to 'Republic', too. ===Biographical=== I do not know much about Plato, but do you think that you could make the biography section a little more biographical and less like all of the other sections? Thanks. ==Naming of Wikipedia articles on Plato's texts== Naming of articles treating Plato's dialogues seperately is confusing, I propose following renamings (per tetralogy): :note 1: Since ::works marked (1) (scholars don't generally agree that Plato is the author) :and ::works marked (2) (scholars generally agree that Plato is ''not'' the author of the work) :might lead to discussion if marked "(Plato)", I'd mark these "(dialogue)", except where these works are no dialogues. :note 2: I copy this proposition to Category Talk:Dialogues of Plato, and propose to have the discussion there *I. **''Euthyphro'' -> Euthyphro (Plato) **''Apology'' -> Apology (Plato) **''Crito'' -> Crito (Plato) **''Phaedo'' -> Phaedo (Plato) *II. **''Cratylus (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Theaetetus'' -> Theaetetus (Plato) **''Sophist (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Statesman (Plato)'' (OK!) *III. **''Parmenides (dialogue)'' -> Parmenides (Plato) **''Philebus (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Symposium (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Phaedrus (Plato)'' (OK!) *IV. **''First Alcibiades (Plato)'' (1) -> First Alcibiades (dialogue) **''Second Alcibiades (Plato)'' (2) -> Second Alcibiades (dialogue) **''Hipparchus'' (2) -> Hipparchus (dialogue) **''Rival Lovers'' (2) -> Rival lovers (dialogue) *V. **''Theages'' (2) -> Theages (dialogue) **''Charmides (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Laches (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Lysis'' -> Lysis (Plato) *VI. **''Euthydemus (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Protagoras (dialogue)'' -> Protagoras (Plato) **''Gorgias (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Meno'' -> Meno (Plato) *VII. **''Greater Hippias'' (1) -> Greater Hippias (dialogue) **''Lesser Hippias'' -> Lesser Hippias (Plato) **''Ion'' -> Ion (Plato) **''Menexenus'' -> Menexenus (Plato) *VIII. **''Clitophon'' (1) -> Clitophon (dialogue) **''Plato's Republic'' -> Republic (Plato) **''Timaeus (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Critias (Plato)'' (OK!) *IX. **''Minos (Plato)'' (2) -> Minos (dialogue) **''Plato's Laws'' -> Laws (Plato) **''Epinomis'' (2) -> Epinomis (dialogue) **''Letters'' ((1) for some) -> Letters (Plato) ''Remaining works (most of them considered spurious already in antiquity):'' *''Axiochus'' (2) (OK!) *''Definitions (Plato)'' (2) (OK!) *''Demodocus'' (2) (OK!) *''Epigrams (Plato)'' (OK!) *''Eryxias'' (2) (OK!) *''Halcyon'' (2) (OK?) *''On Justice'' (2) (OK!) *''On Virtue'' (2) (OK!) *''Sisyphus (Plato)'' (2) -> Sisyphus (dialogue) (or treating this work in the Sisyphus article?) --User:Francis Schonken 13:10, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC) ==Translations== I do not recall, or believe, that the Islamic commentators preserved the Greek text of Plato, as the present article says. Citations would be welcome. User:Pmanderson 03:11, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Glaucon== ''' One of Plato's ancestors, Glaucon, was one of the best-known members of the Athenian nobility.''' If he was so famous, who was he? Plato's uncle is only famous for being the link between Plato and Critias; is his brother intended? And neither in an ''ancestor'' in English. User:Pmanderson 19:49, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Poll (picture)== [[Image:Another plato.jpg|thumb|300px|left|Visual interpretation of “Plato’s cave” by Dutch artist Nick Gabrichidze;]] So What do you think of this picture? *As initiator of this, I should repeat my comment: This is vivid and may be helpful. User:Pmanderson 14:40, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) *It's ok for now; we can find better. --User:Goethean ॐ 03:29, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) Notable images of Plato have been produced for thousands of years across the world. We do not need to include one by an artist who wrote an article about himself and got on VfD. User:172 07:42, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) *Shameless self promotion, pics of the artist(?) have been added by himself or suspected sockpuppets on a large number of articles. -- User:Chris 73 User talk:Chris 73 08:49, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) *The picture we need is "School of Athens." This picture is lame. --User:Carlj7 08:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) *Ah, here we go. Let's get a detail from this: --User:Carlj7 08:55, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) School of Athens is a great illustration of Plato himself, but I doubt it can be used as an illustration to the cave allegory, where Nick Gabrichidze's image fits. Basically both can be used, but I beleive some graphical material to help users understand the whole "Plato's cave" concept is neccesary. As a matter of fact we have an idea. The "Platos' cave" needs a seperate article defenetely,it is a seperate issue from Plato himslef. After all cave allegory was later used as a stepstone for many philosophers. May be some one can write "Plato's cave" article, or put a request for contribution(or we will take our time to write it ourselves) And then we move Nick Gabrichidze's painting to illustrate that alllegory, while the images of Plato and his biography will be kept here. So what do you hink? If no one willtake the time to create aseperate "Plato's cave" artickle till weekend w will do then, but none of us has time to write it till Saturday. Thanx for everyone for ideas. Authors 11:51, 21 June UTC Note to 172-wikipedia is not your private resourse. If you donot like the image which isdiscussed please share your opinion here instead of removing the whole content. The requiest for page protection will be filed if you will keep removing teh content without even discussing it with other users. User:Authors 12:51, 21 June UTC :I support the removal of the ''Plato’s cave'' picture – and so it seems do most editors who expressed their opinion above. The image is useless as an illustration for those who are not already familiar with the concept, and it is not a notable illustration, either. Especially given these circumstances, no editor needs to discuss his intent to remove the image further before doing so. User:Rl 11:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) As we wrote the best solution would be to move the image to the "Plato's allegory of the cave". If rl or anybody else will suggest a good image to illustrate cave allegory we will consder the other image as well. Anyway, it would be just polite to let poll run for at least a week and hen deside to keep image here or not. If after a week rough consensus will be against keeping the image here, then we will allow you to remove it, and will not post it back, we promice. If someone wants to engage in editors war instead of waiting a week so compromise can be found, then be my guest. It is true that anyone can delete a content in wikipedia without permission but note that anyone can also add content. We have had a disagreement with 172 about this part as he keeps seeing this additional image here as some visios intent from our side refusng to consider a good faith. Sad isn't it? User:Authors 13 : 44, 21 june UTC If anyone is skilled in a graphics program, a simple diagram could be created. --User:Goethean ॐ 14:31, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) :I inquired with User:Jossifresco in this regard. --User:Goethean ॐ 14:36, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) :I do not think an adequate diagram of the cave would be simple; for one thing, it should represent the third dimension, so the shadows can be two-dimensional. But by all means let us see what someone can come up with. User:Pmanderson 14:39, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::a google image search turned up [http://rivertext.com/images_weil/platoscave.gif this]. --User:Goethean ॐ 15:43, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::Not bad, although it does not show the actual shadows...User:Pmanderson 16:20, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) * I think we should remove the picture. User:Paul August User_talk:Paul August 14:41, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) *(commenting yet again...) I don't mind the picture, but it seems totally improper for the creator of the picture to have inserted it into the article and to be replcing it after it was deleted, regardless of whether the deleter was anonymous or not. It really reeks of self-promotion. --User:Goethean ॐ 15:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) *Why Goetahean? There are tons of people who are running around this resourse deleting parts of the articles they dislike or disagree with-why not to restore the content if you see it neccessary. The user who deleted this image is going around all material assotiated with this particular author which are posted at wikipedia and sistematically deleting them(check Flying dutchman history page,if you want to see adeletion of accurate image, or caucasophobia page andcheck whohad decorated it with tugs). So for us it is a pure illustration of unforchunate obsession which deleting the content created by particular user. We do not know what his motivation might be. Anyway let's focus on image-as we have said if you have something else to offer or if you want to move it at "Cave" page then please do so.But please let's talk about the image and not about the motivation of the people who uploaded or removed it. And guys stop being so obsessed with this sef-promotion fear. Artist is contributing the image to this article, we help him to upload it with his agreement : if you think image is OK, please accept it. If you think that image can be used here than artist should receive at least a moral credit. What is your objection? User:Gabrichidze My personal feeling is that the image is really, really ugly. No one can be blamed for removing it. But anyhow, let's make a Plato's cave page, so that we can put a "Influence on Pop culture" section in and talk about how the Matrix is a total rip off. --User:Carlj7 07:11, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) At 28 I will be removing the image to "Plato's allegory of the cavepage" if he consensus here will be agaist the painting. Please let others have their say and try to avoid the editors war untill then. User:Gabrichidze *Please note that the controversial picture is likely a copyvio, and is under investigation at WP:CP. User:Radiant!User_talk:Radiant!>|<">meta:mergist 10:37, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC) Does the commitment of group of users(radiant,mikalai,chris73) who go around tons of pages icluding ones hey never been before(would it be surrealism, Plato, Polygamy or other) with only one mssion: to remove he material assotiated with one single particlar author look really normal? There is nothing wrong with copyright status for this image, the radiant made it up by his own Please check caucasophobia VfD and alk page to see how this unforchunate war had began. I seriousely doubt good faith. A
I'm currently on a Semi-Wikivacation you could contact me @ xxxvonrichexxx@yahoo.comxxx if it's important. User:Plato User talk: plato ---- User talk: Plato/archive April 2004 User talk: Plato/archive May 2004 User talk: Plato/archive June 2004 User talk: Plato/archive July 2004 User talk: Plato/archive August 2004 User talk: Plato/archive September 2004 User talk: Plato/archive October 2004 User talk: Plato/archive November and December 2004 ---- Hi Nick - this isn't urgent, but before you use your sig anywhere, please correct the HTML. You have a couple of open tags that are affecting the rest of the page now (due to something that used to fix it automatically being turned off). Please add /font tags to stop the colours from running onto the rest of the page. Thanks -- User:Sannse User talk:Sannse 11:40, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Fixed (I hope)--User:Plato User talk: plato 10:37, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Votes for Deletion== Three VfD's are taking place on key Project of Alternative Medicine articles. I need you to vote to KEEP the following. Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/List_of_terms_and_concepts_used_in_alternative_medicine This article is extremely important to our project. Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of miscellaneous topics related to alternative medicine And, vote to REDIRECT the following. Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Philosophy of alternative medicine Please vote in favor of the Project on Alternative Medicine today, before it is too late. :-- User:John Gohde 14:54, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC) ==Bring back quickpolls== I think it's time that Wikipedia:quickpolls be re-evaluated as a solution to short term disputes between users. WP:BBQ --Ryan!">User:Merovingian | Talk">User talk:Merovingian 05:15, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC) Thanks for your support! --Ryan!">User:Merovingian | Talk">User talk:Merovingian 23:38, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC) ==Thank you== Hey Nick, thank you so much for voting for me in my adminship nomination. I very much appreciate your support. Best, User:SlimVirgin 03:51, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC) ==Make the pie higher== As you're a sysop on Lirpedia kould you turn my editing kapabilities on please. I fully understand that the cabal needs to keep kontrol of who kan edit, and I pledge to obey the cabal and of course Lir at all times, but I have signed up and it still appears to me as if all the pages are protekt-ed. You kan always arbitrayt me if I turn out to be a tr011, but I assure you I am not. [http://www.kapitalism.net/wiki/index.php?title=User:Doktor_Pangbourne Comrade Kornelius] 10:59, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Thank you!== Thank you for your support on my RfA! I shall attempt to put the shiny new buttons to good use. User:Mindspillage User talk:Mindspillage 00:58, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Military history of Puerto Rico== It's been a long time! I wrote the article mentioned above and have self-nominated it for Featured article status. Please take a look on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Military history of Puerto Rico and express your opinon. Thank you, User:Marine 69-71 ==Friendly Chat== Hi, I just thought that I would let you know that User:Linuxbeak has nominated me for adminship. I would like to invite you to participate at WP:RFA if you wish to do so. Thank you and take care User:Marine 69-71
la:User:Platosimple:User:Plato ==Comrade Nick== Hello, I am Comrade Nick
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, United States
School: UNLV
Favorite Celebrity: Paris Hilton
My Wikiholic score: 85
"Every man is born as many men and dies as a single one." Martin Heidegger
==Barnstar==
For bravery in editing, Plato is awarded the Star of Anti-McCarthyism.
Wikicookie yum!
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PLATO
PLATO, an apronym for ''Programmed Logic for Automatic Teaching Operation'', was one of the first generalized Computer assisted instruction systems, originally built by the University of Illinois and later taken over by Control Data (CDC), who provided the machines it ran on. PLATO ran for many years at the U of I, but William Norris's plans to make it a major force in the computing world and a keystone of corporate social responsibility failed. Although the project was economically a failure and supplanted by other technologies when it was finally turned off in the 1990s, PLATO nevertheless pioneered key concepts such as online forums and message boards, email, chat rooms, picture languages, instant messaging, remote screen sharing, and multiplayer online games. == Background == Prior to the 1960s, university educations were limited to a tiny minority of the population. But the future trend to much larger enrollment in higher education was already clear in the early 1950s, and the problem of providing for an influx of new students was a serious concern. A number of people proposed that if the computer could increase the capabilities of the factory via automation, then surely it could do the same for education. In 1957 the Soviet Union launched Sputnik I, and the United States suddenly felt a collective sense of educational inferiority. The result was massive spending on science and engineering education; computer-based education along with it. In 1958 the US Air Force's Office of Scientific Research held a conference on the topic at the University of Pennsylvania, and a number of groups --notably IBM -- presented studies on the topic. == PLATOs birth == Chalmers Sherwin, a physicist at the University of Illinois, suggested a computerized learning system to William Everett, Dean of the College of Engineering. Everett recommended that Daniel Alpert, another physicist, convene a meeting on the topic that included engineers, educators, mathematicians, and psychologists. After several weeks of meetings the group was unable to suggest a single design for such a system. Alpert was unhappy with the results, but before announcing their failure he mentioned the meetings to a lab assistant, Donald Bitzer. Bitzer claimed that he had already been thinking about the problem, and suggested that he could build a demonstration system. Donald Bitzer, regarded as the "father of PLATO", succeeded largely due to his rejection of "modern" educational thinking. Returning to a basic drill-based system, his team improved on existing systems by allowing students to bypass lessons they already understood. Their first system, PLATO I first ran on the locally-built ILLIAC I computer in 1960. It included a TV for display and a special keyboard to navigate the system's menus. In 1961 they introduced PLATO II, which ran two users at once. Convinced of the value of the project, the PLATO system entered a major redesign between 1963 and 1966. The new PLATO III allowed "anyone" to design new lesson modules using their TUTOR language, brainchild of Paul Tenczar. Built on a CDC 1604 which had been given to them for free by William Norris, PLATO III could run up to 20 lessons at once, and was used by a number of local facilities in Urbana-Champaign that could be attached to the system with their custom terminals. == NSF involvement == PLATO I, II and III had been funded by small grants from a combined Army-Navy-Air Force funding pool, but by the time PLATO III was in operation everyone involved was convinced it was worthwhile to scale up the project. Accordingly, in 1967 the National Science Foundation granted the team steady funding, allowing Bitzer to set up the ''Computer-based Education Research Laboratory'' (CERL) at the university. In 1972 a new system named PLATO IV was ready for operation. The PLATO IV terminal was a major innovation. It included Bitzer's Plasma display invention which incorporated both memory and bitmapped graphics into one display. This Plasma display included fast vector line drawing capability and ran at 1260 baud, rendering 180 characters per second. The PLATO IV display also included a Touch panel allowing students to answer questions by touching anywhere on the screen, and a Slide projector that could display microfiche slides from behind the plasma panel. Early in 1972, researchers from Xerox PARC were given a tour of the PLATO system at the University of Illinois. At this time they were shown parts of the system such as the Show Display application generator for pictures on PLATO (later translated into a "Doodle" program at PARC, an ancestor of Apple's QuickDraw), and the Charset Editor (which edited downloadable bit maps, an ancestor of MacPaint), and the Term Talk and Monitor Mode communications program. Many of the new technologies they saw were adopted and improved upon when these researchers returned to Palo Alto, CA. By 1975 the PLATO System served almost 150 locations from a donated CDC 6600, including not only the users of the PLATO III system, but a number of grammar schools, high-schools and various colleges and universities. PLATO IV offered graphics and animation in addition to basic text-based services, and included a messaging service that allowed TUTOR programs to send data between various users. This later service was used both for chat-type programs, as well as the first multi-user flight simulator. With the introduction of PLATO IV, Bitzer declared general success, claiming that the goal of generalized computer instruction was now available to all. However the terminals were very expensive, supporting 512x512 resolution overlayed on a powered color microfiche system for "background graphics" that changed slides with compressed air. Invariably the air tank ran out and the classroom would be rendered inoperable. As a generalized system PLATO would likely need to be scaled down for cost reasons alone. == The CDC years == As PLATO IV reached production quality, William Norris became increasingly interested in it as a potential product. His interest was two-fold. From a strict business perspective, he was evolving Control Data into a service based company instead of a hardware one, and was increasingly convinced that computer-base education would become a major market in the future. At the same time, Norris was upset by the unrest of the late 1960s, and felt that much of it was due to social inequalities that needed to be addressed. PLATO offered a solution by providing higher education to segments of the population that would otherwise never be able to afford university. Norris provided CERL with machines to develop their system on in the late 1960s. In 1971 he set up a new division within CDC to develop PLATO "courseware", and eventually many of CDC's own initial training and technical manuals ran on it. In 1974 PLATO was running on in-house machines at CDC headquarters in Minneapolis, and in 1976 they purchased the commercial rights in exchange for a new CDC Cyber machine. CDC announced the acquisition soon after, claiming that by 1985 50% of the company's income would be related to PLATO services. Through the 1970s CDC tirelessly promoted PLATO, both as a commercial tool and one for re-training unemployed workers in new fields. Norris refused to give up on the system, and invested in several non-mainsteam courses, including a crop-information system for farmers, and various courses for inner-city youth. CDC even went as far as to place PLATO terminals in some shareholder's houses, to demonstrate the concept of the system. In the early 1980s CDC started heavily advertizing the service, apparently due to increasing internal dissent over the now $600 million project, taking out print and even radio ads promoting it as a general tool. ''The Minneapolis Tribune'' was unconvinced by their ad copy and started an investigation of the claims. In the end they concluded that while it was not proven to be a better education system, everyone using it nevertheless enjoyed it at least. An official evaluation by an external testing agency ended with roughly the same conclusions, suggesting that everyone enjoyed using it, but it was essentially equal to an average human teacher in terms of student advancement. Of course a computerized system equal to a human should have been a major achievement, the very concept that the early pioneers in CBT were aiming for. A computer could serve all the students in a school for the cost of maintaining it, and wouldn't go on strike. However CDC charged $50 an hour for access to their data center, in order to recoup some of their development costs, making it considerably more expensive than a human on a per-student basis. PLATO was therefore a failure in any real sense, although it did find some use in large companies who didn't want to staff up their teaching departments. An attempt to mass-market the PLATO system was introduced in 1980 as Micro-PLATO, which ran the basic TUTOR system on various home computers. Versions were built for the Texas Instruments TI-99/4A, Atari 8-bit family, S-100 bus and (later) IBM PC. Micro-PLATO could be used stand-alone for normal courses, or could attach to a CDC data center for multiuser programs. To make the later affordable, CDC introduced the Homelink service for $5 an hour. In 1986 Norris stepped down as CEO, and the PLATO service was slowly killed off. He tirelessly supported it to the end, announcing that it would be only a few years before it represented a major source of income for CDC as late as 1984. Nevertheless he later claimed that Micro-PLATO was one of the reasons PLATO got off-track. They had started on the TI-99/4A, but then TI pulled the plug and they moved to other systems like the Atari, who soon did the same. He felt that it was a waste of time anyway, as the system's value was in its online nature, which Micro-PLATO lacked (at least to start). Bitzer was more forthright about CDC's failure, blaming their corporate culture for the problems. He noted that development of the courseware was averaging $300,000 a module, many times what the CERL was paying for similar products. This meant that CDC had to charge high prices in order to recoup their costs, prices that made the system unattractive. The reason, he suggested, for these high prices was that CDC had set up a division that had to keep itself profitable via courseware development, forcing them to raise the prices in order to keep their headcount up during slow periods. == PLATO in South Africa == During the period when CDC was marketing PLATO, the system began to be used internationally. South Africa was one of the biggest users of PLATO in the early 1980s. ESCOM, the South African electrical power company had a large CDC mainframe at Vanderbilt Park in the northwest suburbs of Johannesburg. Mainly this computer was used for management and data processing tasks related to power generation and distribution, but it also ran the PLATO software. The largest PLATO installation in South Africa during the early 1980s was at the University of the Western Cape, which served a Black population, and at one time had hundreds of PLATO IV terminals all connected by leased data lines back to Johannesburg. There were several other installations at educational institutions in South Africa, among them Madadeni College in the Madadeni township just outside of Newcastle, South Africa. This was perhaps the most unusual PLATO installation anywhere. Madadeni had about 1,000 students, all of them black and 99.5% of Zulu ancestry. The college was one of 10 teacher preparation institutions in kwaZulu, most of them much smaller. In many ways Madadeni was very primitive. None of the classrooms had electricity and there was only one telephone for the whole college, which one had to crank for several minutes before an operator might come on the line. So an air-conditioned, carpeted room with 16 computer terminals was a stark contrast to the rest of the college. At times the only way a person could communicate with the outside world was through PLATO term-talk. For many of the Madadeni students, most of whom came from very rural areas, the PLATO terminal was the first time they encountered any kind of electronic technology. (Many of the first year students had never seen a flush toilet before.) There initially was skepticism that these technologically illiterate students could effectively use PLATO, but those concerns were not borne out. Within an hour or less most students were using the system proficiently, mostly to learn math and science skills, although a lesson that taught keyboarding skills was one of the most popular. A few students even used on-line resources to learn TUTOR, the PLATO programming language, and a few wrote lessons on the system in the Zulu language. PLATO was also used fairly extensively in South Africa for industrial training. ESCOM successfully used PLM (PLATO learning management) and simulations to train power plant operators, South African Airways (SAA) used PLATO simulations for cabin attendant training, and there were a number of other large companies, as well, that were exploring the use of PLATO. The South African subsidiary of CDC invested heavily in the development of an entire secondary school curriculum (SASSC) on PLATO, but unfortunately as the curriculum was nearing the final stages of completion, CDC began to falter in South Africa, partly because of financial problems back home, partly because of growing opposition in the United States to doing business in South Africa, and partly due to the rapidly evolving microcomputer, a paradigm shift that CDC failed to recognize. == The PLATO Online Community == Although PLATO was designed for computer-based education, many consider its most enduring legacy to be the online community spawned by its communication features. PLATO Notes, introduced in 1973, was among the world's first online message boards, and years later became the direct progenitor of Lotus Notes. By 1976, PLATO had sprouted a variety of novel tools for online communication, including Personal Notes (email), Talkomatic (chat rooms), and Term-Talk (instant messaging and remote screen sharing). PLATO's architecture also made it an ideal platform for online gaming. Many extremely popular games were developed on PLATO during the 1970s and 1980s, such as Empire (a massively multiplayer game based on Star Trek), Airfight (a precursor to Microsoft Flight Simulator), the original Freecell, and several "dungeons and dragons" games that presaged MUDs and MOOs as well as popular shoot-em-up games like Doom and Quake. These communication tools and games formed the basis for a thriving online community of thousands of PLATO users, which lasted for well over twenty years. The history of this community has been documented in much greater detail in David Woolley's article "[http://thinkofit.com/plato/dwplato.htm PLATO: The Emergence of Online Community]." In August of 2004, a version of PLATO (see [http://www.cyber1.org/index.htm Cyber1.org]) from the 1980-1985 period was resurrected online and word of its reincarnation spread rapidly. Within 6 months by word of mouth more than 500 former users have signed up to use this system. Many of the students who used PLATO in the 1970's and 1980's feel a special social bond with the Community of Users who came together using the powerful communications tools on PLATO (talk programs, records systems, and notes files.) The original PLATO IV system had more than 12,000 contact hours of courseware, much of it developed by college professors for higher education. The knowledged embedded in this computer system is immense, even today. == Other versions == CDC eventually sold some of the rights to PLATO to the newly-formed The Roach Organization in 1989. In 2000 TRO changed their name to [http://www.plato.com/ PLATO Learning] and continue to sell and service PLATO courseware running on PC's. CDC continued development of the basic system under the name Cybis after selling the name to Roach, in order to service their larger commercial customers. The University of Illinois also continued development of PLATO, eventually setting up a commercial on-line service called NovaNET in partnership with University Communications. CERL was closed in 1994, with the maintenance of the PLATO code passing to UCI. UCI was later renamed NovaNET Learning, which was bought by National Computer Systems. Shortly after that, NCS was bought by Pearson, and after several name changes now operates as Pearson Digital Learning. CDC, meanwhile, sold off their mainframe Cybis business to University Online, which was a descendant of IMSATT. UOL was later renamed to VCampus. With one remaining mainframe system still running for the FAA, VCampus granted non-commercial rights to run a Cybis system to a small group of people at Cyber1, operating on a Cyber emulator running NOS, CDC's operating system. This followed limited rights to run NOS being granted to Symantec, which inherited the remainder of CDC's mainframe business. The Cyber1 system offers free access to the system in an attempt to re-build the original PLATO communities that grew up at CERL and on CDC systems in the 1980's. PLATO courseware was fairly extensive, covering a full range of high-school and college courses, as well as topics such as reading skills, family planning, Lamaze training and home budgeting. However the most popular "courseware" remained their multi-user games and computer role playing games such as ''dnd (computer game)'', although it appears CDC was uninterested in this market. As the value of a CDC-based solution disappeared in the 1980s, interested educators ported the engine first to the IBM PC, and later to web-based systems. Today, however, even the web-based versions appear to have disappeared. == Innovation == *Plasma display, circa 1964, by Donald Bitzer for PLATO III. *Touch Panel, circa 1964, by Donald Bitzer for PLATO III. *Show Display Mode, a graphics application generator for TUTOR software, precursor to Apple's QuickDraw picture language editor. *Charset Editor, an early version of MacPaint for drawing bitmapped pictures stored in downloadable fonts. *Airfight, circa 1972, a 3-D flight simulator written for PLATO by Brand Fortner; this probably inspired UIUC student Bruce Artwick to start Sublogic which was acquired and later became Microsoft Flight Simulator. *[http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~netrek/history/History.html Empire], a 30 person inter-terminal 2-D real-time space simulation, circa 1974. *Monitor Mode on PLATO, circa 1975, used by instructors to help students, precursor of Timbuktu screen-sharing software. *Notes, the first general-purpose computer message board, and precursor to Unix Newsgroups and Lotus Notes, 1973. *Talkomatic, a real-time chat room (text-based), 1974 *Term-Talk, precursor to instant messaging, circa 1974 *Panzer, circa 1977, a 3-D tank simulation that spawned Atari's Battlezone game. *Think15, circa 1977, 2-D outdoor wilderness quest simulation, like Trek with monsters, trees, treasures. *Avatar (computer game), circa 1978, a 2.5-D Multi-User Dungeon (MUD), a precursor to EverQuest. *Freecell, circa 1978 by Paul Alfille, which probably spawned the Windows version. ==External links== :[http://thinkofit.com/plato/dwplato.htm PLATO: The Emergence of Online Community] :[http://www.platopeople.com/index.html PLATO People] :[http://www.cbi.umn.edu/iterations/vanmeer.html#I PLATO: From Computer-Based Education to Corporate Social Responsibility] :[http://www.atarimagazines.com/v3n3/platorising.html PLATO RISING - Online learning for Atarians] :[http://www.cyber1.org/index.htm Cyber1.org : An online reincarnation of the PLATO system, circa 1980.]
PLATO
PLATO is a backronym, not an apronym. The words were invented to fit the name they had already come up with. Last section references "interested educators ported the engine"; if you're referring to the various variants of the Tutor language, that isn't exactly porting "the engine". There were various offshoots, such as GIST's USE (?), Authorware, and CMU's version of Tutor (written by Bruce Sherwood and Dave Andersen, who had been system programmers at CERL PLATO), but PLATO itself is written in CDC assembly language - porting it has always been judged to be too difficult, except to run it on an emulator. The only real "ports" of PLATO are NovaNET (running on a Cyber emulator on a DEC Alpha), an internal product never released, internally called NovaNET-in-a-Can, and the Cybis system cloned from the FAA system running on a (different) Cyber emulator at cyber1.org. Sorry, I'm sort of new to wikipedia, not sure if this is the right way to bring up issues like this. I suppose I should create an account. Contact me at sep@shout.net if you want. == Fascinating Article == This is a very well-done article on an intriguing topic. I need to learn more about computer history. User:Superm401 | User_talk:Superm401 16:35, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
Plato
[[Image:Delphi Platon statue 1.jpg|thumb|Statue of a philosopher, presumely Plato, in Delphi.]] Plato (Greek language: Πλάτων ''Plátōn'') (c. May 21? 427 BC – c. 347 BC) was an immensely influential Hellenic civilization philosopher, student of Socrates, teacher of Aristotle, writer, and founder of the Academy in Athens. In countries speaking Arabic, Turkish or Persian, he is called Eflatun, which means a spring (water) of water, and, metaphorically, of knowledge. Plato lectured extensively at the Academy but he also wrote on many philosophical issues. The most important writings of Plato are his dialogues; although a handful of epigrams also survive, and some letters have come down to us under his name. All the known dialogues of Plato survive; some of the dialogues which the Greeks ascribed to him are considered by the consensus of scholars to be either suspect (e.g., ''First Alcibiades (dialogue)'', ''Clitophon (dialogue)'') or probably spurious (such as ''Demodocus (dialogue)'', or the ''Second Alcibiades (dialogue)''). Socrates is often a character in the dialogues of Plato. It is usually disputed how much of the content and argument of any given dialogue is Socrates' point of view, and how much of it Plato's. [[Image:Plato.png|thumb|"The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato." -- Alfred North Whitehead, Process and Reality, 1929]] ==Biography== Plato was born in Athens, into a moderately well-to-do aristocratic family. His father was named Ariston and his mother Perictione. His family claimed descent from the ancient King of Athens; and he was related (there is disagreement exactly how) to the prominent politician Critias. Plato's own real name was "Aristocles"; however, his nickname, Plato, originated from wrestling. Since "Plato" means ''broad'', it probably refers either to his physical appearance or to his wrestling stance or style. Plato became a pupil of Socrates in his youth, and — at least according to his personal account — he attended his master's trial, though not his execution. Unlike Socrates, Plato wrote down his philosophical views and left a considerable number of manuscripts (see below). He was deeply affected by the city's treatment of Socrates and much of his early work records his memories of his teacher. It is suggested that much of his ethical writing is in pursuit of a society where similar injustices could not occur. Plato was also deeply influenced by the Pythagoreans, whose notions of numerical harmony have clear echoes in Plato's notion of the Forms (sometimes thus capitalized; see below); by Anaxagoras, who taught Socrates and who held that the mind or reason pervades everything; and by Parmenides, who argued the unity of all things and was perhaps influential in Plato's conception of the Soul. Plato founded one of the earliest known organized schools in Western civilization when he was 40 years old on a plot of land in the Grove of Academe. The Academy was "a large enclosure of ground which was once the property of a citizen at Athens named Academus... some however say that it received its name from an ancient hero." (Robinson, Arch. Graec. I i 16) and it operated until it was closed by Justinian I of Byzantium in AD 529. Many intellectuals were schooled here, the most prominent being Aristotle. "Every man should expend his chief thought and attention on the consideration of his first principles: are they or are they not rightly laid down? and when he has sifted them, all the rest will follow." -Plato, Cratylus == Work == ===Themes=== In Plato's writings one finds debates concerning the best possible form of government, featuring adherents of aristocracy, democracy, monarchy, and others. A central theme is the one between nature and convention, concerning the role of heredity and environment in human intelligence and personality long before the modern "nature versus nurture" debate began in the time of Thomas Hobbes and John Locke, with its modern continuation in such controversial works as ''The Mismeasure of Man'' and ''The Bell Curve''. Another key distinction and theme in the Platonic corpus is that between knowledge and opinion, which foreshadow modern debates between David Hume and Immanuel Kant, and has been taken up by postmodernists and their opponents, more commonly as the distinction between the 'objective' and the 'subjective'. Even the story of the lost city or continent of Atlantis came to us as an illustrative story told by Plato in his ''Timaeus'' and ''Critias''. ===Form=== Plato wrote mainly in the form of dialogues. In the early ones several characters discuss a topic by asking questions of one another. Socrates figures prominently and a lively, more disorganized form of elenchos/dialectic is perceived; these are called the Socratic Dialogues. But the qualities of the dialogues changed a great deal over the course of Plato's life. It is generally agreed that Plato's earlier works are more closely based on Socrates' thoughts, whereas his later writing increasingly breaks away from the views of his former teacher. In the middle dialogues, Socrates becomes a mouthpiece for Plato's own philosophy, and the question-and-answer style is more ''pro forma'': the main figure represents Plato and the minor characters have little to say except "yes"; "of course" and "very true". The later dialogues read more like treatises, and Socrates is often absent or quiet. It is assumed that the later dialogues were written entirely by Plato, while some of the early dialogues could be transcripts of Socrates' own dialogues. The question which, if any, of the dialogues are truly socratic is called the Socratic problem. The ostensible ''mise-en-scene'' of a dialogue distances both Plato and a given reader from the philosophy being discussed; one can choose between at least two options of perception: either to participate in the dialogues, in the ideas being discussed, or choose to see the content as expressive of the personalities contained within the work. The dialogue format also allows Plato to put unpopular opinions in the mouth of unsympathetic characters, e.g. Thrasymachus in ''Republic (Plato)''. == Plato's Metaphysics: Platonism, or realism == One of Plato's legacies, and perhaps his greatest, was his dualistic metaphysics, often called (in metaphysics) Platonism or (Exaggerated) Realism. Plato's metaphysics divides the world into two distinct aspects: the intelligible world of "forms" and the perceptual world we see around us. He saw the perceptual world, and the things in it, as imperfect copies of the intelligible ''forms'' or ''ideas''. These forms are unchangeable and perfect, and are only comprehensible by the use of the intellect or understanding (i.e., a capacity of the mind that does not include sense-perception or imagination).This division can be found before Plato in Zoroaster philosophy (6th century BC), which is called Minu (intelligence) and Giti (perceptual) worlds, as well as the concept of an ideal state which Zoroaster called Shahrivar (an ideal city). In the ''Republic'' Books VI and VII, Plato uses a number of metaphors to explain his metaphysical views: the metaphor of Plato's metaphor of the sun, the well-known Plato's allegory of the cave, and most explicitly, the divided line of Plato. Taken together, these metaphors convey a complex and, in places, difficult theory: there is something called The Form of the Good (often interpreted as Plato's God), which is the ultimate object of knowledge and which as it were sheds light on all the other forms (i.e., universals: abstract kinds and attributes) and from which all other forms "emanate." The Form of the Good does this in somewhat the same way as the sun sheds light on or makes visible and "generates" things in the perceptual world. (See Plato's metaphor of the sun.) In the perceptual world the particular objects we see around us bear only a dim resemblance to the more ultimately real forms of Plato's intelligible world: it is as if we are seeing shadows of cut-out shapes on the walls of a cave, which are mere representations of the reality outside the cave, illuminated by the sun. (See Plato's allegory of the cave.) We can imagine everything in the universe represented on a line of increasing reality; it is divided once in the middle, and then once again in each of the resulting parts. The first division represents that between the intelligible and the perceptual worlds. Then there is a ''corresponding'' division in each of these worlds: the segment representing the perceptual world is divided into segments representing "real things" on the one hand, and shadows, reflections, and representations on the other. Similarly, the segment representing the intelligible world is divided into segments representing first principles and most general forms, on the one hand, and more derivative, "reflected" forms, on the other. (See the divided line of Plato.) The form of government derived from this philosophy turns out to be one of a rigidly fixed hierarchy of hereditary classes, in which the arts are mostly suppressed for the good of the state, the size of the city and its social classes is determined by mathematical formula, and eugenic measures are applied secretly by rigging the lotteries in which the right to reproduce is allocated. The tightness of connection of such government to the lofty and original philosophy in the book has been debated. Plato's metaphysics, and particularly the dualism between the intelligible and the perceptual, would inspire later Neoplatonism thinkers (see Plotinus and Gnosticism) and other metaphysical realists. For more on Platonic realism in general, see Platonic realism and the Forms. Plato also had some influential opinions on the nature of knowledge and learning which he propounded in the Meno (Plato), which began with the question of whether virtue can be taught, and proceeded to expound the concepts of recollection, learning as the discovery of pre-existing knowledge, and right opinion, opinions which are correct but have no clear justification (see Platonic epistemology). == A short history of Platonic scholarship == Plato's thought is often compared with that of his most famous student, Aristotle, whose reputation during the western Middle Ages so completely eclipsed that of Plato that the Scholastic philosophers referred to Aristotle as "the Philosopher." However, in the Byzantine Empire the study of Plato continued. The scholastic philosophers of the Middle Ages did not have access to the works of Plato - nor the Greek to read them. Plato's original writings were essentially lost to western civilization until they were brought from Constantinople in the century before its fall. What the mediaevals knew of Plato was translations into Latin from the translations into Arabic by Persian and Arab scholars. These scholars not only translated the texts of the ancients, but expanded them by writing extensive commentaries and interpretations on Plato's and Aristotle's works (see Al-Farabi, Avicenna, Averroes). Only in the Renaissance, with the general resurgence of interest in classical civilization, did knowledge of Plato's philosophy become more widespread again in the West. Many of the greatest early modern scientists and artists who broke with Scholasticism and fostered the flowering of the Renaissance, with the support of the Plato-inspired Lorenzo de Medici, saw Plato's philosophy as the basis for progress in the arts and sciences. By the 19th century Plato's reputation was restored and at least on par with Aristotle's. Notable Western philosophers have continued to examine Plato's work since that time, diverging from traditional academic approaches with their own philosophy as a basis. Nietzsche attacked Plato's moral and political theories, Heidegger expounded on Plato's obfuscation of ''Being'', and Karl Popper in ''The Open Society and Its Enemies'' (1945), argued that Plato's proposal for a government system in the dialogue ''Republic (Plato)'' was prototypically totalitarian. While many critics reject such readings on a variety of grounds, they remain widely discussed. == Bibliography == ''Note: Stephanus pagination is traditionally used to uniquely identify specific references to the text.'' Below is a list of works by Plato, marked (1) if scholars don't generally agree that Plato is the author, and (2) if scholars generally agree that Plato is ''not'' the author of the work. Those works ascribed to Plato that have a separate wikipedia article, can be found in :Category:Dialogues of Plato ''Note: the naming conventions regarding Wikipedia articles on Plato's texts are currently under revision'' ''See: Category Talk:Dialogues of Plato'' ====Tetralogies==== The works are traditionally arranged according to tetralogy ascribed to an ancient scholar and court astrologer to Tiberius named Thrasyllus by Diogenes Laertius: *I. ''Euthyphro'', ''Apology (Plato)'', ''Crito'', ''Phaedo (Plato)'' *II. ''Cratylus (Plato)'', ''Theaetetus (Plato)'', ''Sophist (Plato)'', ''Statesman (Plato)'' *III. ''Parmenides (Plato)'', ''Philebus (Plato)'', ''Symposium (Plato)'', ''Phaedrus (Plato)'' *IV. ''First Alcibiades (dialogue)'' (1), ''Second Alcibiades (dialogue)'' (2), ''Hipparchus (dialogue)'' (2), ''Rival Lovers (dialogue)'' (2) *V. ''Theages (dialogue)'' (2), ''Charmides (Plato)'', ''Laches (Plato)'', ''Lysis (Plato)'' *VI. ''Euthydemus (Plato)'', ''Protagoras (Plato)'', ''Gorgias (dialogue)'', ''Meno (Plato)'' *VII. ''Greater Hippias (dialogue)'' (1), ''Lesser Hippias (Plato)'', ''Ion (Plato)'', ''Menexenus (Plato)'' *VIII. ''Clitophon (dialogue)'' (1), ''Republic (Plato)'', ''Timaeus (Plato)'', ''Critias (Plato)'' *IX. ''Minos (dialogue)'' (2), ''Laws (Plato)'', ''Epinomis (dialogue)'' (2), ''Letters (Plato)'' (1) ====Other==== The remaining works were transmitted under Plato's name, but were considered spurious in antiquity: *''Axiochus (dialogue)'' (2), ''Definitions (Plato)'' (2), ''Demodocus (dialogue)'' (2), ''Epigrams (Plato)'', ''Eryxias (dialogue)'' (2), ''Halcyon (dialogue)'' (2), ''On Justice'' (2), ''On Virtue'' (2), ''Sisyphus (dialogue)'' (2) ==References== *Jackson, Roy (2001). ''Plato: A Beginner's Guide''. London:Hoder & Stroughton. ISBN 0-340-80385-1. *''The Collected Dialogues of Plato'' (Bollingen Series LXXI), edited by Edith Hamilton and Huntington Cairns, (1961) ISBN 0691097186 *''Plato: Complete Works'', edited by John M. Cooper and D. S. Hutchinson, (1997) ISBN 0872203492 *Oxford University Press publishes scholarly editions of Plato's Greek texts in the ''Oxford Classical Texts'' series, and some translations in the ''Clarendon Plato Series''. *Harvard University Press publishes the hardbound series ''Loeb_Classical_Library#Plato'', containing Plato's works in Greek, with English translations on facing pages. == See also == * Platonism * Neoplatonism * List_of_publications_in_philosophy#Western philosophy ==External links== * [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/authrec?fk_authors=93 Works by Plato] at Project Gutenberg * [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/authrec?fk_authors=688 Spurious and doubtful works] at Project Gutenberg * *[http://www.philosophicalsociety.com/Archives/Plato%20And%20The%20Theory%20Of%20Forms.htm "Plato & The Theory of Forms," at Philosophical Society.com] *Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: **[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato/ Plato] **[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-ethics/ Plato's Ethics] **[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-friendship/ Friendship and Eros] **[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-metaphysics/ Middle Period Metaphysics and Epistemology] **[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-utopia/ Plato on Utopia] **[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-rhetoric/ Rhetoric and Poetry] 427 BC births 347 BC deaths Ancient Greek philosophers Ancient Athenians Platonism bn:প্লেটো la:Plato ms:Plato nds:Platon simple:Plato th:เพลโต
Plato
==Old talk (up to July 2004)== ===I=== The original title of the book known IN ENGLISH as The Republic has nothing to do with elective government. The Greek word was ''Politeia,'' a word that translates fairly well as "Regime" or "sytem of government." Don't go all un-neutral on the book in the entry. I don't like Plato's ideal state either, but the title "Republic" is Cicero's, I think. --MichaelTinkler : Not sure what the old text to which this refers was like. But if anyone wants to dispute the accuracy of my characterization of the political system in the so-caleed Republic, please do. User:Dandrake 01:58 18 Jul 2003 (UTC) I see no reason to have "Complete works of Plato" as a separate topic; it should be a subpage. If the actual works are entered into the Wikipedia later, they may also be subpages of :Plato. --:AV The should be ''against'' webpages. If we were to have made every topic that ''could'' be made a subtopic of a main topic, we'd have a disaster on our hands. Don't you think that it's interesting that most of the Wikipedia old hands are solidly against subpages? You're new here, Anatoly--you probably don't understand entirely, yet. --:LMS ===II=== More arguments on why "Complete works" should be a subpage: Larry, both in :Naming conventions and in your essay on subpages, the only reason advanced against subpages is that the topic of the subpage may be of independent interest rather than totally subsumed within the topic of the page. :I do not have just one reason. I have three essays that address the issues surrounding subpages. :I'm soon going to start pushing hard to eliminate subpages ''entirely.'' I'm going to ask that they be completely eliminated from the PHP wiki. Now, in this particular case, I feel strongly that you're pushing it too far. What else do you need "Complete works of Plato" for if not in the context of Plato?? :The context of "complete works of philosophers." The context of works, generally. The context of philosophical texts. Etc. Just about the only conceivable alternative is that of some general "Complete works of various authors" page with links to individual pages. But, first, the idea is rather ridiculous anyway, and, secondly, there's nothing stopping us from linking to subpages from outside the main page in case it's needed. :Why does there have to be a page that links to the complete works of all authors? I'm not sure what the use of that would be, actually. OTOH, I believe that you fail to consider the benefit of proper subpaging. :I think you don't sufficiently appreciate why they're so ''evil.'' It's not just about hierarchies, though it's about that; it's also about reducing the clutter in the main namespace, :This is not a problem, though. The sheer number of pages is going to be identical. and reducing the number of ad hoc naming schemes. When you introduce something like "Complete works of Plato" as a name of an encyclopaedia topic, the readers will assume that it's a part of a general scheme, "Complete works of X" - but if there's only one or a few topic of this kind, then you're cluttering the conceptual field of the main namespace. :I don't see how using subpages avoids the same "problem." I don't quite understand how it's a problem in the first place, anyway. What this means is that you give the readers another concept of how topics might be named (not just "X" or "History of X" or "the problem of X" or whatever, but now also "Complete works of X"), but the concept isn't really put to good use. :Why not? What's wrong with that concept? :Actually, I do think "X's works" would be better, but we don't have the use of apostrophes yet. :Plato's works is where this information should be filed. Finally, subpaging in such cases naturally helps establish better linking. This page already had a backlink to :Plato; I removed it when I moved it to a subpage and you failed to restore it when moving it back. But ideally it '''shouldn't''' have a link to :Plato because the connection to Plato is entirely obvious from the title itself. The backlink adds no useful information whatsoever, forms no new associations or connections. When it's moved to a subpage, the arrangement suddenly becomes much better: the backlink is now part of the general linkbar, an automatic feature of the subpage mechanism, and it draws no unnecessary attention of a reader. When it's needed, it's there; where it's not needed (in the body of the article), it's not. :This is an advantage, but it is an extremely weak one. One could make the same argument with regard to ''any'' plausible parent page-subpage pairing; but that by itself isn't a sufficient reason to make the subpage a subpage of the parent page. To be consistent, we would have to start making zillions of subpages of all sorts of topics, with no rhyme or reason, and setting up all sorts of conceptual relations and hierarchies that limit how we think and write about various topics. Besides, subpage titles are just plain ugly and cumbersome to deal with when linking to them from outside the main page-subpage article grouping. (As I've explained in my essays.) I await with interest your response to these points. --:AV :Keep working on the project for a few months and ''then'' see how you feel about subpages. I'm going to start an article about this in :Wikipedia commentary--I'm going to raise the issue that we should entirely eliminate subpages from the new PHP wiki code, and convert :foo/bar page titles in the present wiki to :foo--bar in the new wiki. --:LMS ===III=== I'm not Larry, but I'll point out that the page already had notes about textual history (by or not by Plato), a subject worth a page. --MichaelTinkler :About textual history of Plato's works, not textual history as a separate subject. And sure, it's worth a page, only there's no reason for this page not to be a subpage -- :AV ::Again, you assume that the presumption should be in favor of subpages, which it definitely shouldn't be. --LMS ===V=== The following appears to be an idiosyncratic polemic on the part of someone who is not familiar with our NPOV policy. I'll salvage from it what I can that is consistent with the policy, but a lot of it appears to me to be little more than bald statement of opinion with not a lot of useful informational content. The notion that ''Aristotle'' is responsible for the ignorance of Plato's works for so long strikes me as extremely implausible on its face and certainly not something that should be stated so (ironically) dogmatically in an encyclopedia article. --User:Larry Sanger :This is unfortunate since it has long been recognized that Aristotle's criticisms of his teacher, Plato, are based on an extremely faulty understanding and gross misrepresentation of Plato's thought, involving a complete mischaracterization of Plato's positions on virtually all of the critical issues central to his philosophy. Whether this betrayal of his teacher, Plato, was due to simple jealousy or a pathological desire to diminish Plato's reputation in order to elevate his own, this represents a severe stain on the reputation of Aristotle. As an indirect result of Aristotle's influence, it might be argued, Plato's work was lost to western civilization for many centuries. :Aristotle's philosophy has often been regarded as the basis of all subsequent philosophical dogmatism and as the source of the decline (and even eradication) of rational inquiry particularly during the Dark Ages. This is paradoxical since Aristotle is popularly (though, it might be argued, incorrectly) linked with an empirical approach to science. Believing as he did that scientific issues--from the laws of the universe to the functions of animals--could be settled by abstract logical reasoning rather than careful study and direct observation, and that all possible knowledge of the universe and man had already been attained leaving nothing fundamentally new for scientific or psychological or artistic discovery, Aristotle's philosophy lent itself to a variety of dogmatic systems from the ideas of the Scholastics in the Middle Ages to the dogmatic attitude of the followers of Ayn Rand today who believe that Aristotle's principles constitute the unquestionable basis of all philosophical reasoning and inquiry. :Aristotle's unrelenting dogmatism is entirely in contrast to the most fundamental principles of Plato and his beloved teacher Socrates, both of whom taught that man is in a state of almost complete ignorance concerning both natural phenomena and transcendent truths due to a congenital near-blindness to truth and knowledge. Above all, Plato affirmed Socrates’ teaching that the wisest man is the one who is most aware of his own ignorance. If we are ignorant and think that we have knowledge, this belief constitutes the worst form of sickness to which the human mind is subject. On the other hand, if we are ignorant, and also aware of our ignorance, this tends to create in us a profound desire to discover what we do not know--however limited our capacities may be. :It was only with the repudiation of Aristotelian scientific, artistic and psychological dogma and authority and the resumption of the outlook of Socrates and Plato who professed ignorance rather than infallible powers for abstract knowledge of nature and reality, that the Renaissance and the development of modern science were made possible. For it required a repudiation of Aristotelian dogmatic principles for the sciences and the arts to free themselves for the discovery of modern scientific laws and empirical methods. Many of the greatest modern scientists (e.g. Galileo) and artists (with the support of the Plato-inspired Lorenzo de Medici) who broke with Scholasticism and fostered the flowering of the Renaissance saw Plato’s philosophy as the basis for progress in the arts and sciences. :One of the characteristics of the Dark Ages was reliance on authority and on scholastic commentaries on writings of Plato and other historically important philosophers, rather than accessing their original works. In fact, Plato’s original writings were essentially lost to western civilization until their reintroduction in the twelfth century through the agency of Arab scholars who had maintained the original Greek texts of the ancients. These were eventually translated into Latin and all of Plato's surviving dialogues are now available in English translation. :In Plato’s writings, many centuries before Copernicus and Galileo, one finds the heliocentric theory of the universe. One finds debates concerning republican and democratic forms of government, long before the founding fathers of America formed their republic. One finds debates concerning the role of heredity and environment in human intelligence and personality long before the publication of “The Bell Curve” or the formation of Human Genome Project or the discovery that schizophrenia has a genetic basis. One finds arguments for the subjectivity--and the objectivity--of human knowledge which foreshadow modern debates between Hume and Kant, or between the postmodernists and their opponents. Plato looks ugly in the picture,I think it should be removed. :For more information on the conflict between Aristotle and Plato and their followers: http://www.platonicforms.com/ ===VI=== I've removed this sentence as it tells me nothing that could not apply to many other historical figures: ''The actual existence of Socrates is still debated, as little direct evidence proves his existence.'' There appears to be some evidence of his existence, but this gives no mention of who might be debating. -User:Wikibob | User talk:Wikibob 20:34, 2004 Apr 26 (UTC) ===VII=== Where in Plato's writings does one find the heliocentric universe? I'd like to find what he actually said about it. None of the other articles that mention the subject attribute the idea to Plato. User:Dandrake 18:58, May 28, 2004 (UTC) :There are allusions to it in the ''Nomoi''. :MWAK--User:217.122.44.226 13:21, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC) Looking through http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/laws.7.vii.html (admittedly without great thoroughness), I find a couple of mentions of the "revolutions of the sun and moon", but no more. As that's not heliocentric, what am I missing? User:Dandrake 00:22, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC) It all starts with a remark from Plutarch, that Plato in his latter days began to regret that he hadn't set the Earth in its appropriate place. A cryptic remark. Predictably philologists have turned Plato's later works upside down in search of any clue to its meaning. Some very ingenious theories have been construed, none of them very cogent. Im my opinion the best of these is based on the ''Nomoi'' (893a e.s.) where Plato propounds the theory that God drives the Kosmos as a wheel is driven by its axis. At first blush this seems to accord with a geocentric model. Further reflection however shows that there is something wrong here: it would mean that the Earth, hardly a blessed place in Plato's view, is either the most direct physical representation of God or the point of His most direct intervention. So, ''if'' Plato is coherent, this centre of the Kosmos cannot be the Earth. It's obvious it isn't the Sun either. The model isn't really heliocentric but ''theocentric''. The Sun moves in circles. Around the Earth? A hierarchy seems to suggest itself. God is in (a single point in?) the centre. The Sun, singled out in the text, moves around God. Even lesser gods (the planets) in their turn move around the Sun (whose solar system thus forms an imitative microcosm), as does the Earth (apparently the body of a very minor, or even corrupted god or alternatively a simple lump of rock hurled about following the principle of 899a). The Moon moves around the Earth. Circles galore. Such a model would have been very attractive to Plato, who saw physical reality as an instance of eternal Laws that were coherent and simple (or elegant). At this time the retrograde motion of the planets must have become an embarrasment - as is shown by Eudoxos tackling the problem. Plato knew Philolaos and must have understood the relevance of a non-geocentric model in this respect: it would "save the phenomena" ''and'' the elegance of natural law of his beloved circles. Also it would have been an elegant explanation of the connection of Venus and Mercury with the Sun, that Plato was well aware of, as shown by the ''Timaios''. So perhaps. Perhaps Plato merely thought that the Earth, though in the centre, turned around its axis (again see 893c), like Herakleides did. This alone would make the movement of the planets much more simple. It would also fix the problem of the movement of the fixed stars. The text conspicuously shows an absence of "spheres" even though the Kosmos is a sphere. The theocentric model above would also need a rotating Earth to explain the apparent rotation of the whole around ''us'' while it in reality revolves around God. Perhaps Plato simply isn't coherent here. It happens to the best. Perhaps Plutarch wanted to suggest the opposite: that Plato in his ''youth'' was a follower of Philolaos' "hestiacentric" model. The theocentric model allows for a hestiacentric interpretation also, with the Sun and all the planets (directly) moving around God. Perhaps Plutarch didn't know what he was talking about and we're all on a wild goose chase. However recent interpretations of his ''De facie quae in orbe lunae apparet'' have hailed him as the Newton of Antiquity so you can't be too careful...;o) MWAK--User:217.122.44.226 14:38, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC) == Famous Platonists == Some scholars have argued that Galileo Galilei was a Platonist, but the idea is far from generally accepted. (Actually, it's wrong, but that's not germane here.) The straight-up claim that G was inspired by P doesn't belong in this article; at least, not without discussion here, or even better on the Galileo Talk page. So it has been removed. User:Dandrake 03:53, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC) :Good; if Galileo is a Platonist, it is in the special mathematical sense of the term. He was expressly opposed to eternity and changelessness as goods; consider the passage about diamonds and potting soil in ''Dialogue on the Tow World Systems''. User:Pmanderson 03:18, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Popper on Plato == Re: "I like my version better" Poppererian scholarship on Plato is just not that significant. Popper's reputation as a political philosopher never really recovered from his ''ad hominem'' assault on Hegel, his ill-informed scholarship on Marx, and his efforts to blame everything bad in the history of politics on Plato. I think we're misinforming people if we give the impression that Popper's attack on Plato is really a major issue in understanding Plato as a political philosopher. Plato as totalitarian is not something Popper started and is an idea most students are introduced to without reference to Popper. Popper was a major figure - if not the major figure - in the philosophy of science. But he is not someone who is taken very seriously in Plato scholarship and has most certainly not "eclipsed" Plato. That would be like making Rush Limbaugh out to be a major American cultural critic. Plato has his opponents. Either there should be a more balanced discussion of them or we should simply refer readers to The Republic. User:Diderot 05:38, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC) : (User:William M. Connolley 08:53, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)) I didn't say Popper had eclipsed Plato. If you can find a better originator for the criticism, please put it in. :: Thomas Thorson (Plato: Totalitarian or Democrat, 1963) points out that this view of Plato had wide circulation in Europe starting the early 30's, particularly in the kinds of socialist and borderline socialist communities that Popper circulated in. For crying out loud, Plato's political critics date back to his own favourite students. Aristotle, who carefully distinguished his notions of moral right from politics and was dead against the unrestricted state power he saw Plato advocating; and Xenophon, who essentially founded economics in his ''Oikonomikos'' just to prove his ex-prof wrong. Nietzsche found Plato's politics replusive, and said so, claiming that Plato's conception of utopia was "boring". ::Popper may have been the first to link Plato to the word ''totalitarian'', but that would most likely be because in the early 40's when he wrote ''The Open Society and its Enemies'' it was still a fairly new word. Criticism of Plato's Republic as essentially tyrranical dates back, depending on how you want to look at it, to the begining of the era when freedom was considered a good thing - roughly 300 years ago - or as far back as the fourth century to the early Christians' attacks on the neoplatonic Gnostics, if you want to include a theological defense of the non-perfectibility of man as a defense of human freedom. (e.g., the freedom to sin) ::To his credit, Popper does not claim to have invented "Plato the Totalitarian." His original contribution is the claim that ''everything is Plato's fault.'' However, response to Popper's claims about Plato's legacy are pretty negative. For that reason, I'm removing the word "convincing". ::: (User:William M. Connolley 16:44, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)) At the moment, the response-to-Popper stuff is terribly vague - nothing more than assertion. It needs to be firmed up, though poss within popper pages. The stuff about aristotle is prob worth adding somewhere, on your authority. However, the very early stuff is largely irrelevant to that section, which is a history of plato scholarship. Assuming it is correct when it says popper etc "diverge from traditional views", then the start of this appears to be 1930's and this should be said: there was a major revision of opinion of platos poltics beginning then. If all Nietzsche said was that platos utopia was boring then his claims to have started this were weak. I've not read nay N, but there is nothing about Plato on his wiki page. :::: A great deal about Plato in Nietzsche (mostly expressed as opinions on Socrates, but that's a formalism). Doubt it had much influence on the later criticism, though. (And where's Russell: History of Western Philosophy?) User:Pmanderson 03:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) == odd timeline etc == First, Aristotle commentors often make the case that it was the scholastics who were dogmatic with what were only notes for discusion, that dialogue was his true means and that he was anything but dogmatic himself. Try reading him from that perspective and you will probably be able to find some gems. Now this timeline... I'm not sure about parts. Please correct it if you can. But first... Aristotle's "the Athenean Constitution" (qv) tells a tale of great struggles between two parties, let's call them "aristos" and " demos". Alcibiades was saved by Soc ( who got to know Thucydides rather well at that battle apparently...) and party of aristos was a Very busy boy. Eugenics was revived in the US, with its race problems ( slaves and the genocide of the first Americans, interesting subject that ) and now there is all this damn Leo Straussian crapola as we enter a period of declining resources ( OIL ). So there are some rather important reasons to getting this old stuff right and getting the message out. True?: 404 -- Plato is convinced by his relatives to enter politics. (In OTL, he distances himself from politics because of the catastrophes of the Peloponnesian War, but in this ATL, there is still hope.) ~ Darius II of Persia dies, prompting Egypt to rebel under the leadership of Amyrtaeus of Sais, who founds the 28th Dynasty. PLATONIC PERIOD 395 - 348 BC -- Plato is elected Strategos of Athens and begins his program of transforming the Delian League into his own vision of a philosophical state. He introduces an examined civil service, founds a standard of education through the Academia, and reorganizes the League's military into cohesive mixtures of recruits from various member states. His social programs render the league citizens to resemble more the Spartan way of life, over time. Children come to be raised by the state from an early age into one of the three tiers of government: statesmen, soldiers, and laborers. This is determined by examination. Wealth becomes increasingly under the sole control of the state, and distributed according to its needs. Civil rights become increasingly eroded and the Democracy becomes a shell of its former self, since only those who were raised as statesmen-philosophers can take part in government. Social turmoil in the Delian League becomes commonplace, but is quelled. As the state exercises more and more control over the lives of the people, these rebellions become less common. 390 -- The Athenians forge an alliance with the recently independent kingdom of Egypt. The Athenian commander Chabrias is dispatched with a fleet and army to help the Egyptians prevent reconquest from the Persians. 378 -- Plato writes his book, Sophiocracy, which reflects his plans for organizing into a government divided into 3 classes: philosopher-statesmen, militarists, and workers. 367 -- Dionysius the Younger succeeds his father as tyrant of Syracuse. 360 -- War between Egypt and the Persian Empire erupts due to the aggressive new pharaoh. Under the leadership of the Pharaoh Tachos (Djeho), Egyptian and Athenian forces invade Palestine with great success, penetrating all the way to Phoenicia. In response to this success, Cyprus revolts. The Athenians are quick to gain Cyprus as an ally, and by 355, it is admitted to the Delian League as a member. For the first time in centuries, Egypt is once again an imperial power, thanks to the military and financial support of the Delian League while the Athenians gain trade interests along the Eastern Mediterranean coast. 357 - 336 BC -- Syracuse enters a tumultuous civil war when Dionysius the Younger is challenged by his uncle, Dion. Dion is able to defeat Dionysius in 354 but is later assasinated by Timoleon, a Corinthian who was in Dion's military service, who, in 344, solidifies his control by requesting help from the Peloponnesian League. Help comes just in time to route a new Carthaginian assault in Sicily. The result of the affair is that Syracuse joins the League as a formal member in 336. 350 -- The Athenians become distracted from the Macedonian War, by coming to the aid of the Egyptians once again when the Persians, under the cruel Artaxerxes III, attack again, in an attempt to recapture Egypt. At the battle of Sidon, the Persians are only repulsed with great losses on both sides. 348 -- Plato dies of natural causes. The attrition in the Phoenician expedition as well as Plato's death causes the Athenians to lose their resolve in the war. The Thebans unsuccessfully try to make gains in Thessaly against Philip II but no longer have the ingenuity to do so, ever since the death of Epaminondas. 345 -- Demosthenes is elected to Strategos and continues much of the policies of Plato. The Academia becomes the effective residence of the Strategos. 340 - 336 BC -- Latin War. Rome's Latin allies fight a war of independence, dragging the Campanians in as allies. As Rome begins to overcome the revolt, the Campanians request the help of the Peloponnesian League. The Syracusans and Spartans send aid that eventually turns the tide of the war against the Romans. As a result, Rome is defeated and ceases to be a major power in Italy. The Campanians are eventually brought in as allies and join the Peloponnesian League in 331 BC. Huxley might fit in here too. And: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Ancient_Greece There is a hell of a lot going on in this period, yet it is incredibly easy to read a few books and think one understands. Note that for several millenia the problem of the state was resolved by dictatorship, oligarchy and/or fuedalism. Democratic "forces" were the conspirators. 200 years ago the balance shifted leading to the rise of anti democratic conciousness. WW2 was the supposed triumph of democracy and self-determination, against the revanchement of the "aristos". The really sad part is the mediocrity, the mental incapcity, of those who use the power of industrial revolutions to play out their pathological games of superiority when the only thing in which they excell is "attitude" , that and Toynbee's mimesis foreshadow a crisis of immense proportions. Also, Medici were Platoid, several popes were Medici, Machiavelli wrote "The Prince" for them (Galileo was their court philosopher). WblakesxUser:Wblakesx --------------- :Wow, that's a neat one. Galileo wasn't even a Platonist, contrary to some philosophers' claims, as I noted above. Even if he were, what in hell does his work have to do with the efforts of the arstocracy to put down us good guys? Perhaps you're confusing him with that old genocidal Newton? [If you haven't run into that bit of mad pseudo-feminism, congratulate yourself on your luck.] User:Dandrake 00:32, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC) -------------- :Dan, a slight revision of the last sentence... Good guys? that might be an anachronism, after all the athenian demos weren't particuarly just, but apparently he has been used to support later ( and present ) faux elites. But why latch on to parenthesis when there is a larger question? WblakesxUser:Wblakesx ---------------- I've got to cut waay back on my attempts at facetiousness. As you say, Athenian demos weren't all that clearly good, and the phrase was my attempt at a joke about identifying them and [whoever it was in Galileo's time] and our democratic selves (whom I do see as good guys). Anyway, why I picked up on a parenthesis: I always say on newsgroups that if you're going to drop little ''obiter dicta'' in your posting, you have to be prepared to defend them. Galileo is a subject I know something about, and it's far from clear to me that the person who shocked the Old Guard by writing serious science in Italian for the middle class to read was a philosopher of aristocratic oppression—even if he did work for an aristocrat. On the other hand, I really don't know that much about Plato—just enough to have inserted a comment on his great political classic—so I'm not sticking myself into the larger and more important question. Cheers, User:Dandrake 01:20, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC) == Cleanup == I've attempted to cleanup some of the flow of language of this page. However, I would like to know the following: * ''All the known dialogues of Plato survive, however modern-day standard editions of his oeuvre generally contain dialogues considered by the consensus of scholars either suspect (e.g., Alcibiades, Clitophon) or probably spurious (such as Demodocus, or the Second Alcibiades).'' :* Please cite sources that detail this so people can independently verify what is being said. :* Why are Alcibiades and Clitophon considered suspect? :* Why are Demodocus or the Second Alcibiades considered spurious? :* Comment: this should be merged in with the main document and ''not'' in the introduction. * I cleaned up the text ''There is a prominent crater on the Moon named the Plato crater, in his honor.'', however I suspect that this could be added as another section with a very brief summary of why it was named what it was named. Again, I don't believe that this should be in the introduction. * I've updated the Plato#Biography section. Unfortunately, this isn't entirely complete. Where is the discussion of Plato and Dionysius of Syracuse and Dion, who he lusted after? Where is the discussion of Dionysius II and his attempt to make Plato a philosopher king? What about Plato's disillusionment with Athenian politics? Also, the biography has material that should be in writings - though the biography should probably cover when he wrote what texts and why. :*Also, the sentence ''It is suggested that much of his ethical writing is in pursuit of a society where similar injustices could not occur.'' uses a weasel term. Who suggests this? * In the Plato#Work section: :* It reads ''and the question-and-answer style is more pro forma''. Maybe I'm being a little dense here, but what exactly does this mean? Could we have a more clear definition? :* ''It is interesting to ponder the qualities of dialogue, for this makes the reader into an observer, rather than a recipient (the 'addressee' as it were), as would be the case with a non-dialogic presentation of beliefs.'' - peacock term! Surely this should be rewritten. ::* (User:William M. Connolley) I cut that :* ''In this sense, scholars such as Massimo Verdicchio have referred to the 'rhetorical nature of truth'.'' Interesting I'm sure, but this idea needs to be expanded and I'd like to know where Massimo Vedicchio said this so I could verify it for myself along with read it in it's context. Also, who is Massimo Vedicchio? Why is he significant? I'd also like to know this sort of information because right now it seems like mere academic name-dropping. ::* (User:William M. Connolley 20:06, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC))I cut that bit. * In the section Plato#A short history of Plato scholarship: :*''One of the characteristics of the Middle Ages was reliance on authority and on scholastic commentaries on writings of Plato and other historically important philosophers, rather than accessing their original works.'' - I'm confused. What does "One of the characteristics of the Middle Ages was reliance on authority and on scholastic commentaries", in particular the "Authority" part. What does this mean? :*''By the 19th century Plato's reputation was restored and at least on par with Aristotle's.'' The paragraphs in the text before hand do not give any indication that Plato's reputation was sullied. This should be reflected in the text somehow! :*''While many critics reject such readings on a variety of grounds, they remain widely discussed.'' - which critics? This is currently a weasel word style sentence. * I've added a references section (I got my material for the Academy that Plato founded from "Plato: A Beginner's Guide"). See Wikipedia:Cite sources for more information. Overall this article has heaps of potential and I believe that it can be expanded far more thoroughly. - User:Ta bu shi da yu 10:02, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC) :(User:William M. Connolley 20:06, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)) I made some other changes to "Work". The assertion that the dialogues mean it never becomes a tract is wrong: see the laws for example. I moved "several characters discuss a topic by asking questions of one another" so it only applies to the early ones. The only later ones I've read (republic; laws) can just about be called dialogues but certainly the bulk of them is the lead characters opinions, not a discussion. Shouldn't 'Letters' in Bibliography section link to something like 'Plato's Letters' instead of just 'Letters'? After all, if you click on 'Laws', you don't get (or, most likely, want) an explanation of laws as such, with no reference on Plato. This is analogous to 'Republic', too. ===Biographical=== I do not know much about Plato, but do you think that you could make the biography section a little more biographical and less like all of the other sections? Thanks. ==Naming of Wikipedia articles on Plato's texts== Naming of articles treating Plato's dialogues seperately is confusing, I propose following renamings (per tetralogy): :note 1: Since ::works marked (1) (scholars don't generally agree that Plato is the author) :and ::works marked (2) (scholars generally agree that Plato is ''not'' the author of the work) :might lead to discussion if marked "(Plato)", I'd mark these "(dialogue)", except where these works are no dialogues. :note 2: I copy this proposition to Category Talk:Dialogues of Plato, and propose to have the discussion there *I. **''Euthyphro'' -> Euthyphro (Plato) **''Apology'' -> Apology (Plato) **''Crito'' -> Crito (Plato) **''Phaedo'' -> Phaedo (Plato) *II. **''Cratylus (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Theaetetus'' -> Theaetetus (Plato) **''Sophist (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Statesman (Plato)'' (OK!) *III. **''Parmenides (dialogue)'' -> Parmenides (Plato) **''Philebus (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Symposium (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Phaedrus (Plato)'' (OK!) *IV. **''First Alcibiades (Plato)'' (1) -> First Alcibiades (dialogue) **''Second Alcibiades (Plato)'' (2) -> Second Alcibiades (dialogue) **''Hipparchus'' (2) -> Hipparchus (dialogue) **''Rival Lovers'' (2) -> Rival lovers (dialogue) *V. **''Theages'' (2) -> Theages (dialogue) **''Charmides (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Laches (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Lysis'' -> Lysis (Plato) *VI. **''Euthydemus (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Protagoras (dialogue)'' -> Protagoras (Plato) **''Gorgias (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Meno'' -> Meno (Plato) *VII. **''Greater Hippias'' (1) -> Greater Hippias (dialogue) **''Lesser Hippias'' -> Lesser Hippias (Plato) **''Ion'' -> Ion (Plato) **''Menexenus'' -> Menexenus (Plato) *VIII. **''Clitophon'' (1) -> Clitophon (dialogue) **''Plato's Republic'' -> Republic (Plato) **''Timaeus (Plato)'' (OK!) **''Critias (Plato)'' (OK!) *IX. **''Minos (Plato)'' (2) -> Minos (dialogue) **''Plato's Laws'' -> Laws (Plato) **''Epinomis'' (2) -> Epinomis (dialogue) **''Letters'' ((1) for some) -> Letters (Plato) ''Remaining works (most of them considered spurious already in antiquity):'' *''Axiochus'' (2) (OK!) *''Definitions (Plato)'' (2) (OK!) *''Demodocus'' (2) (OK!) *''Epigrams (Plato)'' (OK!) *''Eryxias'' (2) (OK!) *''Halcyon'' (2) (OK?) *''On Justice'' (2) (OK!) *''On Virtue'' (2) (OK!) *''Sisyphus (Plato)'' (2) -> Sisyphus (dialogue) (or treating this work in the Sisyphus article?) --User:Francis Schonken 13:10, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC) ==Translations== I do not recall, or believe, that the Islamic commentators preserved the Greek text of Plato, as the present article says. Citations would be welcome. User:Pmanderson 03:11, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Glaucon== ''' One of Plato's ancestors, Glaucon, was one of the best-known members of the Athenian nobility.''' If he was so famous, who was he? Plato's uncle is only famous for being the link between Plato and Critias; is his brother intended? And neither in an ''ancestor'' in English. User:Pmanderson 19:49, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Poll (picture)== [[Image:Another plato.jpg|thumb|300px|left|Visual interpretation of “Plato’s cave” by Dutch artist Nick Gabrichidze;]] So What do you think of this picture? *As initiator of this, I should repeat my comment: This is vivid and may be helpful. User:Pmanderson 14:40, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) *It's ok for now; we can find better. --User:Goethean ॐ 03:29, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) Notable images of Plato have been produced for thousands of years across the world. We do not need to include one by an artist who wrote an article about himself and got on VfD. User:172 07:42, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) *Shameless self promotion, pics of the artist(?) have been added by himself or suspected sockpuppets on a large number of articles. -- User:Chris 73 User talk:Chris 73 08:49, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) *The picture we need is "School of Athens." This picture is lame. --User:Carlj7 08:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) *Ah, here we go. Let's get a detail from this: --User:Carlj7 08:55, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) School of Athens is a great illustration of Plato himself, but I doubt it can be used as an illustration to the cave allegory, where Nick Gabrichidze's image fits. Basically both can be used, but I beleive some graphical material to help users understand the whole "Plato's cave" concept is neccesary. As a matter of fact we have an idea. The "Platos' cave" needs a seperate article defenetely,it is a seperate issue from Plato himslef. After all cave allegory was later used as a stepstone for many philosophers. May be some one can write "Plato's cave" article, or put a request for contribution(or we will take our time to write it ourselves) And then we move Nick Gabrichidze's painting to illustrate that alllegory, while the images of Plato and his biography will be kept here. So what do you hink? If no one willtake the time to create aseperate "Plato's cave" artickle till weekend w will do then, but none of us has time to write it till Saturday. Thanx for everyone for ideas. Authors 11:51, 21 June UTC Note to 172-wikipedia is not your private resourse. If you donot like the image which isdiscussed please share your opinion here instead of removing the whole content. The requiest for page protection will be filed if you will keep removing teh content without even discussing it with other users. User:Authors 12:51, 21 June UTC :I support the removal of the ''Plato’s cave'' picture – and so it seems do most editors who expressed their opinion above. The image is useless as an illustration for those who are not already familiar with the concept, and it is not a notable illustration, either. Especially given these circumstances, no editor needs to discuss his intent to remove the image further before doing so. User:Rl 11:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) As we wrote the best solution would be to move the image to the "Plato's allegory of the cave". If rl or anybody else will suggest a good image to illustrate cave allegory we will consder the other image as well. Anyway, it would be just polite to let poll run for at least a week and hen deside to keep image here or not. If after a week rough consensus will be against keeping the image here, then we will allow you to remove it, and will not post it back, we promice. If someone wants to engage in editors war instead of waiting a week so compromise can be found, then be my guest. It is true that anyone can delete a content in wikipedia without permission but note that anyone can also add content. We have had a disagreement with 172 about this part as he keeps seeing this additional image here as some visios intent from our side refusng to consider a good faith. Sad isn't it? User:Authors 13 : 44, 21 june UTC If anyone is skilled in a graphics program, a simple diagram could be created. --User:Goethean ॐ 14:31, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) :I inquired with User:Jossifresco in this regard. --User:Goethean ॐ 14:36, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) :I do not think an adequate diagram of the cave would be simple; for one thing, it should represent the third dimension, so the shadows can be two-dimensional. But by all means let us see what someone can come up with. User:Pmanderson 14:39, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::a google image search turned up [http://rivertext.com/images_weil/platoscave.gif this]. --User:Goethean ॐ 15:43, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::Not bad, although it does not show the actual shadows...User:Pmanderson 16:20, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) * I think we should remove the picture. User:Paul August User_talk:Paul August 14:41, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) *(commenting yet again...) I don't mind the picture, but it seems totally improper for the creator of the picture to have inserted it into the article and to be replcing it after it was deleted, regardless of whether the deleter was anonymous or not. It really reeks of self-promotion. --User:Goethean ॐ 15:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) *Why Goetahean? There are tons of people who are running around this resourse deleting parts of the articles they dislike or disagree with-why not to restore the content if you see it neccessary. The user who deleted this image is going around all material assotiated with this particular author which are posted at wikipedia and sistematically deleting them(check Flying dutchman history page,if you want to see adeletion of accurate image, or caucasophobia page andcheck whohad decorated it with tugs). So for us it is a pure illustration of unforchunate obsession which deleting the content created by particular user. We do not know what his motivation might be. Anyway let's focus on image-as we have said if you have something else to offer or if you want to move it at "Cave" page then please do so.But please let's talk about the image and not about the motivation of the people who uploaded or removed it. And guys stop being so obsessed with this sef-promotion fear. Artist is contributing the image to this article, we help him to upload it with his agreement : if you think image is OK, please accept it. If you think that image can be used here than artist should receive at least a moral credit. What is your objection? User:Gabrichidze My personal feeling is that the image is really, really ugly. No one can be blamed for removing it. But anyhow, let's make a Plato's cave page, so that we can put a "Influence on Pop culture" section in and talk about how the Matrix is a total rip off. --User:Carlj7 07:11, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) At 28 I will be removing the image to "Plato's allegory of the cavepage" if he consensus here will be agaist the painting. Please let others have their say and try to avoid the editors war untill then. User:Gabrichidze *Please note that the controversial picture is likely a copyvio, and is under investigation at WP:CP. User:Radiant!User_talk:Radiant!>|<">meta:mergist 10:37, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC) Does the commitment of group of users(radiant,mikalai,chris73) who go around tons of pages icluding ones hey never been before(would it be surrealism, Plato, Polygamy or other) with only one mssion: to remove he material assotiated with one single particlar author look really normal? There is nothing wrong with copyright status for this image, the radiant made it up by his own Please check caucasophobia VfD and alk page to see how this unforchunate war had began. I seriousely doubt good faith. A
Plato
I'm currently on a Semi-Wikivacation you could contact me @ xxxvonrichexxx@yahoo.comxxx if it's important. User:Plato User talk: plato ---- User talk: Plato/archive April 2004 User talk: Plato/archive May 2004 User talk: Plato/archive June 2004 User talk: Plato/archive July 2004 User talk: Plato/archive August 2004 User talk: Plato/archive September 2004 User talk: Plato/archive October 2004 User talk: Plato/archive November and December 2004 ---- Hi Nick - this isn't urgent, but before you use your sig anywhere, please correct the HTML. You have a couple of open tags that are affecting the rest of the page now (due to something that used to fix it automatically being turned off). Please add /font tags to stop the colours from running onto the rest of the page. Thanks -- User:Sannse User talk:Sannse 11:40, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Fixed (I hope)--User:Plato User talk: plato 10:37, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Votes for Deletion== Three VfD's are taking place on key Project of Alternative Medicine articles. I need you to vote to KEEP the following. Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/List_of_terms_and_concepts_used_in_alternative_medicine This article is extremely important to our project. Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of miscellaneous topics related to alternative medicine And, vote to REDIRECT the following. Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Philosophy of alternative medicine Please vote in favor of the Project on Alternative Medicine today, before it is too late. :-- User:John Gohde 14:54, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC) ==Bring back quickpolls== I think it's time that Wikipedia:quickpolls be re-evaluated as a solution to short term disputes between users. WP:BBQ --Ryan!">User:Merovingian | Talk">User talk:Merovingian 05:15, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC) Thanks for your support! --Ryan!">User:Merovingian | Talk">User talk:Merovingian 23:38, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC) ==Thank you== Hey Nick, thank you so much for voting for me in my adminship nomination. I very much appreciate your support. Best, User:SlimVirgin 03:51, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC) ==Make the pie higher== As you're a sysop on Lirpedia kould you turn my editing kapabilities on please. I fully understand that the cabal needs to keep kontrol of who kan edit, and I pledge to obey the cabal and of course Lir at all times, but I have signed up and it still appears to me as if all the pages are protekt-ed. You kan always arbitrayt me if I turn out to be a tr011, but I assure you I am not. [http://www.kapitalism.net/wiki/index.php?title=User:Doktor_Pangbourne Comrade Kornelius] 10:59, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Thank you!== Thank you for your support on my RfA! I shall attempt to put the shiny new buttons to good use. User:Mindspillage User talk:Mindspillage 00:58, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Military history of Puerto Rico== It's been a long time! I wrote the article mentioned above and have self-nominated it for Featured article status. Please take a look on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Military history of Puerto Rico and express your opinon. Thank you, User:Marine 69-71 ==Friendly Chat== Hi, I just thought that I would let you know that User:Linuxbeak has nominated me for adminship. I would like to invite you to participate at WP:RFA if you wish to do so. Thank you and take care User:Marine 69-71
Plato
la:User:Platosimple:User:Plato ==Comrade Nick== Hello, I am Comrade Nick
| [[Image:Girlwithapearlearringpainting.jpg|thumb|right|375px|''Girl with a Pearl Earring'' by Johannes Vermeer]] |
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