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Pierre Trudeau{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" align="right" |+ The Rt. Hon. Pierre Elliott Trudeau |- | style="background:#efefef;" align="center" colspan="2" | |- | Order: | 15th |- | First Term: | April 20, 1968– June 4, 1979 |- | Second Term: | March 3, 1980– June 30, 1984 |- | Predecessor: | Lester Bowles Pearson |- | First Successor: | Joe Clark |- | Second Successor: | John Napier Turner |- | Date of Birth: | October 18, 1919 |- | Place of Birth: | Montreal, Quebec |- | Date of Death: | September 28, 2000 |- | Spouse: | Margaret Sinclair |- | Children: | three sons and one daughter |- | Profession: | Lawyer |- | Political Party: | Liberal Party of Canada |} The Right Honourable Joseph Philippe Pierre Yves Elliott Trudeau Queen's Privy Council for Canada, Order of Canada, Order of the Companions of Honour, Queen's Counsel, Master of Arts, LL.L, Doctor of Laws, Fellow of the Royal Society of Canada (October 18, 1919 – September 28, 2000) was the fifteenth Prime Minister of Canada of Canada from April 20, 1968 to June 3, 1979, and from March 3, 1980 to June 30, 1984. Trudeau was a charismatic figure who dominated the Canadian political scene, arousing passionate reactions. "He haunts us still", one biography begins. Admirers praise the force of Trudeau's intellect. They salute his political acumen in preserving national unity and bringing into force the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Detractors fault Trudeau for arrogance, deplore economic policy that increased the national debt, and criticize him for increasing a sense of political alienation in Western Canada. But few would dispute the assertion that Trudeau was a towering figure who helped re-define Canada. Trudeau led Canada through some of its most tumultuous times, and was often the centre of controversy. Known for his flamboyance, he sometimes wore Sandal (footwear)s in the Canadian House of Commons, dated celebrities such as Barbra Streisand, Kim Cattrall, Liona Boyd, and Margot Kidder, occasionally fuddle duddle to insult his opponents, and on May 7, 1977, did a Glossary of ballet terms#Pirouette behind the back of Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom. As prime minister, he patriated the Canada Act 1982 from the British Parliament to Canada and incorporated in it the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. ==Early life and career== Born in Montreal, Trudeau earned a law degree at the Université de Montréal, and a master's in political economy at Harvard. During his attendance at the Université de Montréal, Trudeau was conscripted into the Canadian Officers Training Corps under the World War II ''National Resources Mobilization Act'' of 1940. Trudeau served with other conscripts in the home guard, while volunteers saw combat. Although willing to become involved in the war, he felt getting involved would be turning his back on a Quebec population he believed was betrayed by the Mackenzie King government. In a 1942 Outremont by-election, he campaigned for the Quebec anti-conscription candidate Jean Drapeau (see Conscription Crisis of 1944), and was eventually expelled from the Officers' Training Corps for lack of discipline. After the war, he attended the ''Institut d'études politiques de Paris'' in Paris, and spent a year at the London School of Economics. From the late 1940s through the mid-1960s, Trudeau was primarily a Montreal-based intellectual. In 1949, he was an active supporter of workers in the Asbestos Strike. In 1956, he edited an important book on the subject, ''La grève de l'amiante'', which argued that the strike was a seminal event in Quebec's history, marking the beginning of resistance to the conservative, francophone clerical establishment and anglophone business class that had long ruled the province. Throughout the 1950s, Trudeau was a leading figure in the opposition to the repressive rule of Premier of Quebec Maurice Duplessis as the founder and editor of ''Cité Libre,'' a dissident journal that helped provide the intellectual basis for the Quiet Revolution. Trudeau had been sympathetic to Marxist ideas in the 1940s, and in the 1950s and early 1960s, he was a supporter of the social democracy Co-operative Commonwealth Federation party. During the 1950s, he was blacklisted by the United States, and prevented from entering that country because of a visit to a conference in Moscow (where he was briefly arrested for throwing a snowball at a statue of Stalin), and because he subscribed to a number of leftist publications. Trudeau later appealed the ban, and had it lifted. His views evolved towards a liberal position in favour of individual rights counter to the state and made him an opponent of Quebec nationalism. Trudeau criticized the Liberal Party of Canada of Lester Pearson when it supported arming Bomarc in Canada with nuclear warheads. Nevertheless, he was persuaded to join the party in 1965 with his friends Gérard Pelletier and Jean Marchand. The "three wise men" ran for the Liberals and were elected in the Canadian federal election, 1965. Trudeau was appointed two years later to Pearson's Canadian cabinet as Minister of Justice. ==Justice minister== As justice minister, Pierre Trudeau was responsible for removing laws against homosexuality from the Criminal Code of Canada, famously remarking: "The view we take here is that there's no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation." He also liberalized divorce laws, and clashed with Quebec Premier of Quebec Daniel Johnson, Sr., during constitutional negotiations. At the end of Canada's centennial year in 1967, Prime Minister Pearson announced his intention to step down. Trudeau was persuaded to run for the Liberal leadership, and ran an energetic campaign that mobilized and inspired many youths who had been influenced by the 1960s counterculture, and who saw Trudeau as a symbol of generational change. At the April Liberal Party of Canada leadership convention, 1968, Trudeau was elected leader of the party on the fourth ballot, defeating several prominent, long-serving Liberals including Paul Martin, Sr., Robert Winters and Paul Hellyer. Some wondered if he was too liberal and radical for the nation's top job, and his views led to some initial alienation from the party's conservative wing. However, he benefited from an unprecedented wave of personal popularity called "Trudeaumania" which saw Trudeau mobbed by throngs of youths. A significant moment in the Canadian federal election, 1968 occurred during the annual Fête nationale du Québec parade when rioting Quebec Quebec separatism threw rocks and bottles at the bandstand where Trudeau was seated. Defying his aides' pleas to take cover, Trudeau stayed in his seat fearlessly facing the rioters. The image of the young politician showing such courage impressed the Canadian populace, and he handily won the election the next day. ==Prime minister== As prime minister, Trudeau espoused participatory democracy as a means of making Canada a "Just Society". His desire for greater citizen involvement in government appears to have been frustrated by lack of support within his party, and he later opposed greater involvement for citizens in representative democracy. He vigorously defended the newly implemented universal health care and regional development programs as means of making society more just. During the October Crisis of 1970, when ''Front de libération du Québec'' (FLQ) terrorists kidnapped Quebec Labour Minister, Pierre Laporte (who was later murdered) and British Trade Consul James Cross, Trudeau responded by invoking the ''War Measures Act'', which put the nation under temporary martial law. Although this response is still controversial and was opposed as excessive by figures like Tommy Douglas, it was met with only limited objections from the public. Trudeau presented a determined public stance during the crisis, answering the question of how far he would go to stop the terrorists with "Just watch me!" Five of the FLQ terrorists were flown to Cuba in 1970 as part of a deal in exchange for James Cross' life, but all members were eventually arrested. The five flown to Cuba were arrested after they returned to Canada years later. In 1971, the bachelor prime minister married Vancouver socialite Margaret Trudeau, a woman who, at 22, was less than half Trudeau's age. They had three children and were the subject of enormous press coverage before their well-publicized legal separation in 1977. Their divorce was finalized in 1984. In the Canadian federal election, 1972, Trudeau's Liberal Party won with a minority government, with the New Democratic Party holding the balance of power. In the Canadian federal election, 1974, Trudeau was re-elected with a majority government. Trudeau's government policy of official Bilingualism in Canada was one of several issues in both elections. ==Defeat and opposition== In the Canadian federal election, 1979, Trudeau's government was defeated by the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada, led by Joe Clark, who formed a minority government. Trudeau announced his intention to resign as Liberal Party leader; however, before a leadership convention could be held, Clark's government was defeated in the Canadian House of Commons by a Motion of Non-Confidence. The Liberal Party persuaded Trudeau to stay on as leader and fight the election. Trudeau defeated Clark in the Canadian federal election, 1980, and won a majority government. ==Return to power== Two very significant events for Canada occurred duting Trudeau's final term in office. The first was the defeat of the 1980 Quebec referendum proposal on Quebec independence, called by ''Parti Québécois'' governemnt René Lévesque. Secondly, Trudeau's likely most enduring legacy, was the successful 1982 patriation of the Constitution of Canada and the additional Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Quebec refusal to agree to the new constitution is the source of continued acrimony between the federal and Quebec governments. On February 29, 1984 (a leap day), after a famous "long walk in the snow", Trudeau decided to step down as prime minister, ending his 16-year rule of Canada. ==Final years== In retirement, Trudeau rarely gave speeches or spoke to the press. However, his interventions into public debate had a significant impact when they occurred. Trudeau wrote and spoke out against both the Meech Lake Accord and Charlottetown Accord proposals to amend the Canadian constitution, arguing that they would weaken federalism and the Charter of Rights if implemented. His opposition was a critical factor leading to the defeat of the two proposals. He also spoke out against Jacques Parizeau and the ''Parti Québécois'' with less effect. In his final years, Trudeau commanded respect in English Canada, but was regarded with suspicion in Quebec due to his role in the 1982 constitutional deal which was seen to have excluded the province. Trudeau also remained active in international affairs, visiting foreign leaders and participating in international associations such as the Club of Rome. In the last years of his life, Trudeau was afflicted with Parkinson's disease, and became less active, although he continued to work at his law office until a few months before his death. He was devastated by the death of his youngest son, Michel Trudeau, who was killed in an avalanche in November 1998. ===Death=== :''Main article: Death and state funeral of Pierre Trudeau'' Pierre Elliott Trudeau died on September 28, 2000, and is buried in the Trudeau family crypt, St-Remi-de-Napierville Cemetery, Saint-Remi, Quebec. He is survived by his ex-wife Margaret, his sons Justin Trudeau and Alexandre Trudeau, a journalist, and his daughter, Sarah, whom he fathered with Deborah Coyne. During the State funeral of Pierre Trudeau, Justin delivered an emotional yet articulate eulogy [http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-307-1620-21/unforgettable_moments/life_society/justin_trudeau_eulogy] that led to wide speculation that a career in politics was in his future. ==Honours and awards== Effective January 1, 2004 Montreal Dorval International Airport was renamed Montréal/Pierre Elliott Trudeau International Airport (YUL). A plan to rename Mount Logan, Canada's highest mountain, for Trudeau was considered, but ultimately rejected. A plan is under consideration to name a mountain in British Columbia's Cariboo Range for the prime minister. The peak is located in the "Premier Range", which has many peaks named for British and Canadian prime ministers.[http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/09/28/trudeau_mount.html] Viewers of the "The Greatest Canadian" Canadian Broadcasting Corporation TV series voted Trudeau the third greatest Canadian in 2004. Over the years, the Canadian news agency, Canadian Press (CP), bestowed Pierre Trudeau the following awards: *"Canadian Newsmaker of the Year" a record 10 times **Trudeau received the award a record eight straight years: 1968-1975 and again in 1978 and 2000. *"Newsmaker of the 20th century" **Trudeau declined to give an interview with the CP when given the honour, but said in a letter to the CP that he was "surprised and pleased". [http://canoe.ca/CANOE2000/politics_8.html] **In polls conducted by various Canadian internet sites, users also agreed with the CP voting Trudeau "Newsmaker of the 20th Century." ==Legacy== Many Canadians, particularly in western Canada, disliked Trudeau and his policies. Trudeau's policies were thought by many westerners to favour Ontario and Quebec, at the expense of Alberta and British Columbia. On a visit to Winnipeg, Manitoba, Manitoba, he quipped: "Why should I sell the Canadian farmers' wheat?" (This was actually in the context of a longer comment in which he answered his own question, but is rarely remembered as such.) One particularly unpopular policy in the West was the National Energy Program. His imposition of the ''War Measures Act'', on the written request of the Premier of Quebec and the Mayor of Montreal, which received general support at the time, is remembered by some, especially in Quebec, as an attack on democracy. Though his popularity had fallen in English Canada at the time of his retirement in 1984, public opinion later became much more sympathetic to him, particularly in comparison to his successor, Brian Mulroney. Some people consider Trudeau's economic policies to have been a weak point. Inflation and unemployment marred much of his term and, when he left office, the national debt and deficit were at all time high levels. However, these trends were present in most western countries at the time, they continued after he left office, and the role Trudeau played in them is debatable. The value of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms continues to be debated in some quarters. The Supreme Court of Canada has ruled that the Charter does not apply to common law, although it ruled that the common law must be applied in such a way that it is in the spirit of the Charter, and its notwithstanding clause has occasionally been used (by Quebec for a few years after its enactment) to circumvent its provisions. The Supreme Court has described situations in which charter rights can be superceded and withdrawn. Canadians remain subject to double jeopardy, in the sense that the Crown retains the right to appeal acquittals (a right upheld by the Supreme Court in 1988 as consistent with the Charter), and Canadian libel laws still do not incorporate a presumption of innocence. The Trudeau government did remove the right of courts to substitute a conviction for an acquittal on appeal (the so-called Henry Morgentaler amendment) in 1975, but the Charter does not provide further protections against double jeopardy. The Charter and Section 35 of the ''Constitution Act of 1982'' have clarified issues of aboriginal rights. For example, it has been used to establish the previously denied aboriginal rights of Metis (people). The Charter has also been used to extend the rights of women, gays and lesbians, and minorities. Hundreds of federal and Canadian province statutes were rewritten in order to comply with the Charter and many others have been struck down as unconstitutional. Most notably the law restricting abortion was struck down in 1989, and, in 2003, Canadian courts ruled that restrictions against same-sex marriage were unconstitutional. There is as much controversy when the courts interpret Charter rights broadly as there is when the courts restrict or qualify them. Overall, the Charter receives wide public support in Canada. ===Cultural legacy=== Few outside the museum community recall the tremendous efforts Trudeau made, in the last years of his tenure, to see to it that the National Gallery of Canada and the Canadian Museum of Civilization finally had proper homes in the National capital. The Trudeau government also implemented programs which helped develop the Canadian film industry. ===Legacy with respect to Quebec=== Trudeau's legacy in Quebec is mixed. Nationalist Quebecers have often portrayed his policy of bilingualism not as an exercise in establishing equity, but as an exercise in the assimilation of the French into a monolithic anglophone Canada. On the other hand, many credit his actions during the October Crisis as crucial in terminating the Front de libération du Québec (FLQ) as a force in Quebec, and ensuring that the campaign for Quebec separatism took a democratic and peaceful route. Trudeau is also credited by many for defeat of the 1980 Quebec referendum. In the debates between Trudeau and Levesque, Canadians were treated to a contest between two highly intelligent, articulate and bilingual politicians who, despite being bitterly opposed, were each committed to the democratic process. ===Bilingualism=== Bilingualism in Canada has been integrated into all levels of the federal government and the civil service to the extent that virtually all government services are provided in both official languages, anywhere in the country. However, the only officially bilingual provincial government is New Brunswick. While official bilingualism has settled some of the grievances francophones had towards the federal government, many francophones had hoped that Canadians would be able to function in the official language of their choice no matter where in the country they were. Bilingualism did not bring about the fully bilingual and bicultural nation desired by many. Nor has the original target that half of all high school graduates be bilingual been met. However, Trudeau's ambitions in this arena have been overstated; Trudeau once said that he regretted the use of the term "bilingualism", because it appeared to demand that all Canadians speak two languages. In fact, Trudeau's vision was to see Canada as a bilingual confederation in which ''all'' cultures would have a place. This is described in the following way in his epitaph: :... Never wavering from his vision of Canada as a strong united federation with equality among provinces and guaranteed rights for individuals, Trudeau was determined to secure a full and equal place for all Canadians in a bilingual, multicultural Canada. This was not the vision of Quebec separatists nor even many moderate Quebec nationalists (as noted above). Bilingualism was also opposed by some English-Canadians, particularly in western Canada, who saw it as either a waste of money or as "French being rammed down [their] throats" and a threat to their rights. The Reform Party of Canada initially reflected this sentiment with its opposition to bilingualism. However, anti-bilingual feelings have faded as the fears of opponents have failed to be realized and the Reform Party's successors have reconciled themselves to the policy. Despite the opposition to the policy, the number of bilingual Canadians has increased in the past thirty years and federal government language services vastly improved across the country. As well, one can receive English or French language radio and television almost anywhere in Canada, something that was not the case prior to official bilingualism. Moreover, Canada is now one of the most multicultural countries in the world – and this is as true in large urban centres in Quebec as elsewhere across the country. ===Constitutional legacy=== Trudeau's most enduring legacy is the 1982 Canadian constitution. Many hail his creation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in the 1982 constitution as having had a profoundly positive effect on the nation. It is seen as advancing civil rights and liberties and, notwithstanding clause aside, has become for many Canadians a deeply respected institution. Nevertheless, the patriation of the constitution created a strong feeling (Trudeau would call it a myth) of Quebec being left out of Confederation. This grievance was exacerbated by the failures of the Meech Lake Accord and Charlottetown Accord which Trudeau, though no longer in office, helped to defeat. The failure of the two accords revived long-dormant support for separatism in Quebec, eventually leading to the extremely close 1995 Quebec referendum on sovereignty, nearly bringing about the very result that Trudeau had so passionately opposed. ===Overview=== While Pierre Trudeau had no viable political opposition in Quebec at the federal level in his time (for instance, his Liberal party captured 74 out of 75 Quebec seats in the Canadian federal election, 1980), Quebecers characteristically hedged their bets by twice electing the diametrically opposed, pro-sovereignty ''Parti Québécois'' at the provincial level. (At the time, there was no pro-sovereignty federal party like today's Bloc Québécois.) His legacy within Quebec is somewhat mixed, and he is seen by many Quebecers, particularly in the media, academic and political establishments as a ''vendu'' (sellout). While his reputation has grown in English Canada since his retirement in 1984, it has not improved in Quebec. Trudeau remains well regarded by many Canadians. The passage of time has softened some of the strong antipathy he inspired among his opponents, although the naming of the airport after him still generated some controversy. Trudeau is seen by many as embodying the spirit of his age: youth, ambition, and anti-conformism. His energy, charisma, and confidence as prime minister are often cited as reasons for his popularity even though a large number of Canadians disapproved of his policies. ==See also== *Politics of Canada *List of Canadian general elections *Timeline of Canadian history *History of the Quebec sovereignist movement *Prime Minister nicknaming in Quebec *Death and state funeral of Pierre Trudeau ==External links== *[http://www2.marianopolis.edu/quebechistory/readings/trudeau.htm Pierre Elliott Trudeau, Quebec and the Constitution] *[http://www2.marianopolis.edu/quebechistory/docs/patriate/index.htm Exchange of correspondence between Pierre E. Trudeau and René Lévesque on the patriation of the Canadian constitution, 1981-1982] * [http://www.canadahistory.com/sections/politics/Pierre_Trudeau.htm canadahistory.com biography] * [http://www.pc.gc.ca/clmhc-hsmbc/pm/trudeau_e.asp Gravesite of the Right Honourable Pierre Elliott Trudeau] * [http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-73-73/politics_economy/trudeaumania/ Trudeaumania: A Swinger for Prime Minister] (CBC Archives) 1919 births 2000 deaths Canadian lawyers Canadian Prime Ministers Leaders of the Liberal Party of Canada Members of the Order of Canada Pierre TrudeauCan someone please find a picture of him when he was Prime Minister? The old-man look gives a very different impression of his time in office.User:Arctic.gnome 08:12, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC) Changed the sentence in the beginning that stated the draft sent many men to war, while Trudeau avoided it. This was completely inaccurate, the Canadian draft was instituted in 1940 and was known as the National Resources Mobilization Act, and did not send men to war. Only volunteers saw combat service, while conscripts such as Trudeau saw duty in Canada with the home guard. By 1944, facing a manpower shortage due to the situation in Europe, some conscripts were sent for combat during the Conscription Crisis of 1944 but few actually saw combat and even fewer were killed. As mentioned in my edit, Trudeau was willing to get involved in the war but felt doing so would betray Quebec. So I hope the edit Isn't going to cause much controversy. User:hunter1084 Did Trudeau go to the LSE? It says he did on the LSE page, but I've never heard that before. If he did, what did he study? When did he attend? Yes he did go to the LSE in the late 40's and studied under a Fabian professor whose name currently escapes me. Trudeau's socialist leanings came in large part from his time there and in Paris.User:Benw What Canadian institutions are named for Pierre Trudeau, as the article states? I am not implying that there aren't any. I'd just like to know.User:Jfitzg Since I didn't get an answer, and since I still don't know that the statement "However, a great many institutions, streets, and the like in Canada are named for Mr. Trudeau" is true, I have deleted it from the main article and left it here until someone can provide "a great many" examples of institutions and streets named for Mr. Trudeau. To my mind (which may be wrong) one of the striking characteristics of the outpouring of grief over Mr. Trudeau's death was its failure to result in any significant effort to commemorate him. As I recall, the amount of money donated to his foundation immediately after his death was small. .User:Jfitzg ==Charter of Rights & Freedoms== I qualified a couple of the statements about the Charter because they seem POV to me. The effects of the Charter are not universally considered to be profound, nor is it universally considered a valuable institution. Some POV from me: Canada still has double jeopardy (a conviction was even reinstated in a Charter case after reversal on appeal) and its ridiculous libel laws (upheld in a Charter case). Striking those down would constitute profound effects. And the Charter was so well written the Supreme Court was able to rule it doesn't apply to the common law. User:Trontonian aka Jfitzg :I added these points to the paragraph about PET's failures. What is needed to balance it is some facts about just how many Canadians consider Mr. Trudeau a great leader and some examples of advances in civil rights due to the Charter. Obviously there have been some, or even many, and a list would allow readers to make up their own minds about what is likely to be Mr. Trudeau's most important achievement. User:Trontonian 00:28, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC) Personally, I would say that the Charter is purely symbolic and did nothing to advance personal freedoms, since Canadians have always had political rights. User:Vancouverguy 00:20, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC) :That's a good null hypothesis, eh? Perhaps someone can attempt to disprove it. The Charter may actually have restricted personal freedom -- for example, through the Supreme Court's extremely lenient decisions about what constitutes a reasonable limit on rights -- which would make it more than symbolic. The decisions I'm thinkin of are the decisions on soliciting (the possibility that traffic might be slowed down constitutes a reasonable limit) and early retirement (the possibility that human resource departments might be inconvenienced constitutes a reasonable limit). User:Trontonian 16:52, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC) ::That's an odd comment, Vancouverguy, and I can't tell if you're being serious, or merely playing devil's advocate. At the very least, I would suggest that there are thousands of gay Canadians who would dispute your statement. The issue here is not "political rights," but human rights writ large. Canadians have not always had the basic rights guaranteed in the Charter. User:Deleting Unnecessary Words 18:48, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC) :::What do you mean by "guaranteed"? The notwithstanding clause seems to subvert the whole idea of a guarantee. As does a Supreme Court willing to implement unreasonable definitions of reasonable limits. User:John FitzGerald 21:28, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC) ::::Trontonian, I understand your point, but don't see how it relates to the larger discussion. Are you agreeing with Vancouverguy that the Charter is "purely symbolic" and has "done nothing to advance personal freedoms"? User:Deleting Unnecessary Words 16:26, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC) :::No, I'm saying it's largely symbolic and has done little to advance personal freedoms. The relevance of my argument to the larger discussion seems clear to me, but just in case I'll note that rights that can be eliminated for specified renewable terms at the whim of government are not rights, and neither are rights which can be suspended because their exercise interferes with the convenience of personnel departments. For example, one of the beneficial effects of the Charter has been the clarification of aboriginal rights, which allowed, for example, the Métis of Ontario to obtain hunting rights. However, these newly won rights could be suspended at any time by any government or any court which considers suspension expedient. And rights which do not exist in common law aren't rights either. User:John FitzGerald 17:46, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC) ::::So we agree on the subject of this string. We both believe that Vancouverguy is off base when he says that the Charter is "purely symbolic" and has "done nothing to advance personal freedoms," right? User:Deleting Unnecessary Words 19:09, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC) :::No, we don't agree. I said Vancouverguy's assertion was a good null hypothesis, which to me implies that it's not off base. I find it more helpful in discussing the issue than assertions that Canadians have guaranteed rights, for example. I'm also sure that people from Vancouver, like everyone else, often use exaggeration (the word "guaranteed" comes to mind) as a rhetorical device. What would be more helpful than us sitting around demonizing each other, though, would be developing an accounting of the beneficial and disadvantageous results of the Charter. That could even be a joint effort of the pros and antis, and more helpful than the sniping which has gone on about the Charter so far. I mean, I'm sure we're all well-meaning people. User:John FitzGerald 20:35, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC) ::::To ask if someone is playing devil's advocate is to question whether they are provoking "argument or discussion by supporting the opposite side," to borrow a phrase from the Oxford English Dictionary. It is not, in any way, about "demonizing" the other person. User:Deleting Unnecessary Words 01:33, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC) ::A devil's advocate is not about demonizing? I suppose strictly speaking he's not, but his purpose is to show that someone is not in heaven, which is pretty close. Anyway, what about that constructive suggestion of mine? I leave it in your hands, since I have once again officially abandoned this enterprise. User:John FitzGerald :::No, a devil's advocate is not about demonizing. If you doubt the definition I give above, please look it up in a dictionary or on Wikipedia. Nothing I said demonized another contributor. In fact, my suggestion that Vancouverguy was playing "devil's advocate" and yours that he was advancing a "null hypothesis" are remarkably similar in meaning. Think about it. User:Deleting Unnecessary Words 18:40, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC) Think about this – you are obsessing about individual words and ignoring a perfectly sensible suggestion I made for resolving this dispute. There's a word for that. And I suggest you look up the origin of "devil's advocate," then come back and see if you can tell me I was wrong. The role of the ''advocatus diaboli'' is to show that a candidate for sainthood is not saintly. I replied in what I thought was the spirit of the exchange, but apparently some people have the idea that the spirit is to solidify one's conception of one's own self-righteousness. And you can have the last word because I don't see that this exchange is going anywhere. I know what the reply will be, anyway – "I'm right, I'm right, I'm right." User:John FitzGerald :Please. You falsely accused me of acting in bad faith. I clarified my intentions, but rather than apologize, you continued to attack me. There can be no discussion of substantive issues so long as you continue with this approach to discussion. If you look back, you'll see that much of my contribution has been in the form of questions. I don't always know the answers, so I'd like others to explain their points of view to help me decide my own mind. I would also like them to abstain from personal attacks. User:Deleting Unnecessary Words 02:22, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) ::answered at User talk:Deleting Unnecessary Words User:John FitzGerald ::And, I hope, case closed at the same location. User:Deleting Unnecessary Words 18:02, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC) I've asked User:Kchishol1970 for the reasons he deleted my remarks about double jeopardy and the presumption of guilt in libel cases as "blatantly right-wing POV". If I don't hear any they're going back in. I don't think there's any dispute that these are restrictions on civil liberties, and I'm unaware of any right-wingers who are upset by them. User:Trontonian 22:56, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC) :I restored the points, but in the second last paragraph, where their (unjustifiably) contentious nature is more obvious. I also tried to balance the blatantly right-wing POV about the War Measures Act. User:Trontonian 14:49, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC) It turned out my balancing was more POV than the original, so I took it out. As I became more familiar with the article it occurred to me that it omitted some important policies of Mr. Trudeau's, so I added them. Anyway, I would like to remind people that policy is not to omit POV material but to edit it. User:Trontonian 23:13, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC) Re: Aboriginal rights - section 25 of the Charter cannot be section 33ed, and many aboriginal rights are protected under section 35 of scehdule b of the Constitution Act anyway. Also Alberta has never used s. 33, it has only threatened to in an area it does not have jurisdiction, so i removed that bit. Also libel is generally a private matter, therefore not covered by the Charter, such statments against the government are sedition and any laws regarding sedition, which at one time i believe existed, are almost certianly unconstitutional and are likely not being applied by any governments for that reason. Also Re: Devil's Advocate - the purpose of the devil's advocate is to say someone may not be worthy of sainthood, not that they are not in heaven. A devils adovacte takes an opposing position to make sure that the arguments of the other side have been proven exahustivly. One final note, the Charter has become more then symbolic, it has clearly expanded rights beyond what politicians are willing to expand them, and s. 33 is almost the ultimate taboo in Canadian politics. User:Benw ==Why I re-arranged the last paragraph== I rearranged the last paragraph so that the positive remarks were in the same place. I put the positive remarks last because that's generally the way to leave the most positive impression, and I don't want to sandbag the article to leave a negative impression (which is, on balance, the impression I have of Mr. Trudeau). Anyway, his final reputation will probably depend on events which have yet to occur. User:Trontonian 18:41, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC) ---- I think we should get a better picture, one of when he was younger, like when he was in power. User:Dgrant 09:21, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC) ---- Just a comment: There was certainly an outpouring of grief in Canada over Trudeau's death, but that feeling was considerably muted in Alberta. I'm a Yank, but I can speak to this with some authority. On the day Trudeau died, I was in the middle of a month-long work assignment near Red Deer, and I stayed in a Red Deer motel. I saw modest sorrow at the chemical plant I was working at, but it was VERY far from the kind of grief I was seeing on my TV. I likened the reaction I saw on TV to that around Princess Diana's death. Even more interesting was seeing Canadian flags around Red Deer. While flags in front of federal offices were all at half staff, most other flags around the city were never lowered. User:Dale Arnett 08:53, 14 May 2004 (UTC) Trudeau made wide array of contributions and I believe that their pretty important because if he didnt bring about those changes, we would probably be far worse. We wouldnt have those rights and freedoms we now have and we still wouldnt be able to change our laws. ==Trudeau salute== The finger article says showing the middle finger is called the "Trudeau salute" in Canada. Why's this so ? I didn't find a mention of this in this article. User:Jay 11:42, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC) :Because of a famous photo of him giving the finger to some protesters. He was well known for telling people what he thought of them. I would rather see that photo, the 'walk in the snow' photo, the canoe photo, or one of the rock star groupie photos used as an portrait, as they're much more representive of him. User:Jericho4.0 00:49, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC) ::I've copied over your explanation to that article. Are there any external links to the famous photo ? User:Jay 10:14, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) I can't say that I've heard it called the "Trudeau salute" very often, it get's mentioned now and then, but I can't say I've heard alot of people walking aroung calling it that. Benw == Double jeopardy == I see my comment about double jeopardy was removed because the Charter says that someone finally acquitted is not subject to further prosecution. The loophole is ''finally'' – i. e., by the Supreme Court. The Crown still appeals acquittals. If you remember Guy-Paul Morin, his acquittal was appealed long after the Charter came into effect, and he was convicted at his second trial (even though everyone in the country who wasn't on the jury knew he was innocent, including the guys he was in prison with). Anyway, I put the point back in. User:John FitzGerald 22:00, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC) The assertion that there are only a few circumstances in which double jeopardy applies is misleading – people are getting sentenced to life imprisonment on re-trial, so the issue is scarcely as trivial as the assertion implies – so I modified it. The only improvement I can think of concerning double jeopardy is the ruling that a conviction can no longer be substituted for an acquittal; I'll see if i can find out if that was a charter case. And it's a fact that opinion is still sharply divided about the value of the Charter. One thing not mentioned here is the opinion that it has been most beneficial to corporations. User:John FitzGerald 13:27, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC) :Substitution of a conviction was outlawed by parliament in 1975, so that pretty well defines how far PET was willing to go. User:John FitzGerald 13:40, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC) == Help == One of the things I believe distinguished Mr. Trudeau from his successors is that he was the last PM to take Canada seriously. Everyone since has acted as if Canada is a dependency of the US. I cannot, however, think of a non-POV way to introduce that point. If anyone else can I'd appreciate their adding it. User:John FitzGerald 13:50, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC) You could say, perhaps, that he was strong nationalist, amd enacted many measures designed to make Canada less dependent on the USA rather than more so, as has been the fashion in the last couple of decades. User:Peregrine981 18:44, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC) :Good idea. Thanks. The point's already made about his nationalistic policies, so only a small addition is required. I'll sleep on it before making a change, though. User:John FitzGerald :You would have to be very careful in how you describe Trudeau as a nationalist. He built his academic and political careers on his opposition to the concept of nationalism and never used the word "nationalist" to describe himself. User:HistoryBA 23:02, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC) You're right – he certainly wasn't a nationalist in the sense in which the term was used when he was PM, and the nationalists of his day certainly didn't think he was a nationalist. It's only by comparison with his neoconservative and neoliberal successors that his efforts to make Canada more independent seem nationalistic. There's probably a way to word this properly, but I'll have to think about it some more. User:John FitzGerald 00:06, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC) == Striking down the Constitution == Since the Supreme Court can't strike down the Constitution, it can't strike down the provisions of the Charter. So I took that observation out. And with that I wash my hands of this article. History is largely myth, anyway, so I'm giving up fighting against the transformation of the complex, contradictory and...''human'' political figure that Pierre Trudeau was into a two-dimensional political "hero". Even if the status of hero was clearly something that Mr. Trudeau was uninterested in. User:John FitzGerald 13:04, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC) :I tried to reword the preceding so it was less offensive. Not that anyone should have been offended, I suppose, but then I'm a Canadian. I took out all the stuff about the difference between current and past politics because it occurred to me that a more likely source of the problem is a phenomenon that happened during Mr. Trudeau's life – his supporters seemed to be deifying him in response to the absurd demonization of him by his opponents. Still not a valuable approach to one of the more imprtant figures of our time. User:John FitzGerald 15:41, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC) I hadn't looked at this article since making the preceding observation in August 2004. It seems to provide a much better idea of Mr. Trudeau now, so my thanks to all who persevered. User:John FitzGerald 13:28, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC) == Word War II record == I would like to ask anyone with relevent knowledge to add something about Trudeau regarding WWII. He was born in 1919, so he was about 20 during the outbreak of the war. This is by far the biggest event in his life prior to being prime minister. For most Canadians that old, it's the biggest event ever. I understand he, like most franchophone Quebecers, opposed the war. He could have served in oombat as an officer if he chose. He didn't. Why? Was he interviewed about this? What exactly was his stand on the war? Did he ever change it? He, as PM, went to many memorial services for WWII. Did the issue never come up. As a comparison, I can't imagine ommitting George W. Bush's Vietnam record. W's war record is always mentioned in light of the War on Terror. For instance, why send troops to combat, when he didn't go himself. So, I would have thought Trudeau's WWII record would be brought up relative to his use of the War Measures Act. For instance, why was the kidnapping of two people grounds for the War Measures Act, but Germany's conquest of Europe not. You may disagree with my point-of-view (which is fine), but I think somebody should at least say something factual about this time period in Trudeau's life. I didn't put in anything myself (on this specific topic), because I don't pretend to have the confirmed facts. I was born in Canada 34 years ago, and never heard anything of signficance of on this, from school or in the media (and I have heard and read *lots* of stuff about Trudeau). :Trudeau wasn't necessarily against the war, but in solidarity with Quebec he was against consciption and during the war campaigned for anti-consciptionist Quebec politician Jean Drapeau, saying in a speech "I had been taught to keep away from imperialistic wars". :In addition, I think the little sentence in the introduction that states "This allowed him to avoid being sent into combat, despite a draft, which forced many men his age to go to war." is categorically untrue. Although there was a draft insitituted in Canada, only volunteer soldiers were sent into combat (I've heard Canada fielded the largest 100% volunteer army during WWII), while draftees such as Trudeau guarded the home front, unlike the Americans which used large numbers of conscripts in combat (Eddie Slovik). Late in the war a handful of draftees did eventually get sent to Europe due to increasing casualties but saw very little actual combat before the end of the war. So the statement that many men were forced to go to war in Canada is essentially false and should be changed. In addition, Trudeau was actually booted out of the Officers Corps due to lack of discipline. For the most part Trudeau spent the war years at the University of Montreal, riding his Harley to school. User:hunter1084 See other meanings of words starting from letter: PPA | PB | PC | PD | PE | PF | PG | PH | PI | PJ | PK | PL | PM | PN | PO | PR | PS | PT | PU | PW | PX | PY | PZ |Words begining with Pierre_Trudeau: Pierre_Trudeau Pierre_Trudeau Pierre_Trudeau_International_Airport |
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