
::''PRC redirects here. For other uses, see PRC (disambiguation). For the historical and cultural entity, see China.'' The '''People's Republic of China (PRC), commonly referred to as China''', is a state in East Asia. Since its founding in 1949, it has been led by the Communist Party of China (CPC). It is the world's most populous country, with a population of over 1.3 billion people, most of whom are classified as the Han Chinese ethnicity. It is the largest country in area in East Asia and the [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2147rank.html fourth largest] in the world, after Russia, Canada, and the United States. The PRC borders 14 countries: Afghanistan, Bhutan, Myanmar/Burma, India, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Mongolia, Nepal, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, Tajikistan and Vietnam. Although it officially remains a communist state, the PRC has considerably privatization its economy in the past three decades. Politically, it remains a one-party authoritarian state from its true communist days. The PRC claims sovereignty over but has never controlled Taiwan and some neighboring islands, which are controlled by the Republic of China. The PRC considers those areas as parts of itself, an eternally complete and indivisible country. This claim is controversial with the ROC considering itself an independent state. See China and Political status of Taiwan for more information. The term "mainland China" is sometimes used to denote the area under the PRC's rule, usually excluding the two Special Administrative Regions, Hong Kong and Macau. The PRC is sometimes also referred to as "Red China", especially by its political opponents and critics, in reference to the association between the color red and communism. ==History== ''Main articles: History of China, History of the People's Republic of China, Timeline of Chinese history'' See also: Chinese imperialism After World War II, the Chinese Civil War between the Communist Party of China and the Kuomintang ended in 1949 with the Communists in control of mainland China and the Kuomintang in control of Taiwan and some outlying islands of Fujian. On October 1, 1949, Mao Zedong declared the People's Republic of China, establishing a communist state, and proclaiming that "China has stood up." Supporters of the Maoist Era, consisting mostly of poorer Chinese and Marxism foreign experts, claim that under Mao, China's unity and sovereignty was assured for the first time in a century, and there was development of infrastructure, industry, healthcare, and education, which raised living standards of average Chinese. They also believe that campaigns such as the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution were essential in jumpstarting China's development and purifying its culture. Supporters may also doubt statistics or accounts given for death tolls or other damages incurred by Mao's campaigns. However, critics of Mao's regime, which consists of the majority of foreign experts and observers as well as many Chinese people, especially the emergent middle class and more liberal-minded city dwellers, claim that Mao's administration imposed strict controls over everyday life, and believe that campaigns such as the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution contributed to or caused millions of deaths, incurred severe economic costs, and damaged China's cultural heritage. The Great Leap Forward in particular preceded a massive famine in China which, according to credible Western and Eastern [http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm sources], 20 - 30 million people died; most Western and many Chinese analysts attribute this to the Great Leap Forward, while others, including Mao at the time, attribute this to natural disasters; still others doubt this figure entirely, or claim that many more people died due to famine or other consequences of political chaos during the rule of Chiang Kai-Shek. Following the dramatic economic failures of the early 1960s, Mao stepped down from his position as chairman of the People's Republic. The National People's Congress elected Liu Shaoqi as Mao's successor. Mao remained head of the Party but was removed from day to day management of economic affairs which came under the control of a more moderate leadership under the dominant influence of Liu Shaoqi, Deng Xiaoping and others who initiated economic reforms. In 1966 Mao launched the Cultural Revolution, which is viewed by his opponents (including both Western analysts and many Chinese people who were youth at the time) as a strike back at his rivals by mobilizing the youth of the country in support of his thought and purging the moderate leadership, but is viewed by his supporters as an experiment in direct democracy and a genuine attempt at purging Chinese society of corruption and other negative influences. Disorder followed but gradually under the leadership of Zhou Enlai moderate forces regained influence. After Mao's death, Deng Xiaoping, seen as the leader of the economic reformists, succeeded in winning the power struggle, and Mao's widow, Jiang Qing and her associates, the Gang of Four (China), who had assumed control of the country, were arrested and put on trial. Since then, the government has gradually and greatly loosened governmental control over people's personal lives, and began transitioning China's planned economy into a mixed economy. Supporters of the economic reforms, who tend to be middle-class Chinese and most left-center to right Western observers, point to the rapid development of the consumer and export sectors of the economy, the creation of an urban middle class that now constitutes 15% of the population, higher living standards (which is shown via dramatic increases in GDP per capita, consumer spending, life expectancy, literacy rate, and total grain output) and a much wider range of personal rights and freedoms for average Chinese as evidence of the success of the reforms. Critics of the economic reforms, who tend to be poorer workers and peasants in China and leftist Western observers, claim that the reforms have caused wealth disparity, environmental pollution, rampant corruption, widespread unemployment associated with layoffs at inefficient state-owned enterprises, and has introduced often unwelcome cultural influences. Consequently they believe that China's culture has been corrupted, her poor have been reduced to a hopeless adject underclass, and that the social stability is threatened. They are also of the opinion that various political reforms, such as moves towards popular elections, have been unfairly nipped in the bud. Despite these concessions to capitalism, the Communist Party of China remains in control and has maintained repressive policies against groups which it feels are threats, such as Falun Gong and the separatist movement in Tibet. Supporters of these policies, who tend to be the majority of rural Chinese people and a smaller majority of urban Chinese people, as well as a minority of observers, claim that these policies safeguard stability in a society that is torn apart by class differences and rivalries, has no tradition of civil participation, and limited rule of law. Opponents of these policies, who tend to be a minority of Chinese people, most Chinese dissidents living abroad, many people from Hong Kong or Taiwan, ethnic minorities like Tibetans, and most Westerners, claim that these policies severely violate norms of human rights that the international community recognizes, and further claim that this results in a police state, which creates an atmosphere of fear and ignorance. The People's Republic of China adopted its current constitution of the People's Republic of China on December 4, 1982. == Politics == :''Main article: Politics of China'' :''This section is on the politics of Mainland China. See also: Chinese nationalism, Propaganda in the People's Republic of China, Imperialism in Asia, Politics of Taiwan, Hong_Kong#Politics, and Macau#Politics.'' [[Image:China%2C_Mao_%282%29.jpg|thumb|left|230px|Mao Zedong declares the founding of the PRC in 1949]] In the technical terminology of political science the PRC was a communist state for much of the 20th century, and is still considered a communist state by many, though not all, political scientists. Attempts to simply characterize the nature of the political structure of China fail. The regime has variously been described as authoritarianism, communism, socialism and various combinations of those terms. It has also been described as a communist government. This may be called state capitalist by more left-leaning communists. It appears China is slowly becoming capitalist. The government of the PRC is controlled by the Communist Party of China. While there have been some moves toward political liberalization, in that contested elections are now held at the village level and legislatures have shown some assertiveness from time to time, the party retains effective control over governmental appointments. While the state uses authoritarian methods to deal with challenges to its rule, it simultaneously attempts to reduce dissent by improving the economy, allowing expression of personal grievances, and giving lenient treatment to persons expressing dissent whom the regime does not believe are organizers. Censorship of political speech is routine, and the Communist Party ruthlessly suppresses any protests and organizations that it considers a threat to its power, as was the case after the Tiananmen Square protests. However there are limits to the repression that the Party is willing or able to achieve. The media have become increasingly active in publicizing social problems and exposing corruption and inefficiency at lower levels of government. The Party has also been rather unsuccessful at controlling information, and in some cases has had to change policies in response to public outrage. Although organized opposition against the Party is not tolerated, demonstrations over local issues are frequent and increasingly tolerated. Recently, under increasingly showing himself as conservative Hu Jintao, the PRC has tended to increase crackdowns on reporters, even those working for foreign papers, such as the New York Times. The support that the Communist Party of China has among the Chinese population is unclear, as there are no national elections, and private conversations and anecdotal information often reveals conflicting views. Many in China appear appreciative of the role that the government plays in maintaining social stability, which has allowed the economy to grow without interruption. Political concerns in China include the growing gap between rich and poor in the PRC, and the growing discontent with widespread corruption within the leadership. There are some other parties in PRC. The CPC cooperates with these parties through a special conference, called the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC) led by the CPC, rather than elections. Nevertheless, the effect of the other parties on the government remains minimal. As an advisory body of the CPC without real power, the C.P.P.C.C. is quite like an external eye, although there are officers from the CPPCC in almost all government departments. === Ethnic issues === The PRC describes itself as a multiethnic state providing ethnic autonomy in the form of autonomous entities of China. PRC policy gives advantages to ethnic minorities in areas such as high school or college admission and government employment. It also officially condemns Han chauvinism. However, it currently faces independence movements in Tibet, Xinjiang, and to a lesser degree, Inner Mongolia. Independence groups and many foreign observers are critical of the PRC's ethnic policies. They consider practices such as the organization and generous financial encouragement of Han Chinese movement into non-Han Chinese areas, to be chauvinistic and colonialism, bent on demographically swamping non-Han Chinese areas and reducing the possibility that any independence movement could succeed. Within China, many people are also critical of the above policies. For example, Han Chinese in Xinjiang or Inner Mongolia tend to be resentful and perceive of themselves as being treated as "second-class citizens" as a result of policies that favour minorities. Many people also consider these policies to have encouraged the formation of separatist movements and to have threatened the territorial integrity of China. == Foreign relations == ''Main article: Foreign relations of the People's Republic of China'' The People's Republic of China maintains diplomatic relations with most countries in the world, but makes acknowledging its claim to Taiwan and severing any official ties with the Republic of China (ROC) government a prerequisite for diplomatic exchanges. It also actively opposes foreign travels by current and former political officials of Taiwan, such as Lee Teng-hui and Chen Shui-bian. The PRC also opposes travel by the Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama due to his leadership of the Government of Tibet in Exile and Li Hongzhi, the spiritual leader of the Falun Gong, who lives in exile in the US. [[Image:Clinton and jiang.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Jiang Zemin and Bill Clinton]] In 1971, the PRC replaced the Republic of China as the sole representative for "China" in the United Nations and as one of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council; it is also considered a founding member although the PRC was not in control at the founding of the UN. (See China and the United Nations) It was for a time a member and leader of the Non-Aligned Movement, but now is an observer. Much of the current foreign policy is based on the concept of China's peaceful rise. Sino-American relations have been strained several times in the past few decades by Japan's refusal to acknowledge its past war crime violations, most notable among which is The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang. China is often criticized for human rights abuses, with foreign relations suffering greatly following the Tiananmen Square Massacre in 1989. Human rights is a perennial issue that is brought up in the US Congress, but since the Clinton years, human rights has been decoupled from economic negotiations, such as Most Favored Nation status. In May 1999, a B-2 stealth bomber dropped three 2000-pound satellite guided bombs on the Chinese embassy in Belgrade during the Kosovo conflict, killing three Chinese reporters. The United States insisted this was a mistake, showing with documentary evidence that the selection of the building as a target was based on an outdated map produced by the U.S. National Imagery and Mapping Agency (now known as the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency), which incorrectly identified the building as an arms procurement agency of the Yugoslav government. Although the U.S. dispatched a special envoy to China to explain the error, the Chinese government continued to insist that the action was deliberate. In April 2001, a U.S. EP-3 propeller reconnaissance plane operating in what the US claims international waters off the Chinese Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and the Chinese claims within its EEZ, while conducting signals reconnaissance was "buzzed" by a Chinese jet fighter, leading to an accidental collision in which the fighter crashed and its pilot was killed. The damaged U.S. plane struggled to land on China's Hainan Island, where its 24 crewmembers were detained for 12 days and sensitive equipment from the craft was confiscated. Another source of friction was the 1999 Cox report, which revealed PRC espionage compromising U.S. nuclear secrets dating back several decades. In addition to Taiwan, China is involved in several other territorial disputes. The PRC makes all of these claims on irredentism grounds, while the opposing claimants tend to view the PRC as being motivated by resources or military considerations: *With India: **Aksai Chin, administered by China, claimed by India **Arunachal Pradesh / South Tibet, administered by India, claimed by China *Over islands on the East China Sea or South China Sea: **Paracel Islands, administered by China, claimed by Vietnam and the Republic of China **Spratly Islands: the People’s Republic of China, the Republic of China (Taiwan), and Vietnam each claim sovereignty over the entire group, while Malaysia, the Philippines, and Brunei claim parts of the group. **Diaoyu Islands / Senkaku Islands, administered by Japan, claimed by the PRC and the Republic of China In 2004, Russia agreed to cede Yinlong Island as well as one half of Heixiazi Island to China, ending a long-standing border dispute between Russia and China. Both islands are found at the confluence of the Amur and Ussuri Rivers, and were until then administered by Russia and claimed by China. The event has fostered feelings of reconciliation and cooperation, but it has also sparked some discontent on both sides, with some Russians unhappy about the loss of territory, and some Chinese unhappy that the Chinese government has effectively surrendered claims over the other half of Heixiazi Island by accepting the Russian offer. The transfer has been ratified by both the Chinese National People's Congress and the Russian State Duma but has yet to be carried out. Outside official opinion, it is popular for nationalists to make Irredentism claims to Mongolia, Tuva and Outer Manchuria, as well as (less commonly) the Ryukyu Islands, Bhutan, Sikkim, Ladakh, the Hukawng Valley in northern Myanmar, and Central Asia southeast of Lake Balkhash. See also: Political status of Taiwan == Military == ''Main article: People's Liberation Army'' People's_Liberation_Army_soldiers_march_in_Beijing">Image:PLA_soldiers.jpg|left|thumb|200px|People's Liberation Army soldiers march in Beijing The PRC maintains the largest standing army in the world, although there is a general belief both within the PLA and among outside observers that numbers are of limited usefulness in estimating the power of a military. The People's Liberation Army (PLA) includes the PLAN and PLAAF. The PLA's official budget for 2005 is $30 billion, but this does not include money used for foreign weapons purchases, military-related R&D, or the paramilitary People's Armed Police, and critics label it a deliberately misleading low estimate. A recent RAND [http://www.rand.org/publications/MG/MG260/index.html study] estimates that the total military spending of the PRC is 1.4-1.7 times as large as the official military budget. By some estimates of true spending, the PRC's military spending is second only to the US's of over $400 billion. The PRC, despite possession of nuclear weapons and delivery systems, is widely seen both inside of China and on the outside as having only limited ability to project military power beyond its borders and is not generally considered to be a true superpower although it is widely seen as a major regional power. This is due to the limited effectiveness of its navy (lack of aircraft carriers) and air force (much less flight training time, older planes). == Political divisions== ''Main article: Political divisions of China'' The People's Republic of China has administrative control over 22 provinces (省); the government of the People's Republic of China considers Taiwan Province (台湾), which is actually controlled by the Republic of China, to be its 23rd province. (See Political status of Taiwan for more information.) Apart from provinces there are 5 autonomous regions (自治区) containing concentrations of several minorities; 4 municipalities (直辖市) for China's largest cities and 2 Special Administrative Regions (SAR) (特别行政区) governed by the PRC. The 22 provinces, 5 autonomous regions and 4 municipalities can be collectively referred to as "mainland China", a term which usually excludes Hong Kong, Macao, and Taiwan. The following are a list of administrative divisions of areas under the control of the People's Republic of China.
== Geography ==
''Main article: Geography of China''
[[Image:Smaller map of China.png|Map of China with most important placenames|thumb|300px|The PRC controls much of eastern Asia areas in peach while the Republic of China consists of a few yellow-shaded islands including Taiwan. See the :Image:china_pol01.jpg for more detail.]]
The PRC is the fourth largest country in the world and contains a large variety of landscapes. In the east, along the shores of the Yellow Sea and the East China Sea, are found extensive and densely populated alluvium; the shore of the South China Sea is more mountainous and southern China is dominated by hill country and lower mountain ranges. In the central-east are found the river deltas of China's two major rivers, the Huang He and Yangtze River (Chang Jiang). Other major rivers include the Xi Jiang, Mekong, Brahmaputra and Amur.
To the west, major mountain ranges, notably the Himalaya with China's highest point Mount Everest, and high plateaus feature among the more arid landscape of deserts such as the Takla-Makan and the Gobi Desert.
Due to a prolonged drought and poor agricultural practices dust storm have become usual in the spring in China. According to China's Environmental Protection Agency, the Gobi Desert has been expanding "like a tsunami" and is a major source of dust storms which affect Mainland China and other parts of northeast Asia such as Taiwan, Korea and Japan. Dust from the northern plains has been tracked to the West Coast of the United States. River management (human waste dumping, factory pollution, and water extraction for irrigation and drinking) and dust erosion are problems affecting other countries that have become recent important concerns for relations between China and its neighboring countries.
== Economy ==
''Main article: Economy of the People's Republic of China''
The CCP reformulates many aspects of its public ideology as "with Chinese characteristics" and this is true of its economy as well, which it calls Socialism with Chinese characteristics. Beginning in late 1978 the Chinese leadership has been Chinese economic reform from a Soviet Union-style centrally planned economy to a more market-oriented economy but still within a rigid political framework of Communist Party control. To this end the authorities have switched to a system of household responsibility in agriculture in place of the old collectivization, increased the authority of local officials and plant managers in industry, permitted a wide variety of small-scale enterprise in services and light manufacturing, and opened the economy to increased foreign trade and investment. Prices controls were also relaxed. This has resulted in mainland China's shift from a command economy to a mixed economy with both communist and capitalist tendencies.
The government has tended to not emphasize equality as when it first began and instead emphasized raising personal income and consumption and introducing new management systems to help increase productivity. The government also has focused on foreign trade as a major vehicle for economic growth, for which purpose it set up over 2000 Special Economic Zones (SEZ) where investment laws are relaxed in order to attract foreign capital. The result has been a quadrupling of Gross Domestic Product since 1978. In 1999, with its 1.25 billion people and a GDP of just $3,800 per capita, the PRC became the sixth largest economy in the world by exchange rate and third largest in the world after the European Union and the United States by purchasing power. The average annual income of a Chinese worker is $1,300. Chinese economic development is believed to be among the fastest in the world, about 7-8% per year according to Chinese government statistics. China is now a member of the World Trade Organization.
Mainland China has a reputation as being a low-cost manufacturer, particularly due to abundant cheap labor. A worker at a Chinese factory typically costs a company 50 cents to $1 per hour (average $0.86), compared with $2 to $2.50 per hour in Mexico and $8.50 to more than $20 for the U.S. By the end of 2001, the average electricity price in Guangdong Province was 0.72 yuan (9 US cents) per kilowatt hour, much higher than the average level on the Chinese mainland of 0.368 yuan (4 US cents). The PRC officially abolished direct budgetary outlays for exports on Jan. 1, 1991. Nonetheless, it is widely believed that many of mainland China's manufactured exports receive other types of export subsidies.
Other forms of export subsidies involve guaranteed provision of energy, raw materials or labor supplies. Exports of some agricultural products, such as corn and cotton, still benefit from direct export subsidies. However, the PRC substantially reduced the level of corn export subsidies in 1999 and 2000 essentially to the point of elimination.
Preferential tax incentives are another example of export subsidies. China is attempting to harmonize the system of taxes and duties it imposes on enterprises, domestic and foreign alike. As a result, preferential tax and duty policies that benefit exporters in special economic zones and coastal cities have been targeted for revision. Chinese exports to the United States were $125 billion in 2002; American exports to China were $19 billion. The discrepancy is largely attributable to the fact that the U.S. consumes far more than it produces and that Chinese people paid low wages cannot afford the US's expensive products. Another factor cited by some people is the unfavorable exchange rate between the Renminbi and the United States dollar to which it is pegged. Chinese exports to the United States are rising 20% per annum, much faster than U.S. exports to China. With the elimination of clothing quotas, China stands to take over a large chunk of the worldwide textile industry. [http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/26/business/worldbusiness/26CHIN.html?th], [http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/02/business/02CHIN.html?th]
In 2003, China's GDP in terms of purchasing power parity reached $6.4 trillion, becoming the [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html second-largest in the world]. Using conventional measurements it is ranked 7th. With its large population this still gives an average GNP per person of only an estimated $5,000, about 1/7th that of the United States. The officially reported growth rate for 2003 was 9.1%. It was estimated by the CIA that in 2002 agriculture accounted for 14.5% of China's GNP, industry and construction for 51.7% and services for 33.8%. Average rural income is about one third that of urban areas, a gap which has widened in recent decades.
== Demographics ==
''Main article: Demographics of China''
Officially the PRC views itself as a multi-ethnic nation with 56 recognized List of Chinese ethnic groups. The majority Han Chinese ethnicity makes up about 93% of the population and is the majority over about half of the area of the PRC. The Han Chinese can also be conceived as a large category bringing together many diverse ethnic subgroups sharing common cultural and linguistic characteristics.
The People's Republic of China, in an attempt to limit its Population explosion, has adopted a policy which limits urban families (Nationalities of China such as Tibetans are an exception) to one child policy and rural families to two children when the first is female. Because males are considered to be more economically valuable in rural areas, there appears to be a high incidence of sex selective abortion and child abandonment in rural areas to ensure that the second child is male. (See National Geographic's China's Lost Children). This policy only applies to the Han majority.
By 2000 this has resulted in a sex ratio at birth of 117 boys being born for every 100 girls which is substantially higher than the natural rate (106 to 100) (but comparable to the ratios in places such as the Caucasus, Taiwan, Hong Kong and South Korea). Although some of this problematic ratio is attributable to sexism, recently, it has been found that it correlates with hepatitis as well. The PRC government is attempting to mitigate this problem by emphasizing the worth of women and has gone so far as to criminalize medical providers from disclosing to parents the sex of an expected baby. The result of the sex ratio bias is that there are now 30-40m Chinese males who cannot marry Chinese women, as there aren't enough available. Apart from emigration (or perhaps even polyandry), this may cause an increase in prostitution.
The majority Han Chinese speak varieties of Chinese spoken language, which can be regarded as either one language or a family of languages. The largest subdivision of spoken Chinese is Mandarin (linguistics), with more speakers than any other language on Earth. A standardized version of Mandarin based on the Beijing dialect, known as Putonghua, is taught in schools and used as the official language of the entire country.
== Public health ==
''Main articles: Public health in China and Environment of China''
[[Image:China.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Celebrating victory over SARS]]
The PRC has several emerging public health problems: health problems related to air and water pollution, a progressing AIDS epidemic and hundreds of millions of tobacco smoking. The HIV epidemic, in addition to the usual routes of infection, was exacerbated in the past by unsanitary practices used in the collection of blood in rural areas. The problem with tobacco is complicated by the concentration of most cigarette sales in a government controlled monopoly. The government, dependent on tobacco revenue, seems hesitant in its response to the tobacco compared with other public health problems.
Hepatitis B is endemic in mainland China, with a large percentage of the population contracting the disease; about 10% of these are seriously affected. Often this causes liver failure or liver cancer, a common form of death in China. Hepatitis has also recently been found to have resulted in fewer non-males being born (kills female sperm; the higher male to female ratio than is normal for most countries). A program initiated in 2002 will attempt over the next 5 years to vaccination all newborns in mainland China.
On November 2002, the pneumonia-like SARS surfaced in Guangdong province. During the early stages of the epidemic, China suppressed news of the outbreak both internally and abroad, resulting to the spread of the epidemic into neighboring Hong Kong, Vietnam, and other countries via international travelers. Within China, 5327 reported cases and 348 deaths were confirmed, making it the hardest SARS-hit country to date. Cases of SARS failed to emerge through late-2004 and early-2005, however [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/health/15sars.html], and on 19 May, 2004, WHO announces China is free of further cases of SARS.
Another problem China faces is the strings of avian flu outbreaks in recent years among local poultry and birds, along with a number of its citizens. While the virus is currently mainly animal-human transmissible (with only two well documented cases of human-human have been to the present known of to scientists), experts expect an avian flu pandemic that would affect the region, when it morphs to be human-human transmissible.
== Space program ==
''Main article: Space program of China''
On October 15, 2003, using a Long March rocket and Shenzhou 5, the PRC became the third country to put a human being into outer space through its own endeavors.
[[Image:China_%28172%29.jpg|right|thumb|150px|Launch of the Long March rocket]]
The country had plans for a manned space program as early as the 1970s, with "Project 714" and the intended Shuguang manned spacecraft. Because of a series of political and economic setbacks, the programs for a manned flight never came to fruition until 2003.
The Long March rocket and Shenzhou 5 carried Yang Liwei inside the Shenzhou 5 spacecraft into Earth orbit, where it remained for 21 hours, making a total of 14 revolutions.
Some specialists regard the Shenzhou spacecraft as based on Russia's Soyuz spacecraft, a design several decades old.
The PRC's burgeoning program is considered to be cause for concern in some quarters. A United States Congressional report following the 2003 launch said, "While one of the strongest immediate motivations for this program appears to be political prestige, China's efforts almost certainly will contribute to improved military space systems in the 2010-2020 timeframe." Others are less impressed. A week after the launch, an [http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=229586 editorial] in the Times of India called it "'China's Late Creep Forward,' given that Beijing is attempting to showcase a four-decade-old technology". For example, today, the US Air Force's primary objective is to move into dominance of space.
Whether China's advances in this area will produce another space race remains to be seen.
== Culture ==
''Main article: Culture of China''
China's traditional values were derived from the orthodox version of Confucianism/conservatism, which was taught in schools and was even part of imperial civil service examinations. However, the term Confucianism is somewhat problematic in that the system of thought which reached it high-water mark in Qing Dynasty imperial China was in fact composed of several strains of thought, including Legalism, which in many ways departed from the original spirit of Confucianism; indeed by the height of imperial China, the right of the individual ethical conscience and the democratic right of criticism bad government and demanding change had largely been prohibited by "orthodox" thinkers. Currently, there are neo-Confucians who believe that contrary to that line of thought, democratic ideals and human rights are quite competible with traditional Confucian "Asian values". See [http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccba/cear/issues/fall97/graphics/special/debary/debary.htm]
The leaders who directed the efforts to change Chinese society after the establishment of the People's Republic of China in 1949 were raised in the old society and had been marked with its values. Although they were conscious revolutionaries, they had no intention of transforming Chinese culture totally. As practical administrators, PRC leaders sought to change some traditional aspects, such as rural land tenure and education, while preserving others, such as the family structure. Indeed, many observers believe that the Communist period following 1949 is very much in continuity with traditional Chinese history, rather than revolutionary--much like before, the masses accepted the views of the ruling party without much protest. The new government was seen as having who had assumed the Mandate of Heaven, taking over from the old regime and establishing a new dynasty with the blessing of the gods. Just as in the imperial age, the ruler (such as Mao Zedong) was revered and generally seen as without fault and worthy of praise. Change in Chinese society, therefore, has been less than total and consistent than claimed by official spokesmen.
At various times in the history of the PRC, many aspects of traditional Chinese culture including art, literature, linguistic forms, to name a few, have been sought by the regime or prominent movements (such as during the Cultural Revolution by the Red Guards) as vestiges of feudalism, regressive and harmful. However, China has since moved away from its days of reforming all traditional art forms, such as the "reformation" of Beijing opera to conform to Chinese propaganda. As time passes, much of traditional Chinese culture has been accepted by the people and regime as an integral part of Chinese society; indeed, Chinese national policy often lauds these as important achievements of the Chinese civilization, and emphasizes them as being important in forming a Chinese national identity. The PRC has also promoted feelings of nationalism in recent years, regarded by many observers as an effort to provide legitimacy for its rule.
* Chinese art
* Chinese cuisine
* Chinese language
* Chinese written language
* List of famous Chinese people
* Cinema of China
* Music of China
* Religion in China
* Holidays in the People's Republic of China
== Miscellaneous topics ==
''Main article: List of China-related topics''
* Chinese law
* Education in China
* Communications in China
* Environment of China
* Human rights in China
* Science and technology in China
* Police in China
* Transportation in China
* Railways in China
* Nationalities of China
==References==
*[http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html CIA World Factbook 2002/2004]
*[http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/18902.htm Background Note: China U.S. Department of State website]
== Further reading ==
* Ross Terrill, The New Chinese Empire: And What It Means for the United States, Basic Books, hardcover, 400 pages, ISBN 0465084125
== External links ==
===Government===
*[http://www.china.org.cn/english/index.htm China.org.cn] China's Official Gateway
===News===
*[http://202.84.17.11/en/index.htm Xinhua] government news agency
*[http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/home/index.html China Daily]
*[http://www.chinaonline.com/ China Online]
*[http://english.eastday.com/ Eastday] Shanghai-based
*[http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/ People's Daily Online]
*[http://www.scmp.com/ South China Morning Post] Hong Kong-based
*[http://www.HavenWorks.com/world/china HavenWorks - China News] news headline links
*[http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/China Yahoo! News- Full Coverage: China] news headline links
===Overviews===
*[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1287798.stm BBC News - ''Country Profile: China'']
*[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/asia_pacific/2004/china/default.stm BBC News - In Depth: Changing China] ongoing coverage
*[http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html CIA World Factbook - ''China'']
*[http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/0,7368,467721,00.html Guardian Unlimited - ''Special Report: China''] ongoing coverage
*[http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/cntoc.html Library of Congress - ''Country Study: China''] data as of July 1987
*[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/red/ PBS Frontline - ''China in the Red''] documentary covering 1998-2001
===Directories===
*[http://search.looksmart.com/p/browse/us1/us317916/us559898/us559967/us559976/ LookSmart - ''China''] directory category
*[http://dmoz.org/Regional/Asia/China/ Open Directory Project - ''China''] directory category
*[http://dir.yahoo.com/Regional/Countries/China/ Yahoo! - ''China''] directory category
===Tourism===
*
===Other===
* [http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/1921/ Go Taikonauts!] Chinese citizen's page devoted to China's space program
* [http://www.globalpolitician.com/articles.asp?ID=225 Chinese Threat to American Leadership in Space]
* [http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/shenzhou_china_archive.html Space.com] articles on China's space activities
* [http://www.olympicwatch.org/ OlympicWatch.org] human rights in China and the Beijing 2008 Olympics
* [http://www.ifex.org/en/content/view/full/147/ Censorship in China]
* [http://www.arachina.com/ China International Travel Service OF Guilin - JP ]
* [http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/ China History Forum]
* [http://www.chinaorbit.com ChinaOrbit.com] general information
* [http://www.globalpolitician.com/articles.asp?ID=341 The Dragon's Dawn: China as a Rising Imperial Power] February 11, 2005
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/12/international/asia/12CHIN.html?tntemail1 Chinese politics]: New York Times June 12, 2003 (login is required)
Communist states
East Asian countries
People's Republic of China
Republics
Disputed territories
People's Republic of China
ka:ჩინეთი
la:Respublica Populi Sinarum
lv:Ķīna
ms:China
nds:Volksrepubliek China
simple:People's Republic of China
th:สาธารณรัฐประชาชนจีน
vi:Trung Qu%E1%BB%91c
---- ''An event mentioned in this article is an Template:October 1 selected anniversaries.'' ------- For earlier material see Talk:China/old, Talk:China/Archive 1 and Talk:China/Archive 2 Talk:China/Archive 3 Talk:China/Archive 4 Talk:China/Archive 5 Talk:China/Archive 6 Talk:China/Archive 7 ----- == To Ran == As a freshman here, I was surprised by the languages and words in the China Politics, Foreign Relations and Military. They are not NPOV. The POV is critic but not neutral. Some words are bias and the others are guessing. That's not objective. User:Pashan 12:57, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) :I agree with you, those sections are not NPOV at all. But replacing them with the opposite POV isn't the way to solve the problem. :I was part of an effort earlier to NPOVize the history section. You can still see how it was done: "A says X because of P, and B says Y because of Q..." and so on. This way, the history section encompasses a huge span of views, from people who believe that the Great Leap Forward was great and didn't kill anyone to the people who believe that it killed 40 million people; from people who think that Deng's reforms were all good and will make China a modern country to people who think Deng's reforms were all bad and will cause China's demise; and so on. All sorts of views are rolled up in that section. You can take a look at it for reference. :Unfortunately I don't know that much about the topics you're working on, so you'll have to work those out with others here. (Many of them have very negative opinions of China's political system, so, for the sake of NPOV you'll need to keep them happy too. That's where the fun of it is. ;) ) But if you put back what you have now, it'll get reverted for sure, again and again. That frustrates everyone, doesn't accomplish anything, and certain isn't how NPOV is done. :Welcome to Wikipedia, btw. ;) -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 19:48, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC) ::Thanks for that--User:Pashan User_talk: Pashan 15:14, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC) ==Diaoyu Islands== On ''Adminstered'' vs. ''controlled'' Yes in terms of administrative hierachy it is part of Okinawa prefecture. But the Japanese authorities do not exercise normal administration over the islands. They are patrol by the navy. In reality the authorities aren't able to treat them as ordinary islands like many other those in the Southwest Islands or in the Pacific. :Okay, is there any difference between how Japan controls the Diaoyu Islands, and how Japan (or any other country) controls other uninhabited islands or regions? (Such islands probably don't need departments for education or healthcare. ;) ) -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 22:30, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC) What if a Japanese want to visit the island, say for research purpose, does she/he have to apply with the Japan Self-Defense Forces? Or is it the same like going to the Iwo Jima? Bear in mind designating an island as Izu_Islands or national park is also an act of administration. -- 17:56, January 27, 2005, UTC ==Page moves of "X in People's Republic of China " articles== ''It was wikipedia:requested moves that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved:'' ====X in People's Republic of China → X in China==== * Also '''X of People's Republic of China → X of China * Also People's Republic of China's X → China's X''' * etc. There are a number of articles and categories with titles that use "People's Republic of China" in the title where just "China" would be more suitable, on grounds of "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)". For instance People's Republic of China's trademark law and many other examples. The use of "China" (in reference to current events and situations) in modern news media and everyday usage always refers to the territory, population, and society that is the People's Republic of China... the only political controversy is over whether China includes Taiwan or not. The term "Republic of China" is always used in full (or abbreviated to "ROC") — that is, the term "China" alone (in reference to current events and situations) never refers to the Republic of China. For instance, when the news media refer to "China's economy" (a major topic these days), it is always the People's Republic of China's economy that is being referred to. Exceptions: there are currently separate full articles on China and People's Republic of China, and History of China and History of the People's Republic of China. These are therefore not simple page moves, and are outside the scope of this "requested moves" page. Note: the article Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Political NPOV would be edited in accordance with the outcome of this vote and the votes below on ROC/Taiwan issues. However, the votes are ''not'' linked: voting for one does not imply voting for the other. -- User:Curps 22:35, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Support with condition PRC/China gets to use the term "China" as the name of the political entity; meanwhile, ROC/Taiwan gets to use the term "Taiwan" as the name of the political entity. Taiwan and ROC are interchangable as China and PRC when these terms are used to refering political entities. When the term "China" is being used in either political context or geographical context, it strictly refers to the territory under PRC jurisdiction. Territories outside of the current PRC jurisdiction depends on the context such as historical territories would be mentioned as part of historical territory. Taiwan would be only claimed by China as part of China, but not regarded as part of China. Provinces of China and the political divisions of China refers to the provinces of PRC with her claim over Taiwan. No articles of China would make Taiwan as part of it, only make claims of it. ROC is not China(here, PRC) or part of China(here, PRC). ROC should not be listed in a article which make it look like part of China/PRC.User:Mababa 04:59, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) **Saying the ROC and Taiwan are the same is not neutral. See [http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-10/13/content_382036.htm this (from the PRC)], [http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2004/10/12/2003206535/print and this (from Lee Teng-hui)] for example, regarding the criticism of Chen Shui-bian for making such a claim. Certainly in the many times I've heard "China" being used, it does not strictly refer to, either in a politically, and especially and a geographical and cultural context, to the PRC. Your POV is one supporting Taiwan independence. We must represent all sides here. What if we regarded both the PRC and ROC to be part of China? What if we want to be ambiguous? What you propose is certainly not NPOV. --User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 05:31, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) ***Yeah... I do see what you mean. Your statement "''What if we regarded both the PRC and ROC to be part of China''" is an obvious unification supporter's POV and I do not believe Wiki should have any thing to do with this statement though. Further, I do not think my proposal is supporting Taiwan independence by all means. I do not believe my proposal would ever damage PRC's claim over Taiwan nor bolster it. It is sheerly for connecting common perception to the Wikipedia so that we are not locked in our ivory tower and make a twisted encyclopedia that is not recognizable. PRC's claim would always be addressed as her claims as usually being processed here. There is a strong and clear need to have China to be directed to PRC in this Wikipeida for those readers searching information on PRC, and there is obviously some articles written not inline with the current naming convention and used China as political entity refering to PRC. I am only proposing a fair and easy solution so that no straneous or dramatic changes would be required to fix the current situation. I have been following the convention NPOV policy and most ROC related articles are quick to be fixed. Now I wish same priniciple would be applied to the POV in some articles using the term "China" as a political entity or we should change this policy to another fair and neutral usage. With the current poll land sliding toward opposition, I am confident that the wisdom envisioned in the NPOV convention dictating the term "China" would not be used refering any political entity (and often used to include ROC and PRC together under a political entity called as China) would be enforced and carried out.User:Mababa 22:25, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) ****China can be a geographical or a cultural area, that both mainland China and Taiwan belongs to. Saying Taiwan is part of this geographical or cultural concept of China does not necessarily means pro-unification. — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 13:01, Feb 19 2005 (UTC) *Conditionally oppose - This not an issue of which political entity is China--that was the Cold War debate. This is over the definitions of the entity named China. By endorsing the "People's Republic of China" as the sole China, we are still making a political statement. This goes against the notion that China is a cultural/geographic entity that transcends regimes--almost no Chinese, and no one familiar with China, will dispute that this can be at least an alternative definition of "China" given how many dynasties have passed through. Those who hold the view that China is a cultural/geographic entity currently divided politically between the PRC and ROC are not few. The news media usage is not NPOV. It's meant to be simplistic since news is designed to be short and cater to the masses. Do you also recommend moving Republic of Macedonia to Macedonia and Republic of Ireland to Ireland because the media does the same? This is awfully western-centric because in a Chinese political debate where there are multiple sides, the neutral terms ''mainland'' China and Taiwan are used, never simply China and Taiwan. As an encyclopedia, we can be different. We are supposed to be neutral and to educate. Any confusion in the title can be cleared up in the text. When most/many Chinese refer to China, they do not refer simply to the People's Republic of China, but Greater China. Just walk into San Francisco Chinatown and you'll see the flag of the PRC and flag of the ROC appearing in equal frequency--the ROC flags aren't being flown by Taiwanese, they are being flown by Cantonese-speaking immigrants and their descendants. Given that this is a politically contentious issue, this deserves exception to the "use common names" approach. The same exception has been given to Macedonia and Ireland. Why not China? Furthermore, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese) may not be changed without proper consultations on the proper talk page, in the least a note directing others to this page. This said, I oppose mainly in principle. References in the text to the President of the People's Republic of China should not be changed. I oppose strongly on that. But for Politics of China to sit where it is, I will remain neutral. There was lengthy debate on this at Talk:People's Republic of China/Talk:China archives. Unfortunately, some of these are lost to the software and we'll need further help to retrieve them--User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 05:21, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
::I would be neutral on the Politics of China as well since it is clearly dedicated to the PRC (and no ROC involved), even this usage was not complying with the convention. As to the province of China and political divisions of China, they included ROC together with PRC under a political entity called "China" which is against the convention and makes a political statement endorsing the PRC's position :"There is only one China in the world. Both the Mainland and Taiwan belong to one China.[http://www.chinaembassy.org.zw/eng/xwdt/t149116.htm]" This is clearly not neutral and should get fixed in a way that either making the article purely dedicated to PRC (just like the politics of China) or having the NPOV convention enforced, so that not a single political entity would be called "China."User:Mababa 22:25, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
:::The concept of province to the ROC and to the PRC is more or less the same (except for the autonomous regions under PRC's system (or to be exact, mainland China's system), which are either titled provinces or regions/areas). Splitting the article on "province of China" into two is probably redundant. — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 17:59, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)
*Oppose (unconditionally). The treatment of the title of these articles depends on the scope of the content. If it is about China in general, without dealing with any government (such as calligraphy, history, etc.) or both governments are addressed (such as province of China), the title "X of China" or "Chinese X" should be used. If it involves the two governments, "X of the People's Republic of China" and "X of Republic of China" should be used. If Hong Kong and Macao are not covered, such as economy, trade, culture, customs, cinema, etc., "X of mainland China", "X of Hong Kong", "X of Macao" should be used, instead of "X of the People's Republic of China". The same should apply to templates and categories.
I also ''oppose editing the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)#NPOV according to the votes on this page''. It should be done at the Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese) page of that article. — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 08:41, Feb 17 2005 (UTC) ***Comment: province of China involves a political power (a goverment called China in this case) exterting a state's sovereignty over territories. It is not something goegraphical. It is political and not neutral of the current article and your proposal in that talk page. Please understand that your political POV is not neutral.User:Mababa 22:25, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) ****Comment: On the other hand, there are two governments called China, so which one are you refering to?--User:Huaiwei 22:33, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) *****Your question is my concern and also your own answer. Which one? Please take note that PRC vehemently objects "two China" and thus we should not bias against their POV. Nor should we make ROC part of PRC 'casue it's biased against Taiwanese. You are more than welcome to participate the POV dispute in political divisions of China if you have any suggestions. We need more opinions to solve the POV dispute.User:Mababa 00:20, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC) ******For provinces, its the same thing for the ROC and the PRC, just like calligraphy of China. — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 18:01, Feb 18 2005 (UTC) *Oppose for the reasons given by User:Instantnood. --User:MarkSweep 09:10, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Oppose, for the reasons given bt Instantnood. Μελ_Ετητης)">User:Mel Etitis 09:39, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Oppose - User:Xed.User talk:Xed 10:35, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Oppose, vehemently even. The term China embodies and invokes different meanings to different people, and to assume that they all refer to the PRC alone goes against wikipedia conventions of respecting the views of all sides, as pointed out by Jiang and Instantnood above.--User:Huaiwei 21:56, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Oppose. Jiang and Instantnood have said all that needs to be said. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 02:19, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC) *Oppose User:ObsidianOrder 06:45, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC) * Oppose, and assume bad faith. User:Austin Hair (User talk:Austin Hair&Special:emailuser/Austin Hair) 03:21, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC) **Why bad faith? The Taiwan voting trend below seemed to indicate people wanted to abandon using "Republic of China" because "everyone just calls it Taiwan". For this reason I invoked "everyone calls it China", I thought surely these same voters would agree. And English speakers talking about "China" are just talking about a country, not mystical Tianxia. Inconsistency in voting here is frankly surprising. -- User:Curps 12:01, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC) ***I doubt if everyone who voted for the Democratic Progressive Party is pro-independence. Some of them voted the DPP as an alternative to Kuomintang, which was associated with "''hēi jīn''" (black gold). Indeed many polls show that the majority of people on Taiwan support neither independence (i.e. changing the official title to Taiwan and officially renounce claims on the mainland) nor reunification (or rejoining/joining), but to keep the status quo. — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 13:36 Feb 20 2005 (UTC) *Oppose It will invoke a NPOV dispute. --User:AphaiaUser talk;Aphaia 11:01, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Oppose. User:BlankVerse User talk:BlankVerse 06:23, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Oppose. POV. —User:Lowellian (User talk:Lowellian) 09:45, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC) *Should Republic be spelled with a capital? This is against Wikipedia naming conventions. -User:MarSch 15:29, 6 May 2005 (UTC) == Giant emblem == The State Emblem is giant; far larger than with other nations and than before. Why is this? Special:Contributions/81.153.145.6 17:33, May 3, 2005 (UTC) == Two Versions == Me and Ran are having two versions of the Article, here are some points we raised during the revert war, which I see have gone too far. Here's some points we raised: winhunter - Most = All?<-- Ridiculous, as I said before, " claims sovereignty over but does not administer" is a more accurate description, and stop pushing that Mainland China thing, because it's known as China Ran - winhunter: your version says the PRC comprises "most of China". this implies 1) Taiwan is part of winhunter - Rev Ran - It implied nothing, don't you see the sentence " claims sovereignty over but does not administer" Ran - ok; but your version is the one that implies China = mainland + Hong Kong + Macau + Taiwan winhunter - Rv Ran - because you said it's referred as Mainland China, which is true only in HK and maybe Taiwan, but most of the world referrs it as China Ran - (winhunter: that is exactly the reason why i reverted to my version. why are you reverting it back again?) winhunter - Rv. Ran - I never said that, it remains controversial, but the fact remains that ppl refer PRC as China) Ran - winhunter: there is NO consensus that China = PRC + ROC. whether Taiwan is a part of China is controversial, so it is POV to imply that it is. Zhouij: if you have better statistics, give a source I think we should discuss instead of endless reverting, please stop further reverts until this is throughly discussed, anyone is welcomed to join in this discussion. --User:Winhunter 14:39, 13 May 2005 (UTC) :Winhunter: what do you mean "Mainland China" is known as "China"? Mainland China is an unambiguous and NPOV term that refers to the territory of the PRC up to 1997. "China" is a term that can include Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan. In fact, if you try to imply that China = just Mainland China, a lot of people aren't just going to disagree, they're going to get seriously offended. I understand that "Mainland China" sounds like politically-correct crap to lots of non-Chinese people, but that's just the way it is. Contentious issues (e.g. the name of Macedonia, the extent of Armenia, the Oder-Neisse line, Derry / Londonderry etc.) tend to sound like frivolous crap to the rest of the world, but Wikipedia is NPOV so we have to deal with these issues anyways. :And besides, the version you keep reverting to refers to the PRC as ''comprises most of the cultural, historic, and geographic area known as China''. That implies that a) all parts of the PRC today are part of China {i.e. Hong Kong and Macau are part of China} and b) some minor parts of China are not part of the PRC (possibilities include Taiwan, Outer Mongolia, Outer Manchuria, Arunachal Pradesh, etc. depending on POV, though I'm going to guess that it was originally written with Taiwan in mind). This is already and immediately POV, because a) we're implying that Taiwan is a part of China, which is unacceptable to lots of Taiwanese people and b) we're implying that Taiwan is not a part of the PRC, which is unacceptable to lots of Mainlanders, who think of Taiwan as a renegade province of the PRC. So you see, neither side is placated. :Which is why I rewrote the article. My rewrite takes into account all points of view. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 22:09, May 13, 2005 (UTC) ::What I mean is, PRC is simply being referred as China, this practice is being used in all around the world with the example here: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4539365.stm]. Mainland China is to referred as to PRC WITHOUT HK, Macau & Taiwan, PRC in general is being referred as simply China. I state once again, I am NOT trying to imply anything, but this is just how it's being used all around the world. Pickup any world famous prints like Time Magazine, you can see it's just referring PRC as China. ::And what are you trying to say, HK and Macau is of course part of China! Why not? And again, most does not mean all, I find that the sentence ''" claims sovereignty over but does not administer"'' as a more accurate description of the case, as this is merely a description but not any POV. For geographical, you can calculate the percentage of land Taiwan and those islands comprise and find that most is a accurate descrption, for cultural and historical? you can really see how much it have in the PRC. ::P.S. forgive me if I make any gramatically mistake or something similar, because I really have written this in a hurry. --User:Winhunter 00:23, 14 May 2005 (UTC) :::What's the deal with your definition of "China"? Earlier on you said that China is Mainland China, now you say that China is the PRC, and yet the version you're defending says that China is the PRC + ROC. :::And which part of my version do you not agree with? You've basically disagreed with your own version, which implies that Taiwan is unambiguously a part of China. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 01:04, May 14, 2005 (UTC) ::::It's not about how I define China, it's about how the world sees the term of China, when they refer something as China, they are talking about PRC. I never said China is mainland China, please qutoe me if I am wrong. ::::As for your version, that Mainland China thing is as stated above, and I strongly doubt the referral of ROC as PRC's rival and that invisible country thing. Furthermore, the definition of China is redundant, as here is talking about PRC, not China in general. If people try to search for China in general, they'd be redirected to the China page, not here. And, should you try to give a definition of China, you shuold either state description or views from both side(or all sides), as I can see you stated views from ROC people only. --User:Winhunter 04:00, 14 May 2005 (UTC) ::::: ''It's not about how I define China, it's about how the world sees the term of China, when they refer something as China, they are talking about PRC.'' - and what is the PRC in this case? The PRC's POV is that PRC = China, where both "PRC" and "China" include Taiwan. Is this reflected in your version? The Green camp in Taiwan also believes that PRC = China, where both "PRC" and "China" exclude Taiwan. Is this reflected in your version? ::::: ''I never said China is mainland China, please qutoe me if I am wrong.''. In an edit summary you said: "it's referred as Mainland China, which is true only in HK and maybe Taiwan, but most of the world refers it as China." Here you are drawing an equation between China and Mainland China, excluding HK and Taiwan. ::::: ''and I strongly doubt the referral of ROC as PRC's rival and that invisible country thing.'' What? ::::: ''the definition of China is redundant, as here is talking about PRC, not China in general.'' Since a large portion of the world believes that talking about the PRC is the same thing as talking about China (be it mainlanders who feel PRC includes Taiwan, Taiwanese who feel China excludes Taiwan, or outsiders who don't have a clue), we do need to set the terms straight and clear up confusion. ::::: ''And, should you try to give a definition of China, you shuold either state description or views from both side(or all sides), as I can see you stated views from ROC people only.''. ... no, I clearly and unambiguously state the position of the PRC: "The PRC considers the combined area of control of both itself and the ROC as a complete and indivisible country known as China. " On the other hand, your version starts by endorsing ''as fact'' the general Blue camp view, which is that China is made up of the PRC and ROC. You have left out the Green camp view, while the PRC view is presented as a POV (unlike the Blue camp view). -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 08:17, May 14, 2005 (UTC) ::::::''For the 1st paragraph:'' in my version: ''cultural, historic, and geographic area known as China'' is simply an descrption, not any POV, therefore there's no point of view from either side. The reason is because this is an article describing PRC, not to bring out the controversy, therefore, I see a description to be more fit for the purpose. ::::::''For the 2nd paragraph:'' I admit I may have failed to bring out my meaning in the edit summary, what I was trying to say is, when people use ''Mainland China'', they are trying to talk about the area that excludes Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan. However, people do referr RRC in short as simply ''China''. ::::::''For the 3rd paragraph:'' I just want to know why you trying to say ROC is PRC's rival? In what way? And the invisible country thing, I really have no idea what you are trying to say. As stated above, people just referr PRC in short as China, it's not some sort of invisible country. ::::::''For the 4th paragraph:'' I agree a definition of China maybe needed, but not here. When people search in wikipedia about China, they get China, only when they click the disambiguation link they get PRC. So should there be a definition, it should be on the China Article, not in here. ::::::For the 5th paragraph: I see no reason to change the original article's description: ''The People's Republic of China claims sovereignty over but does not administer Taiwan'', it's merely a description, not any point of view, therefore no views is stated, not from Blue not from Green. --User:Winhunter 12:32, 14 May 2005 (UTC) :::::::The first paragraph: The key is the word most. The article states that the PRC comprises most of China. This already flies in the face of the PRC's definition of itself. That was what I meant when I said POV. :::::::The second paragraph: if so, then we shouldn't endorse an article that clearly states that PRC != China (PRC is a subset of China). :::::::The third paragraph: Of course the ROC is the PRC's rival. What else would you describe them to be? Also, the word that I'm using is indivisible. Indivisible. This is crucial, because the PRC views China as one permanent country called the PRC, and the current ROC situation as a temporary, transigent existence :::::::The fourth paragraph: then how would you define "PRC"? It's impossible to give a coherent view of various definitions of the PRC without also explaining along the way what people conceive "China" to be. :::::::The fifth paragraph. No no, that's not what I'm saying. That statement, taken alone is fine, because it frames the PRC's viewpoint as a POV. But it's not fair to put that statement if the Blue camp's and the Green camp's views are not treated the same way. The Blue camp's view is basically taken as fact (PRC is a subset of China), while the Green camp's view (Taiwan is outside China) is completely ignored. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 15:49, May 14, 2005 (UTC) ::::::::Do you have in mind the land Taiwan comprise of? Even if we exclude Taiwan, how much land does PRC have? 95% maybe 90%? I see it justify the word ''most''. ::::::::PRC maybe =! China but I say again, people referr PRC in short as China, it's not like I am making this up, I already gave source on this and you can check other world famous medias like reuters and CNN, to see how they referr PRC. :::::::: Rival by definition means competing person or group, I don't see ROC have the power to compete with PRC. In terms of millitary, if there's a war and the American is not coming, ROC would be taken over in a matter of days. In terms of international influence, PRC have much much greater influence than ROC. In terms of Economy, the GDP of PRC is much greater than ROC. So in what aspect you think ROC is a rival of PRC? ::::::::I am sorry for making such careless mistake, yes PRC sees Taiwan as an indivisible part of itself. However, similar meaning is being stated in the original version: ''"The People's Republic of China claims sovereignty over but does not administer Taiwan"''. ::::::::I see the opening sentence as sort of the definition of PRC. For definition of China, it should be in the China page. Should there be any people having such need of such definition, they would have searched the term: ''China'' and arrived at that page. Therefore, if any definition is needed it should be on that page, this article should focus on PRC. ::::::::Description of facts does not need views, there's a sentence that comes after it: '' it is administered by the Republic of China'', also description of fact. Both Sentence added together: PRC claims soverinity over Taiwan, PRC is not currently controlling it, ROC is currently controlling Taiwan, I see this is good enough. So can you please point out(with quote) where you see as the said Blue Camp's view ''PRC is a subset of China''? --User:Winhunter 17:21, 14 May 2005 (UTC) :Ok, let's take a look at the first sentence of your version, the definition of the PRC. :''The People's Republic of China (PRC) is a state that comprises most of the cultural, historic, and geographic area known as China.'' :What does this imply? This implies that: :*The PRC does not comprise all of China. :In other words, there are regions which are part of China, but not part of the PRC. Do you agree with this interpretation? -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 19:37, May 14, 2005 (UTC) ::I'd say this is a controversial issue, the reason of not using ''all'' is because it's POV, however, the use of word ''most'' is correct in any case. --User:Winhunter 01:38, 15 May 2005 (UTC) :So all is POV, but most isn't? -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 01:47, May 15, 2005 (UTC) ::Because we never able to know what's ''all'', so ''most'' is the best description. --User:Winhunter 06:22, 15 May 2005 (UTC) :What? I don't understand this. All means that the PRC includes all parts of China. Most means that the PRC does not include all parts of China. If all is POV, how can most be NPOV??? It's like saying, if "Taiwan is not a part of China" is POV, how is "Taiwan is not a part of China" NPOV??! -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 13:51, May 15, 2005 (UTC) ::I am trying to say, the definition of ''all China'' varies a lot, all China = China in Tong Dynasty? Ching Dynasty? Or others? What's the definiton of ''all China''? We may never know, however, the use of word ''most'' should be correct in any case. --User:Winhunter 14:12, 15 May 2005 (UTC) :The PRC defines China to be all areas that it either controls or claims. Areas that it does not control etc. (Taiwan, etc.) are also part of both China and the PRC, they are just temporarily being occupied by other powers. So you see, China = PRC in this case. So the use of most is not NPOV. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 14:20, May 15, 2005 (UTC) ::I see the world generally perceives the term China as the land that includes the area controlled by PRC and ROC, even the CIA World's factbook: [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/maps/ch-map.gif Map of China in CIA World's factbook], so you see, the use of the term ''most'' conforms with the definition of how the world sees the term of China. --User:Winhunter 17:22, 15 May 2005 (UTC) :No it doesn't. The PRC refers to China as synonymous to the PRC. In other words, the PRC conceives of Taiwan as being part of the PRC and temporarily administered by an enemy regime on the other side of an unfinished civil war. So you see, it is utterly wrong, from the PRC's point of view, to say that "the PRC comprises most of China". :The Green Camp in Taiwan also refers to China as synonymous to the PRC. Hoewver, this China does not include Taiwan. Thus, it is also utterly wrong from the Green Camp's point to view, to say that "the PRC comprises most of China". -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 20:13, May 15, 2005 (UTC) Should we add a short paragraph somewhere in the article to explain the use and the meaning of "China" in common use, the policy based on community consensus on Wikipedia, and direct readers to the China article, the manual of style and the conventions? The meaning of China really varies and depends on situation. In common use, politically it is often used to refer to the PRC, while talking economy and many other topics it may mean only the mainland. — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 10:08, May 16, 2005 (UTC) :It think it'd be nice if you give an example parahraph before I comment, however, I give my support to redirect readers to the China article for the definition in any case. :I still feel most of the world feels China included the total area controlled by PRC & ROC, and I see those governmental claims as political ones, which, if you think it's really necessary, can be mentioned. (''all'' in what case and ''most'' in what case) --User:Winhunter 12:19, 16 May 2005 (UTC) For starters, the rest of the world generally considers China to be just the PRC. I believe you yourself were saying this somewhere else. Also, these are not just political claims. Nationalist fervor is reaching a high point in mainland China, while the Green camp is winning elections in Taiwan. So we're talking about very popular viewpoints here. Also, mentioning all viewpoints is exactly what my version tries to do. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 12:24, May 16, 2005 (UTC) :My suggestion: '' In common use by the mass media, the word "China" is often used synonomously to the territories administered by the PRC, while territories under the Republic of China government are, although not entirely correct and ignoring islands on the coast of the continent, referred to as "Taiwan". In economic and trade contexts, as well as in sport events, and in presentation of statistical information, however, "China" is usually used to refer to mainland China, excluding Hong Kong, Macao and ROC-administered territories. Although in most cultural contexts Taiwan is considered part of the broader sense of "China", whether Taiwan is geographically part of "China" is subject to political disputes. For further details, please refer to the China article. '' Feel free to comment and make necessary changes. :-D — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 15:01, May 16, 2005 (UTC) :Here's an article from BBC News Online that "China" is used meaning the mainland: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4515503.stm HK quashes Falun Gong convictions]. One of the paragraphs from this article is "'' Falun Gong is banned in China and its practitioners complain they are subject to sometimes violent persecution, but they are free to practice in Hong Kong.'' ". — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 15:09, May 16, 2005 (UTC) Ran: I am not going to argue with you any longer about the definition due to its difficulty to prove how the world thinks, thus further arguments would simply become arguing over positions. Instantnood: Your definition is good, though some minor changes is necessary. Like, ''however, "China" is usually used to refer to mainland China, excluding Hong Kong, Macao and ROC-administered territories'' should change to ''however, "China" is usually used to refer to China excluding Hong Kong, Macau and ROC-administered territories'' OR ''however, "China" is usually used to refer to mainland China, which excludes Hong Kong, Macau and ROC-administered territories.'' I give my support to put this into the China article, however I still feel it's a little bit long to put into this article, thus I think it's best to keep only that about the PRC and remove those about ROC and Taiwan, and redirect readers to the China article for the full definition. --User:Winhunter 00:25, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :Winhunter: by ignoring POVs and contradicting yourself ("the world means Mainland China when they say China"; "the world means PRC when they say China"; "China is PRC + ROC") you have not achieved your original purpose, which was to disprove my revision to the intro. :Here it is for everyone to see: ::::The '''People's Republic of China (PRC) is a state in East Asia. Since its founding in 1949, it has been led by the Communist Party of China (CPC), and has administered a large amount of territory commonly known as Mainland China (or simply \"China\", for short). The PRC has also administered Hong Kong and Macau since 1997 and 1999 respectively. In addition, the PRC claims sovereignty over the zone of control the Republic of China (ROC); this includes Taiwan Island, the Pescadores, Quemoy, and Matsu Islands. The PRC considers the combined area of control of both itself and the ROC as a complete and indivisible country known as China'''. This definition of China, and the political status of Taiwan, are controversial subjects, with many in the ROC conceiving of the ROC as an independent Taiwanese nation. :I've removed the word "rival" because it is sketchy, but I fail to see what's wrong with the rest of it or how it is not more NPOV than what we have. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 01:02, May 17, 2005 (UTC) First of all, I fail to see where you quote this from: "''the world means Mainland China when they say China''", second I already mentioned above that further arguments over the term of China would become arguing over positions because of it's difficult to prove what the world thinks. Third, I said the world thinks the China is the area controlled by both PRC & ROC. I stated over and over again that it's commonly known as China only, NOT MAINLAND CHINA, I already mentioned above in what circumstances they used such term. And that ''PRC claims sovereignty over the zone of control the....'', where similar meaning sentence is already mentioend in the original article, which, I see no reason to change, as mentioned above. --User:Winhunter 02:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :Because using the word most in the first sentence is POV. It's not "difficult to prove" what the attitude of the PRC is - that it encompasses all of China and is synonymous with it. To present most as an NPOV fact, then all as a POV, is itself POV. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 13:15, May 17, 2005 (UTC) I did not say difficult to prove what the PRC thinks, I said it is difficult to prove ''what the world thinks about the term China''. The use of the word most is base on my definition of China, which, as stated above, I see no point to argue with you any longer about such definition due to the difficulty to prove. --User:Winhunter 13:34, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :It's not "difficult to prove". The difficulty is that the world has different ways of thinking about China, thus both "most" and "all" are POV. There is no single definition and our current article (your version) does not reflect this. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 13:39, May 17, 2005 (UTC) Wouldn't this be contradicting the statment you made earlier :"''For starters, the rest of the world generally considers China to be just the PRC.''", where you seems to say that most of the world considers China in one way? --User:Winhunter 15:02, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :Why would that contradict what I said? The rest of the world (i.e. outside China) generally considers China = PRC without Taiwan, but the PRC considers China = PRC with Taiwan. The Blue camp considers China = PRC without Taiwan + ROC (Taiwan). The PRC, the blue camp, and the rest of the world think differently. Why would this be a contradiction? :Besides, so what if the rest of the world considers China to be PRC without Taiwan? If you really think that, then shouldn't you disagree with your own version, which states without question China to be PRC without Taiwan + ROC (Taiwan), the blue camp interpretation? -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 15:11, May 17, 2005 (UTC) :Let me do a simple side by side comparison: {| ! Viewpoint !! Your version !! My version |- | PRC view + Blue camp view: China includes Mainland China and Taiwan || presented as fact || presented as POV |- | Green camp + rest of world view: China is PRC, excludes Taiwan || not presented || presented as POV |} :Now who is more NPOV? -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 15:14, May 17, 2005 (UTC) I guess we have to take into consideration that "China", and sometimes even "People's Republic of China", is used, though inaccurate, to refer to mainland China alone, excluding Hong Kong and Macao. And by the way "Maca''o''" is the spelling used by the Macanese government in English, including the cover of the passports it issues, although "Maca''u''" is sometimes used. "Maca''u''" is always used in Portuguese. — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 18:28, May 17, 2005 (UTC) Ran: And how do you prove that the rest of the world thinks it that way, this is where we have difference in position and where I say is difficult to prove! Instantnood: Ok.. I never know about the Portuguese version as I have no knowledge whatsoever about it. As for that the use of China, when it's used to describe a country, it's PRC, when it's used in other places (like sporting events or similar), due to the specialities of Macao and Hong Kong(heh and that's why they are called SAR(s)), China is the term used to describe mainland China alone. So in this article, we should say PRC is being referred in short as China only. --User:Winhunter 00:07, 18 May 2005 (UTC) :Winhunter: who cares? You're the one who brought up this entire "what the world thinks" issue in the first place. Either way the Green Camp thinks it, yet you're not presenting it in your version. Unless you can prove that The Green Camp considers Taiwan to be a part of China, your version is unacceptable. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 00:21, May 18, 2005 (UTC) I brought this up to explain my reasoning, but fine, if you dislike the word most so much, then it can be changed this way: The People's Republic of China (PRC) is a state that is commonly known as China, comprises most of the cultural, historic, known as China. --User:Winhunter 02:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC) :The word "most" is still there. And now you're confusing the reader... :Here's a revision on my version: ::::The '''People's Republic of China (PRC) is a state in East Asia. Since its founding in 1949, it has been led by the Communist Party of China (CPC). The PRC claims sovereignty over but does not administer the zone of control the Republic of China (ROC), which includes Taiwan Island, the Pescadores, Quemoy, and Matsu Islands, all of which it considers as a complete and indivisible country known as China'''. This definition of China, and the political status of Taiwan, are controversial subjects, with many in the ROC conceiving of the ROC as a Taiwanese nation independent of China. ::::The term "mainland China" is sometimes used to denote the area under the PRC's rule, usually excluding the two Special Administrative Regions, Hong Kong and Macau. The PRC is sometimes also referred to as "Red China", especially by its political opponents and critics, in reference to the association between the color red and communism. :-- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 02:56, May 18, 2005 (UTC)\ The term most was used to describe cultural and historic, and you feel this is incorrect? And you feel that PRC is not commonly known as China? --User:Winhunter 11:38, 18 May 2005 (UTC) :The word "most" implies that Taiwan is a part of the "cultural and historic" entity called China. This is POV. Many people feel that Taiwan is not a part of China in any sense. :Also, of course the PRC is commonly known as China. If you feel that I'm not bringing this out sufficiently, here's a rewrite: ::::The '''People's Republic of China (PRC or China''') is a state in East Asia. Since its founding in 1949, it has been led by the Communist Party of China (CPC). The PRC claims sovereignty over but does not administer the zone of control the Republic of China (ROC), which includes Taiwan Island, the Pescadores, Quemoy, and Matsu Islands, all of which it considers as the complete and indivisible country of China. This definition of China is controversial, with many in the ROC conceiving of the ROC as a Taiwanese nation independent of China. See China and Political status of Taiwan for more information. ::::The term "mainland China" is sometimes used to denote the area under the PRC's rule, usually excluding the two Special Administrative Regions, Hong Kong and Macau. The PRC is sometimes also referred to as "Red China", especially by its political opponents and critics, in reference to the association between the color red and communism. : -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 15:35, May 18, 2005 (UTC) What? The word "most" is used to describe PRC, NOT TAIWAN, it just imply how much cultural and historic PRC has inherited, which have nothing to do with Taiwan. --User:Winhunter 10:45, 19 May 2005 (UTC) :Do you really need me to draw a Venn diagram for you??? When you say that the "PRC comprises most of China", you mean that there is a part of China not in the PRC. Now, which part is it if it's not Taiwan? Please, offer some suggestions. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 15:53, May 19, 2005 (UTC) Didn't I removed the word "most" in the geographical description? In my suggested version as shown above, I only shown how PRC is being referred in short, and I see no problem to use "most" in cultural and historic. --User:Winhunter 15:57, 19 May 2005 (UTC) :Okay, which part of cultural China does the PRC not include? Please keep in mind that the Chinese diaspora is not the same thing as China. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 16:03, May 19, 2005 (UTC) Fine, so you suggest to change it to all? --User:Winhunter 16:07, 19 May 2005 (UTC) :Why would I suggest that?! It would be just as bad. And I have already posted my suggestion. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 16:26, May 19, 2005 (UTC) You mentioned "which part of cultural China does the PRC not include?", it's just like asking "isn't everything included?"--User:Winhunter 17:00, 19 May 2005 (UTC) :Okay, is Taiwan a part of cultural China? :Also, please tell me, do you understand what NPOV means? -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 17:12, May 19, 2005 (UTC) If I understand what POV means then how can I not understanding what's NPOV? And I see no problem to include Taiwan because ROC by it's country name is saying it's part of China (that OC part) (Look, I NOT saying here it's part of PRC, nor do I say here it's PRC's sovereignty), and even if you exclude Taiwan, do you have in mind that PRC underwent cultural revolution(s) in its history? Some of them are very destructive, so the Chinese culture it inheried must not be all of them, but most. --User:Winhunter 23:14, 19 May 2005 (UTC) :#Lots of people in Taiwan want to change the name of the "Republic of China". They do not feel that Taiwan is part of any geographical or cultural entity called "China". Look, if you think that it's okay to present "Taiwan is a part of cultural China" as fact, based on Taiwan's official name, then why do you think there's so much dispute going on over at Taiwan? :#If that's your definition of "comprising a cultural entity", then we might as well scrap that portion altogether. All cultures are constantly changing, and no cultural entity can comprise the entirety of itself even one year before, or one day before. As such, to say that any state comprises "most" of any cultural entity is essentially meaningless. But this is clearly not what the original author intended when writing this paragraph. The original author intended the "cultural entity" to mean the Chinese civilization, i.e. what's described at the article China. This cultural entity also has a geographical extent associated with it, and to use the word "most" woul
People's Republic of China
::''PRC redirects here. For other uses, see PRC (disambiguation). For the historical and cultural entity, see China.'' The '''People's Republic of China (PRC), commonly referred to as China''', is a state in East Asia. Since its founding in 1949, it has been led by the Communist Party of China (CPC). It is the world's most populous country, with a population of over 1.3 billion people, most of whom are classified as the Han Chinese ethnicity. It is the largest country in area in East Asia and the [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2147rank.html fourth largest] in the world, after Russia, Canada, and the United States. The PRC borders 14 countries: Afghanistan, Bhutan, Myanmar/Burma, India, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Mongolia, Nepal, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, Tajikistan and Vietnam. Although it officially remains a communist state, the PRC has considerably privatization its economy in the past three decades. Politically, it remains a one-party authoritarian state from its true communist days. The PRC claims sovereignty over but has never controlled Taiwan and some neighboring islands, which are controlled by the Republic of China. The PRC considers those areas as parts of itself, an eternally complete and indivisible country. This claim is controversial with the ROC considering itself an independent state. See China and Political status of Taiwan for more information. The term "mainland China" is sometimes used to denote the area under the PRC's rule, usually excluding the two Special Administrative Regions, Hong Kong and Macau. The PRC is sometimes also referred to as "Red China", especially by its political opponents and critics, in reference to the association between the color red and communism. ==History== ''Main articles: History of China, History of the People's Republic of China, Timeline of Chinese history'' See also: Chinese imperialism After World War II, the Chinese Civil War between the Communist Party of China and the Kuomintang ended in 1949 with the Communists in control of mainland China and the Kuomintang in control of Taiwan and some outlying islands of Fujian. On October 1, 1949, Mao Zedong declared the People's Republic of China, establishing a communist state, and proclaiming that "China has stood up." Supporters of the Maoist Era, consisting mostly of poorer Chinese and Marxism foreign experts, claim that under Mao, China's unity and sovereignty was assured for the first time in a century, and there was development of infrastructure, industry, healthcare, and education, which raised living standards of average Chinese. They also believe that campaigns such as the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution were essential in jumpstarting China's development and purifying its culture. Supporters may also doubt statistics or accounts given for death tolls or other damages incurred by Mao's campaigns. However, critics of Mao's regime, which consists of the majority of foreign experts and observers as well as many Chinese people, especially the emergent middle class and more liberal-minded city dwellers, claim that Mao's administration imposed strict controls over everyday life, and believe that campaigns such as the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution contributed to or caused millions of deaths, incurred severe economic costs, and damaged China's cultural heritage. The Great Leap Forward in particular preceded a massive famine in China which, according to credible Western and Eastern [http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm sources], 20 - 30 million people died; most Western and many Chinese analysts attribute this to the Great Leap Forward, while others, including Mao at the time, attribute this to natural disasters; still others doubt this figure entirely, or claim that many more people died due to famine or other consequences of political chaos during the rule of Chiang Kai-Shek. Following the dramatic economic failures of the early 1960s, Mao stepped down from his position as chairman of the People's Republic. The National People's Congress elected Liu Shaoqi as Mao's successor. Mao remained head of the Party but was removed from day to day management of economic affairs which came under the control of a more moderate leadership under the dominant influence of Liu Shaoqi, Deng Xiaoping and others who initiated economic reforms. In 1966 Mao launched the Cultural Revolution, which is viewed by his opponents (including both Western analysts and many Chinese people who were youth at the time) as a strike back at his rivals by mobilizing the youth of the country in support of his thought and purging the moderate leadership, but is viewed by his supporters as an experiment in direct democracy and a genuine attempt at purging Chinese society of corruption and other negative influences. Disorder followed but gradually under the leadership of Zhou Enlai moderate forces regained influence. After Mao's death, Deng Xiaoping, seen as the leader of the economic reformists, succeeded in winning the power struggle, and Mao's widow, Jiang Qing and her associates, the Gang of Four (China), who had assumed control of the country, were arrested and put on trial. Since then, the government has gradually and greatly loosened governmental control over people's personal lives, and began transitioning China's planned economy into a mixed economy. Supporters of the economic reforms, who tend to be middle-class Chinese and most left-center to right Western observers, point to the rapid development of the consumer and export sectors of the economy, the creation of an urban middle class that now constitutes 15% of the population, higher living standards (which is shown via dramatic increases in GDP per capita, consumer spending, life expectancy, literacy rate, and total grain output) and a much wider range of personal rights and freedoms for average Chinese as evidence of the success of the reforms. Critics of the economic reforms, who tend to be poorer workers and peasants in China and leftist Western observers, claim that the reforms have caused wealth disparity, environmental pollution, rampant corruption, widespread unemployment associated with layoffs at inefficient state-owned enterprises, and has introduced often unwelcome cultural influences. Consequently they believe that China's culture has been corrupted, her poor have been reduced to a hopeless adject underclass, and that the social stability is threatened. They are also of the opinion that various political reforms, such as moves towards popular elections, have been unfairly nipped in the bud. Despite these concessions to capitalism, the Communist Party of China remains in control and has maintained repressive policies against groups which it feels are threats, such as Falun Gong and the separatist movement in Tibet. Supporters of these policies, who tend to be the majority of rural Chinese people and a smaller majority of urban Chinese people, as well as a minority of observers, claim that these policies safeguard stability in a society that is torn apart by class differences and rivalries, has no tradition of civil participation, and limited rule of law. Opponents of these policies, who tend to be a minority of Chinese people, most Chinese dissidents living abroad, many people from Hong Kong or Taiwan, ethnic minorities like Tibetans, and most Westerners, claim that these policies severely violate norms of human rights that the international community recognizes, and further claim that this results in a police state, which creates an atmosphere of fear and ignorance. The People's Republic of China adopted its current constitution of the People's Republic of China on December 4, 1982. == Politics == :''Main article: Politics of China'' :''This section is on the politics of Mainland China. See also: Chinese nationalism, Propaganda in the People's Republic of China, Imperialism in Asia, Politics of Taiwan, Hong_Kong#Politics, and Macau#Politics.'' [[Image:China%2C_Mao_%282%29.jpg|thumb|left|230px|Mao Zedong declares the founding of the PRC in 1949]] In the technical terminology of political science the PRC was a communist state for much of the 20th century, and is still considered a communist state by many, though not all, political scientists. Attempts to simply characterize the nature of the political structure of China fail. The regime has variously been described as authoritarianism, communism, socialism and various combinations of those terms. It has also been described as a communist government. This may be called state capitalist by more left-leaning communists. It appears China is slowly becoming capitalist. The government of the PRC is controlled by the Communist Party of China. While there have been some moves toward political liberalization, in that contested elections are now held at the village level and legislatures have shown some assertiveness from time to time, the party retains effective control over governmental appointments. While the state uses authoritarian methods to deal with challenges to its rule, it simultaneously attempts to reduce dissent by improving the economy, allowing expression of personal grievances, and giving lenient treatment to persons expressing dissent whom the regime does not believe are organizers. Censorship of political speech is routine, and the Communist Party ruthlessly suppresses any protests and organizations that it considers a threat to its power, as was the case after the Tiananmen Square protests. However there are limits to the repression that the Party is willing or able to achieve. The media have become increasingly active in publicizing social problems and exposing corruption and inefficiency at lower levels of government. The Party has also been rather unsuccessful at controlling information, and in some cases has had to change policies in response to public outrage. Although organized opposition against the Party is not tolerated, demonstrations over local issues are frequent and increasingly tolerated. Recently, under increasingly showing himself as conservative Hu Jintao, the PRC has tended to increase crackdowns on reporters, even those working for foreign papers, such as the New York Times. The support that the Communist Party of China has among the Chinese population is unclear, as there are no national elections, and private conversations and anecdotal information often reveals conflicting views. Many in China appear appreciative of the role that the government plays in maintaining social stability, which has allowed the economy to grow without interruption. Political concerns in China include the growing gap between rich and poor in the PRC, and the growing discontent with widespread corruption within the leadership. There are some other parties in PRC. The CPC cooperates with these parties through a special conference, called the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC) led by the CPC, rather than elections. Nevertheless, the effect of the other parties on the government remains minimal. As an advisory body of the CPC without real power, the C.P.P.C.C. is quite like an external eye, although there are officers from the CPPCC in almost all government departments. === Ethnic issues === The PRC describes itself as a multiethnic state providing ethnic autonomy in the form of autonomous entities of China. PRC policy gives advantages to ethnic minorities in areas such as high school or college admission and government employment. It also officially condemns Han chauvinism. However, it currently faces independence movements in Tibet, Xinjiang, and to a lesser degree, Inner Mongolia. Independence groups and many foreign observers are critical of the PRC's ethnic policies. They consider practices such as the organization and generous financial encouragement of Han Chinese movement into non-Han Chinese areas, to be chauvinistic and colonialism, bent on demographically swamping non-Han Chinese areas and reducing the possibility that any independence movement could succeed. Within China, many people are also critical of the above policies. For example, Han Chinese in Xinjiang or Inner Mongolia tend to be resentful and perceive of themselves as being treated as "second-class citizens" as a result of policies that favour minorities. Many people also consider these policies to have encouraged the formation of separatist movements and to have threatened the territorial integrity of China. == Foreign relations == ''Main article: Foreign relations of the People's Republic of China'' The People's Republic of China maintains diplomatic relations with most countries in the world, but makes acknowledging its claim to Taiwan and severing any official ties with the Republic of China (ROC) government a prerequisite for diplomatic exchanges. It also actively opposes foreign travels by current and former political officials of Taiwan, such as Lee Teng-hui and Chen Shui-bian. The PRC also opposes travel by the Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama due to his leadership of the Government of Tibet in Exile and Li Hongzhi, the spiritual leader of the Falun Gong, who lives in exile in the US. [[Image:Clinton and jiang.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Jiang Zemin and Bill Clinton]] In 1971, the PRC replaced the Republic of China as the sole representative for "China" in the United Nations and as one of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council; it is also considered a founding member although the PRC was not in control at the founding of the UN. (See China and the United Nations) It was for a time a member and leader of the Non-Aligned Movement, but now is an observer. Much of the current foreign policy is based on the concept of China's peaceful rise. Sino-American relations have been strained several times in the past few decades by Japan's refusal to acknowledge its past war crime violations, most notable among which is The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang. China is often criticized for human rights abuses, with foreign relations suffering greatly following the Tiananmen Square Massacre in 1989. Human rights is a perennial issue that is brought up in the US Congress, but since the Clinton years, human rights has been decoupled from economic negotiations, such as Most Favored Nation status. In May 1999, a B-2 stealth bomber dropped three 2000-pound satellite guided bombs on the Chinese embassy in Belgrade during the Kosovo conflict, killing three Chinese reporters. The United States insisted this was a mistake, showing with documentary evidence that the selection of the building as a target was based on an outdated map produced by the U.S. National Imagery and Mapping Agency (now known as the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency), which incorrectly identified the building as an arms procurement agency of the Yugoslav government. Although the U.S. dispatched a special envoy to China to explain the error, the Chinese government continued to insist that the action was deliberate. In April 2001, a U.S. EP-3 propeller reconnaissance plane operating in what the US claims international waters off the Chinese Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and the Chinese claims within its EEZ, while conducting signals reconnaissance was "buzzed" by a Chinese jet fighter, leading to an accidental collision in which the fighter crashed and its pilot was killed. The damaged U.S. plane struggled to land on China's Hainan Island, where its 24 crewmembers were detained for 12 days and sensitive equipment from the craft was confiscated. Another source of friction was the 1999 Cox report, which revealed PRC espionage compromising U.S. nuclear secrets dating back several decades. In addition to Taiwan, China is involved in several other territorial disputes. The PRC makes all of these claims on irredentism grounds, while the opposing claimants tend to view the PRC as being motivated by resources or military considerations: *With India: **Aksai Chin, administered by China, claimed by India **Arunachal Pradesh / South Tibet, administered by India, claimed by China *Over islands on the East China Sea or South China Sea: **Paracel Islands, administered by China, claimed by Vietnam and the Republic of China **Spratly Islands: the People’s Republic of China, the Republic of China (Taiwan), and Vietnam each claim sovereignty over the entire group, while Malaysia, the Philippines, and Brunei claim parts of the group. **Diaoyu Islands / Senkaku Islands, administered by Japan, claimed by the PRC and the Republic of China In 2004, Russia agreed to cede Yinlong Island as well as one half of Heixiazi Island to China, ending a long-standing border dispute between Russia and China. Both islands are found at the confluence of the Amur and Ussuri Rivers, and were until then administered by Russia and claimed by China. The event has fostered feelings of reconciliation and cooperation, but it has also sparked some discontent on both sides, with some Russians unhappy about the loss of territory, and some Chinese unhappy that the Chinese government has effectively surrendered claims over the other half of Heixiazi Island by accepting the Russian offer. The transfer has been ratified by both the Chinese National People's Congress and the Russian State Duma but has yet to be carried out. Outside official opinion, it is popular for nationalists to make Irredentism claims to Mongolia, Tuva and Outer Manchuria, as well as (less commonly) the Ryukyu Islands, Bhutan, Sikkim, Ladakh, the Hukawng Valley in northern Myanmar, and Central Asia southeast of Lake Balkhash. See also: Political status of Taiwan == Military == ''Main article: People's Liberation Army'' People's_Liberation_Army_soldiers_march_in_Beijing">Image:PLA_soldiers.jpg|left|thumb|200px|People's Liberation Army soldiers march in Beijing The PRC maintains the largest standing army in the world, although there is a general belief both within the PLA and among outside observers that numbers are of limited usefulness in estimating the power of a military. The People's Liberation Army (PLA) includes the PLAN and PLAAF. The PLA's official budget for 2005 is $30 billion, but this does not include money used for foreign weapons purchases, military-related R&D, or the paramilitary People's Armed Police, and critics label it a deliberately misleading low estimate. A recent RAND [http://www.rand.org/publications/MG/MG260/index.html study] estimates that the total military spending of the PRC is 1.4-1.7 times as large as the official military budget. By some estimates of true spending, the PRC's military spending is second only to the US's of over $400 billion. The PRC, despite possession of nuclear weapons and delivery systems, is widely seen both inside of China and on the outside as having only limited ability to project military power beyond its borders and is not generally considered to be a true superpower although it is widely seen as a major regional power. This is due to the limited effectiveness of its navy (lack of aircraft carriers) and air force (much less flight training time, older planes). == Political divisions== ''Main article: Political divisions of China'' The People's Republic of China has administrative control over 22 provinces (省); the government of the People's Republic of China considers Taiwan Province (台湾), which is actually controlled by the Republic of China, to be its 23rd province. (See Political status of Taiwan for more information.) Apart from provinces there are 5 autonomous regions (自治区) containing concentrations of several minorities; 4 municipalities (直辖市) for China's largest cities and 2 Special Administrative Regions (SAR) (特别行政区) governed by the PRC. The 22 provinces, 5 autonomous regions and 4 municipalities can be collectively referred to as "mainland China", a term which usually excludes Hong Kong, Macao, and Taiwan. The following are a list of administrative divisions of areas under the control of the People's Republic of China.
| Provinces *Anhui (安徽) *Fujian (福建) *Gansu (甘肃) *Guangdong (广东) *Guizhou (贵州) *Hainan (海南) *Hebei (河北) *Heilongjiang (黑龙江) *Henan (河南) *Hubei (湖北) *Hunan (湖南) *Jiangsu (江苏) *Jiangxi (江西) *Jilin (吉林) *Liaoning (辽宁) *Qinghai (青海) *Shaanxi (陕西) *Shandong (山东) *Shanxi (山西) *Sichuan (四川) *Yunnan (云南) *Zhejiang (浙江) |
Autonomous regions
*Guangxi (广西)
*Inner Mongolia (内蒙古)
*Ningxia (宁夏)
*Xinjiang (新疆)
*Tibet Autonomous Region (西藏)
Municipalities *Beijing (北京) *Chongqing (重庆) *Shanghai (上海) *Tianjin (天津) Special Administrative Regions *Hong Kong (香港) *Macau (澳门) Claimed by the PRC, but governed by Republic of China *Taiwan Province (台湾) (Political status of Taiwan) |
People's Republic of China
---- ''An event mentioned in this article is an Template:October 1 selected anniversaries.'' ------- For earlier material see Talk:China/old, Talk:China/Archive 1 and Talk:China/Archive 2 Talk:China/Archive 3 Talk:China/Archive 4 Talk:China/Archive 5 Talk:China/Archive 6 Talk:China/Archive 7 ----- == To Ran == As a freshman here, I was surprised by the languages and words in the China Politics, Foreign Relations and Military. They are not NPOV. The POV is critic but not neutral. Some words are bias and the others are guessing. That's not objective. User:Pashan 12:57, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) :I agree with you, those sections are not NPOV at all. But replacing them with the opposite POV isn't the way to solve the problem. :I was part of an effort earlier to NPOVize the history section. You can still see how it was done: "A says X because of P, and B says Y because of Q..." and so on. This way, the history section encompasses a huge span of views, from people who believe that the Great Leap Forward was great and didn't kill anyone to the people who believe that it killed 40 million people; from people who think that Deng's reforms were all good and will make China a modern country to people who think Deng's reforms were all bad and will cause China's demise; and so on. All sorts of views are rolled up in that section. You can take a look at it for reference. :Unfortunately I don't know that much about the topics you're working on, so you'll have to work those out with others here. (Many of them have very negative opinions of China's political system, so, for the sake of NPOV you'll need to keep them happy too. That's where the fun of it is. ;) ) But if you put back what you have now, it'll get reverted for sure, again and again. That frustrates everyone, doesn't accomplish anything, and certain isn't how NPOV is done. :Welcome to Wikipedia, btw. ;) -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 19:48, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC) ::Thanks for that--User:Pashan User_talk: Pashan 15:14, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC) ==Diaoyu Islands== On ''Adminstered'' vs. ''controlled'' Yes in terms of administrative hierachy it is part of Okinawa prefecture. But the Japanese authorities do not exercise normal administration over the islands. They are patrol by the navy. In reality the authorities aren't able to treat them as ordinary islands like many other those in the Southwest Islands or in the Pacific. :Okay, is there any difference between how Japan controls the Diaoyu Islands, and how Japan (or any other country) controls other uninhabited islands or regions? (Such islands probably don't need departments for education or healthcare. ;) ) -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 22:30, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC) What if a Japanese want to visit the island, say for research purpose, does she/he have to apply with the Japan Self-Defense Forces? Or is it the same like going to the Iwo Jima? Bear in mind designating an island as Izu_Islands or national park is also an act of administration. -- 17:56, January 27, 2005, UTC ==Page moves of "X in People's Republic of China " articles== ''It was wikipedia:requested moves that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved:'' ====X in People's Republic of China → X in China==== * Also '''X of People's Republic of China → X of China * Also People's Republic of China's X → China's X''' * etc. There are a number of articles and categories with titles that use "People's Republic of China" in the title where just "China" would be more suitable, on grounds of "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)". For instance People's Republic of China's trademark law and many other examples. The use of "China" (in reference to current events and situations) in modern news media and everyday usage always refers to the territory, population, and society that is the People's Republic of China... the only political controversy is over whether China includes Taiwan or not. The term "Republic of China" is always used in full (or abbreviated to "ROC") — that is, the term "China" alone (in reference to current events and situations) never refers to the Republic of China. For instance, when the news media refer to "China's economy" (a major topic these days), it is always the People's Republic of China's economy that is being referred to. Exceptions: there are currently separate full articles on China and People's Republic of China, and History of China and History of the People's Republic of China. These are therefore not simple page moves, and are outside the scope of this "requested moves" page. Note: the article Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Political NPOV would be edited in accordance with the outcome of this vote and the votes below on ROC/Taiwan issues. However, the votes are ''not'' linked: voting for one does not imply voting for the other. -- User:Curps 22:35, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Support with condition PRC/China gets to use the term "China" as the name of the political entity; meanwhile, ROC/Taiwan gets to use the term "Taiwan" as the name of the political entity. Taiwan and ROC are interchangable as China and PRC when these terms are used to refering political entities. When the term "China" is being used in either political context or geographical context, it strictly refers to the territory under PRC jurisdiction. Territories outside of the current PRC jurisdiction depends on the context such as historical territories would be mentioned as part of historical territory. Taiwan would be only claimed by China as part of China, but not regarded as part of China. Provinces of China and the political divisions of China refers to the provinces of PRC with her claim over Taiwan. No articles of China would make Taiwan as part of it, only make claims of it. ROC is not China(here, PRC) or part of China(here, PRC). ROC should not be listed in a article which make it look like part of China/PRC.User:Mababa 04:59, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) **Saying the ROC and Taiwan are the same is not neutral. See [http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-10/13/content_382036.htm this (from the PRC)], [http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2004/10/12/2003206535/print and this (from Lee Teng-hui)] for example, regarding the criticism of Chen Shui-bian for making such a claim. Certainly in the many times I've heard "China" being used, it does not strictly refer to, either in a politically, and especially and a geographical and cultural context, to the PRC. Your POV is one supporting Taiwan independence. We must represent all sides here. What if we regarded both the PRC and ROC to be part of China? What if we want to be ambiguous? What you propose is certainly not NPOV. --User:JiangUser talk:Jiang 05:31, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) ***Yeah... I do see what you mean. Your statement "''What if we regarded both the PRC and ROC to be part of China''" is an obvious unification supporter's POV and I do not believe Wiki should have any thing to do with this statement though. Further, I do not think my proposal is supporting Taiwan independence by all means. I do not believe my proposal would ever damage PRC's claim over Taiwan nor bolster it. It is sheerly for connecting common perception to the Wikipedia so that we are not locked in our ivory tower and make a twisted encyclopedia that is not recognizable. PRC's claim would always be addressed as her claims as usually being processed here. There is a strong and clear need to have China to be directed to PRC in this Wikipeida for those readers searching information on PRC, and there is obviously some articles written not inline with the current naming convention and used China as political entity refering to PRC. I am only proposing a fair and easy solution so that no straneous or dramatic changes would be required to fix the current situation. I have been following the convention NPOV policy and most ROC related articles are quick to be fixed. Now I wish same priniciple would be applied to the POV in some articles using the term "China" as a political entity or we should change this policy to another fair and neutral usage. With the current poll land sliding toward opposition, I am confident that the wisdom envisioned in the NPOV convention dictating the term "China" would not be used refering any political entity (and often used to include ROC and PRC together under a political entity called as China) would be enforced and carried out.User:Mababa 22:25, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) ****China can be a geographical or a cultural area, that both mainland China and Taiwan belongs to. Saying Taiwan is part of this geographical or cultural concept of China does not necessarily means pro-unification. — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 13:01, Feb 19 2005 (UTC) *
I also ''oppose editing the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)#NPOV according to the votes on this page''. It should be done at the Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese) page of that article. — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 08:41, Feb 17 2005 (UTC) ***Comment: province of China involves a political power (a goverment called China in this case) exterting a state's sovereignty over territories. It is not something goegraphical. It is political and not neutral of the current article and your proposal in that talk page. Please understand that your political POV is not neutral.User:Mababa 22:25, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) ****Comment: On the other hand, there are two governments called China, so which one are you refering to?--User:Huaiwei 22:33, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) *****Your question is my concern and also your own answer. Which one? Please take note that PRC vehemently objects "two China" and thus we should not bias against their POV. Nor should we make ROC part of PRC 'casue it's biased against Taiwanese. You are more than welcome to participate the POV dispute in political divisions of China if you have any suggestions. We need more opinions to solve the POV dispute.User:Mababa 00:20, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC) ******For provinces, its the same thing for the ROC and the PRC, just like calligraphy of China. — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 18:01, Feb 18 2005 (UTC) *Oppose for the reasons given by User:Instantnood. --User:MarkSweep 09:10, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Oppose, for the reasons given bt Instantnood. Μελ_Ετητης)">User:Mel Etitis 09:39, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Oppose - User:Xed.User talk:Xed 10:35, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Oppose, vehemently even. The term China embodies and invokes different meanings to different people, and to assume that they all refer to the PRC alone goes against wikipedia conventions of respecting the views of all sides, as pointed out by Jiang and Instantnood above.--User:Huaiwei 21:56, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Oppose. Jiang and Instantnood have said all that needs to be said. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 02:19, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC) *Oppose User:ObsidianOrder 06:45, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC) * Oppose, and assume bad faith. User:Austin Hair (User talk:Austin Hair&Special:emailuser/Austin Hair) 03:21, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC) **Why bad faith? The Taiwan voting trend below seemed to indicate people wanted to abandon using "Republic of China" because "everyone just calls it Taiwan". For this reason I invoked "everyone calls it China", I thought surely these same voters would agree. And English speakers talking about "China" are just talking about a country, not mystical Tianxia. Inconsistency in voting here is frankly surprising. -- User:Curps 12:01, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC) ***I doubt if everyone who voted for the Democratic Progressive Party is pro-independence. Some of them voted the DPP as an alternative to Kuomintang, which was associated with "''hēi jīn''" (black gold). Indeed many polls show that the majority of people on Taiwan support neither independence (i.e. changing the official title to Taiwan and officially renounce claims on the mainland) nor reunification (or rejoining/joining), but to keep the status quo. — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 13:36 Feb 20 2005 (UTC) *Oppose It will invoke a NPOV dispute. --User:AphaiaUser talk;Aphaia 11:01, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Oppose. User:BlankVerse User talk:BlankVerse 06:23, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Oppose. POV. —User:Lowellian (User talk:Lowellian) 09:45, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC) *Should Republic be spelled with a capital? This is against Wikipedia naming conventions. -User:MarSch 15:29, 6 May 2005 (UTC) == Giant emblem == The State Emblem is giant; far larger than with other nations and than before. Why is this? Special:Contributions/81.153.145.6 17:33, May 3, 2005 (UTC) == Two Versions == Me and Ran are having two versions of the Article, here are some points we raised during the revert war, which I see have gone too far. Here's some points we raised: winhunter - Most = All?<-- Ridiculous, as I said before, " claims sovereignty over but does not administer" is a more accurate description, and stop pushing that Mainland China thing, because it's known as China Ran - winhunter: your version says the PRC comprises "most of China". this implies 1) Taiwan is part of winhunter - Rev Ran - It implied nothing, don't you see the sentence " claims sovereignty over but does not administer" Ran - ok; but your version is the one that implies China = mainland + Hong Kong + Macau + Taiwan winhunter - Rv Ran - because you said it's referred as Mainland China, which is true only in HK and maybe Taiwan, but most of the world referrs it as China Ran - (winhunter: that is exactly the reason why i reverted to my version. why are you reverting it back again?) winhunter - Rv. Ran - I never said that, it remains controversial, but the fact remains that ppl refer PRC as China) Ran - winhunter: there is NO consensus that China = PRC + ROC. whether Taiwan is a part of China is controversial, so it is POV to imply that it is. Zhouij: if you have better statistics, give a source I think we should discuss instead of endless reverting, please stop further reverts until this is throughly discussed, anyone is welcomed to join in this discussion. --User:Winhunter 14:39, 13 May 2005 (UTC) :Winhunter: what do you mean "Mainland China" is known as "China"? Mainland China is an unambiguous and NPOV term that refers to the territory of the PRC up to 1997. "China" is a term that can include Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan. In fact, if you try to imply that China = just Mainland China, a lot of people aren't just going to disagree, they're going to get seriously offended. I understand that "Mainland China" sounds like politically-correct crap to lots of non-Chinese people, but that's just the way it is. Contentious issues (e.g. the name of Macedonia, the extent of Armenia, the Oder-Neisse line, Derry / Londonderry etc.) tend to sound like frivolous crap to the rest of the world, but Wikipedia is NPOV so we have to deal with these issues anyways. :And besides, the version you keep reverting to refers to the PRC as ''comprises most of the cultural, historic, and geographic area known as China''. That implies that a) all parts of the PRC today are part of China {i.e. Hong Kong and Macau are part of China} and b) some minor parts of China are not part of the PRC (possibilities include Taiwan, Outer Mongolia, Outer Manchuria, Arunachal Pradesh, etc. depending on POV, though I'm going to guess that it was originally written with Taiwan in mind). This is already and immediately POV, because a) we're implying that Taiwan is a part of China, which is unacceptable to lots of Taiwanese people and b) we're implying that Taiwan is not a part of the PRC, which is unacceptable to lots of Mainlanders, who think of Taiwan as a renegade province of the PRC. So you see, neither side is placated. :Which is why I rewrote the article. My rewrite takes into account all points of view. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 22:09, May 13, 2005 (UTC) ::What I mean is, PRC is simply being referred as China, this practice is being used in all around the world with the example here: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4539365.stm]. Mainland China is to referred as to PRC WITHOUT HK, Macau & Taiwan, PRC in general is being referred as simply China. I state once again, I am NOT trying to imply anything, but this is just how it's being used all around the world. Pickup any world famous prints like Time Magazine, you can see it's just referring PRC as China. ::And what are you trying to say, HK and Macau is of course part of China! Why not? And again, most does not mean all, I find that the sentence ''" claims sovereignty over but does not administer"'' as a more accurate description of the case, as this is merely a description but not any POV. For geographical, you can calculate the percentage of land Taiwan and those islands comprise and find that most is a accurate descrption, for cultural and historical? you can really see how much it have in the PRC. ::P.S. forgive me if I make any gramatically mistake or something similar, because I really have written this in a hurry. --User:Winhunter 00:23, 14 May 2005 (UTC) :::What's the deal with your definition of "China"? Earlier on you said that China is Mainland China, now you say that China is the PRC, and yet the version you're defending says that China is the PRC + ROC. :::And which part of my version do you not agree with? You've basically disagreed with your own version, which implies that Taiwan is unambiguously a part of China. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 01:04, May 14, 2005 (UTC) ::::It's not about how I define China, it's about how the world sees the term of China, when they refer something as China, they are talking about PRC. I never said China is mainland China, please qutoe me if I am wrong. ::::As for your version, that Mainland China thing is as stated above, and I strongly doubt the referral of ROC as PRC's rival and that invisible country thing. Furthermore, the definition of China is redundant, as here is talking about PRC, not China in general. If people try to search for China in general, they'd be redirected to the China page, not here. And, should you try to give a definition of China, you shuold either state description or views from both side(or all sides), as I can see you stated views from ROC people only. --User:Winhunter 04:00, 14 May 2005 (UTC) ::::: ''It's not about how I define China, it's about how the world sees the term of China, when they refer something as China, they are talking about PRC.'' - and what is the PRC in this case? The PRC's POV is that PRC = China, where both "PRC" and "China" include Taiwan. Is this reflected in your version? The Green camp in Taiwan also believes that PRC = China, where both "PRC" and "China" exclude Taiwan. Is this reflected in your version? ::::: ''I never said China is mainland China, please qutoe me if I am wrong.''. In an edit summary you said: "it's referred as Mainland China, which is true only in HK and maybe Taiwan, but most of the world refers it as China." Here you are drawing an equation between China and Mainland China, excluding HK and Taiwan. ::::: ''and I strongly doubt the referral of ROC as PRC's rival and that invisible country thing.'' What? ::::: ''the definition of China is redundant, as here is talking about PRC, not China in general.'' Since a large portion of the world believes that talking about the PRC is the same thing as talking about China (be it mainlanders who feel PRC includes Taiwan, Taiwanese who feel China excludes Taiwan, or outsiders who don't have a clue), we do need to set the terms straight and clear up confusion. ::::: ''And, should you try to give a definition of China, you shuold either state description or views from both side(or all sides), as I can see you stated views from ROC people only.''. ... no, I clearly and unambiguously state the position of the PRC: "The PRC considers the combined area of control of both itself and the ROC as a complete and indivisible country known as China. " On the other hand, your version starts by endorsing ''as fact'' the general Blue camp view, which is that China is made up of the PRC and ROC. You have left out the Green camp view, while the PRC view is presented as a POV (unlike the Blue camp view). -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 08:17, May 14, 2005 (UTC) ::::::''For the 1st paragraph:'' in my version: ''cultural, historic, and geographic area known as China'' is simply an descrption, not any POV, therefore there's no point of view from either side. The reason is because this is an article describing PRC, not to bring out the controversy, therefore, I see a description to be more fit for the purpose. ::::::''For the 2nd paragraph:'' I admit I may have failed to bring out my meaning in the edit summary, what I was trying to say is, when people use ''Mainland China'', they are trying to talk about the area that excludes Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan. However, people do referr RRC in short as simply ''China''. ::::::''For the 3rd paragraph:'' I just want to know why you trying to say ROC is PRC's rival? In what way? And the invisible country thing, I really have no idea what you are trying to say. As stated above, people just referr PRC in short as China, it's not some sort of invisible country. ::::::''For the 4th paragraph:'' I agree a definition of China maybe needed, but not here. When people search in wikipedia about China, they get China, only when they click the disambiguation link they get PRC. So should there be a definition, it should be on the China Article, not in here. ::::::For the 5th paragraph: I see no reason to change the original article's description: ''The People's Republic of China claims sovereignty over but does not administer Taiwan'', it's merely a description, not any point of view, therefore no views is stated, not from Blue not from Green. --User:Winhunter 12:32, 14 May 2005 (UTC) :::::::The first paragraph: The key is the word most. The article states that the PRC comprises most of China. This already flies in the face of the PRC's definition of itself. That was what I meant when I said POV. :::::::The second paragraph: if so, then we shouldn't endorse an article that clearly states that PRC != China (PRC is a subset of China). :::::::The third paragraph: Of course the ROC is the PRC's rival. What else would you describe them to be? Also, the word that I'm using is indivisible. Indivisible. This is crucial, because the PRC views China as one permanent country called the PRC, and the current ROC situation as a temporary, transigent existence :::::::The fourth paragraph: then how would you define "PRC"? It's impossible to give a coherent view of various definitions of the PRC without also explaining along the way what people conceive "China" to be. :::::::The fifth paragraph. No no, that's not what I'm saying. That statement, taken alone is fine, because it frames the PRC's viewpoint as a POV. But it's not fair to put that statement if the Blue camp's and the Green camp's views are not treated the same way. The Blue camp's view is basically taken as fact (PRC is a subset of China), while the Green camp's view (Taiwan is outside China) is completely ignored. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 15:49, May 14, 2005 (UTC) ::::::::Do you have in mind the land Taiwan comprise of? Even if we exclude Taiwan, how much land does PRC have? 95% maybe 90%? I see it justify the word ''most''. ::::::::PRC maybe =! China but I say again, people referr PRC in short as China, it's not like I am making this up, I already gave source on this and you can check other world famous medias like reuters and CNN, to see how they referr PRC. :::::::: Rival by definition means competing person or group, I don't see ROC have the power to compete with PRC. In terms of millitary, if there's a war and the American is not coming, ROC would be taken over in a matter of days. In terms of international influence, PRC have much much greater influence than ROC. In terms of Economy, the GDP of PRC is much greater than ROC. So in what aspect you think ROC is a rival of PRC? ::::::::I am sorry for making such careless mistake, yes PRC sees Taiwan as an indivisible part of itself. However, similar meaning is being stated in the original version: ''"The People's Republic of China claims sovereignty over but does not administer Taiwan"''. ::::::::I see the opening sentence as sort of the definition of PRC. For definition of China, it should be in the China page. Should there be any people having such need of such definition, they would have searched the term: ''China'' and arrived at that page. Therefore, if any definition is needed it should be on that page, this article should focus on PRC. ::::::::Description of facts does not need views, there's a sentence that comes after it: '' it is administered by the Republic of China'', also description of fact. Both Sentence added together: PRC claims soverinity over Taiwan, PRC is not currently controlling it, ROC is currently controlling Taiwan, I see this is good enough. So can you please point out(with quote) where you see as the said Blue Camp's view ''PRC is a subset of China''? --User:Winhunter 17:21, 14 May 2005 (UTC) :Ok, let's take a look at the first sentence of your version, the definition of the PRC. :''The People's Republic of China (PRC) is a state that comprises most of the cultural, historic, and geographic area known as China.'' :What does this imply? This implies that: :*The PRC does not comprise all of China. :In other words, there are regions which are part of China, but not part of the PRC. Do you agree with this interpretation? -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 19:37, May 14, 2005 (UTC) ::I'd say this is a controversial issue, the reason of not using ''all'' is because it's POV, however, the use of word ''most'' is correct in any case. --User:Winhunter 01:38, 15 May 2005 (UTC) :So all is POV, but most isn't? -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 01:47, May 15, 2005 (UTC) ::Because we never able to know what's ''all'', so ''most'' is the best description. --User:Winhunter 06:22, 15 May 2005 (UTC) :What? I don't understand this. All means that the PRC includes all parts of China. Most means that the PRC does not include all parts of China. If all is POV, how can most be NPOV??? It's like saying, if "Taiwan is not a part of China" is POV, how is "Taiwan is not a part of China" NPOV??! -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 13:51, May 15, 2005 (UTC) ::I am trying to say, the definition of ''all China'' varies a lot, all China = China in Tong Dynasty? Ching Dynasty? Or others? What's the definiton of ''all China''? We may never know, however, the use of word ''most'' should be correct in any case. --User:Winhunter 14:12, 15 May 2005 (UTC) :The PRC defines China to be all areas that it either controls or claims. Areas that it does not control etc. (Taiwan, etc.) are also part of both China and the PRC, they are just temporarily being occupied by other powers. So you see, China = PRC in this case. So the use of most is not NPOV. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 14:20, May 15, 2005 (UTC) ::I see the world generally perceives the term China as the land that includes the area controlled by PRC and ROC, even the CIA World's factbook: [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/maps/ch-map.gif Map of China in CIA World's factbook], so you see, the use of the term ''most'' conforms with the definition of how the world sees the term of China. --User:Winhunter 17:22, 15 May 2005 (UTC) :No it doesn't. The PRC refers to China as synonymous to the PRC. In other words, the PRC conceives of Taiwan as being part of the PRC and temporarily administered by an enemy regime on the other side of an unfinished civil war. So you see, it is utterly wrong, from the PRC's point of view, to say that "the PRC comprises most of China". :The Green Camp in Taiwan also refers to China as synonymous to the PRC. Hoewver, this China does not include Taiwan. Thus, it is also utterly wrong from the Green Camp's point to view, to say that "the PRC comprises most of China". -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 20:13, May 15, 2005 (UTC) Should we add a short paragraph somewhere in the article to explain the use and the meaning of "China" in common use, the policy based on community consensus on Wikipedia, and direct readers to the China article, the manual of style and the conventions? The meaning of China really varies and depends on situation. In common use, politically it is often used to refer to the PRC, while talking economy and many other topics it may mean only the mainland. — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 10:08, May 16, 2005 (UTC) :It think it'd be nice if you give an example parahraph before I comment, however, I give my support to redirect readers to the China article for the definition in any case. :I still feel most of the world feels China included the total area controlled by PRC & ROC, and I see those governmental claims as political ones, which, if you think it's really necessary, can be mentioned. (''all'' in what case and ''most'' in what case) --User:Winhunter 12:19, 16 May 2005 (UTC) For starters, the rest of the world generally considers China to be just the PRC. I believe you yourself were saying this somewhere else. Also, these are not just political claims. Nationalist fervor is reaching a high point in mainland China, while the Green camp is winning elections in Taiwan. So we're talking about very popular viewpoints here. Also, mentioning all viewpoints is exactly what my version tries to do. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 12:24, May 16, 2005 (UTC) :My suggestion: '' In common use by the mass media, the word "China" is often used synonomously to the territories administered by the PRC, while territories under the Republic of China government are, although not entirely correct and ignoring islands on the coast of the continent, referred to as "Taiwan". In economic and trade contexts, as well as in sport events, and in presentation of statistical information, however, "China" is usually used to refer to mainland China, excluding Hong Kong, Macao and ROC-administered territories. Although in most cultural contexts Taiwan is considered part of the broader sense of "China", whether Taiwan is geographically part of "China" is subject to political disputes. For further details, please refer to the China article. '' Feel free to comment and make necessary changes. :-D — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 15:01, May 16, 2005 (UTC) :Here's an article from BBC News Online that "China" is used meaning the mainland: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4515503.stm HK quashes Falun Gong convictions]. One of the paragraphs from this article is "'' Falun Gong is banned in China and its practitioners complain they are subject to sometimes violent persecution, but they are free to practice in Hong Kong.'' ". — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 15:09, May 16, 2005 (UTC) Ran: I am not going to argue with you any longer about the definition due to its difficulty to prove how the world thinks, thus further arguments would simply become arguing over positions. Instantnood: Your definition is good, though some minor changes is necessary. Like, ''however, "China" is usually used to refer to mainland China, excluding Hong Kong, Macao and ROC-administered territories'' should change to ''however, "China" is usually used to refer to China excluding Hong Kong, Macau and ROC-administered territories'' OR ''however, "China" is usually used to refer to mainland China, which excludes Hong Kong, Macau and ROC-administered territories.'' I give my support to put this into the China article, however I still feel it's a little bit long to put into this article, thus I think it's best to keep only that about the PRC and remove those about ROC and Taiwan, and redirect readers to the China article for the full definition. --User:Winhunter 00:25, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :Winhunter: by ignoring POVs and contradicting yourself ("the world means Mainland China when they say China"; "the world means PRC when they say China"; "China is PRC + ROC") you have not achieved your original purpose, which was to disprove my revision to the intro. :Here it is for everyone to see: ::::The '''People's Republic of China (PRC) is a state in East Asia. Since its founding in 1949, it has been led by the Communist Party of China (CPC), and has administered a large amount of territory commonly known as Mainland China (or simply \"China\", for short). The PRC has also administered Hong Kong and Macau since 1997 and 1999 respectively. In addition, the PRC claims sovereignty over the zone of control the Republic of China (ROC); this includes Taiwan Island, the Pescadores, Quemoy, and Matsu Islands. The PRC considers the combined area of control of both itself and the ROC as a complete and indivisible country known as China'''. This definition of China, and the political status of Taiwan, are controversial subjects, with many in the ROC conceiving of the ROC as an independent Taiwanese nation. :I've removed the word "rival" because it is sketchy, but I fail to see what's wrong with the rest of it or how it is not more NPOV than what we have. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 01:02, May 17, 2005 (UTC) First of all, I fail to see where you quote this from: "''the world means Mainland China when they say China''", second I already mentioned above that further arguments over the term of China would become arguing over positions because of it's difficult to prove what the world thinks. Third, I said the world thinks the China is the area controlled by both PRC & ROC. I stated over and over again that it's commonly known as China only, NOT MAINLAND CHINA, I already mentioned above in what circumstances they used such term. And that ''PRC claims sovereignty over the zone of control the....'', where similar meaning sentence is already mentioend in the original article, which, I see no reason to change, as mentioned above. --User:Winhunter 02:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :Because using the word most in the first sentence is POV. It's not "difficult to prove" what the attitude of the PRC is - that it encompasses all of China and is synonymous with it. To present most as an NPOV fact, then all as a POV, is itself POV. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 13:15, May 17, 2005 (UTC) I did not say difficult to prove what the PRC thinks, I said it is difficult to prove ''what the world thinks about the term China''. The use of the word most is base on my definition of China, which, as stated above, I see no point to argue with you any longer about such definition due to the difficulty to prove. --User:Winhunter 13:34, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :It's not "difficult to prove". The difficulty is that the world has different ways of thinking about China, thus both "most" and "all" are POV. There is no single definition and our current article (your version) does not reflect this. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 13:39, May 17, 2005 (UTC) Wouldn't this be contradicting the statment you made earlier :"''For starters, the rest of the world generally considers China to be just the PRC.''", where you seems to say that most of the world considers China in one way? --User:Winhunter 15:02, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :Why would that contradict what I said? The rest of the world (i.e. outside China) generally considers China = PRC without Taiwan, but the PRC considers China = PRC with Taiwan. The Blue camp considers China = PRC without Taiwan + ROC (Taiwan). The PRC, the blue camp, and the rest of the world think differently. Why would this be a contradiction? :Besides, so what if the rest of the world considers China to be PRC without Taiwan? If you really think that, then shouldn't you disagree with your own version, which states without question China to be PRC without Taiwan + ROC (Taiwan), the blue camp interpretation? -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 15:11, May 17, 2005 (UTC) :Let me do a simple side by side comparison: {| ! Viewpoint !! Your version !! My version |- | PRC view + Blue camp view: China includes Mainland China and Taiwan || presented as fact || presented as POV |- | Green camp + rest of world view: China is PRC, excludes Taiwan || not presented || presented as POV |} :Now who is more NPOV? -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 15:14, May 17, 2005 (UTC) I guess we have to take into consideration that "China", and sometimes even "People's Republic of China", is used, though inaccurate, to refer to mainland China alone, excluding Hong Kong and Macao. And by the way "Maca''o''" is the spelling used by the Macanese government in English, including the cover of the passports it issues, although "Maca''u''" is sometimes used. "Maca''u''" is always used in Portuguese. — User:InstantnoodUser_talk:Instantnood 18:28, May 17, 2005 (UTC) Ran: And how do you prove that the rest of the world thinks it that way, this is where we have difference in position and where I say is difficult to prove! Instantnood: Ok.. I never know about the Portuguese version as I have no knowledge whatsoever about it. As for that the use of China, when it's used to describe a country, it's PRC, when it's used in other places (like sporting events or similar), due to the specialities of Macao and Hong Kong(heh and that's why they are called SAR(s)), China is the term used to describe mainland China alone. So in this article, we should say PRC is being referred in short as China only. --User:Winhunter 00:07, 18 May 2005 (UTC) :Winhunter: who cares? You're the one who brought up this entire "what the world thinks" issue in the first place. Either way the Green Camp thinks it, yet you're not presenting it in your version. Unless you can prove that The Green Camp considers Taiwan to be a part of China, your version is unacceptable. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 00:21, May 18, 2005 (UTC) I brought this up to explain my reasoning, but fine, if you dislike the word most so much, then it can be changed this way: The People's Republic of China (PRC) is a state that is commonly known as China, comprises most of the cultural, historic, known as China. --User:Winhunter 02:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC) :The word "most" is still there. And now you're confusing the reader... :Here's a revision on my version: ::::The '''People's Republic of China (PRC) is a state in East Asia. Since its founding in 1949, it has been led by the Communist Party of China (CPC). The PRC claims sovereignty over but does not administer the zone of control the Republic of China (ROC), which includes Taiwan Island, the Pescadores, Quemoy, and Matsu Islands, all of which it considers as a complete and indivisible country known as China'''. This definition of China, and the political status of Taiwan, are controversial subjects, with many in the ROC conceiving of the ROC as a Taiwanese nation independent of China. ::::The term "mainland China" is sometimes used to denote the area under the PRC's rule, usually excluding the two Special Administrative Regions, Hong Kong and Macau. The PRC is sometimes also referred to as "Red China", especially by its political opponents and critics, in reference to the association between the color red and communism. :-- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 02:56, May 18, 2005 (UTC)\ The term most was used to describe cultural and historic, and you feel this is incorrect? And you feel that PRC is not commonly known as China? --User:Winhunter 11:38, 18 May 2005 (UTC) :The word "most" implies that Taiwan is a part of the "cultural and historic" entity called China. This is POV. Many people feel that Taiwan is not a part of China in any sense. :Also, of course the PRC is commonly known as China. If you feel that I'm not bringing this out sufficiently, here's a rewrite: ::::The '''People's Republic of China (PRC or China''') is a state in East Asia. Since its founding in 1949, it has been led by the Communist Party of China (CPC). The PRC claims sovereignty over but does not administer the zone of control the Republic of China (ROC), which includes Taiwan Island, the Pescadores, Quemoy, and Matsu Islands, all of which it considers as the complete and indivisible country of China. This definition of China is controversial, with many in the ROC conceiving of the ROC as a Taiwanese nation independent of China. See China and Political status of Taiwan for more information. ::::The term "mainland China" is sometimes used to denote the area under the PRC's rule, usually excluding the two Special Administrative Regions, Hong Kong and Macau. The PRC is sometimes also referred to as "Red China", especially by its political opponents and critics, in reference to the association between the color red and communism. : -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 15:35, May 18, 2005 (UTC) What? The word "most" is used to describe PRC, NOT TAIWAN, it just imply how much cultural and historic PRC has inherited, which have nothing to do with Taiwan. --User:Winhunter 10:45, 19 May 2005 (UTC) :Do you really need me to draw a Venn diagram for you??? When you say that the "PRC comprises most of China", you mean that there is a part of China not in the PRC. Now, which part is it if it's not Taiwan? Please, offer some suggestions. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 15:53, May 19, 2005 (UTC) Didn't I removed the word "most" in the geographical description? In my suggested version as shown above, I only shown how PRC is being referred in short, and I see no problem to use "most" in cultural and historic. --User:Winhunter 15:57, 19 May 2005 (UTC) :Okay, which part of cultural China does the PRC not include? Please keep in mind that the Chinese diaspora is not the same thing as China. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 16:03, May 19, 2005 (UTC) Fine, so you suggest to change it to all? --User:Winhunter 16:07, 19 May 2005 (UTC) :Why would I suggest that?! It would be just as bad. And I have already posted my suggestion. -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 16:26, May 19, 2005 (UTC) You mentioned "which part of cultural China does the PRC not include?", it's just like asking "isn't everything included?"--User:Winhunter 17:00, 19 May 2005 (UTC) :Okay, is Taiwan a part of cultural China? :Also, please tell me, do you understand what NPOV means? -- User:Ran (User talk:Ran) 17:12, May 19, 2005 (UTC) If I understand what POV means then how can I not understanding what's NPOV? And I see no problem to include Taiwan because ROC by it's country name is saying it's part of China (that OC part) (Look, I NOT saying here it's part of PRC, nor do I say here it's PRC's sovereignty), and even if you exclude Taiwan, do you have in mind that PRC underwent cultural revolution(s) in its history? Some of them are very destructive, so the Chinese culture it inheried must not be all of them, but most. --User:Winhunter 23:14, 19 May 2005 (UTC) :#Lots of people in Taiwan want to change the name of the "Republic of China". They do not feel that Taiwan is part of any geographical or cultural entity called "China". Look, if you think that it's okay to present "Taiwan is a part of cultural China" as fact, based on Taiwan's official name, then why do you think there's so much dispute going on over at Taiwan? :#If that's your definition of "comprising a cultural entity", then we might as well scrap that portion altogether. All cultures are constantly changing, and no cultural entity can comprise the entirety of itself even one year before, or one day before. As such, to say that any state comprises "most" of any cultural entity is essentially meaningless. But this is clearly not what the original author intended when writing this paragraph. The original author intended the "cultural entity" to mean the Chinese civilization, i.e. what's described at the article China. This cultural entity also has a geographical extent associated with it, and to use the word "most" woul