
#REDIRECT Pannonian plain
The Pannonian plain is a large plain in central/south-eastern Europe that remained when the Pliocene Pannonian Sea (see below) dried out. The river Danube divides the plain roughly in half. The plain is roughly bounded by the Carpathian mountains, the Alps, the Dinaric Alps and the Balkan mountains. Because of the long Carpathian border, it can also be referred to as the Carpathian Basin. Another term is ''Great Hungarian Plain'', though it is seldom used. The former Kingdom of Hungary was centered around the plain and included almost all of it. The basin forms a topographically discrete unit set in the European landscape, surrounded by imposing geographic boundaries that have created a fairly unified cultural area that looks more towards the south and east than to the north and west. Although the rain is not plentiful, it usually falls when necessary and the plain is a major agriculture area; it is sometimes said that these fields of rich loamy loess soil could feed the whole of Europe. For its early settlers, the plain offered few sources of metals or stone. Thus when archaeologists come upon objects of obsidian or chert, copper or gold, they have almost unparalleled opportunities to interpret ancient pathways of trade. Today the plain is divided among Croatia, Hungary, Slovakia, Austria, Romania, Ukraine and Serbia and Montenegro. The ''peripannonian'' lands, areas around this plain but not elevated like the surrounding mountains, also spread into Slovenia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Large areas of the plain that do not necessarily correspond to national borders include: *Baranya (Hungary, Croatia) *Backa (Serbia and Montenegro, Hungary) *Banat (Romania, Serbia and Montenegro, Hungary) *Macva (Serbia and Montenegro) *Moslavina (Croatia) *Podravina (Croatia, Hungary, around Drava river) *Pokuplje (Croatia, around Kupa river) *Posavina (Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia and Montenegro, around Sava (river) river) *Semberija (Bosnia and Herzegovina) *Slavonia (Croatia) *Srem (region) (Serbia and Montenegro, Croatia) *Transylvania (Romania) *Vojvodina (Serbia and Montenegro) *''several more inside Hungary, see: Counties of Hungary, Regions of Hungary'' ===Pannonian Sea=== The precursor to the present plain was a shallow sea that reached its greatest extent during the Pliocene, when three to four kilometres of sediments were deposited. ==See also== * Pannonia ==External link== *[http://www.anthro.fsu.edu/research/koros/overview/arch_background/arch_background.html Körös Regional Archaeological Project]: Neolithic and Copper Age archaeology in the Pannonian plain European geography Geography of Croatia Geography of Hungary Geography of Slovakia Geography of Austria Geography of Romania Geography of Ukraine Vojvodina Serbia Banat Backa Srem
==relevance to Kingdom of Hungary== PANONIAN wrote: ''Deleted statement: "This more or less includes the historical territory of the Hungarian Kingdom", because borders of Hungarian Kingdom were very different then borders of the Pannonian Plain.'' : How so? They're very similar AFAICT. --User:Joy 22:11, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC) ------------------------------------------------------------------ For Joy: I think that you reverted this page, but you didn’t see what other changes I make in this page. I will make these changes again, except of this disputed one. I added Ukraine as one of the countries among which is divided Pannonian Plain (I believe that this fact is not disputed, since Transcarpathia Province of Ukraine is partially located in the Pannonian Plain). I changed order of names of the countries in which is located Backa region (Most of Backa is in Serbia-Montenegro and smaller part in Hungary, so, that should be order of names here). Same thing with Banat: largest part is in Romania, then in Serbia-Montenegro and smallest part in Hungary. Largest part of Baranja is in Hungary, and the smaller one in Croatia. : Okay. I saw those, but I didn't think anyone will mind the rollback, because you mainly changed from alphabetical sorting to another method - a fairly minor change tacked on to the main one. I'm afraid I missed the mention of Ukraine, sorry about that. --User:Joy Now, second question: "This more or less includes the historical territory of the Hungarian Kingdom". First of all, what is the meaning of the word "historical" anyway? One definition of the word history is change. So, Hungarian Kingdom had different borders in different parts of history. To what historical period this statement applies anyway? You see what is the problem if you use the word "historical". This word is not proper for this kind of use at all (Not if you do not specify exact time period to what this statement apply). If you use this terminology in this way you could to say that Bulgaria is historical territory of Turkey, for example. But I see this statement as nonsense if we do not specify exact time period in which Bulgaria was territory of Turkey. : I agree that there were periods in history when the Hungarian kingdom didn't encompass most of the plain, however, that was mostly due to the Ottoman occupation which was eventually repelled and turned out to be transient. I'm open to suggestions as to how to rephrase it to avoid the 16th, 17th and 18th century, of course... --User:Joy Now, lets assume that you talk about borders of Hungarian Kingdom, as they were about 1900. See map: http://www.thomasgraz.net/map-H-1920.htm Now see map of the Pannonian Plain: http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/summer.jpg I see large differences here. Hungarian Kingdom was centred in the Pannonian Plain, but it also included non-Pannonian lands, such are mountains of Transylvania (very large part of the Kingdom), and also mountains of Slovakia, Croatia and Ukraine. : It included the surrounding mountains, but they were relatively small and insignificant compared to the part that was in the plain. --User:Joy On the contrary, Hungarian Kingdom didn’t include some peripheral parts of Pannonian Plain, located in Austria, Serbia-Montenegro, Slovenia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. : I don't have the impression that the differences are large. Let's review in more detail which peripheral parts it miss: it had Burgenland more often than not, it had all of today's Vojvodina — meaning it only missed the plains on the left bank of Sava and Danube, as well as the valley of Velika Morava — and it also had Prekmurje AFAIR. --User:Joy Now, what we will do here? If these maps didn’t convince you to delete this statement (and they should to), at least you should to change the word "historical". What is your opinion? : The sentence says "more or less" for a reason, and I believe that it's sufficiently accurate... but I wouldn't mind replacing the vague adjective "historical". I'd object to the complete removal of this note because it's rather pertinent with regard to history. --User:Joy 22:28, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Ok Joy, I still do not agree with you, since I still claim that borders of Hungarian Kingdom and borders of Pannonian Plain are not similar. However, this is not important question and I will not argue further about this with you. I will only change this statement to sound better: "This more or less includes the territory of the former Hungarian Kingdom". I will change this in the article and you are free to revert if you do not agree with this change. PANONIAN ------------------------------------------------------------------ : I've rephrased the article further, please see if this is better. --User:Joy 18:28, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC) I have no objections. By the way, I uploaded map of Pannonian Plain (I hope it would be acceptable). PANONIAN =="unified" and "looks more toward"== : ''[...] surrounded by imposing geographic boundaries that have created a fairly unified cultural area that looks more towards the south and east than to the north and west.'' Can someone elaborate this? Why exactly are the Dinarides, the Balkan mountain and the Translyvanian Alps more apt for "looking" at compared to the Tatras and the eastern Alps? How is the landscape causing the area to look more toward some region, anyway? I don't quite see how this follows in this case. --User:Joy 18:28, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC) This sentence is weird indeed. Perhaps it should be changed to sound better. PANONIAN ==Difference between Pannonian Plain and Great Hungarian Plain== This difference should be dealt with in some detail, since the latter term is also mentioned in the article, although there is a concept of ''Alföld'' or ''Nagyalföld'' (Great Plain), which is only a part of the Pannonian Plain. It ends at Dunántúli-középhegység (Transdanubian mountains) and Mecsek mountain in the west (so it certainly does not include most of the Transdanubian area) and at Északi-középhegység (Northern mountains) in the north. In short, the Pannonian Plain is bigger than today's Hungary, and the Great Plain is smaller; they should not be confused. Could anyone clarify it in the article? -User:Adam78 03:20, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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Pannonian Plain
#REDIRECT Pannonian plain
Pannonian plain
The Pannonian plain is a large plain in central/south-eastern Europe that remained when the Pliocene Pannonian Sea (see below) dried out. The river Danube divides the plain roughly in half. The plain is roughly bounded by the Carpathian mountains, the Alps, the Dinaric Alps and the Balkan mountains. Because of the long Carpathian border, it can also be referred to as the Carpathian Basin. Another term is ''Great Hungarian Plain'', though it is seldom used. The former Kingdom of Hungary was centered around the plain and included almost all of it. The basin forms a topographically discrete unit set in the European landscape, surrounded by imposing geographic boundaries that have created a fairly unified cultural area that looks more towards the south and east than to the north and west. Although the rain is not plentiful, it usually falls when necessary and the plain is a major agriculture area; it is sometimes said that these fields of rich loamy loess soil could feed the whole of Europe. For its early settlers, the plain offered few sources of metals or stone. Thus when archaeologists come upon objects of obsidian or chert, copper or gold, they have almost unparalleled opportunities to interpret ancient pathways of trade. Today the plain is divided among Croatia, Hungary, Slovakia, Austria, Romania, Ukraine and Serbia and Montenegro. The ''peripannonian'' lands, areas around this plain but not elevated like the surrounding mountains, also spread into Slovenia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Large areas of the plain that do not necessarily correspond to national borders include: *Baranya (Hungary, Croatia) *Backa (Serbia and Montenegro, Hungary) *Banat (Romania, Serbia and Montenegro, Hungary) *Macva (Serbia and Montenegro) *Moslavina (Croatia) *Podravina (Croatia, Hungary, around Drava river) *Pokuplje (Croatia, around Kupa river) *Posavina (Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia and Montenegro, around Sava (river) river) *Semberija (Bosnia and Herzegovina) *Slavonia (Croatia) *Srem (region) (Serbia and Montenegro, Croatia) *Transylvania (Romania) *Vojvodina (Serbia and Montenegro) *''several more inside Hungary, see: Counties of Hungary, Regions of Hungary'' ===Pannonian Sea=== The precursor to the present plain was a shallow sea that reached its greatest extent during the Pliocene, when three to four kilometres of sediments were deposited. ==See also== * Pannonia ==External link== *[http://www.anthro.fsu.edu/research/koros/overview/arch_background/arch_background.html Körös Regional Archaeological Project]: Neolithic and Copper Age archaeology in the Pannonian plain European geography Geography of Croatia Geography of Hungary Geography of Slovakia Geography of Austria Geography of Romania Geography of Ukraine Vojvodina Serbia Banat Backa Srem
Pannonian plain
==relevance to Kingdom of Hungary== PANONIAN wrote: ''Deleted statement: "This more or less includes the historical territory of the Hungarian Kingdom", because borders of Hungarian Kingdom were very different then borders of the Pannonian Plain.'' : How so? They're very similar AFAICT. --User:Joy 22:11, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC) ------------------------------------------------------------------ For Joy: I think that you reverted this page, but you didn’t see what other changes I make in this page. I will make these changes again, except of this disputed one. I added Ukraine as one of the countries among which is divided Pannonian Plain (I believe that this fact is not disputed, since Transcarpathia Province of Ukraine is partially located in the Pannonian Plain). I changed order of names of the countries in which is located Backa region (Most of Backa is in Serbia-Montenegro and smaller part in Hungary, so, that should be order of names here). Same thing with Banat: largest part is in Romania, then in Serbia-Montenegro and smallest part in Hungary. Largest part of Baranja is in Hungary, and the smaller one in Croatia. : Okay. I saw those, but I didn't think anyone will mind the rollback, because you mainly changed from alphabetical sorting to another method - a fairly minor change tacked on to the main one. I'm afraid I missed the mention of Ukraine, sorry about that. --User:Joy Now, second question: "This more or less includes the historical territory of the Hungarian Kingdom". First of all, what is the meaning of the word "historical" anyway? One definition of the word history is change. So, Hungarian Kingdom had different borders in different parts of history. To what historical period this statement applies anyway? You see what is the problem if you use the word "historical". This word is not proper for this kind of use at all (Not if you do not specify exact time period to what this statement apply). If you use this terminology in this way you could to say that Bulgaria is historical territory of Turkey, for example. But I see this statement as nonsense if we do not specify exact time period in which Bulgaria was territory of Turkey. : I agree that there were periods in history when the Hungarian kingdom didn't encompass most of the plain, however, that was mostly due to the Ottoman occupation which was eventually repelled and turned out to be transient. I'm open to suggestions as to how to rephrase it to avoid the 16th, 17th and 18th century, of course... --User:Joy Now, lets assume that you talk about borders of Hungarian Kingdom, as they were about 1900. See map: http://www.thomasgraz.net/map-H-1920.htm Now see map of the Pannonian Plain: http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/summer.jpg I see large differences here. Hungarian Kingdom was centred in the Pannonian Plain, but it also included non-Pannonian lands, such are mountains of Transylvania (very large part of the Kingdom), and also mountains of Slovakia, Croatia and Ukraine. : It included the surrounding mountains, but they were relatively small and insignificant compared to the part that was in the plain. --User:Joy On the contrary, Hungarian Kingdom didn’t include some peripheral parts of Pannonian Plain, located in Austria, Serbia-Montenegro, Slovenia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. : I don't have the impression that the differences are large. Let's review in more detail which peripheral parts it miss: it had Burgenland more often than not, it had all of today's Vojvodina — meaning it only missed the plains on the left bank of Sava and Danube, as well as the valley of Velika Morava — and it also had Prekmurje AFAIR. --User:Joy Now, what we will do here? If these maps didn’t convince you to delete this statement (and they should to), at least you should to change the word "historical". What is your opinion? : The sentence says "more or less" for a reason, and I believe that it's sufficiently accurate... but I wouldn't mind replacing the vague adjective "historical". I'd object to the complete removal of this note because it's rather pertinent with regard to history. --User:Joy 22:28, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Ok Joy, I still do not agree with you, since I still claim that borders of Hungarian Kingdom and borders of Pannonian Plain are not similar. However, this is not important question and I will not argue further about this with you. I will only change this statement to sound better: "This more or less includes the territory of the former Hungarian Kingdom". I will change this in the article and you are free to revert if you do not agree with this change. PANONIAN ------------------------------------------------------------------ : I've rephrased the article further, please see if this is better. --User:Joy 18:28, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC) I have no objections. By the way, I uploaded map of Pannonian Plain (I hope it would be acceptable). PANONIAN =="unified" and "looks more toward"== : ''[...] surrounded by imposing geographic boundaries that have created a fairly unified cultural area that looks more towards the south and east than to the north and west.'' Can someone elaborate this? Why exactly are the Dinarides, the Balkan mountain and the Translyvanian Alps more apt for "looking" at compared to the Tatras and the eastern Alps? How is the landscape causing the area to look more toward some region, anyway? I don't quite see how this follows in this case. --User:Joy 18:28, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC) This sentence is weird indeed. Perhaps it should be changed to sound better. PANONIAN ==Difference between Pannonian Plain and Great Hungarian Plain== This difference should be dealt with in some detail, since the latter term is also mentioned in the article, although there is a concept of ''Alföld'' or ''Nagyalföld'' (Great Plain), which is only a part of the Pannonian Plain. It ends at Dunántúli-középhegység (Transdanubian mountains) and Mecsek mountain in the west (so it certainly does not include most of the Transdanubian area) and at Északi-középhegység (Northern mountains) in the north. In short, the Pannonian Plain is bigger than today's Hungary, and the Great Plain is smaller; they should not be confused. Could anyone clarify it in the article? -User:Adam78 03:20, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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