Norse Mythology

#REDIRECT Norse_mythology

Norse Mythology

is *Scandic* the general way to put this? Or should we use *Nordic*? --MichaelTinkler Hmmm. Perhaps, although the norse religion presumably originally came from germanic tribes and went through extensive mutation in the nordic countries, thereafter spreading with, and being influenced by colonizations in Russia, on the British isles and so forth...Maby something to write abaout :-) --Anders T�rlind Yes, this is a very complex area with considerable overlap. Many of my sources link or coincide; often the spellings of names differ (often to the point of unrecognisability) but the dramatis personae are functionally the same... User:sjc

On another note, here is my little wishlist for this page: * The development of the Norse mythology, from its eraly beginnings and the ousting of the nerthus cult in Scandinavia, to its eventual decline and disappearance under the influence of christianity * A part where all the sagas of the gods are collected for those that want to read up (some major work there!) * A section covering the actual worship of the gods themselves, as it appeared in the various regions and how it changed over time. Not knowledgable enough myself to do it, but i sure can wish, hehe. Piece of cake :-) -- User:Anders Torlind

Anyone have an English or Icelandic versions of the eddas at hand for scanning and OCR-ing? The English translations might be copyrighted (not sure...depends on publishing date i suppose), but the original texts are most certainly in the public domain. I could do the OCR if someone were to send the scanned pages (to a mail address disclosed later, see spamming :-). Hmmm? --Anders T�rlind Most of my stuff is rare, either out of print or Victorian translations which I'd be ''very'' reluctant to damage, and use typefaces which I don't think will scan very easily. I will have a look around the second hand bookshops and see if I can find anything we could use for this. I guess we could also approach Project Gutenberg on this front as well. User:sjc Later: If you're interested Anders, there is a terrific bunch of texts online already at http://www.angelfire.com/on/Wodensharrow/texts.html - I'm not sure about the copyright issues, however, with some of their texts... User:sjc Im off to check them out now... --Anders T�rlind Later: There is a transcript of the islandic version of havam�l we should be able to swipe. Who could reasonably have copyright on that one? --Anders T�rlind The person doing the transcription? I don't know, really; but I would counsel caution. User:sjc I'm no lawyer, but I don't think you can copyright transcription. certainly the translation of a transcription is the property of the translator and not subject to anything the transcriber might say or want. hrm... -User:trimalchio ---- Yesterday I merged the existing material with some old lecture notes of mine. There is a little duplication in there now, but at least some of the wishlist above should be satisfied. There is AFAIK no clear, generally recognised timeline between the cults described by Tacitus and the gods of the Eddas-User:clasqm. Yes, nice work clasqm; I was wondering how we were going to address a number of these issues and you have clearly given us a good steer on a number of fronts. Many thanks. User:sjc ------ I just edited the Tacitus portion - his opinion of the Romans is not very important for his (extremely limited) information on Germanic deities - it's more important for avoiding uncritical acceptance of his characterization of Germanic warrior-society. I also removed the "Frankish French" successors of Charlemagne. Charlemagne and all his successors for at least 50 years were Franks, so it is irrelevant. The fate of Charlemagne's library is somewhat problematic - the pagan material wasn't burned because it was pagan, or otherwise LOTS of the Roman pagan material that only survives b/c of Charlemagne wouldn't survive. --MichaelTinkler -------------------------------- It is fine with me the way it is written now. It was however the French side of the Frankish descendends , who destroyed the German pre-christian collection of Charlemagne. You probably only need one hand to count what is left, like the Merseburger Zaubersprueche etc from ca 800, exept for the earlier Germanic Atta Unsar. Your guess is as good as mine, why the French destroyed the German writings , but kept the Roman writings. user:H.J. ----------------------------- The survival of ANY manuscript from before the invention of printing is both a matter of accident and a testimony to actual interest. If readers cared, there would be more copies. So part of the mystery is why the so called German Franks didn't make a copy. They were not systematically destroyed. They were also not systematically preserved. Anything that was not systematically preserved (by interested parties who copied and recopied manuscripts) survived only by accident. Another useful question is why didn't later literate germanic-language speakers write down more of them. The survival, accidental and otherwise, of medieval texts is a field about which I know a lot, so don't get started on this. Please, H.J., let me suggest ''Before France and Germany' by P. Geary. The East Frankish royal family was just as Christian as the West Frankish royal family. --MichaelTinkler ---- Helga -- as a Carolingianist, I'd really like to know what sources you are using. I'm not denying them, just interested, because I'm not familiar with them. User:JHK ---- A note for user:H.J.. Norse Mythology is not a page for conspiracy theory regarding ''missing Germanic texts'' which have little bearing since they no longer exist, and one cannot possibly speculate what they may or may not have contained. The page has subsequently been edited to reflect facts rather than your ideologically motivated agenda of surmise. User:sjc ---- We currently have Fenris listed under Gods. I know he's Loki's li'l un and all, but isn't that pushing the point a little? Maybe move to Miscellaneous Beings further down? - User:clasqm :yep, I think so - given the other beasts in that part of the list it makes sense. --MichaelTinkler Agreed, no problem from my point of view. I would have put him there myself, but Anders was doing such a sterling job... User:sjc ---- Anders, The Uppsala spelling seems to be in every permutation in English: I am not sure what we should do here, maybe just put the redirects in to cover all the bases? User:sjc Heh, leave it to the anglosaxons to never get a non-english word right ;-) Lets have the current spelling and see what happens (since I get a lot of hits for "Uppsala" in English on Google, it can't be that wrong). It'll sort itself, it always does ^_^ --Anders Yeah, well as a Celt, I couldn't agree with you more. User:sjc ---- The description of User:Yggdrasil in that page conflicts somewhat with the description on the main page. Does Yggdrasil contain Asgard, Midgard, etc., or is Yggdrasil in Midgard? Or is contradiction actually a part of the mythology? At any rate, kudos to all the contributors. Great work! -- User:The_ansible Yggdrasil, the world ash contains ''everything''. I'll go and have a look see. Later: OK, I can see where the confusion arises. I'll clarify the Yggdrasil page. User:sjc --------- To User:MichaelTinkler etc , guess what I just found. I purchased a book at a library book sales, titled : "Music in History,The Evolution Of An Art,Howard D. McKinney and W.R. Anderson , American Book Company 1940, USA. I inserted the direct quote from this book in the Norse Mythology text. user:H.J. Alright, Helga. I've just looked up the book on the Cornell University Library web page. They wrote books of general music appreciation - neither was a historian, or even a specialist in medieval music. I'll look up the fate of Charlemagne's library. --MichaelTinkler. ---------- To User:MichaelTinkler. I knew it previously from other sources. This book is just one sample of other writers also familiar with this event. Besides history of music or history of arts or whatever is at least as important as historian writings, and probably more NPOV so, because after all "historians" are often political writers and are hired by parties with political agendas. :Yes, they often are political; historians come in a variety of types. So do music historians. There are music historians who specialize in medieval music. These two men did not; they wrote general books. The book you quote from is a general book. It is exactly the same as quoting something from a history book designed to be used in a first year college class - not very scholarly. '''That doesn't mean it's wrong, just not very dependable.''' There are many 'commonly held' beliefs which are incorrect. Let me recommend my favorite one: MANY intelligent people in the modern world seem to believe that ancient and medieval people thought the world was flat. That is not true. However, the Flat-Earth idea still shows up in history text books written for the high school and college student. An important popular historian, Daniel Boorstin, in his ''The Discoverers : A History of Man's Search to Know His World and Himself'' (ISBN 0394726251) repeated this myth as recently as 1985; another importan historian, Jeffrey Burton Russell, in his ''Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and Modern Historians'' (ISBN: 027595904X), proves that this is not so. Among other things, Russell teaches me that I have to examine 'familiar stories' that I learned from history class. They are not always true. --MichaelTinkler ------- For MichaelTinkler That goes for everything. My mother-in-law always said :"The only thing you can believe printed in the newspaper is the white part" . user:H.J. ---- First, what exactly does the sentence about enlightened Christians mean? It's really pretty nonsensical in the context of the times. Maybe they were just interested -- the way it's written now reads as a value judgment of Early mediaeval Christianity, i.e., most Christians in the Early Middle Ages were ignorant, superstitious barbarians, except for the enlightened few who believed in cultural relativity and therefore the value of pagan religion/mythology. I take exception to this. So there. Secondly, I have removed the two Carolingian sentences because no one seems to be able to substantiate them. I would love to do so myself, but don't have the time on my one day off a week to go to the UW library and read through the MGH. If anyone else has time, I am willing to bet that the necessary references are in Thegan, Astronomus, or the Annales Regni Francorum. As for the Charlemagne reference (Einhard 3.28), as written it was misleading. Einhard states that Charlemagne had the narrative poems of his ancestors written down, but these poems are specifically said to be about the deeds of heroic former kings. They could contain mythological elements, but could also be more oral history -- at any rate, I doubt these Frankish poems are Norse mythology, and find it difficult to believe that they were destroyed in some Louis-inspired religious book-burning. (Note: I had to look this up in translation, because I don't keep the MGH at home...). User:JHK ---------- Charlemagne and others in ca 800 wrote down pre-christian (pagan, heathen) Germanic stories , poems, songs from the continent. The North Mythology was written by Snorri Sturluson (1179 -1241). The places described and for many centuries though to be wild phantasy, are actual places in Iceland. user:H.J. :Sorry -- I don't think I was clear enough -- I have JUST READ the original source for the reports of Charlemagne ordering the poems to be written down. It is in Einhard's ''Vita Caroli Magni''. Unfortunately, I had to read this in translation, but there is nothing that implies that his purpose was to capture pre-christian myth. Indeed, the implication is that he wanted to show that his family and the Franks in general had long been conquering heroes. Everything you are quoting about Charlemagne is based on what Einhard said. I have read the original. I have given the reference so that someone with time can check the Latin. I don't understand why you cannot accept that what I have told you is true, and based on better evidence. User:JHK ::I checked the ''Annales Regni Francorum'' and Nithard's ''History'' (both in translation, in the volume ''Carolingian Chronicles'') yesterday to see if there was any mention of burning books that were 'pagan'. There wasn't. I also checked through 2 books by McKitterick that I have at home. Louis the Pious more or less dispersed Charlemagne's library in accordance with Charlemagne's will (which had ordered all his books sold and the proceeds given to the poor). The evidence is that though he did sell some, he kept others. There is no mention of burning. I don't have an MGH set either (wah! Liberal Arts libraries!). I have Astronomus on order through Interlibrary Loan for another reason, and I'll check there when it comes in; there's no time THIS week to get to Ithaca! I think this is an academic folktale. --MichaelTinkler. -------- To User:JHK and User:MichaelTinkler on Charlemagne's collection again. The book :"Karl der Grosse , Richard Winston, Bearbeitet und herausgegeben von Dr. Heinrich Pleticha, Ensslin & Laiblin Verlag Reutlingen, (English language edition 1968 by American Heritage Publ. Co,Inc" It states: "Dabei kuemmerte sich Karl aber nicht nur um die lateinische Sprache, sondern suchte auch das heimische Volkstum und die deutsche Sprache zu foerdern. So gab er den Monaten deutsche Namen, befahl die Abfassung einer deutschen Grammatik und liess germanische Heldenlieder sammeln und aufzeichnen. Leider wurde gerade diese Sammlung, die fuer uns heute so bedeutsam waere, wegen ihrer 'heidnischen' Einfluesse schon unter Ludwig dem Frommen wieder vernichtet." Transl. " Charlemagne did not only show an interest in the Latin language, he also saw to it, that the local customs and German language were furthered. He gave the months German names, ordered a German grammar and had Germanic Heroic songs collected and recorded. Regrettably, it was this particular collection, which would be for us today of great importance, that was already destroyed under Louis the Pious, because of its "heathen" influence. " user:H.J. :HJ, we *know* you can find references to this in modern secondary sources. Plese find one that gives a FOOTNOTE to a ninth century primary or secondary source giving the same story. I can't find any ninth century reference. I would be happy to use a later ninth or early tenth century reference, if it is made clear that the 10th century reference is not contemporary with the event. We are not concerned with what modern historians say about this circumstance, but on what they base their statement. Without a footnote to a text I can check, it sounds like 19th century blame-assignment for a 'lost text'. There are many, many 'lost texts' in the history of scholarship that we regret not having (Aristotle's lost book on Comedy (we have Tragedy) provided the plot for :Umberto Eco's ''The Name of the Rose''). However, simply asserting that Louis the Pious destroyed them because they were 'too pagan' without a reference is not enough. --MichaelTinkler

Norse mythology

{| border="0" cell-spacing="1" width="300" align="right" !align="center" bgcolor="darkorange" colspan="2"|Topics in Norse mythology |-align="center" !alig="left" bgcolor="darkseagreen"|Aesir (gods) |align="left"|Baldr, Bor (god), Brage, Buri, Byleist, Dagr, Delling, Forseti, Heimdall, Hermod, H�der, H�nir, Kvasir, Lodur, Magni, Meili, Modi, Odr, Odin, R�g, Thor, Tyr, Vali (Norse mythology), Ve, Vidar, Vile |-align="center" !align="left" bgcolor="darkseagreen"|Aesir (goddesses) |align=\"left\"|Bil, Eir, Frigg, Fulla, Gefjon, Gna, Hlin, Idun, Jord, Lofn, Nanna, Nott, Saga (mythology), Sif, Sigyn, Sj�fn, Snotra, Sol (goddess), Syn, Var (mythology), Vor, �r��r |-align=\"center\" !align=\"left\" bgcolor=\"darkseagreen\"|Vanir
(gods and goddesses) |align="left"|Frey (Yngvi), Freya, Gullveig, Nerthus, Njord, Ullr, Sveigder |-align="center" !align="left" bgcolor="cornflowerblue"|Norns (fates) |align="left"|Urd, Verdandi, Skuld |-align="center" !align="left" bgcolor="cornflowerblue"|Valkyries |align="left"|Brynhildr, G�ndul, Gunnr, Hildr, Hla�gunnr, R�ta, Skuld, Sigrdr�fa, Sigr�n, Sk�gul, Sv�va, �r��r |-align="center" !align="left" bgcolor="cornflowerblue"|Elf (�lfar) |align="left"|Beyla, Byggvir, Dokkalfar, Volund |-align="center" !align="left" bgcolor="cornflowerblue"|Jotuns (giants) |align="left"|Aegir, Angerboda, Baugi, Beli, Bergelmir, Bestla, Billing (giant), Bolthorn, Bor (god), Elle, Farbauti, Fenja, Fjalar, Fornj�t, Geirrod, Gerd, Gjalp, Greip, Gilling, Grid (Jotun), Gunnlod, Gymir, Hel (goddess), Hraesvelg, Hrod, Hrungnir, Hymir, Hyndla, Hyrrokkin, Jarnsaxa, Kari, Laufey, Loki, Mani (god) (moon), Menja, Modgunn, Mundilfari, Muspel, M�kkurkalfe, Narfe, N�rfe, Olvaldi, Ragnhild, Ran, Rind (giantess), Rym, Skadi, Sn�r, Suttung, Surtur, Thokk, Thiazi, Thrudgelmir, Thrym, Utgardaloki, Vafthruthnir, Ymir |-align="center" !align="left" bgcolor="cornflowerblue"|Norse dwarves |align="left"|Alvis, Andvari, Berling, Brokk, Durin, Dvalin, Eitri, Fafnir, Fjalar, Galar, Gandalf (norse mythology), Hjuki, Hreidmar, Lit, Lofar, Nordri, Sudri, Austri and Vestri, Nyi and Nidi, Otr, Regin, Sindri (dwarf) |-align="center" !align="left" bgcolor="deepskyblue"|People |align="left"|Adils, Agne, Ask, Aslaug (Kraka), Bj�rn Ironside, B�dvar Bjarki, Berserkers, Dag the Wise, Domalde, Draugr, Dyggve, Egil, Einherjar, Embla, Erik and Alrik, Fj�lnir, Frodi, Glam, Grimhild, Gylfi, Haddingjar, Hagbard and Signy, Haki,Halfdan, Halfdan the Old, Harald Hildetand, Hedin, Helgi Hundingsbane, Hjalmar, Hr�lf Kraki, Hugleik, Hvitserk, Ingeborg, Ingjald, Jorund, Karl, Krimhild, Lif, Liftrasir, Marmennill, N�r, Ohthere, Raum the Old, Roskva, Sigar, Siggeir, Sigmund, Signy, Sigurd, Sigurd Ring, Sinfj�tli, Skagul Toste, Skirnir, Sveigder, Svipdag, Thj�lfi, Vanlade, werewolf, V�lva, Yngvi and Alf, Yrsa |-align="center" !align="left" bgcolor="deepskyblue"|Animals |align="left"|Alsvinn, Arvaker, Audhumbla, Eiktyrner, Fenrir, Freke, Garm, Geri, Grani, Guldmani, Gullinbursti, Gullinkambi, Gulltopp, Hati, Heidrun, Hildisvini, Hovvarpnir, Hrimfaxi, Hugin, Lindorm, Midgard serpent, Munin, M�negarm, Nidhogg, Ratatosk, Skinfaxi, Skoll, Sleipner, Svadilfari, Sahrimnir, Tanngnjost, Tanngrisnir, Ve�rfoln�r |-align="center" !align="left" bgcolor="dodgerblue"|Locations |align="left"|�lfheim, �sgard, Barrey, Bifrost, Bilskirne, Breidablik, Elivagar, Eljudne, Fensalir, Folkvang, Gimli, Ginnungagap, Gjallar Brigde, Gj�ll, Gladsheim, Glaser, Glitnir, Gnipa, Himinbj�rg, Hindarfj�ll, Horgr, Idavoll, Jotunheim, J�rnskogen, Lidskjalf, Midgard (Middle-Earth), Muspelheim, Mirkwood, Nastrond, Niflheim, Noatun, Singasten, Slidr River, S�kkvabekkr, Trudvang, Trymheim, Utgard, Valhall, Vanaheim, Hvergelmir, Vigrid, Vilmur, Vingolf, Ydalir, Yggdrasil |-align="center" !align="left" bgcolor="dodgerblue"|Artifacts |align="left"|Andvarinaut, Brisingamen, Draupnir, Gand, Gjallarhorn, Gleipnir, Gram (mythology), Grotte, Gungnir, Helgrind, Helskor, Megingjord, Well of Mimir, Misteltein, Mjolnir, Naglfar, Odr�rer, Reginnaglar, Ringhorne, Skidbladnir, Tyrfing, Well of Urd |-align="center" !align="left" bgcolor="dodgerblue"|Worship |align="left"|Bl�t, Horgr, Human sacrifice, Seid, Sumbel, Temple at Uppsala, Thor's Hammer, V�lva, Yule |} Norse mythology, Viking mythology or Scandinavian mythology refer to the pre-Christianity religion, beliefs and legends of the North Germanic language people, including those who settled on Iceland, where the written sources for Norse mythology were assembled. It is the best-known version of the older common Germanic mythology, which also includes the closely related Anglo-Saxon mythology. Germanic mythology, in its turn, had evolved from an earlier Indo-European religion. Norse mythology was a collection of beliefs and stories shared by North Germanic tribes, not a revealed religion, in the sense that there was no claim to a divinely inspired scripture. The mythology was transmitted Oral tradition during most of the Viking Age, and our knowledge about it is mainly based on the Eddas and other medieval texts written down after Christianisation. In Scandinavian folklore, these beliefs held on the longest, and in rural areas some traditions have been maintained until today, recently being revived or reinvented as �satr� or Odinism. The mythology also remains as an inspiration in literature (see Norse mythological influences on later literature) as well as on stage productions and movies. ==Sources== Most of this mythology was passed down orally, and much of it has been lost. However, some of it was captured and recorded by Christian scholars, particularly in the ''Eddas'' and the ''Heimskringla'' by Snorri Sturluson, who rejected the idea that pre-Christian deities were devils. There is also the Danish ''Gesta Danorum'' by Saxo Grammaticus, where, however, the Norse gods are strongly euhemerized. The ''Younger Edda'' was written in the early 13th century. It may be thought of primarily as a handbook for aspiring poets, which lists and describes traditional tales which formed the basis of standardised poetic expressions, such as "kennings". We know the author of the Prose Edda to be Snorri Sturluson, the renowned Icelandic chieftain, poet and diplomat. The ''Elder Edda'' (also known as the ''Poetic Edda'') was written about 50 years later. It contains 29 long poems, of which 11 deal with the Germanic deities, the rest with legendary heroes like Sigurd the Volsung (the Sigurd of the German version ''Nibelungenlied''). Although scholars think it was written down later than the other Edda, we know it as the ''Elder Edda'' because of the antiquity of the contents. Besides these sources, there are surviving legends in Scandinavian folklore, and there are hundreds of place names in Scandinavia named after the gods. A few runic inscriptions, such as the R�k Runestone and the Kvinneby amulette, make references to the mythology. There are also several image stones that depict scenes from Norse mythology, such as Thor's fishing trip, scenes from the V�lsunga saga, Odin and Sleipnir, Odin being devoured by Fenrir, and Hyrrokkin riding to Baldr's funeral. In Denmark, a stone has been found which depicts Loki with curled dandy-like mustaches and lips that are sewn together. There are also smaller images, such as figurines depicting the gods Odin (with one eye), Thor (with his hammer) and Freyr. ==Cosmology== In Norse mythology, the earth was believed to be a flat disc. ''Asgard'', where the gods lived, was located at the centre of the disc, and could only be reached by walking across the rainbow (the Bifrost bridge). The Giants lived in an equivalent abode called Jotunheim (giant-home). A cold, dark underground abode called Niflheim was ruled by the goddess Hel (goddess). This was the eventual dwelling-place of most of the dead. Located somewhere in the south was the fiery realm of Muspell, home of the fire giants. Further otherworldly realms include �lfheim, home of the light-elves (lj�salfar), Svartalfheim, home of the dark-elves, and Nidavellir, the mines of the dwarves. In between Asgard and Niflheim was Midgard, the world of men (see also Middle Earth). ===Supernatural beings=== [[Image:Fenris_Ledbergsstenen_20041231.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Runestone that may depict the Fenris wolf]] There are three "clans" of deities, the Aesir, the Vanir, and the Iotnar (referred to as ''giants'' in this article). The distinction between Aesir and Vanir is relative, for the two are said to have made peace, exchanged hostages, intermarried and reigned together after a prolonged war, which the Aesir had finally won. Some gods belong in both camps. Some scholars have speculated that this tale symbolized the way the gods of invading Indo-European tribes supplanted older nature-deities of the aboriginal peoples, although it should be firmly noted that this is conjecture. Other authorities (compare Mircea Eliade and J.P. Mallory) consider the Aesir/Vanir division to be simply the Norse expression of a general Indo-European division of divinities, parallel to that of Olympians and Titans in Greek mythology, and in parts of the Mahabharata. The Aesir and the Vanir are generally enemies with the Iotnar (singular ''Iotunn'' or ''Jotuns''; Old English ''Eotenas'' or ''Entas''). They are comparable to the Titans and Gigantes of Greek mythology and generally translated as "giants", although "trolls" and "demons" have been suggested as suitable alternatives. However, the Aesir are descendants of Iotnar and both Aesir and Vanir intermarry with them. Some of the giants are mentioned by name in the ''Eddas'', and they seem to be representations of natural forces. There are two general types of giant: frost-giants and fire-giants. There were also elf and Norse dwarvess, whose role is shadowy but who are generally thought to side with the gods. In addition, there are many other supernatural beings: Fenris (or Fenrir) the gigantic wolf, and Jormungand the sea-serpent (or "worm") that is coiled around the world. These two monsters are described as the progeny of Loki, the trickster-god, and a giant. More benevolent creatures are Hugin and Munin (thought and memory), the two ravens who keep Odin, the chief god, apprised of what is happening on earth, and Ratatosk, the squirrel which scampers in the branches of the world ash, Yggdrasil, which is central to the conception of this world. Along with many other polytheistic religions, this mythology lacks the ''good-evil dualism'' of the Middle Eastern tradition. Thus, Loki is not primarily an adversary of the gods, though he is often portrayed in the stories as the nemesis to the protagonist Thor, and the giants are not so much fundamentally evil, as rude, boisterous, and uncivilized. The dualism that exists is not evil vs good, but order vs chaos. The gods represent order and structure whereas the giants and the monsters represent chaos and disorder. [[Image:Nornorna_spinner_�dets_tr�dar_vid_Yggdrasil.jpg|thumb|left|220px|The Norns spin the threads of fate at the foot of Yggdrasil, the tree of the world.]] ===V�lusp�: the origin and end of the world=== The origin and eventual fate of the world are described in ''V�lusp�'' ("The v�lva's prophecy" or "The sybil's prophecy"), one of the most striking poems in the ''Poetic Edda''. These haunting verses contain one of the most vivid creation accounts in all of religious history and a representation of the eventual destruction of the world that is unique in its attention to detail. In the ''V�lusp�'', Odin, the chief god of the Norse pantheon, has conjured up the spirit of a dead V�lva (Shaman or sybil) and commanded this spirit to reveal the past and the future. She is reluctant: "What do you ask of me? Why tempt me?"; but since she is already dead, she shows no fear of Odin, and continually taunts him: "Well, would you know more?" But Odin insists: if he is to fulfil his function as king of the gods, he must possess all knowledge. Once the sybil has revealed the secrets of past and future, she falls back into oblivion: "I sink now". ====The past==== In the beginning there was the world of ice Niflheim and the world of fire Muspelheim, and between them was the Ginnungagap, a "grinning (or yawning) gap" in which nothing lived. In Ginnungagap, the fire and the ice met and the fire of Muspelheim licked the ice shaping a primordial giant Ymir and a giant cow, Audhumbla whose milk fed Ymir. The cow licked the ice created the first god Buri, who was the father of Bor (god), the father of the first Aesir Odin and his brothers Vili and Ve. Ymir was a hermaphrodite and procreated alone the race of giants. Then, Bor (god)'s sons Odin, Vili and Ve slaughtered Ymir and from his body they created the world. The gods regulated the passage of the days and nights, as well as the seasons. The first human beings were Ask (ash (tree)) and Embla (elm), who were carved from wood and brought to life by the gods Odin, Honir/Vili and Lodur/Ve. Sol (goddess) is the goddess of the sun, a daughter of Mundilfari, and wife of Glen. Every day, she rides through the sky on her chariot, pulled by two horses named Alsvid and Arvak. This passage is known as Alfrodull, meaning "glory of elves", which in turn was a common kennings for the sun. Sol (goddess) is chased during the day by Skoll, a wolf that wants to devour her. solar eclipse signify that Skoll has almost caught up to her. It is fated that Skoll will eventually catch Sol (goddess) and eat her; however, she will be replaced by her daughter. Sol (goddess)'s brother, the moon, Mani (god), is chased by Hati, another wolf. The earth is protected from the full heat of the sun by Svalin, who stands between the earth and Sol (goddess). In Norse belief, the sun did not give light, which instead emanated from the manes of Alsvid and Arvak. The sybil describes the great ash tree Yggdrasil and the three norns (female symbols of inexorable fate; their names, Urðr (Urd), Verðandi (Verdandi) and Skuld, indicate the past, present and future) who spin the threads of fate beneath it. She describes the primeval war between Aesir and Vanir and the murder of Baldr. Then she turns her attention to the future. ====The future==== ''Main article: Ragnar�k.'' The Old Norse vision of the future is remarkably bleak. In the end, it was believed, the forces of evil and chaos will outnumber and overcome the divine and human guardians of good and order. Loki and his monstrous children will burst their bonds; the dead will sail from Niflheim to attack the living. Heimdall, the watchman of the gods, will summon the heavenly host with a blast on his horn. Then will ensue a final battle between good and evil (Ragnar�k), which the gods will lose, as is their fate. The gods, aware of this, will gather the finest warriors, the Einherjar, to fight on their side when the day comes, but in the end they will be powerless to prevent the world from descending into the chaos out of which it has once emerged; the gods and their world will be destroyed. Odin himself will be swallowed by Fenrisulfr the wolf. Still, there will be a few survivors, both human and divine, who will populate a new world, to start the cycle anew. Or so the sybil tells us; scholars are divided on the question whether this is a later addition to the myth that betrays Christian influence. ==Kings and Heroes== [[Image:Sigurd.jpg|thumbnail|350px|The Ramsund carving depicting passages from the V�lsunga saga]] The mythology does not only deal with gods and supernatural creatures, but also with heroes and kings. Many of them probably actually existed, and generations of Scandinavian scholars have tried to extract history from myth in the sagas. Sometimes the same hero resurfaces in several forms depending on which part of the Germanic world the epics survived such as V�lund/Weyland and Siegfried/Sigurd, and probably Beowulf (character)/B�dvar Bjarki. Other notable heroes are Hagbard, Starkad, Ragnar Lodbrok, Sigurd Ring, Ivar Vidfamne and Harald Hildetand. Notable are also the shieldmaidens who were "ordinary" women who had chosen the path of the warrior. ==Germanic worship== ''Main article: Bl�t'' [[Image:Gamla uppsala.jpg|thumb|350px|left|Gamla Uppsala, the centre of worship in Sweden until the temple was destroyed the late 11th century.]] ===Centres of faith=== The Germanic tribes rarely or never had temples in a modern sense. The Bl�t, the form of worship practiced by the ancient Germanic and Scandinavian people resembled that of the Celtic mythology and Balts : it could occur in Sacred groves. It could also take place at home and/or at a simple altar of piled stones known as a "horgr". However, there seems to have been a few more important centres, such as Kaupang, Lejre and Gamla Uppsala. Adam of Bremen claims that there was a temple in Uppsala (see Temple at Uppsala) with three wooden statues of Thor, Odin and Freyr. ===Priests=== While a kind of priesthood seems to have existed, it never took on the professional and semi-hereditary character of the Celtic Druidryical class. This was because the shamanistic tradition was maintained by women, the V�lvas. It is often said that the Germanic kingship evolved out of a priestly office. This priestly role of the king was in line with the general role of godi, who was the head of a kindred group of families (for this social structure, see norse clans), and who administered the sacrifices. [[Image:Midvinterblot.jpg|right|350px|thumb|Carl Larsson, "Midwinter Sacrifice", 1915: the sacrifice of King Domalde at Gamla Uppsala.]] ===Human sacrifice=== A unique eye-witness account of Germanic human sacrifice survives in Ibn Fadlan's account of a Rus' (people) ship burial, where a slave-girl had volunteered to accompany her lord to the next world. More indirect accounts are given by Tacitus, Saxo Grammaticus and Adam von Bremen. The ''Heimskringla'' tells of Swedish King Aun who sacrificed nine of his sons in an effort to prolong his life until his subjects stopped him from killing his last son Egil. According to Adam of Bremen the Swedish kings sacrificed male slaves every ninth year during the Yule sacrifices at the Temple at Uppsala. The Swedes had the right not only to elect kings but also to depose them, and both king Domalde and king Olof Tr�t�lja are said to have been sacrificed after years of famine. Odin was associated with death by hanging, and a possible practice of Odinic sacrifice by strangling has some archeological support in the existence of bodies perfectly preserved by the acid of the Jutland (later taken over by Denmark people) peat, into which they were cast after having been strangled. An example is Tollund Man. However, we possess no written accounts that explicitly interpret the cause of these stranglings, which could obviously have other explanations. ==Interactions with Christianity== [[Image:Ansgar.jpg|thumb|left|250px|An 1830 portrayal of Ansgar, a Christian missionary invited to Sweden by its king Bj�rn at Hauge in 829.]] An important problem in interpreting this mythology is that often the closest accounts that we have to "pre-contact" times were written by Christians. As a case in point, the ''Younger Edda'' and the ''Heimskringla'' were written by Snorri Sturluson in the 13th century, over two hundred years after Iceland became Christianized around 1000 AD, at a time of a rather intense anti-pagan political climate in Scandinavia. Virtually all of the saga literature came out of Iceland, a relatively small and remote island, and even in the climate of religious tolerance there, Sturluson was guided by an essentially Christian viewpoint. The ''Heimskringla'', copies of which are as widespread in today's Norway as the Bible, provides some interesting insights into this issue. Snorri Sturluson introduces Odin as a mortal warlord in Asia who acquires magical powers, settles in Sweden, and becomes a demi-god following his death. Having undercut Odin's divinity, Sturluson then provides the story of a pact of Swedish King Aun with Odin to prolong his life by sacrificing his sons. Later in the Heimskringla, Sturluson records in detail how converts to Christianity such as Saint Olaf Haroldsson brutally convert Scandinavians to Christianity. [[Image:Sejdmen.jpg|right|250px|thumb|During the christianisation of Norway, king Olaf Trygvasson had male v�lvas (sejdmen) tied and left on a skerry at ebb. A terrible and long wait for death.]] In Iceland, trying to avert civil war, the Icelandic parliament voted in Christianity, but tolerated heathenry in the privacy of one's home. Hence the more tolerant atmosphere that allowed the development of saga literature, which has been a vital window to help us better understand the heathen era. See also Germanic Christianity. Sweden, on the other hand, had a series of civil wars in the 11th century, which ended with the burning of the Temple at Uppsala. The conversion did not happen overnight as the new faith was imposed more or less by force. The clergy did their utmost to teach the populace that the Norse gods were demons, but their success was limited and the gods never became ''evil'' in the popular mind. Two centrally located and far from isolated settlements can illustrate how long the christianization took. Archaeological studies of graves at the Swedish island of Lov�n have shown that the Christianisation took 150-200 years, and this was a location close to the kings and bishops. Likewise in the bustling trading town of Bergen, two runic inscriptions have been found from the 13th century, where one says ''may Thor receive you, may Odin own you''. A second one is a galdra which says ''I carve curing runes, I carve salvaging runes, once against the Elf, twice against the trolls, thrice against the thurs''. The second one also mentions the dangerous Valkyrie Sk�gul. Otherwise there are few accounts from the 14th century to the 18th century, but the clergy, such as Olaus Magnus (1555) wrote about the difficulties of extinguishing the old beliefs. �rymskvi�a appears to have been an unusually resilient song, like the romantic Hagbard and Signy, and versions of both were recorded in the 17th century and as late as the 19th century. In the 19th and early 20th century Swedish folklorists documented what commoners believed, and what surfaced were many surviving traditions of the gods of Norse mythology. However, the traditions were by then far from the cohesive system of Snorri's accounts. Most gods had been forgotten and only the hunting Odin and the giant-slaying Thor figure in numerous legends. Freya is mentioned a few times and Baldr only survives in legends about place names. Other elements of Norse mythology survived without being perceived as such, especially concerning supernatural beings in Scandinavian folklore. Moreover, the Norse belief in destiny has been very firm until modern times. Since the Christian hell resembled the abode of the dead in Norse mythology one of the names was borrowed from the old faith, ''Helvite'' i.e. ''Hel (goddess)'s punishement''. Some elements of the Yule traditions were preserved, such as the Swedish tradition of slaughtering the pig at Christmas (see Christmas ham), which originally was part of the sacrifice to Frey. ==Modern influences== {| style="float: right; margin: 10px;" ! style="text-align: left;" | Day ! style="text-align: left;" | Origin |- |- | Monday || Moon's day |- | Tuesday || Tyr's (Tiw's) day |- | Wednesday || Odin's (Woden's) day |- | Thursday || Thor's day |- | Friday || Frigg's or Freya's day |- | Sunday || Sun's day |} The Germanic gods have left traces in modern vocabulary. An example of this is some of the names of the days of the week: modelled after the names of the days of the week in Latin (named after ''Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn''), the names for Tuesday through to Friday were replaced with Germanic equivalents of the Roman gods. In English, Saturn was not replaced, while Saturday is named after the sabbath in German, and is called "washing day" in Scandinavia. Norse mythology also influenced Richard Wagner's use of literary themes from it to compose the four operas that comprise ''Der Ring des Nibelungen'' (''The Ring of the Nibelung''). In the Marvel Universe, the Norse Pantheon and related elements play a prominent part, especially Thor (Marvel Comics) who has been one of the longest running superheroes for the company. The Norse Pantheon heroes are also the main characters of Japanese anime Matantei Loki Ragnarok. More recent have been attempts in both Europe and the United States to revive the old paganism religion under the name �satr� or Heathenry. In Iceland �satr� was recognized by the state as an official religion in 1973, which legalized its marriage, child-naming and other ceremonies. It is also an official and legal religion in Denmark and Norway, though it is still fairly new. The Creatures series of computer games also borrows several names from Norse mythology. The most prominent are the three kinds of creatures you can raise, the Norn (Creatures), Grendel (Creatures) and Ettin (Creatures). ===Fantasy Fiction Influence=== Tales of great warriors and deadly mages gave rise to the fantasy fiction genre in the 20th century. Robert E. Howard borrowed extensively from Norse mythology in his many outstanding fantasy works, his best known creation being Conan the Barbarian, a fictional Cimmerian mercenary and the hero of numerous short stories and a novel. Later on others followed in his footsteps like J. R. R. Tolkien in his outstanding fantasy works ''The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion''. After the Howard and Tolkien work was published, other authors were bound to follow. Many of the most famous authors like Robert Jordan, Terry Brooks, Raymond Feist, David Eddings, Tad Williams and others fantasy fiction authors borrow heavily from the Norse mythology. This helped the fantasy develop as a separate genre. And on the other hand, the birth of fantasy gave breath to role playing and computer games. Some RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons or Dragonlance are based on authors work (including Howard and Tolkien) and many mythologies (including the Norse mythology). ==See also== Spelling of names in Norse mythology often varies depending on the nationality of the source material. In the articles presented here, several common forms of the names will be presented. For more information see Old Norse orthography. *R�k Stone *Temple at Uppsala *Tollund Man *alliterative verse ---- ==External links== * [http://www.norse-myths.com Norse-Myths.com - Norse Mythology] Dedicated to Norse mythology. Detailed re-tellings of the old Norse sagas. * [http://www.northvegr.org/lore/main.php A collection of most of the standard texts] in (generally) comprehensible English translation * [http://www.goetter-portal.de Norse dieties and more] (germ.) * [http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/index.htm More source materials] * [http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse Timeless Myths - Norse Mythology] Information and tales from Norse and Germanic literatures * [http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/skindex/skindex.html J�rmungrund: Sk�lda- & v�snatal Norrœns Miðaldkveðskapar [Index of Old Norse/Icelandic Skaldic Poetry]] (In Icelandic.) * Project Runeberg, a Nordic equivalent to Project Gutenberg * [http://www.cybersamurai.net/Mythology/NorseMyth.htm CyberSamurai Encyclopedia - an encyclopedia about norse gods, goddesses, heroes and mythological creatures] ==Bibliography (including some external links)== * Primary Sources ** ''Edda'', Snorri Sturluson ** ''Elder Edda'', Saemund (also known as the ''Codex Regius'') * Modern retellings (''often inventive'') ** Armstrong, Fredrick and Puls, Dave (2004). [http://www.animatusstudio.com/dvd/icmain.html ''It Came From Animatus'']. Rochester, N.Y.: Animatus Studio. DVD UPC: 825346-49479-1. Includes [http://www.animatusstudio.com/derf/index.html The Derf The Viking Trilogy], a cartoon series featuring the Norse gods. ** Colum, Padraic (1920). ''The Children of Odin: A Book of Northern Myths'', illustrated by Willy Pog�ny. New York, Macmillan. Reprinted 2004 by Aladdin, ISBN 0689868855. *** [http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/ice/coo/index.htm Sacred Texts: The Children of Odin]. (Illustrated.) *** [http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=colum&book=odin&story=_contents Baldwin Project: The Children of Odin]. (Partial.) ** Crossley-Holland, Kevin (1981). ''The Norse Myths''. New York: Pantheon Books. ISBN 0394748468. Also released as ''The Penguin Book of Norse Myths: Gods of the Vikings''. Harmondsworth: Penguin. ISBN 0140258698. ** Guerber, H. A. (1909). ''Myths of the Norsemen: From the Eddas and Sagas''. London: George G. Harrap. Reprinted 1992, Mineola, N.Y.: Dover. ISBN 0486273482. (''The scholarly veneer is deceptive. Material from primary sources, scholarly speculation, and secondary invention is indistinguishably mixed.'') ** Keary, A & E (1909), ''The Heroes of Asgard''. New York: Macmillan Company. Reprinted 1982 by Smithmark Pub. ISBN 0831744758. Reprinted 1979 by Pan Macmillan ISBN 0333078020. *** [http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=keary&book=asgard&story=_contents Baldwin Project: The Heroes of Asgard] ** Mable, Hanilton Wright (1901). ''Norse Stories Retold from the Eddas''. Mead and Company. Reprinted 1999, New York: Hippocrene Books. ISBN 0781807700. *** [http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=mabie&book=norse&story=_contents Baldwin Project: Norse Stories Retold from the Eddas] ** Mackenzie, Donald A. (1912). ''Teutonic Myth and Legend''. New York: W. H. Wise & Co. 1934. Reprinted 2003 by University Press of the Pacific. ISBN 1410207404. *** [http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/tml/index.htm Sacred Texts: Teutonic Myth and Legend]. ** Munch, Peter Andreas (1927). ''Norse Mythology: Legends of Gods and Heroes'', Scandinavian Classics. Trans. Sigurd Bernhard Hustvedt (1963). New York: American-Scandinavian Foundation. ISBN 0404045383. * General secondary works ** Branston, Brian (1980). ''Gods of the North''. London: Thames and Hudson. (Revised from an earlier hardback edition of 1955). ISBN 0500271771. ** H. R. Ellis Davidson (1964). ''Gods and Myths of Northern Europe''. Baltimore: Penguin. New edition 1990 by Penguin Books. ISBN 0140136274. (Several rune stones) ** —————— (1969). ''Scandinavian Mythology''. London and New York: Hamlyn. ISBN 0872260410. Reissued 1996 as ''Viking and Norse Mythology''. New York: Barnes and Noble. ** Dum�zil, Georges (1973). ''Gods of the Ancient Northmen''. Ed. & trans. Einar Haugen. Berkeley: University of California Press. ISBN 0520035070. ** Grimm, Jacob (1888). ''Teutonic Mythology'', 4 vols. Trans. S. Stallybras. London. Reprinted 2003 by Kessinger. ISBN 0766177424, ISBN 0766177432, ISBN 0766177440, ISBN 0766177459. Reprinted 2004 Dover Publications. ISBN 0486436152 (4 vols.), ISBN 0486435466, ISBN 0486435474, ISBN 0486435482, ISBN 0486435490. *** [http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/index.php Northvegr: Grimm's Teutonic Mythology] ** Lindow, John (1988). ''Scandinavian Mythology: An Annotated Bibliography'', Garland Folklore Bibliographies, 13. New York: Garland. ISBN 0824091736. ** —————— (2001). ''Norse Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs''. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195153820. (A dictionary of Norse mythology.) ** Orchard, Andy (1997). ''Cassell's Dictionary of Norse Myth and Legend''. London: Cassell. ISBN 0304363855. ** Page, R. I. (1990). ''Norse Myths (The Legendary Past)''. London: British Museum; and Austin: University of Texas Press. ISBN 0292755465. ** Rydberg, Viktor (1889). ''Teutonic Mythology'', trans. Rasmus B. Anderson. London: Swan Sonnenschein & Co. Reprinted 2001, Elibron Classics. ISBN 1402193912. Reprinted 2004, Kessinger Publishing Company. ISBN 0766188914. (Rydberg's theories are generally not accepted.) *** [http://www.northvegr.org/lore/rydberg/index.php Northvegr: Rydberg's Teutonic Mythology] (Displayed by pages.) *** [http://www.boudicca.de/teut.htm Boudicca's Bard: ''Teutonic Mythology''] (Entire work on a single page.) ** Simek, Rudolf (1993). ''Dictionary of Northern Mythology''. Trans. Angela Hall. Cambridge: D. S. Brewer. ISBN 0859913694. New edition 2000, ISBN 0859915131. ** Simrock, Karl Joseph (1853–1855) ''Handbuch der deutschen Mythologie''. ** Turville-Petre, E. O. Gabriel. (1964). ''Myth and Religion of the North: The Religion of Ancient Scandinavia''. London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson. Reprinted 1975, Westport, Conn.: Greenwood Press. ISBN 0837174201. ** Vries, Jan de. ''Altgermanische Religionsgeschichte'', 2 vols., 2nd. ed., Grundriss der germanischen Philogie, 12–13. Berlin: W. de Gruyter. (Generally considered the most authoritative current standard reference.) fo:�satr�gv la:Religio Germanica lv:Skandināvu mitoloģija ms:Mitos Norse Norse mythology �satr�

Norse mythology

==Archive== *Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Archived_nominations#Norse_mythology *Talk:Norse mythology/Archive 1 == Moved from article == This may reflect a pragmatic and empirical approach to life that contemporaries might label as "existentialist" or "Darwinian." In his work "The Religious Attitudes of the Indo-Europeans," Hans Gunther links it to the "naturalistic" views of Thomas Jefferson and other scholars of the Enlightenment. An important insight into the laconic and pragmatic character of Norse mythology often neglected in encyclopedic works is that the Nordic peoples evolved in very harsh frost-zone environments of this planet, much like the Eskimos, and were very dependent on developing forms of technology to clothe themselves and survive cruel winters and fish in violent oceans in nasty weather. For fishermen (a relatively high proportion of the Scandinavian population) the outlook was bleak; they stood a much greater chance of dying at sea than living to a ripe old age. (This is reflected in the lack of middle-aged and elderly men buried in old cemeteries of Norwegian fishing villages relative to old women or young children of both sexes who died from disease). The Viking ship, referred to as "a poem carved in wood," was "high tech" for its era, as was Viking navigation. The Viking sword reflected advanced metallurgical skills. The Germanic peoples developed their own "runic" alphabet called the "futhark." Relative to other societies of the time, the Norsemen were an innovative "techno" people, and their attitude towards religion reflected a "technological" approach to life. To this day, Norwegians, Icelanders, and other Scandinavians (to include the Finns, who are actually more "Finno-Ugric" than "Nordic") have one of the highest literacy rates and book, magazine, and newspaper consumption rates per capita compared to other peoples on the planet. Scandinavia is also ahead of most other areas of the world in terms of the number of high tech companies per capita. This may have something to do with the sub-arctic Norse winters; when it's dark and freezing for eighteen hours a day, one hasn't much to do besides read, tinker and philosophize. When one reads through the Heimskringla and other histories of the Viking era and its aftermath, and counts up who commits what atrocities, one does not necessarily get an impression of Christian moral superiority. The Vikings go from raiding and harrying each other as pagans in "intramural" tribal contests to William the Conqueror's utterly brutal conquest and consolidation of Britain as a "Christian." We see the Crusades where Christianized Germanic peoples massacre Islamic peoples in the name of Jesus who they previously peacefully traded with as heathens. "Christian" government also seems to be less decentralized and more intolerant, idelogically driven, and bureaucratic than in pagan times. In some instances we go from occasional "heathen" human sacrifices to massive "Christian" witch hunts and witch burnings. Is this progress? With the advent of Christianity we do not necessarily get rid of aggression, social injustice, and immorality, we simply rearrange and skew the style, motives, subtlety, and ideological nature of these things. This is analogous to how Christian theology changed during the Crusades or during the America's horrific Civil War, when Northerners grimly sang about the "terrible swift sword (of the Lord)" while watching seemingly endless streams of loved ones come home in coffins or permanently maimed, compared to the brand of Christianity practiced in more normal times. :I found all of the above dubious/POV, strangely/poorly written, and/or exteraneous. Have a look to see if you think it can be rewritten and merged into this article, or articles elsewhere. :User:Sam Spade http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit§ion=new Spade 02:14, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC) If you think there is a lot of POV and extraneous comment in the above, well, yes, I tend to agree with you, but I also see a lot still remaining. Take just a statement like "Few other mythic systems can have as bleak a vision of the future as the ancient Scandinavian". This is a very broad statement which does not take into account the fact that in the dark ages most of christianity offered an extremely bleak view of the future for most of the faithful, and for all of the unfaithful (of which tere were many), to name but one famous mythic system. And all of the article seems to consider Norse mythology as stable through the centuries, when in fact there is as stark contrast between the early, dark stories and something that came long after like Trymskvida, which is full of pranks and merriment, and reflects the lighter world view of the last centuries of pagan belief in Scandinavia. User:AlainV 03:47, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC) :Of course, and I did not mean to suggest that the article as it now stands is perfect, nor that the material I removed is all bad. I encourage you to salvage anything you find important, and to make as many additions and edits as you feel are needed to explain things with a bit more perspective. I noticed a strong slant towards finding a "uniqueness" about norse mythology and culture, which may not be entirely without merit, but simply was not justified by the material provided. That said, overall, do you like the new format? User:Sam Spade http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit§ion=new Spade 18:00, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC) Yes, and I have a good idea of what you refer to by a concern (if not an obsession) with finding "uniqueness", since I encountered it several times during my vacation travels through Sweden, and before and after these summer excursions, in my readings. User:AlainV 04:30, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC) == advice == There is some good advice in Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Archived_nominations#Norse_mythology on how the page might be improved. User:Sam Spade http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit§ion=new Spade 05:06, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC) == Merge Anglo-Saxon mythology ? == I am thinking of merging Anglo-Saxon mythology into this article, and Anglo-Saxon gods into Norse gods, etc... Thoughts? User:Sam Spade http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit§ion=new Spade 16:25, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC) :I don't think it is correct to merge Norse mythology with Anglo-Saxon mythology. The best solution would be to have an article named "Germanic mythology" with subsections, such as "Norse mythology", "Anglo-Saxon mythology", "Gothic mythology", "Saxon mythology", "Vandalic mythology", etc. However, only "Norse mythology" is well-known. :You cannot say that Norse mythology included Anglo-Saxon mythology. They were related but not identical, and Norse mythology did not include Anglo-Saxon mythology. One difference that shows this is that Frigg and Freya are two goddesses in Norse mythology. In Anglo-Saxon and in other Germanic mythologies, they were one and the same.--User:Wiglaf 17:23, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC) ::Good point, thanks for your input, and good recent edits BTW. User:Sam Spade http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit§ion=new Spade 17:56, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC) :::Although it seems that could likely be a mistake by Snorri et al, trying to fit different religious theories into a complete system... =S Thanks, you have been doing a good job as well.--User:Wiglaf 18:51, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC) == Greenland == Sorry about that, I knew Iceland had been a bastion of old norse culture, and assumed Greenland to have been similar. User:Sam Spade http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit§ion=new Spade 19:15, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC) :The latest theory of why the Greenland settlement died out is that the Greenlanders, were too "good christians". The clergy actively forbade the greenlanders of following pagan ways, such as learning "pagan" hunting techniques from the Inuits. Since the Greenlanders tried very consciously to live like good Christian farmers, the deteriorating climate led to malnutrition, which lead to extremely high mortality among young women (the childbearing part of the population).--User:Wiglaf 19:44, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC) == The nine worlds == First of all, I have to say: \"Hail warriors!\" This is the first time after some months that i took a look at the norse mythology page. I remember that there were described the nine worlds there. I wonder why you guys removed it. I also remembered that there were described ten worlds in all. YGGDRASIL has three levels + the well etc.: Hvergelmir, M�misbrunnr, Urdarbrunnr HIGHER LEVEL: Alfheim, Asgard, Vanaheim MIDDLE LEVEL: Jotunheim, Midgard, ''Nidavellir,'' Svartalfheim LOWER LEVEL: Helgardh, ''Muspelheim,'' Niflheim Those in ''italics'' are the worlds that usualy get lost. The problem is that I don't know which nine of them are the right ones, because in different sources there are different combinations of them. For instance:HELHEIM, NIFLHEIM, JOTUNHEIM, NIDAVELLIR, SVARTALFHEIM, MIDGARD, ALFHEIM, VANAHEIM, ASGARD or Asgard, Ljossalfheim, Midgard, Svartalfheim, Hel, J�tunheim, Muspelheim, Vanaheim, Nifelheim Here in this encyclopedia I found out that Hel is a part of Niflheim and now I'm totally confused about everything... Or it all depends on different periods or places in the norse history? --User:Krofek 13:22, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC) Well, we do have Norse cosmology, but it could use some improvement, and I agree it could be linked more prominently. User:Dbachmann 08:50, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC) :The "nine worlds" or nine "''heimar''" 'homes' are only mentioned in extant texts in a single line in the second stanza of the ''V�lusp�''. ''All'' attempts to identify them exactly are guesswork. But secondary sources often don't indicate this is guesswork. User:Jallan 17:02, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC) :What you are talking about here is actually the hebrew "tree of life" which you can see under the article about kabbalah. This has nothing to do with Norse Mythology, but I have seen it linked to norse mythology in new age books. Norse mythology is NOT celtic, not anglo-saxon mythology, and "the nine worlds" should not be mentioned at all in the article in my opinion. Try to keep it scholarly. --User:SWA 01:21, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==�satr�== Should we merge this with �satr�? User:Kwertii 05:41, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC) :Even the name "�satr�" is 19th century. �satr� builds upon Norse mythology but you can't bundle them up together. There should be links of course... --User:Wetman 08:23, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC) ::while you're at it, can someone fix the horrible pronunciation hints on �satr�? User:Dbachmann 08:39, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC) ---- I wonder whether "halm" should be renamed to straw, as that's what swedish "halm" usually refers to.. =S == Norse Mythology == The Norse mythology article must certainly not be merged with Anglo-Saxon Mythology. It would be preferrable to follow the suggestion above: to create a file on Germanic mythology and then have both under that heading. One mention of the Norse mythology file, it would be more desirable to have smaller sections that great big large ones. Couldn't Creation of the World and Ragnarok be one single page or even two shorter pages? Just a minor suggestion. :There is already such a page:Germanic mythology. You're welcome to work on it.--User:Wiglaf 14:51, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC) == Table == I have adapted the nice table at Celtic mythology to this article. I am not sure of the colours, though.--User:Wiglaf 09:21, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC) :I removed it. It was apparently not appreciated.--User:Wiglaf 11:15, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::Hey, Wiglaf, one person complained, and that was about the quarrel with the TOC, not the table itself! I think it's very useful. I went to edit the article, thinking to move the table, but realized I don't know what in the code it is that places the table where it is, I'm too ignorant to mess with it. Try to put it back, please! Why not put it on the right, and put the runestone image somewhere further down? Btw, the article could do with a few more images, surely. (I'm not knowledgeable enough about this to find appropriate ones, but it can't be that hard for someone who is, I should think.)--User:Bishonen_User_talk:Bishonen">User:Bishonen|User:Bishonen User_talk:Bishonen 12:35, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC) :::OK, Bishonen, here it is. Go ahead and make your edits :-)--User:Wiglaf 12:55, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::::sorry about my table complaint, Wiglaf. I have probably not given it enough thought to hold a definite opinion. I just voiced my spontaneous impression that it is not very useful, but I will think about it again, and I will certainly not dwell on the point. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 08:41, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) :::::Well, you're right about the main problem with the table, i.e. that many of the links go to non-substantial articles. Hopefully, they will be more accessible with the table and fleshed out in time. Another solution could be to remove those links that don't go to real articles.--User:Wiglaf 08:46, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) yes -- I guess a have grow a bit allergic to WP "listmania", but I think this particular list does make some sense in this particular article. Maybe more in the sense of an index though, i.e. the table does not necessarily need to be right at the top. But it can of course be useful to give an overview of characters. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 11:13, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) ==Cultural perspective== I've been bold with the cultural perspective paragraph above the subsections, although I don't like to be when it involves deleting contributions. I think the graph only tenuouosly connected with the subject, though, as well as misplaced (compare my argument on WP:FAC today). I've included the protest about Tollund man (briefly) in the appropriate place, which is the previouos section. Here is the deleted paragraph: ''Another problem is the lack of quantitative data on the degree of certain behaviors relative to other societies. The Norsemen had slaves, but so did everyone else; what is significant is that they had a large free farmer or "bonder" class which participated in parliamentary "things", later reflected in the large English yeoman class of the Middle Ages, and never had a large peasantry, slave class, or pyramidal social structure as did societies further to the south. This was a very "middle class" society. Most men in Germanic and Norse society were free men and were expected to carry a weapon such as a sword or spear as a mark of their manliness (recorded by the Roman writer Tacitus in his work "The Agricola and the Germania.") Their indulgences in human sacrifice were generally more sporadic and less characterized by institutionalized "superstition" relative to other societies of their day. The thought patterns of their leaders were very secular. Getting back to the Tollund man, we have no written accounts that explicitly interpret the cause of the hanging. It could have been no more "Odinic" (or more accurately, related to "Tyr," as explained later) than the hanging of outlaw horse thieves and bank robbers in the old American West. Truth be told, we just do not know what the real motivation was, and the scholars who associate Tollund man with "Odinic sacrifice" simply because Odin was associated with death by hanging (among dozens of other associations) may be telling us more about their biases than about the real Tollund man.''
--User:Bishonen_User_talk:Bishonen">User:Bishonen|User:Bishonen User_talk:Bishonen 14:19, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC) :Good move. I have been bothered by this part for some while. The info is not exactly incorrect, but I share your objections.--User:Wiglaf 14:46, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC) ==P.S.== Wiglaf, with the slowness of the servers and you and me editing at the same time, I think we may have been tripping each other up. For my part I haven't gotten any edit conflicts, but look at the History! I'll just reinsert the "Cultural perspective" heading--did you mean to remove it?--and then I'm out, you go ahead and edit.--User:Bishonen_User_talk:Bishonen">User:Bishonen|User:Bishonen User_talk:Bishonen 14:33, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC) :No go ahead! I'll try to look for some nice pictures to add later, and I have a bunch of exams to correct anyway. I removed the "cultural perspective" heading too fast. I see now that there were subsections under it. Sorry.--User:Wiglaf 14:41, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::What a coincidence, I have exams to grade, too. ;-( I'll be back in a couple of hour and fiddle around a little, unless you let me know that that's what you're planning too. In any case, please don't go thinking I know anything about this stuff. Or I know what all Swedes learn in school, which leaves me with a bit of a hankering to insert something sarcastic about G�tiska f�rbundet and ''Fritiofs Saga'' under "Cultural perspective" :-). I'll resist it, though, as those guys were more into heroes and, well, uh, manliness, than gods, if I remember it right, and in any case somebody with more knowledge ought to write actual content here. (A scruple which doesn't necessarily bother all contributors, I realize.) Clearly some scholars and specialists have been involved in the article, are you one of them? I hope they haven't all taken off. It'll take somebody who's done research in the area to divide the bibliography (which is in some ways very impressive) in the way I requested on WP:FAC, probably.--User:Bishonen_User_talk:Bishonen">User:Bishonen|User:Bishonen User_talk:Bishonen 15:44, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC) :::I may return after half past nine tonight, but otherwise I won't do anything more today. I have actually written very little in this article, and my additions have mostly consisted of fiddling with the text. I also hope that some real specialists are around to do some work. Good luck with correcting the exams! :-)--User:Wiglaf 15:58, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC) :::Good editing!--User:Wiglaf 08:34, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) ==various concerns== *I agree that oral tradition is essential, and is rightly mentioned in the article. But "runes"? I don't want just to start deleting stuff, and I don't consider myself an expert, but what amount of Norse mythology has been preserved in runes? there's Eggjum stone (~200 characters), but afaik, that's about it. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 11:18, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) :Very little, I guess. The main contributions from rune stones are images from the legends, such as Thor fishing the Midgard serpent and the saga of the V�lsungs.--User:Wiglaf 11:41, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::true, we should mention the depictions. They are certainly much more conclusive. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann :::Absolutely. I wish we had User:OlofE here. He knows more about rune stones than I do. I'll try to contact him and ask if he has time to contribute with more specific info.--User:Wiglaf 12:08, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) *"sometimes even referring to it as the work of the Devil." I think this is a cliche. The people who actually bother to write down the pagan legends usually treat them with respect. Snorri certainly did, and his own opinion is clearly set apart from the story itself. If we do say the legends were distorted by Christian scribes, we should give examples. The Edda appears untouched. So does Beowulf. Chrisian propaganda does appear in Saints' vitae who supposedly converted pagans, but I cannot think of any text that seems to have been rewritten with a Christian agenda. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 12:01, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) :I guess the men wrote down the stories did so to preserve them and so had a more positive attitude towards the traditions. IIRC, common priests did demonize the gods in order to compete with the beliefs and practices that people had in secret. ::sure, I don't dispute this. But here, if I understand correctly, the point is to evaluate the reliability of the sources, i.e. Edda etc. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann :::Yes, my mistake. That part should probably be removed.--User:Wiglaf 12:20, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) *right at the beginning of the "Germanic worship" section: ''"Icelandic scholar Magnus Magnusson, author of "Viking: Hammer of the North," suggests that there was a stoic, pragmatic, rationalistic side to the Nordic character"'' — how controversial is this? To talk about "the Nordic character" already sounds fishy to me, and to attribute it such qualities (as opposed to what? myths of barbarians? non-Germans? non-'Aryans'? I must say "Viking:Hammer of the North" does not sound like a very confidence-instilling title, and the whole idea has a sort of 19th century reek to it (I mean, not to say that Scandinavians had common sense. I suppose they had as much as anybody. But the underlying, unstated assumptions that seem to lurk behind the statement bother me). It seems to say that other "primitives", as opposed to the noble vikings, are usually utterly naive vis-a-vis their mythologies. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 12:10, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) :I think the point is to show that the Scandinavians were not less sceptic than the ancient greeks. I think that part should be toned downed or greatly reduced, because you're probably not the only one who reacts like that.--User:Wiglaf 12:20, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) ==sources== concerning "Sources of information": I think this section should be at the beginning, not at the end. We need to state, that basically we are summarizing the Eddas here. We also need to make clear in what way the scope of this article is different from the scope of the Edda article, what we know from the Gesta Danorum and the Heimskringla, and what other sources there are (runestones). We should also become clear about whether human sacrifice is within the scope of the mythology: we'll end up duplicating the same information here, on human sacrifice, on Tyr, on Goths and on Germanic mythology. It's difficult to draw a line, of course, but common Germanic stuff should probably no appear here. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 17:07, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) ==weekdays== I fiddled with the weekdays section, but I am not happy yet. Before I did, there was the implication that the names were given independently of Latin, while they are of course translations. Secondly, English is not Norse, so the English names are stricly speaking irrelevant here (but they are of course more or less equivalent to the Scandinavian names, excepting Saturday). Maybe it should be phrased more clearly, or simply reduced to the four names that ''are'' named after Germanic gods. Other traces in the language should be added (see Tyr). User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 17:55, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) ==Image placement== I appreciate the nice images, but I'm starting to think that the article has as many as there's room for now (unless we get a lot more text). Readers will complain if the images victimize the text, which can be a problem on low resolution. Bear in mind that image width takes up a fixed number of pixels while the text does not, so the text gets only the left-overs, if any. The images have just been moved around quite a bit now, which is fine, they should be experimented with. Only I'm not sure about having them staggered left-right, at least the ones that are close together. I'm sure it looked good on the screen of the editor who placed them there, but the lower resolution you have, the more you're going to get a narrow midg�rdsorm of a text column meandering between left-right images, which can be a stressful reading experience. It's a bit like that on my 1024x768 screen right now, and some readers are on 600x400 (which must mean that two 300-pixel images placed left and right will exactly meet in the middle). Think about it, but, again, please do not hesitate to experiment--images are easy to move and move back.--User:Bishonen_User_talk:Bishonen">User:Bishonen|User:Bishonen User_talk:Bishonen 23:57, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) =="Contemporary" images== There are a few - very few - images on rune stones, with pre-christian mythological themes, only about 5% of the stones are pre-christian to begin with. A portrait or two usually interpreted as Thor (one on a rune block near Vallentuna), Thor's fishing (Ledberg stone) and the V�lsunga saga (Ramsund). There's also a few on image stones from Gotland; V�lund in the smithy, Odin on Sleipner, some ships interpreted as Nagelfar. Of these, I have only some really bad pictures of the Ledberg stone (which is in pretty bad shape and hard to photograph). The Swedish 'pedia has a picture of Ramsund, and I know I've seen an image stone in an article either on en: or sv: but I can't find it now. (Odin on Sleiper, taken from an image stone in Bunge, was also the motive of a Swedish stamp (5 �re, circa 1965 I believe - it's reddish brown in color)) Those sources are all Swedish material - I can't recall any images outside Sweden but there must be a few. (The Oseberg tapestries for instance, don't they have any religios imagery? What about the wood carvings in Norwegian churches, nothing there?). Finally, there might be interesting rock carvings as well, but I can't think of anything - scenes of fishing, certainly, but I don't think they've been plausibly linked to norse myth (one such image is in the rock carving article). Keep up the good work folks, I'll see if I can find/make an acceptable image of the Ledberg stone. // User:OlofE 10:25, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC) (oh and I agree that the images should not dwarf the text - personally I consider a contemporary image superior to 19th century romantic renderings but that's personal taste I guess) :Well, I also prefer contemporary images, but ''Romantic'' ones are easier to find, and I am not sure about the copyright on photographs of contemporary images.--User:Wiglaf 10:53, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::True, of course - any image is better than no image. Old depictions or drawings of monuments however ''should'' be possible to find, and they're usually much clearer than photographs. Photographs are free only in a pretty narrow time-span (up to 1925 or whatever) so it's rarely worth the effort looking for them imo. I'll have a look around and see if I can find something. // User:OlofE 15:08, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC) :::Thanks :-)--User:Wiglaf 15:21, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC) A small update; I've located a surprisingly large number of depictions of elements of the V�lsunga saga, I didn't realize there were so many of them. The Ramsund carving is both representative and of sufficient quality to fill that slot, but I've been on the lookout for better pictures of it for a long time. Depictions of truly religious entities however, remain scarce. There are a number (about half a dozen) of depictions of Thor's fishing trip, but none of them better than the Ledberg stone, really. I'll try to make a visit there during new year's (with my new camera, heehee). The image stones of Gotland is the only other major contender, apart from some items I believe are in Norwegian museums. The Norwegian items I'll have a look into at a later time, it's not something I can easily get ahold of. There are also "scary faces" on some older runestones, but I don't believe they're appropriate for an article on religion. // User:OlofE 12:31, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC) :*slaps forehead* There's no fishing trip on the Ledberg stone - the scene there is Fenris foot-biting, I dunno why I slipped that way. Anyway, I did go out and snap a shot or two this weekend (like 30 actually but nevermind). :Image:Fenris_Ledbergsstenen_20041231.jpg is Fenris, :sv:Bild:Ledbergsstenen_20041231.jpg is a composite of all three scribed sides. I'll have a fishing-trip-picture for you eventually, I promise... // User:OlofE 11:01, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::Very nice pictures! Well done :).--User:Wiglaf 12:20, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC) :::Come to think of it, this stone might also be of interest for rune articles - the final words of the inscription (on the back side, starting under the wolf and all the way down) is a magical incantation whose meaning is lost today - it consists of the sequence ''�mk:iii:sss:ttt:iii:l(l)l'', read as "''�istill:mistill:kistill''" (thistle, mistletoe, casket). The cross shape on the side (centre of composite image) suggests christian influence, the imagery pre-christian. The wording lacks specifically religious phrases ("Bisi placed this stone in memory of �orgautr (...) his father. (Bisi) and Gunna, both (raised the stone) ''�istill:mistill:kistill''"). The stone is "�g 181" in Swedish archives, it was found in the walls of the previous church on the site and taken out when the new church was built. // User:OlofE 14:48, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC) :::The Altuna runestone, ''U 1161'', image: :Image:Altuna_U1161_20050205.jpg. I have images of the rest of the inscription as well but it's not very interesting apart from the fishing image. This carving has a lot more connection to the myth (than the fenris picture, which could allow for different interpretations - this one leaves no doubt whatsoever): In the picture, you see Tor in the fishing boat. He has baited with the head of an ox, and the Midgard snake has taken the bait. The fight has caused Tor's feet to go straight through the hull of the boat, and he's holding his hammer high, probably he is just getting ready to strike the snake - Tor's fishing companion, Hymer, who isn't in the picture, will soon cut the line and end the fishing. This is to my knowledge one of the clearest depictions of norse gods in any runestones. Image stones from Gotland is the source we should look inte next. I will create an article about the stone on the Swedish WP, for reference (since we don't create individual articles of all runestones on en:). It will be located here, . // User:OlofE 11:42, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC) ::::I made an edited version of the fishing trip image, at :sv:Image:Altuna_U1161_20050205c.jpg, since the contrast was a bit tricky (lousy photo weather and poorly maintained stone). Any suggestions welcome. The raw image is identical to the one I uploaded previously. // User:OlofE 23:19, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC) ===...and mentions in rune text and placenames ... and stuff=== I forgot about mentions in runic text; here goes... The most visible deity in runic text is Tyr. The name itself, and the rune, was used for a long time as an incantation of power. Many old inscriptions consist only of a tyr (T) rune, often repeated or multiplied (a stem with 7 bars on each side for instance). This is especially common in old, short inscriptions on weapons. Beyond that... I have to rummage books for a bit, I can't recall a single mention of other gods. There's placenames, though - Odin, Tor, Frey (Fr�), Tyr and Brage all have placenames still extant in Sweden and Denmark (I'm less sure of Norway, Britain, Iceland - there's Torshavn on F�r�ya at least... maybe some places in Germany?). Associated with this is the phenomenon of the ''-vi'' and ''-tuna'' placenames of Sweden (plus the ''-lunda'' and ''-�ker'' names, less mysterious and less common). Auxiliary connection to those placenames are indications of popular activities in connection with cult, particularly intriguing is the horse racing and horse fighting as evidenced in the ''-skede'' names (''Sk�vde'' and ''Enskede'' for instance, after ''skei�''). The ''skei�'' still shows through in the celebration of Lucia and "Staffan stalledr�ng" in Sweden (incl. �land and Swedish-speaking parts of Finland) and in Norway. Celebrating religious events with eating horse meat is also examplified by the Swedish king who refused and was rejected and replaced by one who would do so (Blot-Sven) - though the accounts of those events are of course colored by the Christian belief that horse meat was unfit for eating. Although I'm too lazy/busy to make proper additions to the text, I hope the above gave some more openings to the subject. At least it might expand the text so you can fit in more mages :-) // User:OlofE 10:52, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC) ==Talkpages Jallan/Bishonen== I'm pasting below an interesting conversation from Jallan's and Bishonen's Talk pages. Well, Jallan's part is interesting.--User:Bishonen_User_talk:Bishonen">User:Bishonen|User:Bishonen User_talk:Bishonen 20:52, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC) ===Doubling in Norse mythology=== Hi, Jallan. The Bibliography at Norse mythology seems to have gotten doubled when you edited it, would you like to take a look at it? (I'm uncertain as to which bits represent your changes, I'd better not mess with it.) Incidentally, if you know about this stuff, would you maybe like to turn the primary sources (the eddas) into proper bibliograpical references, from their present sad state? There's also a need (proclaimed by me on WP:FAC) for subdivision of the bibliography into References (=sources actually used for the article) and Further reading, if you're up for it. Several people are working to improve the article now it's been nominated for FAC, but I'm thinking maybe you have the most expertise of them, and that's what the referencing job needs.--User:Bishonen_User_talk:Bishonen">User:Bishonen|User:Bishonen User_talk:Bishonen 19:06, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) ===Reply=== I've fixed the accidently doubling of the