New York City Subway

The New York City Subway is a large rapid transit system in New York City, New York, United States. It is the most extensive public transportation system in the U.S. and one of the largest in the world with between 416 and 475 stations (depending on how connected stations are counted; the MTA uses 468 as the number) and 656 miles (1056 km) of mainline track. When non-revenue trackage in shops and rail yards is included, the total comes to 842 miles (1355 km). The subway is operated by the New York City Transit Authority, described by its parent Metropolitan Transportation Authority (New York) as ''MTA New York City Transit''. There is pending legislation that would merge the subway operations of ''MTA New York City Transit'' with ''MTA Staten Island Railway'' to form ''MTA Subways''.[http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/capconstr/about.htm] The Staten Island Railway operates with R44 (New York City Subway car) subway cars on a fully grade-separated right-of-way, but is typically not considered part of the subway, and is only connected via the free city-operated Staten Island Ferry. Though it is known as "the subway", implying underground operations, about forty percent of the system runs on above ground rights-of-way, including steel or (rarely) cast iron elevated railroad, concrete viaducts, earthen embankments, open cuts and, occasionally, surface routes. All of these modes are completely grade-separated from road and pedestrian crossings, and most crossings of two subway tracks are grade-separated with flying junctions. ==The subway system today== South_Ferry_(IRT_Broadway-Seventh_Avenue_Line_station)_station">Image:South_ferry.jpg|thumb|250px|left|South Ferry (IRT Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line station) station 125th_Street_(IRT_Broadway-Seventh_Avenue_Line_station)_station">Image:Subway elevated2.jpg|thumb|250px|125th Street (IRT Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line station) station The New York City Subway is designed for carrying large numbers of people during working days. In 2002 an average of 4.5 million passengers used the subways every weekday. A typical subway station has waiting platforms ranging from 400 to 700 feet (122 to 213 m) long to accommodate large numbers of people. Passengers enter a subway station through stairs towards station booths and vending machines to buy their fare, currently via the MetroCard. After swiping at a turnstile, customers walk down to the waiting platforms below. Some subway lines in the outer boroughs have elevated tracks with stations that passengers climb up to. With some exceptions, subway tunnels between stations are rectangular in shape. Many lines and stations have both express and local service. These lines have three or four tracks - the outer two for local trains, and the inner one or two for express trains. Stations served by express trains are typically major transfer points or destinations. The BMT Jamaica Line uses skip-stop service on portions, in which two services operate over the line during rush hours, and minor stations are only served by one of the two. The IRT Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line used skip stop until May 27, 2005. A typical subway train has from 8 to 11 cars (shuttles as short as 2); when put together the train can range from 150 to 600 feet (46 to 183 m) long. As a general rule trains on the lines inherited from the are shorter and narrower than the trains that operate on the other (/) lines, the result being two different divisions which cannot share trains. Subway stations are located throughout Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx. All services pass through Manhattan, except for the Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Local (), which directly connects Brooklyn and Queens without entering Manhattan, the , and the . In 1994 the subway system introduced a special fare-paying system called the MetroCard, which allows riders to use cards that store money paid to a token booth clerk or to a vending machine. The MetroCard was further enhanced in 1997 to allow passengers to make free transfers between subways and buses within two hours; several MetroCard-only transfers between subways were also added. The world-famous token was phased out in 2003, the same year the MTA raised the basic fare to $2, amid angry protests from passenger and advocacy groups such as the Straphangers Campaign. In 2005, the MTA increased the prices of unlimited Metrocards, but left the base fare at $2.00. The one major expansion that is being planned is the Second Avenue Line. This line has been planned since the early days of the system, and construction was started in the 1970s, but as yet no usable sections exist. Being a rather old system, most stations are not handicapped accessible. The exceptions are new construction and "key stations", as required by the Americans with Disabilities Act. See New York City Subway accessibility for more details. The MTA has recently begun a 20-year process of automating their subways. Beginning with the BMT Canarsie Line (), the MTA has plans to eventually automate a much larger portion, using One Person Train Operation (OPTO) in conjunction with Communications-based Train Control (CBTC). The benefits of automated subways include cost, safety, and reliability. Automated systems can be safer because all the the trains are in radio communication with each other, and their speed and position are carefully controlled. This will also lead to less delays, and better service. The new system will replace decade-old electronics that frequently fail due to flooding. Automated trains are not entirely new; they already exist in Los Angeles and Paris. (An experiment in automating the 42nd Street Shuttle in New York City, which began in 1959, ended with a fire at Grand Central-42nd Street on April 24, 1964.) The New York system is significant because it will be replacing an extremely large subway that is already in place. ===Lines and routes=== [[Image:NYC Subway.jpg|thumb|250px|left|42nd Street-Times Square station entrance]] :''Main articles: New York City Subway nomenclature, List of New York City Subway lines, List of New York City Subway services (including a detailed table)'' Broad_Street_(BMT_Nassau_Street_Line_station)_station">Image:Mta_station_wall.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Entrance to Broad Street (BMT Nassau Street Line station) station Many rapid transit systems run relatively static routings, so that a train ''line'' is more or less synonymous with a train ''route''. In New York, routings change often as new connections are opened or service patterns change. The ''line'' describes the physical railroad line or series of lines that a train ''route'' uses on its way from one terminal to another. Routes (also called services) are distinguished by a letter or a number. Lines have names. For example, the ''D Train'', ''D Route'' or ''D Service'', though colloquially called the ''D Line'', runs over the following ''lines'' on its journey: *In the Bronx, the ''Concourse Line''; *In Manhattan, the ''Eighth Avenue Line'', ''Sixth Avenue Line'' and ''Chrystie Street Connection''; *In Brooklyn, the ''Fourth Avenue Line'' and ''West End Line''. There are 27 train services in the subway system, including three short shuttles. Each route has a color, representing the Manhattan trunk line of the particular service; a different color is assigned to the route, since it does not operate in Manhattan, and shuttles are all colored dark gray. Each service is also named after its Manhattan (or crosstown) trunk line, and is labeled as local or express. Trains are marked by the service label in either black or white (for appropriate contrast) on a field in the color of its mainline. The field is enclosed in a circle for most services, or a diamond for special services, such as rush-hour only expresses on a route that ordinarily runs local. Rollsigns also typically include the service names and terminals. When the R44 (New York City Subway car) and R46 (New York City Subway car) cars were rebuilt the rollsigns on the side of the cars were replaced with electronic signs while the front service sign remained as a rollsign. All cars built since 1999 are equipped with digital signs on the front and sides plus a new sign on the interior displays the service, destination, current and next stations and the time. This is accompanied by recordings announcing the stations. Division A () consists of the , , , , , , , and . Division B (/) consists of the , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and . Division C consists of non-revenue operations, including track maintenance and yard operations. ==History== :''Main article: New York City Subway history'' [[Image:Jacksonhts_Subway.jpg|thumb|right|275px|An entrance to the elevated IRT Flushing Line in Jackson Heights, Queens, NY.]] While the first underground line of the subway opened in 1904, the first elevated railroad (the IRT Ninth Avenue Line) opened almost 35 years earlier. The oldest structure that is still in use (albeit reinforced) opened in 1885 as part of the BMT Lexington Avenue Line, and is now part of the BMT Jamaica Line in Brooklyn. The oldest right-of-way, that of the BMT West End Line, was in use in 1863 as a steam railroad called the Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Island Rail Road. Subway cars (R44 (New York City Subway car)s) operate on the Staten Island Railway, opened in 1860, but that is not usually considered part of the Subway. By the time the first subway opened, the lines had been consolidated into two privately-owned systems, Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company (BRT, later Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Corporation, BMT) and Interborough Rapid Transit Company (IRT). The city was closely involved; every line built for the IRT, and most other lines built or improved for the BRT after 1913, were built by the city and leased to the companies (via the original Contracts 1 and 2 for the IRT subway, and the Dual Contracts for later extensions and widenings). The first line of the city-owned and operated Independent Subway System (IND) opened in 1932; this system was intended to compete with the private systems and allow some of the elevated railways to be torn down. In 1940, the two private systems were bought by the city; some elevated lines were immediately closed, and others closed soon after. Integration was slow, but several connections were built between the and , and they now operate as one division, ''Division B''. Due to the being narrower, it has remained its own division, ''Division A''. The New York City Transit Authority was created in 1953 to take over subway (and bus/streetcar) operations from the city, and was placed under control of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (New York) in 1968. ==Rolling stock== :''Main article: New York City Subway rolling stock'' The New York City Subway has the world's largest fleet of subway cars. Over 6,400 cars (as of 2002) are on the NYCT roster. Cars purchased by the City of New York since the inception of the and for the other divisions beginning in 1948 are identified by the letter "R" followed by a number; e.g.: R32 (New York City Subway car). This number is the contract number under which the cars were purchased. Cars with nearby contract numbers (e.g.: R1 (New York City Subway car) through R9 (New York City Subway car)) may be virtually identical, simply being purchased under different contracts. Car models were known as "R-types" to distinguish them from models built for the private operators. The system maintains two separate fleets of cars, one for the lines, another for the / lines. All IRT equipment is approximately 8'9" (~2.67m) wide and 51' (~15.5m) long while all operating BMT/IND equipment is about 10' (~3.0m) wide and either 60'6" (18.4404m) or 75' (~22.86m) long. Though the equipment of the two fleets can operate on the same tracks, the key impediment to interoperation is the fact that the original two subway contracts built for the IRT were built to a smaller profile. This is because the IRT chose to use equipment substantially the same size as that already in use on all the pre-existing elevated railway lines in the city. This profile was consistent with older lines in operation in Philadelphia, Boston and Chicago. When the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company entered into agreements to operate some of the new subway lines, they made the decision to design a new type of car, 10 feet wide and 67 feet long, the subject of several patents, whose larger profile was more similar to that of steam railroad coaches, permitting greater passenger capacity, more comfortable seating and other advantages. The BRT unveiled its design to the public in 1913 and received such wide acceptance that all future subway lines, whether built for the BRT, the IRT or eventually, the IND, were built to handle the wider cars. As a result, while most of the IRT lines could accommodate the larger BMT/IND equipment with modifications to the station platforms and trackside furniture, this is not deemed feasible, because the original, narrower, subway includes portions of both IRT Manhattan mainlines, as well as a critical part of the Brooklyn lines. This could be remedied, but at very great expense. On the other hand, it would be relatively easy to convert many of the Bronx lines for BMT/IND operation; some of the plans for the Second Avenue Line have included a conversion of the IRT Pelham Line. ==In popular culture== [[Image:Tv_movie_christmas_eve_oscar_legs_86th_street.jpg|right|250px|thumb|''Christmas Eve on Sesame Street'' scene with Oscar the Grouch (in garbage can) and Big Bird (behind column) at the 86th Street station]] The Subway is often seen as an integral part of the city. Many living in the area through the 1980s remember it for crime and graffiti, but this has subsided since then. The New York City Subway has been featured prominently in many films. Probably the most notable instance is from the 1971 film ''The French Connection''. The subway/car chase on and underneath the elevated BMT West End Line is often considered the greatest chase scene in film history [http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20050316.html]. Later, the 1974 movie The Taking of Pelham One Two Three focuses on the hijacking of a 6- Lexington Avenue Pelham Bay Local and Local-Express in Manhattan. The 1979 cult film ''The Warriors'' based their plot around a street gang taking the subway from upper Bronx to Coney Island. The heavily graffiti cars and stations featured are in stark contrast to today's relatively clean subway system. In 2004, ''Spider-man 2'' featured a fight and crash scene on an out-of-control elevated R (New York City Subway service) in Manhattan, although the tracks did not exist; it was filmed on the Chicago 'L'. In music, the Duke Ellington performed "Take the A Train", inspired by the A (New York City Subway service) to Harlem. ==See also== *commons:New York City Subway timeline ==External links== *[http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/subway/ MTA New York City Transit - Subways] (official site, with detailed maps and schedules) *[http://www.nycsubway.org/ NYCsubway.org] (a very thorough treatment of the current system and history) *[http://www.rapidtransit.net/ rapidtransit.net] (the history, technology and politics of rail transit, concentrating on New York City) *[http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/ Abandoned Stations] *[http://www.culvershuttle.com Brooklyn's Culver Shuttle] *[http://www.straphangers.org NYPIRG's Straphangers Campaign] (riders' advocacy group) *[http://www.nonprofitmaps.org/netmaps/straps/Straphangers.asp Interactive map] courtesy the Straphangers Campaign *[http://www.hopstop.com Hopstop] (online subway directions) *[http://www.nydailynews.com/05-22-2005/news/local/story/311693p-266702c.html Daily News: No ban on subway pix] Electric railways New York City Subway Subways in the United States

New York City Subway

:''This is the top-level page of Wikipedia:WikiProject New York City Subway'' ---- The amendation by user IND Second System changed the meaning of the paragraph, which referred to the system as built, as opposed to projected "second system." I made changes to clarify that meaning, and move the Second System information to its own paragraph beneath. User:Cecropia 21:41, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC) ---- Someone working on this page ought to look at the London Underground page. The quality and clarity of the article is vastly superior. User:Fvincent 21:57, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC) Thye recent addition of "problems" is a good idea, but whether or not duplication of lines from the merger of three systems is a problem is open to debate. Duplication would be a problem if there unused capacity resulted, and the use stats (and what it's like to ride during rush hour) strongly suggest that there are not too many lines. User:Donald Friedman 4 April 2004 :The lines are not redundant. The BMT served Brooklyn and Queens and the IRT Manhattan and the Bronx. Most of the overlap were the respective mainlines of eacb company. On two Queens lines they shared trackage. Much of the IND was built to compete with some of the elevated lines, but this was intentional. User:Metamorphosis 13:42, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::I think we're in agreement - the main lines aren't redundant since they are needed to get all the branch lines into midtown and downtown. User:Donald Friedman 4 April 2004 == New York Subway needs Category == The articles with all include (New York Subway) in the title need to be condensed into a category, with a menu bar to help move around them easier. This is a HUGE task, though (as there SEEMS to be articles on most of the stations -- a huge number). Any ideas on the best way to go about this? --User:Wolf530 03:30, Jul 6, 2004 (UTC) : Sounds like you are more talking about the creation of a template than a category. -- User:Jmabel 04:52, Jul 6, 2004 (UTC) : I don't understand exactly what you're asking, but you might be interested in looking at what we've done for Melbourne railway stations as an example for organising such things. User:Ambivalenthysteria 04:56, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC) : Likewise, I suggest looking at Washington Metro and its associated pages. I'll look around the New York pages and see what I can do. --User:Golbez 19:57, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC) == Picture == Wouldn't an image help? I'm quite undecided on which type to put. --User:GatesPlusPlus 10:06, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC) : Took the liberty of adding a station picture. I have lots more, of cars, underground and outdoor stations. --User:Dschwen 15:13, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) : Comparable entries have lots more pictures. I'll pile up a few on this page and wait for some reactions whether to include them or not. --User:Dschwen 19:47, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) ::Lots of pictures would be great! If you have a good variety, I think it would be best to show the diversity of the system, since so much of the "subway" is not underground. Smith-9th is a great view, maybe a picture on the Sea Beach Line (open cut), Brighton Line (embankment), elevated shots (many, many locations), on the Williamsburg Bridge, crossing Jamaica Bayy. Lots of possibilties. Or, you've seen one dark tunnel, you've seen 'em all. ;-) -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 20:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) ::: Ok, I added a New York Subway section to the Commons:New York City page and put them there. I'm afraid, there are less pictures than you have good ideas ;-) --User:Dschwen 17:10, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC) == Article Name == Being that New York City Subway is the full and proper name of the system, _not_ New York Subway, I think this page should be renamed and the redirects reversed, so that "New York Subway" redirects to "New York City Subway." Anybody agree? --User:oknazevad 17:34, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC) :I'm not sure what would be the "full and proper" name for the system. ''New York City Subway System'' may come closer, the operating agency is properly ''New York City Transit Authority,'' some use the "popular name" ''New York City Transit'', some just say ''the Subway'', etc. It's the only subway system in the entire state of New York, so what do people ''outside'' New York typically call it? That should probably be the name of the article. -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 20:07, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) :: What I mean by "full and proper" is that if you look at the name on the top of the official subway map, it is called the MTA New York City Subway. Almost all MTA writings also call it that. Also, it's not the only subway in all of New York State as Bufallo does have a single-line system. And, in my estimation, most people outside of New York can't make heads or tails of the system in the first place. Well, maybe not. It's actually not that bad. New Yorkers and Jerseyans usually just call it "the subway", but the fact that it refers to the NYC Subway is implied. I'm not sure what people from elsewher call it, though.--User:Oknazevad 22:42, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::Well, I don't see any reason to object to changing it to "New York City Subway," except that there are maybe 150 pages linking to "New York Subway," so there are a lot of double-reds to eliminate to keep things Kosher. As to Buffalo, I don't think anyone would really think that anyone would go to a "New York Subway" link excepting to end up a stone's throw from Niagara Falls. ;-) -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 18:51, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Line names== How official are the line names? Does the MTA use them? If not, did the predecessors? --User:SPUI 14:36, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Yes, the line names are official. They are the way that the NYCTA identifies the lines other than for public information purposes. These names are used in capital construction work and other places where a location is required. For example, rehabilitation of the Avenue H station is "Avenue H Brighton Line," not Avenue H "Q" Line. SInce the route letters are ephemeral, you can see how difficult it would be if they identified the physical lines any other way. Moreover, they TA still uses BMT/IND/IRT. A recent archiects drawing of the under-rehabilitated West 8th Street Station (Coney Island) specifies "BMT West 8th Street Station." These are also used for legal reasons. :Do you have a copy of "The Map"? ([http://www.mta.info/nyct/maps/subwaymap.pdf]) Look at the Brooklyn lines going to Coney Island. They all use the line names, Brighton, Culver, West End, Sea Beach. The names are derived from the names used by the former operators in the case of pre-Dual Contract lines, and the construction names for most of the post-Dual Contracts and later. -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 18:42, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC) A few questions about the line names: --User:SPUI 17:46, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) #Does the Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line include both the line to South Ferry and the spur to the Clark Street Tunnel? #Does the Queens Boulevard Line include both eastern terminals? #Does the Broadway Line include both the line through the Montague Street Tunnel and the line over the Manhattan Bridge? :# As built, the portion of the Seventh Avenue Line that goes to Clark Street tunnel was the "Seventh Avenue Line Brooklyn Branch." I'm not sure if it has any separate name now. :# No, the new branch is the "Archer Avenue Subway." :# Even though the Canal Street Line was an entirely different mapped route (originally), I would say both are the BMT Broadway Subway. Just IMO. -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 18:14, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Naming conventions for stations== There seems to be a mishmash of various naming conventions for the lines. I suggest the following (which seems to agree with the default in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (stations), and further provides a simple name without ambiguity): *{station} ({division} station) *In the rare case of more than one station of that name in that division, {station} ({division} {line} station) So for example: *81st Street-Museum of Natural History (IND station) *14th Street (IND Eighth Avenue Line station) Any comments? --User:SPUI 07:59, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Well, we'd have a lot of station articles to change, but this is much better than, e.g.: "Church Avenue (New York Subway)" :I would go for ''always'' using the second form {station} ({division} {line} station). This is because ambiguous station names are by no means rare. For example, there are three Franklin Avenue stations. There are four Seventh Avenue stations, in four locations, in two different boroughs, three on the IND, one on the BMT, and one train (B) serves two of them! We can easily assemble a huge list. Moreover, there are some stations where there is only one station with that name, but it is still ambiguous where the station is. If you don't know, where is "69th Street (New York Subway)." There are 69th Streets all over the boroughs. "69th Street (IRT station)" is not much better. The first place I'd look is on the Lex of the Bway-7th, but both are wrong. It is "69th Street (IRT Flushing Line station)." Ahhhh! MUCH better! :The general style on Wikipedia is to use a single standard for naming, and I cast a BIG vote for {station} ({division} {line} station). Good idea, SPUI! -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 08:24, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::I guess the main problem I'd have with that is that some of the line names are somewhat obscure; we haven't even fully determined a few of them in the downtown Brooklyn/Manhattan area. Though hopefully that can be sorted out soon, and until then we can just guess on those few or drop the line name for now. As for the obscurity, using the line names wherever possible should fix that. By the way, I just discovered that a bunch of the station articles are straight copyvios from nycsubway.org (Wikipedia:Copyright problems#January 26), so we should wait until that's sorted out before doing a mass renaming. --User:SPUI 09:56, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) :::Never mind about the copyvios - the guy User talk:SPUI#SPUI. --User:SPUI 21:41, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) :::Not many of the line names are obscure. And I only see a handful of stations (e.g., York St on the F, High St on the A/C where I don't know a definitive line name. BTW, you might be interested to know the TA has been steadily moving back to line names. On the R32s, for example, the Q rolls say Broadway Brighton. And there was just a picture in the Daily News of an A train: "A | Washington Hts - 8th Ave - Fulton Express." It listed all three lines that the train uses. On the BMT/IND trains with electronic signs, the sign changes in midtown. Example: an F train will say "Queens Boulevard Express" until it gets to Manhattan. Then its a "6th Ave. - Culver Local". -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 18:54, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) This system kind of sidesteps another issue - what to call this article (and by extension, articles and categories related to it). I'd like to do some standardization of those, but I can't until we decide on what to standardize to. Personally I think New York City Subway would be best. Officially it seems to be the subway division of MTA New York City Transit. An alternate would be NYC Transit subway system (used in [http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/facts/ffsubway.htm]). --User:SPUI 16:49, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) :You can run a straw poll if you like. I think New York City Subway or New York City Subway System is probably best, but someone should really be prepared to handle fixing the double redirects. BTW, "officially" there is no such thing as "MTA New York City Transit" or "NYC Transit." These are "friendly names"[http://rapidtransit.net/net/faq/nyc/agencynames.html]. -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 18:54, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::Eh, I only count six redirects - I've cleaned up after moves with many more than that. I guess the first phase is to figure out possible names; here are the current possibilities: #New York Subway (keep it here) #New York Subway System #New York City Subway #New York City Subway System #NYC Transit Subway #NYC Transit Subway System #MTA New York City Subway (from the previous discussion) #MTA New York City Subway System Feel free to add to that list. I guess then we'll vote, and then do the moves (this page, the route pages, and list the categories in CFD). --User:SPUI 20:38, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Move to New York City Subway?== Eh, if there's no more input, how about this: In five days, if no one objects, I'm going to move it to New York City Subway. I'll do the same with all the route pages. All double redirects will be fixed. Where necessary, the categories will be listed for renaming to conform both to this naming and to other naming conventions. --User:SPUI 18:32, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) :OK by me. -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 19:20, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) :New York City Subway seems fine to me. --User:CComMack 10:29, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Rockaway Park "A" note== The TA has announced suspension of direct "A" service to Rockaway Park due to the emergency; i.e., all "A" trains will go to either Lefferts or Far Rockaway. -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 19:20, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Thanks; I'll add that to the section on Eighth Avenue Line about the fire. --User:SPUI 20:37, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Updating the table for the fire?== Do people think the table of routes should be updated to show temporary service due to the fire on the Eighth Avenue Line? Also, what do people think about the move to a template for the table? Personally I think it should stay; the guy that moved it did it mainly for page length concerns. --User:SPUI 00:10, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) Similarly, someone's suggesting to me that Eighth Avenue Line should treat the table like nothing happened in the fire, and list the C as an operating service. I disagree with this, since this is more than just a weekend outage. This is a major disruption and should be treated that way. What do others think? --User:SPUI 02:55, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) :I think the table should be updated for the fire, since this is something that is ongoing for months. I wouldn't kill the C page, just note it's not running and why. If this were a GO for a week or two, that would be different, but... (Definition of an optimist: someone who lists Third Avenue el service as "suspended.") -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 04:00, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::I'm definitely not suggesting to kill the C page; I think pages should eventually be created on dead services (like the 8). Of course I'd put most of the relevant info in an article on the line, but the service page would list what lines it ran along and a few other things of note. --User:SPUI 04:18, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) :::I agree we should have pages on eliminated services. I also think we should have histories, or at least timelines, of the letters where they describe services which have changed. Some are relatively minor, like the B and C switching uptown destinations, but there are some big changes, like the D switching southern lines at least three times (via Culver, via Brighton, now via West End) or the 8 (which you mentioned) was originally for the IRT Astoria service. -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 04:24, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::::I'd help with that if I had complete info on the changes. I didn't realize that the 8 was originally the Astoria Line; I had only known about the 8 shown on [http://nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/1967.gif]. --User:SPUI 04:28, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) Also note that Wikipedia:WikiProject New York City/Subway has some recent discussion; I didn't realize that existed until today. --User:SPUI 03:02, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Wikipedia:WikiProject New York City Subway== I've created this WikiProject; discussion not specifically related to this page should probably go there. --User:SPUI 22:31, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) ==Map== Just wanted to comment that I consider the given map horrible. While it might conform to the tracks that are listed, keep in mind that people who would find a map useful do not care about the places where the tracks go; they care about the lines. Why aren't the 4/5/6 lines even drawn in green? Can't we get a map that conforms at least a little bit to the way people use this subway network? --User:Edisk 05:23, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) : OK, I overspoke; I just looked at the map again and I understand the way it is, so I take back a lot of the intensity of my two-minute-ago comment. It seems to me that this map is more about the technical workings of the subway system. Maybe we could supplement it with one that is a little bit less technical? Do you think that nycsubway.org would let us use a map, or something of the sort? (And I'm sorry about the tone I took in my last talk post.) --User:Edisk 05:27, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) I just made another map, this one color-coded like the official map, and only showing major stations (including all transfer stations). Thanks for the idea. --User:SPUI (User talk:SPUI) 00:42, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Staten Island? == Do any subway trains make it out to Staten Island? User:Funnyhat 05:15, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Yes and no. Literal "trains" of modified R44 subway cars run on Staten Island; however, there is no direct connection between the subway and Staten Island Railway, so no trains originate on either system and run to the other. -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 05:33, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Addendum - several plans have been made for a line to Staten Island. Some of the IND Second System plans included a line from the IND Culver Line out to Staten Island, and earlier, in 1920, there was a plan to build a tunnel connecting the BMT Fourth Avenue Line to Staten Island.[http://www.thethirdrail.net/0201/sirt8.html] The latter and probably the former would have connected directly to both branches of Staten Island Rapid Transit. :By the way, free access to Staten Island can be had via the Staten Island Ferry from South Ferry and adjacent stations on the subway. --User:SPUI (User talk:SPUI) 05:46, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) I added a bit to the intro about Staten Island. --User:SPUI (User talk:SPUI) 05:53, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Starting date of the subway == I think that using 1863 as the beginning date is very misleading if you are going to use the term: New York City Subway. Since we are contributing to an encyclopedia we should be quite specific with the facts and not stretch the point just to make it fit. The date of 1904 is not arbitrary - it is a fact. The first subway line in NYC opened that year. Anything prior to that is not considered a subway (except for Alfred Beach's pneumatic line ). Also New York City did not exist as a city of 5 boroughs until 1898. If you want to say that "rapid transit in what would become GReater New York began in 1863" then that would be more acccurate. Anyway, I am glad to be here and contribute whatever I can. Allan :If we're going to use "New York City Subway", by your argument, 1904 makes no more sense. 1904 was the IRT subway; the term "New York City Subway" for the full system didn't come until much later. The use of the railroad infoboxes (on articles in general) is rather arbitrary anyway - some of the dates are for the predecessors, while some are for just the one company, and the former doesn't always make sense when the predecessors and the current company share a lot in common and are thus both on the same article. In this case, if we're going to go by the predecessors, there's no reason to stop at 1904, when we can go all the way back to the first right-of-way constantly in use. --User:SPUI (User talk:SPUI) 00:24, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::I think the point might be clearer if this article had been titled '''New York City Subway ''System'''''. But I really don't think we need another retitling. I understand the conceptual problem with using 1863, but 1904 would have different problems: e.g., the Jamaica (J) Line is unequivocally considered a New York City "Subway" Line today, but the entire elevated section over Broadway in Brooklyn was open by 1888. -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 03:30, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Urban myth - IRT Car widths == I was wondering if there you would want to somehow include an urban myth regarding the width of IRT equipment. The reason that they kept the cars the same size as elevated equipment is the correct one but for years this explanation has been coming up again and again earning it a place in subway mythology: August Belmont was afraid that the railroad companies (NY Central, Pennsylvania etc) would try to find a way to operate their trains on the new subway that he was building so he purposefully kept the width of the tunnels at elevated car width so that the wider railroad cars would not be able to run on them. What do you think? It might prove of some interest. Such a reason could be believable except for the fact that Belmont would run his private car ''Mineola'' out to the Belmont Racetrack using a connection at Atlantic Avenue to the Long Island Railroad. While the connecting track itself is long gone the right of way can still be seen from the northern end of the uptown local platform. --User:IRT1904 17:28, 3 May 2005 (UTC) :There are mentions of urban legends in articles - just make it clear that it is one and there should be no problem. --User:SPUI (User talk:SPUI) 12:20, 4 May 2005 (UTC) :To Allan: yes, I firmly believe it is a myth that August Belmont specified a smaller tunnel size to prevent the NYC and PRR from operating in "his" subway. However, the supposition fails for reasons other than those you cite. :# There is no indication that the Mineola actually ever operated through the planned connection at Atlantic Avenue, or that the connection (which was planned and mapped) was ever connected and opened. :# The fact that the Mineola (or any other 9' wide equipment) could run on the LIRR proves nothing. Running a 9' car on a 10' road is no trick; running a 10' car in a 9' tunnel is. :# It was not Belmont's subway. It was built and owned by the City of New York. If the City wanted to build it to 10' width (which it did for all the Dual Contract subways, including the IRT ones) and allow msinlinr rsilroads to use it, they could have put it into Belmont's contract. :# Historically, the way you prevented standard railroads from using street railway/rapid transit trackage was by building the line to a different ''track gauge'', not a different loading profile. Examples: broad gauge Philadelphia Rapid Transit and Pittsburgh Railways. :The reason the first subway was built to Manhattan Elevated standards was two-fold: (1) The IRT anticipated joint subway-elevated operation, which occurred on: :*9th Avenue el on the Jerome Avenue Line :*2nd Avenue el on part of the lower White Plains Road Line :*3rd Avenue el on the upper White Plains Road Line :*2nd Avenue el on the Astoria and Flushing Lines. :(2) the most mundane reason of all. Every existing U.S. rapid transit structure in 1900 (Chicago, Boston, Brooklyn, Steinway Tunnel, unfinished H&M come to mind) was 9' width). The IRT just followed what was. -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 20:44, 4 May 2005 (UTC) I liked it when you said: "It was not Belmont's subway". Try telling that to Belmont at the time. While I agree that there was no evidence that the Atlantic Avenue track connection actually existed there is nothing to prove that it didn't exist. The fact that the ROW is still there does indicate that something was going on. --User:IRT1904 19:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC) 15:36, 10 May 2005 (UTC) :I just looked through some New York Times articles from around the opening, and nothing is mentioned about the connection, only about the transfer for passengers between the subway and LIRR. There's the mention of the 1922 track plan on [http://nycsubway.org/irt/brookirt/irt-brooklyn-map1.html]. Are there any other sources other than the fact that provisions exist and speculation to indicate that there may have been a track connection? Does anyone know if there are any other notes on track/construction plans? Wild speculation - were they maybe hoping to convert the LIRR Atlantic Avenue branch for subway operations? It seems rather silly for the city to plan a system with a connection to the LIRR that couldn't be used for passenger service, unless politics was very different in those days. Anyone got a time machine? I'm assuming someone has gone through all the photos in the TA archives that might show the connection, though I may be wrong, since it seems reasonably likely that a photo taken from a sufficient place would exist, and thus we'd know for sure. --User:SPUI (User talk:SPUI) 16:52, 10 May 2005 (UTC) I am not aware of any sources on the connection but I do recall many years ago seeing crush rock track ballast in the ROW cut just north of the 7th Av platform. I don't think the City might have had that in the plans. I believe that the contract awarded to Belmont might have given him some leeway in the design (or he might have just put it in and no one said anything). I also don't believe the City had any plans to buy that section of the LIRR since they already had the money committed to build new subway lines. Joint service would not have been out of the ordinary. The BRT (and its predecessors) had been doing it for years from the late 1870's into the early 1900's. https://www.lirrhistory.com/joint.html --User:IRT1904 19:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC) :Yeah, but how would joint service work with the different widths? --User:SPUI (User talk:SPUI) 22:48, 11 May 2005 (UTC) == Even better urban myths == Hey, if you guys have too much free time, there are even better urban myths to track down: *The IND station at 76th Street and Pitkin Avenue (even mentioned within the last year or so in the New York Times) *The locomotive that Bob Diamond and others think is buried near one of the entrances of the Atlantic Avenue Tunnel *The phantom tunnel (some say station) from the IRT near Nevins Street that was built too high and so is ''above'' the current structure by accident and the chief engineer who was supposed to have committed suicide when he realized his mistake *The story that the old Beach tunnel was discovered by BRT engineers when building the City Hall station *The lost IND train: a full train of R1/9s that was taken up an old stub track by a motorman and forgotten because it was his last chore before retirement and no one realized this *That immediately after the Malbone Street Wreck, about a quarter of all those killed were not crushed but electrocuted when a BRT power plant supervisor turned the power back on, thinking it had been turned off by union saboteutrs (Stan Fischler has this, as well as years of newspaper Sunday supplements And these are just the ones I can think of "off the top of my head" -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 03:05, 12 May 2005 (UTC) :A couple more I've seen: :*The lower level of 42nd Street on the IND Eighth Avenue Line was built to prevent an extension of the IRT Flushing Line. :*The P label was reserved for the BMT Culver Line, converted to a shuttle in 1959. :*Unused tunnels exist for the Second Avenue Line on either side of the Chrystie Street Connection at Grand Street. :See also [http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=8494] for more. --User:SPUI (User talk:SPUI) 03:52, 12 May 2005 (UTC) == NYC Subway Photography Ban == Anybody have an idea of how to integrate the MTA counterterrorism measures, such as their ban on photography, into the article? --User:Alphachimp 04:32, 28 May 2005 (UTC) :The threat of the ban (it was never formally adopted) has been dropped for now. The MTA announced that the police already have the power to question those taking pictures under "suspicious" circumstances (such as two dudes who were photographing a tunnel entrance in Queens and turned out to be Iranian agents) so it is not necessary to have a blanket ban. So you may still be questioned if you are taking pictures at say, a junction, but you can't be stopped from photographing in general or have your pictures confiscated without specific cause. -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 04:46, 28 May 2005 (UTC) ::Cool. Shows what happens when you leave the city for a couple of months to go to college. We should still write something about MTA counterterrorism after 9/11, such as gas masks for all TA conductors and motormen, and armed National Guard patrols on the trains. --User:Alphachimp 05:20, 28 May 2005 (UTC) == Sign Font? == Does anybody know the font/typeface that is used for the text in all those NYC subway signs? It looks like Geneva or Helvetica to me. iIrc, it has been Akzidenz Grotesk in the recent past, but new signs are in the closely related and hard-to-distinguish Helvetica. --User:CComMack 19:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Recent addition == Take a look at what was added by Descent to the "Popular Culture": "Recently there has been some outcry over talks of a petition to ban all photography and filming of subway cars, lines, and stations for security reasons without permission from the MTA or city government. Along with new fines for sitting on the stairs, placing feet on open subway car chairs, and changing cars during travel, many native New Yorkers see this as a threat to their daily lives and just another step into making New York a complete police state." Aside from the fact that it could be better worded I object to the use of "police state" only to the extent that Descent seems to be making a political statement rather than an informational entry into an encyclopedia. It is obviously his/her opinion and I don't believe it has a place in the article. What do you think? --User:IRT1904 20:17, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC) --Not only is it POV, but its also outdated. The MTA just lifted the so-called "ban" on photography about two weeks ago, and it is unlikely to resurface. Also, the other points mentioned in that paragraph have little to do with popular culture anyway. --User:Jleon 20:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC) Yeah, something could definitely be said about the photo ban, either here or on the history page, but not in this way. I'm reverting it. --User:SPUI (User talk:SPUI) 22:25, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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New York City subway

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