List of automobile manufacturers

List of automobile manufacturers

Removed the Edsel, it was never a brand by itself, see Ford Edsel -- User:Egil 05:54 Feb 5, 2003 (UTC) As I have already explained "mini" is the name of a car not a manufacturer or a marque it does not therefore belong on this list, I am therefore removing it User:G-Man 15 April 03 21:18 I'm sorry but the first Mini where branded either Austin or Morris but the last where branded Mini. Thus Mini was a brand (in fact we are listing brands not firms we are listing Chevrolet not GM). It's interresting to notice that Mini didn't produce only the Mini but also a later model the Metro (Mini Metro) I know what I'm taking about I had one. User:Ericd 21:27 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC) Note that the new Mini removes all doubt about the previous, since it is definitely branded only Mini, no other names on it. User:Morven 08:58, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC) Having read it's unclear to if they were any BSA car produced. I know BSA owned Daimler and produced Daimler cars (you can mount BSA motorcycle pistons and connecting roads in a Daimler V8). But was there BSA branded car ? User:Ericd 21:49, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC) I answer to myself : There was BSA cars see : http://www.bsafwdc.co.uk/ Thanks Google User:Ericd 21:51, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC) I've noticed that there seems to be no standard about how car brands should be disambiguated. It's about equally split between, for a car brand Thing, between using 'Thing (car)' and 'Thing automobile'. Is there a preferred form. Should this be altered to make a standard? --User:Morven 00:10, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC) : At least some of them are based on what the company called them, like "Hudson Motor Car". A standard form for comapanies that didn't use terms in their name but need to be diferentiated from just the company name might not be a bad idea. -- User:Infrogmation ---- ==Page moved== I notice that the page was moved from "List of automobiles" to "Car manufacturers". While the old title wasn't great, I'm not too fond of the new one either. This is still a list, rather than an article about car manufactuers, and the list just concerns itself with motorcar/automobile makers, not makers of rail cars or other types of cars... unless there are plans to add that here? -- User:Infrogmation 15:54, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC) Karukera, if you're going to reorganize the page, please keep alphabetical order! -- User:Infrogmation 15:59, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC) ---- ==Reorder== What do people think about moving the list of international car manufacturers to the top ahead of the country-specific list? The international manufacturers make up the largest, most well-known companies and probably most useful articles. User:Akadruid 10:47, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC) == Revert == I reverted the anon who removed Merkur and made other changes. That Merkur was just the badge applied to German Fords sold in the US does not matter; what does matter is that it was a marque. It was not a 'Ford XR4ti' but a 'Merkur', no matter who actually built it. This page is really List of automobile marques rather than the current title, but I think it's simpler if it stays where it is. I did agree with their move of Britain to United Kingdom, and re-added it. User:Morven 09:10, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC) == Range Rover == Does anyone know if the Range Rover has ever been marketed as a brand, separate to the Land Rover brand, rather than a product of the Land Rover brand? I don't think it has but I'm no expert on the matter. If it hasn't then it would seem to me that it doesn't belong in this article. User:999 09:52, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC) : It isn't a brand. Nodody calls it the Land Rover Range or Land Rover Range Rover, not even Land Rover themselves, but there is a LR badge at the back. Plans are under way, though, to market Range as a separate brand, should the proposed Range Rover Sport model get off the ground. --User:Pc13 09:14, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC) :: I believe the manufacturers use the description ''Range Rover by Land Rover'' User:Andy G 18:19, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC) == List of major corporations == I took up the challenge at the bottom of the page and reordered the list of corporations by conglomerate. What do you all think? Dear Wikipedians, Let me summarize this discussion about the nature of the lis of automobile manufacturers. I think there is a huge need for a convention in the terminology. My contribution is as follows: A. "Manufacturer" A manufacturer of a car has a company name which is never identical with a "brand" because consists of a leading part (e.g. Renault), some words describing the activity (e.g. Motor) and a part indicating the legal form of the firm (e.g. S.A., AG, Ltd). Accordingly, this list is not a list of manufacturers, in strict sense. Manufacturers sometimes use brands of other companies because of brand licensing or for corporate reasons. (It is commonly called "Badge engineering"). B. "Makes" This word is commonly used for distinguishing between "makes" and "models". (e.g. Toyota and Prius). The problem arises in cases such as Edsel. Edsel was - in fact - marketed in itself. No "Ford Edsels" used to exist! The word "make" is ambiguous in this respect. The situation of Edsel is commonly called "a separate brand", "a separate make". C. "Brands" This words is overwhelmingly used in commerce since directly refers to the connection of a certain make and a certain product. "Mini" is a brand that has been used in various forms. D. Trademarks Trademarks refer to the legal protection of a name. Accordingly, no third party can use this name or confusingly similar names relating to cars, means or transport ( or for other goods or services, where the trademark is considered to be famous or well-known.) E. Types This word is sometimes used for "makes" or sometimes for "models" (e.g. Jaguar Type D). As you see, all possible variations have their problems. Summarizing all, I feel that "The list of automobile makes" is still the best. The practice in Wikipedia for separate entries for company names, car makes and models is to be followed.--User:Millisits 13:31, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC) Dear Authors, Dino should be removed since it never has been a separate manufacturer of cars (see Ferrari Dino, Fiat, Pininfarina and Bertone. Regards, --User:Millisits 19:45, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC) - - - - Dear Wikipedians, "Heinkel" is listed here as "Heinkel (Heinkel Trojan). It suggests that "Heinkel Trojan" was a Heinkel model - but it wasn't. "Heinkel" and "Trojan" are separate makes,however, the first is German and the latter is British. This misunderstanding can be easily explained - Heinkel and Trojan are frequently mentioned together. In fact, Trojan bought the licence of Heinkel to build Heinkel's bubble car model - which was never marketed as Heinkel but Trojan 200. If nobody has any comments, I will correct the list (and the relevant entries) accordingly. Hi, --User:Millisits 01:02, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC) ------- Dear savvy Wikipedians, I would suggest a major restructuring of this list because it becames more and more voluminous and unpractical. Several models of restructuring can be introduced such as copying the model of "List of companies" completed by lists of automobile manufacturers by country. ''Automobiles'' as a category should cover the enumeration of lists only and particular manufacturers could be devided into ''current companies'' and ''Defunct companies''. There are also lists of subsidiaries. I think the philosophy of the present list i.e. covering ownership and interest of some giants in others makes confusion since some manufacturer names appear twice such as Fiat. By the way, Fiat is not owned by General Motors (takover plans are over) but Fiat appears here as a subsidiary. My proposal is: subsidiaries of automobile manufacturers such as General Motors should be mentioned as ''General Motors '' (including Buick, Chevrolet, Pontiac etc. divisions). In addition, these divisions should be mentioned by their alphabetic order (or by their country, if applicable). Thoughts? --User:Millisits 21:00, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC) ----- Was there any car sold under the brand Zagato ? User:Ericd 20:24, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC) :I don't ''think'' so; all I've ever known about have been Zagato; Alfa, Aston, Lancia, etc. User:Morven 20:36, Aug 15, 2004 (UTC) ::Morven is correct, Zagato only builds coachwork (i.e. the interior) and not the body or engine or anything else. 15:12, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC) ----- OK,OK, I know that you are right. However, is there a List of automobile designers ?? Or even a List of automobile coachbuilders? I would be happy to see these. I disagree that there is a List of automobile brands. This is not the ''diferentia specifica'' here. Accordingly, a complete redoing of this list should be advisable. In strict sense, only a few automobile manufacturers are represented here by '''company name'' and not by '''brand'' (see: FSO of Poland (in brackets there are separate brands produced). Or ''Lada'' is not an automobile manufacturer but a brand. Should ''Subaru'' also be deleted because tthe company name is different? If you want to be consequent, only company names would be placed here. What do you think? --User:Millisits 17:31, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC) P.S. I have just added Magna Steyr, an Austrian car assembly plant. This '''is'' an automobile manufacturer but in strict sense, it is not a brand. --User:Millisits 01:32, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC) == A factory in a different country does not an automobile company make == I've noticed Audi, Opel and Suzuki have been added to the list of Hungarian manufacturers, obviously due to the existance of factories there. This addition is inviting disaster, allowing people to put manufacturers everywhere they please simply because they have factories in those countries. I believe they should be removed. --User:Pc13 09:28, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC) :I strongly agree. User:SamH 10:23, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC) ::Dear Pc13, ::Before judging whether adding existing automobile factories in countries where these really are is a disaster or not, I humbly draw your attention to my remarks above on this page. ::I wonder why do you feel that people would be confused to know that Audi TT is produced only in Hungary by a factory owned by Audi of Germany. They won't be, I think. The clasification of manufacturers by countries is, by the way, very old fashioned, because under EC rules, the place of origin of the goods can be indication as 'Made in EEC'. Or: is Acura a Japanese car? Certainly not. This is a car marketed by an American company. ::The main problem is, I strongly feel, is in the philosophy of this list. As it stands, this intended to be a list of automobile manufacturers but it is not. Manufacturers are companies having company names and having one or several brands. The present list is a mixture: generally only the distinctive element of company names is listed here. E.g. ::Ford Motor Company is a name of a company but Maserati is not a company name only the distinctive element. Company names are colloquially simplified to brands. But what do you think about Subaru? It is not a company name at all, it is a trademark (the leagal aspect) and a brand (the trade aspect) at the same time! ::One should should decide, further, why are companies grouped by portfolio of giants? ::I think, the concept of this list should be changed. We have a category automobiles, another category Defunct companies. Why do not we use these lists to include some entries in this list? Why do not we restrict this list to existing manufacturers grouped by countries mentioned under its whole company names in English (if these are available). Brands like Subaru would be indicated " Fuji Heavy Industries (see:Subaru)" and Fuji Heavy Industries would maintain a redirect to Subaru. ::I think discussion is not a disaster. To delete existing companies from a list just because the distinctive element of their company names are brands of a mother company is a clear discrimination of some nations. Who wants discriminate others? I personally won't. ::--User:Millisits :Millisits - By "distinctive element" I think you mean ''marque''. There is a List of automobile marques but it redirects to this list of manufacturers - wouldn't it be best if these two were separate, so the manufacturers list could have GM, Ford, Honda, FIAT etc. and the marques could have GMC, Chevy, Cadillac, Buick, Aston, Volvo, Ford, Jag, Honda, Acura, Fiat, Ferrari, Maserati, etc? 15:12, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC) Hi Rdmith4, thanks for your comment. I think the list of automobile marques is the same as List of automobile brands would be. I think a seaprate list of this kind would be advantagous but this List of automobile manufacturers needs being reformed. 1.I think this list would rather cover companies and not brands (trademarks, marques, as you like). 2. I think "deadwood"" should be removed from here to a subcategory of Defunct companies such as List of defunct automobile manufacturers or so. As far as I know there were several thousands of different manufacturers in automobile history. 3.List of automobile manufacturers would cover short company names such as Kia Motors or Audi Hung�ria etc. Eventual changes in name, mergers etc. would be redirected to the most popular version of the name. Thoughts? --User:Millisits :I don't think we should have two different articles for manufactuers and marques (aka. makes, brands, copyrights) because it is useful to be able to relate manufacturers to their marques (eg. as we have done in the "Current automotive corporations" section of this article). However, I do think we need to make a clear and consistent distinction between manufactuers and marques in this article. User:SamH 15:54, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC) :: I've read all of the comments, and I agree that defunct companies/brands should be moved to a page of their own. As for the question of separating brands and manufacturers, it isn't really necessary, as they are somewhat indessociable. :: I don't have a problem with indicating the active presence of a company/brand in a country other than that of origin, especially when they have specific models, but under the current conditions it's not practical. The country lists are already to large. :: Millisits, you don't have to tell me about discrimination, as I'm from a country (Portugal) where we have a tremendous lack of self-esteem compared to other developed countries and we feel the need to hype ourselves in front of foreigners as much as possible, but I'd be against including Toyota, Citroen, Opel, Mitsubishi and VW in the Portuguese brands listing. However, if we remove the "deadwood" (aka deceased brands), I'll be the one following you, including as many factories in as many countries I know of, as well as sub-contracted plants such as Valmet, Bertone or Pinin Farina. --User:Pc13 15:11, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC) == A few points in response to previous issues raised here == Hi 1. Zagato have produced cars branded as "Zagato". The list includes the Bambu, Zuma and Raptor. I think that the fact that they were not production cars is immaterial to this discussion - they were definitely released as Zagato cars. ::In that case the list is incomplete, we should include many Italian designers and all the race car constructors ? User:Ericd 09:14, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC) 2. On the whole, merely having a subsidiary in a country different to the parent company should not get the subsidiary listed as a manufacturer in this other country. However, I do feel that should the subsidiary have produced models under the parent marque name that without doing so under instruction of the parent comapny but with the blessing of the parent, that should immediately qualify the subsidiary to be listed seperately from the parent. For instance, mercedes-Benz and BMW both have manufacturing plants in South Africa. To the best of my knowledge though, only BMW SA have produced a product not initiated by the BMW parent in Germany. At least 4 models were unique to BMW SA: the 325iS Evo I & II, the 333i and the 745i (not to be confused with the 745i available in Europe from BMW). I would argue that BMW SA deserves to be recognised as a bona fide manufacturer on these grounds, whilst Mercedes-Benz SA should not. There are of course many examples around the world - Volkswagen Brazil, Volkswagen Mexico, Renault Argentina, Fiat & Alfa in Brazil, etc. :: Some of these subsidiaries have a rich history, that deserve its own article IMO, for instance Ford France was originaly a joint-venture with Mathis then became Ford France (producing it's own model differents from US/UK and German models) then was sold to Simca that was sold to Chrysler and then sold to Peugeot.... 3. Mini - under British leyland at the time - certainly was a seperate marque. The present-day MINI marque is also completely different from the origianl - BMW insist on it having all-capitals in the name too. 4. The Dino was most certainly marketed as just Dino initially. Later versions were brough back into the Ferrari stable though. 5. I think that the official names of the manufacturers should be listed first, and their common name next. For example, Ferrari would be Societa per azioni Esercizio Fabbriche Automobile e Corse (Ferrari), FIAT should be FIAT Auto SpA (FIAT), Daihatsu would be Daihatsu Kogyo Company (Daihatsu) etc. ::Not a very good idea as many constructors changed the name of the company during their history. User:Ericd 09:14, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC) 6. Perhaps listing manufacturers active per decade would be helpful in ordering the vast amount of information that is and will accumulate here? Perhaps even a list of only the currently active marnufacturers too? Ciao Zak == Laforza? == Does anyone know anything about the Laforza? It seems they produced Pininfarina-bodied Ferrari-badged SUVs. I suspect they're Italian, but I'm not sure. Googling for Laforza doesn't really bring anything up, but I did see one on eBay recently. Any ideas? --User:Milkmandan 00:44, 2005 Mar 13 (UTC) : The Laforza was built by italian manufacturer Rayton Fissore, powered by BMW straight six engines. It was imported into the USA by California-based Laforza Engineering, with Mustang V8 power. Car production was phased out during the early 90s, I believe. --User:Pc13 14:21, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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