Language

Language is a system of finite arbitrary symbols combined according to rules of grammar for the purpose of communication. Individual languages use sounds, gestures and other symbols to represent objects, concepts, emotions, ideas, and thoughts. ==The study of language== The Tolkaappiyam (தொல்காப்பியம் in Tamil) is a book on the grammar of the Tamil language, dating about 200BC by Tolkāppiyar, is said to be the world's oldest surviving grammar for any language. The classification of the alphabet into consonants and vowels by splitting the conso-vowels was a scientific breakthrough. Grammatising this phenomenon was also an achievement of that time. The Tolkāppiyam starts by defining the alphabet for optimal writing, grammatises the use of words and syntaxes and moves into higher modes of language analysis. The study of language began in North India with Panini (scholar), the ancient grammarian (approximately 5th century BCE) who formulated 3,959 rules of Sanskrit language morphology known as the (अष्टाध्यायी). grammar of Sanskrit is highly systematized and technical. Inherent in its analytic approach are the concepts of the phoneme, the morpheme and the Root (linguistics), only recognized by Western world linguists some two millennia later. In the Middle East, the Persian linguist Sibawayh made a detailed and professional description of Arabic language in 760 CE in his monumental work, al-kitab fi an-nahw (“الكتاب في النحو”, “The Book on Grammar”), bringing many linguistic aspects of language to light. In his book he developed a distinct phonetics and phonological theory. Later in the West, the success of science, mathematics, and other formal systems in the 20th century led many to attempt a formalization of the study of language as a "semantic code". This resulted in the academic discipline of linguistics, the founding of which is attributed to Ferdinand de Saussure. Philosophers such as Ludwig Wittgenstein, W. V. Quine, and Jacques Derrida have disputed the possibility of such a rigorous study of language by questioning many of the assumptions necessary for such a study, and have put forth their own views on the nature of language. There is no end in sight to this debate. ==Human languages== Making a principled distinction between one language and another is usually impossible. For example, the boundary between named language groups are in effect arbitrary due to blending between populations (the dialect continuum). For instance, there are dialects of German language very similar to Dutch language which are not mutually intelligible with other dialects of (what Germans call) German language. Some like to make parallels to biology, where it is not always possible to make a well-defined distinction between one species and the next. In either case, the ultimate difficulty may stem from the interactions between languages and populations. (See Dialect or August Schleicher for a longer discussion.) The concepts of Ausbausprache, Abstandsprache, and Dachsprache are used to make finer distinctions about the degree of difference between languages or dialects. ===Origins of human language=== Scientists do not yet agree on when language was first used by humans (or their ancestors). Estimates range from about two million years ago, during the time of ''Homo habilis'', to as recently as forty thousand years ago, during the time of Cro-Magnon man. ===Language taxonomy=== The world's languages have been grouped into families of languages that have similarities. Some of the major groupings are the Indo-European languages, the Afro-Asiatic languages, and the Sino-Tibetan languages. ===Constructed languages=== One prominent artificial language, called Esperanto, was created by L. L. Zamenhof. It was a compilation of various elements of different languages, and it was intended to be an easy-to-learn language. Other constructed languages strive to be more logical than natural languages; a prominent example of this is Lojban. Other writers, such as J. R. R. Tolkien, have created fantasy languages, for literary, linguistic, or personal reasons. One of Tolkien's languages is called Quenya, which is a form of Elvish language. It includes its own alphabet and its phonology and syntax are modelled after Finnish language. Linguist Mark Okrand devised Klingon language and Vulcan (Star Trek) for Star Trek, which have since been developed into full languages. ==Animal (nonhuman) language== While the term ''animal languages'' is widely used, most researchers agree that they are not as complex or expressive as human language; a more accurate term is animal communication. Some researchers argue that there are significant differences separating human language from the communication of other animals, and that the underlying principles are not related. In several widely publicised instances, animals have been trained to mimic certain features of human language. For example, chimpanzees and gorillas have been taught hand signs based on American Sign Language; however, they have never been taught its grammar. There are some researchers who have demonstrated that it is possible to train chimpanzees to form The Mind of an Ape. While animal communication has semantics, its syntax is much simpler than that of most human languages. Some researchers argue that a continuum exists among the communication methods of all social animals, pointing to the fundamental requirements of group behaviour and the existence of 'mirror cells' in primates. This, however, may not be a scientific question, but is perhaps more one of definition. What exactly is the definition of the word ''language''? Most researchers agree that, although human and more primitive languages have Analogous#Anatomy features, they are not homologous. ==Formal languages== Mathematics and computer science use artificial entities called formal languages (including programming languages and markup languages, but also some that are far more theoretical in nature). These often take the form of character strings, produced by some combination of formal grammar and semantics of arbitrary complexity. ==See also== * Common phrases in different languages * Computer-assisted language learning (a historical perspective) * Culture * Demographics * Deception * Ethnologue, which provides a fairly complete list of languages, locations, population and genetic affiliation * Extinct language * Fictional language * Foreign language * Formal language * FOXP2 * General semantics * How to learn a language * ISO 639 (2- and 3-letter codes for language names) * Language education * Language policy * Language school * Linguistic protectionism * Linguistics basic topics * List of language academies * List of languages * List of official languages * Naming * Non-sexist language * Official language * Orthography * Philology and Historical linguistics * Philosophy of language * Phonology * Profanity * Psycholinguistics * Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis * Second language * Semantics * Slang * Symbolic communication * Speech therapy * Tongue-twister * Translation * Whistled language == References == *Crystal, David (1997). ''The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language.'' Cambridge, Cambridge University Press. *Crystal, David (2001). ''The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language.'' Cambridge, Cambridge University Press. *Katzner, K. (1999). ''The Languages of the World.'' New York, Routledge. *McArthur, T. (1996). ''The Concise Companion to the English Language.'' Oxford, Oxford University Press. *Kandel, Jessel, and Schwartz (1991). ''Principles of Neural Science.'' McGraw Hill (esp. p. 1173). ==External links== * [http://help.berberber.com/ The language Forum] * [http://www.zompist.com/ Mark Rosenfelder�s Metaverse] provides a useful listing of 5000 languages and dialects (grouped by their relationships), where the numbers one to ten in each language may be found *[http://ccxccx.com/exchange Language Exchange Message Board] Connects language learners from around the world. * [http://language.scoutprovidence.com Foreign Language Discussion Forum] * [http://www.SharedTalk.com SharedTalk.com]: Language Exchange Community and Learning of Foreign Languages * [http://www.geocities.com/agihard/mohl/mohl_languages.html Museum of Languages] * The ''[http://www.ethnologue.com/ Ethnologue]'', a catalog of the world�s languages * [http://www.language-capitals.com Language Capitals] Guide to 8 major languages of the world with facts, characteristics and varieties *[http://www.vistawide.com/ World Languages and Cultures] � Practical information and resources on languages and language learning * [http://www.lingoteach.org/ LingoTeach, GPL tool to learn languages] * [http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/animals/animals.html Animal sounds in different languages] * [http://www.netz-tipp.de/languages.html Distribution of languages on the Internet] * [http://classweb.gmu.edu/accent/ Speech accent archive] * [http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/G_Kunkel/homepage.htm a collection of bird songs] provides many kinds of bird songs * [http://acp.eugraph.com The Animal Communication Project] * [http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/categories/lang.html Language Articles] * [http://www.loecsen.com/ Listen to Languages] Languages * [http://www.primitivism.com/language.htm ''Language: Origin and Meaning'' by John Zerzan] als:Sprache az:Dil bs:Jezik fa:زبان ga:Teanga gd:C�nan jv:Basa kw:Yeth ky:Тил la:Lingua li:Taol ln:Lok�t� ms:Bahasa na:Langue simple:Language sq:Gjuha sw:Lugha th:ภาษา vi:Ng�n ngữ vo:P�k xh:Ulwimi zh-min-nan:G�-gi�n

Language

For transcription used by some authors, check out http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm---- I call that opinion. Accurate according to whom. Yes the IPA is accurate, and perhaps there should be a link to it here. But, Samba is surely counter-intuitive and hardly the only choice for transcription or even computer transcription. The advantage of SAMPA is that it's very close to IPA (you'll most certainly find a link to IPA on the SAMPA page). And BEING COUNTER-INTUITIVE is not a disadvantage at all, since IPA is also counter-intuitive - especially to speakers of English. Linguistics is very often counter-intuitive, and that probably applies to science in general. I don't think there is a more scientific and more computer-friendly system out there. Of course, /u/ instead of is counter-intuitive to speakers of English, of course /S/ instead of seems strange, but only because is the grapheme you learn in school. In linguistics (especially phonetics and phonology), it doesn't really make sense to write instead of /S/. Of course those are all opinion, since there is no TRUTH in general. Of course I think it would be agood idea to use SAMPA throughout, but it's maybe better to include a transcription closer to English PLUS a more scientific transcription. Although SAMPA is not THAT hard to learn, I don't wanna force anyone to do so.---- Yes- that is 80% opinion at least. Further, this is a site where anyone can use whatever transcription system they like, and even, though it would be rude, anyone change someone else's transcription system. In my opinion, any transcription system that includes numbers rather than letters is more counter-intuitive than one that tries to confine itself to relatively familiar alphabets. Furthermore, British English speakers are brought up on the IPA, due to the influence of the OED, unlike Americans, and find it quite natural. --- yeah, sure, I'd prefer to write in IPA, though that's not possible for technical reasons now is it? Sure, people with linguistic training from the UK feel that IPA is quite natural, but even IPA transcriptions may vary. Anyway... I don't think it would be a good idea to exclude SAMPA or IPA transcriptions. SAMPA only has SOME numbers, it's mainly or as far as possible it's identical with IPA. --- I'll include ORTHOGRAPHY in the LINGUISTICS SECTION, because orthography is not language per se, but it is part of linguistics. ---- The subject of how to indicate pronunciations on Wiki pages is a complicated one, and simple solutions to complicated problems are frequently a bad idea. For many uses, something very simple and English-centric like the system used in the [http://www.tuxedo.org/jargon/ Jargon File] would be adequate. But it's clearly ''not'' adequate for many other uses here, particularly when describing foreign languages. Using more than one system has its own drawbacks, and is more complicated overall than using one. Yes, SAMPA (or a competing IPA-based system such as the one used on sci.lang) is probably overkill and difficult to learn for many; but the technology here can be arranged to make it simpler. For example, the server already recognizes "ISBN XXX..." in Wiki text and automatically makes links to more detailed information about a book. It could do a similar thing with "SAMPA XXX...", automatically creating a link to a page explaining SAMPA, perhaps even a sound clip. It is possible that in the future, it could display real IPA symbols when Unicode fonts become more available. Most important, though, is that IPA-based information is information-preserving while simpler systems might not be, so we can add those features without needing more information. For that reason alone, I think it is important that we adopt some IPA-based standard. --User:Lee Daniel Crocker ---- yeah... dunno about the jargon file... the question is: is it used in linguistics? ---- No, it would be wholly inadequate for that; it's just a simple ad-hoc. I only mention it to say that it would br appropriate to use in some contexts (notably the jargon file itself, which describes jargon to English-speakers who aren't linguists). Surely we will need a more complete IPA-based system for linguistics articles in general, but that doesn't rule out the use of simpler methods for other uses. --LDC ---- This article says programming languages lack "discreteness". What does that mean? -user:LC No answer for the last 4 months. I've removed the word. If anyone wants to put it back, please define it. -user:LC ----- Why does the introduction the concept 'language' START with machine language rather than with the human phenonmenon? It makes for a clever paragraph, but really now! --MichaelTinkler I have removed the sentence that says that language is a technology. Just read the definiton in the technology entry. User:Calypso ---- I'm removing this, which has no place here until someone can provide a more in-depth description of both the nature of animal languages and which definitions of "language" they don't live up to: :Most often, the term refers to vocal languages. Animal "languages" can be quite complex; but they do not satisfy the criteria linguists use to define a true language. A language must have a full grammar and be able to be used in any context to express any idea. Among the animals, humans alone have been proven to have a true language instead of a simple means of communicating a limited set of things such as danger, readiness to mate, or location/proximity. --User:Ryguasu 07:14 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC) ---- i wanna to know about the theoretically base for verbal memorising (in China, we use the word "recite")in EFL/ESL for middle school students. 1. Does "verbal memorising" equally mean " rote memorising", if not, why? 2. If "verbal memorising" is effective, then , how can it benefits the future real communication? 3. If "verbal memorising" isn't effective, and the immersion method (eg,in Canada)is still far to be proven as effective, in countries such as China, Japan where English input is badly not enough, what can we do? Thanks for any suggestion, more detailed information is esp. welcome. Email: pan_nelson@21cn.com ---- :Mathematics and computer science use artificial entities called formal languages (including programming languages) Is it actually correct to say that a programming language is a kind of formal language? I admit that there is a set S of syntactically valid programs for a given language L. Now, following Formal language, we ''could'' say that L is nothing more than S. However, this seems misleading, because L has not only a syntax by a semantics. Thus I'm confused if someone is seriously claiming that programming languages are formal languages, no more, no less. --User:Ryguasu 04:18 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC) Hey VeryVerily, have you ever learned Esperanto, that you can judge, if and how good and easy Esperanto works? How many other languages do you speak? Tell me why you found the remark about Esperantto had to be removed? Give me reasons!!! --Halsbandsittich from Wikipedia deutsch ---- The text says: '' Chomsky (1986) points out that "some dialects of German are very close to dialects that we call 'Dutch' and are not mutually intelligible with others that we call 'German'". ''' Hahaha this looks very funny. It is like citing George Washington who says that 'it is rainy today' That fact does not make it more noteworthy because George Washington himself said it, does it? How many people may have "pointed it out" before? :-))) User:Flyingbird 23:41, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC) How about adding context-free and context-sensitive languages and introduce the concept of context? That way we could ellaborate on context in linguistics and include the word meaning in the categories, which I have tried in the sandbox in the magyar wikipedia meeting with the disgust of the moderator. User:Apogr 10:46, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC) == Introduction == I find the term "self-appointed linguists" to be somewhat pejorative. Moreover, I find it highly controversial to claim that Saussure created linguistics as an academic discipline. You might just as well claim that the study of linguistics dates back to antiquity. It is a bit like claiming that Peano created mathematics as an academic discipline. ==Human languages== I am writting linguistic pages in Serbian Wikipedia. English versions are base for that. During the translation of the part "Human languages" of this page, I think I have description for that part. As my English is not good enough (as well as I don't work on this page), I will not paste it into the article. I ask someone who is working on this page to take my suggestions.

It is necessary to make distinction between "real", used languages and standard languages. Standard language exists util supporting political structure exists; "real" language doesn't have so strong relation with political structures. Standard language has strong political and ethnical influences; "real" language doesn't have. Even standard and "real" language has relations. The best example for this is South Slavic language area: from Black Sea at the East to the Alpes at the West; from South Hungary at the North to the North Greece at the South. There are seven standard languages (Bulgarian, Macedonian, Serbian, Montenegrian, Bosnian or Bosniak, Croatian and Slovenian) with one "dead" standard language (Serbo-Croatian). At the other hand, there is only one dialect continuum: going from the West of Balkan to the East and from the North of Balkan to South -- there is no so distinctive differences between two places so we can say that two of them belongs to two different languages. Standard Bulgarian language is based on Eastern dialects of Bulgarian language area, and standard Serbian language is based on Western dialect of Serbian language area. Speakers of Western Bulgarian dialects and speakesr of Eastern Serbian dialects speaks with the same language and there is no difficulties in communication between them. But, speakers of standard Serbian language and speakers of standard Bulgarian language have difficulties in communication even they can communicate (if they have good will). The same situation is between Serbian and Bulgarian at one side and Macedonian at another; as well as between Croatian and Slovenian. Things become more bizare when we try to make distinction between four standard languages born after the death of standard Serbo-Croatian language. Even differences between standard Serbian, Montenegrian, Bosnian or Bosniak and Croatian language are minimal and we can't say that there is more then one "linguistic" language. But, political and ethnical feeling of speakers of that "languages" say that they are using only "lanugage" wich has the same name with therir ethnicity and country. Because of that it is important to know that standard lanugage is political, not linguistic category. And linguists try to describe both: standard and "real" language. --User:Millosh 08:16, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

== Human Language == I included some context for just what language 'is' and moved around the linguistics section. If anyone has any comments on the change I'd be glad to hear them. --User:Kharhaz 06:21, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC) == using s and oes == == Animal Language == I have added some information to the Animal Language section. It may be a little contoversial, however, I think the previous entry did not acuratly reflect the current scientiffic consensus. --User:Selket 21:34, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) == Junk == This article is full of junk. Two examples: "The origins of the word language can be found in the Middle Ages when Latin was considered the language par excellence, so the very word "Latin"�l�den in Aglo-Saxon or leden in Middle English came to mean language." What on earth does that mean? 1) the word "language" does not come from the word "Latin", and 2) people had the concept of language before the Middle Ages. "Some say that our reality is in fact created as it is described by our language. Albert Einstein spoke of a pocket watch sitting on a table. If you had never seen a clock or a pocket watch and had no clue what it was, how might one describe the sound "ticking". Our language and linguistics can alter our reality." Vague, unreferenced, badly expressed mysticism by someone who's never studied linguistics.

Language

{| style="width: 300px; margin: 0 0 0.5em 1.4em; float: right; clear: right; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse;" border=1 ! colspan="2" style="font-size:110%; color: {}; background-color: {};"|{} ({}) |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |Spoken in: |{} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |Region: |{} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |Total speakers: |{} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |List of languages by total speakers: |{} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |Language families and languages: | style="text-align: left;" | {} |- ! colspan="2" style="color: {}; background-color: {};"|Official status |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |Official language of: | {} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |List_of_language_regulators: | {} |- ! colspan="2" style="color: {}; background-color: {};"|Language codes |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |ISO 639-1||{} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |ISO 639-2||{} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |SIL code||{} |- | colspan=2 style="text-align: center; padding-bottom: 0.5em;" |See also: Language – List of languages |}

Language

A run down on using the template would be needed --User:Circeus 08:40, Jan 9, 2005 (UTC) :Most of it is fairly self-explanatory if you know how to use templates: giving a value for a parameter inserts that value replaces the triple-braced parameter name when it appears in the article�see the Wikipedia:WikiProject Language Template for what each parameter means. The only non-obvious parameters are ''familycolor'' and ''fontcolor''. ''familycolor'' should be the appropriate color for the language's family according to the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Languages#Colors_in_the_infoboxes. ''fontcolor'' is there so you can specify a font color if black is too hard to read against the table color�I think if you don't specify it it just results in black text, so it's optional. User:Gwalla — User:Gwalla | User talk:Gwalla 06:09, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC) == Pronunciation? == There has to be some room for pronunciation. Template needs fix or improvement. --User:Rrjanbiah 17:50, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) :You have just broken this template. If you insert a parameter that shows through in the article space if it is not defined, then you have to define it in every single article. I cannot see the value of your change. I suggest you fix it. User:Garzo 12:14, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC) :Rather than revert your edit, I put it in comment tags. Now the template isn't broken. If you would like to remove the comment tags, first define the parameter in every article that calls the template. User:Garzo 12:21, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC) :Can we delete the ''improvement'' by user:Rrjanbiah: the addition of the ''pronunciation'' parameter? I'm not sure what we are supposed to do with it, and its inventor is showing no sign of implementing it. For example, for French language would the infobox render ''pronunciation'' with the IPA for ''French'' or ''Français''? The latter would make more sense, but this raises more questions: what about non-standard pronunciations? Is there any mileage in this parameter? User:Garzo 11:20, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC) ::I thought it'd already been reverted. It doesn't seem to be there anymore. User:Gwalla — User:Gwalla | User talk:Gwalla 06:20, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC) :::Keep up your ''good work''. Indeed, a ''wonderful'' argument. --User:Rrjanbiah 06:30, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC) ::::I've made some pronunciation sound files of languages over att Japanese language, Swedish language, Russian language and Mandarin (linguistics). Why not try seeing how these fit into the template? We could make an attempt to request pronunciations from other languages. ::::Isn't a pronunciation in the standard high class varieties of most languages better than no pronunciation at all? I'm sure a lot of people are more interested in actually hearing the pronunciations rather than just reading rather cryptic IPA-characters. User:Karmosin 20:45, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC) The proposal was for a line in the infobox that gave the pronunciation of the name of the language. My main gripe about it was that the proposer added the line to the infobox template but did not update any of the articles to use it: in effect, breaking the template. I think it would be great to have a wider range of pronunciation files, but that was not what this proposal was about. User:Garzo 10:38, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC) ==Alignment== Timwi's recent change of align="right" to class="floatright" broke the template's right-floating characteristic in Firefox under the Classic skin, and I'm not sure why since this seems like the correct way to handle this. Is anyone else having this problem? User:Bryan Derksen 00:35, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC) :Yes. Unsurprisingly, it breaks things in the Mozilla Suite as well. I'll fix it up... User:Gwalla — User:Gwalla | User talk:Gwalla == Can we talk about what we want the temaplate to look like? == There have been some good updates of the template recently, but there has been little talk about here. As there are a few ideas about what we ant from this template, I thought it might be best to air them here and see what the consensus really is. The issues I've seen are: # Addition of ''pronunciation'' line in template to record the pronunciation of the name of the language. As the IPA template won't work inside another template, and the fact this would involve updating every instance of the template with very specific information, I suggested we shelve the idea. # Whether we should ''align'', ''float'' or something else seems to be a technical display issue. # A few users seem to advocate ''border="0"'': as it has been consistently reverted, I assume we don't want to get rid of the border. # user:Flamurai's change to CSS throughout the template is good, but this has got rid of cell borders. Do we want cell borders? # user:Mustafaa suggested on the wikipedia:WikiProject Languages that, as most languages do not have anything worthwhile to add to the ''Official status'' section of the template, we allow a variation without this section. If we can combine the two modes into this template (call a parameter to collapse/expand the template) without having to fix every template immeadiately, this would be the best path to follow. Any thoughts? User:Garzo 12:05, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC) *It's difficult to understand at a glance without cell borders. I think we want them. User:Gwalla — User:Gwalla | User talk:Gwalla 19:49, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC) *I like Mustafaa's suggestion. I also like cell borders (if light & max 1px). User:Mark Dingemanse— User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 20:26, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC) *I've added pronounciations of language names in the introductions at Swedish language, Russian language, Japanese language and Mandarin (linguistics). I'd love to see what the template would look like if we added these, especially if we can keep the general design of the Template:Audio with the little speaker-PNG. User:Karmosin 14:04, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC) == Extinct languages? == Hi, I've started (barely) an article on Tunica, and I was wondering whether there's some way to indicate the fact that it's extinct in the template (or even if other folks agree that that's the place for it). I don't have strong feelings either way, except that the "Official status" fields seem out of place. --User:Babbage 22:37, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC) :Yes, we have jsut been discussing what to do with the 'official' section of the template. I think it might be best to replace it with a number of modules that are loaded by parameter into the existing template — the current 'official' section, a section for extinct languages &c. However, that would require a parameter to be placed in every use of the template before a change could be made. Any thoughts? User:Garzo 23:09, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC) ==What happened to the template?== I liked the color bars indicating the language family; where did they go? I don't much like the "See also" bit; it seems kind of intrusive, and breaks the theme of the template insofar as it does not describe the language. But maybe at a smaller font size it would look better... Any thoughts? - User:Mustafaa 20:47, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC) :The template used to show the colour bars in orange, but since it was changed to CSS they show white. It's really odd, but I think it's about parameter defaults. I agree that the ''see also'' line is unneccesary, and I would prefer to see each line of the classification box linked to an article instead. User:Garzo 21:34, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Modular template proposal == {| style="width: 300px; margin: 0 0 0.5em 1.4em; float: right; clear: right; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; border-collapse: collapse;" border="1" ! colspan="2" style="font-size: 120%; color: {}; background-color: {};" | {} (''{}'') |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" | Spoken in: | {} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" | Region: | {} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" | Total speakers: | {} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" | List of languages by total speakers: | {} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" | Language families and languages: | {} |- ! colspan="2" style="color: {}; background-color: {};" | Language codes |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" | ISO 639-1 || {} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" | ISO 639-2 || {} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" | SIL International || {} |} {| style="width: 300px; margin: 0 0 0.5em 1.4em; float: right; clear: right; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; border-collapse: collapse;" border="1" ! colspan="2" style="color: {}; background-color: {};" | Official status |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" | Official language of: | {} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" | List_of_language_regulators: | {} |} {| style="width: 300px; margin: 0 0 0.5em 1.4em; float: right; clear: right; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; border-collapse: collapse;" border="1" ! colspan="2" style="color: {}; background-color: {};" | Language extinction |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" | Year of extinction: | {} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" | Last known speaker: | {} |} {| style="width: 300px; margin: 0 0 0.5em 1.4em; float: right; clear: right; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; border-collapse: collapse;" border="1" ! colspan="2" style="color: {}; background-color: {};" | Literary language |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" | Literature: | {} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" | Golden age: | {} |} I've put together a few ideas about how to proceed with this template. The idea would be to have a basic template (shown right). I hope we can all agree on that as the basic format. It is the infobox we already have without the ''official status'' and ''see also'' sections. For language articles where we want to use the basic template, we would add the parameter module=none into the wikitext. Then I suggest that we have a number of additional modules that can be inserted into the infobox. For those language articles for which the ''official status'' section is relevant, we would add module=official into the wikitext. When the change takes place, this would reinsert the ''official status'' section in its current position. The section by itself is shown below right. Once we've got the idea of being to insert a module into the infobox, we could create a few extra ones for specific purposes. I thought of two we could use, shown below right, with the code module=extinct and module=lit. Other modules could be created as we see the need. The benefit of this modular approach, appart from increased flexibility, would be that all language articles are still using the same basic template, rather than different ones. Any thoughts, or should I just start setting it up? User:Garzo 12:15, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC) :The smaller templates for things like extinct or literary languages sounds like a very good idea to me. However, is it really practical to have just one basic template and a bunch of add-ons? Why not make two basic templates, one long for the bigger languages that actually have offical status and such, and one short for the smaller, but not extinct languages, that don't have any official status or such? Mustafaa suggested a short version without a information for ranking at Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Languages. I think that one and the current would be enough for our purposes. :What do the rest you think? Do we need actual templates for the extinct or literary languages? User:Karmosin 13:25, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC) A few points. First, I like the modular proposal very much. It looks like the solution we need. * As for official status and such: there are many countries that make a three-way distinction between 'official' languages, 'national languages', and the rest. Zambia for example has appointed seven national languages: Bemba, Nyanja, Kaonde, Lozi, Lunda, Luvale, and Tonga. However, English language is the main official language (cf. Constitution of Zambia 1.1.5), used by the administration and until recently almost exclusively in education. South Africa is a similar example that I know of, and no doubt there are many more cases like this. I think it is very relevant that Bemba and Nyanja have a special status, contrary to, say, Yao (an endangered language of Zambia). What do others think about this? (Actually, there is something related to this that needs to be sorted out in the country box template as well. It always bothers me to see 'English, ''other languages''' there; as if only English is relevant.) * User:Karmosin, what's the advantage of having two different basic templates over the modular approach? Having only one basic template seems more consistent to me. * In my opinion, the ranking bit definitely doesn't belong in the basic template — ''by definition'' it will be relevant for at most 100 languages (out of a total of approx. 6000 languages now spoken). Additionally, there is no agreement whatsoever on the correct ranking, not even in the top ten! I'd say this is an unusable piece of information. And in answer to your (Peter's) question, I really like the 'extinct' module. I don't understand the {} item of the 'lit' module fully, though, what would one expect to go there? User:Mark Dingemanse— User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 15:31, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) * The modular idea means that each language article uses the same basic template, and clicking special:whatlinkshere on the template page brings up a list of every instance of the template. It also forces all variations to be consistant. If there were two templates, an aesthetic change could be made to one but not the other. I agree that either the language ranking should go, or just be kept for the ''official'' module. I think the ''official'' module could handle all sorts of variation in official status — the Bemba language article could have: official status Zambia (national language). The idea behind the lit module is to deal with those languages that are effectively extinct, but are still the languages of important literature, e.g. Sanskrit language. The {} box is intended to be a list of major literary works in that language. I wonder if there would be any use of an ''endangered'' languages module. User:Garzo 11:16, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::What will this modular approach do to the color scheme? Are we going to ditch it altogether and go for one color? Will there be coloring at all? User:Karmosin 10:27, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC) :::No, the colour bars are the same in this proposal: the CSS has not been altered, and the {} parameter is called from the article and applies to the main template and any modules that load into it. User:Garzo 10:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC) :::Does anyone feel like trying this proposal (without the ranking) out yet? It's a lot more flexible than the current one and I don't see any reasons not to start applying it. Any objections? User:Karmosin 21:21, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC) == Template design == The user user:80.178.165.124 changed the table design back to the old one that seemed a lot less gracious to me with the following explanation in the edit summary: "this change allows also browsers other than Microsoft Internet Explorer to view this template properly" Being a user of Firefox for both Mac and PC this somehow doesn't make sense to me, since I have never had problems with the new table designs. Could someone comment this? User:Karmosin 21:03, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC) :That user changed it again, and I changed it back. I've left a note on the user's talk page. The change was from CSS back to HTML. This would suggest that the user is using an old browser that isn't kitted out to deal with CSS. User:Garzo 13:25, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC) :Exactly. I'm using Firefox just like Peter Isotalo and I don't have any problems. User:Mark Dingemanse— User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 14:45, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Should we make natives bend over backwards? == user:Karmosin removed the italics from around the native name, and user:Mark Dingemanse put them back. In between times, I removed a work around I had added to the template in Aramaic language to prevent italicisation of the native name (I had placed a single quote at the beginning and end of the parameter string to force the text bold instead). I did this because the italicised Unicode versions of the Hebrew and Syriac alphabets just look rotten. The italics might look good for Latin script, but probably not for many others. User:Garzo 00:32, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) :I changed it because it looked fairly awful for Chinese characters. Do we really need to keep it? User:Karmosin 00:51, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC) :A, didn't think about non-Latin characters, that's pretty stupid. I should've remembered that I had come across some examples of screwed-up IPA (because of the italicization) myself. Changed back! User:Mark Dingemanse— User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 06:53, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Sign language template == I created a template:Sign language to begin to address some of the difficulties I was having fitting Auslan into the general language template. Here is an example of the template in action: It's a temporary fix, and more changes would make it more suitable for sign languages - but for now I wanted to keep it as close as possible to the spoken language template. I think the modular idea above is a great one. If the current language template infobox was modified, using language such as "number of users" rather than "number of speakers", then I could erase the sign language template and use the general language template (with added modules if desired). If we decide to use a seperate infobox for spoken languages and sign languages, then the current language template should be renamed "template: language (spoken)" or some such. There are several other possible solutions. I would appreciate input from regular contributors to the languge project. -- user:ntennis 06:11, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Good work with the template. I think you're right, I'd love to see a sign language template working out of the language template by the modular system. The major problem is the choice of wording: ''speaker'' makes sense for vocal languages and ''signers'' makes sense for sign languages. I find ''user'' a bit bland, and I think there is a difference between saying ''I speak French'' and ''I use French'' — ability and practice. However, a major rework of the modular idea could incorporate this. --User:Garzo 15:47, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::I would also like to see a module for 'dialects'. One point of confusion for me in the basic template is the 'region' category. Until I saw the examples I assumed it meant regions ''within'' the country or countries where the language is used. This stems partly from a the heirarchical organisation of information - general at the top, then more specific categories as we go down the list (as with 'genetic classification'). I'm not sure why there's a need to explain the wider geographical regions in the basic template if we've already stated the countries? Surely readers can click on the link to the countries to see where they are located? Whereas, especially for smaller languages, it would make sense to indicate what region the language is used ''within'' a country. eg kurdish in turkey. --user:ntennis 06:28, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::p.s I moved this comment from above as I was told new comments should always go at the bottom of the discussion page. I'm new to this! ::Just changed the sign lang template to remove 'official status' and 'regulated by' sections. -- user:ntennis00:08, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC) == First steps towards modularisation == There seems to be interest in the proposal of a modular template to cover all language articles. The first step would be to agree what the basic template should look like (without any modules). This might be a little tricky if we want to include sign languages as well, but well worth a try. Then we need a rough idea which modules we would like to see, and how they are to be implemented. The first actual change would be to drop module=[module name] into the template of every article that the template. This is to stop the template 'breaking' when the template calls a non-specified parameter from the article. Once the articles are fitted with this parameter, the basic template and its modules can go online. The drafts of these templates could be kept on sub-pages here for us to work on. I shall get started with some of this work. If there are any concerns or doubts, please voice them now. --User:Garzo 10:10, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Just how are you planning to incorporate Ntennis' suggestion? I agree with you that 'Used' and 'Number of users' sound a bit awkward for spoken language. Is there great harm in having two separate basic templates, one for spoken languages and one for signed languages? It would be best, of course, if there was the possibility of some [IF > THEN] structure changing 'speakers' to 'users' when a certain parameter, say, 'type=signed', is present. But I'm a noob with regard to templates, so I don't know what's possible. User:Mark Dingemanse— User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 10:53, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

{| style="width: 300px; margin: 0 0 0.5em 1.4em; float: right; clear: right; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse;" border=1 ! colspan="2" style="font-size:120%; color: {}; background-color: {};"|{} ({}) |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |Countries: |{} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |Region: |{} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |Language families and languages: |{} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |Total speakers: |{} |- ! colspan="2" style="color: {}; background-color: {};"|Language codes |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |ISO 639-1||{} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |ISO 639-2||{} |- | style="vertical-align: top; padding-left: 0.5em;" |SIL code||{} |}

This is a draft of the basic template. I've removed ranking, as is said below, it can be factored into {} for those languages in the top hundred. I've moved {} down, so that it could be left out of the basic template, and added to the template of every spoken language, and replaced with {} for sign languages. This would be the easiest way to combine the two. --User:Garzo 22:27, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Ranking== I suggest that the "Rank" field be absorbed into the "total speakers" field. It seems weird to have that field, when most languages only ever have ''Not in top 100''. Therefore, for the 100 languages that ''are'' in the top 100, we can give the rank in parantheses after the number of speakers. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 16:57, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Weren't we skipping the ranking altogether since the figures vary so much depending on if you're including second-language speakers or not? User:Karmosin 21:11, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC) ::I'd be happy scrapping it altogether. --User:Garzo 21:19, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::I agree that it's kind of pointless. The only reason I put it in the first version is because I was just convertintg the table in Japanese language to a template. User:Gwalla — User:Gwalla | User talk:Gwalla 06:11, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::I concur; scrap it. — User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 07:50, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::yes, i really dont like this field. perhaps a little insulting to some (?). please remove. peace — User:Ish_ishwar User_talk:Ish_ishwar 06:25, 2005 May 20 (UTC) == Going modular... == I thought I'd start a new section to keep things in order here. The draft design for the base template is available at template:language/Draft. You'll see a little bit of bare syntax showing through in the ''Genetic classification'' box: this is where the modules are attached. --User:Garzo 22:14, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) {|border="1" align="right" cellpadding="5" !Syntax !Template |- |template:language/basic | |- |template:language/sign | |- |template:language/official | |- |template:language/extinct | |} I've got four templates up and running on the draft version now. Have a look at the table to the right to see what they look like. I'm still unsure about how to do the extinction module. Any thoughts? These templates are ready to go live as soon as all the articles are updated with the module parameter. --User:Garzo 22:44, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) :The modules are cool. The sign language module could have the color (silver) built in as all sign languages are meant to use this color. :I'd like to repeat my comment above about the region category as I find it confusing and unneccessary. If I'm asking a stupid question could someone please point out why? :) :Note, for example, Aramaic language: "Spoken in: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Georgia, Lebanon, Palestine, Russia, Syria, Turkey. :Region: Throughout the Middle East, Central Asia, Europe, North America and Australia." :Why does Australia end up as a region and not a country? Why is North America a region but the language is apparently spoken in no countries of the region? I looked at the first 6 languages listed as using the template [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Template%3ALanguage] and found the 'region' category either pointless, nonsensical, or contradictory. (The languages are: Arabic language, Afrikaans, Armenian language, Aramaic language, Albanian language, Basque language) :Also note Chinese language and the way Catalan language uses region as a kind of ''sub'' category rather than 'super' category (as I thought it was originally intended)-- user:ntennis 01:07, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::Those are some confusing cases indeed. I for one always use it as a specifier: see Nafaanra language and Nobiin language for examples. The problem arises when a language is spoken in a lot of countries. — User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 07:29, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::Is it possible to make links to pronunciations as a separate module? That would allow it to be applied to at least a few languages which might might catch on if people see it in action. We might get more pronunciation files recorded that way. User:Karmosin 20:04, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC) OK: the responses are generally favourable. I agree that I find the two geographical sections confusing. I think it might be best to have one geographical section (probably best titled ''region'', as it's less specific). Then all the geographical information can be put in there, and it can be a specific, or not, as is appropriate -- I'll make this change. Coding ''silver'' directly into the sign-language template won't work with the way I've set it up, I'm afraid: the parameter still needs to be specified in the article (it would be possible to create another template, which called template:language and gave it the parameter). Adding a link to pronunciation files would be possible, but I'm not sure if an infobox is the best place for them. A well-rounded article for a spoken language should have a pronunciation section, and that would be the appropriate place for the files. If there were a draft version of how the pronunciation files would be linked in, it might be easier to understand how it might work. --User:Garzo 22:16, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) :I mean pronunciation of the name of the language. Like Russian language and Swedish language. All other pronunciation files belong to the phonology section. User:Karmosin 22:29, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC) I didn't realise that you meant the pronunciation of the name of the language. Therefore, the infobox for Swedish might read: Swedish (svenska) . It seems obvious to put this in the header of the infobox, where the name is given, but I wonder whether this might look a little too cluttered. --User:Garzo 11:06, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) I decided to try implementing the new modular language template, and ran into a few snags. You can see the results Template talk:Language/Modular samples. User:IceKarma 22:48, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC) I've created a User:IceKarma/Modular template draft 2 that resolves the issues I found. User:IceKarma 00:51, 2005 Apr 26 (UTC) :I'm not sure that that fix works properly: I'll look into it. --User:Garzo 13:32, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) == links for SIL codes == The template was recently changed to make the SIL code an external link to Ethnologue. This is, in principle, cool, but it broke at least a couple articles. Ethnologue tends to be rather liberal in treating lects as distinct languages. For some dialect continua and clusters of very closely related languages, it seems to make sense to treat them together in a single article. When I created Fula language, I did this, rather than having an individual article on every variety Ethnologue considers distinct. I followed the example of Aramaic language and listed all the SIL codes in the infobox. When the template was changed, both articles (and possible others), were messed up. I know very little about templates and don't know the best way to handle this. --User:Chrajohn 15:22, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) :I've had major problems with very stubborn POVing in Scanian language because of SIL's inexplicable determination to classify some (but far from all) dialects of certain languages as seperate languages. The best example of where SIL clearly disagrees with speakers and linguists alike is Flemish language. There are a lot of editors who seem to use SIL as a way to validate various regionalist claims of their own specific dialect being a seperate language and this is not made easier by the fact that the SIL code is included in the template. :Would anyone object to ditching the SIL altogether and sticking only to ISO-639 in the infobox? User:Karmosin 15:49, May 1, 2005 (UTC) ::In its 15th edition, Ethnologue uses the ISO-639-3 codes, so the SIL codes seem to be deprecated anyway. I don't like the first versions of ISO 639, as they tend to lump a lot of African languages together under one code (e.g. many obscure Niger-Congo languages are simply coded ''nic'' together presumably just because they're obscure — bigger languages tend to get their own code). But ISO 639-3 looks OK to me. — User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 16:28, 1 May 2005 (UTC) :::It's just too difficult to find a work-around for infoboxes that don't have a single SIL code. So, I've commented out the external link in the template. If someone really wants a direct link to the relevant SIL page in the infobox, then it is probably best to place the link inside the parameter. --User:Garzo 10:20, 11 May 2005 (UTC) == ISO 639-3 == Does anyone think that the ISO 639-3 should be added to the template? User:REX 19:29, 12 May 2005 (UTC) :Yes I think so. In fact, as I pointed out above, the SIL code and the ISO 639-3 code are identical since the 15th edition of the Ethnologue. The template could be adjusted to reflect that. — User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 19:48, 12 May 2005 (UTC) ::If we change the template, we'd need to go through all the language articles and change them all too, since the 14th edition SIL codes don't match, but that's not too big a deal. I've also updated my User:IceKarma/Modular template draft 2 to read "ISO 639-3" instead of "SIL". Someone please take a look at it, I've had no feedback whatsoever. ;) User:IceKarmaUser talk:IceKarma#new 23:49, 2005 May 12 (UTC) :::If the 14th edition SIL codes don't match the ISO/DIS 639-3 code then don't mix them up. We should do a entry in the table for both, and possibly remove the SIL ones once ISO 693-3 is official. ---User:Moyogo 20:51, 2005 May 17 (UTC) ::Why should we stick to using 14th edition SIL codes if the 15th edition of the Ethnologue is already published? It is only an additional benefit that the ISO/DIS 639-3 are going to be the same as the 15th edition SIL codes. I don't see a reason to keep the obsolete SIL codes. — User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 00:22, 18 May 2005 (UTC) ::The ISO/DIS 639-3 has not been released yet, ethnologue uses it and labels it correctly, it is not refered to as SIL code. So as far as I understand SIL code means 14th edition codes, and ISO/DIS 639-3 means 15th edition codes. If we simply subsitute the title ''SIL'' for ''ISO 693-3'' in the table, then a lot of codes will be wrong. The SIL 14th edition code could be useful for reference, but it's ok if it's faded out of all the articles. ---User:Moyogo 09:05, 2005 May 19 (UTC) == Better colors? == I think the colors suggested here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages#Colors in the infoboxes are too bright. I really think we could find a more pleasing color pallet, for example see List of Presidents of the United States. Basically I think a paler set of colors (like the colors used on the Main Page), would be more pleasing. Anyone else agree? Any chance we could choose better colors? (I have also initiated a discussion about this here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages#Infobox colors.) User:Paul August User_talk:Paul August 03:11, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC) :I most defenitely agree! -User:Marianocecowski 10:27, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

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