
Jerusalem (Hebrew language: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushalayim; Arabic language: القدس al-Quds; see also names of Jerusalem) is an ancient Middle Eastern city of key importance to the religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. With a population of 704,900 (as of December 31, 2004 [http://www.cbs.gov.il/population/new_2004/tab_3.pdf]), it is a richly heterogeneous city, representing a wide range of national, religious, and socioeconomic groups. The section called the "Old City" is surrounded by walls and consists of four quarters: Jewish, Christianity, Armenian (people), and Muslim. The status of the city is hotly disputed. The 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and Jordan, also known as the Green_Line#Israel, cuts through the city. Since Israel's victory in the 1967 Six-Day War, it has controlled the entire city and claims sovereignty over it. According to Israeli Jerusalem Law, Jerusalem is the capital of the State of Israel, and is the center of Jerusalem District; it serves as the country's seat of government and otherwise functions as capital. Many countries do not recognize Israeli sovereignty over some or all of the city and enforce this view by maintaining their embassies in Tel Aviv or in the suburbs. Palestinians also claim all or part of Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state. == Name == The origin of the name of the city is uncertain. It is possible to understand the name (Hebrew language ''Yerushalayim'') as either "Heritage of Salem" or "Heritage of Peace" - a contraction of "heritage" (''yerusha'') and Salem (''Shalem'' literally "whole" or "complete") or "peace" (''shalom''). (See the Biblical commentator the Ramban for explanation.) "Salem" is the original name used in Genesis 14:18 for the city. Similarly the Amarna Letters call the city ''Uru Salim'' in Akkadian, a cognate of the Hebrew language ''Ir Shalem'' ("city of Salem"). Some consider a connection between the name and ''Shalim'' the personification of dusk in Ugarit myth. See also Names_of_Jerusalem. == History == === Antiquity (Prehistory - 6 CE) === [[Image:Jerusalem ruins from Davids.jpg|thumbnail|150px|Archaeology ruins from King David's time]] This city has known many wars and various periods of occupation. According to Jewish tradition it was founded by Abraham's forefathers Shem and Eber. In Genesis it was ruled by Melchizedek, regarded in Jewish tradition as being a priest of God and identical to Shem. Later it was conquered by the Jebusites. After this it came under Jewish control. The Bible records that King David defeated the Jebusites in war and captured the city without destroying it. David then expanded the city to the south, and declared it the capital city of the united Kingdom of Israel. Later, according to the Bible, the Temple in Jerusalem was built in Jerusalem by King Solomon. The Temple became a major cultural center in the region, eventually overcoming other ritual centers such as Shilo and Bethel. Near the end of the reign of King Solomon, the northern ten tribes split off to form the Kingdom of Israel with its capital at Samaria. Jerusalem then became the capital of the southern kingdom, the Kingdom of Judah. By the end of the "First Temple Period," Jerusalem was the sole acting religious shrine in the kingdom and a center of regular pilgrimage. Although recent achaeological finds may push the date yet earlier (see Tel Dan Stele), around the ninth century BCE clear historical records begin to corroborate some of the biblical history, the kings of Judah become historically identifiable, and the significance the Temple had in Jewish religious life is clear. Jerusalem was the capital of the Kingdom of Judah for some 400 years. It had survived (or, as some historians claim, averted) an Assyrian Siege of Jerusalem (701 BC), unlike Samaria, the capital of the northern Kingdom of Israel, which had fallen some twenty years previously. However, the city was overcome by the Babylonians in 586 BCE, who then took the young king Jehoiachin into Babylonian captivity, together with most of the aristocracy. However, the country rebelled again under Zedekiah, prompting the city's repeated conquest and destruction by Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon. The temple was burnt, and the city's walls were ruined, thus rendering what remained of the city unprotected. After several decades of Babylonian captivity of Judah and the Persian conquest of Babylon, the Persians allowed the Jews to return to Judah and rebuild the city's walls and the Temple. It has continued to be the capital of Judah and center of Jewish worship, as a province under the Persians, Greek and Romans, with a relatively short period of independence under the Hasmonean Kingdom. The Temple complex was upgraded and the Temple itself rebuilt under Herod the Great, a Jewish client-king under Roman Empire rule, around 19 BCE. That structure is known as the Second Temple, and was the most important of the many improvements Herod made to the city. After Herod's death, the province and city came under direct Roman rule in 6 CE. === Roman Rule (6 CE - 638 CE) === [[Image:Sheqel_of_Israel_ca_68_AD.jpg|left|thumb|100px|A coin issued by the rebels in 68. Obverse: "Shekel Israel, year 3". Reverse: "Jerusalem the Holy"]] [[Image:sack_of_jerusalem.JPG|right|thumb|150px|Sack of Jerusalem. A fragment from the Arch of Titus, Rome.]] After a brief period of oppressive Roman rule, the city was ruined yet again when a civil war accompanied by a Great Jewish Revolt against Rome in Judea led to the city's repeated sack and ruin at the hands of Titus Flavius in 70 CE. The Second Temple was burnt, and the whole city was ruined. The only remaining part of the Temple was a portion of an external (retaining) wall which became known as the Western Wall. After the end of this first revolt, the Jews continued to live in Jerusalem in significant numbers, and were allowed to practice their religion. In the second century the Roman Emperor Hadrian began to rebuild Jerusalem as a pagan city while restricting some Jewish practices. Angry at this affront, the Judeans again revolted led by Bar Kokhba's revolt. Hadrian responded with overwhelming force, putting down the revolution and killing as many as half a million Jews, and resettling the city as a pagan polis under the name Aelia Capitolina. Jews were forbidden to enter the city, but for a single day of the year, Tisha B'Av, (the Ninth of Av, see Hebrew calendar), when they could weep for the destruction of their city at the Temple's only remaining wall. For another 150 years, the city remained a relatively unimportant Roman town. Under Byzantine Emperor Constantine, however, rebuilt Jerusalem as a Christian center of worship, building the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in 335. Jews were banned from the city, except under a brief period of Persian rule from 614-629. === Arab, Crusader, and Early Ottoman Rule (638-1800s)=== [[Image:Jerusalem985-1052.jpg|thumbnail|right|150px|Map of Jerusalem as it appeared in the years 958-1052, according to Arab geographers such as al-Muqaddasi.]] Although the Qur'an does not mention the name "Jerusalem", the ''hadith'' specify that it was from Jerusalem that Muhammad ascended to heaven in the Night Journey, or Isra and Miraj. The city was one of the Arab Caliphate's first conquests in 638 CE; according to Arab historians of the time, the Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab personally went to the city to receive its submission, cleaning out and praying at the Temple Mount in the process. Some Muslim and non-Muslim sources add that he built a mosque there. Sixty years later, the Dome of the Rock was built, a structure in which there lies the stone where Muhammad is said to have tethered his mount Buraq during the Isra. This is also reputed to be the place where Abraham went to sacrifice his son (Isaac in the Jewish tradition, Ishmael in the Muslim one.) Note that the octagonal and gold-sheeted Dome is not the same thing as the Al-Aqsa Mosque beside it, which was built more than three centuries later. Under the early centuries of Muslim rule, especially during the Umayyad Dynasty (650-750) and Abbasid Dynasty (750-969) dynasties, the city prospered; the geographers Ibn Hawqal and al-Istakhri (10th century) describe it as "the most fertile province of Palestine (region)", while its native son the geographer al-Muqaddasi (born 946) devoted many pages to its praises in his most famous work, ''The Best Divisions in the Knowledge of the Climes.'' The early Arab period was also one of religious tolerance. However, in the early 11th century, the Egyptian Fatimid Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered the destruction of all churches and synagogues in Jerusalem, a policy reversed by his successors. Reports of this were one cause of the First Crusade, which marched off from Europe to the area, and, on July 15, 1099, Christian soldiers took Jerusalem after a difficult Siege of Jerusalem (1099). They then proceeded to slaughter most of the city's Muslim and Jewish inhabitants. Raymond d'Aguiliers, chaplain to Raymond de Saint-Gilles, Count of Toulouse, wrote: :''Piles of heads, hands, and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one's way over the bodies of men and horses. But these were small matters compared to what happened at the Temple of Solomon, a place where religious ceremonies were ordinarily chanted. What happened there? If I tell the truth, it will exceed your powers of belief. So let it suffice to say this much, at least, that in the Temple and porch of Solomon, men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle-reins. Indeed, it was a just and splendid judgment of God that this place should be filled with the blood of unbelievers, since it had suffered so long from their blasphemies. The city was filled with corpses and blood.'' (Edward Peters, ''The First Crusade: The chronicle of Fulcher of Chartres and other source materials'', p. 214) Jerusalem became the capital of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, a feudal state, of which the Kings of Jerusalem was the chief. Neither Jews nor Muslims were allowed into the city during that time. The Kingdom of Jerusalem lasted until 1291; however, Jerusalem itself was recaptured by Saladin in 1187, who permitted worship of all religions. In 1173 Benjamin of Tudela visited Jerusalem. He described it as a small city full of Jacobite (Orthodox)s, Armenians, Greeks, and Georgia (country)ns. Two hundred Jews dwelt in a corner of the city under the Tower of David. In 1219 the walls of the city were taken down by order of the Sultan of Damascus; in 1229, by treaty with Egypt, Jerusalem came into the hands of Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor. In 1239 he began to rebuild the walls; but they were again demolished by Da'ud, the emir of Kerak. [[Image:Tower of david jerusalem.jpg|thumb|left|Medieval Tower of David (Migdal David) in Jerusalem today]] In 1243 Jerusalem came again into the power of the Christians, and the walls were repaired. The Kharezmian Tatars took the city in 1244; and they in turn were driven out by the Egyptians in 1247. In 1260 the Tatars under Hulaku Khan overran the whole land, and the Jews that were in Jerusalem had to flee to the neighboring villages. In 1244, Sultan Malik al-Muattam razed the Jerusalem's Old City Walls, rendering it again defenseless and dealing a heavy blow to the city's status. In the middle of the 13th century, Jerusalem was captured by the Egyptian Mameluks. In 1517, it was taken over by the Ottoman Empire and enjoyed a period of renewal and peace under Suleiman the Magnificent - including the rebuilding of magnificent walls of what is now known as the Old City (however, some of the wall foundations are remains of genuine antique walls). The rule of Suleiman and the following Ottoman Sultans brought an age of "religious peace"; Jew, Christian and Muslim enjoyed the freedom of religion the Ottomans granted them and it was possible to find a synagogue, a church and a mosque in the same street. The city remained open to all religions, although the empire's faulty management after Suleiman meant slow economical stagnation. In 1482, the visiting Dominican Order priest Felix Fabri described Jerusalem as ''a dwelling place of diverse nations of the world, and is, as it were, a collection of all manner of abominations''. As ''abominations'' he listed Saracens, Greeks, Syrians, Jacobites, Abyssianians, Nestorians, Armenians, Gregorians, Maronites, Turcomans, Bedouins, Assassins, a sect possibly Druze, Mamelukes, and ''the most accursed of all'', Jews. Only the Latin Christians ''long with all their hearts for Christian princes to come and subject all the country to the authority of the Church of Rome''. (A. Stewart, Palestine Pilgrims Text Society, Vol 9-10, p. 384-391) === Revival of Jerusalem (1800s-1917) === [[Image:Jews in Jerusalem 1895.jpg|thumb|Jews in Jerusalem 1895]] The modern history of Jerusalem began in the mid-nineteenth century, with the decline of the Ottoman Empire. At that time, the city was a backwater, with a population that did not exceed 8,000. Nevertheless, it was, even then, an extremely heterogeneous city because of its significance to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The population was divided into four major communities--Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Armenian--and the first three of these could be further divided into countless subgroups, based on precise religious affiliation or country of origin. An example of this would be the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which was meticulously partitioned between the Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Armenian Church, Coptic Church, and Ethiopian Church churches. Tensions between the groups ran so deep that the keys to the shrine were kept with a 'neutral' Muslim family for safekeeping. At that time, the communities were located mainly around their primary shrines. The Muslim community, then the largest, surrounded the Haram ash-Sharif or Temple Mount (northeast), the Christians lived mainly in the vicinity of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (northwest), the Jews lived mostly on the slope above the Western Wall (southeast), and the Armenians lived near the Gates in Jerusalem's Old City Walls (southwest). In no way was this division exclusive, however, it did form the basis of the four quarters during the British Mandate period (1917-1948). Several changes occurred in the mid-nineteenth century, which had long-lasting effects on the city: their implications can be felt today and lie at the root of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict over Jerusalem. The first of these was a trickle of Jewish immigrants, from the Middle East and Eastern Europe, which shifted the balance of population by the middle of the 19th century. The first such immigrants were Orthodox Judaism Jews: some were elderly individuals, who came to die in Jerusalem and be buried on the Mount of Olives; others were students, who came with their families to await the coming of the Messiah, and adding new life to the local population. At the same time, European colonial powers also began seeking toeholds in the city, hoping to expand their influence pending the imminent collapse of the Ottoman Empire. This was also an age of Christian religious revival, and many churches sent missionaries to proselytize among the Muslim and especially the Jewish populations, believing that this would speed the Second Coming of Christ. Finally, the combination of European colonialism and religious zeal was expressed in a new scientific interest in the biblical lands in general and Jerusalem in particular. Archeological and other expeditions made some spectacular finds, which increased interest in Jerusalem even more. [[Image:Jewish Quarter 1930.jpg|thumb|The Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem 1930]] By the 1860s, the city, with an area of only 1 square kilometer, was already overcrowded. Thus began the construction of the New City, the part of Jerusalem outside of the city walls. Seeking new areas to stake their claims, the Russian Orthodox Church began constructing a complex, now known as the Russian Compound, a few hundred meters from Gates in Jerusalem's Old City Walls. The first attempt at residential settlement outside the walls of Jerusalem was begun by Jews, who built a small complex on the hill overlooking Zion Gate, across the Valley of Hinnom. This settlement, known as Mishkenot Sha’ananim, eventually flourished and set the precedent for other new communities to spring up to the west and north of the Old City. In time, as the communities grew and connected geographically, this became known as the New City. === British Mandate (1917-1948) === [[Image:Jewish_legion_hakotel_1917.jpg|right|thumb|Jewish Legion soldiers at the Western Wall after taking part in 1917 British conquest of Jerusalem]] The United Kingdom were victorious over the Turks in the Middle East and with victory in Palestine, General Sir Edmund Allenby, commander-in-chief of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force entered Jerusalem on foot, out of respect for the Holy City, on December 11th, 1917. By the time Edmund Allenby took Jerusalem from the Ottomans in 1917, the new city was a patchwork of neighborhoods and communities, each with a distinct ethnic character. This continued under British rule, as the New City of Jerusalem grew outside the old city walls and the Old City of Jerusalem gradually emerged as little more than an impoverished older neighborhood. One of the British bequests to the city was a town planning order requiring new buildings in the city to be faced with sandstone and thus preserving some of the overall look of the city, even as it grew. During the 1930s, two important new institutions, the Hadassah and Hebrew University were founded in Jerusalem's Mount Scopus. British rule marked a period of growing unrest. Arab resentment at British rule and the influx of Jewish immigrants (by 1948 1 in 6 Jews in Palestine lived in Jerusalem) boiled over in anti-Jewish riots in Jerusalem in 1920, 1929, and the 1930s that caused significant damage and several deaths. The Jewish community organized self-defense forces in response to the Jerusalem pogrom of April, 1920 and later disturbances; while other Jewish groups carried out bombings and attacks against the British, especially in response to suspected complicity with the Arabs and restrictions on immigration during World War II imposed by the White Paper of 1939. The level of violence continued to escalate throughout the 1930s and 1940s. On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly approved a 1947 UN Partition Plan which partitioned the British Mandate of Palestine into two states: one Jewish and one Arab. Each state would be composed of three major sections, linked by extraterritorial crossroads, plus an Arab enclave at Jaffa, Israel. The Greater Jerusalem area would fall under international control. After partition, the fight for Jerusalem escalated, with heavy casualties among both fighters and civilians on the British, Jewish, and Arab sides. By the end of March, 1948, just before the British withdrawal, and with the British increasingly reluctant to intervene, the roads to Jerusalem were cut off by Arab irregulars, placing the Jewish population of the city under siege. The siege was eventually broken, though massacres of civilians occured on both sides, before the 1948 Arab-Israeli War began with the end of the British Mandate in May of 1948. === Jerusalem and the Arab-Israeli conflict (1948-)=== Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, when a Palestinian-Arab state failed to materialize and the British Mandate of Palestine was invaded by Egypt and Jordan, Jerusalem was divided. The Western half of the New City became part of the new state of Israel, while the eastern half, along with the Old City, was annexed by Jordan. Jordan did not allow Jewish access to the Western Wall (also known to non-Jews as the Wailing Wall) and Temple Mount, Judaism's holiest sites, in the Old City. [[Image:Generals_Rabin_Dayan_Narkis_Jerusalem_1967.jpg|thumb|General Moshe Dayan (center); General Yitzchak Rabin (right); General Uzi Narkiss (left), entering Old City in June 1967]] The United Nations proposed, in its 1947 plan for the partition of Palestine, for Jerusalem to be a city under international administration. However, on January 23, 1950 the Knesset passed a resolution that stated Jerusalem was the capital of Israel. East Jerusalem was captured by Israel Defense Force following the Six Day War in 1967. Most Jews celebrated the event as a liberation of the city; a new Israeli holiday was created, Jerusalem Day (''Yom Yerushalayim''), and the most popular secular Hebrew language song, "Jerusalem of Gold" (''Yerushalayim shel zahav''), was written in celebration. Following this the medieval Magharba Quarter was demolished, and a huge public plaza was built in its place behind the Western Wall. [[Image:Soldiers_at_night_at_KOTEL.jpg|left|thumb|Israel Defense Forces on parade at the Western Wall plaza]] Many large state gatherings of the State of Israel take place there now, including the official swearing-in of different Israel army officers units, national ceremonies such as memorial services for fallen Israeli soldiers on ''Yom Hazikaron'', huge celebrations on Israel Independence Day (''Yom Ha'atzmaut''), huge gatherings of tens of thousands on Jewish religious holidays, and on-going daily prayers by regular attendees. It is also a major high-point for tourists visiting Jerusalem. Under Israeli control members of all religions were largely granted access to their holy sites. The medieval Magharba neighbourhood in front of the Wall was demolished and a large open air plaza constructed. This plaza is a favored site of Jewish prayer services. However, concerns have been raised about several attacks on the Al-Aqsa Mosque, notably a serious fire in 1969 (arson by a delusional Australian tourist) and tunnels opened beneath that mosque, discovered in 1981, 1988 and 1996. The status of East Jerusalem remains a highly controversial issue. === Current status === Israeli law designates Jerusalem as the capital of Israel; only a few countries recognize this designation. See #Status_as_Israel's_capital. According to the 1947 UN Partition Plan, Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city, not part of either the proposed Jewish or Arab state. Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, West Jerusalem was occupied by Israel, while East Jerusalem (including the Old City) was occupied by Jordan, along with the West Bank. The Jordanian annexation of the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) was not internationally recognized, except by the United Kingdom and Pakistan. In the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel occupied East Jerusalem, and began taking steps to unify the city under Israeli control. It annexed 6.4 km² of Jordanian Jerusalem and 64 km² of the nearby West Bank. (see [http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/key_maps/3.stm Maps of Jerusalem pre- and post-1967]). Residents of the annexed territory were offered Israeli citizenship on condition they renounce their Jordanian citizenship, which most of them refused to do. In 1988, Jordan withdrew all its claims to the West Bank (including Jerusalem) in favor of the Palestine Liberation Organization. The status of Palestinians in East Jerusalem is also controversial. The Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem have a 'permanent resident' status, which allows them to move within Israel proper. However should they move out of Israel proper (e.g. into the Palestinian territories), this status will be lost and they will not be able to return. Since many have extended families in the West Bank, only miles away, this often implies enormous hassles. By Israel's Citizenship Law, they are entitled to Israeli citizenship, which they can receive automatically or almost automatically, provided that they do not have any other citizenship. Thus, many Palestinians who would like to hold their Jordanian passports have to retain the status of permanent residents. Some Palestinians decline to accept citizenship since they consider it equivalent to accepting Israel's annexation. Another issue is the status of family members not recorded in the census preceding the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem. They must apply for entry into East Jerusalem for family reunification with the Ministry of the Interior. Palestinians complain that such applications have been arbitrarily denied for purposes of limiting the Palestinian population in East Jerusalem, while Israeli authorities claim they treat Palestinians fairly. These and other aspects have been a source of criticism from Palestinians and Israeli human rights organizations, such as B'Tselem. == Status as Israel's capital == [[Image:Knesset in Jerusalem Israel.jpg|thumb|150px|The modern Knesset building, Israel's parliament, in Jerusalem today]] In 1980, the Israeli Knesset confirmed Jerusalem's status as the nation's "eternal and indivisible capital", by passing the ''Jerusalem Law''. As of 2004, only two states, Costa Rica and El Salvador, have their embassies in Jerusalem (since 1984), but the Consulate General of Greece as well as that of the United Kingdom and the United States is based there. Additionally, Bolivia and Paraguay have their embassies in Mevasseret Zion, a suburb of Jerusalem. All the branches of Israeli government (Presidential, Legislative, Judicial, and Administrative) are seated in Jerusalem. The Knesset building is well known in Jerusalem. === Palestinian aspirations === Palestinian groups claim either all of Jerusalem (''Al-Quds'') or East Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state. === UN position === The position of the United Nations on the question of Jerusalem is contained in General Assembly resolution 181(11) and subsequent resolutions of the General Assembly and the Security Council concerning this question. The UN Security Council, in UN Security Council Resolution 478, declared that the 1980 Jerusalem Law declaring Jerusalem as Israel's "eternal and indivisible" capital was "null and void and must be rescinded forthwith" (14-0-1, with United States abstaining). The resolution instructed member states to withdraw their diplomatic representation from the city as a punitive measure. Before this resolution, thirteen countries maintained their embassies in Jerusalem: Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, the Netherlands, Panama, Uruguay, Venezuela. Following the UN resolution, all thirteen moved their embassies to Tel Aviv. Costa Rica and El Salvador moved theirs back to Jerusalem in 1984. === United States position === The United States ''Jerusalem Embassy Act'', passed by U.S. Congress in 1995, states that ''"Jerusalem should be recognized as the capital of the State of Israel; and the United States Embassy in Israel should be established in Jerusalem no later than May 31, 1999"''. Since then, the relocation of the embassy from Tel Aviv is being suspended by the President semi-annually, each time stating that ''"[the] Administration remains committed to beginning the process of moving our embassy to Jerusalem"''. As a result of the Embassy Act, official U.S. documents and web sites refer to Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Section 214 of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act, 2003 states: :"The Congress maintains its commitment to relocating the United States Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem and urges the President [...] to immediately begin the process of relocating the United States Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem". [http://www.mideastweb.org/jeruembassy2002.htm] However, George W. Bush has argued that this section is merely "advisory", stating that it "impermissibly interferes with the President's constitutional authority". [http://www.state.gov/m/rm/rls/rm/2002/13888.htm] The U.S. Constitution reserves the conduct of foreign policy to the President and acts of Congress which make foreign policy are invalid for that reason. === United Kingdom position === UK government statement [http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1076522475865] :"In line with the Declaration of Principles of 13 September 1993 and the Interim Agreement of 28 September 1995, both agreed by Israel and the PLO, the Government regards the status of Jerusalem as still to be determined in permanent status negotiations between the parties. Pending agreement, we recognise de facto Israeli control of West Jerusalem but consider East Jerusalem to be occupied territory. We recognise no sovereignty over the city." :"Jerusalem has a unique religious and cultural importance for Christians, Jews and Muslims, and we attach great importance to ensuring access to Jerusalem and freedom of worship there for those of all faiths." ===Arguments for and against internationalization=== The proposal that Jerusalem should be a city under international administration is still made at times by Christians, the only interested party without a large population in the city. (Internationalization is the proposal favored by the Pope.) Most negotiations regarding the future status of Jerusalem have however been based on partition; for example, one scheme would have Israel keep the Jewish quarter and the Western Wall (the "Wailing Wall"), with the rest of the Old City and the Temple Mount being transferred to a new Palestinian state. Some Israelis are opposed to any division of Jerusalem, based on cultural, historic, and religious grounds. Others believe that areas such as the Old City which are sacred to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam should be under international or multilateral control. Palestinians have argued for an open city, though its feasibility has been challenged given the existence of mutual distrust. ==Religious Significance== Jerusalem plays an important role in three Major world religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. === Jerusalem, Jews and Judaism === ==== Jerusalem in Torah and Tanakh ==== Jerusalem has long been embedded into the religious consciousness of the Jewish people. Jews have always studied and personalized the struggle by King David to capture Jerusalem and his desire to build the Jewish temple there as described in the Book of Samuel and his yearnings about Jerusalem which became part of the popular prayers and songs. ==== Jerusalem and the Jewish religious calendar ==== Two major Jewish festivals observed by most Jews conclude with the words: "Next Year in Jerusalem" ("''l'shanah haba'ah birushalayim''") or "Next Year in Rebuilt Jerusalem" ("''l'shanah haba'ah birushalayim hab'nuyah''"): *At the end of the Passover Seder on each night, the night's meal and recitation of prayers about the miracles of the ancient Exodus from Egypt concludes with the loud repetitious singing of "Next Year in Jerusalem". *The holiest day on the Jewish calendar, Yom Kippur, also concludes with the singing and exclamation of "Next Year in Jerusalem". Each of these days has an associated holy text, the ''Hagada'' for ''Pesach'' (Passover) and the ''Machzor'' for ''Yom Kippur'' (Day of Atonement), which stresses the desire to return to Jerusalem. Today, with over a quarter million Jews practicing Orthodox Judaism living in Jerusalem, the Jewish festivals come to life, and result in many synagogues and the Western Wall witnessing tens of thousands of fervent worshipers flooding the Jewish places of worship. [[Image:Second Temple Destroyed.jpg|thumb|Artist's impression of Jerusalem's Second Temple fiery destruction 2,000 years ago by Roman Empire.]] The saddest fast-day on the Jewish religious calendar is the Ninth of Av when Jews traditionally spent the day crying for the loss of their two Holy Temples and the destruction of Jerusalem. This major (24 hour) fast is preceded on the calendar by two minor dawn to dusk fast days, the Tenth of Tevet mourning for the time Babylonia laid siege to the First Temple, and for the tragedy of the Seventeenth of Tammuz when Rome broke through the outer walls of the Second Temple. The words used when Jews console any mourner during the customary Seven Days of Mourning are: :"May God comfort you among all the mourners for Zion and Jerusalem" ==== Jerusalem and prayer ==== [[Image:Building_Aish_HaTorah_Jerusalem.jpg|thumb|Opposite the Western Wall in Jerusalem, at the Western Wall Plaza, a huge yeshiva building used for Torah study and Jewish prayer is built today]] The daily prayers, recited by religious Jews three times a day over the last two thousand years, mention Jerusalem and its functions multiple times. Some examples from the siddur and the amidah are: :(Addressing God): "And to Jerusalem, your city, may you return in compassion, and may you rest within it, as you have spoke. May you rebuild it soon in our days as an eternal structure, and may you speedily establish the throne of (King) David within it. Blessed are you God, the builder of Jerusalem...May our eyes behold Your return to Zion in compassion. Blessed are you God, who restores his presence to Zion." Additionally when partaking of a daily meal with bread, the following is part of the required "Grace After Meals" which must be recited: :"Have mercy Lord our God, on Israel your people, on Jerusalem your city, on Zion the resting place of your glory, on the monarchy of (King David) your anointed, and on the great and holy (Temple) house upon which your name is called...Rebuild Jerusalem, the holy city, soon in our days. Blessed are you God who rebuilds Jerusalem in his mercy, amen." When partaking of a light meal, the thanksgiving blessing states: :"...Have mercy, Lord, our God, on Israel, your people; on Jerusalem, your city; and on Zion, the resting place of your glory; upon your altar, and upon your temple. Rebuild Jerusalem, the city of holiness, speedily in our days. Bring us up into it and gladden us in its rebuilding and let us eat from its fruit and be satisfied with its goodness and bless you upon it in holiness and purity. For you, God, are good and do good to all and we thank you for the land and for the nourishment..." When the Jews were exiled, first by the Babylonian Empire about 2,500 years ago and then by the Roman Empire 2,000 years ago, the great rabbis and scholars of the mishnah and Talmud instituted the policy that each synagogue should replicate the original Jewish temple and that it be constructed in such a way that all prayers in the siddur (prayer book) be recited while facing Jerusalem, as that is where the ancient temple stood and it was the only permissible place of the sacrificial offerings. Thus synagogues in Europe face south; synagogues in North America face east, countries to the south of Israel, such as Yemen or South Africa face north; and those to the east of Israel, face west. Even when in private prayer and not in a synagogue, a Jew faces Jerusalem, as mandated by Jewish law compiled by the rabbis in the Shulkhan Arukh. ==== Customs in rememberance of Jerusalem ==== [[Image:Breaking_glass_by_groom.jpg|thumb|Jewish Jewish view of marriage today, center, with right foot raised, about to break glass cup (covered by a small white cloth) with his right heel, recalling Jerusalem's destruction]] There is a custom practiced by some, prior to when a Jewish groom walks to take his place beneath the bridal canopy, that a tiny amount of ash be touched upon his forehead earlier, so that he not allow his own rejoicing to be "greater" than the ongoing need to recall Jerusalem's fall. The well-known custom of the groom breaking a glass with the heel of his shoe after the ceremony is also related to the subject of mourning for Jerusalem. The groom recites the sentence from Psalms "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget ''her cunning''." (Psalms 137:5). The translation given is from the King James Version, the italicized words are not present in the Hebrew. All traditional Jewish commentators, however, agree with this translation; it was common in Biblical Hebrew to not explicitly express any possible negative consequence. Traditionally, there was an ancient custom to leave a patch near the entrance to one's home unpainted as a remembrance of the destruction (''zecher lechurban''), of the temples and Jerusalem. ==== Western Wall in Jerusalem ==== The Western Wall, in the heart of the Old City of Jerusalem, is generally considered to be the only remains of the Second Temple from the era of the Roman conquests. There are said to be esoteric texts in Midrash that mention God's promise to keep this one remnant of the outer temple wall standing as a memorial and reminder of the past. Hence the significance of the "Western Wall" (''kotel hama'aravi'') - also called the "Wailing Wall" by non-Jews, attesting to their perception of Jews' propensity to cry whenever they came before it. ==== Rabbis and Jerusalem ==== The Talmud records that the rabbinical leader Yohanan ben Zakkai (c. 70 C.E.) urged a peaceful surrender, in order to save Jerusalem from destruction, but was not heeded as the city was under the control of the Zealots. An early expression of the Jewish desire to "return to Zion" is the journey of Yehuda Halevi, who died in about 1140. Jewish legend relates that as he came near Jerusalem, overpowered by the sight of the Holy City, he sang his most beautiful elegy, the celebrated "Zionide" ''Tzion ha-lo Tish'ali'' and that at that instant he was ridden down and killed by an Arab. He was followed by Nahmanides, the ''Ramban'', who, in 1267 emigrated to the land of Israel, and came for a short stay to live in Jerusalem. He wrote that he found barely ten Jews, as it had been desolated by the Crusades, nevertheless, together they built a synagogue that is the oldest that still stands to this day, known as the "Ramban Synagogue". Both Elijah ben Solomon (d. 1797) known as the ''Vilna Gaon'', and Israel ben Eliezer (d. 1760) known as the ''Ba'al Shem Tov'' instructed and sent small successive waves of their disciples to settle in Jerusalem then under Turkey Ottoman Empire rule. They created a Jewish religious infrastructure that remains the core of the ''Haredi'' Jewish community in Jerusalem to this day. The British Mandate of Palestine authorities created the new offices of "Chief Rabbi" in 1921 for both Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews with central offices in Jerusalem. Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook (d. 1935) moved to Jerusalem to set up this office, associated with the "Religious Zionist" ''Mafdal'' group, becoming the first modern Chief Rabbi together with Sephardic Chief Rabbi Yaakov Meir. The official structure housing the Chief Rabbinate was completed in 1958 and is known as ''Heichal Shlomo''. Jerusalem is also home to a number of the world's largest ''yeshivot'' (Talmudical and Rabbinical schools), and has become the undisputed capital of Jewish scholarly, religious and spiritual life for most of world Jewry. === Jerusalem in the Tanakh (Old Testament) === Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Torah and Tanakh, or Old Testament, a text sacred to both Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism it is considered the Written Law, the basis for the Oral Law (Mishnah, Talmud and Shulkhan Arukh) studied, practiced and treasured by Jews and Judaism for three millennia. (List of Jewish Prayers and Blessings). In Christianity, it is considered as the account of God's relationship with His chosen people - the original covenant - and the essential prelude to the events narrated in the New Testament, including both universal commandments (eg the Ten Commandments) and obsolete or Judaism-specific ones. For example, the book of Psalms, which has been frequently recited and memorized by Jews and Christians for centuries, says: (etc.) *"By the rivers of Babylon we sat down and wept when we remembered Zion." (Psalms 137:1) *"For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us ''required of us'' mirth, ''saying'', Sing us ''one'' of the songs of Zion. How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land? '''If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget ''her cunning'' '''. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy. Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase ''it'', rase ''it'', even to the foundation thereof; O daughter of Babylon, that art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that repayeth thee as thou hast served us." (Psalms 137:3-8) (King James Version, with italics for words not in the original Hebrew) *"O God, the nations have entered into your inheritance, they have defiled the sanctuary of your holiness, they have turned Jerusalem into heaps of rubble...they have shed their blood like water round Jerusalem..." (Psalms 79:1-3); *"...O Jerusalem, the built up Jerusalem is like a city that is united together...Pray for the peace of Jerusalem..." (Psalms 122:2-6); *"Jerusalem is surrounded by mountains as God surrounds his people forever" (Psalms 125:3); *"The builder of Jerusalem is God, the outcast of Israel he will gather in...Praise God O Jerusalem, laud your God O Zion." (Psalms 147:2-12) === Jerusalem in Christianity === For Christianity, Jerusalem's place in the life of Jesus gives it great importance, in addition to its place in the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible, as described above. Jerusalem is the place where Jesus was brought as a child, to be 'presented' at the Temple in Jerusalem (Gospel of Luke 2:22) and to attend festivals (Luke 2:41). According to the Gospels, Jesus preached and healed in Jerusalem, especially in the Temple courts. There is also an account of Jesus' 'cleansing' of the Temple, chasing various traders out of the sacred precincts (Gospel of Mark 11:15). At the end of each of the Gospels, there are accounts of Jesus' Last Supper in an 'upper room' in Jerusalem, his arrest in Gethsemane, his trial, his crucifixion at Golgotha, his burial nearby and his Resurrection of Jesus and ascension. Tradition holds that the place of the Last Supper is the Cenacle, on the second floor of the Mosque of the Prophet David (Masjid an-Nabi Daud), with the supposed tomb of David on the first floor. The place of Jesus' anguished prayer and betrayal, Gethsemane, is probably somewhere near the Church of All Nations on the Mount of Olives. Jesus' trial before Pontius Pilate may have taken place at the Antonia fortress, to the north of the Temple area. Popularly, the exterior pavement where the trial was conducted is beneath the Convent of the Sisters of Zion. Other Christians believe that Pilate tried Jesus at Herod's Palace on Mount Zion. The Via Dolorosa, or way of suffering, is the traditional route to Golgotha, the place of crucifixion, and is an important pilgrimage. The route ends at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (perhaps the most holy place for Christians). The Holy Sepulchre is traditionally believed to be the location of Golgotha and Jesus' nearby tomb. The original church was built in 336 by Constantine I. The Garden Tomb is a popular pilgrimage site near the Damascus Gate. It was suggested by Charles George Gordon that this site, rather than the Holy Sepulchre, is the true place of Golgotha. The Acts of the Apostles and Pauline Epistles show James the Just, the brother of Jesus, as leader of the early Jerusalem church. He and his successors were the focus for Jewish Christians until the destruction of the city by Emperor Hadrian in 135. The exclusion of Jews from the new city of Aelia meant that gentile bishops were appointed under the authority of the Metropolitans of Caesarea and, ultimately, the Patriarch of Antioch. Emperor Constantine I and his mother, Helena, endowed Jerusalem with churches and shrines, making it the foremost centre of Christian pilgrimage. The Council of Chalcedon in 451 raised the bishop of Jerusalem to the rank of patriarch, fifth in rank behind Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch. However, Byzantine politics meant that Jerusalem simply passed from the Syrian jurisdiction of Antioch to the Greek authorities in Constantinople. For centuries, Greek clergy dominated the Jerusalem church. In 638, Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem, handed over the keys of the city to Umar ibn al-Khattab's Muslim forces. The relation between the Christian populace and the Muslim authorities in the city appear to have been good (with the one exception of Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah's execution of the patriarch and destruction of the Holy Sepulchre), and Christian artisans were used to build the Dome of the Rock. On 15 July 1099, the army of the First Crusade captured Jerusalem and brutalised its inhabitants. The crusaders showed equal, if not greater, animosity towards Eastern Christianity to that showed against Muslims. Jerusalem became the capital of a 'Latin Kingdom' with a Latin church and a Latin Patriarch, all under the authority of the Pope. In 1187, when Saladin captured the city, the Holy Sepulchre and many other churches were returned to the care of Eastern Christians. From the 17th century to the 19th century, various Catholic European nations petitioned the Ottoman Empire for Catholic control of the 'holy places'. The Franciscans are the traditional Catholic custodians of the holy places. Control swung back and forth between the western and eastern churches throughout this period. Sultan Abd-ul-Mejid I (1839-1861), perhaps out of despair, published a firman that laid out in detail the exact rights and responsibility of each community at the Holy Sepulchre. This document became known as the ''Status Quo'', and is still the basis for the complex protocol of the shrine. The ''Status Quo'' was upheld by the British Mandate and Jordan. After the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, and the passing of the Old City into Israeli hands, the Knesset passed a law protecting the holy places. Five Christian communities currently have rights in the Holy Sepulchre: the Greek Patriarchate, Latins (Western Rite Roman Catholics), Armenian Orthodox Church, Coptic Orthodox Church and Syriac Orthodox Church. The 'New Jerusalem' is the focus of a vision at the end of the Book of Revelation. It is the perfect city where God lives among his people. === Jerusalem in Islam === Muslims traditionally regard Jerusalem as having a special religious status, partly because of its link with people regarded as Prophets of Islam - particularly David, Solomon, and Jesus - and partly because it was the first qibla (direction of prayer) in Islam before the Kaaba in Makka, but also because the "farthest Mosque" (''Al-Aqsa Mosque'') in verse (Al-Isra:1) of the Qur'an is traditionally interpreted by Muslims as referring to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, on which the mosque of that name now stands: : سبحان الذي أسرى بعبده ليلاً من المسجد الحرام إلى المسجد الأقصى الذي باركنا حوله : Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless (Yusuf Ali's translation) On that night, the night of the Isra and Mi'raj (Rajab 27), Muhammad is believed to have been taken by the flying steed Buraq to visit Jerusalem, where he prayed, and thence heaven, in a single night. Many Muslims celebrate its anniversary with gatherings and feasting, although Wahhabis and several other groups take the position that no regular festivals are permissible except the two Eids. According to ''sahih'' hadith - sayings of Muhammad - recorded by Bukhari and others, Jerusalem was the site of the second mosque built on earth, forty years after Mecca, and is one of only three cities to which pilgrimage is permissible, along with Mecca and Medina. Some hadith, less accepted as reliable, also specify Jerusalem (Bayt al-Maqdis) as the place where all mankind will be gathered on the Day of Judgement. The earliest dated stone inscriptions containing verses from the Qur'an appear to be Abd al-Malik's in the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, from 72 AH. After the conquest of Jerusalem by the armies of the second Caliph, Umar ibn al-Khattab, parts of the city soon took on a Muslim character. According to Muslim historians, the city insisted on surrendering to the Caliph directly rather than to any general, and he signed a pact with its Christian inhabitants, the Covenant of Umar. He was horrified to find the Temple Mount/Haram al Sharif being used as a rubbish dump, and ordered that it be cleaned up and prayed there. However, when the Bishop invited him to pray in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, he refused, lest he create a precedent for its use as a mosque. According to some Muslim historians, he also built a crude mosque on the Temple Mount, which would be replaced by Abd al-Malik. The Byzantine chronicler Theophanes Confessor (751-818) gives a slightly different picture of this event, claiming that Umar "began to restore the Temple at Jerusalem" with encouragement from local Jews. In 688 the Caliph Abd al-Malik built the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount, also known as Noble Sanctuary; in 728 the cupola over the Al-Aqsa Mosque was erected, the same being restored in 758-775 by Al-Mahdi. In 831 Al-Ma'mun restored the Dome of the Rock and built the octagonal wall. In 1016 the Dome was partly destroyed by earthquakes; but it was repaired in 1022. In the context of proposals to radically reinterpret early Islamic history, certain Orientalists, such as John Wansbrough, have proposed that Muhammad's Night Journey to Jerusalem - the Isra and Miraj, one of the principal foundations of Jerusalem's sanctity in Islam - was a later invention intended to account for an otherwise obscure verse. Others, such as Patricia Crone, have proposed that Jerusalem was in fact the original Islamic holy city, and that the sanctity of Mecca and Medina was a later innovation. Neither of these controversial theories enjoys wide acceptance, least of all among Muslims. === Jerusalem in Mandaeanism === In Mandaeanism, a small, ancient Gnostic sect still found in southern Iraq, Jerusalem is considered a city of wickedness, dedicated to the god of Judaism, whom they call Adunay or Yurba and consider to be an evil spirit; according to Sidra d-Yahia 54, Jerusalem is "the stronghold that Adunay built... [he] brought to it falsehood in plenty, and it meant persecution against my ''tarmidia'' (Manda d-Hiia's disciples)." In the Ginza Rba (15.11), it is said to have come into being as a result of the incestuous union of the seven planets with their evil mother Ruha d-Qudsha, who "left lewdness, perversion, and fornication in it. They said: 'Whoever lives in the city of Jerusalem will not mention the name of God.'" (Elsewhere, however, it more prosaically says the city was built by Solomon.) However, Yahya (John the Baptist), an important figure in the religion, is said to have been born there. Later on, in the days of Pontius Pilate, it says the good spirit Anush Utra went there, healed the sick and worked miracles, and made converts, confronting Jesus (whom they consider a false prophet) and refuting his arguments; but its inhabitants opposed him and persecuted the converts, 365 of whom were killed (GR 15.11) or forced out (GR 2.1.) Miriai, a Jewish or Chaldean princess, was converted, and fled to the shores of the Euphrates. This angered Anush Utra, who received permission from God to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, smash the "seven columns", and slay the Jews who lived there, after bringing out the remaining "believers". Elsewhere, the Ginza Rba (18) prophesises that Jerusalem "must flourish for a thousand years, remain a thousand years destroyed, and then the entire Tibil (material world) will be destroyed." In the Abahatan Qadmaiia prayer, repeated during baptism of the dead, the Mandaeans invoke blessings upon the 365 who they believe were killed or forced out of Jerusalem: : "Those 365 priests who came forth from the city of Jerusalem, the city of this ''masiqta'' and ''dukhrana'', a forgiveness of sins may there be for them." == Geography and Demography == ===Geography=== Jerusalem is situated in , upon the southern spur of a plateau the eastern side of which slopes from 2,460 ft. above sea-level north of the Temple in Jerusalem to 2,130 ft. at the southeastern extremity. The western hill is about 2,500 ft. high and slopes southeast from the Judean plateau. Jerusalem is surrounded upon all sides by valleys, of which those on the north are less pronounced than those on the other three sides. The principal two valleys start northwest of the present city. The first runs eastward with a slight southerly bend (the present Wadi al-Joz), then, deflecting directly south (formerly known as "Kidron Valley," the modern Wadi Sitti Maryam), divides the Mount of Olives from the city. The second runs directly south on the western side of the city, turns eastward at its southeastern extremity, then runs directly east, and joins the first valley near Bir Ayyub ("Job's Well"). It was called in olden times the "Valley of Hinnom," and is the modern Wadi al-Rababi, which is not to be identified with the first-mentioned valley. A third valley, commencing in the northwest where is now the Damascus Gate, ran south-southeasterly down to the Pool of Siloam, and divided the lower part into two hills (the lower and the upper cities of Josephus). This is probably the later Tyropoeon Valley. A fourth valley led from the western hill (near the present Jaffa Gate) over to the Temple area: it is represented in modern Jerusalem by David Street. A fifth cut the eastern hill into a northern and a southern part. Later Jerusalem was thus built upon four spurs.Today, neighboring towns are Bethlehem and Beit Jala at the southern city border, and Abu Dis to the East. === Neighborhoods, places and monuments === * ''See: List of places in Jerusalem'' Jerusalem has a large number of places of religious and historic significance including the Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and Church of the Holy Sepulchre, among many others (See ''Religious Significance'' above). It is also home to a number of key Israeli government buildings, including the Kenesset and Israeli Supreme Court, and Israeli institutions, including Hebrew University. === Demographics === ''See the Demographics of Jerusalem'' When it first appears in historical records, Jerusalem was inhabited by a Canaanite tribe. The Bible specifies them as the Jebusites, and says they ruled it until its conquest by King David. After taking control of it from the Canaanites, Jews formed the majority of the population of Jerusalem until its destruction by Rome in the second century. Following that, the city's historical demographics were uncertain, although it probably became a majority Muslim city by 1525. By the late 19th century, Jews were again a majority. According to the current official census as of 2003, Jerusalem's population was 693,200 people, of which 464,500 (67.0%) were Jews and 228,700 (33.0%) were non-Jews (Note that this number is for the expanded municpality of Jerusalem as claimed by Israel). == Jerusalem Today == === Mayors and Government === ''See the List of mayors of Jerusalem'' The current mayor of Jerusalem is Uri Lupolianski, member of the local United Torah Judaism faction and the first Haredi Judaism Jew to attain this position in the city. === Museums === * The Israel Museum * The Rockefeller Museum. * The Ticho House. === Transportation === [[Image:View_of_Jerusalem_(small).jpg|right|thumbnail|200px|A view of the Old City of Jerusalem taken from the Jewish Cemetery on the Mount of Olives.]]Begin Boulevard is Jerusalem's inner city expressway. It goes North to South from Atarot to Malcha. The Jerusalem Central Bus Station is Jerusalem's intercity bus bus station. It is served by Egged and Dan Bus Cooperative buses. City buses are are run by Egged. Israel Railways operates train service to Southern Jerusalem with 2 stops: The Biblical Zoo and Jerusalem Malcha near the Malcha Mall. In 2009, there will be a new high speed train line from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem which will terminate at a new underground station under construction underneath the Jerusalem Central Bus Station. There are future plans to extend the line from the Jerusalem Central Bus Station to the current Jerusalem Malcha Train Station, the terminus of the current historic (now upgraded) railroad. Atarot Airport is Jerusalem's airport but it is currently not in use due to the security situation. == Born in Jerusalem == *Saint Angelus (Catholic saint) *Fathi Arafat (physician) *Suha Arafat (public figure) *Mili Avital (actress) *Yosef Avni (activist) *Chaim Joseph David Azulai (author) *Elisha Ben Abuyah (heretic) *Saeb Erekat (politician) *Yuval Gabay (drummer) *Mordechai Gur (general) *David Grossman (author) *Tzahi Hanegbi (politician) *Amira Hass (journalist) *Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni (commander) *Amin al-Husayni (public figure) *Eliahu Inbal (orchestral conductor) *Flavius Josephus (historian) *Yousef Al-Khalidi (politician) *George Khouri (victim) *Isaac Luria (scholar and mystic) *Raphael Maklouf (sculptor) *al-Muqaddasi (geographer) *Nathan (son of David) (prince) *Yitzhak Navon (president) *Sari Nusseibeh (academic) *Amos Oz (author) *Natalie Portman (actress) *ibn Qudamah (Islamic jurist) *Yitzhak Rabin (politician) *Edward Said (literary theorist) *Adin Steinsaltz (religious scholar) *Sirhan Sirhan (murderer) *Ayelet Waldman (author) *William of Tyre (archbishop) *Yigael Yadin (archeologist) *A. B. Yehoshua (novelist) *Eli Yishai (politician) *Munib Younan (bishop) *Nissim Zeev (politician) == See also == * Jerusalem syndrome * Timeline of Jerusalem * List of Holy Cities == External reference and links == ===Official Site=== *[http://www.jerusalem.muni.il/jer_main/f1_main.asp?lng=2/ Official website of the Municipality of Jerusalem] ===Photographs=== * [http://haqaonline.lightuponlight.com/pg/thumbnails.php?album=19 Pictures of the Mosques in Jerusalem] * [http://www.jerusalem-archives.org/index1.html Jerusalem archives], historical photographs of Jerusalem focusing mainly on the experience of the Jews. * Portal of [http://www.jerusalemshots.com/en Jerusalem Photos] ===Maps=== *[http://www.usm.maine.edu/~maps/exhibit1/ University of Maine Historical Map Collection], features European, Arab, and Jewish maps of the city dating back over 600 years. Highlights the role of Jerusalem in the history of map-making. ===Status of the City=== *[http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1980_1989/Basic%20Law-%20Jerusalem-%20Capital%20of%20Israel Basic Law: Jerusalem, Capital of Israel, Government of Israel], the Israeli law making Jerusalem the capital of Israel. *[http://www.pna.gov.ps/Jerusalem/index.asp Palestinian position on Jerusalem] from the Palestinian National Authority *[http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/jerutoc.html Jewish Position on Jerusalem] ===History=== * [http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/jerusalem/ History Channel site on the history of Jerusalem] *[http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/jeruhistoc.html Articles on the history of Jerusalem] from the Jewish Virtual Library *[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2001/israel_and_the_palestinians/issues/1682594.stm BBC article on Jerusalem] ===News and Media=== * [http://www.jpost.com The Jerusalem Post], oldest and largest Israeli daily newspaper in English, previously the Palestine Post. * [http://www.jmcc.org/ Jerusalem Media and Communications Centre], group of Palestinian reporters with daily news reports from East Jerusalem ===Institutions=== * [http://www.alquds.edu/index.php Al Quds Arab University of Jerusalem] * [http://www.huji.ac.il/huji/eng/ Hebrew University of Jerusalem] * [http://www.yadvashem.org/ Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial] * [http://www.imj.org.il/ Israel Museum] ===Books=== * Wasserstein, Bernard (2002). ''Divided Jerusalem: The Struggle for the Holy City''. New Haven and London: Yale University Press. ISBN 0-300-09730-1. Capitals in Asia Jerusalem Holy cities bn:জেরুসালেম fa:اورشلیم ga:Iarúsailéim la:Hierosolyma lv:Jeruzāleme simple:Jerusalem
ARCHIVED TALK ABOUT JERUSALEM AS CAPITAL OF ISRAEL, Talk:Jerusalem/capital Talk:Jerusalem/Archive 1 | Talk:Jerusalem/Archive 2 ==Sheesh== \\\\\Much of the discussion below could be avoided by noting that there is some question as to the legitimacy of Israel. If one accepts Israel as being legit, them there is a q of Jerusalem as a legitmate terrritory, let alone capital, thereof. Further anyone can say anyhing they want, like NYC is the capital of Israel, it certainly has claims upon the title, or Washington DC is the capital..., or Hollywood... but the more certain rules are by establishing a proper definition..., and authorities where the senses fail. Some say it's the capital because it once was, on the authotity of the Gaseous Invertrabrate War God Of the Bronze Age ( GIWGOBA ), that's good enough for many but not all. So J is a disputed capital of I, or I says J is the capital of..., or many Zionauts and fellow travellers say... etc is as far as one can go without sacrificing credibility to those who care about such things.//// To use a Middle Eastern expression, sheesh! All we need to say is: * Israel regards Jerusalem as its capital, although hardly any other country recognizes it as such. * The seat of the Israeli government is in Jerusalem. * The X, Y, Z & Q embassies are in Jerusalem, reflecting official recognition by those countries that it is Israel's rightful capital. * The other N embassies are in Tel Aviv, because these countries do not want to be seen as "recognizing" Jerusalem as Israel's capital. We can also say: * Two elements fuel the controversy. * Many countries dispute Israel's claim to all of Jerusalem, regarding parts A, B & C as occupied territory. For these countries, to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's captial would be to legitimize Israel's claim on "occupied territory". * Some countries or nationalistic movements regard Jerusalem as the rightful capital of Palestine -- not of Israel. --User:Ed Poor 12:19, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) I ''strongly'' object to the first point in this proposal. It suggests that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is merely the POV of Israel, and that the question is disputed. As I succesfully argued above, this is not a POV issue, but a matter of factual accuracy, which should not be compromised. Saying "Jerusalem is the capital" would also eliminate the need for the second point. Details of which countries base their embassies where are not important enough to get in to the first pargraph. There's much (much!) more to Jerusalem than a list of embassies. User:Uriber 12:30, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Sorry, but I don't know any other way of putting it. Unless you want the more cumbersome: :According to Israel and 4 other countries, Jerusulem is the capital of Israel. In an odd turn of events, Israel is the only country in the world whose capital is not recognized by the world community at large. This is largely because... --User:Ed Poor 12:56, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) Except this is, in addition to being cumbersome, also false. You assume here that any country not basing its embassy in Jerusalem actually does not recognize it as capital - which is of course not true (see the US example). Anyway, as I said (many!) times before, the first paragraph should not focus on the diplomatic formal concept of "recognition" (mainly, because there is no such concept when it comes to capital - see Zero's comments), but rather on the factual status of Jerusalem - namely, it being capital. Once again, there is no dispute here. No-one, throughout this entire discussion has claimed that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is false (i.e., that it is not the capital), or even provided evidence that anybody on earth believes that it is false. There is simply no dispute that Jerusalem ''is'' the capital of Israel - and therefore this fact should be clearly noted in the first few sentences of the article, as it is for any other capital. Isuues of "recognition", disputes about "legitimacy", and visions about the future should all be explained later, after stating the undisputed facts. User:Uriber 13:07, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Ed replies: Don't get me wrong, Uriber. I personally believe that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. But some Arabs dispute this, particularly those calling themselves "Palestinians". ::Please provide at least one quote of anybody (be that Palestinian or other) saying "Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel", with reasonable justification. (People saying "Jerusalem should not be the capital of Israel", "Jerusalem being capital of israel is illegitimate", etc. don't count, ofcourse) User:Uriber 14:06, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) *The Council for the Advancement of Arab-British Understanding (CAABU) discovered that Harper Collins' 2002 reprint of their "Mini Atlas of the World" states on pages 136/7 that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel despite the fact that the UN and the international community has never recognised Jerusalem as Israel's capital. [http://www.caabu.org/campaigns/atlas.html] *The publishers have stated that it will add a footnote against Jerusalem where it appears in country listings, which will state "De facto capital. Disputed". [http://www.mediareviewnet.com/Publisher%20agrees%20not%20to%20name%20Jerusalem%20as%20capital%20of%20Israel.htm] ::This was brought up before (you ''did'' read the entire discussion before jumping into this, right?) Anyway - as I said when it it was first brought up, it proves nothing. Harper Colins' are commited to keeping everybody happy (and ultimately, to their sales figures) not to NPOV. User:Uriber This short article sounds neutral, but check it out and see for yourself: http://www.centerpeace.org/factsheets/fact-sheet-jerusalem.htm ::From this article: ''"Jerusalem is [...] claimed as its capital by two peoples - Israelis and Palestinians."'' Is this even English? Anyway, it clearly deals with "claims", not with the current factual status of Jerusalem - so it is more-or-less irrelevant to the question at hand. User:Uriber 14:06, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :::Claims are entirely relevant to the discussion. It is not the place of Wikipedia to decide the factual status of Jerusalem, but the report the fact that one group claims X, one group claims Y, etc. That's exactly how Wikipedia:NPOV works. We can argue till we're blue in the face over whether "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is true fact, false fact, or opinion, but there should be no argument at all with the ''fact'' that "The government of Israel considers Jerusalem to be its capital," and "Palestinians dispute the claim of Israel to Jerusalem." The fact that these people claim these things is indisputable and well-documented. User:Jdavidb 20:38, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) Oh, and "sheesh" is not a Middle Eastern expression. To the best of my knowledge, it's an Eastern European Jewish expression. :-) User:Uriber 14:06, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :If I provide enough baksheesh to the right party, can I make "sheesh" a Middle Eastern expression? Okay, you're obviously right about ''that''. And I agree that Jerusalem is Israel's capital -- because I recognize any nation's right to designate any of its cities as its capital. :But did you know that a certain group (hint: starts with A) (a) ''disputes'' Israel's claim to Jerusalem (can't designate what you don't "have") and (b) has managed to get all but a handful of the world's nations to go along with them (clever devils, aren't they?). ::None of them claim that Israel does not ''have'' Jerusalem. All they say is that Israel ''should not'' have Jerusalem - which is their POV and they are entitled to it. However the facts (as opposed to what ''should'' be) are not disputed - Jeusalem ''is'' Israel's capital. User:Uriber 15:21, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Now, between you and me this dispute may sound as silly as the flat earth theory, but to be both accurate and NPOV shouldn't we say something about the dispute? --User:Ed Poor 15:09, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::No, the dispute over the ''future'' of Jerusaelm is not silly. It is very serious. However, the dispute about the ''present'' status of Jerusalem (which is what we are concerned with here) simply does not exist. And I have no problem mentioning (and even discussing in depth) the disputes that ''do'' exist. But only after the facts are laid out. User:Uriber 15:21, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) Sounds like there are two issues here, which I conflated into one. #Whether or not Jerusalem is the capital of Israel -- a matter of fact #Whether or not various nations recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel --User:Ed Poor 19:16, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) I think you got it backward. Whether or not various nations recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is a fact. Whether or not Jerusalem is the capital is an opinion. User:Anthony DiPierro User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning 21:17, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :To Ed: Exactly! That's what I'm trying to explain to people here for the last couple of months. By treating those questions separately, we can give clear and simple answers to both of them: Israel is the capital of israel, but most governments don't recognize it as such. Now that you got it, will you help me set this straight in the article? User:Uriber 21:43, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) Uriber, whether or not East Jerusalem can be considered a part of Israel is certainly disputed. As such, it is also disputable whether Jerusalem can be the "indivisible" capital of Israel... User:John Kenney 21:35, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I never suggested using the word "indivisible" in the article. So what's your point here? User:Uriber 21:43, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) Well, the official position of Israel is that ''Jerusalem'', not ''West Jerusalem'' is the capital of Israel. No other country in the world recognizes East Jerusalem as being part of Israel. So ''Jerusalem'' (as opposed to ''West Jerusalem'') can't be the capital of Israel unless we recognize East Jerusalem to be part of Israel. BTW, if you say "Jerusalem ''is'' the capital of Israel, but most governments don't recognize it as such," then that means you're saying that those governments are ''wrong''. How is that NPOV? User:John Kenney 23:17, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Sorry for the late reply - I somehow missed this before. :I previously explained in length why saying "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" does not imply that "all of Jerusalem is indisputably part of Israel". Go back to the archives, and read what I said. :"West Jerusalem" and "East Jerusalem" are basically historic concepts. None of them exists as a separate entity today, and therefore none of them can be capital of any nation. :If I would say "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but most people think it is not" - than I would be saying that most people are wrong - which is obviously not NPOV. I explained previously in detail the difference between an individual (or a collective) holding a belief (or having a POV) on a subject, and, on the other hand, the formal concept of "diplomatic recognition" - which is unrelated, and does not imply any POV. Again - look in the archives if you want details. User:Uriber 19:18, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) *I can certianly believe I missed something, and if this has been brought up, forgive me, I don't mean to butt into the discussion, but Israel declared jerusalem something like its "Eternal and undivided" capital (I think in 1950). As far as I know, theres nothign to stop Israel from declaring western jerusalem as it's capital, it's the inclusion of the rest of it, the occupied territories part - that problematic, and denied by other countires. User:Datepalm17 ---- ==Capital== The problem here is that nobody has defined capital. The page given is a circular definition (capital is the seat of government, seat of goverment is the capital). Define seat of government. User:Bensaccount 23:19, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) Seat of government is the location of the government. - Wikipedia Now the real question is where is Israel's government located. User:Bensaccount 23:23, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :To quote the article: "All the branches of Israeli government (Presidential, Legislative, Judicial, and Administrative) are seated in Jerusalem". User:MyRedDice 23:28, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) By the way, capital is not identical with seat of government. Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands, but the seat of government is The Hague. User:John Kenney 23:31, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) You are on the wrong page. Go to capital or seat of government. User:Bensaccount 23:33, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) God you're obnoxious. User:John Kenney 23:53, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) I'm Wiktionary:Objective. User:Bensaccount 23:57, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) Jerusalem IS the capital of Israel every book on countries i read since i was five years old stated that!--User:Plato 01:01, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC) ---- ==Government== A government is an organization that has the power to make and enforce laws for a certain territory. - Wikipedia ---- ==Regarding Martin's compromise== I accepted Martin's suggestion ("under Israeli law") before. I deeply regret doing so - this is an awful solution, not much different than the one I was fighting against to begin with. However, I did accept it (what was I thinking?), and I feel it would be wrong of me to remove it now if it's put up again. However, this applies only to the exact phrasing as it was in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Jerusalem&oldid=3058572 this] edit - including the fact that the capital issue was on the first paragraph. I regard myself free to actively object to any other formulation (even if only different by a comma), and to replace any such phrasing by one which I find to be more correct. User:Uriber 23:21, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I've moved the capital issue into the first paragraph. User:MyRedDice 23:28, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I'm interested in why you so deeply regret accepting my compromise. From what you said, I thought your only issue with it was wordiness? What have I failed to understand? User:MyRedDice 23:31, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::For a much better answer than the one I gave you below (a few hours ago), please see my response to Slrubenstein's suggestion, further below User:Uriber 13:58, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::Because the convoluted wording sends a strong message to the reader that Jerusalem is somehow not "really" the capital - the same way e.g. London is. Think - would you accept "London is the capital of the UK under British law, and functions as capital"? It sounds silly, and makes you look for some hidden message ("why don't they just say it's the capital, then?"). Since Jerusalem is the capital of Israel in exactly the same manner that London is the capital of the UK, I can't really be happy about and formulation which I wouldn't find acceptable for London. User:Uriber 08:33, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::Also, the suggested wording implies (perhaps not as strongly as other suggested formulations, but still) that Jerusalem being capital of Israel is a matter of POV. Throughout this entire discussion, nobody actually presented evidence that "Jerusalem is the Capital of Israel" is, in fact, disputed (e.g., a quote from someone saying "Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel"). What's the point of successfully arguing, if you then have to give in and compromise? I have a natural tendency to try and compromise when I'm faced with someone with obvious good intentions (such as you). But looking at the end result later, I realized that compromising on this issue (to such a degree as I did) was wrong. Goodwill should not be allowed to supersede good arguments - which those opposing to "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel (period)" have none of. User:Uriber 09:51, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :One more thing - Uriber, would you consider "Under Israeli law, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" (IE, reverse the order), or would that be as unacceptable as the "According to Israeli law, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" phrasing favoured by Wik which you disapprove of? ::I'm afraid I won't accept it. Just like "accordnig to...", it puts the emphasis on a phrase which appears to be limiting the sense in which Jerusaelm is the capital, instead of on the main fact - that it ''is'' the capital. This might look like a silly distinction, but since the "capital under Israeli law" formulation is already at very edge of what I'm willing to accept (actually, several inches beyond that edge), I'm not willing to move any further away from what I think is the most correct formulation ("Jerusalem is the capital of Israel."), which is also NPOV. User:Uriber 08:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Another thought that occured to me was writing "Under Israeli law, Jerusalem is the eternal and indivisible capital of Israel". I'm not sure how well that would fly - probably not so well. User:MyRedDice 23:43, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::As you suspected - this is even worse. The article isn't about Israeli law. It's about Jerusalem. User:Uriber 08:38, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::: Ok, thanks for all your responses. User:MyRedDice 21:30, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Capital is a location of lawmaker issue. There is no law I am aware of that says thay Jerusalem is a capital (prove me wrong). So you would not say "under Israeli law, its the capital", but rather "As the location of the government, Jerusalem is the capital."User:Bensaccount 23:52, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) (minor semantics really) :I disagree that location of the government is the sole determining factor for being the capital, in all senses of that word. User:MyRedDice 00:25, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::You are on the wrong page. If you want to discuss what determines a capital go to capital. Currently it is just location. User:Bensaccount 02:45, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::: Mote, eye, log, eye. User:MyRedDice 21:28, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :::That's absolutely ''not'' what it says. Note: ''It may consist of or be separate from the actual seat of government.'' Thus, Amsterdam. No one would contest that Jerusalem is Israel's seat of government. User:John Kenney 23:19, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) There is an Israeli law which says that Jerusalem is its capital. User:John Kenney 23:54, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) Does it say that the government cannot legally leave Jerusalem? User:Bensaccount 00:14, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I may be back later. User:Bensaccount 00:15, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :: From the article, there is a 1980 Israeli law claiming Jer. as Isr.'s "eternal and indivisible capital". User:MyRedDice 00:25, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::What a ridiculous law. User:Bensaccount 02:50, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) I don't like the phrasing where the disputed point about the capital is placed before the sentence on who actually controls the city. Whether or not Jerusalem is the capital is trivia compared to which country exerts control over it. But in the interests of getting a stable version of the beginning text, I'll leave it unless someone else edits it first. User:Anthony DiPierro User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning 10:02, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) : Thanks Anthony. User:MyRedDice 21:18, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ==Proposal by Slrubenstein== May I propose the following introduction to the article? :Jerusalem (Hebrew Language: ירושלים ''Yerushalayim'', Arabic language: القدس ''al-Quds'') is located at (latitude, longitude) and has a population of 630,000. It is the largest city in, and official capital of Israel, although the status of the city under international law is unsettled. Jerusalem consists of an Old City, itself divided into Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Armenian Quarters; a New City; and a surrounding district. After the break-up of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, Great Britain controlled Palestine through a mandate of the League of Nations. From 1923 to 1948 Jerusalem was the capital of Palestine. When the United Nations recommended a partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab State, it recommended that Jerusalem be an international city, although both Jews and Arabs claimed it. After the declaration of a cease-fire in 1948, Jews controlled the New City and declared it their capital; Jordan occupied and annexed the Old City. During the Six-Day War Israel occupied the Old City. In 1980 Israel declared a unified Jerusalem its capital, although in Resolution 478 the United Nations Security Council censured Israel’s act and declared it null and void. Under Israeli law; it serves as the country's seat of government and otherwise functions as capital, but most countries maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv. I have tried to follow the format used in Wikipedia for other cities, while calling attention to Jerusalem's contested situation. User:Slrubenstein I don't think you will have much luck with this paragraph due to the ongoing argument over the bolded sentence. It still has not been decided on this page what determines that a city is a capital. User:Bensaccount 13:15, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::Here's my take at the paragraph attempting to fix the bolded sentence, which some regard as a problem (thanks, Uncle Ed, for your sheesh post which suggested this change): :::Jerusalem (Hebrew Language: ירושלים ''Yerushalayim'', Arabic language: القدس ''al-Quds'') is located at (latitude, longitude) and has a population of 630,000. It is the largest city in Israel, which regards the city as its capital, although the status of the city under international law is unsettled. Jerusalem consists of an Old City, itself divided into Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Armenian Quarters; a New City; and a surrounding district. After the break-up of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, Great Britain controlled Palestine through a mandate of the League of Nations. From 1923 to 1948 Jerusalem was the capital of Palestine. When the United Nations recommended a partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab State, it recommended that Jerusalem be an international city, although both Jews and Arabs claimed it. After the declaration of a cease-fire in 1948, Jews controlled the New City and declared it their capital; Jordan occupied and annexed the Old City. During the Six-Day War Israel occupied the Old City. In 1980 Israel declared a unified Jerusalem its capital, although in Resolution 478 the United Nations Security Council censured Israel’s act and declared it null and void. Under Israeli law; it serves as the country's seat of government and otherwise functions as capital, but most countries maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv. ::Meanwhile, let me again say that it is not for Wikipedia to decide what is and is not a capital, but merely to report the claims of various groups. User:Jdavidb 20:52, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I've looked over the talk page and earlier versions of the article and see no explanation of why Jerusalem is not the official capital of Israel. What is your definition of "capital?" Do you propose changing the articles on Rome and Paris? User:Slrubenstein You underestimate the importance of knowing what a capital is before writing about one. I have searched on google and I can't find any useful definitions of capital. The wikipedia definition is actually the best out there. (Britannica and Encarta have no page for capital). OneLook produces hundreds of dictionary entries that seem to all define capital vaguely as the "seat of government". Wikipedia says that a capital is the seat of government but sometimes the seat of government is seperate from the capital. (huh?). User:Bensaccount 13:53, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Slrubenstein, while I'm sure you mean well, I do not think that seeking a compromise solution is the correct way to go in this case (although I have cooperated with such efforts before - only to regret it later). Before we decide on exact phrasing, etc., we have to answer one question: Is Jerusalem the capital of Israel? This might have three different answers: #Yes #No #The matter is disputed, i.e. some people believe it is the capital, while others believe it is not the capital. If we reach the conclusion that the correct answer is 3, then we should seek some formulation stating all POVs on the matter, or concentrate on laying down the very basic facts, avoiding the question altogether. This is where compromises might be useful. If, however, we reach the conclusion that the correct answer is 1 (as I believe is the ultimate outcome of the discussion going on here for the last several months), there should be no further objection to simply saying "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" (while of course later describing disputes regarding sovereignty, diplomatic status, etc.) User:Uriber 13:41, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Geez Uriber. Do you really think that everybody on earth believes Jerusalem is the capital of Israel? Well, let's end this argument here and now. I DO NOT BELIEVE JERUSALEM IS THE CAPITAL OF ISRAEL. There. Now I have proven that teh correct and logical answer is 3. I don't want you throwing arguments at me about why it really IS the capital, because you aren't going to change my opinion. The fact of the matter is, NOT EVERYBODY BELIEVES JERUSALEM TO BE THE CAPITAL OF THE MODERN STATE OF ISRAEL. If you really must say it IS the capital of Israel, we should say it is the capital of Palestine as well because Palestinians lay similar claims to the city as their capital. Hell, we even have an article regarding why some people think Kyoto is the capital of Japan instead of Tokyo, even though there are far fewer people who think that than people who believe Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. And, as mentioned earlier, seat of government is NOT the sole determinant of a nation's capital, eg The Hague vs. Amsterdam in the Netherlands, or cases where there is more than one seat of gov't such as South Africa (I believe Durban is the location of the judicial branch, Johannesburg is the location of the... oh crap, nevermind)... so HAH! - User:Node ue :But urbier, that's not correct. Wikipedia editors are not to concern themselves with deciding the facts of the matter, but only reporting the various views. Wikipedia does not need to decide if Jerusalem is or is not the capital; only what people's views are. So Wikipedia should report: :#Some people (group A) believe Jerusalem is the capital :#Why group A believes Jerusalem is the capital :#Some people (group B) believe Jerusalem is not the capital :#Why group B believes Jerusalem is not the capital :#Why group B rejects group A's reason for believing Jerusalem is the capital :#Why group A rejects group B's reason for believing Jerusalem is the capital :#Group C's beliefs, reasons, etc. as above, if applicable, etc. :#The fact that many Wikipedians are fed up with the whole argument. :) :There is no need to answer the question "Is Jerusalem the capital of Israel," and, in fact, answering the question is irrelevant because you can't report it in the article. See Wikipedia:NPOV User:Jdavidb 20:46, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) I don't think you know what a capital is. User:Bensaccount 14:01, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Personally I believe "1," although my understanding of the UN resolutions is that the legal issues is ''not'' whether or not Jerusalem is the capital, but rather, what are the territorial boundaries of the Israeli city, "Jerusalem?" (in other words, the New city can be Israel's capital, but Israel has no right to annex the Old City). In any event, since many people dispute Israel's capital, an NPOV article must acknowledge what you have as "3." And this is exactly what I did in the part of my paragraph that Bensaccount bolded. Jerusalem is the capital; its status is unsettled -- these are both facts. So I do not see the problem, yet. Can you and Besnaccount be clearer? User:Slrubenstein I don't think you know what a capital is. User:Bensaccount 14:01, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Hmmm. I don't think you know what a capital is. But that is neither here nor there. This is an article on Jerusalem. I went to the Jerusalme webpage and it describes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. I went to the Israel webpage and it says that it's capital is Jerusalem. I went to the webpages of Rome and Paris and London, and they all identify these cities as "capitals," so I know that Wikipedia articles are concerned with identifying "capitals." That is ALL that I need to know to write this encyclopedia article. This is an encyclopedia. Perhaps you should check the various community portal pages on what Wikipedia is and is not. This is not a forum for personal essays or primary research; it is simply not appropriate to depate political or philosophical issues here. User:Slrubenstein :::In other words you are telling me to get lost because you want to fight with Uriber about something you both know nothing about. User:Bensaccount 14:23, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :"In other words?" No, stick to the words I use -- I didn't say "get lost." I said that this is an article on Jerusalem, and should conform as best possible to other Wikipedia articles on cities. Wikipedia always mentions in the first paragraph when a city is a capital city. Jerusalem is Israel's capital city, so we must mention that. Since there are disputes concerning the status of Jerusalem, we should also mention that. You are concerned with "what a capital is." If you are concerned with this, great! Do some research on different kinds of capitals, and the legal traditions concerning the designation of capitals, and work on the article "capital!" Don't "get lost," I encourage you to do the serious research Wikipedia needs. But if you are interested in learning more about the idea of "capital," go work on the appropriate article!User:Slrubenstein ::I dont care what a capital is. You need to, because you are arguing about it. User:Bensaccount 14:48, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::Please explain what you mean when you say "many people dispute Israel's capital". Does it mean "many people believe that Jerusalem is not Israel's capital (excluding people who believe this as a result of simple ignorance or misinformation)"? Had it been so, I would have agreed that the correct answer is "3", and that there is a NPOV issue. However, I do not think that this is what you mean. What you mean is that many people think something like "Israel has no right to have Jerusalem as its capital". That's a fair statement 9false, but fair) - however, it has nothing to do with the question I presented - and so it leaves that question undisputedly answered "Yes". And the fact that the UN resolution deals with territorial boundaries, not the question of capital, just goes to strenghthen my point about the capital issue being undisputed. User:Uriber 13:55, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) I'd say the answer is 2. If the vast majority of the countries in the world don't recognize the city as the capital, then it's not the capital. User:Anthony DiPierro User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning 01:19, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) How can you write about a capital if you havent defined what a capital is? User:Bensaccount 13:59, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) For Bensaccount -- interesting theoretical question, worth considering on some other page (where you can consider Wittgenstein and other philosophers of language). The fact remeans, people ''do'' talk about words without defining them, and manage to communicate quite effectively. If you do not understand how, take a philosophy or linguistics course. You may use words without defining them but you definately do not communicate effectively. In fact you do not communication at all. User:Bensaccount 14:05, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :When I see you raising this point on the pages for Rome, Paris, London, etc., I will take you seriously. ::For those pages the capital definition which I currently have created is sufficient. (see Seat of government). You cant argue that the meaning of words is not necessary for their use. Its absurd. User:Bensaccount 14:16, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) For Uriber, I understand your point and that you are trying to be systematic and constructive. nevertheless, I think you are going off on an unnecessary and onconstructive tangent. In my proposal, I wrote "It is the largest city in, and official capital of Israel, although the status of the city under international law is unsettled." Is this in your view a false statement? User:Slrubenstein :It is not a false statement. However, it is an incomplete one (because it only emphesizes Jerusalem's ''official'' status as capital, pushing off the very important fact that it is also the capital ''in practice'' to the very end of a very long introduction). I also believe that the factual correctness of information presented is not the only criterion by which a text should be judged, and that the manner in which this information is presented is important as well. If you systematically avoid saying "Jerusalem is the capital" (which is the standard wording on articles about other capitals), then at least some readers will get the impression that in some way, Jerusalem is not the capital (even if this is not explicitly said anywhere). User:Uriber 14:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Thanks -- this is a reasonable response. Does this mean that you would accept the paragraph I proposed, if I delete "official?" User:Slrubenstein :Yes, I would happily accept it. I have some aesthetic reservations regarding having so detailed historic information in what is supposed to be an introduction paragraph - but this is a matter of style, not something I'd go to war over. User:Uriber 15:16, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) For Uriber, you dont have to answer Slurbenstein because he doesnt know how to communicate. User:Bensaccount 14:09, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :You will have to fogive me for respectfully disagreeing with you, and answering Slurbenstein in spite of your giving me permission not to do so. User:Uriber 14:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) To Slrub: "official" is ''ok'', but I think it's a little vague. I prefer "under Israeli law", which is more precise. Also, where you write "Under Israeli law; it serves as the country's seat of government and otherwise functions as capital" - in this sentence, I don't believe the qualifier "under Israeli law" is required. I prefer the current formulation, all in all. To Uriber: I think you're missing an option to the question "Is Jerusalem the capital of Israel?" My answer would be "It depends what you mean by that". It is the capital under Israeli law. It is also the capital in practice. It may or may not be the capital under international law (I don't think we ever got a firm answer on that). It's not the internationally recognised capital. It's disputed whether Jerusalem is possessed by Israel, as "capital of Israel" implies by use of the possessive tense. So there are many layers here, and it's not a simple yes or no answer. By way of contrast, London is the capital of the UK under international law, is internationally recognised as such, and everyone agrees that the UK possesses London. So, for London it's much simpler, and thus "London is the capital of the UK" is trickier. User:MyRedDice 21:34, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ==Rearrangement== I moved around some of the sections, so that new readers will have a more pleasant -- and less jarring -- experience. If they want to use the Table of Contents link to skip down to the juicy, er, controversial part, they are free to do so. Also, I did a word count, and the big "history of Jerusalem" section is roughly 50% of the article. Anybody want to move that to History of Jerusalem? --User:Ed Poor 13:39, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :No, the "rearrangement" is completely unacceptable. Mentioning that Jerusalem is capital under israeli law, etc. in the introduction paragraph was an important part the agreement I reached with Martin. User:Uriber 14:44, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) : Agreed - that Jer. is (in many senses) the capital of Isr. is worthy of an early mention. User:MyRedDice 21:35, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ==Summary== Uriber wants to write one thing about Jerusalem as capital. Slurbenstein wants to write another thing about Jerusalem as capital. I find it interesting to see how these kinds of conflicts get resolved which is why I am here. There are several pathways that are possible if progress is to be made: #One person steps down for no reason. #A vote is held #One of you proves your point of view by presenting your argument based on the definition of capital. In my mind the only fair way is option 3. User:Bensaccount 15:03, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Example for option 3: When King Solomon built the Temple on Mount Moriah, Jerusalem was sanctified and became the international religious center of the Jewish people. Solomon also built his palace, the city was fortified, treasure houses were built, as were markets and palaces for the king's wives. It was largely due to the many wonderful buildings that Jerusalem became one of the world's most beautiful cities during this period. Furthermore, economic prosperity during Solomon's reign consolidated Jerusalem's position as an important city, the capital of Israel in the eyes of many nations. (Moving foreward by trying to define what makes a capital). User:Bensaccount 15:06, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) I do not commit myself to that definition of capital by the way. User:Bensaccount 15:07, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Your account above does not explain why Solomon built his temple on Mt. Moriah. Also, why is your account a better explanation of why Jerusalme is Israel's capital, than the fact that the Website for Israel names Jerusalem its capital? By the way, if it isn't clear to you, when the article says Jerusalem is Israel's capital it means the modern state of Israel, not the Ancient Kingdom of Israel! User:Slrubenstein Again, this is an attempt to determine what makes a capital. So when you ask the question "why is your account a better explanation of why Jerusalme is Israel's capital, than the fact that the Website for Israel names Jerusalem its capital?" That is exactly the point im making, (what determines a capital).User:Bensaccount 17:18, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :A capital is a center of important activity. In states, the most important activity is governance. However, in some states (e.g. some kingdoms) the "capital" is wherever the King's court is, and the king's court moves from palace to palace. In many states, especially republics, the political capital is fixed. Since law is a function of governance, usually only the political capital is official (this is the case with Jerusalem) -- the economic capital is evident (the city with the largest port, manufacturing, or financial sectors). Some countries have two capitals -- political and economic. In some states the political capital is divided (the representative branch is seated in one city, the executive branch in another (In Israel, all branches of government are seated in Jerusalem). In societies with official religions there can be a religious capital as well, although in many states the religious, economic and political capital are the same. So it varies from state to state and time to time. User:Slrubenstein Well anyways it seems that it has been agreed upon that Jerusalem is the capital (Its too bad that the only result from all this discussion that points towards towards this conclusion, is what you just said, but I guess explaining after resolution is better than resolving and never explaining why. Just dont tell me it was never an issue.). If this issue rearises that last point you made will be the only outcome from this discussion that helps, since the still hasn't been formally defined in the article. User:Bensaccount 17:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :No, it has not been agreed upon. We cannot let the article become the basis for someone to say, "According to Wikipedia, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel". Because that would mean we were taking sides in a dispute. ::I'm deeply saddened that you are still holding this view. You did not respond to my request to provide some evidence that such a dispute exists. I for one very much hope that the article ''will'' become the basis for someone to say, "According to Wikipedia, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel". Because that would mean that that someone had learned something from Wikipedia - something that is not disputed, but that a surprising number of people do not know. User:Uriber 18:08, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Now, don't get me wrong: I'm on the same side. But as an editor I have to acknowledge that there is a dispute. Don't try to sweep it under the rug. It makes the rug lumpy, and eventually it will start to rot and make a big stink. --User:Ed Poor 17:55, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Well, Ed, what do you think of the version I proposed above? You didn't comment on it (or haven't, yet).User:Slrubenstein By the way, Ed, even in jest don't say "crazy Arabs and their sick puppy friends." It's a very unconstructive attitude. Also, it is my sense that the only Arabs who do not recognize Jerusalem as capital of Israel are those who do not recognize the State of Israel. The really divisive issues for many Arabs, including those who accept the existence of Israel, is not whether or not Jerusalem is the capital but rather Israel's unlawful annexation of East Jerusalem. User:Slrubenstein :I took back that crack. Sorry. :I like the phrasing of ''It is the largest city in, and official capital of Israel, although the status of the city under international law is unsettled'' better than ''It is the capital of Israel''. --User:Ed Poor 18:10, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::largest city [...] in Israel? That's even worse! Now Wikipedia would REALLY endorse the view that the whole of Jerusalem is part of and/or belongs to Israel! -- User:Dissident :Well, I thought that the context made your point clear. But how about "Including areas occupied by Israel, it is ...?" User:Slrubenstein ::Take a look at the third paragraph. -- User:Dissident 19:31, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) (User_talk:Dissident) :Okay, but every other article on a major city has the population in the first paragraph. This seems reasonable, and in this case relative uniformity of style in an encyclopedia makes sense. User:Slrubenstein ==Jerusalem as capital of Israel== Is it disputed that Jerusalem is the capital of israel? Its hard to tell (despite the endless discussion that seems to be about it).User:Bensaccount 20:35, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Based on what has currently been said (and what is given in Wikipedia), the following questions define whether or not Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. #Is Jerusalem the city or town that contains the government of Israel? #Is Jerusalem a center of important activity in Israel? User:Bensaccount 21:16, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Based on what has been said so far, #Jerusalem does contain the government of Israel. #Jerusalem is a center of important activity. Therefore the capital of Israel is Jerusalem. User:Bensaccount 21:34, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) : I wouldn't put any faith in Wikipedia as a source on the matter. Anyone can edit it. Madness. User:MyRedDice 21:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::If you dont have any faith in Wikipedia why are you here? User:Bensaccount 21:39, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) : Because it won't always be this abysmal. User:MyRedDice 21:40, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) I dont see what you are getting at. Are you suggesting that some other source is used to define capital (politics) and this page be based on that? Wouldn't it make more sense to base it on something that is in Wikipedia? User:Bensaccount 21:43, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :No one disputes that Jerusalem is the de facto capital of Israel. What is in question is whether it is its de jure capital; by Israeli law, of course, it is, but whether it is by international law is highly questionable. In particular, East Jerusalem has never formally been annexed by Israel (according to Christians for Israel: http://www.c4israel.org/articles/english/e-c-00-3-kort-judicialjerus.htm ), and thus remains not a part of Israel by international law (even independent of any questions about the legality of such an annexation.) This means that de jure, at most, West Jerusalem can be described as the capital; in practice, most nations' legal position is that Israel's de jure capital is still Tel Aviv. Of course, as Bensaccount suggests, this throws into question which factor should be taken as primary in defining "capital"... - User:Mustafaa 21:55, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::Hi Mustafaa, nice to see someone new here. I'm afraid you are presenting the information from the article you provided in a somewhat misleading way. It is true that Israel does not officially use the term "annexation" for describing the change in the status of East Jerusalem in 1968 - because you can only "annex" something which formerly lawfully belonged to a different country - and Israel never recognized any foreign sovereignty over any part of what used to be the British Mandate on Palestine. So officially what Israel did was "applying the It's laws, jurisdiction and administration". However, by doing so, Israel brought it to the same official status of the rest of Israeli territory (including West Jerusalem). So the difference in terminology has to do only with the previous status of East Jerusalem (before the "annexation" / "applying of jurisdiction and administration") - not with its status afterwards. So De jure, all of Jerusalem ''can'' be described as the capital. User:Uriber 22:27, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :::"De jure" depends on who has stated the law. User:Bensaccount 22:34, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Finally some progress. Jerusalem contains the Israeli government and is a center of activity in Israel. Israeli law states that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but Jerusalem is not stated as the capital of Israel by international law. User:Bensaccount 22:13, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I don't believe that International Law deals with the question of which city is capital of what country. Please provide some reference to prove that it does. User:Uriber 22:30, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I agree with Uriber. Please tell us an example of a city that is "stated by international law" to be the capital of any country. --User:Zero0000 22:35, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::I am not here to research. If noone can state for sure how international law deals with Jerusalem as capital: Jerusalem contains the Israeli government and is a center of activity in Israel. Israeli law states that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. User:Bensaccount 22:42, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :::OK, I can't seem to find any references for international law affecting capitals per se; my assumption was that if the territory in question is not legally part of Israel, it cannot therefore legally be its capital, but I don't actually know of any legal principle explicitly preventing a capital from being, indeed, entirely outside the country of which it is the capital if it so desires - anomalous as that would be. That's not to say no such principle exists: IANAL... Unless someone does know the details of international law on that, I'm fine with the current compromise.User:Mustafaa 23:41, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) : To Ben: well that's what the intro already says: : # Jer. is capital under Isr. law. : # Jer. is de facto capital. : Seems you're just rephrasing what we already have? However, what we already have is a somewhat fragile consensus, so I don't think it should be replaced without agreement (IE, I agree with Uriber again). ::I realize thats what it says. It said that before it was decided why it should say that. I just filled in the reasoning. User:Bensaccount 00:14, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) : I think the point about international law and the position of the UN is important enough that we perhaps shouldn't say "Jer. is the capital", but not so important that it needs to be in the intro. : ''Personally'', I have decided I would be willing to accept "Jerusalem is the Israeli capital (but see Jerusalem#Status_as_Israel's_capital)". I think "Israeli" (an adjective) is ''much'' better than "Israel's" (possessive tense). However, I can't speak for Anthony or Wik on this. User:MyRedDice 23:10, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::How about "Israel made Jerusalem its capital, but..."? -- User:Dissident 23:46, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::: Well, that has the possessive, which I dislike unattributed in this case ("its"). Also, I doubt that that will satisfy Uriber - it only deals with the de jure bit, not the de facto bit (both are worth mentioning, IMO). User:MyRedDice 23:57, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Shouldn't it be mentioned that the Palestinians claim Jerusalem as their capital too?User:AndyL 00:29, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) ==Change by Wik== Wik changed "under Israel's law" to "claimed by Israel". This is a step in the wrong direction, making the statement less clear. (Claim means demand capitals arent defined by demands). User:Bensaccount 01:07, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) And yet, Wik is so pro-government when it comes to the Indonesian (Islamic) occupation of West Papua (Christian), he even disputes the known English name is ''West Papua'' and moved the article to Papua (Indonesian province) where it would be so easy to find (not), or confused with Papua_(disambiguation) the Island instead; not to mention how he keeps replacing the West Papuan Genocide with a re-direct. A new meaning to the term NPOV I suspect. ;-)User:Daeron 11:32, 8 May 2004 (UTC) ==Testimonials== Not bad, compare with http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761572316/Jerusalem.html. User:Bensaccount 00:46, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) Uriber's version of 09:03, 7 Apr 2004 is an excellent compromise and has my support. --User:Zero0000 09:17, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) I can also accept the phrase "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel under Israeli law", but just ''barely''. Consider this to be an ''extremely hard-fought'' compromise. -- User:Dissident 09:56, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) :You might compare this formulation to *China considers Taiwan a breakaway province, not a seperate country. :Even thought the ROC has been holding its own national elections for more years than I can count! --User:Ed Poor 12:24, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::Well, China may consider them to be provincial elections instead. :-) -- User:Dissident 18:34, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) ==Palestinians and Jerusalem as capital== Do Palestinians really "aspire" that Jerusalem become their capital? User:Bensaccount 16:56, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) "Claim" really is more accurate User:AndyL : I note that different approaches seems to have been taken in other controversial cases: Laayoune is described as the "unofficial capital" of Western Sahara, Jaffna as the "cultural capital" of Sri Lankan Tamils, Taipei as the "provisional capital" of Taiwan, and "The capital of Somaliland is Hargeisa". Western Sahara strikes me as the nearest parallel, as Laayoune has been under Moroccan control and annexed by Morocco (under Moroccan law, at any rate) ever since Spain left. But "unofficial capital" doesn't have the right ring to it, to my ears; if anything, it's more the official capital (as enshrined in PLO declarations, etc.) than the unofficial one. User:Mustafaa 18:02, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) How did West Germany describe Berlin before unification? Bonn was the capital of West Germany but Berlin was always considered the "real" capital but I foget the language that was used/User:AndyL :Was it "titular capital"? That sounds familiar... - User:Mustafaa 19:55, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) The "also" in this sentence is incorrect. Saying also requires similarity.User:Bensaccount 17:30, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) ==Number of countries which dispute the sovereignty== Wik wrote, in an edit summary: :most countries dispute Israeli sovereignty over either the entire or the eastern part of the city Please list (or at least count) these countries, and supply a source. --User:Ed Poor 18:03, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) :See List of countries, minus Costa Rica and El Salvador. --User:Wik 18:13, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC) ::Ha, ha. Do you think US and UK dispute Israeli ''de jure'' sovereignty over Jerusalem? Also, there's a difference between (a) "hasn't made a statement in support of" and (b) "has made a statement disputing". --User:Ed Poor 18:31, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) :::Of course they do, otherwise they would have their embassies there. --User:Wik 18:42, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC) ::::I doubt that's the reason, considering the close alliance between the three nations. The reason, at least I think, is that Jerusalem is volatile enough, and many Palestinians would consider a U.S embassy there a serious affront. I mean, not like the U.S. cares what Palestinians think or say, but I guess it's just a fear of controversy and possible violence. --User:Tothebarricades.tk 02:38, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC) ===A newspaper article=== :A dispute over the future of Jerusalem is at the heart of the Israeli- Palestinian conflict. Divided by barbed wire into Israeli and Jordanian rule in 1948, it was reunited under Israeli sovereignty as a result of the 1967 Six-Day war. Israel claims the entire city of Jerusalem as its eternal, indivisible capital. The Palestinians want at least the eastern part of the city to become the capital of a future state. Most countries of the world have never recognized Israel's right to Jerusalem. More than a dozen withdrew their embassies to Tel Aviv in protest in 1980 when Israel enshrined its claim in law. Only three Latin American countries now have their embassies here - Costa Rica, Bolivia and El Salvador. [http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=%5CForeignBureaus%5Carchive%5C200106%5CFor20010613b.html] Just to make clear that West Jerusalem is almost equally disputed, I may note that even before the 1980 decision, only thirteen countries had their embassies in Jerusalem: Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, the Netherlands, Panama, Uruguay, Venezuela. All of them moved to Tel Aviv after the UN Security Council resolution, although Costa Rica and El Salvador moved back to Jerusalem in 1984. --User:Wik 18:18, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC) :All of them, eh? What about Bolivia? According to the cns news article Bolivia currently has its embassy there. But you said "all of them" moved to Tel Aviv. Did you mean "all but Bolivia" or what? ::The article is mistaken. Bolivia's embassy now is at Mevaseret Zion, which is a suburb of Jerusalem but outside the city limits. --User:Wik 18:40, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC) ==Why this issue is so hard== Each side wants to justify its own aspirations. Israel wants sovereignty over ALL of Jerusalem. Various groups of Arabs want: #sovereignty over PART of Jerusalem #sovereignty over ALL of Jerusalem One may suppose that to concede (or "recognize") Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem would hurt Arabs' chances of getting ahold of it themselves. Refusing to recognize Israel's claim to the city is part of a public relations campaign aimed at getting other countries to pressure Israel into ceding control of it. (I think this strategy used to be called "land for peace", although I haven't looked at that article for a while.) --User:Ed Poor 18:19, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) : There are only about 20 Arab countries out there - a drop in the bucket compared to the 200 or so that don't recognize Israeli sovereignty over East Jerusalem. - User:Mustafaa 18:24, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) Here is another quote about the sovereigty of Jerusalem. From the National Institute for Technology and Liberal Education (NITLE): :Even Jerusalem, the city Israel claims as its capital, remains an area of dispute. Predominantly Jewish West Jerusalem has been part of Israel since independence in 1948; Israel captured mostly Arab East Jerusalem in 1967. Israel has since claimed the entire city as its capital. However, the United Nations does not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital. [http://www.nitle.org/arabworld/map.php?module_id=4&country_id=12] Nobody's posted a comment here in two millenia, er, weeks! Does that mean the "capital" issue has been settled to everyone's satisfaction? --User:Ed Poor 19:13, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC) :The way this issue has been "settled" is completely unacceptable, and I'm anything but satisfied with it. My deep disappointment at this result, and the process that led to it, is the reason I've stopped making edits to Wikipedia for the last couple of weeks, and why I probably won't be coming back any time soon. User:Uriber 21:24, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC) I inserted the NPOV note. As I said earlier, I consider this case a litmus test for WP. See what half-a-dozen of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jerusalem/capital#What_do_other_sources_say? other encyclopedias] say in the first phrase. Not a single compromise was acceptable here. So let's pick one option out of two: WP is either biased or neutral. --User:Humus sapiens|User talk:Humus sapiens 05:32, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC) == According to vs Under == I prefer "Under Israeli law" to "According to Israeli law", as it is shorter, and makes more sense (laws have jurisdictions, hence "under", while people have opinions, hence "according to"). So I've gone back to that wording. User:MyRedDice 21:41, 2 May 2004 (UTC) :"Under" is not restrictive enough. It suggests that Israeli law is all that is necessary to make it capital. "Under Israeli law, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is like "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Israeli law makes it so." On the other hand, "according to" makes it clear that it is just one view (according to Israeli law, it is the capital; according to others, it isn't). --User:Wik 14:27, May 3, 2004 (UTC) :: OK - I can understand that, even if I'm not convinced myself. Thanks for explaining. User:MyRedDice ::: I am really not convinced. We're back a step. Jerusalem IS the capital of Israel from Israel's point of view, but since Israel controls Jerusalem it is UNDER Israeli law a capital. The next sentence - about the disputes shows the other points of view. If nobody replies to my claim I am going to change the "according to" back to "Under". ---- FYI: [http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1064571767798 British official position on the status of Jerusalem] == Occupied == Talk:Israel#Occupation is about whether the current situation should be described as "occupation", not the situation in 1948 and 1967. "occupied" is a good word choice. "gained control" is a clumsy alternative, in context. User:MyRedDice 20:50, 6 May 2004 (UTC) ==Psalms== I've seen the translation of the Psalms under Jerusalem#Importance_of_Jerusalem_to_Jews_and_Judaism change a number of times. I feel that the most recent, rather large change has been for the worse. Can we agree that the general meaning of the Psalm is more important than the literal translation, and that denoting what individual words are added by the translator to achieve the proper meaning is unimportant? If nobody objects, I'd like to change it back to before User:209.135.35.83 modified it. I see what they're trying to do, but I don't feel that they've added anything and the old version flows better. : I don't mind what translation is quoted, but it should be a published (and named) one, not one off the top of somebody's head. I agree that "cunning" has changed its meaning in modern English, but I don't think that's a major argument against the King James Version. In the original, the KJV does indicate words not present in the original, with ''italics''; perhaps we could add those? - User:Mustafaa 18:33, 7 May 2004 (UTC) ::What's wrong with using the King James and then saying it's the King James? It's prettier. User:John Kenney 19:15, 7 May 2004 (UTC) ::Good call on the using a published version. Looks good. Now do we need to get God's permission to use that text, or what? --User:Caliper 20:20, 7 May 2004 (UTC) Does you hand have cunning? Neither does mine (21st century). Words change meaning over centuries. The King James Version is near and dear to many; its what the Bible is suppposed to sound like....unfortunately meanings of many of the words using the KJV have changed. cunning has negative connotations that are not in the original...does it take cunning to play the piano...playing piano (that skill) or whatever skills or movements one has (typing?) are the meaning of the verse. There are other significant ''concerns'' and ''issues'' regarding the KJV that are either well known or easily accessible to one fluent in the original langagues. I imagine (certainly hope...well looks like that is missing from KJV page) that they are throughly discussed in a page on the KJV at wikipedia The User:209.135.35.83 version is ''The Metsudah Tehillim'' copyright 1997, KTAV publishing....perhaps not the best, but it is a nice bilingual version that I keep at hand. == United States position == I've clarified the section on the US position. Since the US Constitution grants only the President the power to make foreign policy it's misleading for us to write that US law makes Jerusalem the capital of Israel - no part of an act which is contrary to the US Constitution is US law. If someone can think of a short and non-misleading piece to go at the start of the current status section, that would be good - nothing succinct enough and still not misleading occurred to me. User:Jamesday 23:38, 25 May 2004 (UTC) :Where does it grant the president exclusive power to make foreign policy? - User:Nat KrauseUser_Talk:Nat Krause 04:40, 26 May 2004 (UTC) ''The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.'' ? User:John Kenney User_talk:John Kenney 04:46, 26 May 2004 (UTC) ::Well, not that it is worthwhile for us to debate this much, but I don't see how this says anything about foreign policy that it doesn't also say about domestic policy. - User:Nat KrauseUser_Talk:Nat Krause 06:09, 26 May 2004 (UTC) :My understanding is that that line is just a blanket statement so that when required, the President can respond to issues that don't have time to pass through congress and the senate. I suppose that insofar as there is no law concerning how the United States feels about Israel, this may be considered the president's perogative, but I don't think it says that anywhere specific. --User:Caliper 04:59, 26 May 2004 (UTC) Well, the point is that there ''is'' a law, but that it has not been put into effect because the executive branch says it's unconstitutional. User:John Kenney User_talk:John Kenney 05:19, 26 May 2004 (UTC) I'm confused by this line: ''The United States Jerusalem Embassy Act, passed by Congress in 1995, states...'' Was this bill signed into law by President Clinton? An act of Congress does not become law without presidential approval. User:Funnyhat 01:42, 23 May 2005 (UTC) == View of Jerusalem == why does it say in the wikitext not to change this to a thumbnail in the imagesyntax? It will look much better. --User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason/ User talk:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason/ [ Bjarmason] User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason/ 21:35, 2004 Sep 8 (UTC) --------- I consider the world to be given to ME by GOD, So get out of my world. The Rastafarians consider themselves to be the true jews and white people evil, so Jerrytown belongs to them, but then the Palestinians consider it Palestinian. Some say opinions are like 'a' holes, everyones got one, but one should avoid taking opinion, especially possesive (a hole), opinions as truth. == City of David == This article states that there is archeological confirmation of the biblical story of King David. But the article on King David states: >Biblical minimalists hold that David and his united kingdom never existed, and that the stories told about his life were made up much later by Jewish nationalists. Others consider him a real historical figure, but like King Arthur, consider most of the traditions relating to him to have more myth than substance. >The details of David's life given in this article come from the Hebrew Bible and are not corroborated by other historical documents. However, an ancient inscription found at Tel Dan is generally considered to refer to a king of the "House of David", providing indirect evidence that David did exist as a historical king. --User:Sentience 00:49, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC) ==Jerusalem in Christianity?== The article has a brief section on Jerusalem in Islam (and now, after an afternoon at the library, Mandaeanism), and a huge section on Jerusalem in Judaism; shouldn't somebody more knowledgeable about it than me add a section on Jerusalem in Christianity? It does have a certain religious importance to Christians, right? ;) - User:Mustafaa 23:19, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC) For one thing, most of the Torah, Tanakh, and Psalms section is also applicable to Christianity; possibly the section headings should reflect that - User:Mustafaa 17:09, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC) I suggest the following replacement text: :Jerusalem in Torah and Tanakh / Old Testament :Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Torah and Tanakh, or Old Testament, a text sacred to both Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism it is considered the Written Law, the basis for the Oral Law (Mishnah, Talmud and Shulkhan Arukh) studied, practiced and treasured by Jews and Judaism for three millennia. (List of Jewish Prayers and Blessings). In Christianity, it is considered as the account of God's relationship with His chosen people - the original covenant - and the essential prelude to the events narrated in the New Testament, including both universal commandments (eg the Ten Commandments) and obsolete or Judaism-specific ones. :For example, the book of Psalms, which has been frequently recited and memorized by Jews and Christians for centuries, says: (etc.) Any thoughts, objections (since this is a controversial article after all)? - User:Mustafaa 19:35, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC) ==Edward Said was NOT born in Jerusalem== See, for example, http://www.meforum.org/article/191, (full article mirrored at http://members.tripod.com/arabterrorism/FAQ/said.html). And at least try to come to talk and see if we'll vet your propagandistic lies before changing the article. Thanks! - User:Loweeel 15:52, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC) :The Edward Said article says that he was born in Jerusalem. I've left a note on that talk page for evidence of this, and have always thought it to be true. The consensus should be reached on that talk page rather than here. I reverted the change because it didn't make sense to contradict Wikipedia: either both articles should say he was born in Jerusalem, or both should say that he was born in Cairo. User:Garzo 16:02, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::Try looking at the talk section on his page (right above the section where you posted), as well as the articles I posted here. - User:Loweeel 16:21, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::: Er, yes. Even the obviously propagandistic article Loweeel links to states that "I discovered many interesting points: that Said was in fact "born in Jerusalem," but only because his parents feared hygienic conditions in Cairo hospitals after their previously born son died of an infection within days of his delivery." So this is certainly settled. - User:Mustafaa 08:00, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Yerushalyim or al Quds first? == The article currently has the Arabic name (al Quds) first, then the Hebrew name (Yerushalayim). Since the Hebrew name is older, and is the origin of the English name Jerusalem, wouldn't it make sense for the Hebrew name to go first? User:JayjgUser_talk:Jayjg 21:21, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Yes, I agree with you: the Hebrew name should come first, followed by the Arabic name. --User:Garzo 21:59, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::The person who made that edit said he was doing it because of alphabetical order. There was a similar edit on the Golan Heights article where you put the category "Geography of Israel" ahead of "Geography of Syria" because of alphabetical order as well. We shouldn't have a double standard here, either every thing is in alphabetical order or there's another way.Yuber 01:22, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::Definitely User:Kuratowski's Ghost 22:01, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::But, the geography categories are not subject to these philological considerations and respective historicity. Drawing such linear parallels as standard of a measurement for npov, is likely to result in an awkward product, with a superimposed neutrality, leading and leaning towards inaccuracies. User:El C 02:52, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) I disagree. With the current claims and controversy over the city, alphabetization is an unassailable neutral methodology. --User:AladdinSE 15:30, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC) :Historical age of the terms, and root of the English word, are also unassailably neutral. The consensus is against your unilateral change, please respect it. User:JayjgUser_talk:Jayjg 17:45, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::I can appreciate your point, ASE, but I think, ultimately, it's a poor methodological approach: the risk of adhering to arbitrary models (such as alphabetization) is a pandora's box which would harm the quality of the final product (even though in terms of inter-editorial conflict and the rivalry of worldviews it can be seen as possessing great benefit). And, of course, this isn't to say there isn't a role for it to play when philological considerations are not an issue (such as the geography categories Yuber mentioned). User:El C 03:07, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC) I think this is all moot. The article's name Jerusalem comes first, and Names of Jerusalem is in chronological order of names (and, in each section, in chronological order of languages adopting a form of that name). Maybe it's better just to replace the names with a link to Names of Jerusalem, which was written with all this in consideration, along with comments. With a topic this complex with no simple answers, it seems like a wise move. - User:Gilgamesh 05:40, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC) : I'm sorry, EL C, you lost me. Most of that was quite over my head. Once again, please, in language a mere mortal can comprehend :-) Alphabetization is an excellent standard in most cases and is especially significant in, as you say, inter-editorial conflict. Jayjg: Please stop claiming consensus in edit summaries. As you can plainly see there is division of oppinon and the matter remains under discussion. Gilgamesh: The Names of Jerusalem article is already named and linked in the article, it's important and appropriate. However mentioning different language spellings of names in intro sections is pretty standard in Wikipedia, I think they ought to stay. --User:AladdinSE 21:46, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC) ::The article is titled "Jerusalem" the name by which the city is known in English. The name comes from Hebrew so the Hebrew forms come first. The name of the city in most languages is a form of the word "Jerusalem". It is questionable if the anomalous Arabic name Al-Quds should even appear in the list let alone be first. User:Kuratowski's Ghost 22:40, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::: Ok that is just pure bias shining through clearly in your comment. The city is disputed between Arabs and Jews. Moreover Arab East Jerusalem is considered internatioally, and without exception, as occupied territory where Israeli annexation has been utterly rejected. Alphabetical listings are a good idea in any case, and in cases where there is dispute and controversy it is essential. --User:AladdinSE 00:08, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC) ::::The city is known as "Jerusalem" in English, this name comes from the Hebrew which is the main reason for listing the Hebrew name and its pronunciations. Putting Al-Quds first and then the Hebrew does not make any sense, because it isn't even a form of the name "Jerusalem" let alone the origin of the name. Al-Quds is mentioned only because of the significant Arabic speaking population who use this name which is unrelated to the name Jerusalem. User:Kuratowski's Ghost 00:24, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC) We are now beginning to repeat ourselves. Putting the Arabic first makes perfect sense because it is alphabetical, which is especially important in a disputed setting. Your points about the root of the word is better suited for inclusion in the Names of Jerusalem article. --User:AladdinSE 08:13, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC) Let's see if we can clean this up a little: Summary: For Jerusalem, Yerushalayim, al-Quds: * Historical order * Etymological consistancy * Ruling Government's self-identified name For Jerusalem, al-Quds, Yerushalayim * Alphabetical Aladdin, I understand why you argue that the name is controversial, which may be a reason to reject the third arugment above. Nevertheless, what are your objections to the first two arguments? Do you really think that the neutrality of the alphabet is better than the neutrality of the etymology, or of the historical names? User:Mikeage 04:02, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) : Short answer: Yes. Long answer: "We were here first" is not a valid encyclopedic classification. Listing the Arabic and Hebrew spellings in alphabetical order does not alter the history of the city, which is clearly laid out in the article. It is not etymologically inconsistent to use alphabetical listing. It would be etymologically inconsistent if the Hebrew spelling/script was omitted. --User:AladdinSE 12:52, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC) I'd like to add to Mikeage's list for for "Yerushalayim, al-Quds": * The name used by the majority of the city's population. I think this is really the deciding factor here. The "native" names (those given in parenthesis after the English name of cities) should reflect the name of the city used by those living in it. If there is more than one such name, the name used by the majority should prevail. Political claims should have nothing to do with it. Cf. Shefa-Amr, where the Arabic name comes before the Hebrew one, despite the undisputed Israeli sovereignty. User:Uriber 16:01, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) : Please remember that the legality of East and West Jerusalem as one jurisdiction is universally rejected by the UN and every nation in the world as illegal and null & void. The same universal consensus considers all Israeli settlement in ''East Jerusalem'' to be illegal, just as settlement in any territory captured in 1967 is considered illegal. Shefa-Amr is an excellent example of how alphabetical order is neutral and encyclopedic. --User:AladdinSE 05:12, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) ::I wish you would actually address my argument instead of getting into the question of "legality of East and West Jerusalem as one jurisdiction", which is completely irrelevant here. If you'd follow the history of the Shefa-Amr article, you'll see that it has nothing to do with alphabetical ordering. Also, you are clearly in the minority here, and I wish you'd respect consensus and stop reverting the article. User:Uriber 09:24, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Alphabetical order seems to be the rule of thumb around here (but maybe I'm wrong?), is there a policy page that formally says so (or not)--User:198 05:54, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) : By the "alphabetical logic", the order in almost all the disputed places will have to be changed into Arabic first. I think we should be consistent. The historical order seems the most logical for historical articles. User:Humus sapiens←User:Humus sapiens←User talk:Humus sapiens 05:59, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) :: ahh so where would this article fit? Alpha or Historical?--User:198 06:09, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::: IMHO, this is an article about a city of Jerusalem and its history. User:Humus sapiens←User:Humus sapiens←User talk:Humus sapiens 06:52, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Actually no, this is an article about the city of Jerusalem, the title says nothing about the history, nor in fact, about its transportation or infrastructure etc. The article is overlong, and it may be advisable to start creating some sub articles along those lines to reduce this article to code. The point is, history of the city is not the primary emphasis, and cannot be used to overrule a neutral alphabetical order of other-language scripts. Even if history ''was'' the emphasis, like in a proposed "History of Jerusalem" article (which currently re-directs to this Jerusalem article), alphabetical order would still be the prime neutral method of listing the non-English scripts and spellings of the name. Alphabetical is a good idea as a standard, it is ''essential'' in a disputed setting. --User:AladdinSE 08:12, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) : This article and this city is all about history. ''"Alphabetical is a good idea as a standard, it is ''essential'' in a disputed setting."'' - as long as Islamic supersessionism comes out first. If we apply the principle of consistency throughout the WP (and I think we should be consistent), this new "standard" will change the order in almost all the disputes into Arabic first, except where preceded by Amharic. There is no dispute that Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism and only the 3rd in Islam. Why don't we go by that criteria? User:Humus sapiens←User:Humus sapiens←User talk:Humus sapiens 09:37, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) :: You show your clear bias in this case, and illustrate better than I could have done why a neutral alphabetical order is essential. It's not about "holiest in Judaism" and "only third holiest in Islam." What about Christian Palestinian residents of occupied East Jerusalem?? They don't matter at all to you I suppose. Religious connections and levels of holiness are all extremely subjective and divisive. You cannot determine an order of listing on that basis. --User:AladdinSE 22:03, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) ::: Is it corect that Arabic word "Quds" comes from Hebrew "Qodesh"? User:Humus sapiens←User:Humus sapiens←User talk:Humus sapiens 08:05, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::: You would have to ask a linguist. --User:AladdinSE 09:26, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC) Isn't there too much or enough real fight over Al-Quds-Jeruzalem-Yerushalyim in this world? Since 2003, I now and then follow this page, and the fight seems never ending. In many cases, as this Jeruzalem fight, it's about futile issues. Can't we just agree on things here? I think btw: alphabetical order seems fine to me.. and then I mean: alphabetical order of the name.. not the language's name or any other concept to make it more complex. Let's stick to the KISS_principle people! --User:Irsjad 11:44, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) :Being that this is the English version Wikipedia, it makes most sense in my view to first give the name from which the English name, Jerusalem, is most closely derived. That would be "Yerushalayim". --MPerel_">User:MPerel ( talk">user_talk:MPerel | contrib">Special:contributions/MPerel) 16:21, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
:: The sovereignty of this city is hotly disputed, with the entire world declaring that half of it is occupied, and that post-1967 Jewish settlement in that half is illegal. The neutral way of listing the non-English scripts is alphabetical. There is no reason not to include an etymological note about how the English name came into use, however. If that is your concern, insert one. --User:AladdinSE 22:03, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
:::Alphabetical is not "neutral"; rather, it is "abitrary" (and silly). There is a significant difference between the two; it does not escape notice that your version of "neutrality" would inevitably put the Arabic name of every single Israeli city first. As for Jerusalem, Yerushalayim is by far the older name, the one which the English name is based on, and the name preferred by a large majority of its inhabitants. User:JayjgUser_talk:Jayjg 23:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:::Aladdin, listen to yourself, must every article become a soapbox? You make a statement that "the entire world" declares thus and such and then you really believe you are being reasonable and working toward consensus and neutral language in these articles? --MPerel_">User:MPerel ( talk">user_talk:MPerel | contrib">Special:contributions/MPerel) 23:34, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
I don't give a fig whether the order is alphabetical or historical, but I urge all concerned in this silly revert war to avoid reverting to Kuratowski's Ghost's unquestionaly non-neutral phrasing "(Modern Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim, Biblical and trad. Sephardi Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַםִ, known in Arabic as القدس al-Quds". - User:Mustafaa 23:18, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:Right. That version is non-neutral; I hadn't noticed the change. User:JayjgUser_talk:Jayjg 23:30, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
::Oh please, there is nothing non-neutral about it, it makes more sense than listing al-Quds with Modern, Tiberian and Sephardi Hebrew forms of the word Jerusalem as if it too were a form of the word. User:Kuratowski's Ghost 00:00, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:::Well, the Tiberian etc. nonsense has been removed as well. An un-named editor went on a spree a few months ago, trying to insert the reconstructed "Tiberian" form of Hebrew into dozens of articles. At the time the battle to stop it wasn't worth it, but it is now slowly being cleaned up. User:JayjgUser_talk:Jayjg 01:59, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I was going to ask about the other Hebrew scripts and their relevance and why they were being deleted etc, but that has just been answered. Now some quick responses, although we are now definitely repeating ourselves. "Majority of the inhabitants" does not apply in this case. Israeli sovereignty over occupied East Jerusalem is not recognized, and Israeli settlement there after 1967 is illegal. To claim alphabetical order as silly is ridiculous, considering how widely it is used in all manner of listings. MPerel: Please note that this is a TALK section and no "soapbox" language has been inserted intot he the article, at least, not by me. Can you deny the fact that every nation in the word refuses to recognize Israeli occupation and annexation of East Jerusalem? Do you deny that the UN has repeatedly declared Israeli settlement in all post 1967 territories as illegal? What exactly is false and outrageous about those facts?
:The last time we had a situation like this there was a flood and only the one guy in a boat with the minority position survived ;) User:Kuratowski's Ghost 10:56, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
They are central to rebut the reasoning that "majority of the inhabitants" use such and such name. If Jordan invaded and annexed Tel Aviv tomorrow, and moved 500,000 Arabs there and started calling the city "Arabpolis" or something, that doesn't mean it would stand and be accepted. '''Kuratowski's Ghost''': Regarding your edit summary [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jerusalem&diff=12903432&oldid=12902354 "I can keep this up all of eternity"] First, I'm pretty sure you are as mortal as the rest of us. Second, it's terribly counterproductive to turn this into a personal contest of wills. How about you assume I'm reverting as a matter of considered oppinon and I'll do the same for you. --User:AladdinSE 09:26, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
:There are Ethiopian Jews in Jerusalem, since majority is secondary to alphabetic order I would like to see the Amharic name up there as well listed before Arabic. User:Kuratowski's Ghost 10:56, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:If Jordan invaded and annexed Tel Aviv tomorrow, and moved 500,000 Arabs there and started calling the city "Arabpolis", Wikipedia would probably list the city under this name. Here are are a few precedences:
* Kaliningrad - invaded and annexed by the Soviet Union, and settled by Russians. "Königsberg" isn't even mentioned in the first sentence of the Wikipedia article.
* Nablus - named thus after invaded and settled by Romans, then Arabs. Original Hebrew name only mentioned after Arab name.
* Ho Chi Minh City - invaded and annexed by North Vietnam. Wikipedia uses the new name as the article title.
User:Uriber 13:00, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
One would guess that if Jordan invaded and annexed Tel Aviv tomorrow, and moved 500,000 Arabs there, they would probably start calling the city "Jaffa". Just a guess. The use of Nablus as an example is incredibly dubious - Nablus is not disputed, and has been called that for millennia now. At any rate, the situation with East Jerusalem is not the same as that with these other cities, because half of it is considered by every other country in the world to be technically part of a potential Palestinian state (or however you want to describe it), and its (legitimate) inhabitants call it Al-Quds. Another difference is that "Kaliningrad," "Nablus," and "Ho Chi Minh City" are all the ''English'' names of these cities. Neither Yerushalyim nor al Quds is. Personally, I'd say that Yerushalyim should probably be mentioned first, because it is the basis of the English name, and because there are, at present, more Hebrew-speaking inhabitants than Arabic-speaking ones, but, quite honestly, it really doesn't matter very much. What is unacceptable is Kuratowski's Ghost's attempt to treat the Arabic name as different in kind from the Hebrew name. User:John Kenney User_talk:John Kenney 14:24, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
::So by Wikipedia's policy of non-bias I should've pretended that "Al-Quds" is really a form of the word "Jerusalem" along with the English form and Modern, Sephardi and Tiberian Hebrew forms even though in reality it isn't. If the legs are too long for the bed cut them off, if they're too short stretch them using a rack, as long as they are made to fit the bed :P User:Kuratowski's Ghost 15:57, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:I'm glad we're in agreement regarding the issue currently being discussed here (Yerushalayim or Al-Quds first). Given that, I'll spare you my rebuttal regarding Kaliningrad etc. User:Uriber 15:18, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
==Magharba quarter / slum==
The article originally mentioned the slum near the Western Wall that was demolished. The current wording of the article (by an anonymous editor 64.81.54.23 who has been consistently editing the article to downplay mention of Jewish sentiments towards Jerusalem) creates the false impression that this Magharba quarter was somehow an historically important area that Israelis destroyed without any regard. When I added in that the area was dilapidated this was reverted on the grounds that it doesn't jibe with descriptions of the quarter. How does "dilapidated" not jibe with the common description of the area as a "slum"? User:Kuratowski's Ghost 01:56, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
: The Magharba quarter was, indeed, a historically important area. See [http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/papers/shaml7.html Nur Masalha's description]: "Its inhabitants, about 1,000 persons, were the beneficiaries of an ancient and important Islamic Waqf foundation originally established in 1193 by al-Malik al-Afdal, the son of Salah al-Din. Its obliteration in June 1967 also resulted in the destruction of several historic religious sites (including two mosques, two zawiyas and a great number of Waqf residences) which the quarter contained." The allegedly common description of the area as a slum appears to be exclusively used by Israelis in attempting to justify its destruction. - User:Mustafaa 20:57, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
::I suppose this is subjective, most of the old city still looks like a slum to people from my part of the world :) but perhaps the article should note both points of view. User:Kuratowski's Ghost 21:22, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:::Maybe so. - User:Mustafaa 21:26, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
==Vague phrases==
"The lives of some of the foremost rabbis (scholars and leaders) in the history of Judaism are intertwined with the gradual rebuilding of Jerusalem following its desolation at the hands of the Roman Empire." What exactly does this mean? I thought Jews weren't allowed back into the city until the 5th century, by which time it had long since been rebuilt. Perhaps a concrete example could be substituted. - User:Mustafaa 21:26, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:I'm not sure what it means either, but I'm pretty sure Jews were living there again by the 4th century. User:JayjgUser_talk:Jayjg 01:13, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:: If so, Jerusalem#First_millennium should be edited accordingly... - User:Mustafaa 05:05, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:::I'm going on memory here, but I think they returned unofficially in the 4th century, and legally by the 5th. User:JayjgUser_talk:Jayjg 05:40, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
==Other Arabic name==
Is Darussalaam can be regarded as an Arabic cognate of the Hebrew Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) as it means the same. Is this Arabic /d/ a reflect of the Hebrew /y/? Thanks! User:Meursault2004 20:25, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
== How the state of isreal was formed? ==
I read the article and found the history part of Jerusalem very interesting. However, I felt there is something missing. I could not find anything about the history of the state of Isreal. The section simply ends at the british conquest in 1917. But later on in the article picks up again with the history overveiw of the UN resolotion in 1947 and the palestenians-Israely conflict in 1948. I would like to know more about the period in between!
== "Jerusalem of Gold" (Yerushalayim shel zahav) ==
"written in celebration": Wikipedia's article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerushalayim_Shel_Zahav%2C_%28song%29_%28Jerusalem_of_Gold%29 and other sources indicate it was originally performed some weeks before the 1867 War.
Michael
== Most of the Christians in Jerusalem were UN officials???!! ==
the article stated that:
''Christian access to the Western Wall and the Temple Mount was allowed in many cases, but this was seldom in use, as most of the Christians in Jerusalem were UN officials running between the divided parts''
This is not true, christians have always been residents of jerusalem and they have their own qurter too, Arab christians and arminians had and still make a significant portion of the residents of the old city in jerusalem, before and after 1948 and 1967 wars !! and claiming that (olmost) only UN officials were visiting the christian holy sites is so untrue! since the UN officials number couldnt exceed a couple of hundreds MAX , and nothing was mentioned about the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the holiest place for christians in this very paragraph !! This paragraph gives the impression that there are no christians in jerusalem or at least "very very very few"--User:Mayz 20:54, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
:Yes you make a good point. But I think what the author meant was West Jerusalem. I think these people you mention all lived in East Jerusalem (correct me if I am wrong). User:Meursault2004 07:35, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
: The majority of Arab Christians lived in East Jerusalem but quite a number lived in West Jerusalem too. There were also non-Arab Christians like Armenians. The claim that they were outnumbered by UN officials is ridiculous. --User:Zero0000 09:09, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
:In that case let's modify this sentence. User:Meursault2004 09:13, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
:: I deleted it. We need a justification for even the first part. Since Christians don't have an extraordinary interest in the Western Wall or the Temple Mount, it is unclear why the issue is worth mentioning. --User:Zero0000 09:23, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
== The name "Jerusalem" ==
"''According to the Book of Samuel it was given the name "Jerusalem" (Hebrew Yerushaláyim) by King David''" -- Where in the Book of Samuel is this? I can only find the place where King David called it the "City of David". By the way, the "name" section is about to get replaced by something closer to encyclopedic standards. --User:Zero0000 08:59, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
:I can't find it either, seems that it is only in commentary on Samuel not in Samuel itself, so it should go or be changed to say that according to the book of Samuel he called it the City of David".
:: Do you know of anywhere in the Bible itself where a meaning or origin of the name "Jerusalem" is given? I know there are plenty of such places in later literature. --User:Zero0000 12:35, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
:Regarding "something closer to encyclopedic standards" be careful of outdated views and shoddy 19th century / early 20th century scholarship like the idea that it is named after an unattested Canaanite god of peace etc. or that the uru salim of the Amarna letters is the origin when in fact Uru does not match Jeru- phontically. User:Kuratowski's Ghost 11:09, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
:: I spent most of a day reading research monographs and archaeology journals on these subjects, so I know what the scholarly consensus is. Shalem is very well attested as a deity in multiple ancient sources and I didn't find a single dissent from that opinion. Furthermore, the identification of ''Urusalim'' in the Amarna letters with Jerusalem is generally accepted as fact (again, I didn't find a single dissenter though there is an opinion that it wasn't really a city then). I can provide copious modern references. --User:Zero0000 12:35, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
:::No one is denying that ''Urusalim'' is Jerusalem, the article says as much. The denial is that the "Jeru-" of the name "Jerusalem" comes from Uru in Urusalim. Shalim is attested as a divine personfication of sunset/dusk, not as a god of peace worshipped in Jerusalem who gave his name to the city as one finds in online factoids. User:Kuratowski's Ghost 13:02, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
==Reorganization (Again)==
I attempted a reorganization of the history section, as the history of Jerusalem was scattered in different areas, and was a cause of complaint (see some of the comments above). I tried to be uncontroversial and made no real xhanges to the text. We still need to add to the history of the Mandate period, though. --User:Goodoldpolonius2 05:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I added the Mandate period and finished the history section -- no reverts, and a good edit from Mustafaa, so I am happy. I have also reorganized the rest (nothing was cut!). The idea was to make the headings sensical. I reorganized the religious importance of Jerusalem section, so it is now in order of the chronology of the religions (except Mandeanism, which I think should be trimmed, it is almost as long as the Islam entry!), this is because each section references the previous religions. I also added some short summaries to the demography and places section. I think it flows a lot better now, but am open to comments. --User:Goodoldpolonius2 01:48, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
: The religion section is definitely problematic. I suspect the "Rabbis and Jerusalem" needs looking over by someone better versed in the subject than I am, and I know the Jerusalem in Islam section needs expansion. However, I think the Mandaean section is worth keeping in full (though of course I would, having written it); it offers an interesting counterpoint to the other three, and Mandaeanism is, as far as I know, the only other religion of any significant age that gives Jerusalem a special role. - User:Mustafaa 02:34, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::OK, that's fine on the Mandaeans, though perhaps you could cut out some scriptural references to the Ginza Rba? It seems unlikely that people will need to look up the details, and the article has a lot of scriptural references already (and is pretty long!). I agree that the "Rabbis and Jerusalem" section is incoherent. I'll let the article sit for a couple of days, and, if no one else does, I will take a crack at it. I am afraid of making any substantive changes to the text until I know everyone is comfortable with the reorganization. It would also be great if someone helped organize the Christianity section; its written clearly, and chronologically, but it feels jumpy and makes it difficult to understand the present significance, as opposed to the history, of Jerusalem to Christians. --User:Goodoldpolonius2 03:00, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'll consider ways of improving the Jerusalem in Islam section as well - [http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=508] will be useful there. - User:Mustafaa 22:19, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:And a question - some sources I have read indicate that Jerusalem began to decline in importance during the Abbasid dynasty, not after the crusades, [http://www.biu.ac.il/JS/rennert/history_8.html as in this example]. The argument goes that after the earthquake of 747, except for the Al Alqsa mosque, the city was never fully repaired and power shifted to Baghdad, though Jerusalem remained a pilgrim destination, it was also a backwater. I know there are quotes from Muslim travelers talking about Jerusalem during the Abbasid reign, but was wondering if you had any further information on what the status was during this period. --User:Goodoldpolonius2 23:20, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:: Certainly power shifted to Baghdad from Damascus; however, "backwater" implies more than just a lowered political importance, and the three geographers mentioned in that section describe a proud and flourishing Abbasid town. Immediately before the crusades, under the Seljuks, Jerusalem became a particular centre for intellectual/theological activity, with Al-Ghazali writing his greatest work there, and Ibn Arabi studying there, among a number of other notable figures. - User:Mustafaa 23:37, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*See related articles Israel and Palestine (region). Hebrew Bible/Tanakh places Crusades Cities in Israel Holy cities Israeli history Jewish history Palestine
See other meanings of words starting from letter:
Words begining with Jerusalem:
Jerusalem
Jerusalem
Jerusalem
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Jerusalem's_Old_City_Wall
Jerusalem's_Old_City_Walls
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Jerusalem's_Old_City_walls
Jerusalem,_Israel
Jerusalem,_New_York
Jerusalem,_New_Zealand
Jerusalem,_OH
Jerusalem,_Ohio
Jerusalem,_VA
Jerusalem,_Virginia
Jerusalem/Archive_1
Jerusalem/Archive_2
Jerusalem/capital
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Jerusalem_(disambiguation)
Jerusalem_(hymn)
Jerusalem_(song)
Jerusalem_above
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Jerusalem_Bible
Jerusalem_Botanical_Gardens
Jerusalem_bus_20_massacre
Jerusalem_bus_2_massacre
Jerusalem_Center_for_Public_Affairs
Jerusalem_Center_for_Public_Affairs
Jerusalem_Central_Bus_Station
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Jerusalem_Delivered
Jerusalem_District
Jerusalem_International_Airport
Jerusalem_Law
Jerusalem_mosques
Jerusalem_of_Gold
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Jerusalem_pogrom_of_April,_1920
Jerusalem_pogrom_of_April,_1920
Jerusalem_Post
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Jerusalem
Jerusalem (Hebrew language: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushalayim; Arabic language: القدس al-Quds; see also names of Jerusalem) is an ancient Middle Eastern city of key importance to the religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. With a population of 704,900 (as of December 31, 2004 [http://www.cbs.gov.il/population/new_2004/tab_3.pdf]), it is a richly heterogeneous city, representing a wide range of national, religious, and socioeconomic groups. The section called the "Old City" is surrounded by walls and consists of four quarters: Jewish, Christianity, Armenian (people), and Muslim. The status of the city is hotly disputed. The 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and Jordan, also known as the Green_Line#Israel, cuts through the city. Since Israel's victory in the 1967 Six-Day War, it has controlled the entire city and claims sovereignty over it. According to Israeli Jerusalem Law, Jerusalem is the capital of the State of Israel, and is the center of Jerusalem District; it serves as the country's seat of government and otherwise functions as capital. Many countries do not recognize Israeli sovereignty over some or all of the city and enforce this view by maintaining their embassies in Tel Aviv or in the suburbs. Palestinians also claim all or part of Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state. == Name == The origin of the name of the city is uncertain. It is possible to understand the name (Hebrew language ''Yerushalayim'') as either "Heritage of Salem" or "Heritage of Peace" - a contraction of "heritage" (''yerusha'') and Salem (''Shalem'' literally "whole" or "complete") or "peace" (''shalom''). (See the Biblical commentator the Ramban for explanation.) "Salem" is the original name used in Genesis 14:18 for the city. Similarly the Amarna Letters call the city ''Uru Salim'' in Akkadian, a cognate of the Hebrew language ''Ir Shalem'' ("city of Salem"). Some consider a connection between the name and ''Shalim'' the personification of dusk in Ugarit myth. See also Names_of_Jerusalem. == History == === Antiquity (Prehistory - 6 CE) === [[Image:Jerusalem ruins from Davids.jpg|thumbnail|150px|Archaeology ruins from King David's time]] This city has known many wars and various periods of occupation. According to Jewish tradition it was founded by Abraham's forefathers Shem and Eber. In Genesis it was ruled by Melchizedek, regarded in Jewish tradition as being a priest of God and identical to Shem. Later it was conquered by the Jebusites. After this it came under Jewish control. The Bible records that King David defeated the Jebusites in war and captured the city without destroying it. David then expanded the city to the south, and declared it the capital city of the united Kingdom of Israel. Later, according to the Bible, the Temple in Jerusalem was built in Jerusalem by King Solomon. The Temple became a major cultural center in the region, eventually overcoming other ritual centers such as Shilo and Bethel. Near the end of the reign of King Solomon, the northern ten tribes split off to form the Kingdom of Israel with its capital at Samaria. Jerusalem then became the capital of the southern kingdom, the Kingdom of Judah. By the end of the "First Temple Period," Jerusalem was the sole acting religious shrine in the kingdom and a center of regular pilgrimage. Although recent achaeological finds may push the date yet earlier (see Tel Dan Stele), around the ninth century BCE clear historical records begin to corroborate some of the biblical history, the kings of Judah become historically identifiable, and the significance the Temple had in Jewish religious life is clear. Jerusalem was the capital of the Kingdom of Judah for some 400 years. It had survived (or, as some historians claim, averted) an Assyrian Siege of Jerusalem (701 BC), unlike Samaria, the capital of the northern Kingdom of Israel, which had fallen some twenty years previously. However, the city was overcome by the Babylonians in 586 BCE, who then took the young king Jehoiachin into Babylonian captivity, together with most of the aristocracy. However, the country rebelled again under Zedekiah, prompting the city's repeated conquest and destruction by Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon. The temple was burnt, and the city's walls were ruined, thus rendering what remained of the city unprotected. After several decades of Babylonian captivity of Judah and the Persian conquest of Babylon, the Persians allowed the Jews to return to Judah and rebuild the city's walls and the Temple. It has continued to be the capital of Judah and center of Jewish worship, as a province under the Persians, Greek and Romans, with a relatively short period of independence under the Hasmonean Kingdom. The Temple complex was upgraded and the Temple itself rebuilt under Herod the Great, a Jewish client-king under Roman Empire rule, around 19 BCE. That structure is known as the Second Temple, and was the most important of the many improvements Herod made to the city. After Herod's death, the province and city came under direct Roman rule in 6 CE. === Roman Rule (6 CE - 638 CE) === [[Image:Sheqel_of_Israel_ca_68_AD.jpg|left|thumb|100px|A coin issued by the rebels in 68. Obverse: "Shekel Israel, year 3". Reverse: "Jerusalem the Holy"]] [[Image:sack_of_jerusalem.JPG|right|thumb|150px|Sack of Jerusalem. A fragment from the Arch of Titus, Rome.]] After a brief period of oppressive Roman rule, the city was ruined yet again when a civil war accompanied by a Great Jewish Revolt against Rome in Judea led to the city's repeated sack and ruin at the hands of Titus Flavius in 70 CE. The Second Temple was burnt, and the whole city was ruined. The only remaining part of the Temple was a portion of an external (retaining) wall which became known as the Western Wall. After the end of this first revolt, the Jews continued to live in Jerusalem in significant numbers, and were allowed to practice their religion. In the second century the Roman Emperor Hadrian began to rebuild Jerusalem as a pagan city while restricting some Jewish practices. Angry at this affront, the Judeans again revolted led by Bar Kokhba's revolt. Hadrian responded with overwhelming force, putting down the revolution and killing as many as half a million Jews, and resettling the city as a pagan polis under the name Aelia Capitolina. Jews were forbidden to enter the city, but for a single day of the year, Tisha B'Av, (the Ninth of Av, see Hebrew calendar), when they could weep for the destruction of their city at the Temple's only remaining wall. For another 150 years, the city remained a relatively unimportant Roman town. Under Byzantine Emperor Constantine, however, rebuilt Jerusalem as a Christian center of worship, building the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in 335. Jews were banned from the city, except under a brief period of Persian rule from 614-629. === Arab, Crusader, and Early Ottoman Rule (638-1800s)=== [[Image:Jerusalem985-1052.jpg|thumbnail|right|150px|Map of Jerusalem as it appeared in the years 958-1052, according to Arab geographers such as al-Muqaddasi.]] Although the Qur'an does not mention the name "Jerusalem", the ''hadith'' specify that it was from Jerusalem that Muhammad ascended to heaven in the Night Journey, or Isra and Miraj. The city was one of the Arab Caliphate's first conquests in 638 CE; according to Arab historians of the time, the Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab personally went to the city to receive its submission, cleaning out and praying at the Temple Mount in the process. Some Muslim and non-Muslim sources add that he built a mosque there. Sixty years later, the Dome of the Rock was built, a structure in which there lies the stone where Muhammad is said to have tethered his mount Buraq during the Isra. This is also reputed to be the place where Abraham went to sacrifice his son (Isaac in the Jewish tradition, Ishmael in the Muslim one.) Note that the octagonal and gold-sheeted Dome is not the same thing as the Al-Aqsa Mosque beside it, which was built more than three centuries later. Under the early centuries of Muslim rule, especially during the Umayyad Dynasty (650-750) and Abbasid Dynasty (750-969) dynasties, the city prospered; the geographers Ibn Hawqal and al-Istakhri (10th century) describe it as "the most fertile province of Palestine (region)", while its native son the geographer al-Muqaddasi (born 946) devoted many pages to its praises in his most famous work, ''The Best Divisions in the Knowledge of the Climes.'' The early Arab period was also one of religious tolerance. However, in the early 11th century, the Egyptian Fatimid Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered the destruction of all churches and synagogues in Jerusalem, a policy reversed by his successors. Reports of this were one cause of the First Crusade, which marched off from Europe to the area, and, on July 15, 1099, Christian soldiers took Jerusalem after a difficult Siege of Jerusalem (1099). They then proceeded to slaughter most of the city's Muslim and Jewish inhabitants. Raymond d'Aguiliers, chaplain to Raymond de Saint-Gilles, Count of Toulouse, wrote: :''Piles of heads, hands, and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one's way over the bodies of men and horses. But these were small matters compared to what happened at the Temple of Solomon, a place where religious ceremonies were ordinarily chanted. What happened there? If I tell the truth, it will exceed your powers of belief. So let it suffice to say this much, at least, that in the Temple and porch of Solomon, men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle-reins. Indeed, it was a just and splendid judgment of God that this place should be filled with the blood of unbelievers, since it had suffered so long from their blasphemies. The city was filled with corpses and blood.'' (Edward Peters, ''The First Crusade: The chronicle of Fulcher of Chartres and other source materials'', p. 214) Jerusalem became the capital of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, a feudal state, of which the Kings of Jerusalem was the chief. Neither Jews nor Muslims were allowed into the city during that time. The Kingdom of Jerusalem lasted until 1291; however, Jerusalem itself was recaptured by Saladin in 1187, who permitted worship of all religions. In 1173 Benjamin of Tudela visited Jerusalem. He described it as a small city full of Jacobite (Orthodox)s, Armenians, Greeks, and Georgia (country)ns. Two hundred Jews dwelt in a corner of the city under the Tower of David. In 1219 the walls of the city were taken down by order of the Sultan of Damascus; in 1229, by treaty with Egypt, Jerusalem came into the hands of Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor. In 1239 he began to rebuild the walls; but they were again demolished by Da'ud, the emir of Kerak. [[Image:Tower of david jerusalem.jpg|thumb|left|Medieval Tower of David (Migdal David) in Jerusalem today]] In 1243 Jerusalem came again into the power of the Christians, and the walls were repaired. The Kharezmian Tatars took the city in 1244; and they in turn were driven out by the Egyptians in 1247. In 1260 the Tatars under Hulaku Khan overran the whole land, and the Jews that were in Jerusalem had to flee to the neighboring villages. In 1244, Sultan Malik al-Muattam razed the Jerusalem's Old City Walls, rendering it again defenseless and dealing a heavy blow to the city's status. In the middle of the 13th century, Jerusalem was captured by the Egyptian Mameluks. In 1517, it was taken over by the Ottoman Empire and enjoyed a period of renewal and peace under Suleiman the Magnificent - including the rebuilding of magnificent walls of what is now known as the Old City (however, some of the wall foundations are remains of genuine antique walls). The rule of Suleiman and the following Ottoman Sultans brought an age of "religious peace"; Jew, Christian and Muslim enjoyed the freedom of religion the Ottomans granted them and it was possible to find a synagogue, a church and a mosque in the same street. The city remained open to all religions, although the empire's faulty management after Suleiman meant slow economical stagnation. In 1482, the visiting Dominican Order priest Felix Fabri described Jerusalem as ''a dwelling place of diverse nations of the world, and is, as it were, a collection of all manner of abominations''. As ''abominations'' he listed Saracens, Greeks, Syrians, Jacobites, Abyssianians, Nestorians, Armenians, Gregorians, Maronites, Turcomans, Bedouins, Assassins, a sect possibly Druze, Mamelukes, and ''the most accursed of all'', Jews. Only the Latin Christians ''long with all their hearts for Christian princes to come and subject all the country to the authority of the Church of Rome''. (A. Stewart, Palestine Pilgrims Text Society, Vol 9-10, p. 384-391) === Revival of Jerusalem (1800s-1917) === [[Image:Jews in Jerusalem 1895.jpg|thumb|Jews in Jerusalem 1895]] The modern history of Jerusalem began in the mid-nineteenth century, with the decline of the Ottoman Empire. At that time, the city was a backwater, with a population that did not exceed 8,000. Nevertheless, it was, even then, an extremely heterogeneous city because of its significance to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The population was divided into four major communities--Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Armenian--and the first three of these could be further divided into countless subgroups, based on precise religious affiliation or country of origin. An example of this would be the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which was meticulously partitioned between the Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Armenian Church, Coptic Church, and Ethiopian Church churches. Tensions between the groups ran so deep that the keys to the shrine were kept with a 'neutral' Muslim family for safekeeping. At that time, the communities were located mainly around their primary shrines. The Muslim community, then the largest, surrounded the Haram ash-Sharif or Temple Mount (northeast), the Christians lived mainly in the vicinity of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (northwest), the Jews lived mostly on the slope above the Western Wall (southeast), and the Armenians lived near the Gates in Jerusalem's Old City Walls (southwest). In no way was this division exclusive, however, it did form the basis of the four quarters during the British Mandate period (1917-1948). Several changes occurred in the mid-nineteenth century, which had long-lasting effects on the city: their implications can be felt today and lie at the root of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict over Jerusalem. The first of these was a trickle of Jewish immigrants, from the Middle East and Eastern Europe, which shifted the balance of population by the middle of the 19th century. The first such immigrants were Orthodox Judaism Jews: some were elderly individuals, who came to die in Jerusalem and be buried on the Mount of Olives; others were students, who came with their families to await the coming of the Messiah, and adding new life to the local population. At the same time, European colonial powers also began seeking toeholds in the city, hoping to expand their influence pending the imminent collapse of the Ottoman Empire. This was also an age of Christian religious revival, and many churches sent missionaries to proselytize among the Muslim and especially the Jewish populations, believing that this would speed the Second Coming of Christ. Finally, the combination of European colonialism and religious zeal was expressed in a new scientific interest in the biblical lands in general and Jerusalem in particular. Archeological and other expeditions made some spectacular finds, which increased interest in Jerusalem even more. [[Image:Jewish Quarter 1930.jpg|thumb|The Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem 1930]] By the 1860s, the city, with an area of only 1 square kilometer, was already overcrowded. Thus began the construction of the New City, the part of Jerusalem outside of the city walls. Seeking new areas to stake their claims, the Russian Orthodox Church began constructing a complex, now known as the Russian Compound, a few hundred meters from Gates in Jerusalem's Old City Walls. The first attempt at residential settlement outside the walls of Jerusalem was begun by Jews, who built a small complex on the hill overlooking Zion Gate, across the Valley of Hinnom. This settlement, known as Mishkenot Sha’ananim, eventually flourished and set the precedent for other new communities to spring up to the west and north of the Old City. In time, as the communities grew and connected geographically, this became known as the New City. === British Mandate (1917-1948) === [[Image:Jewish_legion_hakotel_1917.jpg|right|thumb|Jewish Legion soldiers at the Western Wall after taking part in 1917 British conquest of Jerusalem]] The United Kingdom were victorious over the Turks in the Middle East and with victory in Palestine, General Sir Edmund Allenby, commander-in-chief of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force entered Jerusalem on foot, out of respect for the Holy City, on December 11th, 1917. By the time Edmund Allenby took Jerusalem from the Ottomans in 1917, the new city was a patchwork of neighborhoods and communities, each with a distinct ethnic character. This continued under British rule, as the New City of Jerusalem grew outside the old city walls and the Old City of Jerusalem gradually emerged as little more than an impoverished older neighborhood. One of the British bequests to the city was a town planning order requiring new buildings in the city to be faced with sandstone and thus preserving some of the overall look of the city, even as it grew. During the 1930s, two important new institutions, the Hadassah and Hebrew University were founded in Jerusalem's Mount Scopus. British rule marked a period of growing unrest. Arab resentment at British rule and the influx of Jewish immigrants (by 1948 1 in 6 Jews in Palestine lived in Jerusalem) boiled over in anti-Jewish riots in Jerusalem in 1920, 1929, and the 1930s that caused significant damage and several deaths. The Jewish community organized self-defense forces in response to the Jerusalem pogrom of April, 1920 and later disturbances; while other Jewish groups carried out bombings and attacks against the British, especially in response to suspected complicity with the Arabs and restrictions on immigration during World War II imposed by the White Paper of 1939. The level of violence continued to escalate throughout the 1930s and 1940s. On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly approved a 1947 UN Partition Plan which partitioned the British Mandate of Palestine into two states: one Jewish and one Arab. Each state would be composed of three major sections, linked by extraterritorial crossroads, plus an Arab enclave at Jaffa, Israel. The Greater Jerusalem area would fall under international control. After partition, the fight for Jerusalem escalated, with heavy casualties among both fighters and civilians on the British, Jewish, and Arab sides. By the end of March, 1948, just before the British withdrawal, and with the British increasingly reluctant to intervene, the roads to Jerusalem were cut off by Arab irregulars, placing the Jewish population of the city under siege. The siege was eventually broken, though massacres of civilians occured on both sides, before the 1948 Arab-Israeli War began with the end of the British Mandate in May of 1948. === Jerusalem and the Arab-Israeli conflict (1948-)=== Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, when a Palestinian-Arab state failed to materialize and the British Mandate of Palestine was invaded by Egypt and Jordan, Jerusalem was divided. The Western half of the New City became part of the new state of Israel, while the eastern half, along with the Old City, was annexed by Jordan. Jordan did not allow Jewish access to the Western Wall (also known to non-Jews as the Wailing Wall) and Temple Mount, Judaism's holiest sites, in the Old City. [[Image:Generals_Rabin_Dayan_Narkis_Jerusalem_1967.jpg|thumb|General Moshe Dayan (center); General Yitzchak Rabin (right); General Uzi Narkiss (left), entering Old City in June 1967]] The United Nations proposed, in its 1947 plan for the partition of Palestine, for Jerusalem to be a city under international administration. However, on January 23, 1950 the Knesset passed a resolution that stated Jerusalem was the capital of Israel. East Jerusalem was captured by Israel Defense Force following the Six Day War in 1967. Most Jews celebrated the event as a liberation of the city; a new Israeli holiday was created, Jerusalem Day (''Yom Yerushalayim''), and the most popular secular Hebrew language song, "Jerusalem of Gold" (''Yerushalayim shel zahav''), was written in celebration. Following this the medieval Magharba Quarter was demolished, and a huge public plaza was built in its place behind the Western Wall. [[Image:Soldiers_at_night_at_KOTEL.jpg|left|thumb|Israel Defense Forces on parade at the Western Wall plaza]] Many large state gatherings of the State of Israel take place there now, including the official swearing-in of different Israel army officers units, national ceremonies such as memorial services for fallen Israeli soldiers on ''Yom Hazikaron'', huge celebrations on Israel Independence Day (''Yom Ha'atzmaut''), huge gatherings of tens of thousands on Jewish religious holidays, and on-going daily prayers by regular attendees. It is also a major high-point for tourists visiting Jerusalem. Under Israeli control members of all religions were largely granted access to their holy sites. The medieval Magharba neighbourhood in front of the Wall was demolished and a large open air plaza constructed. This plaza is a favored site of Jewish prayer services. However, concerns have been raised about several attacks on the Al-Aqsa Mosque, notably a serious fire in 1969 (arson by a delusional Australian tourist) and tunnels opened beneath that mosque, discovered in 1981, 1988 and 1996. The status of East Jerusalem remains a highly controversial issue. === Current status === Israeli law designates Jerusalem as the capital of Israel; only a few countries recognize this designation. See #Status_as_Israel's_capital. According to the 1947 UN Partition Plan, Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city, not part of either the proposed Jewish or Arab state. Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, West Jerusalem was occupied by Israel, while East Jerusalem (including the Old City) was occupied by Jordan, along with the West Bank. The Jordanian annexation of the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) was not internationally recognized, except by the United Kingdom and Pakistan. In the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel occupied East Jerusalem, and began taking steps to unify the city under Israeli control. It annexed 6.4 km² of Jordanian Jerusalem and 64 km² of the nearby West Bank. (see [http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/key_maps/3.stm Maps of Jerusalem pre- and post-1967]). Residents of the annexed territory were offered Israeli citizenship on condition they renounce their Jordanian citizenship, which most of them refused to do. In 1988, Jordan withdrew all its claims to the West Bank (including Jerusalem) in favor of the Palestine Liberation Organization. The status of Palestinians in East Jerusalem is also controversial. The Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem have a 'permanent resident' status, which allows them to move within Israel proper. However should they move out of Israel proper (e.g. into the Palestinian territories), this status will be lost and they will not be able to return. Since many have extended families in the West Bank, only miles away, this often implies enormous hassles. By Israel's Citizenship Law, they are entitled to Israeli citizenship, which they can receive automatically or almost automatically, provided that they do not have any other citizenship. Thus, many Palestinians who would like to hold their Jordanian passports have to retain the status of permanent residents. Some Palestinians decline to accept citizenship since they consider it equivalent to accepting Israel's annexation. Another issue is the status of family members not recorded in the census preceding the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem. They must apply for entry into East Jerusalem for family reunification with the Ministry of the Interior. Palestinians complain that such applications have been arbitrarily denied for purposes of limiting the Palestinian population in East Jerusalem, while Israeli authorities claim they treat Palestinians fairly. These and other aspects have been a source of criticism from Palestinians and Israeli human rights organizations, such as B'Tselem. == Status as Israel's capital == [[Image:Knesset in Jerusalem Israel.jpg|thumb|150px|The modern Knesset building, Israel's parliament, in Jerusalem today]] In 1980, the Israeli Knesset confirmed Jerusalem's status as the nation's "eternal and indivisible capital", by passing the ''Jerusalem Law''. As of 2004, only two states, Costa Rica and El Salvador, have their embassies in Jerusalem (since 1984), but the Consulate General of Greece as well as that of the United Kingdom and the United States is based there. Additionally, Bolivia and Paraguay have their embassies in Mevasseret Zion, a suburb of Jerusalem. All the branches of Israeli government (Presidential, Legislative, Judicial, and Administrative) are seated in Jerusalem. The Knesset building is well known in Jerusalem. === Palestinian aspirations === Palestinian groups claim either all of Jerusalem (''Al-Quds'') or East Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state. === UN position === The position of the United Nations on the question of Jerusalem is contained in General Assembly resolution 181(11) and subsequent resolutions of the General Assembly and the Security Council concerning this question. The UN Security Council, in UN Security Council Resolution 478, declared that the 1980 Jerusalem Law declaring Jerusalem as Israel's "eternal and indivisible" capital was "null and void and must be rescinded forthwith" (14-0-1, with United States abstaining). The resolution instructed member states to withdraw their diplomatic representation from the city as a punitive measure. Before this resolution, thirteen countries maintained their embassies in Jerusalem: Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, the Netherlands, Panama, Uruguay, Venezuela. Following the UN resolution, all thirteen moved their embassies to Tel Aviv. Costa Rica and El Salvador moved theirs back to Jerusalem in 1984. === United States position === The United States ''Jerusalem Embassy Act'', passed by U.S. Congress in 1995, states that ''"Jerusalem should be recognized as the capital of the State of Israel; and the United States Embassy in Israel should be established in Jerusalem no later than May 31, 1999"''. Since then, the relocation of the embassy from Tel Aviv is being suspended by the President semi-annually, each time stating that ''"[the] Administration remains committed to beginning the process of moving our embassy to Jerusalem"''. As a result of the Embassy Act, official U.S. documents and web sites refer to Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Section 214 of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act, 2003 states: :"The Congress maintains its commitment to relocating the United States Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem and urges the President [...] to immediately begin the process of relocating the United States Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem". [http://www.mideastweb.org/jeruembassy2002.htm] However, George W. Bush has argued that this section is merely "advisory", stating that it "impermissibly interferes with the President's constitutional authority". [http://www.state.gov/m/rm/rls/rm/2002/13888.htm] The U.S. Constitution reserves the conduct of foreign policy to the President and acts of Congress which make foreign policy are invalid for that reason. === United Kingdom position === UK government statement [http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1076522475865] :"In line with the Declaration of Principles of 13 September 1993 and the Interim Agreement of 28 September 1995, both agreed by Israel and the PLO, the Government regards the status of Jerusalem as still to be determined in permanent status negotiations between the parties. Pending agreement, we recognise de facto Israeli control of West Jerusalem but consider East Jerusalem to be occupied territory. We recognise no sovereignty over the city." :"Jerusalem has a unique religious and cultural importance for Christians, Jews and Muslims, and we attach great importance to ensuring access to Jerusalem and freedom of worship there for those of all faiths." ===Arguments for and against internationalization=== The proposal that Jerusalem should be a city under international administration is still made at times by Christians, the only interested party without a large population in the city. (Internationalization is the proposal favored by the Pope.) Most negotiations regarding the future status of Jerusalem have however been based on partition; for example, one scheme would have Israel keep the Jewish quarter and the Western Wall (the "Wailing Wall"), with the rest of the Old City and the Temple Mount being transferred to a new Palestinian state. Some Israelis are opposed to any division of Jerusalem, based on cultural, historic, and religious grounds. Others believe that areas such as the Old City which are sacred to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam should be under international or multilateral control. Palestinians have argued for an open city, though its feasibility has been challenged given the existence of mutual distrust. ==Religious Significance== Jerusalem plays an important role in three Major world religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. === Jerusalem, Jews and Judaism === ==== Jerusalem in Torah and Tanakh ==== Jerusalem has long been embedded into the religious consciousness of the Jewish people. Jews have always studied and personalized the struggle by King David to capture Jerusalem and his desire to build the Jewish temple there as described in the Book of Samuel and his yearnings about Jerusalem which became part of the popular prayers and songs. ==== Jerusalem and the Jewish religious calendar ==== Two major Jewish festivals observed by most Jews conclude with the words: "Next Year in Jerusalem" ("''l'shanah haba'ah birushalayim''") or "Next Year in Rebuilt Jerusalem" ("''l'shanah haba'ah birushalayim hab'nuyah''"): *At the end of the Passover Seder on each night, the night's meal and recitation of prayers about the miracles of the ancient Exodus from Egypt concludes with the loud repetitious singing of "Next Year in Jerusalem". *The holiest day on the Jewish calendar, Yom Kippur, also concludes with the singing and exclamation of "Next Year in Jerusalem". Each of these days has an associated holy text, the ''Hagada'' for ''Pesach'' (Passover) and the ''Machzor'' for ''Yom Kippur'' (Day of Atonement), which stresses the desire to return to Jerusalem. Today, with over a quarter million Jews practicing Orthodox Judaism living in Jerusalem, the Jewish festivals come to life, and result in many synagogues and the Western Wall witnessing tens of thousands of fervent worshipers flooding the Jewish places of worship. [[Image:Second Temple Destroyed.jpg|thumb|Artist's impression of Jerusalem's Second Temple fiery destruction 2,000 years ago by Roman Empire.]] The saddest fast-day on the Jewish religious calendar is the Ninth of Av when Jews traditionally spent the day crying for the loss of their two Holy Temples and the destruction of Jerusalem. This major (24 hour) fast is preceded on the calendar by two minor dawn to dusk fast days, the Tenth of Tevet mourning for the time Babylonia laid siege to the First Temple, and for the tragedy of the Seventeenth of Tammuz when Rome broke through the outer walls of the Second Temple. The words used when Jews console any mourner during the customary Seven Days of Mourning are: :"May God comfort you among all the mourners for Zion and Jerusalem" ==== Jerusalem and prayer ==== [[Image:Building_Aish_HaTorah_Jerusalem.jpg|thumb|Opposite the Western Wall in Jerusalem, at the Western Wall Plaza, a huge yeshiva building used for Torah study and Jewish prayer is built today]] The daily prayers, recited by religious Jews three times a day over the last two thousand years, mention Jerusalem and its functions multiple times. Some examples from the siddur and the amidah are: :(Addressing God): "And to Jerusalem, your city, may you return in compassion, and may you rest within it, as you have spoke. May you rebuild it soon in our days as an eternal structure, and may you speedily establish the throne of (King) David within it. Blessed are you God, the builder of Jerusalem...May our eyes behold Your return to Zion in compassion. Blessed are you God, who restores his presence to Zion." Additionally when partaking of a daily meal with bread, the following is part of the required "Grace After Meals" which must be recited: :"Have mercy Lord our God, on Israel your people, on Jerusalem your city, on Zion the resting place of your glory, on the monarchy of (King David) your anointed, and on the great and holy (Temple) house upon which your name is called...Rebuild Jerusalem, the holy city, soon in our days. Blessed are you God who rebuilds Jerusalem in his mercy, amen." When partaking of a light meal, the thanksgiving blessing states: :"...Have mercy, Lord, our God, on Israel, your people; on Jerusalem, your city; and on Zion, the resting place of your glory; upon your altar, and upon your temple. Rebuild Jerusalem, the city of holiness, speedily in our days. Bring us up into it and gladden us in its rebuilding and let us eat from its fruit and be satisfied with its goodness and bless you upon it in holiness and purity. For you, God, are good and do good to all and we thank you for the land and for the nourishment..." When the Jews were exiled, first by the Babylonian Empire about 2,500 years ago and then by the Roman Empire 2,000 years ago, the great rabbis and scholars of the mishnah and Talmud instituted the policy that each synagogue should replicate the original Jewish temple and that it be constructed in such a way that all prayers in the siddur (prayer book) be recited while facing Jerusalem, as that is where the ancient temple stood and it was the only permissible place of the sacrificial offerings. Thus synagogues in Europe face south; synagogues in North America face east, countries to the south of Israel, such as Yemen or South Africa face north; and those to the east of Israel, face west. Even when in private prayer and not in a synagogue, a Jew faces Jerusalem, as mandated by Jewish law compiled by the rabbis in the Shulkhan Arukh. ==== Customs in rememberance of Jerusalem ==== [[Image:Breaking_glass_by_groom.jpg|thumb|Jewish Jewish view of marriage today, center, with right foot raised, about to break glass cup (covered by a small white cloth) with his right heel, recalling Jerusalem's destruction]] There is a custom practiced by some, prior to when a Jewish groom walks to take his place beneath the bridal canopy, that a tiny amount of ash be touched upon his forehead earlier, so that he not allow his own rejoicing to be "greater" than the ongoing need to recall Jerusalem's fall. The well-known custom of the groom breaking a glass with the heel of his shoe after the ceremony is also related to the subject of mourning for Jerusalem. The groom recites the sentence from Psalms "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget ''her cunning''." (Psalms 137:5). The translation given is from the King James Version, the italicized words are not present in the Hebrew. All traditional Jewish commentators, however, agree with this translation; it was common in Biblical Hebrew to not explicitly express any possible negative consequence. Traditionally, there was an ancient custom to leave a patch near the entrance to one's home unpainted as a remembrance of the destruction (''zecher lechurban''), of the temples and Jerusalem. ==== Western Wall in Jerusalem ==== The Western Wall, in the heart of the Old City of Jerusalem, is generally considered to be the only remains of the Second Temple from the era of the Roman conquests. There are said to be esoteric texts in Midrash that mention God's promise to keep this one remnant of the outer temple wall standing as a memorial and reminder of the past. Hence the significance of the "Western Wall" (''kotel hama'aravi'') - also called the "Wailing Wall" by non-Jews, attesting to their perception of Jews' propensity to cry whenever they came before it. ==== Rabbis and Jerusalem ==== The Talmud records that the rabbinical leader Yohanan ben Zakkai (c. 70 C.E.) urged a peaceful surrender, in order to save Jerusalem from destruction, but was not heeded as the city was under the control of the Zealots. An early expression of the Jewish desire to "return to Zion" is the journey of Yehuda Halevi, who died in about 1140. Jewish legend relates that as he came near Jerusalem, overpowered by the sight of the Holy City, he sang his most beautiful elegy, the celebrated "Zionide" ''Tzion ha-lo Tish'ali'' and that at that instant he was ridden down and killed by an Arab. He was followed by Nahmanides, the ''Ramban'', who, in 1267 emigrated to the land of Israel, and came for a short stay to live in Jerusalem. He wrote that he found barely ten Jews, as it had been desolated by the Crusades, nevertheless, together they built a synagogue that is the oldest that still stands to this day, known as the "Ramban Synagogue". Both Elijah ben Solomon (d. 1797) known as the ''Vilna Gaon'', and Israel ben Eliezer (d. 1760) known as the ''Ba'al Shem Tov'' instructed and sent small successive waves of their disciples to settle in Jerusalem then under Turkey Ottoman Empire rule. They created a Jewish religious infrastructure that remains the core of the ''Haredi'' Jewish community in Jerusalem to this day. The British Mandate of Palestine authorities created the new offices of "Chief Rabbi" in 1921 for both Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews with central offices in Jerusalem. Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook (d. 1935) moved to Jerusalem to set up this office, associated with the "Religious Zionist" ''Mafdal'' group, becoming the first modern Chief Rabbi together with Sephardic Chief Rabbi Yaakov Meir. The official structure housing the Chief Rabbinate was completed in 1958 and is known as ''Heichal Shlomo''. Jerusalem is also home to a number of the world's largest ''yeshivot'' (Talmudical and Rabbinical schools), and has become the undisputed capital of Jewish scholarly, religious and spiritual life for most of world Jewry. === Jerusalem in the Tanakh (Old Testament) === Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Torah and Tanakh, or Old Testament, a text sacred to both Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism it is considered the Written Law, the basis for the Oral Law (Mishnah, Talmud and Shulkhan Arukh) studied, practiced and treasured by Jews and Judaism for three millennia. (List of Jewish Prayers and Blessings). In Christianity, it is considered as the account of God's relationship with His chosen people - the original covenant - and the essential prelude to the events narrated in the New Testament, including both universal commandments (eg the Ten Commandments) and obsolete or Judaism-specific ones. For example, the book of Psalms, which has been frequently recited and memorized by Jews and Christians for centuries, says: (etc.) *"By the rivers of Babylon we sat down and wept when we remembered Zion." (Psalms 137:1) *"For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us ''required of us'' mirth, ''saying'', Sing us ''one'' of the songs of Zion. How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land? '''If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget ''her cunning'' '''. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy. Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase ''it'', rase ''it'', even to the foundation thereof; O daughter of Babylon, that art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that repayeth thee as thou hast served us." (Psalms 137:3-8) (King James Version, with italics for words not in the original Hebrew) *"O God, the nations have entered into your inheritance, they have defiled the sanctuary of your holiness, they have turned Jerusalem into heaps of rubble...they have shed their blood like water round Jerusalem..." (Psalms 79:1-3); *"...O Jerusalem, the built up Jerusalem is like a city that is united together...Pray for the peace of Jerusalem..." (Psalms 122:2-6); *"Jerusalem is surrounded by mountains as God surrounds his people forever" (Psalms 125:3); *"The builder of Jerusalem is God, the outcast of Israel he will gather in...Praise God O Jerusalem, laud your God O Zion." (Psalms 147:2-12) === Jerusalem in Christianity === For Christianity, Jerusalem's place in the life of Jesus gives it great importance, in addition to its place in the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible, as described above. Jerusalem is the place where Jesus was brought as a child, to be 'presented' at the Temple in Jerusalem (Gospel of Luke 2:22) and to attend festivals (Luke 2:41). According to the Gospels, Jesus preached and healed in Jerusalem, especially in the Temple courts. There is also an account of Jesus' 'cleansing' of the Temple, chasing various traders out of the sacred precincts (Gospel of Mark 11:15). At the end of each of the Gospels, there are accounts of Jesus' Last Supper in an 'upper room' in Jerusalem, his arrest in Gethsemane, his trial, his crucifixion at Golgotha, his burial nearby and his Resurrection of Jesus and ascension. Tradition holds that the place of the Last Supper is the Cenacle, on the second floor of the Mosque of the Prophet David (Masjid an-Nabi Daud), with the supposed tomb of David on the first floor. The place of Jesus' anguished prayer and betrayal, Gethsemane, is probably somewhere near the Church of All Nations on the Mount of Olives. Jesus' trial before Pontius Pilate may have taken place at the Antonia fortress, to the north of the Temple area. Popularly, the exterior pavement where the trial was conducted is beneath the Convent of the Sisters of Zion. Other Christians believe that Pilate tried Jesus at Herod's Palace on Mount Zion. The Via Dolorosa, or way of suffering, is the traditional route to Golgotha, the place of crucifixion, and is an important pilgrimage. The route ends at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (perhaps the most holy place for Christians). The Holy Sepulchre is traditionally believed to be the location of Golgotha and Jesus' nearby tomb. The original church was built in 336 by Constantine I. The Garden Tomb is a popular pilgrimage site near the Damascus Gate. It was suggested by Charles George Gordon that this site, rather than the Holy Sepulchre, is the true place of Golgotha. The Acts of the Apostles and Pauline Epistles show James the Just, the brother of Jesus, as leader of the early Jerusalem church. He and his successors were the focus for Jewish Christians until the destruction of the city by Emperor Hadrian in 135. The exclusion of Jews from the new city of Aelia meant that gentile bishops were appointed under the authority of the Metropolitans of Caesarea and, ultimately, the Patriarch of Antioch. Emperor Constantine I and his mother, Helena, endowed Jerusalem with churches and shrines, making it the foremost centre of Christian pilgrimage. The Council of Chalcedon in 451 raised the bishop of Jerusalem to the rank of patriarch, fifth in rank behind Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch. However, Byzantine politics meant that Jerusalem simply passed from the Syrian jurisdiction of Antioch to the Greek authorities in Constantinople. For centuries, Greek clergy dominated the Jerusalem church. In 638, Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem, handed over the keys of the city to Umar ibn al-Khattab's Muslim forces. The relation between the Christian populace and the Muslim authorities in the city appear to have been good (with the one exception of Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah's execution of the patriarch and destruction of the Holy Sepulchre), and Christian artisans were used to build the Dome of the Rock. On 15 July 1099, the army of the First Crusade captured Jerusalem and brutalised its inhabitants. The crusaders showed equal, if not greater, animosity towards Eastern Christianity to that showed against Muslims. Jerusalem became the capital of a 'Latin Kingdom' with a Latin church and a Latin Patriarch, all under the authority of the Pope. In 1187, when Saladin captured the city, the Holy Sepulchre and many other churches were returned to the care of Eastern Christians. From the 17th century to the 19th century, various Catholic European nations petitioned the Ottoman Empire for Catholic control of the 'holy places'. The Franciscans are the traditional Catholic custodians of the holy places. Control swung back and forth between the western and eastern churches throughout this period. Sultan Abd-ul-Mejid I (1839-1861), perhaps out of despair, published a firman that laid out in detail the exact rights and responsibility of each community at the Holy Sepulchre. This document became known as the ''Status Quo'', and is still the basis for the complex protocol of the shrine. The ''Status Quo'' was upheld by the British Mandate and Jordan. After the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, and the passing of the Old City into Israeli hands, the Knesset passed a law protecting the holy places. Five Christian communities currently have rights in the Holy Sepulchre: the Greek Patriarchate, Latins (Western Rite Roman Catholics), Armenian Orthodox Church, Coptic Orthodox Church and Syriac Orthodox Church. The 'New Jerusalem' is the focus of a vision at the end of the Book of Revelation. It is the perfect city where God lives among his people. === Jerusalem in Islam === Muslims traditionally regard Jerusalem as having a special religious status, partly because of its link with people regarded as Prophets of Islam - particularly David, Solomon, and Jesus - and partly because it was the first qibla (direction of prayer) in Islam before the Kaaba in Makka, but also because the "farthest Mosque" (''Al-Aqsa Mosque'') in verse (Al-Isra:1) of the Qur'an is traditionally interpreted by Muslims as referring to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, on which the mosque of that name now stands: : سبحان الذي أسرى بعبده ليلاً من المسجد الحرام إلى المسجد الأقصى الذي باركنا حوله : Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless (Yusuf Ali's translation) On that night, the night of the Isra and Mi'raj (Rajab 27), Muhammad is believed to have been taken by the flying steed Buraq to visit Jerusalem, where he prayed, and thence heaven, in a single night. Many Muslims celebrate its anniversary with gatherings and feasting, although Wahhabis and several other groups take the position that no regular festivals are permissible except the two Eids. According to ''sahih'' hadith - sayings of Muhammad - recorded by Bukhari and others, Jerusalem was the site of the second mosque built on earth, forty years after Mecca, and is one of only three cities to which pilgrimage is permissible, along with Mecca and Medina. Some hadith, less accepted as reliable, also specify Jerusalem (Bayt al-Maqdis) as the place where all mankind will be gathered on the Day of Judgement. The earliest dated stone inscriptions containing verses from the Qur'an appear to be Abd al-Malik's in the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, from 72 AH. After the conquest of Jerusalem by the armies of the second Caliph, Umar ibn al-Khattab, parts of the city soon took on a Muslim character. According to Muslim historians, the city insisted on surrendering to the Caliph directly rather than to any general, and he signed a pact with its Christian inhabitants, the Covenant of Umar. He was horrified to find the Temple Mount/Haram al Sharif being used as a rubbish dump, and ordered that it be cleaned up and prayed there. However, when the Bishop invited him to pray in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, he refused, lest he create a precedent for its use as a mosque. According to some Muslim historians, he also built a crude mosque on the Temple Mount, which would be replaced by Abd al-Malik. The Byzantine chronicler Theophanes Confessor (751-818) gives a slightly different picture of this event, claiming that Umar "began to restore the Temple at Jerusalem" with encouragement from local Jews. In 688 the Caliph Abd al-Malik built the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount, also known as Noble Sanctuary; in 728 the cupola over the Al-Aqsa Mosque was erected, the same being restored in 758-775 by Al-Mahdi. In 831 Al-Ma'mun restored the Dome of the Rock and built the octagonal wall. In 1016 the Dome was partly destroyed by earthquakes; but it was repaired in 1022. In the context of proposals to radically reinterpret early Islamic history, certain Orientalists, such as John Wansbrough, have proposed that Muhammad's Night Journey to Jerusalem - the Isra and Miraj, one of the principal foundations of Jerusalem's sanctity in Islam - was a later invention intended to account for an otherwise obscure verse. Others, such as Patricia Crone, have proposed that Jerusalem was in fact the original Islamic holy city, and that the sanctity of Mecca and Medina was a later innovation. Neither of these controversial theories enjoys wide acceptance, least of all among Muslims. === Jerusalem in Mandaeanism === In Mandaeanism, a small, ancient Gnostic sect still found in southern Iraq, Jerusalem is considered a city of wickedness, dedicated to the god of Judaism, whom they call Adunay or Yurba and consider to be an evil spirit; according to Sidra d-Yahia 54, Jerusalem is "the stronghold that Adunay built... [he] brought to it falsehood in plenty, and it meant persecution against my ''tarmidia'' (Manda d-Hiia's disciples)." In the Ginza Rba (15.11), it is said to have come into being as a result of the incestuous union of the seven planets with their evil mother Ruha d-Qudsha, who "left lewdness, perversion, and fornication in it. They said: 'Whoever lives in the city of Jerusalem will not mention the name of God.'" (Elsewhere, however, it more prosaically says the city was built by Solomon.) However, Yahya (John the Baptist), an important figure in the religion, is said to have been born there. Later on, in the days of Pontius Pilate, it says the good spirit Anush Utra went there, healed the sick and worked miracles, and made converts, confronting Jesus (whom they consider a false prophet) and refuting his arguments; but its inhabitants opposed him and persecuted the converts, 365 of whom were killed (GR 15.11) or forced out (GR 2.1.) Miriai, a Jewish or Chaldean princess, was converted, and fled to the shores of the Euphrates. This angered Anush Utra, who received permission from God to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, smash the "seven columns", and slay the Jews who lived there, after bringing out the remaining "believers". Elsewhere, the Ginza Rba (18) prophesises that Jerusalem "must flourish for a thousand years, remain a thousand years destroyed, and then the entire Tibil (material world) will be destroyed." In the Abahatan Qadmaiia prayer, repeated during baptism of the dead, the Mandaeans invoke blessings upon the 365 who they believe were killed or forced out of Jerusalem: : "Those 365 priests who came forth from the city of Jerusalem, the city of this ''masiqta'' and ''dukhrana'', a forgiveness of sins may there be for them." == Geography and Demography == ===Geography=== Jerusalem is situated in , upon the southern spur of a plateau the eastern side of which slopes from 2,460 ft. above sea-level north of the Temple in Jerusalem to 2,130 ft. at the southeastern extremity. The western hill is about 2,500 ft. high and slopes southeast from the Judean plateau. Jerusalem is surrounded upon all sides by valleys, of which those on the north are less pronounced than those on the other three sides. The principal two valleys start northwest of the present city. The first runs eastward with a slight southerly bend (the present Wadi al-Joz), then, deflecting directly south (formerly known as "Kidron Valley," the modern Wadi Sitti Maryam), divides the Mount of Olives from the city. The second runs directly south on the western side of the city, turns eastward at its southeastern extremity, then runs directly east, and joins the first valley near Bir Ayyub ("Job's Well"). It was called in olden times the "Valley of Hinnom," and is the modern Wadi al-Rababi, which is not to be identified with the first-mentioned valley. A third valley, commencing in the northwest where is now the Damascus Gate, ran south-southeasterly down to the Pool of Siloam, and divided the lower part into two hills (the lower and the upper cities of Josephus). This is probably the later Tyropoeon Valley. A fourth valley led from the western hill (near the present Jaffa Gate) over to the Temple area: it is represented in modern Jerusalem by David Street. A fifth cut the eastern hill into a northern and a southern part. Later Jerusalem was thus built upon four spurs.Today, neighboring towns are Bethlehem and Beit Jala at the southern city border, and Abu Dis to the East. === Neighborhoods, places and monuments === * ''See: List of places in Jerusalem'' Jerusalem has a large number of places of religious and historic significance including the Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and Church of the Holy Sepulchre, among many others (See ''Religious Significance'' above). It is also home to a number of key Israeli government buildings, including the Kenesset and Israeli Supreme Court, and Israeli institutions, including Hebrew University. === Demographics === ''See the Demographics of Jerusalem'' When it first appears in historical records, Jerusalem was inhabited by a Canaanite tribe. The Bible specifies them as the Jebusites, and says they ruled it until its conquest by King David. After taking control of it from the Canaanites, Jews formed the majority of the population of Jerusalem until its destruction by Rome in the second century. Following that, the city's historical demographics were uncertain, although it probably became a majority Muslim city by 1525. By the late 19th century, Jews were again a majority. According to the current official census as of 2003, Jerusalem's population was 693,200 people, of which 464,500 (67.0%) were Jews and 228,700 (33.0%) were non-Jews (Note that this number is for the expanded municpality of Jerusalem as claimed by Israel). == Jerusalem Today == === Mayors and Government === ''See the List of mayors of Jerusalem'' The current mayor of Jerusalem is Uri Lupolianski, member of the local United Torah Judaism faction and the first Haredi Judaism Jew to attain this position in the city. === Museums === * The Israel Museum * The Rockefeller Museum. * The Ticho House. === Transportation === [[Image:View_of_Jerusalem_(small).jpg|right|thumbnail|200px|A view of the Old City of Jerusalem taken from the Jewish Cemetery on the Mount of Olives.]]Begin Boulevard is Jerusalem's inner city expressway. It goes North to South from Atarot to Malcha. The Jerusalem Central Bus Station is Jerusalem's intercity bus bus station. It is served by Egged and Dan Bus Cooperative buses. City buses are are run by Egged. Israel Railways operates train service to Southern Jerusalem with 2 stops: The Biblical Zoo and Jerusalem Malcha near the Malcha Mall. In 2009, there will be a new high speed train line from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem which will terminate at a new underground station under construction underneath the Jerusalem Central Bus Station. There are future plans to extend the line from the Jerusalem Central Bus Station to the current Jerusalem Malcha Train Station, the terminus of the current historic (now upgraded) railroad. Atarot Airport is Jerusalem's airport but it is currently not in use due to the security situation. == Born in Jerusalem == *Saint Angelus (Catholic saint) *Fathi Arafat (physician) *Suha Arafat (public figure) *Mili Avital (actress) *Yosef Avni (activist) *Chaim Joseph David Azulai (author) *Elisha Ben Abuyah (heretic) *Saeb Erekat (politician) *Yuval Gabay (drummer) *Mordechai Gur (general) *David Grossman (author) *Tzahi Hanegbi (politician) *Amira Hass (journalist) *Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni (commander) *Amin al-Husayni (public figure) *Eliahu Inbal (orchestral conductor) *Flavius Josephus (historian) *Yousef Al-Khalidi (politician) *George Khouri (victim) *Isaac Luria (scholar and mystic) *Raphael Maklouf (sculptor) *al-Muqaddasi (geographer) *Nathan (son of David) (prince) *Yitzhak Navon (president) *Sari Nusseibeh (academic) *Amos Oz (author) *Natalie Portman (actress) *ibn Qudamah (Islamic jurist) *Yitzhak Rabin (politician) *Edward Said (literary theorist) *Adin Steinsaltz (religious scholar) *Sirhan Sirhan (murderer) *Ayelet Waldman (author) *William of Tyre (archbishop) *Yigael Yadin (archeologist) *A. B. Yehoshua (novelist) *Eli Yishai (politician) *Munib Younan (bishop) *Nissim Zeev (politician) == See also == * Jerusalem syndrome * Timeline of Jerusalem * List of Holy Cities == External reference and links == ===Official Site=== *[http://www.jerusalem.muni.il/jer_main/f1_main.asp?lng=2/ Official website of the Municipality of Jerusalem] ===Photographs=== * [http://haqaonline.lightuponlight.com/pg/thumbnails.php?album=19 Pictures of the Mosques in Jerusalem] * [http://www.jerusalem-archives.org/index1.html Jerusalem archives], historical photographs of Jerusalem focusing mainly on the experience of the Jews. * Portal of [http://www.jerusalemshots.com/en Jerusalem Photos] ===Maps=== *[http://www.usm.maine.edu/~maps/exhibit1/ University of Maine Historical Map Collection], features European, Arab, and Jewish maps of the city dating back over 600 years. Highlights the role of Jerusalem in the history of map-making. ===Status of the City=== *[http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1980_1989/Basic%20Law-%20Jerusalem-%20Capital%20of%20Israel Basic Law: Jerusalem, Capital of Israel, Government of Israel], the Israeli law making Jerusalem the capital of Israel. *[http://www.pna.gov.ps/Jerusalem/index.asp Palestinian position on Jerusalem] from the Palestinian National Authority *[http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/jerutoc.html Jewish Position on Jerusalem] ===History=== * [http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/jerusalem/ History Channel site on the history of Jerusalem] *[http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/jeruhistoc.html Articles on the history of Jerusalem] from the Jewish Virtual Library *[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2001/israel_and_the_palestinians/issues/1682594.stm BBC article on Jerusalem] ===News and Media=== * [http://www.jpost.com The Jerusalem Post], oldest and largest Israeli daily newspaper in English, previously the Palestine Post. * [http://www.jmcc.org/ Jerusalem Media and Communications Centre], group of Palestinian reporters with daily news reports from East Jerusalem ===Institutions=== * [http://www.alquds.edu/index.php Al Quds Arab University of Jerusalem] * [http://www.huji.ac.il/huji/eng/ Hebrew University of Jerusalem] * [http://www.yadvashem.org/ Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial] * [http://www.imj.org.il/ Israel Museum] ===Books=== * Wasserstein, Bernard (2002). ''Divided Jerusalem: The Struggle for the Holy City''. New Haven and London: Yale University Press. ISBN 0-300-09730-1. Capitals in Asia Jerusalem Holy cities bn:জেরুসালেম fa:اورشلیم ga:Iarúsailéim la:Hierosolyma lv:Jeruzāleme simple:Jerusalem
Jerusalem
ARCHIVED TALK ABOUT JERUSALEM AS CAPITAL OF ISRAEL, Talk:Jerusalem/capital Talk:Jerusalem/Archive 1 | Talk:Jerusalem/Archive 2 ==Sheesh== \\\\\Much of the discussion below could be avoided by noting that there is some question as to the legitimacy of Israel. If one accepts Israel as being legit, them there is a q of Jerusalem as a legitmate terrritory, let alone capital, thereof. Further anyone can say anyhing they want, like NYC is the capital of Israel, it certainly has claims upon the title, or Washington DC is the capital..., or Hollywood... but the more certain rules are by establishing a proper definition..., and authorities where the senses fail. Some say it's the capital because it once was, on the authotity of the Gaseous Invertrabrate War God Of the Bronze Age ( GIWGOBA ), that's good enough for many but not all. So J is a disputed capital of I, or I says J is the capital of..., or many Zionauts and fellow travellers say... etc is as far as one can go without sacrificing credibility to those who care about such things.//// To use a Middle Eastern expression, sheesh! All we need to say is: * Israel regards Jerusalem as its capital, although hardly any other country recognizes it as such. * The seat of the Israeli government is in Jerusalem. * The X, Y, Z & Q embassies are in Jerusalem, reflecting official recognition by those countries that it is Israel's rightful capital. * The other N embassies are in Tel Aviv, because these countries do not want to be seen as "recognizing" Jerusalem as Israel's capital. We can also say: * Two elements fuel the controversy. * Many countries dispute Israel's claim to all of Jerusalem, regarding parts A, B & C as occupied territory. For these countries, to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's captial would be to legitimize Israel's claim on "occupied territory". * Some countries or nationalistic movements regard Jerusalem as the rightful capital of Palestine -- not of Israel. --User:Ed Poor 12:19, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) I ''strongly'' object to the first point in this proposal. It suggests that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is merely the POV of Israel, and that the question is disputed. As I succesfully argued above, this is not a POV issue, but a matter of factual accuracy, which should not be compromised. Saying "Jerusalem is the capital" would also eliminate the need for the second point. Details of which countries base their embassies where are not important enough to get in to the first pargraph. There's much (much!) more to Jerusalem than a list of embassies. User:Uriber 12:30, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Sorry, but I don't know any other way of putting it. Unless you want the more cumbersome: :According to Israel and 4 other countries, Jerusulem is the capital of Israel. In an odd turn of events, Israel is the only country in the world whose capital is not recognized by the world community at large. This is largely because... --User:Ed Poor 12:56, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) Except this is, in addition to being cumbersome, also false. You assume here that any country not basing its embassy in Jerusalem actually does not recognize it as capital - which is of course not true (see the US example). Anyway, as I said (many!) times before, the first paragraph should not focus on the diplomatic formal concept of "recognition" (mainly, because there is no such concept when it comes to capital - see Zero's comments), but rather on the factual status of Jerusalem - namely, it being capital. Once again, there is no dispute here. No-one, throughout this entire discussion has claimed that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is false (i.e., that it is not the capital), or even provided evidence that anybody on earth believes that it is false. There is simply no dispute that Jerusalem ''is'' the capital of Israel - and therefore this fact should be clearly noted in the first few sentences of the article, as it is for any other capital. Isuues of "recognition", disputes about "legitimacy", and visions about the future should all be explained later, after stating the undisputed facts. User:Uriber 13:07, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Ed replies: Don't get me wrong, Uriber. I personally believe that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. But some Arabs dispute this, particularly those calling themselves "Palestinians". ::Please provide at least one quote of anybody (be that Palestinian or other) saying "Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel", with reasonable justification. (People saying "Jerusalem should not be the capital of Israel", "Jerusalem being capital of israel is illegitimate", etc. don't count, ofcourse) User:Uriber 14:06, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) *The Council for the Advancement of Arab-British Understanding (CAABU) discovered that Harper Collins' 2002 reprint of their "Mini Atlas of the World" states on pages 136/7 that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel despite the fact that the UN and the international community has never recognised Jerusalem as Israel's capital. [http://www.caabu.org/campaigns/atlas.html] *The publishers have stated that it will add a footnote against Jerusalem where it appears in country listings, which will state "De facto capital. Disputed". [http://www.mediareviewnet.com/Publisher%20agrees%20not%20to%20name%20Jerusalem%20as%20capital%20of%20Israel.htm] ::This was brought up before (you ''did'' read the entire discussion before jumping into this, right?) Anyway - as I said when it it was first brought up, it proves nothing. Harper Colins' are commited to keeping everybody happy (and ultimately, to their sales figures) not to NPOV. User:Uriber This short article sounds neutral, but check it out and see for yourself: http://www.centerpeace.org/factsheets/fact-sheet-jerusalem.htm ::From this article: ''"Jerusalem is [...] claimed as its capital by two peoples - Israelis and Palestinians."'' Is this even English? Anyway, it clearly deals with "claims", not with the current factual status of Jerusalem - so it is more-or-less irrelevant to the question at hand. User:Uriber 14:06, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :::Claims are entirely relevant to the discussion. It is not the place of Wikipedia to decide the factual status of Jerusalem, but the report the fact that one group claims X, one group claims Y, etc. That's exactly how Wikipedia:NPOV works. We can argue till we're blue in the face over whether "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is true fact, false fact, or opinion, but there should be no argument at all with the ''fact'' that "The government of Israel considers Jerusalem to be its capital," and "Palestinians dispute the claim of Israel to Jerusalem." The fact that these people claim these things is indisputable and well-documented. User:Jdavidb 20:38, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) Oh, and "sheesh" is not a Middle Eastern expression. To the best of my knowledge, it's an Eastern European Jewish expression. :-) User:Uriber 14:06, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :If I provide enough baksheesh to the right party, can I make "sheesh" a Middle Eastern expression? Okay, you're obviously right about ''that''. And I agree that Jerusalem is Israel's capital -- because I recognize any nation's right to designate any of its cities as its capital. :But did you know that a certain group (hint: starts with A) (a) ''disputes'' Israel's claim to Jerusalem (can't designate what you don't "have") and (b) has managed to get all but a handful of the world's nations to go along with them (clever devils, aren't they?). ::None of them claim that Israel does not ''have'' Jerusalem. All they say is that Israel ''should not'' have Jerusalem - which is their POV and they are entitled to it. However the facts (as opposed to what ''should'' be) are not disputed - Jeusalem ''is'' Israel's capital. User:Uriber 15:21, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Now, between you and me this dispute may sound as silly as the flat earth theory, but to be both accurate and NPOV shouldn't we say something about the dispute? --User:Ed Poor 15:09, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::No, the dispute over the ''future'' of Jerusaelm is not silly. It is very serious. However, the dispute about the ''present'' status of Jerusalem (which is what we are concerned with here) simply does not exist. And I have no problem mentioning (and even discussing in depth) the disputes that ''do'' exist. But only after the facts are laid out. User:Uriber 15:21, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) Sounds like there are two issues here, which I conflated into one. #Whether or not Jerusalem is the capital of Israel -- a matter of fact #Whether or not various nations recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel --User:Ed Poor 19:16, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) I think you got it backward. Whether or not various nations recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is a fact. Whether or not Jerusalem is the capital is an opinion. User:Anthony DiPierro User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning 21:17, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :To Ed: Exactly! That's what I'm trying to explain to people here for the last couple of months. By treating those questions separately, we can give clear and simple answers to both of them: Israel is the capital of israel, but most governments don't recognize it as such. Now that you got it, will you help me set this straight in the article? User:Uriber 21:43, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) Uriber, whether or not East Jerusalem can be considered a part of Israel is certainly disputed. As such, it is also disputable whether Jerusalem can be the "indivisible" capital of Israel... User:John Kenney 21:35, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I never suggested using the word "indivisible" in the article. So what's your point here? User:Uriber 21:43, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) Well, the official position of Israel is that ''Jerusalem'', not ''West Jerusalem'' is the capital of Israel. No other country in the world recognizes East Jerusalem as being part of Israel. So ''Jerusalem'' (as opposed to ''West Jerusalem'') can't be the capital of Israel unless we recognize East Jerusalem to be part of Israel. BTW, if you say "Jerusalem ''is'' the capital of Israel, but most governments don't recognize it as such," then that means you're saying that those governments are ''wrong''. How is that NPOV? User:John Kenney 23:17, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Sorry for the late reply - I somehow missed this before. :I previously explained in length why saying "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" does not imply that "all of Jerusalem is indisputably part of Israel". Go back to the archives, and read what I said. :"West Jerusalem" and "East Jerusalem" are basically historic concepts. None of them exists as a separate entity today, and therefore none of them can be capital of any nation. :If I would say "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but most people think it is not" - than I would be saying that most people are wrong - which is obviously not NPOV. I explained previously in detail the difference between an individual (or a collective) holding a belief (or having a POV) on a subject, and, on the other hand, the formal concept of "diplomatic recognition" - which is unrelated, and does not imply any POV. Again - look in the archives if you want details. User:Uriber 19:18, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) *I can certianly believe I missed something, and if this has been brought up, forgive me, I don't mean to butt into the discussion, but Israel declared jerusalem something like its "Eternal and undivided" capital (I think in 1950). As far as I know, theres nothign to stop Israel from declaring western jerusalem as it's capital, it's the inclusion of the rest of it, the occupied territories part - that problematic, and denied by other countires. User:Datepalm17 ---- ==Capital== The problem here is that nobody has defined capital. The page given is a circular definition (capital is the seat of government, seat of goverment is the capital). Define seat of government. User:Bensaccount 23:19, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) Seat of government is the location of the government. - Wikipedia Now the real question is where is Israel's government located. User:Bensaccount 23:23, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :To quote the article: "All the branches of Israeli government (Presidential, Legislative, Judicial, and Administrative) are seated in Jerusalem". User:MyRedDice 23:28, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) By the way, capital is not identical with seat of government. Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands, but the seat of government is The Hague. User:John Kenney 23:31, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) You are on the wrong page. Go to capital or seat of government. User:Bensaccount 23:33, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) God you're obnoxious. User:John Kenney 23:53, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) I'm Wiktionary:Objective. User:Bensaccount 23:57, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) Jerusalem IS the capital of Israel every book on countries i read since i was five years old stated that!--User:Plato 01:01, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC) ---- ==Government== A government is an organization that has the power to make and enforce laws for a certain territory. - Wikipedia ---- ==Regarding Martin's compromise== I accepted Martin's suggestion ("under Israeli law") before. I deeply regret doing so - this is an awful solution, not much different than the one I was fighting against to begin with. However, I did accept it (what was I thinking?), and I feel it would be wrong of me to remove it now if it's put up again. However, this applies only to the exact phrasing as it was in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Jerusalem&oldid=3058572 this] edit - including the fact that the capital issue was on the first paragraph. I regard myself free to actively object to any other formulation (even if only different by a comma), and to replace any such phrasing by one which I find to be more correct. User:Uriber 23:21, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I've moved the capital issue into the first paragraph. User:MyRedDice 23:28, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I'm interested in why you so deeply regret accepting my compromise. From what you said, I thought your only issue with it was wordiness? What have I failed to understand? User:MyRedDice 23:31, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::For a much better answer than the one I gave you below (a few hours ago), please see my response to Slrubenstein's suggestion, further below User:Uriber 13:58, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::Because the convoluted wording sends a strong message to the reader that Jerusalem is somehow not "really" the capital - the same way e.g. London is. Think - would you accept "London is the capital of the UK under British law, and functions as capital"? It sounds silly, and makes you look for some hidden message ("why don't they just say it's the capital, then?"). Since Jerusalem is the capital of Israel in exactly the same manner that London is the capital of the UK, I can't really be happy about and formulation which I wouldn't find acceptable for London. User:Uriber 08:33, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::Also, the suggested wording implies (perhaps not as strongly as other suggested formulations, but still) that Jerusalem being capital of Israel is a matter of POV. Throughout this entire discussion, nobody actually presented evidence that "Jerusalem is the Capital of Israel" is, in fact, disputed (e.g., a quote from someone saying "Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel"). What's the point of successfully arguing, if you then have to give in and compromise? I have a natural tendency to try and compromise when I'm faced with someone with obvious good intentions (such as you). But looking at the end result later, I realized that compromising on this issue (to such a degree as I did) was wrong. Goodwill should not be allowed to supersede good arguments - which those opposing to "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel (period)" have none of. User:Uriber 09:51, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :One more thing - Uriber, would you consider "Under Israeli law, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" (IE, reverse the order), or would that be as unacceptable as the "According to Israeli law, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" phrasing favoured by Wik which you disapprove of? ::I'm afraid I won't accept it. Just like "accordnig to...", it puts the emphasis on a phrase which appears to be limiting the sense in which Jerusaelm is the capital, instead of on the main fact - that it ''is'' the capital. This might look like a silly distinction, but since the "capital under Israeli law" formulation is already at very edge of what I'm willing to accept (actually, several inches beyond that edge), I'm not willing to move any further away from what I think is the most correct formulation ("Jerusalem is the capital of Israel."), which is also NPOV. User:Uriber 08:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Another thought that occured to me was writing "Under Israeli law, Jerusalem is the eternal and indivisible capital of Israel". I'm not sure how well that would fly - probably not so well. User:MyRedDice 23:43, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::As you suspected - this is even worse. The article isn't about Israeli law. It's about Jerusalem. User:Uriber 08:38, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::: Ok, thanks for all your responses. User:MyRedDice 21:30, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Capital is a location of lawmaker issue. There is no law I am aware of that says thay Jerusalem is a capital (prove me wrong). So you would not say "under Israeli law, its the capital", but rather "As the location of the government, Jerusalem is the capital."User:Bensaccount 23:52, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) (minor semantics really) :I disagree that location of the government is the sole determining factor for being the capital, in all senses of that word. User:MyRedDice 00:25, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::You are on the wrong page. If you want to discuss what determines a capital go to capital. Currently it is just location. User:Bensaccount 02:45, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::: Mote, eye, log, eye. User:MyRedDice 21:28, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :::That's absolutely ''not'' what it says. Note: ''It may consist of or be separate from the actual seat of government.'' Thus, Amsterdam. No one would contest that Jerusalem is Israel's seat of government. User:John Kenney 23:19, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) There is an Israeli law which says that Jerusalem is its capital. User:John Kenney 23:54, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) Does it say that the government cannot legally leave Jerusalem? User:Bensaccount 00:14, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I may be back later. User:Bensaccount 00:15, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :: From the article, there is a 1980 Israeli law claiming Jer. as Isr.'s "eternal and indivisible capital". User:MyRedDice 00:25, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::What a ridiculous law. User:Bensaccount 02:50, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) I don't like the phrasing where the disputed point about the capital is placed before the sentence on who actually controls the city. Whether or not Jerusalem is the capital is trivia compared to which country exerts control over it. But in the interests of getting a stable version of the beginning text, I'll leave it unless someone else edits it first. User:Anthony DiPierro User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning 10:02, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) : Thanks Anthony. User:MyRedDice 21:18, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ==Proposal by Slrubenstein== May I propose the following introduction to the article? :Jerusalem (Hebrew Language: ירושלים ''Yerushalayim'', Arabic language: القدس ''al-Quds'') is located at (latitude, longitude) and has a population of 630,000. It is the largest city in, and official capital of Israel, although the status of the city under international law is unsettled. Jerusalem consists of an Old City, itself divided into Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Armenian Quarters; a New City; and a surrounding district. After the break-up of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, Great Britain controlled Palestine through a mandate of the League of Nations. From 1923 to 1948 Jerusalem was the capital of Palestine. When the United Nations recommended a partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab State, it recommended that Jerusalem be an international city, although both Jews and Arabs claimed it. After the declaration of a cease-fire in 1948, Jews controlled the New City and declared it their capital; Jordan occupied and annexed the Old City. During the Six-Day War Israel occupied the Old City. In 1980 Israel declared a unified Jerusalem its capital, although in Resolution 478 the United Nations Security Council censured Israel’s act and declared it null and void. Under Israeli law; it serves as the country's seat of government and otherwise functions as capital, but most countries maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv. I have tried to follow the format used in Wikipedia for other cities, while calling attention to Jerusalem's contested situation. User:Slrubenstein I don't think you will have much luck with this paragraph due to the ongoing argument over the bolded sentence. It still has not been decided on this page what determines that a city is a capital. User:Bensaccount 13:15, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::Here's my take at the paragraph attempting to fix the bolded sentence, which some regard as a problem (thanks, Uncle Ed, for your sheesh post which suggested this change): :::Jerusalem (Hebrew Language: ירושלים ''Yerushalayim'', Arabic language: القدس ''al-Quds'') is located at (latitude, longitude) and has a population of 630,000. It is the largest city in Israel, which regards the city as its capital, although the status of the city under international law is unsettled. Jerusalem consists of an Old City, itself divided into Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Armenian Quarters; a New City; and a surrounding district. After the break-up of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, Great Britain controlled Palestine through a mandate of the League of Nations. From 1923 to 1948 Jerusalem was the capital of Palestine. When the United Nations recommended a partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab State, it recommended that Jerusalem be an international city, although both Jews and Arabs claimed it. After the declaration of a cease-fire in 1948, Jews controlled the New City and declared it their capital; Jordan occupied and annexed the Old City. During the Six-Day War Israel occupied the Old City. In 1980 Israel declared a unified Jerusalem its capital, although in Resolution 478 the United Nations Security Council censured Israel’s act and declared it null and void. Under Israeli law; it serves as the country's seat of government and otherwise functions as capital, but most countries maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv. ::Meanwhile, let me again say that it is not for Wikipedia to decide what is and is not a capital, but merely to report the claims of various groups. User:Jdavidb 20:52, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I've looked over the talk page and earlier versions of the article and see no explanation of why Jerusalem is not the official capital of Israel. What is your definition of "capital?" Do you propose changing the articles on Rome and Paris? User:Slrubenstein You underestimate the importance of knowing what a capital is before writing about one. I have searched on google and I can't find any useful definitions of capital. The wikipedia definition is actually the best out there. (Britannica and Encarta have no page for capital). OneLook produces hundreds of dictionary entries that seem to all define capital vaguely as the "seat of government". Wikipedia says that a capital is the seat of government but sometimes the seat of government is seperate from the capital. (huh?). User:Bensaccount 13:53, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Slrubenstein, while I'm sure you mean well, I do not think that seeking a compromise solution is the correct way to go in this case (although I have cooperated with such efforts before - only to regret it later). Before we decide on exact phrasing, etc., we have to answer one question: Is Jerusalem the capital of Israel? This might have three different answers: #Yes #No #The matter is disputed, i.e. some people believe it is the capital, while others believe it is not the capital. If we reach the conclusion that the correct answer is 3, then we should seek some formulation stating all POVs on the matter, or concentrate on laying down the very basic facts, avoiding the question altogether. This is where compromises might be useful. If, however, we reach the conclusion that the correct answer is 1 (as I believe is the ultimate outcome of the discussion going on here for the last several months), there should be no further objection to simply saying "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" (while of course later describing disputes regarding sovereignty, diplomatic status, etc.) User:Uriber 13:41, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Geez Uriber. Do you really think that everybody on earth believes Jerusalem is the capital of Israel? Well, let's end this argument here and now. I DO NOT BELIEVE JERUSALEM IS THE CAPITAL OF ISRAEL. There. Now I have proven that teh correct and logical answer is 3. I don't want you throwing arguments at me about why it really IS the capital, because you aren't going to change my opinion. The fact of the matter is, NOT EVERYBODY BELIEVES JERUSALEM TO BE THE CAPITAL OF THE MODERN STATE OF ISRAEL. If you really must say it IS the capital of Israel, we should say it is the capital of Palestine as well because Palestinians lay similar claims to the city as their capital. Hell, we even have an article regarding why some people think Kyoto is the capital of Japan instead of Tokyo, even though there are far fewer people who think that than people who believe Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. And, as mentioned earlier, seat of government is NOT the sole determinant of a nation's capital, eg The Hague vs. Amsterdam in the Netherlands, or cases where there is more than one seat of gov't such as South Africa (I believe Durban is the location of the judicial branch, Johannesburg is the location of the... oh crap, nevermind)... so HAH! - User:Node ue :But urbier, that's not correct. Wikipedia editors are not to concern themselves with deciding the facts of the matter, but only reporting the various views. Wikipedia does not need to decide if Jerusalem is or is not the capital; only what people's views are. So Wikipedia should report: :#Some people (group A) believe Jerusalem is the capital :#Why group A believes Jerusalem is the capital :#Some people (group B) believe Jerusalem is not the capital :#Why group B believes Jerusalem is not the capital :#Why group B rejects group A's reason for believing Jerusalem is the capital :#Why group A rejects group B's reason for believing Jerusalem is the capital :#Group C's beliefs, reasons, etc. as above, if applicable, etc. :#The fact that many Wikipedians are fed up with the whole argument. :) :There is no need to answer the question "Is Jerusalem the capital of Israel," and, in fact, answering the question is irrelevant because you can't report it in the article. See Wikipedia:NPOV User:Jdavidb 20:46, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) I don't think you know what a capital is. User:Bensaccount 14:01, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Personally I believe "1," although my understanding of the UN resolutions is that the legal issues is ''not'' whether or not Jerusalem is the capital, but rather, what are the territorial boundaries of the Israeli city, "Jerusalem?" (in other words, the New city can be Israel's capital, but Israel has no right to annex the Old City). In any event, since many people dispute Israel's capital, an NPOV article must acknowledge what you have as "3." And this is exactly what I did in the part of my paragraph that Bensaccount bolded. Jerusalem is the capital; its status is unsettled -- these are both facts. So I do not see the problem, yet. Can you and Besnaccount be clearer? User:Slrubenstein I don't think you know what a capital is. User:Bensaccount 14:01, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Hmmm. I don't think you know what a capital is. But that is neither here nor there. This is an article on Jerusalem. I went to the Jerusalme webpage and it describes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. I went to the Israel webpage and it says that it's capital is Jerusalem. I went to the webpages of Rome and Paris and London, and they all identify these cities as "capitals," so I know that Wikipedia articles are concerned with identifying "capitals." That is ALL that I need to know to write this encyclopedia article. This is an encyclopedia. Perhaps you should check the various community portal pages on what Wikipedia is and is not. This is not a forum for personal essays or primary research; it is simply not appropriate to depate political or philosophical issues here. User:Slrubenstein :::In other words you are telling me to get lost because you want to fight with Uriber about something you both know nothing about. User:Bensaccount 14:23, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :"In other words?" No, stick to the words I use -- I didn't say "get lost." I said that this is an article on Jerusalem, and should conform as best possible to other Wikipedia articles on cities. Wikipedia always mentions in the first paragraph when a city is a capital city. Jerusalem is Israel's capital city, so we must mention that. Since there are disputes concerning the status of Jerusalem, we should also mention that. You are concerned with "what a capital is." If you are concerned with this, great! Do some research on different kinds of capitals, and the legal traditions concerning the designation of capitals, and work on the article "capital!" Don't "get lost," I encourage you to do the serious research Wikipedia needs. But if you are interested in learning more about the idea of "capital," go work on the appropriate article!User:Slrubenstein ::I dont care what a capital is. You need to, because you are arguing about it. User:Bensaccount 14:48, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::Please explain what you mean when you say "many people dispute Israel's capital". Does it mean "many people believe that Jerusalem is not Israel's capital (excluding people who believe this as a result of simple ignorance or misinformation)"? Had it been so, I would have agreed that the correct answer is "3", and that there is a NPOV issue. However, I do not think that this is what you mean. What you mean is that many people think something like "Israel has no right to have Jerusalem as its capital". That's a fair statement 9false, but fair) - however, it has nothing to do with the question I presented - and so it leaves that question undisputedly answered "Yes". And the fact that the UN resolution deals with territorial boundaries, not the question of capital, just goes to strenghthen my point about the capital issue being undisputed. User:Uriber 13:55, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) I'd say the answer is 2. If the vast majority of the countries in the world don't recognize the city as the capital, then it's not the capital. User:Anthony DiPierro User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning 01:19, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) How can you write about a capital if you havent defined what a capital is? User:Bensaccount 13:59, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) For Bensaccount -- interesting theoretical question, worth considering on some other page (where you can consider Wittgenstein and other philosophers of language). The fact remeans, people ''do'' talk about words without defining them, and manage to communicate quite effectively. If you do not understand how, take a philosophy or linguistics course. You may use words without defining them but you definately do not communicate effectively. In fact you do not communication at all. User:Bensaccount 14:05, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :When I see you raising this point on the pages for Rome, Paris, London, etc., I will take you seriously. ::For those pages the capital definition which I currently have created is sufficient. (see Seat of government). You cant argue that the meaning of words is not necessary for their use. Its absurd. User:Bensaccount 14:16, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) For Uriber, I understand your point and that you are trying to be systematic and constructive. nevertheless, I think you are going off on an unnecessary and onconstructive tangent. In my proposal, I wrote "It is the largest city in, and official capital of Israel, although the status of the city under international law is unsettled." Is this in your view a false statement? User:Slrubenstein :It is not a false statement. However, it is an incomplete one (because it only emphesizes Jerusalem's ''official'' status as capital, pushing off the very important fact that it is also the capital ''in practice'' to the very end of a very long introduction). I also believe that the factual correctness of information presented is not the only criterion by which a text should be judged, and that the manner in which this information is presented is important as well. If you systematically avoid saying "Jerusalem is the capital" (which is the standard wording on articles about other capitals), then at least some readers will get the impression that in some way, Jerusalem is not the capital (even if this is not explicitly said anywhere). User:Uriber 14:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Thanks -- this is a reasonable response. Does this mean that you would accept the paragraph I proposed, if I delete "official?" User:Slrubenstein :Yes, I would happily accept it. I have some aesthetic reservations regarding having so detailed historic information in what is supposed to be an introduction paragraph - but this is a matter of style, not something I'd go to war over. User:Uriber 15:16, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) For Uriber, you dont have to answer Slurbenstein because he doesnt know how to communicate. User:Bensaccount 14:09, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :You will have to fogive me for respectfully disagreeing with you, and answering Slurbenstein in spite of your giving me permission not to do so. User:Uriber 14:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) To Slrub: "official" is ''ok'', but I think it's a little vague. I prefer "under Israeli law", which is more precise. Also, where you write "Under Israeli law; it serves as the country's seat of government and otherwise functions as capital" - in this sentence, I don't believe the qualifier "under Israeli law" is required. I prefer the current formulation, all in all. To Uriber: I think you're missing an option to the question "Is Jerusalem the capital of Israel?" My answer would be "It depends what you mean by that". It is the capital under Israeli law. It is also the capital in practice. It may or may not be the capital under international law (I don't think we ever got a firm answer on that). It's not the internationally recognised capital. It's disputed whether Jerusalem is possessed by Israel, as "capital of Israel" implies by use of the possessive tense. So there are many layers here, and it's not a simple yes or no answer. By way of contrast, London is the capital of the UK under international law, is internationally recognised as such, and everyone agrees that the UK possesses London. So, for London it's much simpler, and thus "London is the capital of the UK" is trickier. User:MyRedDice 21:34, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ==Rearrangement== I moved around some of the sections, so that new readers will have a more pleasant -- and less jarring -- experience. If they want to use the Table of Contents link to skip down to the juicy, er, controversial part, they are free to do so. Also, I did a word count, and the big "history of Jerusalem" section is roughly 50% of the article. Anybody want to move that to History of Jerusalem? --User:Ed Poor 13:39, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :No, the "rearrangement" is completely unacceptable. Mentioning that Jerusalem is capital under israeli law, etc. in the introduction paragraph was an important part the agreement I reached with Martin. User:Uriber 14:44, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) : Agreed - that Jer. is (in many senses) the capital of Isr. is worthy of an early mention. User:MyRedDice 21:35, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ==Summary== Uriber wants to write one thing about Jerusalem as capital. Slurbenstein wants to write another thing about Jerusalem as capital. I find it interesting to see how these kinds of conflicts get resolved which is why I am here. There are several pathways that are possible if progress is to be made: #One person steps down for no reason. #A vote is held #One of you proves your point of view by presenting your argument based on the definition of capital. In my mind the only fair way is option 3. User:Bensaccount 15:03, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Example for option 3: When King Solomon built the Temple on Mount Moriah, Jerusalem was sanctified and became the international religious center of the Jewish people. Solomon also built his palace, the city was fortified, treasure houses were built, as were markets and palaces for the king's wives. It was largely due to the many wonderful buildings that Jerusalem became one of the world's most beautiful cities during this period. Furthermore, economic prosperity during Solomon's reign consolidated Jerusalem's position as an important city, the capital of Israel in the eyes of many nations. (Moving foreward by trying to define what makes a capital). User:Bensaccount 15:06, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) I do not commit myself to that definition of capital by the way. User:Bensaccount 15:07, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Your account above does not explain why Solomon built his temple on Mt. Moriah. Also, why is your account a better explanation of why Jerusalme is Israel's capital, than the fact that the Website for Israel names Jerusalem its capital? By the way, if it isn't clear to you, when the article says Jerusalem is Israel's capital it means the modern state of Israel, not the Ancient Kingdom of Israel! User:Slrubenstein Again, this is an attempt to determine what makes a capital. So when you ask the question "why is your account a better explanation of why Jerusalme is Israel's capital, than the fact that the Website for Israel names Jerusalem its capital?" That is exactly the point im making, (what determines a capital).User:Bensaccount 17:18, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :A capital is a center of important activity. In states, the most important activity is governance. However, in some states (e.g. some kingdoms) the "capital" is wherever the King's court is, and the king's court moves from palace to palace. In many states, especially republics, the political capital is fixed. Since law is a function of governance, usually only the political capital is official (this is the case with Jerusalem) -- the economic capital is evident (the city with the largest port, manufacturing, or financial sectors). Some countries have two capitals -- political and economic. In some states the political capital is divided (the representative branch is seated in one city, the executive branch in another (In Israel, all branches of government are seated in Jerusalem). In societies with official religions there can be a religious capital as well, although in many states the religious, economic and political capital are the same. So it varies from state to state and time to time. User:Slrubenstein Well anyways it seems that it has been agreed upon that Jerusalem is the capital (Its too bad that the only result from all this discussion that points towards towards this conclusion, is what you just said, but I guess explaining after resolution is better than resolving and never explaining why. Just dont tell me it was never an issue.). If this issue rearises that last point you made will be the only outcome from this discussion that helps, since the still hasn't been formally defined in the article. User:Bensaccount 17:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :No, it has not been agreed upon. We cannot let the article become the basis for someone to say, "According to Wikipedia, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel". Because that would mean we were taking sides in a dispute. ::I'm deeply saddened that you are still holding this view. You did not respond to my request to provide some evidence that such a dispute exists. I for one very much hope that the article ''will'' become the basis for someone to say, "According to Wikipedia, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel". Because that would mean that that someone had learned something from Wikipedia - something that is not disputed, but that a surprising number of people do not know. User:Uriber 18:08, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Now, don't get me wrong: I'm on the same side. But as an editor I have to acknowledge that there is a dispute. Don't try to sweep it under the rug. It makes the rug lumpy, and eventually it will start to rot and make a big stink. --User:Ed Poor 17:55, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Well, Ed, what do you think of the version I proposed above? You didn't comment on it (or haven't, yet).User:Slrubenstein By the way, Ed, even in jest don't say "crazy Arabs and their sick puppy friends." It's a very unconstructive attitude. Also, it is my sense that the only Arabs who do not recognize Jerusalem as capital of Israel are those who do not recognize the State of Israel. The really divisive issues for many Arabs, including those who accept the existence of Israel, is not whether or not Jerusalem is the capital but rather Israel's unlawful annexation of East Jerusalem. User:Slrubenstein :I took back that crack. Sorry. :I like the phrasing of ''It is the largest city in, and official capital of Israel, although the status of the city under international law is unsettled'' better than ''It is the capital of Israel''. --User:Ed Poor 18:10, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::largest city [...] in Israel? That's even worse! Now Wikipedia would REALLY endorse the view that the whole of Jerusalem is part of and/or belongs to Israel! -- User:Dissident :Well, I thought that the context made your point clear. But how about "Including areas occupied by Israel, it is ...?" User:Slrubenstein ::Take a look at the third paragraph. -- User:Dissident 19:31, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) (User_talk:Dissident) :Okay, but every other article on a major city has the population in the first paragraph. This seems reasonable, and in this case relative uniformity of style in an encyclopedia makes sense. User:Slrubenstein ==Jerusalem as capital of Israel== Is it disputed that Jerusalem is the capital of israel? Its hard to tell (despite the endless discussion that seems to be about it).User:Bensaccount 20:35, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Based on what has currently been said (and what is given in Wikipedia), the following questions define whether or not Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. #Is Jerusalem the city or town that contains the government of Israel? #Is Jerusalem a center of important activity in Israel? User:Bensaccount 21:16, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Based on what has been said so far, #Jerusalem does contain the government of Israel. #Jerusalem is a center of important activity. Therefore the capital of Israel is Jerusalem. User:Bensaccount 21:34, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) : I wouldn't put any faith in Wikipedia as a source on the matter. Anyone can edit it. Madness. User:MyRedDice 21:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::If you dont have any faith in Wikipedia why are you here? User:Bensaccount 21:39, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) : Because it won't always be this abysmal. User:MyRedDice 21:40, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) I dont see what you are getting at. Are you suggesting that some other source is used to define capital (politics) and this page be based on that? Wouldn't it make more sense to base it on something that is in Wikipedia? User:Bensaccount 21:43, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :No one disputes that Jerusalem is the de facto capital of Israel. What is in question is whether it is its de jure capital; by Israeli law, of course, it is, but whether it is by international law is highly questionable. In particular, East Jerusalem has never formally been annexed by Israel (according to Christians for Israel: http://www.c4israel.org/articles/english/e-c-00-3-kort-judicialjerus.htm ), and thus remains not a part of Israel by international law (even independent of any questions about the legality of such an annexation.) This means that de jure, at most, West Jerusalem can be described as the capital; in practice, most nations' legal position is that Israel's de jure capital is still Tel Aviv. Of course, as Bensaccount suggests, this throws into question which factor should be taken as primary in defining "capital"... - User:Mustafaa 21:55, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::Hi Mustafaa, nice to see someone new here. I'm afraid you are presenting the information from the article you provided in a somewhat misleading way. It is true that Israel does not officially use the term "annexation" for describing the change in the status of East Jerusalem in 1968 - because you can only "annex" something which formerly lawfully belonged to a different country - and Israel never recognized any foreign sovereignty over any part of what used to be the British Mandate on Palestine. So officially what Israel did was "applying the It's laws, jurisdiction and administration". However, by doing so, Israel brought it to the same official status of the rest of Israeli territory (including West Jerusalem). So the difference in terminology has to do only with the previous status of East Jerusalem (before the "annexation" / "applying of jurisdiction and administration") - not with its status afterwards. So De jure, all of Jerusalem ''can'' be described as the capital. User:Uriber 22:27, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :::"De jure" depends on who has stated the law. User:Bensaccount 22:34, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Finally some progress. Jerusalem contains the Israeli government and is a center of activity in Israel. Israeli law states that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but Jerusalem is not stated as the capital of Israel by international law. User:Bensaccount 22:13, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I don't believe that International Law deals with the question of which city is capital of what country. Please provide some reference to prove that it does. User:Uriber 22:30, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I agree with Uriber. Please tell us an example of a city that is "stated by international law" to be the capital of any country. --User:Zero0000 22:35, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::I am not here to research. If noone can state for sure how international law deals with Jerusalem as capital: Jerusalem contains the Israeli government and is a center of activity in Israel. Israeli law states that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. User:Bensaccount 22:42, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) :::OK, I can't seem to find any references for international law affecting capitals per se; my assumption was that if the territory in question is not legally part of Israel, it cannot therefore legally be its capital, but I don't actually know of any legal principle explicitly preventing a capital from being, indeed, entirely outside the country of which it is the capital if it so desires - anomalous as that would be. That's not to say no such principle exists: IANAL... Unless someone does know the details of international law on that, I'm fine with the current compromise.User:Mustafaa 23:41, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) : To Ben: well that's what the intro already says: : # Jer. is capital under Isr. law. : # Jer. is de facto capital. : Seems you're just rephrasing what we already have? However, what we already have is a somewhat fragile consensus, so I don't think it should be replaced without agreement (IE, I agree with Uriber again). ::I realize thats what it says. It said that before it was decided why it should say that. I just filled in the reasoning. User:Bensaccount 00:14, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) : I think the point about international law and the position of the UN is important enough that we perhaps shouldn't say "Jer. is the capital", but not so important that it needs to be in the intro. : ''Personally'', I have decided I would be willing to accept "Jerusalem is the Israeli capital (but see Jerusalem#Status_as_Israel's_capital)". I think "Israeli" (an adjective) is ''much'' better than "Israel's" (possessive tense). However, I can't speak for Anthony or Wik on this. User:MyRedDice 23:10, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::How about "Israel made Jerusalem its capital, but..."? -- User:Dissident 23:46, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::: Well, that has the possessive, which I dislike unattributed in this case ("its"). Also, I doubt that that will satisfy Uriber - it only deals with the de jure bit, not the de facto bit (both are worth mentioning, IMO). User:MyRedDice 23:57, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) Shouldn't it be mentioned that the Palestinians claim Jerusalem as their capital too?User:AndyL 00:29, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) ==Change by Wik== Wik changed "under Israel's law" to "claimed by Israel". This is a step in the wrong direction, making the statement less clear. (Claim means demand capitals arent defined by demands). User:Bensaccount 01:07, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) And yet, Wik is so pro-government when it comes to the Indonesian (Islamic) occupation of West Papua (Christian), he even disputes the known English name is ''West Papua'' and moved the article to Papua (Indonesian province) where it would be so easy to find (not), or confused with Papua_(disambiguation) the Island instead; not to mention how he keeps replacing the West Papuan Genocide with a re-direct. A new meaning to the term NPOV I suspect. ;-)User:Daeron 11:32, 8 May 2004 (UTC) ==Testimonials== Not bad, compare with http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761572316/Jerusalem.html. User:Bensaccount 00:46, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) Uriber's version of 09:03, 7 Apr 2004 is an excellent compromise and has my support. --User:Zero0000 09:17, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) I can also accept the phrase "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel under Israeli law", but just ''barely''. Consider this to be an ''extremely hard-fought'' compromise. -- User:Dissident 09:56, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) :You might compare this formulation to *China considers Taiwan a breakaway province, not a seperate country. :Even thought the ROC has been holding its own national elections for more years than I can count! --User:Ed Poor 12:24, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::Well, China may consider them to be provincial elections instead. :-) -- User:Dissident 18:34, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) ==Palestinians and Jerusalem as capital== Do Palestinians really "aspire" that Jerusalem become their capital? User:Bensaccount 16:56, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) "Claim" really is more accurate User:AndyL : I note that different approaches seems to have been taken in other controversial cases: Laayoune is described as the "unofficial capital" of Western Sahara, Jaffna as the "cultural capital" of Sri Lankan Tamils, Taipei as the "provisional capital" of Taiwan, and "The capital of Somaliland is Hargeisa". Western Sahara strikes me as the nearest parallel, as Laayoune has been under Moroccan control and annexed by Morocco (under Moroccan law, at any rate) ever since Spain left. But "unofficial capital" doesn't have the right ring to it, to my ears; if anything, it's more the official capital (as enshrined in PLO declarations, etc.) than the unofficial one. User:Mustafaa 18:02, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC) How did West Germany describe Berlin before unification? Bonn was the capital of West Germany but Berlin was always considered the "real" capital but I foget the language that was used/User:AndyL :Was it "titular capital"? That sounds familiar... - User:Mustafaa 19:55, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) The "also" in this sentence is incorrect. Saying also requires similarity.User:Bensaccount 17:30, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) ==Number of countries which dispute the sovereignty== Wik wrote, in an edit summary: :most countries dispute Israeli sovereignty over either the entire or the eastern part of the city Please list (or at least count) these countries, and supply a source. --User:Ed Poor 18:03, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) :See List of countries, minus Costa Rica and El Salvador. --User:Wik 18:13, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC) ::Ha, ha. Do you think US and UK dispute Israeli ''de jure'' sovereignty over Jerusalem? Also, there's a difference between (a) "hasn't made a statement in support of" and (b) "has made a statement disputing". --User:Ed Poor 18:31, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) :::Of course they do, otherwise they would have their embassies there. --User:Wik 18:42, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC) ::::I doubt that's the reason, considering the close alliance between the three nations. The reason, at least I think, is that Jerusalem is volatile enough, and many Palestinians would consider a U.S embassy there a serious affront. I mean, not like the U.S. cares what Palestinians think or say, but I guess it's just a fear of controversy and possible violence. --User:Tothebarricades.tk 02:38, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC) ===A newspaper article=== :A dispute over the future of Jerusalem is at the heart of the Israeli- Palestinian conflict. Divided by barbed wire into Israeli and Jordanian rule in 1948, it was reunited under Israeli sovereignty as a result of the 1967 Six-Day war. Israel claims the entire city of Jerusalem as its eternal, indivisible capital. The Palestinians want at least the eastern part of the city to become the capital of a future state. Most countries of the world have never recognized Israel's right to Jerusalem. More than a dozen withdrew their embassies to Tel Aviv in protest in 1980 when Israel enshrined its claim in law. Only three Latin American countries now have their embassies here - Costa Rica, Bolivia and El Salvador. [http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=%5CForeignBureaus%5Carchive%5C200106%5CFor20010613b.html] Just to make clear that West Jerusalem is almost equally disputed, I may note that even before the 1980 decision, only thirteen countries had their embassies in Jerusalem: Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, the Netherlands, Panama, Uruguay, Venezuela. All of them moved to Tel Aviv after the UN Security Council resolution, although Costa Rica and El Salvador moved back to Jerusalem in 1984. --User:Wik 18:18, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC) :All of them, eh? What about Bolivia? According to the cns news article Bolivia currently has its embassy there. But you said "all of them" moved to Tel Aviv. Did you mean "all but Bolivia" or what? ::The article is mistaken. Bolivia's embassy now is at Mevaseret Zion, which is a suburb of Jerusalem but outside the city limits. --User:Wik 18:40, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC) ==Why this issue is so hard== Each side wants to justify its own aspirations. Israel wants sovereignty over ALL of Jerusalem. Various groups of Arabs want: #sovereignty over PART of Jerusalem #sovereignty over ALL of Jerusalem One may suppose that to concede (or "recognize") Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem would hurt Arabs' chances of getting ahold of it themselves. Refusing to recognize Israel's claim to the city is part of a public relations campaign aimed at getting other countries to pressure Israel into ceding control of it. (I think this strategy used to be called "land for peace", although I haven't looked at that article for a while.) --User:Ed Poor 18:19, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) : There are only about 20 Arab countries out there - a drop in the bucket compared to the 200 or so that don't recognize Israeli sovereignty over East Jerusalem. - User:Mustafaa 18:24, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) Here is another quote about the sovereigty of Jerusalem. From the National Institute for Technology and Liberal Education (NITLE): :Even Jerusalem, the city Israel claims as its capital, remains an area of dispute. Predominantly Jewish West Jerusalem has been part of Israel since independence in 1948; Israel captured mostly Arab East Jerusalem in 1967. Israel has since claimed the entire city as its capital. However, the United Nations does not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital. [http://www.nitle.org/arabworld/map.php?module_id=4&country_id=12] Nobody's posted a comment here in two millenia, er, weeks! Does that mean the "capital" issue has been settled to everyone's satisfaction? --User:Ed Poor 19:13, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC) :The way this issue has been "settled" is completely unacceptable, and I'm anything but satisfied with it. My deep disappointment at this result, and the process that led to it, is the reason I've stopped making edits to Wikipedia for the last couple of weeks, and why I probably won't be coming back any time soon. User:Uriber 21:24, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC) I inserted the NPOV note. As I said earlier, I consider this case a litmus test for WP. See what half-a-dozen of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jerusalem/capital#What_do_other_sources_say? other encyclopedias] say in the first phrase. Not a single compromise was acceptable here. So let's pick one option out of two: WP is either biased or neutral. --User:Humus sapiens|User talk:Humus sapiens 05:32, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC) == According to vs Under == I prefer "Under Israeli law" to "According to Israeli law", as it is shorter, and makes more sense (laws have jurisdictions, hence "under", while people have opinions, hence "according to"). So I've gone back to that wording. User:MyRedDice 21:41, 2 May 2004 (UTC) :"Under" is not restrictive enough. It suggests that Israeli law is all that is necessary to make it capital. "Under Israeli law, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is like "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Israeli law makes it so." On the other hand, "according to" makes it clear that it is just one view (according to Israeli law, it is the capital; according to others, it isn't). --User:Wik 14:27, May 3, 2004 (UTC) :: OK - I can understand that, even if I'm not convinced myself. Thanks for explaining. User:MyRedDice ::: I am really not convinced. We're back a step. Jerusalem IS the capital of Israel from Israel's point of view, but since Israel controls Jerusalem it is UNDER Israeli law a capital. The next sentence - about the disputes shows the other points of view. If nobody replies to my claim I am going to change the "according to" back to "Under". ---- FYI: [http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1064571767798 British official position on the status of Jerusalem] == Occupied == Talk:Israel#Occupation is about whether the current situation should be described as "occupation", not the situation in 1948 and 1967. "occupied" is a good word choice. "gained control" is a clumsy alternative, in context. User:MyRedDice 20:50, 6 May 2004 (UTC) ==Psalms== I've seen the translation of the Psalms under Jerusalem#Importance_of_Jerusalem_to_Jews_and_Judaism change a number of times. I feel that the most recent, rather large change has been for the worse. Can we agree that the general meaning of the Psalm is more important than the literal translation, and that denoting what individual words are added by the translator to achieve the proper meaning is unimportant? If nobody objects, I'd like to change it back to before User:209.135.35.83 modified it. I see what they're trying to do, but I don't feel that they've added anything and the old version flows better. : I don't mind what translation is quoted, but it should be a published (and named) one, not one off the top of somebody's head. I agree that "cunning" has changed its meaning in modern English, but I don't think that's a major argument against the King James Version. In the original, the KJV does indicate words not present in the original, with ''italics''; perhaps we could add those? - User:Mustafaa 18:33, 7 May 2004 (UTC) ::What's wrong with using the King James and then saying it's the King James? It's prettier. User:John Kenney 19:15, 7 May 2004 (UTC) ::Good call on the using a published version. Looks good. Now do we need to get God's permission to use that text, or what? --User:Caliper 20:20, 7 May 2004 (UTC) Does you hand have cunning? Neither does mine (21st century). Words change meaning over centuries. The King James Version is near and dear to many; its what the Bible is suppposed to sound like....unfortunately meanings of many of the words using the KJV have changed. cunning has negative connotations that are not in the original...does it take cunning to play the piano...playing piano (that skill) or whatever skills or movements one has (typing?) are the meaning of the verse. There are other significant ''concerns'' and ''issues'' regarding the KJV that are either well known or easily accessible to one fluent in the original langagues. I imagine (certainly hope...well looks like that is missing from KJV page) that they are throughly discussed in a page on the KJV at wikipedia The User:209.135.35.83 version is ''The Metsudah Tehillim'' copyright 1997, KTAV publishing....perhaps not the best, but it is a nice bilingual version that I keep at hand. == United States position == I've clarified the section on the US position. Since the US Constitution grants only the President the power to make foreign policy it's misleading for us to write that US law makes Jerusalem the capital of Israel - no part of an act which is contrary to the US Constitution is US law. If someone can think of a short and non-misleading piece to go at the start of the current status section, that would be good - nothing succinct enough and still not misleading occurred to me. User:Jamesday 23:38, 25 May 2004 (UTC) :Where does it grant the president exclusive power to make foreign policy? - User:Nat KrauseUser_Talk:Nat Krause 04:40, 26 May 2004 (UTC) ''The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.'' ? User:John Kenney User_talk:John Kenney 04:46, 26 May 2004 (UTC) ::Well, not that it is worthwhile for us to debate this much, but I don't see how this says anything about foreign policy that it doesn't also say about domestic policy. - User:Nat KrauseUser_Talk:Nat Krause 06:09, 26 May 2004 (UTC) :My understanding is that that line is just a blanket statement so that when required, the President can respond to issues that don't have time to pass through congress and the senate. I suppose that insofar as there is no law concerning how the United States feels about Israel, this may be considered the president's perogative, but I don't think it says that anywhere specific. --User:Caliper 04:59, 26 May 2004 (UTC) Well, the point is that there ''is'' a law, but that it has not been put into effect because the executive branch says it's unconstitutional. User:John Kenney User_talk:John Kenney 05:19, 26 May 2004 (UTC) I'm confused by this line: ''The United States Jerusalem Embassy Act, passed by Congress in 1995, states...'' Was this bill signed into law by President Clinton? An act of Congress does not become law without presidential approval. User:Funnyhat 01:42, 23 May 2005 (UTC) == View of Jerusalem == why does it say in the wikitext not to change this to a thumbnail in the imagesyntax? It will look much better. --User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason/ User talk:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason/ [ Bjarmason] User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason/ 21:35, 2004 Sep 8 (UTC) --------- I consider the world to be given to ME by GOD, So get out of my world. The Rastafarians consider themselves to be the true jews and white people evil, so Jerrytown belongs to them, but then the Palestinians consider it Palestinian. Some say opinions are like 'a' holes, everyones got one, but one should avoid taking opinion, especially possesive (a hole), opinions as truth. == City of David == This article states that there is archeological confirmation of the biblical story of King David. But the article on King David states: >Biblical minimalists hold that David and his united kingdom never existed, and that the stories told about his life were made up much later by Jewish nationalists. Others consider him a real historical figure, but like King Arthur, consider most of the traditions relating to him to have more myth than substance. >The details of David's life given in this article come from the Hebrew Bible and are not corroborated by other historical documents. However, an ancient inscription found at Tel Dan is generally considered to refer to a king of the "House of David", providing indirect evidence that David did exist as a historical king. --User:Sentience 00:49, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC) ==Jerusalem in Christianity?== The article has a brief section on Jerusalem in Islam (and now, after an afternoon at the library, Mandaeanism), and a huge section on Jerusalem in Judaism; shouldn't somebody more knowledgeable about it than me add a section on Jerusalem in Christianity? It does have a certain religious importance to Christians, right? ;) - User:Mustafaa 23:19, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC) For one thing, most of the Torah, Tanakh, and Psalms section is also applicable to Christianity; possibly the section headings should reflect that - User:Mustafaa 17:09, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC) I suggest the following replacement text: :Jerusalem in Torah and Tanakh / Old Testament :Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Torah and Tanakh, or Old Testament, a text sacred to both Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism it is considered the Written Law, the basis for the Oral Law (Mishnah, Talmud and Shulkhan Arukh) studied, practiced and treasured by Jews and Judaism for three millennia. (List of Jewish Prayers and Blessings). In Christianity, it is considered as the account of God's relationship with His chosen people - the original covenant - and the essential prelude to the events narrated in the New Testament, including both universal commandments (eg the Ten Commandments) and obsolete or Judaism-specific ones. :For example, the book of Psalms, which has been frequently recited and memorized by Jews and Christians for centuries, says: (etc.) Any thoughts, objections (since this is a controversial article after all)? - User:Mustafaa 19:35, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC) ==Edward Said was NOT born in Jerusalem== See, for example, http://www.meforum.org/article/191, (full article mirrored at http://members.tripod.com/arabterrorism/FAQ/said.html). And at least try to come to talk and see if we'll vet your propagandistic lies before changing the article. Thanks! - User:Loweeel 15:52, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC) :The Edward Said article says that he was born in Jerusalem. I've left a note on that talk page for evidence of this, and have always thought it to be true. The consensus should be reached on that talk page rather than here. I reverted the change because it didn't make sense to contradict Wikipedia: either both articles should say he was born in Jerusalem, or both should say that he was born in Cairo. User:Garzo 16:02, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::Try looking at the talk section on his page (right above the section where you posted), as well as the articles I posted here. - User:Loweeel 16:21, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::: Er, yes. Even the obviously propagandistic article Loweeel links to states that "I discovered many interesting points: that Said was in fact "born in Jerusalem," but only because his parents feared hygienic conditions in Cairo hospitals after their previously born son died of an infection within days of his delivery." So this is certainly settled. - User:Mustafaa 08:00, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Yerushalyim or al Quds first? == The article currently has the Arabic name (al Quds) first, then the Hebrew name (Yerushalayim). Since the Hebrew name is older, and is the origin of the English name Jerusalem, wouldn't it make sense for the Hebrew name to go first? User:JayjgUser_talk:Jayjg 21:21, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Yes, I agree with you: the Hebrew name should come first, followed by the Arabic name. --User:Garzo 21:59, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::The person who made that edit said he was doing it because of alphabetical order. There was a similar edit on the Golan Heights article where you put the category "Geography of Israel" ahead of "Geography of Syria" because of alphabetical order as well. We shouldn't have a double standard here, either every thing is in alphabetical order or there's another way.Yuber 01:22, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::Definitely User:Kuratowski's Ghost 22:01, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::But, the geography categories are not subject to these philological considerations and respective historicity. Drawing such linear parallels as standard of a measurement for npov, is likely to result in an awkward product, with a superimposed neutrality, leading and leaning towards inaccuracies. User:El C 02:52, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) I disagree. With the current claims and controversy over the city, alphabetization is an unassailable neutral methodology. --User:AladdinSE 15:30, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC) :Historical age of the terms, and root of the English word, are also unassailably neutral. The consensus is against your unilateral change, please respect it. User:JayjgUser_talk:Jayjg 17:45, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::I can appreciate your point, ASE, but I think, ultimately, it's a poor methodological approach: the risk of adhering to arbitrary models (such as alphabetization) is a pandora's box which would harm the quality of the final product (even though in terms of inter-editorial conflict and the rivalry of worldviews it can be seen as possessing great benefit). And, of course, this isn't to say there isn't a role for it to play when philological considerations are not an issue (such as the geography categories Yuber mentioned). User:El C 03:07, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC) I think this is all moot. The article's name Jerusalem comes first, and Names of Jerusalem is in chronological order of names (and, in each section, in chronological order of languages adopting a form of that name). Maybe it's better just to replace the names with a link to Names of Jerusalem, which was written with all this in consideration, along with comments. With a topic this complex with no simple answers, it seems like a wise move. - User:Gilgamesh 05:40, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC) : I'm sorry, EL C, you lost me. Most of that was quite over my head. Once again, please, in language a mere mortal can comprehend :-) Alphabetization is an excellent standard in most cases and is especially significant in, as you say, inter-editorial conflict. Jayjg: Please stop claiming consensus in edit summaries. As you can plainly see there is division of oppinon and the matter remains under discussion. Gilgamesh: The Names of Jerusalem article is already named and linked in the article, it's important and appropriate. However mentioning different language spellings of names in intro sections is pretty standard in Wikipedia, I think they ought to stay. --User:AladdinSE 21:46, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC) ::The article is titled "Jerusalem" the name by which the city is known in English. The name comes from Hebrew so the Hebrew forms come first. The name of the city in most languages is a form of the word "Jerusalem". It is questionable if the anomalous Arabic name Al-Quds should even appear in the list let alone be first. User:Kuratowski's Ghost 22:40, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::: Ok that is just pure bias shining through clearly in your comment. The city is disputed between Arabs and Jews. Moreover Arab East Jerusalem is considered internatioally, and without exception, as occupied territory where Israeli annexation has been utterly rejected. Alphabetical listings are a good idea in any case, and in cases where there is dispute and controversy it is essential. --User:AladdinSE 00:08, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC) ::::The city is known as "Jerusalem" in English, this name comes from the Hebrew which is the main reason for listing the Hebrew name and its pronunciations. Putting Al-Quds first and then the Hebrew does not make any sense, because it isn't even a form of the name "Jerusalem" let alone the origin of the name. Al-Quds is mentioned only because of the significant Arabic speaking population who use this name which is unrelated to the name Jerusalem. User:Kuratowski's Ghost 00:24, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC) We are now beginning to repeat ourselves. Putting the Arabic first makes perfect sense because it is alphabetical, which is especially important in a disputed setting. Your points about the root of the word is better suited for inclusion in the Names of Jerusalem article. --User:AladdinSE 08:13, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC) Let's see if we can clean this up a little: Summary: For Jerusalem, Yerushalayim, al-Quds: * Historical order * Etymological consistancy * Ruling Government's self-identified name For Jerusalem, al-Quds, Yerushalayim * Alphabetical Aladdin, I understand why you argue that the name is controversial, which may be a reason to reject the third arugment above. Nevertheless, what are your objections to the first two arguments? Do you really think that the neutrality of the alphabet is better than the neutrality of the etymology, or of the historical names? User:Mikeage 04:02, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) : Short answer: Yes. Long answer: "We were here first" is not a valid encyclopedic classification. Listing the Arabic and Hebrew spellings in alphabetical order does not alter the history of the city, which is clearly laid out in the article. It is not etymologically inconsistent to use alphabetical listing. It would be etymologically inconsistent if the Hebrew spelling/script was omitted. --User:AladdinSE 12:52, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC) I'd like to add to Mikeage's list for for "Yerushalayim, al-Quds": * The name used by the majority of the city's population. I think this is really the deciding factor here. The "native" names (those given in parenthesis after the English name of cities) should reflect the name of the city used by those living in it. If there is more than one such name, the name used by the majority should prevail. Political claims should have nothing to do with it. Cf. Shefa-Amr, where the Arabic name comes before the Hebrew one, despite the undisputed Israeli sovereignty. User:Uriber 16:01, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) : Please remember that the legality of East and West Jerusalem as one jurisdiction is universally rejected by the UN and every nation in the world as illegal and null & void. The same universal consensus considers all Israeli settlement in ''East Jerusalem'' to be illegal, just as settlement in any territory captured in 1967 is considered illegal. Shefa-Amr is an excellent example of how alphabetical order is neutral and encyclopedic. --User:AladdinSE 05:12, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) ::I wish you would actually address my argument instead of getting into the question of "legality of East and West Jerusalem as one jurisdiction", which is completely irrelevant here. If you'd follow the history of the Shefa-Amr article, you'll see that it has nothing to do with alphabetical ordering. Also, you are clearly in the minority here, and I wish you'd respect consensus and stop reverting the article. User:Uriber 09:24, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Alphabetical order seems to be the rule of thumb around here (but maybe I'm wrong?), is there a policy page that formally says so (or not)--User:198 05:54, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) : By the "alphabetical logic", the order in almost all the disputed places will have to be changed into Arabic first. I think we should be consistent. The historical order seems the most logical for historical articles. User:Humus sapiens←User:Humus sapiens←User talk:Humus sapiens 05:59, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) :: ahh so where would this article fit? Alpha or Historical?--User:198 06:09, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::: IMHO, this is an article about a city of Jerusalem and its history. User:Humus sapiens←User:Humus sapiens←User talk:Humus sapiens 06:52, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Actually no, this is an article about the city of Jerusalem, the title says nothing about the history, nor in fact, about its transportation or infrastructure etc. The article is overlong, and it may be advisable to start creating some sub articles along those lines to reduce this article to code. The point is, history of the city is not the primary emphasis, and cannot be used to overrule a neutral alphabetical order of other-language scripts. Even if history ''was'' the emphasis, like in a proposed "History of Jerusalem" article (which currently re-directs to this Jerusalem article), alphabetical order would still be the prime neutral method of listing the non-English scripts and spellings of the name. Alphabetical is a good idea as a standard, it is ''essential'' in a disputed setting. --User:AladdinSE 08:12, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) : This article and this city is all about history. ''"Alphabetical is a good idea as a standard, it is ''essential'' in a disputed setting."'' - as long as Islamic supersessionism comes out first. If we apply the principle of consistency throughout the WP (and I think we should be consistent), this new "standard" will change the order in almost all the disputes into Arabic first, except where preceded by Amharic. There is no dispute that Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism and only the 3rd in Islam. Why don't we go by that criteria? User:Humus sapiens←User:Humus sapiens←User talk:Humus sapiens 09:37, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) :: You show your clear bias in this case, and illustrate better than I could have done why a neutral alphabetical order is essential. It's not about "holiest in Judaism" and "only third holiest in Islam." What about Christian Palestinian residents of occupied East Jerusalem?? They don't matter at all to you I suppose. Religious connections and levels of holiness are all extremely subjective and divisive. You cannot determine an order of listing on that basis. --User:AladdinSE 22:03, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) ::: Is it corect that Arabic word "Quds" comes from Hebrew "Qodesh"? User:Humus sapiens←User:Humus sapiens←User talk:Humus sapiens 08:05, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::: You would have to ask a linguist. --User:AladdinSE 09:26, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC) Isn't there too much or enough real fight over Al-Quds-Jeruzalem-Yerushalyim in this world? Since 2003, I now and then follow this page, and the fight seems never ending. In many cases, as this Jeruzalem fight, it's about futile issues. Can't we just agree on things here? I think btw: alphabetical order seems fine to me.. and then I mean: alphabetical order of the name.. not the language's name or any other concept to make it more complex. Let's stick to the KISS_principle people! --User:Irsjad 11:44, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) :Being that this is the English version Wikipedia, it makes most sense in my view to first give the name from which the English name, Jerusalem, is most closely derived. That would be "Yerushalayim". --M
Jerusalem
*See related articles Israel and Palestine (region). Hebrew Bible/Tanakh places Crusades Cities in Israel Holy cities Israeli history Jewish history Palestine
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JA | JB | JC | JD | JE | JF | JG | JH | JI | JK | JL | JM | JN | JO | JP | JR | JS | JT | JU | JW | JX | JY | JZ |Words begining with Jerusalem:
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Jerusalem_Central_Bus_Station
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Jerusalem_pogrom_of_April,_1920
Jerusalem_pogrom_of_April,_1920
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