
In Christian mythology, the Holy Grail was the dishware, plate (dishware), drinkware or vessel that Jesus drank from during the Last Supper. It was said to have the power to heal all wounds. The quest for the Holy Grail makes up an important segment of the King Arthur cycle. The legend may be a combination of genuine Christian lore with a Celtic mythology of a cauldron endowed with special powers. Whether ''graal'' is Celtic or Old French, it never refers to any cup or bowl but this. Though some Christian revisionists insist that the Holy Grail is not to be confused with the Holy Chalice, the vessel which Jesus used at the Last Supper to serve the wine, this has been the historical practice; various vessels have been put forward as the Last Supper chalice. According to the ''Catholic Encyclopedia'', it was only after the cycle of Grail Romance (genre) was well established, identifying the cup of the Last Supper with the Grail, that late medieval writers came up with a false etymology from the fact that in Old French, ''san grial'' means "Holy Grail" and ''sang rial'' means "royal blood". Since then, Sangreal is sometimes employed to lend a medievalizing air in referring to the Holy Grail. This connection with royal blood bore fruit in a modern best-seller linking many historical conspiracies (#Modern retellings). The development of the Grail legend has been traced in detail by cultural historians: it is a Gothic literature legend, which first came together in the form of written romances, deriving perhaps from some pre-Christian folkloric hints, in the later 12th century and early 13th century centuries. The early Grail romances centered on Percival and were then woven into the more general Arthurian fabric. The Grail romances started in France and were translated into other European vernaculars; only a handful of non-French romances added any essential new elements. Myths of the Grail fall into two kinds of narratives: the history or fate of the Grail and the quest for the Grail. ==Origins of the Grail== ===Distribution of Grail ideas=== Various notions of the Holy Grail are currently very widespread in Western Society (especially British and American), popularized through numerous medieval and modern works (see below) and linked with the predominantly Anglo-French (but also with some German influence) cycle of stories about King Arthur and his knights. Because of this wide distribution most Americans and West Europeans assume that the Grail idea is universally well known. The stories of the Grail are totally absent from Eastern Orthodox teachings and are not a part of the culture and mythos of those countries that were and are Orthodox (Orthodox Arabs, Orthodox Slavs, Orthodox Romanians, Orthodox Greeks). This is even more true of the Arthurian myths which were not well known (until the present day Hollywood retellings) east of Germany. The notions of the Grail, its importance, and prominence are, and should always be regarded as, a set of ideas that are essentially local and particular, being linked with Catholic or formerly Catholic locales, Celtic mythology, and Anglo-French medieval storytelling. The contemporary wide distribution of these ideas is due to the huge influence of the pop culture of countries where the Grail Myth was prominent in the Middle Ages. ===Early forms of the Grail=== The origins of the Grail can be traced back to early Celt lore involving a hero/traveller who finds himself within an "other world", one that is on a magical plane parallel to ours. The transition from one world to another is usually described subtly, such as an unnoticeable and gradual change in the scenery. The role of the Grail was simply as a platter, or dish, that would never go empty and be presented to signify the mystical nature of the other world. On the other hand, Joseph Goering of University of Toronto (Goering 2005) has identified sources for Grail imagery in 12th-century wall paintings from churches in the Catalonia Pyrenees (now mostly removed to the Museu Nacional d'Art de Catalunya, Barcelona) that present unique iconic images of the Virgin Mary holding a bowl that radiates tongues of fire, images that predate the first literary account by Chrétien de Troyes. Goering argues that they were the original inspiration for the grail legend. ===The Grail and the Fisher King=== The tale of the Fisher King involves a king who is lame in one leg (a euphemism for impotency) which in turn causes the land to become barren (infertile). The hero (Gawain in the earlier tales with Percival or Galahad in the later retellings) encounters the Fisher King and is invited to a feast, as in the older other-world tales. The Grail is again presented as a platter of plenty but is also presented as part of a series of mystical relics, which also included a spear that drips blood and a broken sword. The purpose of the relics is to incite the hero to question them and thereby, through some unknown means, break the enchantment of the infirm king and the barren land, although the hero invariably fails to do so. ===The Grail and Arthurian legend=== The story of the Fisher King and the Grail was later incorporated into the Matter of Britain. At first presented as a retelling of the older Fisher King tale, it eventually evolved into an explicit "quest" for the Grail. ==The beginnings of the Grail in literature== ===Chrétien de Troyes=== The Grail is first featured in ''Perceval, le Conte del Graal'' (The Story of the Grail) by Chrétien de Troyes, who claims he was working from a source book given to him by his patron, Count Philip of Flanders. In this incomplete poem, dated sometime between 1180 and 1191, the object has not yet acquired the implications of holiness it would have in later works. While dining in the magical abode of the Fisher King, Perceval witnesses a wondrous procession in which youths carry magnificent objects from one chamber to another, passing before him at each course of the meal. First comes a young man carrying a bleeding lance, then two boys carrying candelabras. Finally, a beautiful young girl emerges bearing an elaborately decorated ''graal'', or "grail". Chrétien refers to his object not as "The Grail" but as ''un graal'', showing the word was used, in its earliest literary context, as a common noun. For Chrétien the grail was a wide, somewhat deep dish or bowl, interesting because it contained not a pike, salmon or lamprey, as the audience may have expected for such a container, but a single Mass wafer which provided sustenance for the Fisher King’s crippled father. Perceval, who had been warned against talking too much, remains silent through all of this, and wakes up the next morning alone. He later learns that if he had asked the appropriate questions about what he saw, he would have healed his maimed host, much to his honor. ===Robert de Boron=== Though Chrétien’s account is the earliest and most influential of all Grail texts, it was in the work of Robert de Boron that the Grail truly became the “Holy Grail” and assumed the form most familiar to modern readers. In his verse romance ''Joseph d’Arimathie'', composed between 1191 and 1202, Robert tells the story of Joseph of Arimathea acquiring the chalice of the Last Supper to collect Christ’s blood upon His removal from the cross. Joseph is thrown in prison where Christ visits him and explains the mysteries of the blessed cup. Upon his release Joseph gathers his in-laws and other followers and travels to the west, and founds a dynasty of Grail keepers that eventually includes Perceval. ===The Grail in other early literature=== After this point, Grail literature divides into two classes. The first concerns King Arthur’s knights visiting the Grail castle or questing after the object; the second concerns the Grail’s history in the time of Joseph of Arimathea. The nine most important works from the first group are: * The ''Perceval'' of Chrétien de Troyes. * Four continuations of Chrétien’s poem, by authors of differing vision and talent, designed to bring the story to a close. * The German ''Parzifal'' by Wolfram von Eschenbach, which adapted at least the holiness of Robert’s Grail into the framework of Chrétien’s story. * The ''Didot Perceval'', named after the manuscript’s former owner, and purportedly a prosification of Robert de Boron’s sequal to ''Joseph d’Arimathie''. * The Welsh romance ''Peredur'' (generally included in the Mabinogion), based on Chrétien’s poem but including very striking differences from it. * ''Perlesvaus'', called the "least canonical" Grail romance because of its very different character. * The German ''Diu Crone'' (''The Crown''), in which Gawain, rather than Perceval, achieves the Grail. * The Lancelot, part of the vast Vulgate Cycle and introducing the new Grail hero, Galahad. * The Quest del Saint Grail, another part of the Vulgate Cycle, concerning the adventures of Galahad and his achievement of the Grail. Of the second class there are: * Robert de Boron’s ''Joseph d’Arimathie'', * The ''Estoire del Saint Graal'', the first part of the Vulgate cycle (but written after ''Lancelot'' and the ''Queste''), based on Robert’s tale but expanding it greatly with many new details. Though all these works have their roots in Chrétien, several contain pieces of tradition not found in Chrétien which are possibly derived from earlier sources. ==The Grail canon== ===Fate of the Grail=== A number of knights undertook the quest for the Grail, in tales annexed to Arthurian legend. Some of these tales tell of knights who succeeded, like Percival or the virginal Galahad; others tell of knights who failed to achieve the grail because of their tragedy flaws, like Lancelot. In Wolfram von Eschenbach's telling, the Grail was kept safe at the castle of Munsalvaesche (''mons salvationis'') or Montsalvat, entrusted to Titurel, the first Grail-King. Some, not least the monks of Montserrat, have identified the castle with the real sanctuary of Montserrat (mountain) in Catalonia. Belief in the Grail, and interest in its potential whereabouts, has never ceased. Ownership has been attributed to various groups (including the Knights Templar). There are cups claimed to be the Grail in several churches like the Valencia cathedral. The emerald chalice at Genoa, which was obtained during the crusades at Aleppo at great cost, has been less championed as the Holy Grail since an accident on the road while it was being returned from Paris after the fall of Napoleon revealed that the emerald was green glass. Other stories claim that the Grail is buried beneath Rosslyn Chapel or is to be found deep in the spring at Glastonbury Tor. Still other stories claim that a secret line of hereditary protectors keep the Grail, and local folklore in Nova Scotia and Accokeek, Maryland says that it was moved to these locations by a closeted priest aboard Captain John Smith of Jamestown's ship. ===Quest for the Grail=== The date of Grail sequences in the Welsh folktales, the ''Mabinogion'' are older than the surviving manuscripts (13th century). There is an English poem ''Sir Percyvelle'', of the 15th century. Then the legends of King Arthur and the Holy Grail were collected in the 15th century by Thomas Malory for his ''Le Morte d'Arthur'' which gave the body of legend its classic form. Important literary settings of Grail material include Chrétien de Troyes' ''Conte du Graal'' (French, late 12th century, the first romance to mention the Grail) and Wolfram von Eschenbach's ''Parzival'' (German, early 13th century). The parallels between ''Conte du Graal'' and ''Parzival'' are striking, but Wolfram stated that his tale came from a Provençal lay of a certain Kyot (Guiot). Wolfram also states that his romance is being transcribed for him, so the inference is that his sources were not written. Kyot has never been identified, and many have suggested that he does not exist. Richard Wagner recast Wolfram's version of the legend in his opera ''Parsifal'' (1883), opening the floodgates for the Grail in 20th century pop culture, both camp and campy. ===Four medieval relics=== During the Middle Ages, four major contenders for the position of Holy Grail stood out from the rest. #The earliest record of a chalice from the Last Supper is of a two-handled silver chalice which was kept in a reliquary in a chapel near Jerusalem between the basilica of Golgotha and the Martyrium. This Grail appears only in the account of Arculf, a 7th-century Anglo-Saxon pilgrim who saw it, and through an opening of the perforated lid of the reliquary where it reposed, touched it with his own hand which he had kissed. According to him, it had the measure of a Gaulish pint. All the people of the city flocked to it with great veneration. (Arculf also saw the Holy Lance in the porch of the basilica of Constantine.) This is the only mention of the chalice situated in the Holy Land. #There is a reference in the late thirteenth century to a copy of the Grail being at Constantinople. This occurs in the 13th century German romance, the ''Younger Titurel'': "A second costly dish, very noble and very precious, was fashioned to duplicate this one. In holiness it has no flaw. Men of Constantinople assayed it in their land, (finding) it richer in adornment, they accounted it the true grâl." This Grail was said to have been looted from the church of the Bucoleon during the Fourth Crusade and sent from Constantinople to Troyes by Garnier de Trainel, the then bishop of Troyes, in 1204. It was recorded there in 1610, but it disappeared at the French Revolution. #Of two Grail vessels that survive today, one is at Genoa, in the cathedral. The hexagonal Genoese vessel is known as the ''sacro catino'', the holy basin. Traditionally said to be carved from emerald, it is in fact a green Egyptian glass dish, about eighteen inches (37 cm) across. It was sent to Paris after Napoleon’s conquest of Italy, and was returned broken, which identified the emerald as glass. Its origin is uncertain; according to William of Tyre, writing in about 1170, it was found in the mosque at Caesarea in 1101: "a vase of brilliant green shaped like a bowl." The Genoese, believing that it was of emerald, accepted it in lieu of a large sum of money. An alternative story in a Spanish chronicle says that it was found when Alfonso VII of Castile captured Almeria from the Moors in 1147 with Genoese help, ''un uaso de piedra esmeralda que era tamanno como una escudiella'', "a vase carved from emerald which was like a dish". The Genoese said that this was the only thing they wanted from the sack of Almeria. The identification of the ''sacro catino'' with the Grail is not made until later, however, by Jacobus de Voragine in his chronicle of Genoa, written at the close of the 13th century. #The other surviving grail vessel is the ''santo cáliz'', an agate cup in the cathedral of Valencia. It has been set in a medieval mounting and given a foot made of an inverted cup of chalcedony. There is an Arabic inscription. The earliest secure reference to the chalice is in 1399, when it was given by the monastery of San Juan de la Peña to king Martin I of Aragon in exchange for a gold cup. By the end of the century a provenance had been invented for the chalice at Valencia, by which St Peter had brought it to Rome. ==Modern interpretations== ===Casual metaphor=== The legend of the Holy Grail is the basis of the use of the devalued term ''holy grail'' in modern-day culture. This or that "holy grail" is seen as the distant, all-but-unobtainable ultimate goal for a person, organization, or field to achieve. For instance, cold fusion or anti-gravity devices are sometimes characterized as the "holy grail" of applied physics. ===Modern retellings=== [[Image:holygrail.jpg|frame|right|''The Holy Grail'', by Dante Gabriel Rossetti]] The combination of hushed reverence and overheated chromatic harmonies of Richard Wagner's late opera ''Parsifal'' fatally inflated the Holy Grail theme, while it brought the old medieval tale back into a wider public consciousness. The high seriousness of the subject was also epitomized in Dante Gabriel Rossetti's painting (''illustrated''), in which William Morris's soulful Titian-haired wife, at the time the painter's mistress, holds the Grail like a champagne glass that she is about to make ring with a snap of her long finger. The Grail was overripe, and ''Monty Python and the Holy Grail'' (1975) deflated it and all pseudo-Arthurian posturings. The Grail had turned up in movies before: it debuted in a silent ''Parsifal''. In ''The Light of Faith'' (1922), Lon Chaney attempted to steal it, for the finest of reasons. ''The Silver Chalice'', a novel about the Grail by Thomas B. Costain was made into a 1954 movie (in which Paul Newman débuted), that is considered List of movies that have been considered the worst ever by several critics, including Newman himself. ''Lancelot of the Lake'' (1974) is Robert Bresson's gritty retelling. ''Excalibur (movie)'', a more traditional sex-in-armor representation of an Arthurian tale, in which the Grail is little more than a prop. ''Brancaleone at the Crusades''. ''The Fisher King (movie)'' and ''Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade'' place the quest in modern settings, the one serious yet unavoidably faintly camp, the other robustly self-parodying. Science fiction has taken the Quest into interstellar space, figuratively in Samuel R. Delany's 1968 novel ''Nova_(novel)'', and literally in the 1994 episode "Grail (Babylon 5)" of the television series ''Babylon 5''. For the authors of ''Holy Blood, Holy Grail'', who assert that their research ultimately reveals that Jesus may not have died on the cross, but lived to marry Mary Magdalene and father children, whose Merovingian bloodline continues today, the Grail is a mere sideshow. Dan Brown's bestselling novel ''The Da Vinci Code'' is likewise based on the idea that the real Grail is not a cup but the earthly remains of Mary Magdalene (again cast as Jesus' wife), plus a set of ancient documents telling the "true" story of Jesus, his teachings and descendants. In Brown's novel, it is hinted that the Grail was long buried beneath Rosslyn Chapel just like one tradition claims, but in recent decades its guardians had it relocated to a secret chamber embedded in the floor beneath the Inverted Pyramid in front of the Louvre Museum. Of course, the latter location has never been mentioned in real Grail lore. Yet such was the public interest in even a fictionalized Grail that the museum soon had to rope off the exact location mentioned by Brown, lest visitors inflict any damage in a more or less serious attempt to access the supposed hidden chamber. (See: La Pyramide Inversée.) ==Related articles== Cornucopia and sampo are other mythical vessels with magic (paranormal) powers. ==See Also== *Alleged relics of Jesus Christ *Monty Python and the Holy Grail for something "completely different" ==Further reading== *Roger Sherman Loomis, ''The Grail: From Celtic Myth to Christian Symbol'' ISBN 0691020752 *Malcolm Godwin, ''The Holy Grail: Its Origins, Secrets, & Meaning Revealed'' ISBN 0670851280 *Joseph Goering, 2005. ''The Virgin and the Grail : Origins of a Legend'' (Yale University Press) ISBN 0300106610 [http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=0300106610] ==External links== * [http://historymedren.about.com/cs/holygrail/ About: Medieval History Net: The Holy Grail] A list of links to 6 important sites of reference on the Holy Grail Arthurian legend Alleged relics of Jesus Metaphors
So alternative interpretations of the grail like that in Dan Brown's - The Davinci Code are what? :A mixture of half-truths, willful distortions, and outright lies, mixed together into a ludicrous conspiracy theory that very few historians and mythologists take seriously: that's what such "alternative interpretations" are. ''The Da Vinci Code'' is fiction, and the foolishness that inspired it -- such wonderful works of "dubious historical resources" as ''Holy Blood, Holy Grail'' and ''The Templar Revelation'' -- deserve to be labeled as such. Just as I am a serious christian lunatic that can not accept the possibility of any alternative to what has been preached to the masses by power hungry priests throught the centuries!!! See Priory of Sion. : Not that the article shouldn't mention those pseudohistory, and I'll write the section myself if I can get through the aforementioned nonsense without flinging the books across the room in disgust, but it should make clear that such interpretations rely on poor research, questionable evidence, and a methodology that is more reminiscent of conspiracy theory than serious academic work. --User:Mirv 15:31, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC) :: While those alternative interpretations are being mentioned, don't leave out the legend that Mary Magdalene invented the Macarena and that "some scholars" feel that she is the patron saint of spanking because of the ancient manuscript found in the Holy Land "Paddlin' Magdalene Home." We can all make this stuff up... :Actually Macarena is the name of an advocation of Mary, mother of Jesus popular in Seville. So yes, there is a relation of Macarena to the Grail. -- User:Error 00:35, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC) ---- ==''Grail theories''== ''Many new legends have arisen over the centuries or during the modern revival of interest in the Grail that will describe it as either an emerald that fell from Lucifer's crown when he was thrown out of Heaven; the Philosopher's Stone; the Ark of the Covenant; a book of Jesus' geneology; the silver dish supporting John the Baptist's head; the sword used to cut off John the Baptist's head; the lance belonging to Longinus, the Roman soldier who transfixed Jesus' chest; a secret gospel written by Jesus; the cup used by Mary, sister of Lazarus to perfume Jesus' feet; the container of the Shroud of Turin; a round ball of glass filled with water held in a tree-like stand — the Thummim and the Urim; Aladdin's lamp, the Golden Fleece; or the Baphomet. One of the most popular theories claims that the Grail refers to both Mary Magdalene and a royal bloodline stemming from her marriage to Jesus.'' This is ignorant tripe invented by adolescents who think "hey, it's mythology" and you can just make up ''anything.'' This is an abuse of Wikipedia's tolerance of "alternative" theories. None of these "theories" have ever been connected with the Grail myth in anything more than a comic book. User:Wetman 20:54, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC) : The Mary Magdalene stuff is becoming au courant theory, at least in fiction. User:RickK | User talk:RickK 20:57, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC) What? Connected with the OriGraro? Only in the anime "Meri Magareno"! :Not at all. See "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" and "The Da Vinci Code". User:RickK | User talk:RickK 01:43, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC) :: Wetman, the 'Grail Theories' text was an unfinished summarization of the following material from an external reference: ''Other stories will describe the Grail as a large emerald that fell from Lucifer's crown when he was thrown out of Heaven; the Philosophers' Stone; the Ark of Covenant; a book of Jesus' geneology, written by Jesus;2 The chalice used to collect Jesus' blood; the silver dish supporting John the Baptist's head; the sword used to cut off John the Baptist's head; the lance belonging to Longinus, the Roman soldier who transfixed Jesus' chest; or a secret Gospel written by Jesus. According to Graham Phillips, the Grail is the cup used by Mary of Magdala to perfume Jesus' feet. Daniel C. Scavone suggests that the Grail is the Shroud of Turin. Baima Bollone writes that the Grail is the container of the Holy Shroud. Flavia Anderson, in The Ancient Secret claims that the Grail is a round ball of glass filled with water held in a tree-like stand — the Thummim and the Urim. Suggestions that the Grail was Alladin's lamp, the Golden Fleece or the Baphomet have also been made. For further information view: [http://www.chronique.com/Library/Knights/Grail.htm What is a Grail?] by Dr. Linda Malcor, [http://historymedren.about.com/cs/holygrail/ The History Net], "[http://www.byu.edu/ipt/projects/middleages/Arthur/grail.html An Introduction to Current Theories about The Holy Grail]" Chris Thornborrow. One of the oddest, but most popular, theories claims that the word Grail refers to a royal bloodline and that Jesus' descendents, through various secret societies, continue to manipulate global affairs.'' Regarding those two sources: the first one is decent, but the second one is problematic. This is a subject which, for hundreds of years, has spawned reams and reams of shoddy scholarship, halfwitted vaporings, and complete nonsense (often Holy Blood, Holy Grail), so it might be best not to rely too heavily on a poorly-referenced list compiled by some random person with no apparent qualifications. (Not that all the stuff on that page is worthless; at least one of those theories is well-known, and some of the others are at least attributed to one source or another; but caution and intellectual rigor are necessary.) —User:67.71.79.111 17:22, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::My remarks were far from cautious, once again. Even tripe has sources though. A poem by someone. A drawing that was engraved and widely seen. Something. User:Wetman 19:49, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC) == The Grail in the ''Mabinogion'' == ''The date of Grail sequences in the Welsh folktales, the Mabinogion are older than the surviving manuscripts (13th century).'' I'm pretty familiar with the ''Mabinogion'' and I can't remember a single reference to the Grail in the Three Romances or in "Culwch ac Olwen." Certainly, characters typically associated with the Grail appear in several tales, but that's rather stretching the connection. I also imagine that the Cauldron of Rebirth that Bendigeidfran gives to Matholwch in "Branwen Ferch LLŷr" is related to the Grail legend, but I would consider this more a matter of two tales drawing on the same tradition than the Grail actually making an appearance in "Branwen." Am I missing something major, or are there in fact no Grail sequences in the ''Mabinogion''? I wanted to be sure before editing the page. --User:Paulbee 04:22, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC) :''Peredur fab Evrawg'' has parallels with Chretien's ''Perceval'', such as a procession of mysterious or sacred objects, including the bleeding spear: however, where Chretien has a ''graal'', the ''Peredur'' has a tray holding a man's head swimming in blood. If the Welsh tales are the original source, then the Grail would seem to be something weirder and nastier than usually thought. (Also note the apparent obsession of the ''Perlesvaus''/''High History of the Holy Graal'' with severed heads.) --User:Franey 11:30, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC) ==Multiplying Grails== An anonymous editor has inserted this: ''Still other stories claim that the Grail was moved variously to either Nova Scotia, or to Accokeek, Maryland by a priest aboard Captain John Smith's ship.'' Is this comedy, or what? Is the Holy Grail masquerading as a Dixie Cup in Moscow, Idaho then? I hesitate to revert this simply for underestimating popular ullibility... User:Wetman 00:57, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC) ==Valencia Santo Cáliz== Is the vessel called the ''Santo Cáliz'' a purported Holy Grail? I thought it was a purported Holy Chalice. That is what the Holy Chalice article says, as well as other sources [http://www.comunitatvalenciana.com/english/urbano/valencia/pag1_1.htm]. -User:Willmcw 22:43, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC) :In the Corpus Christi procession at Valencia,''" The float of honor is the Roca del Santo Grial, with a larger-than-life reproduction of the Holy Chalice of Valencia, maintained by tradition to be the very cup used by Jesus to institute the Eucharist."'' (source: http://www.archden.org/dcr/archive/20020424/2002042416ln.htm) Some Wikipedian has a project to disentangle the Chalice of the Last Supper from the Grail legend of the chalice at the Crucifixion. As many quotes such as the one above could demonstrate, disentangling the two is not easy, even with an urgent agenda. --User:Wetman 01:49, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) What are we tryimg to say about the Holy Chalice? That it is often mistaken for the Grail? That they may be the same thing? User:Wetman, I don't understand your edit. Can you explain? Cheers - User:Willmcw 00:40, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) Explained above. Are you the one trying to disentangle the two legends? --User:Wetman 01:49, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) :I certainly don't have an urgent agenda. Do you? I think that there are two separate relics being discussed. It may be worth pointing out that they can be mixed up, or that some people think they are the same thing, but that doesn't mean that they don't have separate existences. If there is confusion then a good task for an encyclopedia is to note that confusion and try to rectify it. What's the problem with that approach? And I'm really confused when you write that ''Christian revisionists'' insist they are different. Are there any who insist that they are the same thing? Who are these revisionists? -User:Willmcw 05:52, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) :The point of artfully disentangling what are patently inextricably connected legends, as so clearly demonstrated at Valencia, is a prelude to arguing that, though one may be a legend, the other is "authentic". I'm glad to hear that no such agenda is involved, for the medieval poetry certainly conflates the grail from the supper and the chalice from the crucifixion, or is it the other way round, right from the start. As every reader knows. --User:Wetman 10:27, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) :: I have removed ''The vessel of the Last Supper, a smallish cup made of marble is not lost, in fact it is still identified with several venerated relics, especially at the Spanish Cathedral of Valencia.'' since it includes statements which belong at Holy Chalice. "Is not lost" is a strange phrase in this case. --User:Henrygb 00:44, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC) ==Loomis' research== This article is unsatisfactory because while it mentions R.S. Loomis' work (whom I have been led to believe was the authority on the origin & growth of the Grail myth) in the Bibliography, it makes little use of his research. He provides numerous examples of themes from this story as having appeared in Celtic stories -- the platter that Bran the Blessed serves from in the ''Mabinogion'', the cup in the 11th century Irish ''Prophetic Ecstasy of the Phantom (Baile in Scail)'' which forms the center of this story, & the similar ''Adventures of Art Son of Conn''. And there is no mention of Jessie Weston's work (e.g. ''From Ritual to Romance''), which while refuted by Loomis still has its followers. And I know of no authority who would insist this tale has a Gothic origin. I have fixed its earliest mention, where it is not a Christian relic, but an arguably magical, or perhaps even pagan, object. -- User:Llywrch 21:00, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Sorry, that's partly my fault. I came to this page as-is and wanted to include a more scholarly interpretaton based on Loomis' work. However, I haven't gotten around to doing it yet--so all that's included is a reference to it. User:DonQuixote 22:16, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Surely adding a reference to a standard work is always a good idea, even if you can't get hold of a copy at the moment. I've often been guilty. Wikipedia is still a work in progress. --User:Wetman 23:13, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC) :: Excuse my harshness, then. I'll see if I can't rewrite the introduction to fit Loomis' ideas into the article; I have 2 of his essays which set forth his thesis. But some note of this defeciency is needed, in order to alert the reader that there is a problem here, & to treat the material accordingly. -- User:Llywrch 19:53, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Wikipedia reintroduces the lost secret of elite education: :::''CAVEAT LECTOR'' :--User:Wetman 21:40, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC) :I added "Origins of the Grail". I tried to keep it as simple as possible, leaving out a lot of extra information such as the possible origins of the Fisher King, possible meanings of the relics, the migration of the tale from Britain to Brittany, etc. User:DonQuixote 22:32, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC) The best book I've read on the subject is "The Holy Grail: Imagination and Belief" (by Richard Barber) ([http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674013905/qid=1113260539/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-3040667-3992915]). Maybe one of the editors of this article would like to get it out from the library to help with the article? User:Porge 23:05, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC) (There's a short review by the Guardian: [http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1157662,00.html]) I changed a few things in the "Fate of the Grail" section, mostly to correct slightly wrong information and to make it more clear. I took out the line about Wolfram's Parzifal being one of the earliest books about the grail, because there were quite a few between Chretien and it. I also reworded the second paragraph to make it sound less like the Grail is a real object waiting to be found. And I said the stories about the grail being in Maryland and Nova Scotia were local folklore. I would assume they are, if they are not then a source should be added as I've never heard this anywhere. Chretien needs to be discussed much earlier in the article, as it is because of him that the Grail became as popular as it did. I'll add it when I have time if everyone's okay with this.--User:Cuchullain 17:26, 13 May 2005 (UTC) Added a section on Chretien.--User:Cuchullain 19:37, 13 May 2005 (UTC) Well written. In fact, I think it deserves its own section. Also, there should probably be a bit about the Breton conteurs from whom Chretien (directly or indirectly) drew his material (probably under The Grail and Arthurian Legend or a short section before Chretien's section but within Beginnings of the Grail in Literature). User:DonQuixote 02:32, 14 May 2005 (UTC) Actually, because of this new bit, The Grail Canon section should probably be tidied up a bit. User:DonQuixote 02:38, 14 May 2005 (UTC) :Since Barber disputes the Celtic pre-origins, the ''Early forms of the Grail'' section needs to be sourced, and brought to NPOV. User:Charles Matthews 10:41, 18 May 2005 (UTC) ::Just a helpful reminder, he mean Richard W. Barber and his book ''The Holy Grail: Imagination and Belief'' (2004) which is mentioned above (User:Porge 23:05, Apr 11, 2005). Now that you've mentioned Barber's criticism of the Celtic origin, I'm obliged to get a copy of his book. User:DonQuixote 15:57, 18 May 2005 (UTC) I think the new section Beginnings of the Grail in Literature should come before the Origins of the Grail. It might make it easier to include info on the origin of the legend in context (for example Loomis and Barber's research)--User:Cuchullain 21:18, May 18, 2005 (UTC) I removed this link: *[http://www.emerald-energies.com/biographies.php?authors_id=74 Free Video - Interview with Mark Amaru Pinkham, renown author and authority on the Knights Templar and Holy Grail] Discusses the mysteries of the Holy Grail, his connection and friendship with the Sinclair Clan, the energy of Roslyn Chapel and why it was built, and the perfection of the Sacred Geometry in the construction of this chapel. He talks about the origin of the lineage of the Johanites and rites of this ancient lineage, where the Templars went, and where 5 cases of treasure is believed to be. He talks about the Knights Templars and Mystery Schools as well as the mission of the Knights Templar. If someone ''really'' wants to keep it, they should at least change the description so it sounds less like an advertisement.--User:Cuchullain 22:27, May 22, 2005 (UTC) == Why link to a computer game? == Why should the ending of this sentence in the first paragraph ''A theme joined to the Christianised Arthurian mythos relates to the quest for the Holy Grail.'' link to the computer game Conquests of Camelot? Does it have any relevance in broadening the definition of Holy Grail? I suppose omitting the link at all and reword the sentence. The c. game could be mentioned in the "See also" section, if at all. Anyone share the same opinion? Or is there something in it I'm missing? User:Oneliner 23:07, 26 May 2005 (UTC) You're right, I took it out.--User:Cuchullain 23:36, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
#REDIRECTHoly Grail
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Holy_Grail
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Holy_grail
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Holy Grail
In Christian mythology, the Holy Grail was the dishware, plate (dishware), drinkware or vessel that Jesus drank from during the Last Supper. It was said to have the power to heal all wounds. The quest for the Holy Grail makes up an important segment of the King Arthur cycle. The legend may be a combination of genuine Christian lore with a Celtic mythology of a cauldron endowed with special powers. Whether ''graal'' is Celtic or Old French, it never refers to any cup or bowl but this. Though some Christian revisionists insist that the Holy Grail is not to be confused with the Holy Chalice, the vessel which Jesus used at the Last Supper to serve the wine, this has been the historical practice; various vessels have been put forward as the Last Supper chalice. According to the ''Catholic Encyclopedia'', it was only after the cycle of Grail Romance (genre) was well established, identifying the cup of the Last Supper with the Grail, that late medieval writers came up with a false etymology from the fact that in Old French, ''san grial'' means "Holy Grail" and ''sang rial'' means "royal blood". Since then, Sangreal is sometimes employed to lend a medievalizing air in referring to the Holy Grail. This connection with royal blood bore fruit in a modern best-seller linking many historical conspiracies (#Modern retellings). The development of the Grail legend has been traced in detail by cultural historians: it is a Gothic literature legend, which first came together in the form of written romances, deriving perhaps from some pre-Christian folkloric hints, in the later 12th century and early 13th century centuries. The early Grail romances centered on Percival and were then woven into the more general Arthurian fabric. The Grail romances started in France and were translated into other European vernaculars; only a handful of non-French romances added any essential new elements. Myths of the Grail fall into two kinds of narratives: the history or fate of the Grail and the quest for the Grail. ==Origins of the Grail== ===Distribution of Grail ideas=== Various notions of the Holy Grail are currently very widespread in Western Society (especially British and American), popularized through numerous medieval and modern works (see below) and linked with the predominantly Anglo-French (but also with some German influence) cycle of stories about King Arthur and his knights. Because of this wide distribution most Americans and West Europeans assume that the Grail idea is universally well known. The stories of the Grail are totally absent from Eastern Orthodox teachings and are not a part of the culture and mythos of those countries that were and are Orthodox (Orthodox Arabs, Orthodox Slavs, Orthodox Romanians, Orthodox Greeks). This is even more true of the Arthurian myths which were not well known (until the present day Hollywood retellings) east of Germany. The notions of the Grail, its importance, and prominence are, and should always be regarded as, a set of ideas that are essentially local and particular, being linked with Catholic or formerly Catholic locales, Celtic mythology, and Anglo-French medieval storytelling. The contemporary wide distribution of these ideas is due to the huge influence of the pop culture of countries where the Grail Myth was prominent in the Middle Ages. ===Early forms of the Grail=== The origins of the Grail can be traced back to early Celt lore involving a hero/traveller who finds himself within an "other world", one that is on a magical plane parallel to ours. The transition from one world to another is usually described subtly, such as an unnoticeable and gradual change in the scenery. The role of the Grail was simply as a platter, or dish, that would never go empty and be presented to signify the mystical nature of the other world. On the other hand, Joseph Goering of University of Toronto (Goering 2005) has identified sources for Grail imagery in 12th-century wall paintings from churches in the Catalonia Pyrenees (now mostly removed to the Museu Nacional d'Art de Catalunya, Barcelona) that present unique iconic images of the Virgin Mary holding a bowl that radiates tongues of fire, images that predate the first literary account by Chrétien de Troyes. Goering argues that they were the original inspiration for the grail legend. ===The Grail and the Fisher King=== The tale of the Fisher King involves a king who is lame in one leg (a euphemism for impotency) which in turn causes the land to become barren (infertile). The hero (Gawain in the earlier tales with Percival or Galahad in the later retellings) encounters the Fisher King and is invited to a feast, as in the older other-world tales. The Grail is again presented as a platter of plenty but is also presented as part of a series of mystical relics, which also included a spear that drips blood and a broken sword. The purpose of the relics is to incite the hero to question them and thereby, through some unknown means, break the enchantment of the infirm king and the barren land, although the hero invariably fails to do so. ===The Grail and Arthurian legend=== The story of the Fisher King and the Grail was later incorporated into the Matter of Britain. At first presented as a retelling of the older Fisher King tale, it eventually evolved into an explicit "quest" for the Grail. ==The beginnings of the Grail in literature== ===Chrétien de Troyes=== The Grail is first featured in ''Perceval, le Conte del Graal'' (The Story of the Grail) by Chrétien de Troyes, who claims he was working from a source book given to him by his patron, Count Philip of Flanders. In this incomplete poem, dated sometime between 1180 and 1191, the object has not yet acquired the implications of holiness it would have in later works. While dining in the magical abode of the Fisher King, Perceval witnesses a wondrous procession in which youths carry magnificent objects from one chamber to another, passing before him at each course of the meal. First comes a young man carrying a bleeding lance, then two boys carrying candelabras. Finally, a beautiful young girl emerges bearing an elaborately decorated ''graal'', or "grail". Chrétien refers to his object not as "The Grail" but as ''un graal'', showing the word was used, in its earliest literary context, as a common noun. For Chrétien the grail was a wide, somewhat deep dish or bowl, interesting because it contained not a pike, salmon or lamprey, as the audience may have expected for such a container, but a single Mass wafer which provided sustenance for the Fisher King’s crippled father. Perceval, who had been warned against talking too much, remains silent through all of this, and wakes up the next morning alone. He later learns that if he had asked the appropriate questions about what he saw, he would have healed his maimed host, much to his honor. ===Robert de Boron=== Though Chrétien’s account is the earliest and most influential of all Grail texts, it was in the work of Robert de Boron that the Grail truly became the “Holy Grail” and assumed the form most familiar to modern readers. In his verse romance ''Joseph d’Arimathie'', composed between 1191 and 1202, Robert tells the story of Joseph of Arimathea acquiring the chalice of the Last Supper to collect Christ’s blood upon His removal from the cross. Joseph is thrown in prison where Christ visits him and explains the mysteries of the blessed cup. Upon his release Joseph gathers his in-laws and other followers and travels to the west, and founds a dynasty of Grail keepers that eventually includes Perceval. ===The Grail in other early literature=== After this point, Grail literature divides into two classes. The first concerns King Arthur’s knights visiting the Grail castle or questing after the object; the second concerns the Grail’s history in the time of Joseph of Arimathea. The nine most important works from the first group are: * The ''Perceval'' of Chrétien de Troyes. * Four continuations of Chrétien’s poem, by authors of differing vision and talent, designed to bring the story to a close. * The German ''Parzifal'' by Wolfram von Eschenbach, which adapted at least the holiness of Robert’s Grail into the framework of Chrétien’s story. * The ''Didot Perceval'', named after the manuscript’s former owner, and purportedly a prosification of Robert de Boron’s sequal to ''Joseph d’Arimathie''. * The Welsh romance ''Peredur'' (generally included in the Mabinogion), based on Chrétien’s poem but including very striking differences from it. * ''Perlesvaus'', called the "least canonical" Grail romance because of its very different character. * The German ''Diu Crone'' (''The Crown''), in which Gawain, rather than Perceval, achieves the Grail. * The Lancelot, part of the vast Vulgate Cycle and introducing the new Grail hero, Galahad. * The Quest del Saint Grail, another part of the Vulgate Cycle, concerning the adventures of Galahad and his achievement of the Grail. Of the second class there are: * Robert de Boron’s ''Joseph d’Arimathie'', * The ''Estoire del Saint Graal'', the first part of the Vulgate cycle (but written after ''Lancelot'' and the ''Queste''), based on Robert’s tale but expanding it greatly with many new details. Though all these works have their roots in Chrétien, several contain pieces of tradition not found in Chrétien which are possibly derived from earlier sources. ==The Grail canon== ===Fate of the Grail=== A number of knights undertook the quest for the Grail, in tales annexed to Arthurian legend. Some of these tales tell of knights who succeeded, like Percival or the virginal Galahad; others tell of knights who failed to achieve the grail because of their tragedy flaws, like Lancelot. In Wolfram von Eschenbach's telling, the Grail was kept safe at the castle of Munsalvaesche (''mons salvationis'') or Montsalvat, entrusted to Titurel, the first Grail-King. Some, not least the monks of Montserrat, have identified the castle with the real sanctuary of Montserrat (mountain) in Catalonia. Belief in the Grail, and interest in its potential whereabouts, has never ceased. Ownership has been attributed to various groups (including the Knights Templar). There are cups claimed to be the Grail in several churches like the Valencia cathedral. The emerald chalice at Genoa, which was obtained during the crusades at Aleppo at great cost, has been less championed as the Holy Grail since an accident on the road while it was being returned from Paris after the fall of Napoleon revealed that the emerald was green glass. Other stories claim that the Grail is buried beneath Rosslyn Chapel or is to be found deep in the spring at Glastonbury Tor. Still other stories claim that a secret line of hereditary protectors keep the Grail, and local folklore in Nova Scotia and Accokeek, Maryland says that it was moved to these locations by a closeted priest aboard Captain John Smith of Jamestown's ship. ===Quest for the Grail=== The date of Grail sequences in the Welsh folktales, the ''Mabinogion'' are older than the surviving manuscripts (13th century). There is an English poem ''Sir Percyvelle'', of the 15th century. Then the legends of King Arthur and the Holy Grail were collected in the 15th century by Thomas Malory for his ''Le Morte d'Arthur'' which gave the body of legend its classic form. Important literary settings of Grail material include Chrétien de Troyes' ''Conte du Graal'' (French, late 12th century, the first romance to mention the Grail) and Wolfram von Eschenbach's ''Parzival'' (German, early 13th century). The parallels between ''Conte du Graal'' and ''Parzival'' are striking, but Wolfram stated that his tale came from a Provençal lay of a certain Kyot (Guiot). Wolfram also states that his romance is being transcribed for him, so the inference is that his sources were not written. Kyot has never been identified, and many have suggested that he does not exist. Richard Wagner recast Wolfram's version of the legend in his opera ''Parsifal'' (1883), opening the floodgates for the Grail in 20th century pop culture, both camp and campy. ===Four medieval relics=== During the Middle Ages, four major contenders for the position of Holy Grail stood out from the rest. #The earliest record of a chalice from the Last Supper is of a two-handled silver chalice which was kept in a reliquary in a chapel near Jerusalem between the basilica of Golgotha and the Martyrium. This Grail appears only in the account of Arculf, a 7th-century Anglo-Saxon pilgrim who saw it, and through an opening of the perforated lid of the reliquary where it reposed, touched it with his own hand which he had kissed. According to him, it had the measure of a Gaulish pint. All the people of the city flocked to it with great veneration. (Arculf also saw the Holy Lance in the porch of the basilica of Constantine.) This is the only mention of the chalice situated in the Holy Land. #There is a reference in the late thirteenth century to a copy of the Grail being at Constantinople. This occurs in the 13th century German romance, the ''Younger Titurel'': "A second costly dish, very noble and very precious, was fashioned to duplicate this one. In holiness it has no flaw. Men of Constantinople assayed it in their land, (finding) it richer in adornment, they accounted it the true grâl." This Grail was said to have been looted from the church of the Bucoleon during the Fourth Crusade and sent from Constantinople to Troyes by Garnier de Trainel, the then bishop of Troyes, in 1204. It was recorded there in 1610, but it disappeared at the French Revolution. #Of two Grail vessels that survive today, one is at Genoa, in the cathedral. The hexagonal Genoese vessel is known as the ''sacro catino'', the holy basin. Traditionally said to be carved from emerald, it is in fact a green Egyptian glass dish, about eighteen inches (37 cm) across. It was sent to Paris after Napoleon’s conquest of Italy, and was returned broken, which identified the emerald as glass. Its origin is uncertain; according to William of Tyre, writing in about 1170, it was found in the mosque at Caesarea in 1101: "a vase of brilliant green shaped like a bowl." The Genoese, believing that it was of emerald, accepted it in lieu of a large sum of money. An alternative story in a Spanish chronicle says that it was found when Alfonso VII of Castile captured Almeria from the Moors in 1147 with Genoese help, ''un uaso de piedra esmeralda que era tamanno como una escudiella'', "a vase carved from emerald which was like a dish". The Genoese said that this was the only thing they wanted from the sack of Almeria. The identification of the ''sacro catino'' with the Grail is not made until later, however, by Jacobus de Voragine in his chronicle of Genoa, written at the close of the 13th century. #The other surviving grail vessel is the ''santo cáliz'', an agate cup in the cathedral of Valencia. It has been set in a medieval mounting and given a foot made of an inverted cup of chalcedony. There is an Arabic inscription. The earliest secure reference to the chalice is in 1399, when it was given by the monastery of San Juan de la Peña to king Martin I of Aragon in exchange for a gold cup. By the end of the century a provenance had been invented for the chalice at Valencia, by which St Peter had brought it to Rome. ==Modern interpretations== ===Casual metaphor=== The legend of the Holy Grail is the basis of the use of the devalued term ''holy grail'' in modern-day culture. This or that "holy grail" is seen as the distant, all-but-unobtainable ultimate goal for a person, organization, or field to achieve. For instance, cold fusion or anti-gravity devices are sometimes characterized as the "holy grail" of applied physics. ===Modern retellings=== [[Image:holygrail.jpg|frame|right|''The Holy Grail'', by Dante Gabriel Rossetti]] The combination of hushed reverence and overheated chromatic harmonies of Richard Wagner's late opera ''Parsifal'' fatally inflated the Holy Grail theme, while it brought the old medieval tale back into a wider public consciousness. The high seriousness of the subject was also epitomized in Dante Gabriel Rossetti's painting (''illustrated''), in which William Morris's soulful Titian-haired wife, at the time the painter's mistress, holds the Grail like a champagne glass that she is about to make ring with a snap of her long finger. The Grail was overripe, and ''Monty Python and the Holy Grail'' (1975) deflated it and all pseudo-Arthurian posturings. The Grail had turned up in movies before: it debuted in a silent ''Parsifal''. In ''The Light of Faith'' (1922), Lon Chaney attempted to steal it, for the finest of reasons. ''The Silver Chalice'', a novel about the Grail by Thomas B. Costain was made into a 1954 movie (in which Paul Newman débuted), that is considered List of movies that have been considered the worst ever by several critics, including Newman himself. ''Lancelot of the Lake'' (1974) is Robert Bresson's gritty retelling. ''Excalibur (movie)'', a more traditional sex-in-armor representation of an Arthurian tale, in which the Grail is little more than a prop. ''Brancaleone at the Crusades''. ''The Fisher King (movie)'' and ''Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade'' place the quest in modern settings, the one serious yet unavoidably faintly camp, the other robustly self-parodying. Science fiction has taken the Quest into interstellar space, figuratively in Samuel R. Delany's 1968 novel ''Nova_(novel)'', and literally in the 1994 episode "Grail (Babylon 5)" of the television series ''Babylon 5''. For the authors of ''Holy Blood, Holy Grail'', who assert that their research ultimately reveals that Jesus may not have died on the cross, but lived to marry Mary Magdalene and father children, whose Merovingian bloodline continues today, the Grail is a mere sideshow. Dan Brown's bestselling novel ''The Da Vinci Code'' is likewise based on the idea that the real Grail is not a cup but the earthly remains of Mary Magdalene (again cast as Jesus' wife), plus a set of ancient documents telling the "true" story of Jesus, his teachings and descendants. In Brown's novel, it is hinted that the Grail was long buried beneath Rosslyn Chapel just like one tradition claims, but in recent decades its guardians had it relocated to a secret chamber embedded in the floor beneath the Inverted Pyramid in front of the Louvre Museum. Of course, the latter location has never been mentioned in real Grail lore. Yet such was the public interest in even a fictionalized Grail that the museum soon had to rope off the exact location mentioned by Brown, lest visitors inflict any damage in a more or less serious attempt to access the supposed hidden chamber. (See: La Pyramide Inversée.) ==Related articles== Cornucopia and sampo are other mythical vessels with magic (paranormal) powers. ==See Also== *Alleged relics of Jesus Christ *Monty Python and the Holy Grail for something "completely different" ==Further reading== *Roger Sherman Loomis, ''The Grail: From Celtic Myth to Christian Symbol'' ISBN 0691020752 *Malcolm Godwin, ''The Holy Grail: Its Origins, Secrets, & Meaning Revealed'' ISBN 0670851280 *Joseph Goering, 2005. ''The Virgin and the Grail : Origins of a Legend'' (Yale University Press) ISBN 0300106610 [http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=0300106610] ==External links== * [http://historymedren.about.com/cs/holygrail/ About: Medieval History Net: The Holy Grail] A list of links to 6 important sites of reference on the Holy Grail Arthurian legend Alleged relics of Jesus Metaphors
Holy Grail
So alternative interpretations of the grail like that in Dan Brown's - The Davinci Code are what? :A mixture of half-truths, willful distortions, and outright lies, mixed together into a ludicrous conspiracy theory that very few historians and mythologists take seriously: that's what such "alternative interpretations" are. ''The Da Vinci Code'' is fiction, and the foolishness that inspired it -- such wonderful works of "dubious historical resources" as ''Holy Blood, Holy Grail'' and ''The Templar Revelation'' -- deserve to be labeled as such. Just as I am a serious christian lunatic that can not accept the possibility of any alternative to what has been preached to the masses by power hungry priests throught the centuries!!! See Priory of Sion. : Not that the article shouldn't mention those pseudohistory, and I'll write the section myself if I can get through the aforementioned nonsense without flinging the books across the room in disgust, but it should make clear that such interpretations rely on poor research, questionable evidence, and a methodology that is more reminiscent of conspiracy theory than serious academic work. --User:Mirv 15:31, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC) :: While those alternative interpretations are being mentioned, don't leave out the legend that Mary Magdalene invented the Macarena and that "some scholars" feel that she is the patron saint of spanking because of the ancient manuscript found in the Holy Land "Paddlin' Magdalene Home." We can all make this stuff up... :Actually Macarena is the name of an advocation of Mary, mother of Jesus popular in Seville. So yes, there is a relation of Macarena to the Grail. -- User:Error 00:35, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC) ---- ==''Grail theories''== ''Many new legends have arisen over the centuries or during the modern revival of interest in the Grail that will describe it as either an emerald that fell from Lucifer's crown when he was thrown out of Heaven; the Philosopher's Stone; the Ark of the Covenant; a book of Jesus' geneology; the silver dish supporting John the Baptist's head; the sword used to cut off John the Baptist's head; the lance belonging to Longinus, the Roman soldier who transfixed Jesus' chest; a secret gospel written by Jesus; the cup used by Mary, sister of Lazarus to perfume Jesus' feet; the container of the Shroud of Turin; a round ball of glass filled with water held in a tree-like stand — the Thummim and the Urim; Aladdin's lamp, the Golden Fleece; or the Baphomet. One of the most popular theories claims that the Grail refers to both Mary Magdalene and a royal bloodline stemming from her marriage to Jesus.'' This is ignorant tripe invented by adolescents who think "hey, it's mythology" and you can just make up ''anything.'' This is an abuse of Wikipedia's tolerance of "alternative" theories. None of these "theories" have ever been connected with the Grail myth in anything more than a comic book. User:Wetman 20:54, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC) : The Mary Magdalene stuff is becoming au courant theory, at least in fiction. User:RickK | User talk:RickK 20:57, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC) What? Connected with the OriGraro? Only in the anime "Meri Magareno"! :Not at all. See "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" and "The Da Vinci Code". User:RickK | User talk:RickK 01:43, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC) :: Wetman, the 'Grail Theories' text was an unfinished summarization of the following material from an external reference: ''Other stories will describe the Grail as a large emerald that fell from Lucifer's crown when he was thrown out of Heaven; the Philosophers' Stone; the Ark of Covenant; a book of Jesus' geneology, written by Jesus;2 The chalice used to collect Jesus' blood; the silver dish supporting John the Baptist's head; the sword used to cut off John the Baptist's head; the lance belonging to Longinus, the Roman soldier who transfixed Jesus' chest; or a secret Gospel written by Jesus. According to Graham Phillips, the Grail is the cup used by Mary of Magdala to perfume Jesus' feet. Daniel C. Scavone suggests that the Grail is the Shroud of Turin. Baima Bollone writes that the Grail is the container of the Holy Shroud. Flavia Anderson, in The Ancient Secret claims that the Grail is a round ball of glass filled with water held in a tree-like stand — the Thummim and the Urim. Suggestions that the Grail was Alladin's lamp, the Golden Fleece or the Baphomet have also been made. For further information view: [http://www.chronique.com/Library/Knights/Grail.htm What is a Grail?] by Dr. Linda Malcor, [http://historymedren.about.com/cs/holygrail/ The History Net], "[http://www.byu.edu/ipt/projects/middleages/Arthur/grail.html An Introduction to Current Theories about The Holy Grail]" Chris Thornborrow. One of the oddest, but most popular, theories claims that the word Grail refers to a royal bloodline and that Jesus' descendents, through various secret societies, continue to manipulate global affairs.'' Regarding those two sources: the first one is decent, but the second one is problematic. This is a subject which, for hundreds of years, has spawned reams and reams of shoddy scholarship, halfwitted vaporings, and complete nonsense (often Holy Blood, Holy Grail), so it might be best not to rely too heavily on a poorly-referenced list compiled by some random person with no apparent qualifications. (Not that all the stuff on that page is worthless; at least one of those theories is well-known, and some of the others are at least attributed to one source or another; but caution and intellectual rigor are necessary.) —User:67.71.79.111 17:22, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC) ::My remarks were far from cautious, once again. Even tripe has sources though. A poem by someone. A drawing that was engraved and widely seen. Something. User:Wetman 19:49, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC) == The Grail in the ''Mabinogion'' == ''The date of Grail sequences in the Welsh folktales, the Mabinogion are older than the surviving manuscripts (13th century).'' I'm pretty familiar with the ''Mabinogion'' and I can't remember a single reference to the Grail in the Three Romances or in "Culwch ac Olwen." Certainly, characters typically associated with the Grail appear in several tales, but that's rather stretching the connection. I also imagine that the Cauldron of Rebirth that Bendigeidfran gives to Matholwch in "Branwen Ferch LLŷr" is related to the Grail legend, but I would consider this more a matter of two tales drawing on the same tradition than the Grail actually making an appearance in "Branwen." Am I missing something major, or are there in fact no Grail sequences in the ''Mabinogion''? I wanted to be sure before editing the page. --User:Paulbee 04:22, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC) :''Peredur fab Evrawg'' has parallels with Chretien's ''Perceval'', such as a procession of mysterious or sacred objects, including the bleeding spear: however, where Chretien has a ''graal'', the ''Peredur'' has a tray holding a man's head swimming in blood. If the Welsh tales are the original source, then the Grail would seem to be something weirder and nastier than usually thought. (Also note the apparent obsession of the ''Perlesvaus''/''High History of the Holy Graal'' with severed heads.) --User:Franey 11:30, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC) ==Multiplying Grails== An anonymous editor has inserted this: ''Still other stories claim that the Grail was moved variously to either Nova Scotia, or to Accokeek, Maryland by a priest aboard Captain John Smith's ship.'' Is this comedy, or what? Is the Holy Grail masquerading as a Dixie Cup in Moscow, Idaho then? I hesitate to revert this simply for underestimating popular ullibility... User:Wetman 00:57, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC) ==Valencia Santo Cáliz== Is the vessel called the ''Santo Cáliz'' a purported Holy Grail? I thought it was a purported Holy Chalice. That is what the Holy Chalice article says, as well as other sources [http://www.comunitatvalenciana.com/english/urbano/valencia/pag1_1.htm]. -User:Willmcw 22:43, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC) :In the Corpus Christi procession at Valencia,''" The float of honor is the Roca del Santo Grial, with a larger-than-life reproduction of the Holy Chalice of Valencia, maintained by tradition to be the very cup used by Jesus to institute the Eucharist."'' (source: http://www.archden.org/dcr/archive/20020424/2002042416ln.htm) Some Wikipedian has a project to disentangle the Chalice of the Last Supper from the Grail legend of the chalice at the Crucifixion. As many quotes such as the one above could demonstrate, disentangling the two is not easy, even with an urgent agenda. --User:Wetman 01:49, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) What are we tryimg to say about the Holy Chalice? That it is often mistaken for the Grail? That they may be the same thing? User:Wetman, I don't understand your edit. Can you explain? Cheers - User:Willmcw 00:40, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) Explained above. Are you the one trying to disentangle the two legends? --User:Wetman 01:49, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) :I certainly don't have an urgent agenda. Do you? I think that there are two separate relics being discussed. It may be worth pointing out that they can be mixed up, or that some people think they are the same thing, but that doesn't mean that they don't have separate existences. If there is confusion then a good task for an encyclopedia is to note that confusion and try to rectify it. What's the problem with that approach? And I'm really confused when you write that ''Christian revisionists'' insist they are different. Are there any who insist that they are the same thing? Who are these revisionists? -User:Willmcw 05:52, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) :The point of artfully disentangling what are patently inextricably connected legends, as so clearly demonstrated at Valencia, is a prelude to arguing that, though one may be a legend, the other is "authentic". I'm glad to hear that no such agenda is involved, for the medieval poetry certainly conflates the grail from the supper and the chalice from the crucifixion, or is it the other way round, right from the start. As every reader knows. --User:Wetman 10:27, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) :: I have removed ''The vessel of the Last Supper, a smallish cup made of marble is not lost, in fact it is still identified with several venerated relics, especially at the Spanish Cathedral of Valencia.'' since it includes statements which belong at Holy Chalice. "Is not lost" is a strange phrase in this case. --User:Henrygb 00:44, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC) ==Loomis' research== This article is unsatisfactory because while it mentions R.S. Loomis' work (whom I have been led to believe was the authority on the origin & growth of the Grail myth) in the Bibliography, it makes little use of his research. He provides numerous examples of themes from this story as having appeared in Celtic stories -- the platter that Bran the Blessed serves from in the ''Mabinogion'', the cup in the 11th century Irish ''Prophetic Ecstasy of the Phantom (Baile in Scail)'' which forms the center of this story, & the similar ''Adventures of Art Son of Conn''. And there is no mention of Jessie Weston's work (e.g. ''From Ritual to Romance''), which while refuted by Loomis still has its followers. And I know of no authority who would insist this tale has a Gothic origin. I have fixed its earliest mention, where it is not a Christian relic, but an arguably magical, or perhaps even pagan, object. -- User:Llywrch 21:00, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Sorry, that's partly my fault. I came to this page as-is and wanted to include a more scholarly interpretaton based on Loomis' work. However, I haven't gotten around to doing it yet--so all that's included is a reference to it. User:DonQuixote 22:16, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Surely adding a reference to a standard work is always a good idea, even if you can't get hold of a copy at the moment. I've often been guilty. Wikipedia is still a work in progress. --User:Wetman 23:13, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC) :: Excuse my harshness, then. I'll see if I can't rewrite the introduction to fit Loomis' ideas into the article; I have 2 of his essays which set forth his thesis. But some note of this defeciency is needed, in order to alert the reader that there is a problem here, & to treat the material accordingly. -- User:Llywrch 19:53, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Wikipedia reintroduces the lost secret of elite education: :::''CAVEAT LECTOR'' :--User:Wetman 21:40, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC) :I added "Origins of the Grail". I tried to keep it as simple as possible, leaving out a lot of extra information such as the possible origins of the Fisher King, possible meanings of the relics, the migration of the tale from Britain to Brittany, etc. User:DonQuixote 22:32, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC) The best book I've read on the subject is "The Holy Grail: Imagination and Belief" (by Richard Barber) ([http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674013905/qid=1113260539/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-3040667-3992915]). Maybe one of the editors of this article would like to get it out from the library to help with the article? User:Porge 23:05, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC) (There's a short review by the Guardian: [http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1157662,00.html]) I changed a few things in the "Fate of the Grail" section, mostly to correct slightly wrong information and to make it more clear. I took out the line about Wolfram's Parzifal being one of the earliest books about the grail, because there were quite a few between Chretien and it. I also reworded the second paragraph to make it sound less like the Grail is a real object waiting to be found. And I said the stories about the grail being in Maryland and Nova Scotia were local folklore. I would assume they are, if they are not then a source should be added as I've never heard this anywhere. Chretien needs to be discussed much earlier in the article, as it is because of him that the Grail became as popular as it did. I'll add it when I have time if everyone's okay with this.--User:Cuchullain 17:26, 13 May 2005 (UTC) Added a section on Chretien.--User:Cuchullain 19:37, 13 May 2005 (UTC) Well written. In fact, I think it deserves its own section. Also, there should probably be a bit about the Breton conteurs from whom Chretien (directly or indirectly) drew his material (probably under The Grail and Arthurian Legend or a short section before Chretien's section but within Beginnings of the Grail in Literature). User:DonQuixote 02:32, 14 May 2005 (UTC) Actually, because of this new bit, The Grail Canon section should probably be tidied up a bit. User:DonQuixote 02:38, 14 May 2005 (UTC) :Since Barber disputes the Celtic pre-origins, the ''Early forms of the Grail'' section needs to be sourced, and brought to NPOV. User:Charles Matthews 10:41, 18 May 2005 (UTC) ::Just a helpful reminder, he mean Richard W. Barber and his book ''The Holy Grail: Imagination and Belief'' (2004) which is mentioned above (User:Porge 23:05, Apr 11, 2005). Now that you've mentioned Barber's criticism of the Celtic origin, I'm obliged to get a copy of his book. User:DonQuixote 15:57, 18 May 2005 (UTC) I think the new section Beginnings of the Grail in Literature should come before the Origins of the Grail. It might make it easier to include info on the origin of the legend in context (for example Loomis and Barber's research)--User:Cuchullain 21:18, May 18, 2005 (UTC) I removed this link: *[http://www.emerald-energies.com/biographies.php?authors_id=74 Free Video - Interview with Mark Amaru Pinkham, renown author and authority on the Knights Templar and Holy Grail] Discusses the mysteries of the Holy Grail, his connection and friendship with the Sinclair Clan, the energy of Roslyn Chapel and why it was built, and the perfection of the Sacred Geometry in the construction of this chapel. He talks about the origin of the lineage of the Johanites and rites of this ancient lineage, where the Templars went, and where 5 cases of treasure is believed to be. He talks about the Knights Templars and Mystery Schools as well as the mission of the Knights Templar. If someone ''really'' wants to keep it, they should at least change the description so it sounds less like an advertisement.--User:Cuchullain 22:27, May 22, 2005 (UTC) == Why link to a computer game? == Why should the ending of this sentence in the first paragraph ''A theme joined to the Christianised Arthurian mythos relates to the quest for the Holy Grail.'' link to the computer game Conquests of Camelot? Does it have any relevance in broadening the definition of Holy Grail? I suppose omitting the link at all and reword the sentence. The c. game could be mentioned in the "See also" section, if at all. Anyone share the same opinion? Or is there something in it I'm missing? User:Oneliner 23:07, 26 May 2005 (UTC) You're right, I took it out.--User:Cuchullain 23:36, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
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