Graphic Novel

#redirect:Graphic novel

Graphic novel

"Graphic novel" (sometimes abbreviated GN) is a term for a kind of book, usually telling an extended story with sequential art (''i.e.'' comics). It is not strictly defined, and is often used to imply subjective distinctions between a given book and other kinds of comics. ==Definitions== "Graphic Novel" is most broadly used to refer to any long-form comic book or manga, ''i.e.'' the comics analogue to a prose novel or novella. It can apply to works which were previously published serially in periodical comic books, or to works produced specifically for book-format publication. Standards for what constitutes a "long-form" work vary. Publishers sometimes designate books of as few as 48 pages as "graphic novels", but whether works this short should be called "novels" is frequently disputed. Some use the term "graphic novella" for works that fit the general sense of the term (i.e. a single, well-developed story), but are less than 100 pages. The fact that books in this range can be published either "perfect-bound" (like a typical "novel") or "saddle-stitched" (like a typical "comic book") adds to the disagreement of whether the term should apply. Some people refer to works of several hundred or even thousands of pages, published in multiple volumes of hundreds of pages each (e.g. ''Cerebus the Aardvark'', ''The Sandman (DC Comics Modern Age)''), as a single "graphic novel". Others refer to each volume in such an extended work as its own "graphic novel" (e.g. ''High Society'' (the second volume of ''Cerebus''), ''A Season of Mists'' (the fourth volume of ''The Sandman'')). A serialised work of similar length may occasionally be called a "graphic novel" regardless of whether it has been published in collected form, by analogy to the works of writers such as Charles Dickens, which were first serialized and were (arguably) "novels" regardless of their publication format. Particularly in the book trade, the term is sometimes extended to include material that would not be considered a "novel" if produced in another medium. Collections of comic book issues that do not form a single continuous story, anthology of short loosely-related pieces (by a single creator or even by multiple creative teams), and even non-fiction are stocked by libraries and bookstores as "graphic novels". Other roughly synonymous terms, preferred by some to avoid the "disturbing" implications of the word "graphic", are "drawn book" and "visual novel". The term "graphic novel" is commonly used to disassociate works from the juvenile and/or humorous connotations of the terms "comics" and "comic book". It implies that the work is more serious, mature, and/or literary than traditional superhero or funny animal comics. Following the reasoning behind this distinction, the French term "Bande Dessin�e" is sometimes applied to certain English comic books and graphic novels - mostly by art historians and those creators and critics who are schooled in the fine arts - in order to further dissociate serious works of fine art from their supposedly more pedestrian counterparts. The usage is hotly contested, even though it is mostly limited to those same fine arts University departments. Some object to its use in reference to manga, arguing that the traditional stylistic treatment of Japanese works makes them distinct from the Western works for which the term was created. It is also used sometimes in contradistinction to "trade paperback", to emphasize that the work was created as a single, complex, but finite narrative, and not just collected arbitrarily from an ongoing melodrama. ==History== The term "graphic novel" was popularized by Will Eisner after it appeared on the cover of the trade-paper edition of ''A Contract with God'' (Baronet Books, published October 1978), a mature, complex work focusing on the lives of ordinary people in the real world. (The simultaneous hardcover did not use the term.) The label "graphic novel" was intended to distinguish it from traditional comic books, with which it shared a storytelling medium. Eisner cited as inspiration the 1930s books of Lynd Ward, who produced complete novels in woodcuts. The critical and commercial success of ''A Contract with God'' helped to establish the term "graphic novel" in common usage, and many sources have incorrectly credited Eisner with being the first to use it. In fact, it was used as early as November 1964 by Richard Kyle in ''CAPA-ALPHA'' #2, a newsletter published by the Comic Amateur Press Alliance, and again in Kyle's ''Fantasy Illustrated'' #5 (Spring 1966). In 1976 the term appeared in connection with three separate works: ''Bloodstar'' by Richard Corben (adapted from a story by Robert E. Howard) used the term on its cover. George Metzger's ''Beyond Time and Again'', serialized in underground comics from 1967-72, was subtitled "A Graphic Novel" on the inside title page when collected as a 48-page, black-and-white, hardcover book published by Kyle & Wheary. http://www.massmedia.com/~mikeb/booktour/george_metzger.htm ''Chandler: Red Tide'' by Jim Steranko used the term "graphic novel" in its introduction and was labelled "a visual novel" on the cover, although ''Chandler'' is more commonly considered an illustrated fiction than a work of comics. Since the term came into use, it has been applied retroactively to various works which did not use the term but fit (or nearly fit) the popular modern usage. These prototypical examples include Milt Gross ''He Done Her Wrong'' (1930), a wordless comic published in book format; Gil Kane's self-published, magazine-format comics novel, ''His Name is... Savage'' (1968, the same year Marvel Comics published two issues of the similarly magazine-format ''Spider-Man''); and Kane's illustrated novel ''Blackmark'' (1971), a sword-and-sorcery paperback published by Bantam. Another often-cited example is ''Sabre (graphic novel)'' by writer Don McGregor and artist Paul Gulacy (Eclipse Comics, October 1978). Calling itself a "graphic album," it marked the first time that an original heroic-adventure character in the American comic-book tradition was conceived expressly for the graphic-novel form. Other similar works pre-dating the term are book-length hardcover Franco-Belgian comics featuring Tintin, Asterix and Spirou, which have been popular since the 1960s. One could also classify the long-form sequential woodcut albums by Belgian Frans Masereel, such as ''Passionate Journey'', as early forms of graphic novel. ==Artistic movement== Eddie Campbell has issued a Eddie Campbell#Manifesto (2004) to the effect that the "graphic novel" is more the product of an artist, and that it follows that the term is therefore better used as a description of an artistic movement. Members of the movement are known as "Graphic Novelists". Campbell defines the major goal of the movement as being ''"to take the form of the comic book, which has become an embarrassment, and raise it to a more ambitious and meaningful level."'' Campbell sees the movement as drawing on many antecedents, notably woodcut novels, such as those by Lynd Ward, but does not wish the movement to be applied in relation to such antecedents. Further, Campbell rejects the notion that the term can be applied to the form of the work with any objective meaning, beyond those necessary for marketing purposes. ==Notable examples== * ''American Splendor'' by Harvey Pekar (writer), and Robert Crumb, Gary Dumm, Mark Zingarelli and other artists. * ''Blackmark'' by Gil Kane * ''Blankets (graphic novel)'' by Craig Thompson * ''Bone (comics)'' by Jeff Smith (cartoonist) * ''Cages (graphic novel)'' by Dave McKean * ''The New York Trilogy'' by Paul Auster, Paul Karasik and David Mazzucchelli * ''Cerebus the Aardvark'' by Dave Sim * ''A Contract with God'' by Will Eisner * ''Detectives Inc.'' by Don McGregor and Marshall Rogers * ''The Dark Knight Returns'' by Frank Miller and Lynn Varley * ''From Hell'' by Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell * ''Ghost in the Shell'' by Masamune Shirow * ''Ghost World'' by Daniel Clowes * ''Incal'' (L'Incal) by Jean Giraud and Alejandro Jodorowsky * ''It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken'' by Seth (cartoonist) * ''Locas'' by Jaime Hernandez * ''Jimmy Corrigan'' by Chris Ware * ''Louis Riel: A Comic-Strip Biography'' by Chester Brown * ''Maus (graphic novel)'' by Art Spiegelman * ''Nausica%E4 of the Valley of Wind'' by Hayao Miyazaki * ''Our Cancer Year'' by Harvey Pekar, Joyce Brabner and Frank Stack * ''Palestine (graphic novel)'' by Joe Sacco * ''Palomar (graphic novel)'' by Gilbert Hernandez * ''Persepolis (graphic novel)'' by Marjane Satrapi * ''Road to Perdition'' by Max Allan Collins and Richard Piers Rayner * ''Sabre (graphic novel)'' by Don McGregor and Paul Gulacy * ''Sin City'' by Frank Miller * ''The Books of Magic'' by Neil Gaiman * ''The Sandman (DC Comics Modern Age)'' by Neil Gaiman * ''Stuck Rubber Baby'' by Howard Cruse * ''Watchmen'' by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons * ''When the Wind Blows'' by Raymond Briggs ==Related terms== * Artist's book * collage novel * comic book * Manga * Trade paperback (comics) ==References== * * ==External links== *[http://www.comics-db.com/ The Big Comic Book DataBase] an online searchable database of graphic novel and creator information. * [http://my.voyager.net/~sraiteri/graphicnovels.htm Recommended Graphic Novels for Public Libraries] * [http://www.geocities.com/dawnanik/grnovels.htm Graphic Novels and Comic Trade Paperbacks - An Annotated List] * [http://www.adh.brighton.ac.uk/schoolofdesign/MA.COURSE/TheLectListPage.html The Visual Telling of Stories Archive] * [http://www.tcj.com/messboard/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002261-2.html The Comics Journal Message Board: The history of the term "graphic novel"] * [http://www.geocities.com/rucervine/ Archive of The Comics Journal Message Board: The history of the term "graphic novel"] *[http://www.time.com/time/columnist/arnold/article/0,9565,542579,00.html The Graphic Novel Silver Anniversary] Comic books Graphic novels

Graphic novel

I removed Dragon Ball Z from 'related artforms' because this is obviously incorrect. If there is a notable graphic novel titled 'Dragon Ball Z' it could be added to the list of GNs, but I don't know that this is the case. User:Ike9898 22:01, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC) == Novel vs. comic-strip/book reprints == Just to open this for discussion, since it seems to be the elephant in the room: Can a collection of comic strips or comic books in book format constitute a "graphic novel"? If so, would a collection of, say, Steve Canyon adventure-comic strips, in a trade-paper book be a "graphic novel"? Would a hardcover collection of Frank Cho's Liberty Meadows be a "graphic novel"? Would a collection of strips without a continuing story, such as the recently released Peanuts hardcovers be a "graphic novel"? If so, why; if not, why not? Extending this question, would, say, a six-issue collected trade-paper of a recent, self-contained Spider-Man story arc be considered a "graphic novel"? In the 19th century, Dickins and others would serialize a novel in newspapers before collecting them as a novel -- "A Christmas Carol," for instance. Does this analogy hold true today, or was that a relic of its time no longer applicable? Any ideas? *This is currently being discussed over at Category talk:Graphic novels. General consensus seems to be that the term is so loosely defined, it means all your examples above are graphic novels. Wikipedia isn't here to set rules, merely record the facts, and at the moment, the facts are that some people will say they are, and some people will say they aren't. *(Also, it'd be really handy if you Wikipedia:Why create an account?, so that you could sign your comments.) User:Steve block 15:08, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC) Thank you for the above; I will look into that discussion. It would be awkward to sign up under my name. I don't mean to be mysterious; simply that I'm a public figure (not Don MCGregor, Paul Gulacy, or anyone whose name I would ever enter). My IP address IDs me, insofar any changes/additions are certainly not secretive; if my changes/additions are deemed offensive, I'm sure the Wikimedia Foundation could simply block it. Thank you for understanding. == Notable examples == Should the Notable examples section be made into a separate page? This list is quite long, and sort of hampers the article's presentation. A couple notable examples could be included in the text (First graphic novel, best selling graphic novel, etc.), and this list could be moved to List of graphic novels, which could be set to NOT redirect to List of comic books. User:Siroxo—User:SiroxoUser talk:SiroxoUser:Siroxo 06:53, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC) *Actually, I think it should be merged into list of comic books. Most of the graphic novels listed are actually reprints of comic book magazines; and many of the comic books at list of comic books are non-magazine format comics from outside of the US. If there exists both list of graphic novels and list of comic books, there will be substantial overlap between the two. -User:Gtrmp 07:37, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC) **Good point. Perhaps that should be done, and things like ''Maus'' that don't fit into list of comic books should be left on this page, along with an obvious link to List of comic books. Also, list of comic books could be updated to include whether or not the comics were compiled into graphic novels. User:Siroxo—User:SiroxoUser talk:SiroxoUser:Siroxo 10:50, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC) ***But ''Maus'' is a comic book. -User:Gtrmp 21:28, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC) ****Question of definition. I guess it could be considered a book in comic form =S, as far as I have understood it, "comic books" generally refer to short magazines in A5(?) size, like Spider-Man, Batman and Archie. *****I'd agree that the list should be moved to List of graphic novels, which should definitely not be set to redirect to List of comic books. There should be overlap between the two, but the two are seperate publishing forms, and that should be recognised. User:Steve block 20:12, 11 May 2005 (UTC) ==Manga== I think it's a little absurd (and POV) to mandate yet include stuff like DC and Marvel comics. Personally, I'd rather see neither Japanese nor American mainstream comics in this list, but I'm not going to summarily remove all of them. Instead, I've added ''Ghost in the Shell'' by Masamune Shirow — most definitely a graphic novel ''and'' a manga. User:BencUser_talk:Benc 06:54, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC) : So we've got ''Ghost in the Shell'' and ''Nausicaa'' on the list, but where does it end? Where do you draw the line? "Graphic novel" is too ambiguous of a term. Viz is marketing Bleach (manga) as a Graphic Novel. That's definitely "mainstream," so does it go on the list? There are many many works of manga that could be on this list, but for the sake of categorization, I would leave manga in the list of manga. - User:Mako098765''User_talk:Mako098765'' 08:17, 11 May 2005 (UTC) ::I don't think the distinction is between mainstream and non mainstream, it's a distinction that troubles all publishing mediums. The literary novel is probably just as ambiguous a term. I think the distinction here is between something that is primarily a collection of stories, such as a New X-Men collection or a manga collection, and a story that works as a standalone story with mature themes, has depth, probably being multi-layered. That doesn't mean a graphic novel can not be composed of a series of collections, as is the case with Cerebus. I would be wary, though, in utilising a publishers marketing strategy in deciding the merits of a particular work. ::Also, does this have to be a definitive list, or just a general guide? User:Steve block 12:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC) :::About "mainstream," I was just referring back to Benc's comment. About manga, most manga has a storyline, whether mature or not. And I would see this list as a general guide. - User:Mako098765''User_talk:Mako098765'' 02:04, 12 May 2005 (UTC) ::::I was tackling Benc's comments as much as yours with regards "mainstream". With regards manga having storylines, I would tend to be of the opinion that most manga could probably be defined as graphic novels, as long as they are a finite story. I think whether it merits the term notable depends on the themes and layers of the work. And by mature I meant that it needed to be addressing themes aimed at literate readers. It does tend to get complicated because the tradition in the US is different to that in Japan, or even my own UK where we wouldn't dream of calling a collection of Beano strips a Graphic Novel. ::"''Where does it end ?''"" This is just a list of notable graphic novels. It can be Japanese/US/EU/..., mainstream/independant, ... This list is just a general guide. A definitive list is impossible to write and does not even exist ! We should just add what we believe is a ''notable'' graphic novel, forgetting every other issue. User:Lvr 15:01, 11 May 2005 (UTC) :::Honestly, I've never heard of half the stuff currently on the list. Accordingly, I could add a bunch of manga that most comic-oriented folks have never heard of, but are very well-known in Japan. Notability is a hard thing to pin down, considering that there are many different audiences. - User:Mako098765''User_talk:Mako098765'' 01:57, 12 May 2005 (UTC) ::::I'm not sure there would be a huge problem if you added a few examples of the most notable manga, regardless of whether I've heard of them or not, as long as you felt they were notable. Someone could always disagree and remove them at some point. Most of the entries on the list I would certainly call notable, although I'm not convinced myself that Books Of Magic is, and that Sin City and Road To Perdition's places are probably only merited by the movie adaptations of them, which make them notable to a wider audience rather than any intrinsic artistic endeavour. But then that's the thing about artistic valuations, I guess. It's all about consensus building. :::::I'm thinking about separating out the manga into a subsidiary list, and further elaborating on the relationship between graphic novels and manga, the marketing terms, etc. - User:Mako098765''User_talk:Mako098765'' 20:13, 13 May 2005 (UTC) Toulouse Lautrec's art style was influenced by japanese woodblock prints, not manga. Art style and means of telling a story are two completely different things. User:Wareware 19:28, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC) == Maus and Palestine == The definition doesn't really work at least for those two works. They may have POV, but they are asserted to be a description of real events in book/comic form. The fact that they may have added dialog for flow or description doesn't alter that--they would be rather similar to oral history which, while flawed, is not fiction. Graphic book? -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 22:37, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC) :There is a some discussion of this over at the WikiProject Comics talk page. However you cut it, Maus has to be counted as a Graphic Novel, if only because it has for so long been understood as a signal work in this category. Representing the characters as cats and mice is probably enough to qualify it as fiction, though as I recall, it showed up on both "fiction" and "nonfiction" bestseller lists. In practice, a book-length narrative in comics form (including "Louis Riel" or "Palestine" or "Persepolis" ) seems to qualify as a GN. --User:BTfromLA 23:50, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::Yeah, please see the project page. I'm wondering though...maybe fiction is not an important part of the definition. Maybe it just has to be an extended story, fiction or not. User:Ike9898 01:36, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC) :::I took out all the "fictional"s in my edit of 21:07, 23 Dec 2004. User:Randolph Hoppe 02:39, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC) :Not to be facetious, but the use of animals to represent real humans doesn't make the work fiction any more than using human actors (or drawings of humans) make a recreation of an historical event fiction. Then we have works like Animal Farm which could easily be depicted as a comic book using the designated animals. Animal Farm is more fiction than Maus is, in the sense that the events as well as the identity of the actors are fictionalised, but Animal Farm is not exactly fiction. Perhaps we could there are subclasses of ''allegorical graphic novel'' or ''historical graphic novel''. -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 15:03, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::Animal Farm is unambiguously a work of fiction; contrast it with, say, Down and Out in Paris and London. "Fiction" does not mean fantasy disconnected from real events. That said, if the entry grows, having a subheading (but not a separate entry) like "historical", or "journalistic" or "autobiographical" graphic novel makes sense to me, as a way of surveying the field. --User:BTfromLA 17:38, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::PS--Using human actors DOES make a recreation of an event fiction. The movie "The Aviator," for example, is fiction. A film made up exclusively of original film of Howard Hughes and comments from people who knew him would be nonfiction (the word "documentary" is usually applied to films). The idea that movies with actors are considered a reliable source of historical information is a real collapse-of-civilization problem, in my view. :::Not necessarily. Yes, you are not seeing the actual event with the real people. If you tried to pass it off as the actual event, that would be a fiction. If the recreation accurately depicts the events, then it is an historical play. The fact that movie-makers bastardize history with their own POV and the guileless public swallows it doesn't mean that all such presentations must be fiction simply because the people in it are actors, any more than a history book is fiction because it consists of words describing an event, rather than the event itself. -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 20:38, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::::If actors are hired to, say, read the arguments in the Federalist papers�using the actual words of the historical personages they are representing�I guess I'd agree that is more historical reportage than fiction. But that strikes me as a rather special case; most films or theatrical portrayals of historical people and events are heavily fictionalized--events are compressed, dialogue invented, etc., in the service of drama (and commercial viability). And there's the question of the way that the "presence" and emotional "tone" of the figures are interpreted by actors and via editing. Of course, the line between fiction and fact is blurry, and there may actually be an interesting question here that is relevant to the "graphic novel" topic: is the interpretive invention required to portray events in comics such that it imposes a layer of fiction on the material? In other words, does a comics treatment (or a movie treatment, with actors) of a story involve a sort of imaginitive visual intervention that renders jounalism or history into fiction, in a way that writing alone does not? --User:BTfromLA 21:14, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::Animal Farm IS A WORK OF FICTION. (And not because of the animals!) User:Ike9898 19:30, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC) :::Point taken, but your evaluation shows why Animal Form is not fiction. It is a political tract (which may be fiction) that satirizes real events and people and comes to controversial conclusions. A Trotskyist and a Stalinist will certainly disagree on whether its fiction; likewise, a modern-day socialist who thinks it affirms Capitalism at the expense of Communism is apt to view it as fiction. Hamlet's "play within a play" was certainly fiction (in the context of the story) but showed a "real" event in sufficient detail to discomfort King Claudius. So the play within surely pretended to be fiction, but wasn't quite. -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 20:38, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::::I think you have a mistaken understanding of "fiction." It sounds as if you are confusing fiction with escapist fantasy. I don't understand how there's any basis for thinking there's some sort of contradiction between "fiction" and an expression of ideas about real events in the world. A Trotskyist and a Stalinist may disagree about the value of Orwell's characterization of events, but even if a reader declares the book to be profoundly true and accurate, it still remains a work of fiction--the settings, dialogue, plot, characters; they are all imaginitive constructions that would not exist but for Orwell.--User:BTfromLA 21:14, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC) :::No, I don't think I'm mistaken. I think I'm trying to say that there are gradations in what we consider fiction, and fact, as well. Maybe I'm misreading him, but I would gues when Ike9898 says "Animal Farm IS A WORK OF FICTION" he is not taking your usage, but saying that the ''interpretation of its factual elements are wrong''. Now these are semantic differences, but I believe they're important semantic differences and related to the current discussion. :::To take a current political issue, Michael Moore's Farenheit 9/11 is almost universally described as a documentary, which would definitely make it non-fiction. In fact, many consider the term documentary to imply a ''higher'' state of reality: "It just ''documents'' what is." I haven't seen the film, but I understand that one much-talked about element is that Moore indicates that the White House flew Saudis out of the country, implicitly at Bush's orders or consent, but Richard Clarke, the prominent Bush critic acknowledged that he, and he alone, ordered the evacuation of Saudi nationals. So that part, at least, of Moore's film is a fiction. Juxtiposition of real events to create a context other than those they originally existed in could also be said to create a fiction, yet we don't call Moore's entire film fiction. :::To make my point explicitly, you have: :::*Fiction: a Superman comic book, say, though it may contain representations of real people or events; :::*Fictionalized biography: the names and events have been changed but are easily recognizable, and clearly fictional elements are introduced. An example is Bob Fosse's ''All That Jazz'', a semi-autobiography in which he is called "Joe Gideon" but a great deal in it is accurate to his life and work, including his own death. We might also put Maus in this category. :::*Allegorical biography: the people and events are almost all directly recognizable, and the allegory may be correct, false, or an interpretation in between. Animal Farm. :::*Historical fiction: A fictional story that contains real people and real events, but the plot is fictional and the events may altered, juxtiposed, parts invented, historical figures interacting the characters: ''The Gangs of New York'' movie. :::Each example takes a step away from pure fiction (you may argue on the order) but I think it represents real issues that could help our discussion. In fact, perhaps the problem is the word novel (which is kind of unavoidable) rather than fiction. I think we're getting away from the point. We should try to reach a consensus on: 1) Can a work of non-fiction be considered a novel? ''I vote yes'' 2) What types of long form non-fiction are definently not novels? ''I believe that Understanding Comics is not a novel because it does not tell a story''. I think the consensus answers to these questions will help refine our definition of ''graphic novel''.User:Ike9898 00:43, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC) :I wish I had a copy of the OED, but: ::novel: ''extended fictional work in prose; usually in the form of a story" ::''a printed and bound book that is an extended work of fiction; "his bookcases were filled with nothing but novels"; "he burned all the novels" [www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn] ::''an invented prose narrative that is usually long and complex and deals especially with human experience through a usually connected sequence of events [http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary] ::graphic novel: ''a fictional story for adults that is presented in comic-strip format and published as a book" [http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary] :Seems like novel = fiction. Where does that leave us? -- User:Cecropia | User talk:Cecropia 04:07, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC) :::If a comic book can be defined as neither comical nor a book, can't a 'graphic novel' be defined as neither fiction nor novelistic? I've come to think "long-form comic book" nails it - and therefore includes Understanding & Reinventing Comics, Maus, Palestine. The cover of my copy of Eisner's work says "A Contract With God, and other Tenement Stories" and "A Graphic Novel". It's a collection of stories! :::* A graphic novel is a long-form comic book. Graphic novels are not necessarily fiction as the term implies; long form comic book story collections, anthologies and documentaries are considered graphic novels. ??? User:Randolph Hoppe 04:31, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC) I agree with Ike9898 and Rand--however we parse the definition of fiction, in practice book-length narrative comics like Persepolis and Maus are known as "Graphic Novels," and it would be inappropriate for us to rule them out. I think our second--marketing related--definition is sufficient to alleviate confusion about this. I would agree that McCloud's didactic comics don't qualify on grounds that they don't tell a story (although even that could be argued--but there is something different in what they expect from the reader than the other works mentioned here. Maybe it relates to the "suspension of disbelief," the entry into an imaginary world of events). --User:BTfromLA 17:28, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC) ==Derision of the term== I'm not very well-connected with the comic book community, but I seem to think that the term "graphic novel" is often mocked by outsiders as a glorified synonym for comic book. Any thoughts on this, or am I just imagining things from my own personal parallel universe? --User:BDD 03:16, 10 May 2005 (UTC) *And some have really latched on to it as a "safe" or acceptable way to refer to comics. This is what's so frustrating about terminology - no definition is going to be valid for everybody, and few could accurately describe the opinions of even a majority. -User:Phthoggos 06:19, May 10, 2005 (UTC) ::I thought so (glad I'm not crazy). Is this kind of occurrence frequent enough to merit mention here? --User:BDD 12:40, 10 May 2005 (UTC) ::: I personally don't think so, although I've never heard or seen the mockery. User:Steve block 20:15, 11 May 2005 (UTC) == Sabre == I removed the text italicised below because I don't think the publication date of 1978 makes it notable in the sense it is being used since we already have three examples of the form which utilise the term with prior publication dates of 1976. It's also disputable that a ''standard of a single narrative in "regular" book format'' exists within the form as of now. Text removed: '' ''Sabre (graphic novel)'' by writer Don McGregor and artist Paul Gulacy was published in October 1978, and although it was labeled a "graphic album" and was, at 38 story-pages, shorter than most "graphic novels," it fit the standard of a single narrative in "regular" book format.'' User:Steve block I am reinserting it since, as it came out the same year as A Contract With God, it is absolutely of historical note. It was the first such example in the United States of superheroic adventure fiction sold in comic-book shops, a point I thought wasn't necessary to add but which may make its importance clearer. No one else in the U.S. -- not Marvel, not DC, no one -- was the first to create an original character designed EXPRESSLY for publication as a graphic novel.; *Since there are three works published in 1976 it's not historically notable for coming out in 1978. The new wording makes the notability much clearer, thank you. User:Steve block 21:38, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Reversion == I've reverted the page because I don't think the text regarding Sabre being historically important for being the first character created for a graphic novel holds water anymore, given that the page has a prior example with Gil Kane's ''His Name is...Savage''. As for Sabre setting a form for the graphic novel, since there still isn't any agreement on that form, that can't really be accurate. * His Name Is...Savage (and I'm the one who added the previuosly unmentioned Kane work to the History section, so I do respect and unknoweldge it) was in magazine form. MAGAZINE. That's like Creepy, Eerie, Vampirella. Or, more similarly. to Marvel's two 1968 magazines titled The Spectacular Spider-Man (not the later comic book, but two Warren-like magazines, the first black-and-white insider, the second in color). So are these two Spider-Man magazines graphic novels? Contrary to the statement you make, there IS agreement that a graphic novel is in book form -- unless you'd like to go and delete the first line of this entry: "Graphic novel" (sometimes abbreviated GN) is a term for a kind of book...." This continuing denial of Sabre's historic importance is disturbing. The creators of Sabre are not major names like Eisner or Kane, yet why should that stop a historian from giving Sabre credit as the remarkable breaththrough that is was. WHO was doing graphic novels at the time? There was Eisner. There was a Silver Surfer trade paperback. And there was Sabre. In 1978, that was it. Eclipse Books was doing something no one else was doing -- creating an original heroic-fantasy character specifically for the graphic novel format: a comic-book in book form. However, to compromise, I edited the "standard" phrase and substitued a more general description that simply states a concrete fact of its physical form. Now I'm not advocating the following, but just to make a point: You want to delete something, delete Beyond Time and Again, a copy of which I own: It's just a collection of comic strips -- no different than a Steve Canyon or Dick Tracy collected edition. HOWEVER, I have enough respect for the contributor who included it as a proto-source (and few things in culture erupt full-blown -- there's no concensus of where electric blues, rockabilly and C&W morphed into rock-n-roll), that's fine with this humble contributor. I even ADDED historically important details to the Beyond Time and Again mention. I've asked before, and I'll ask again: In America, where comic books originated (as did jazz and exceeding small number of other indiginous arts), who created an original heroic-fiction character specifically for the medium of a comic-book in book form before this? 24.215.163.254 2:37 PM EST, June 11, 2005 And I've ''explained'' this before, and I'll explain it ''again'': That isn't anyone's (except maybe yours) definition of "graphic novel", so it's not relevant to this article. Yes, the statement that Sabre was the first "original heroic-fiction character specifically for the medium of a comic-book in book form" is a fact. Yes, it's important. But it's important to ''the article about Sabre''. And the one about ''Eclipse''. And the one about ''McGregor''. That's where these declarations belong. In ''this'' article, all it really warrants is the same attention that ''other'' like-a-graphic-novels that no one actually ''called'' a "graphic novel" at the time: They each got a sentence. I'm sorry if you think this is some conspiracy to deny McGregor and Gulacy and Eclipse credit, but it's not. It doesn't matter whether they "deserve" it more or "need" it more than Kane or Eisner. That's for the Wikipedia ''reader'' to judge, not its editors. User:Tverbeek 20:09, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) * I did not write that lead sentence, actually. Whether the historical facts I cite are relevant to a section titled "History" is up to the readers, as you say. What makes your observations as a reader more relevant than mine? I don't necessarily agree with the Metzger citation, or the collected Euro comic-strip books, but I'm certainly not going to disrespect the contributors who felt they belonged here as important background for perspective. Rather than deleting them, I added to them, to HELP that contributor provide perspective and nuance. I'm confused and saddened about why an addition of perhaps two sentences bother you so much, takes so much of your time and energy. Wouldn't it be good to live and let live, and respect each other's judgment? Clarifying or correcting each other's work is necessary and important. Deleting things just because you don't like them is not in the cooperative, live and let live spirit of this wonderful enterprise. Please, in all well-meant sincerity, consider this. You, I and others are taking our valuable time and knowledge to work together on this. What an incredible thing that is. 24.215.163.254 8:18PM EST, June 11, 2005 You're either deliberately misinterpreting me or just not reading very carefully. I did ''not'' say to put it all in and let the readers decide what's relevant. The topic of the article determines what's relevant to the article. Is this definition of "graphic novel" you keep insisting we apply to Sabre a widely-accepted one? If so, it's relevant. If not, it's just your opinion. "I think so" is not a valid reason for including something in an article. It has to be something that people in general agree belongs. Wikipedia is not a "live and let live" group hug; it's more of a crucible where material is relentlessly reviewed and revised until opinions are purged and only the agreed-upon facts emerge. I'm sorry that my strong concern for keeping Wikipedia articles readable and to-the-point - which sometimes means taking borderline cruft out - "confuses and saddens" you, but I'm not quite prepared to give in on that point. User:Tverbeek 03:08, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC) * I find it troubling that you believe your "I think so" is more authoritative than another person's. What in the facts abouts ''Sabre'' makes it less-than-important historically? The facts are that it was the first of its kind; that even at 38 pages, it's a much denser story than the much more ballyhoed ''A Contract with God'' (which came out the very same month, so it's not as if ''Contract'' came out first) in that ''Contract'' often uses a whole page for a single panel; and ''Contract'' is a collection of short stories and not a "novel" in the accepted sense. I'm certainly not creating a definition of "graphic novel"; do a google search and you'll see ''Sabre'' referred to as that over and over again. What is your take on these points? Also, I'm surprised and concerned by the sarcasm of "group hug." That seems an unecessaily combative way to characterize teamwork and cooperation -- each mind adding facts, nuances and perspective. Again I would give this example: While I may personally disagree with the inclusion of Mezter's Beyond Time and Again, since it's simply a comic-strip collection, I have enough collegial respect for whichever contributor added it that I said, "He considers it relevant, there are factual aspects of it that support this relevancy (such as Metzger's early adoptionn of the phrase "graphic movel" for his work), and I can add these relevant additional facts (such as the length of the book, which is something of much discussion throughout this topic)." Please have enough respect for your colleagues to give facts to support your contention of why something should or should not be included. Otherwise, it is just saying, to use your phrse, "I think so." What in the ''Sabre'' portion of the history is not factual or not important? In the meantime, please accept my thanks for the time, effort and love of the form that you show. 24.215.163.254 8:53PM EST, June 12, 2005 :*''Nobody's'' "I think so" puts something into Wikipedia. If I think one thing, and you think a different thing, the rule is that ''neither'' thing gets put in as a "fact". When in dispute, you leave it out. (Sorry that doesn't quite rhyme.) So it doesn't matter whether you or I think that Metzger's book is a graphic novel. In fact, if you read carefully, you'll see we aren't ''saying'' it's a graphic novel. We're just reporting that he ''called it'' a grapic novel, which is a verifiable and objective fact. If McGregor had called ''Sabre'' a graphic novel, it'd be listed there as well. Instead he called it a "graphic album" which is close enough for a mention, but not the same thing. User:Tverbeek 14:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC) ** The Metzger thing was in response to Steve block 21:38, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC) having said "Since there are three works published in 1976 [Sabre is] not historically notable for coming out in 1978," with appeared to treat Metzer's Beyond and Steranko's Chandler as graphic novels, not just things calling themselves graphic novels. Since then, much clarifcation'sbeen done all around about. No biggie. 24.215.163.254 11:53AM EST, June 13, 2005 *I think the part that isn't important is that it's the first US example of an original heroic-adventure character being conceived expressly for a single form comics narrative for publication in book format. That's important in respect to Sabre, but I'm not convinced it is important to the form of a graphic novel. I mean, do we list all examples of non-heroic character', anthropomorphic characters, and so on, and their respective first works? And it'd be nice to get a cite on it being conceived for the format, because I don't know beyond you telling me that it. User:Steve block 12:01, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC) :*Exactly. All that stuff: "heroic adventure", "original character", etc. might make it important (and I think they do), but they aren't relevant to the topic of this article. User:Tverbeek 14:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC) ** I absolutely do see your point about overextension parsing, User:Steve block. The American comic book's most pervasive cultural contribution is superhero heroic-adventure (Technically speaking some characters like Batman or The Phantom aren't super, per se, and not all wear masked superhero costumes, so I try not to use the term in this context -- though certainly the wide public calls Batman a superhero). This creates an immediately visible and culturally significant distinction between a work like ''A Contract with God'' (ordinary people, naturalistic drama, a precursor to ''American Splendor'') and ''Sabre'' (firmly and visibly in the comic-book tradition), both in content and form. Unlike, say, the first Western graphic novel or the first funny-animal graphic novel (which would certainly be interesting if not necessarioy important to know), the first traditional comic-book character/story in graphic-novel form is historically significant. You're right, too, in that specificity in a general topic can go too far. User:Steve block made a very sensible move of Eisner background-influence quotes to the ''Contract with God'' entry while retaining the important fact of the woodcut ''Frankenstein'''s direct influence. Accordingly, I've shortened the three Sabre sentences to two and moved some information to the Sabre entry. Having done that, the below might be sueprfluous, but User:Steve block and User:Tverbeek bring up thoughtful and important points that deserve discussion. Having been released at the same time as ''A Contract with God,'' ''Sabre'' is at least as important in terms of historical firsts. A preponderance of sources online and elsewhere credit the book as "groundbreaking" http://frpeneaud.free.fr/artists/Russell/RussellCollections.html or even (with the kind of understandable overstatement we're collaboratively correcting for here) http://www.bookpalace.com/acatalog/Home_Rare_Books__P___S_292.html "Widely recognised as the first Graphic Novel..." Similarly, Mike Sangiacomo in the newspaper The [Cleveland] Plain Dealer (January 23, 1999) writes, "Don McGregor and Paul Gulacy were 20 years ahead of their time when they did the first comic graphic novel: SABRE." These few of many examples indicate both a wide cultural acknowledgment and the real need for informed sources such as our collaborative Wikipedia efforts at providing specific relevant facts so that people don't overstate. User:Steve block makes a GREAT point about "How do we know it was conceived for book form?" That it was published in book form is obvious, but conceived? REAL good question. You prompted me to hunt down source quotes -- and that is SO beautifully in the spirt of this thing, this Wikipedia! I found this quote from a Mile High Comics interview with Don McGregor at http://www.milehighcomics.com/interviews/donmcgregor.html "Dean originally asked me how I wanted to package SABRE. I told him I wanted to come out in graphic album size, and the format I had in mind was something like Ed April used to do for CARTOONIST SHOWCASE. I wanted a sense of permanence about the book, and that the very look of it said it wasn't just another comic coming out on the stands that much." (Ironically, but with a writerly specificity, he says 38 pages is too short to be a [traditional prose] novel, but that definition would toss out ''A Contract with God'' and any number of other things. Another first-person account comes from Bruce Canwell, in the e-zine Digital Webbing (http://www.digitalwebbing.com/cbem/07.html), who recalls, "In 1978, an envelope arrived in my mailbox bearing Dean's [publisher Dean Mullaney's] Staten Island address. Inside was no letter, no personal communication of any sort . . . [ellipses his] Inside was something better. The envelope contained a one-page advance solicitation. Dean (with his musician brother Jan) had formed a publishing company called "Eclipse Enterprises," [note: not Eclipse Comics] the inaugural release of which was a one-shot titled SABRE, the brainchild of writer Don McGregor and artist Paul Gulacy. Dean was touting SABRE as bigger and better-produced than the standard comic: 8 inches by eleven, black-&-white, 48 pages on heavy stock with a tinted wraparound Gulacy cover." As previously established, Eclipse used the term "graphic album" rather than "comic book" to describe it. McGregor, for his part, refers to it as a "book" ("...the first Graphic Album ever published for the direct sales market, the book..." "SABRE is a book populated with..." http://www.donmcgregor.com/ http://www.donmcgregor.com/sabre.htm Whew! Thank you so much for prompting the additional supportive research! 24.215.163.254 10:56AM EST, June 13, 2005 ==European comics are not per se graphic novels== Graphic novel is a way too loaded term for the longer, more serious European comics imho. Americans may call them that way, but in Europe the are simply comic books.--User:Phlebas 17:15, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC) Well, that's part of the reason why the article was written (before you changed it) to indicate that it was talking about the ''term'' "graphic novel" and how it's used (by Americans, for example), not trying to declare what is and is not a graphic novel. User:Tverbeek 17:33, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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