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 GerMany#REDIRECT Germany GermanY#REDIRECT Germany GermanyThe Federal Republic of Germany is one of G8 industrialization countries, located in the heart of Europe. It is bordered to the north by the North Sea, Denmark, and the Baltic Sea, to the south by Austria and Switzerland, to the west by France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg, and to the east by Poland and the Czech Republic. {| border=1 align=right cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=300 style="margin: 0 0 1em 1em; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; border-collapse: collapse; font-size: 95%;" |+Bundesrepublik Deutschland | align="center" colspan="2"| {| border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing=0 style="background:#f9f9f9; text-align:center;" | width="130px"| || align=center width=130px| |- | width="130px"| (Flag of Germany) | align=center width=130px| (Federal Coat of Arms of Germany) |} |- | align=center colspan=2 | National motto: ''Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit'' (German language: Unity and Justice and Freedom) |- | align=center colspan=2 | List of national anthems: Das Lied der Deutschen 3rd stanza (''Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit'') |- | align=center colspan=2 style="background:#f9f9f9;" | |- |Official language || German language1 |- |Capital || Berlin |- |Largest City || Berlin |- |Chancellor of Germany || Gerhard Schröder |- |President of Germany || Horst Köhler |- |Area - Total - % water |List of countries by area 1 E11 m2 2.416% |- |Population - As of April 2005 est - Population density |List of countries by population 82,468,000 [http://www.destatis.de/indicators/e/vgr910ae.htm] 242/km² |- |Formation Unification/reunification |Treaty of Verdun (843) January 18 1871 May 23 1949 October 3 1990 |- |Gross Domestic Product - Total (2003) - GDP/capita || List of countries by GDP $2.271 trillion $27,600 |- |Currency || Euro (€)2 |- | Time zone - in European Summer Time | Central European Time (Coordinated Universal Time+1) Central European Summer Time (Coordinated Universal Time+2) |- | Top-level domain || .de |- | List_of_country_calling_codes || +49 |- |colspan="2"| 1 Danish language, Low German language, Sorbian language, Romany language and Frisian language are officially recognised and protected as minority languages per the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. 2 Prior to 1999: Deutsche Mark. |} Germany is a democratic federal parliamentary state, made up of 16 federal States of Germany (''Länder''), which in certain spheres act independently of the Federation. The Federal Republic of Germany is a member state of the United Nations, NATO, the G8 nations and a founding member of what is now the European Union. == History == [[Image:Electoral princes.png|thumb|left|The prince-electors of the Holy Roman Empire. From ''Bildatlas der Deutschen Geschichte'' by Dr Paul Knötel (1895)]] While the German language and the feeling of "Germanhood" go back more than a thousand years, the state now known as Germany was unified as a modern nation-state only in 1871, when the German Empire, dominated by the Kingdom of Prussia, was forged. This was the second German ''Reich'', usually translated as "empire", but also meaning "realm". ===Holy Roman Empire (843-1806)=== The medieval empire – known for much of its existence as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation – stemmed from a division of the Franks in 843, which was founded by Charlemagne on 25 December 800, and existed in varying forms until 1806, its territory stretching from the river ''Eider'' in the north to the mediterranean coast in the south. During these almost thousand years, the Germans expanded their influence successfully with the help of the Catholic Church, the Teutonic Order and the Hanseatic League. In 1530, the attempt of the Protestant Reformation of Catholicism turned out to have failed, and a separate Protestant church was acknowledged as new state religion in many states of Germany. This led to inter-German strife, the Thirty Years War (1618) and finally the Peace of Westphalia (1648), that resulted in a drastically enfeebled and politically disunited Germany, unable to resist the stroke of the Napoleonic Wars, during which the ''imperium'' was overrun and dissolved (1806). The lasting effect of the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire came to be the division between Austria, formerly the leading state of Germany, from the more western and northern parts. ===Restoration and revolution (1814-1871)=== Following Napoleon's fall, the Congress of Vienna convened in 1814 in order to restructure Europe. In Germany, the German Confederation was founded, a loose league of List of German Confederation member states. Disagreement with the restoration politics partly led to the lifestyle called ''Biedermeier'' and to intellectual Liberalism in Germany movements, which demanded unity and freedom during the Vormärz epoch each followed by a measure of Klemens Wenzel von Metternich repressing the liberal agitation. The ''Zollverein'', a tariff union, profoundly furthered economic unity in the German states. The states also started to be shaped by the Industrial Revolution, which was the first step of the growing industrialization and contributed to a wave of pennilessness in Europe causing social uprisings. In the light of a Revolutions of 1848, The Revolutions of 1848 in France successfully established a republic, intellectuals and common people started the Revolutions of 1848 in the German states. The monarchs initially yielded to the revolutionaries' liberal demands and an intellectual Frankfurt Parliament was elected to draw up a constitution for the new Germany, completed in 1849. However, the Prussian king Frederick William IV of Prussia, who was offered to become Emperor but lose power, rejected crown and constitution. This prompted violent rollbacks by the monarchs, and the demise of the national assembly along with most merits of the revolution. In 1862, conflict between the Prussian King Wilhelm I of Germany and the increasingly liberal parliament erupted over military reforms. The king appointed Otto von Bismarck the new Prime Minister of Prussia, who used the desire for national unification to further the interests of the Prussian monarchy. He successfully waged Second war of Schleswig, Austro-Prussian War and, finally, Franco-Prussian War. ===German Empire (1871-1918)=== After the French defeat in the Franco-Prussian War, the German Empire (''Kaiserreich'') was proclaimed in Versailles on January 18, 1871. Virtually a result of the wars, the Empire was a unification of the scattered parts of Germany but without Austria—''Kleindeutschland''. Later, List of former German colonies. After 1888, the ''Year of Three Emperors'', Bismarck was forced to quit by the young new Emperor William II of Germany in 1890 due to political and personal differences. The Emperor's foreign policy was opposed to that of Bismarck, who had established a system of alliances in the era called ''Gründerzeit'' securing Germany's position as a great nation and avoiding war for decades. Under Wilhelm II Germany took an imperialism course, New Imperialism, but it led to friction with neighbouring countries. Most alliances in which Germany had been involved were not renewed and new alliances excluded the Reich. Austria and Germany became increasingly isolated. Although not one of Causes of World War I, Assassination in Sarajevo of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria triggered World War I on 28 July 1914, which saw Germany as part of the unsuccessful Central Powers in the World War I casualties conflict of all time against the Allied Powers. In November 1918, the German Revolution broke out (starting with a mutiny at Kiel), and Emperor William II and all German ruling princes abdicated. Armistice with Germany (Compiègne) on November 11 putting an end to the war. Germany was forced to sign the Treaty of Versailles in 1919, whose unexpectedly high demands and humiliating aspects were perceived as a continuation of the war with other means in Germany. ===Weimar Republic (1919-1933)=== [[Image:German Revolution.jpg|thumb|250px|right|The German Revolution of 1918–1919 ended the German Monarchy]] After the German Revolution on November 1918, a Republic was proclaimed. That year, the Communist Party of Germany was established, and on January 1919 the German Workers Party, later known as the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). On August 11, 1919, the Weimar Constitution came into effect. The democracy was made unpopular in part because of the economic hardship due to both the world wide Great Depression and the harsh peace conditions dictated by the Treaty of Versailles. The German voters increasingly supported anti-democratic parties, both right-wing and left-wing. In the two extraordinary elections of 1932, the anti-democratic Nazis got 37.2 per cent and 33.0 per cent. A series of dramatic events marked the end of the Weimar Republic. On 30 January, 1933, President of Germany Paul von Hindenburg appointed Adolf Hitler Chancellor of Germany. On February 27th, the Reichstag fire. Basic rights were abrogated under an emergency decree. An Enabling Act gave Hitler's government full legislative power. A centralised totalitarian state was established, no longer based on the rule of law. ===Third Reich (1933–1945)=== The new regime quickly dissolved all trade unions, made Germany a one-party state, and repressed all opposition. From 1933 onwards, 412 concentration camps were set up for groups and people perceived as threats. Open persecution of Jews began, culminating in Kristallnacht on November 9 1938. In 1934, the Nazi Party was purged of internal opposition during the Night of the Long Knives. In 1935 the Racial policy of Nazi Germany came into force: Jews were deprived of their German citizenship, banned from marrying Germans, and locked out from most of society. In 1936, German troops entered the demilitarised Rhineland, violating the Versailles Treaty, in an attempt to rebuild national self-esteem. Emboldened, Hitler followed from 1938 onwards a policy of expansionism. It started with the Anschluss and the Sudetes region in Czechoslovakia. In 1939, Bohemia and Moravia were annexed and a Slovakian independent state was created. To avoid a two-front war, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was concluded with the Soviet Union. Then Germany launched a Blitzkrieg against Poland, beginning World War II. In 1940, most of Western Europe was occupied, and Germany continued its invasions through 1941, conquering Yugoslavia and Greece, engaging in the Battle of Britain over London, and then breaking the pact with the Soviet Union by opening the Eastern Front. When war was also declared on the United States after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor, Hitler had engaged too many enemies. The Soviet Union started to push Germany back and German cities increasingly became targets of Allied air attacks. On May 8 1945, Germany surrendered after the Red Army had occupied Berlin, where Hitler had committed suicide. Under his leadership, Nazi Germany had systematically murdered six million Jews in the Holocaust and six million more Roma (people), Slavic people, homosexuals, communists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and mentally and otherwise disabled individuals. ===Division and reunification (1945-1990)=== [[Image:Berlin-wall-dancing.jpg|thumb|250px|right|The Berlin Wall that had partitioned Berlin in front of the Brandenburg Gate shortly after the reunification]] The war resulted in Oder-Neisse line and Expulsion of Germans after World War II from Historical Eastern Germany, as well as from Czechia. Germany and Berlin were occupied and partitioned by the Allies, with West Germany and West Berlin being controlled by the Western allies and East Germany and East Berlin by the Soviet Union. When the Soviet Union cut off supplies to West Berlin, Western forces Berlin Airlift. West Germany benefitted from the American Marshall Plan for the reconstruction of Europe after the war and was a founding state of the European Union. Its economy bloomed and democracy was stabilised by successive governments in Bonn. The Soviet-supported East Germany, by contrast, became one of the most repressive of the communist satellite states of the Warsaw Pact. The flight of growing numbers of East Germans to freedom via West Berlin led on August 13, 1961, to East Germany erecting the Berlin Wall and a fortified border to West Germany. Relations between the Federal Republic of Germany and the GDR remained icy until the Western chancellor Willy Brandt launched a highly controversial rapproachment with East Berlin and Moscow (''Ostpolitik'') in the 1970's. During the summer of 1989, following growing unrest, large numbers of East German citizens took refuge in West German embassies in Central Europe and Eastern Europe countries in the hope of emigrating to the West. The East German government's confusion grew and on November 9 1989, East German authorities unexpectedly allowed East German citizens to enter West Berlin and West Germany. Hundreds of thousands of people took advantage of the opportunity; new crossing points were opened in the Berlin Wall and along the border with West Germany. This led to the acceleration of the process of reforms in East Germany that ended with the German reunification of East and West Germany that came into force on October 3 1990. == Politics == ===National government=== Germany is a constitutional federal republic, whose political system is laid out in the 1949 constitution called ''Basic Law of the Federal Republic of Germany'' (Basic Law). It has a parliamentary system in which the head of government, the Chancellor of Germany (Federal Chancellor), is elected by the parliament. Head of state. The function of head of state is performed by the Federal President (President of Germany). He is elected every five years by the Federal Assembly (Bundesversammlung (Germany)), which is made up by the members of the Bundestag plus the corresponding number of Länder (states) representatives. The powers of the Federal President are mostly limited to ceremonial and representative duties, but the signature of the President is required for laws to become effective. [[image:Bundestag.jpg|thumb|200px|The Bundestag, the lower house of German Parliament, in the historic Reichstag (building)]] [[Image:Herrenhaus-berlin.jpg|thumb|200px|left|Prussian House of Lords in Leipziger Straße, seat of the Bundesrat, the upper house of German Parliament]] Parliament. The German legislature consists of the Bundestag (Germany) and the Bundesrat (Germany). The supreme legislative body is the Bundestag (Federal Diet), the lower house of Parliament, which is elected every four years. It in turn elects the Federal Chancellor (Chancellor of Germany). The Bundesrat (Federal Council), the upper house of Parliament, represents the 16 federal states (States of Germany) and cooperates in law-making and administering the federation. Its members are appointed by the individual ''Länder'', or states. Lately, there has been much concern about the Bundestag (Germany) and the Bundesrat (Germany) blocking each other, especially with majorities differing in the two bodies, making effective legislation very difficult. ===Legal system=== Basic_Law_of_the_Federal_Republic_of_Germany,_Germany's_basic_law">Image:Preamble Grundgesetz.jpg|thumb|right|Basic Law of the Federal Republic of Germany, Germany's basic law Germany has a civil law (legal system) based ultimately on Roman law. Legislative power is divided between the Federation and the individual federated states. While criminal law and private law have seen codifications on the national level (in the ''Strafgesetzbuch'' and the ''Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch'' respectively), no such unifying codification exists in administrative law where a lot of the fundamental matters remain in the jurisdiction of the individual federated states. There are a series of specialist supreme courts; for civil and criminal cases the highest court of appeal is the ''Federal Court of Justice of Germany'' (Federal Court of Justice). The courtroom style is Inquisitorial system. The Federal Constitutional Court (''Federal Constitutional Court of Germany''), located in Karlsruhe, is the supreme court responsible for constitutional matters, with power of judicial review. It acts as the highest legal authority and ensures that legislative and judicial practice conforms with the Basic Law of the Federal Republic of Germany. It acts independently of the other state bodies but cannot act on its own behalf. ===Foreign relations=== [[Image:SchröderandChirac.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Chancellor Gerhard Schröder together with France President Jacques Chirac (left)]] Together with France, Germany plays a leading role in the European Union. Germany is at the forefront of European states seeking to advance the creation of a more unified and capable European political, defence and security apparatus. Since its establishment on May 23, 1949, the Federal Republic of Germany kept a notably low profile in international relations. In 1999, however, on the occasion of the Kosovo War, Gerhard Schröder's government broke convention by sending German troops into combat for the first time since World War II. In 2003, Germany and France were protagonists in the coalition of nations opposing the United States-led 2003 invasion of Iraq. Nevertheless, the German government has offered help to the reconstruction efforts in Iraq, but only outside of the war-torn country. In 2004, German troops stationed in the United Arab Emirates trained 122 Iraqi soldiers to drive and maintain military trucks. In April 2005, the German military sent around 50 German soldiers and 19 translators to Abu Dhabi to show 85 Iraqis how to build bridges and streets. Together with Japan, India, and Brazil, Germany is currently seeking a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. ===Armed forces=== [[Image:Eufor handover.jpg|thumb|right|German troops (with red berets in the front row) are part of the EUFOR peace-keeping force in Bosnia and Herzegovina]] Germany's military, the ''Bundeswehr'', is a federal defence force with Army ''Heer'', Navy ''German Navy'', Air Force ''Luftwaffe'', Central Medical Services ''(Zentraler Sanitätsdienst)'' and Joint Service Support Command ''(Streitkräftebasis)'' branches. It employs some 250,000 personnel, 50,000 of whom are 18-30-year-old men on national duty for currently at least 9 months. In peacetime, the Bundeswehr is commanded by the Minister of Defence, currently Peter Struck (since 2002). If Germany is in a state of defence, the Federal Chancellor becomes commander in chief of the Bundeswehr. The military budget has not kept up with the Bundeswehr's mission, which has changed dramatically from protecting Germany's borders against a Soviet Union invasion into a mobile unit deployed around the world. The funding levels for the Bundeswehr have actually been falling since 1990, when military spending amounted to about 3.5 per cent of gross domestic product. Today, defence spending equals about 1.6 per cent of German GDP, compared to the NATO average of 2.1 per cent and the United States' 3 per cent. Critics argue that the current budget of €24.4 billion is too small to finance the necessary transformation of the Bundeswehr into a well-equipped force ready for NATO and United Nations led missions abroad. Currently, the German military has about 1,180 troops stationed in Bosnia-Herzegovina; 2,650 Bundeswehr soldiers are serving in Kosovo; 3,900 Bundeswehr troops are assisting the United States anti-terrorism operation called Operation Enduring Freedom off the Horn of Africa. In Afghanistan, 2,100 German troops currently make up the largest contingent of the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force force. ==Geography== ===States=== Germany is divided into sixteen State (national)s (in German called ''Bundesländer'', singular ''States of Germany''). It is further subdivided into 439 districts (''List of German districts'') and cities (''kreisfreie Städte'') (2004). {| border style="border-collapse:collapse" !colspan=2|English language !colspan=2|German language |- !States of Germany !! Capital !! State !! Capital |- |1 Baden-Württemberg||Stuttgart||Baden-Württemberg||Stuttgart |- |2 Bavaria||Munich||(Freistaat) Bayern||München |- |3 Berlin||Berlin||Berlin||Berlin |- |4 Brandenburg||Potsdam||Brandenburg||Potsdam |- |5 Bremen (state)||Bremen||(Freie Hansestadt) Bremen||Bremen |- |6 Hamburg||Hamburg||(Freie und Hansestadt) Hamburg||Hamburg |- |7 Hesse||Wiesbaden||Hessen||Wiesbaden |- |8 Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania||Schwerin||Mecklenburg-Vorpommern||Schwerin |- |9 Lower Saxony||Hanover||Niedersachsen||Hannover |- |10 North Rhine-Westphalia||Düsseldorf||Nordrhein-Westfalen||Düsseldorf |- |11 Rhineland-Palatinate||Mainz||Rheinland-Pfalz||Mainz |- |12 Saarland||Saarbrücken||Saarland||Saarbrücken |- |13 Saxony||Dresden||(Freistaat) Sachsen||Dresden |- |14 Saxony-Anhalt||Magdeburg||Sachsen-Anhalt||Magdeburg |- |15 Schleswig-Holstein||Kiel||Schleswig-Holstein||Kiel |- |16 Thuringia||Erfurt||(Freistaat) Thüringen||Erfurt |} ===Territory=== Since German reunification of the two parts of the country Germany has resumed its role as a major centre between Scandinavia in the north and the Mediterranean Sea region in the south, as well as between the Atlantic Ocean west and the countries of Central Europe and Eastern Europe Europe. The territory of Germany stretches from the high mountains of the Alps (highest point: the Zugspitze at 2,962 m) in the south to the shores of the North Sea in the north-west and the Baltic Sea in the north-east. In between are found the forested uplands of central Germany and the low-lying lands of northern Germany (lowest point: Neuendorfer/Wilstermarsch at 3.54 meters below sea level), traversed by some of Europe's major rivers such as the Rhine, Danube and Elbe. Thanks to its central situation Germany has more neighbours than any other European country; these are Denmark in the north, Poland and the Czech Republic in the east, Austria and Switzerland in the south, France and Luxembourg in the south-west and Belgium and the Netherlands in the north-west. ===Climate=== The greater part of Germany lies in the cool/temperate climatic zone in which humid westerly winds predominate. In the ''north-west'' and the ''north'' the climate is extremely oceanic and rain falls all the year round. Winters there are relatively mild and summers comparatively cool. In the ''east'' the climate shows clear continental features; winters can be very cold for long periods, and summers can become very warm. Here, too, long dry periods are often recorded. In the ''centre'' and the ''south'' there is a transitional climate which may be predominantly oceanic or continental, according to the general weather situation. == Economy == euro_coins_featuring_the_Brandenburg_Gate,_symbol_of_division_and_reunification">image:50ec_ger.png|thumb|right|150px|A euro coins featuring the Brandenburg Gate, symbol of division and reunification Germany is the world's third largest economy measured by gross domestic product, placed behind the United States and Japan. According to the World Trade Organisation, Germany is also the world's top exporter, ahead of the United States and China. Its major trading partners include France, the United States, the United Kingdom, Italy and the Netherlands. A major issue of concern remains the persistently high unemployment rate, especially in the eastern States of Germany, and weak domestic demand which slows down economic growth. However, according to Bert Rürup, head of Germany's Council of Economic Advisers, German Reunification is to blame for two-thirds of Germany's growth lag compared to its European Union neighbours. In particular, until today eastern Germany lacks a solid base of small and medium-sized companies, which provided the foundation for West Germany's economic prosperity. ===Agriculture=== For many years now agriculture in Germany has been in a state of decline. Poor earnings and lack of profitability are counted to the main reasons for the failure of many medium and small concerns. The main crops grown are potatoes, wheat, barley, sugar beet and cabbage. Germany ranks among the world's largest producers of milk, milk products and meat. ===Industrial sector=== As in most other large economic nations, Germany's industrial sector has declined in favour of the service sector. Germany is among the world's largest and most technologically advanced producers of iron, steel, cement, chemicals, machinery, motor vehicles, machine tools and electronics, as well as a world leader in the shipbuilding industry. Major automakers like DaimlerChrysler and Volkswagen, and huge international corporations like Siemens AG rank among the world's largest firms. ===Service sector=== The service sector has grown steadily in recent years and now contributes the largest share of GDP. This sector includes tourism. As of 2004, the largest numbers of foreign visitors to Germany came from the Netherlands, followed by the United States and the United Kingdom.[http://www.destatis.de/basis/e/tour/tourtab4.htm] ===Natural resources=== Germany is lacking in natural raw materials, if one disregards the hard coal deposits in the Ruhr Area, in the Aachen district and in the Saarland, where mining is profitable only thanks to state subsidies. Brown coal from mines in the Leipziger Bucht and the Niederlausitz is still the major energy source in the eastern States of Germany, while mineral oil enjoys this position in the western Länder. The current Red-Green Alliance coalition government is pursuing a long-term strategy of phasing out nuclear energy in favour of renewable energy sources of energy. ==Society== ===Demographics=== [[Image:Hamburg old.jpg|thumb|300px|right|Hamburg is Germany's second largest city (the photograph shows central Hamburg before the first world war)]] Germany has many large cities but only three with a population of one million or more: Berlin with 3.4 million, Hamburg with 1.8 million, and Munich with 1.4 million. Thus, the population is much less centralised and oriented towards a single large city than in most other European countries. The largest cities apart from those are Cologne ''(Köln)'', Frankfurt am Main, Stuttgart, Dortmund, Essen, Germany, Düsseldorf, Bremen, Duisburg and Hanover ''(Hannover)''. By far the largest urban conurbation is the Rhine-Ruhr region, including the Düsseldorf-Cologne district. As of 2004, about 6.7 million non-citizen residents were living in Germany. By far the largest number came from Turkey, followed by Italy, Greece, Croatia, the Netherlands, Serbia and Montenegro, Spain, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Austria, Portugal, Vietnam, Morocco, Poland, Macedonia, Lebanon and France. [http://www.destatis.de/basis/e/bevoe/bevoetab10.htm] About 2/3 of these have been in the country for 8 years or more, and are therefore eligible for naturalization.[http://www.destatis.de/basis/e/bevoe/bevoetab8.htm] Germany is still a primary destination for political and economic refugees from many developing country, but the number of asylum seekers has been dropping in recent years, reaching about 50,000 in 2003. An ethnic Danish minority of about 50,000 people lives in Schleswig, mostly close to the Danish border, in the north; a small number of Slavs people known as the Sorbs lives in the states of Saxony (about 40,000) and Brandenburg (about 20,000). The Frisian language is mother tongue to about 12,000 speakers in Germany. In rural areas of Northern Germany, Low Saxon is widely spoken. There are also a large number of ethnic German immigrants from the former Soviet Union area (1.7 million), Poland (0.7 million) and Romania (0.3 million) (1980–1999 totals), who are automatically granted German citizenship, and thus do not show up in foreign resident statistics; unlike foreigners, they have been settled by the government almost evenly spread throughout Germany. ===Religion=== [[Image:Luther46c.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Martin Luther, Father of the German Reformation and reformer of the German language, 1529]] Germany is the home of the Protestant Reformation launched by Martin Luther in the early 16th century. Today, Protestantism (particularly in the north and east) comprise about 33% of the population and Catholicism (particularly in the south and west) also 33%. In total more than 55 million people officially belong to a Christian denomination. Most German Protestants are members of the Evangelical Church in Germany. Free churches exist in all larger towns and many smaller ones, but most such churches are small. The current pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Benedict XVI, is German. Besides this there are several hundred thousand Orthodox Church (mostly Greece and Serbia), 400,000 New Apostolic Church, 150,000 Jehovah's Witnesses, and numerous other small groups. Islam in Germany (mostly of Turkey descent) live in Germany. Germany now has Europe's third-largest Jew population. in 2004, twice as many Jews from former Soviet Union republics settled in Germany as in Israel, bringing the total influx to more than 200,000 since 1991. About half joined a settled Jewish community, of which there are now more than 100, with a total of 100,000 members—up from 30,000 before unification. Some German cities have seen a revival of Jewish culture, particularly in Berlin, where 3,000 Israelis also live. Jews have a voice in German public life through the Zentralrat der Juden in Deutschland. In the territory of the former East Germany, there is much less religious feeling—probably the result of forty years of Communism—than in the West. Only 5% attend a mass at least once per week, compared with 14% in the West according to a recent [http://www.umich.edu/~newsinfo/Releases/1997/Dec97/r121097a.html study]. About 30% of the total population are officially religiously unaffiliated. In the East this number is also considerably higher. Church and state are separate, but there is cooperation in many fields, most importantly in the social sector. Churches and religious community, if they are both large, stable and loyal to the constitution, can get special status from the state as a "corporation under public law" which allows the churches to levy taxes called ''Kirchensteuer'' (church tax) on their members. This revenue is collected by the state in return for a collection fee. See Status of religious freedom in Germany. ===Education=== Germany has one of the world's highest levels of education. The most important foreign languages taught at school are English language, Latin, French language, Russian language, Greek language, and Spanish language. Since the end of World War II, the number of youths entering university has more than tripled, but university attendance still lags behind many other European nations. In the annual league of top-ranking universities compiled by Shanghai Jiaotong University in 2004, Germany came 4th overall, but with only 7 universities in the top 100 (to compare, the United States had 51). The highest ranking university, at #45, was the Technical University of Munich. For Germany, the results of the PISA (student assessment) were some kind of nationwide shock. The comparatively low scores brought on heated debate about how the school system should be changed. Furthermore it was revealed that more than in other countries students with higher-earning parents are better-educated and tend to achieve higher results. There is also some diversity between the schools of the various states, that determine their respective school system independently. In addition to academic education, Germany also has a elaborate system of vocational education, called the ''dual system'', which combines apprenticeship in enterprises with theoretical teaching in vocational schools. Germany prohibits home-schooling, however, this is still practised by a number of people; there has been some publicity to government prosecution of this practice. === Social issues === [[Image:KreuzbergStreet.jpg|320px|thumb|right|The borough of Kreuzberg in Berlin is sometimes called the "largest Turkish city outside of Turkey"]] The German social market economy (German language: ''soziale Marktwirtschaft'') helped bring about the "economic miracle" that rebuilt Germany from ashes after World War II to one of the most impressive economies in Europe. Still, Germany continues to struggle with a number of social issues. Issues created by the German Reunification of 1990 have begun to narrow. While the standard of living is higher in the western half of the country, easterners now share a reasonably high standard of living. Germans continue to be concerned about a relatively high level of unemployment; however, they are generally unwilling to concede to labour concessions such as longer working hours. Since World War II, Germany has experienced intermittent turmoil from various extremist groups. In the 1970s the terrorist Red Army Faction engaged in a string of assassinations and kidnappings against political and business figures. Recently there has been a surge in right-wing extremist crimes. According to Interior Minister Otto Schily, the number of these crimes rose 8.4% to 12,553 cases in 2004, which the minister attributed to such crimes as the display of illegal Nazism symbols. In September 2004, the right-wing extremist National Democratic Party of Germany gained a new place on the national political stage when they captured 9.2% of the vote in the eastern state of Saxony. That compared with 1.9% in 1999. The current German government considers this party to be a threat to the country and has sought repeatedly to ban the party or curtail its activities. Immigrants in Germany face undue police inquiries (such as repeat targeted requests for identification), violence from right-wing extremist groups, higher rates of delinquency and more general integration problems. Some German states have banned Muslim teachers from wearing headscarves in class. ===Culture=== Germany's contributions to the world's cultural heritage are numerous, and the country is often known as ''das Land der Dichter und Denker'' (the land of poets and thinkers). German literature can be traced back to the Middle Ages, in particular to such authors as Walter von der Vogelweide and Wolfram von Eschenbach. The Nibelungenlied, whose author is not known, is also a major contribution to German literature. Theologian Martin Luther, who translated the Bible into German, is widely credited for having set the basis for modern "High German" language. The mostly admired German poets and authors are without doubt Johann Wolfgang von Goethe and Friedrich Schiller, as well as Heinrich Heine and, in the 20th century, Nobel prize winners Bertold Brecht and Günter Grass. Other authors include Hermann Hesse, Thomas Mann, Heinrich Böll and Hans Magnus Enzensberger. Germany's influence on world philosophy was major as well, as exemplified by Gottfried Leibniz, Immanuel Kant, Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Arthur Schopenhauer, Friedrich Nietzsche and Martin Heidegger. In the field of music, Germany's influence is noted through the works of Johann Sebastian Bach, Ludwig van Beethoven, Johannes Brahms, Robert Schumann, Carl Orff and Richard Wagner. In the arts, there are several fine German painters such as the Renaissance artist Albrecht Dürer, the romanticist Caspar David Friedrich, the Surrealism Max Ernst, the Expressionism Franz Marc, the Conceptualism artist Joseph Beuys or the neo expressionist Georg Baselitz. Architecture also flourished in Germany. Several UNESCO World Heritage Sites are scattered throughout Germany (including, for instance, the cathedral of Cologne and the Museum Island in Berlin). Famous architects include neoclassicism Karl Friedrich Schinkel and Walter Gropius, the founder of the Bauhaus. Germany was also the homeland of scientists like Hermann von Helmholtz, Joseph von Fraunhofer, Gabriel Daniel Fahrenheit, Johannes Kepler, Ernst Haeckel, Alexander von Humboldt, Albert Einstein, Max Born, Max Planck, Werner Heisenberg, Hans Gerhard Creutzfeldt, Heinrich Rudolf Hertz, Robert Koch, Otto Hahn, Gottfried Leibniz, Justus von Liebig and Robert Bunsen; and inventors and engineers such as Johann Gutenberg, Nikolaus August Otto, Werner von Siemens, Wernher von Braun, Gottlieb Daimler, Carl Benz and Rudolf Diesel. Important mathematicians were born in Germany such as Friedrich Bessel, Leonhard Euler, Carl Friedrich Gauss, David Hilbert, Carl Gustav Jakob Jacobi, Bernhard Riemann and Karl Weierstrass. Many historical figures, though not citizens of Germany in the modern sense, were important and influential figures in German culture, such as Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Franz Kafka and Stefan Zweig. The German language was once the lingua franca of central, eastern and northern Europe, and in Europe it is the second most popular language after English. Within the European Union, German is the most spoken language before English, French, Spanish and Italian. As a foreign language, German is the third most taught worldwide. [http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/www/en/aussenpolitik/kulturpolitik/sprache/deutsch_html]. It is also the second most used language on the Internet. The language has its origin in Old High German. Germany had two languages: High German and Low German, which—from a linguistic standpoint—were two different languages. Whilst High German was subject to the so-called High German consonant shift, Low German was not. Today's standard language is based on High German rather than Low German; the latter has been given the status of a minority language by the European Union, although it is less used today in the traditionally Low German-speaking areas of northern Germany. Since about 1970 Germany has once again had a thriving popular culture, now increasingly being led by its new old capital Berlin, and a self-confident music and art culture. Germany is also well known for its many opera houses, the most famous of which being located in Bayreuth. == Miscellaneous topics == *List of Germans *List of German towns *List of German districts *List of universities in Germany *GermNews *Historical Eastern Germany *Communications in Germany *Transportation in Germany *Tourism in Germany *Tax in Germany *List of Germans *List of English exonyms for German toponyms *Nazi architecture == References == *References and bibliography can be found in the more detailed articles linked to in this article. == External links == *[http://www.facts-about-germany.de Facts about Germany] — Official site published by the German Federal Foreign Office *[http://www.deutschland.de/home.php?lang=2 Deutschland.de] — Official German portal *[http://www.campus-germany.de campus-germany.de] — Study and Research in Germany (multilingual) *[http://www.dw-world.de Deutsche Welle] Germany's international broadcaster, 30 language website *[http://www.earth-photography.com/Countries/Germany Pictures of Germany] From the countryside to large cities *[http://www.destatis.de/e_home.htm Destatis.de] — Federal Statistical Office Germany (in English) *[http://www.statistikportal.de/ Statistikportal.de] — More official statistical data *[http://www.bundesregierung.de/en Bundesregierung Deutschland] — Official site of the German Federal Government *[http://www.bundespraesident.de/en Bundespräsident] — Official site of the German Federal President *[http://www.smart-travel-germany.com/ smart-travel-germany.com] — Guidance and advice to prepare your travel to Germany *[http://www.sacred-destinations.com/germany/index.htm Sacred Destinations: Germany] — Information on Germany's religious sites Germany Republics European Union member states os:Герман ang:Þéodiscland roa-rup:Ghirmânii bs:Njemačka cv:Германи als:Deutschland fa:آلمان fo:Týskland ga:An Ghearmáin gd:A' Ghearmailt hi:जर्मनी ka:გერმანია kw:Almayn la:Germania lv:Vācija li:Duutsland mi:Tiamana ms:Jerman zh-min-nan:Tek-kok nah:Alemantlan na:Germany nds:Düütschland rm:Germania se:Duiska scn:Girmania simple:Germany ta:ஜெர்மனி th:ประเทศเยอรมนี vi:Đức yi:דײַטשלאַנד Germany*/archive1 */archive2 */archive3 */archive4 ---- ==Getting down to issues== All this mass reverting etc is getting boring, and the personal insults are childish. There is too much aggression here, and it is not helping clear thinking. What irritates me mostly is that it all seems to be about style. One person likes his wordings, the other his. (Or is it really a NPOV question whether the word "including" is used in the first paragraph?) Or again, one person wants much more data in the history section, the other wants it shorter. I agree with shorter, but that's a matter of taste. The point is, this is NOT a biased article, and as far as I can see, neither Heimdal's nor Gidonb's changes make it one. But maybe I am wrong. If so, could someone please list SOBERLY AND NEUTRALLY and above all BRIEFLY what the issues are where you think political bias is motivating the two sides of the argument. Then we can talk about the issues. --User:Doric Loon 19:26, 8 May 2005 (UTC) :But that's the whole point: Heimdal shows no interest whatsoever in discussing anything at all. I think there may be moderate POV issues, but nothing major, or especially tag-meritting. Rather, they are mainly stylistic: Heimdal wants an (over-)long history section, and a 50K article; and wants his wording, which is a) generally mildly worse than what we started with, in my judgement, and b) is not subject to discussion. As to "personal insults", I don't see that we've seen much in the way of that, aside from some unhelpful edit summaries that might themselves have been better taken to talk (and ideally, put differently). I think this is going to be extremely difficult and time-consuming to resolve: nothing short of arbcom has any "teeth", and I doubt they'll take action without at least a prior RfC -- if not more, and if they'd be agreeable to looking at it at all. I'm not going to try to start the whole dispute resolution process right now as I anticipate it'll take ''weeks'', and I'll be away and offline much of next week. But if there's no progress by the time I get back from Germany(!), then I can see nothing for it but to start said RfC, unless there's been some sudden, marvellous, unexpected resolution. User:Alai 20:21, 8 May 2005 (UTC) ::Sigh, and I was getting on a roll the other day too! Unfortunately, my connection is too slow right now to see what changes were made prior to protection. The loss of trust on this page is incredibly sad: rather than discuss possible bias, the first course of action is reverting. And now the page is locked again. I hope people cool down and calmer, more productive edits will come soon. If not, I'm in with Alai...this needs to be brought under more serious review. User:Infamouskitty 21:12, 9 May 2005 (UTC) I object to unprotecting this page, since Heimdal threatens to reintroduce his biased version again. gidonb">User:Gidonb 18:03, 12 May 2005 (UTC) Gidonb, please explain your objection. Sorry, but unless you don't explain reasonably why, in your view, the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Germany&oldid=13395561 previous version] was "extremely biased", there is no reason for keeping this page protected any further. - User:Heimdal 10:18, 13 May 2005 (UTC) :I feel that removing protection is pointless. We have reached no consensus. If protection is removed Heimdal will revert the page, someone else will re-revert it, and it'll just end up getting protected again in 24 hours. I am aware that reaching a consensus will probably not alleviate the situation regarding the revert war, but it will at least establish the will of the collective which will serve as evidence for when the whole thing is ultimately sent for arbitration. User:ChristopherCaufield 22:51, 13 May 2005 (UTC) Does anyone else agree with Gidonb's view that the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Germany&oldid=13395561 previous version] of the page was "extremily biased"? If not, I think that we should regard Gidonb's view as a minority opinion, and move on. - User:Heimdal 15:09, 13 May 2005 (UTC) :So, you'd rather go back to an overly long article that's not well written to begin with? As far as my opinion of alleged bias goes...well, I would like to see most of the details you all are arguing about be excised in the interest of brevity. Take advantage of what this project has to offer! You want more details, click on the wikilink! The scope of the Holocaust and its intention dictate either 1) you discuss all of its victims or 2) you write a short sentence about the tremendous destruction during and incredible impact after, leaving all the details to the Holocaust article proper. And, because the History section is this morass of bloat, I favor the latter option as it would start to bring the whole article back into balance. User:Infamouskitty 22:16, 13 May 2005 (UTC) I'm still waiting for Gidonb to give some reasonable explanations as to why, in his view, the previous version was "extremely biased". If he isn't able to explain his point, I think we should indeed go back to the previous version. Infamouskitty, the article is long, but certainly not overly long? In fact, the United States page is much longer. NB I shall be absent from here over the Whitsun holiday. I'll be back on Tuesday. - User:Heimdal 13:40, 14 May 2005 (UTC) :I'm not going to weigh in right now on whether I think the article as a whole is too long...honestly, I have not been able to process that far along considering how long and unbalancing the History section is. I do like the variety of other sections presented and think that each individual section is probably long enough considering this whole business is a general gateway to the entity that is Germany. User:Infamouskitty 03:48, 15 May 2005 (UTC) I have spent one week here now, trying to defend myself against Gidonb's allegations that the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Germany&oldid=13395561 version] which I have been editing for weeks was "extremely biased". In all this week I have not seen one single effort by Gidonb to discuss his allegations with me. I give Gidonb two more days to make his point here. If by Tuesday he has failed to do so, I'll ask an administrator to unprotect the article, and revert Gidonb's edits. If Gidonb tries to revert back, I'll ask for protection of *my* version this time. - User:Heimdal 15:42, 14 May 2005 (UTC) Also, I'm considering to start an arbitration procedure against User:Gidonb for intentionally vandalising the Germany page. Because if you put all his edits together - the indiscriminate deletions, the removal of images, the non-sensical changes to the structure of the article, etc - they do de facto amount to an act of vandalism. - User:Heimdal 19:02, 14 May 2005 (UTC) :Gidonb. I give you time until tomorrow to begin a constructive discussion with me over your allegations that the Germany article, which I've been editing for weeks, was "extremely biased", and about all the deletions that you've made. Here is the link to the incriminated version: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Germany&oldid=13403771] :If you refuse to discuss, I will ask an administrator tomorrow to unprotect the page, and I will revert your edits. You are free to express your objections here. But if you try to revert me once again, I will ask for protection of *my* edits this time. I'm also ready to drag you in front of the arbitration committee if necessary, and charge you (a) with wilfully vandalising the Germany page (I intend to prove it!); (b) with badmouthing me on this talk page without good reason; and (c) with refusing to discuss your allegations with me. - User:Heimdal 11:24, 16 May 2005 (UTC) ==This article has been vandalized for months by anti-German POV pushers== I believe the Zionist needs to be banned from editing this page. Or what do you say, Gustav and Heimdal? Should we go to the Israel article and make it primarily an article about the Jewish ethnic cleansing, occupation and genocide of the Palestinians? Perhaps the United States should mostly deal with the genocide on native Americans, Africans and Abu Ghraib, preferably with a lot of the well-known pictures from the camp? [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Germany&diff=next&oldid=13661770 anonymous comment by] User:83.109.147.244 This is just silly (I just came here for wondering about the protection notice). Nobody can say WP is trying to hush up the holocaust. We have Nazi Germany, Holocaust, why, we have :Category:Holocaust, containing six subcategories, and more than 100 individual articles. This, however is the article on Germany, the present-day state and its history. The Nazis dominated, what, 12 years of the 1200 years treated in the history section. that's 1%. already, the "Third Reich" section takes up about 20% of the history section, which is arguably pov, but obviously, it's not about any old 1% of German history, but a very decisive 1%, plus it's relatively recent history, so I'd say its fine to blow it out of (strictly temporal) proportion by a factor 10 or 20. And of course the Third Reich section should mention the holocaust. And guess what - ''that's it''. The rest of the article should be allowed to treat lots of unrelated things in peace. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 11:25, 14 May 2005 (UTC) Dbachmann, the issue is not whether the article should mention the Holocaust. Of course it should. What angers me is that User:Gidonb has deleted half the page and removed every image that stood in his way before the article was protected. I think that Gidonb's deletions are totally unjustified, and I'm still waiting for Gidonb to explain his point. - User:Heimdal 13:56, 14 May 2005 (UTC) I don't see the Holocaust against the Palestinians mentioned in the Israel article! User:83.109.156.2 I don't edit the Israel article. I leave it to the crowd over there to decide what should be mentioned in the Israel article and what not. This article is about Germany. Nobody in his or her right mind can deny that the Holocaust happened. It is therefore right to mention it here, for the sake of honesty and of historical accuracy. - User:Heimdal 10:53, 16 May 2005 (UTC) ==unprotection== I see -- I didn't follow the discussion, and was distracted by the anonymous holocaust rant. Now correct me, but the article seems to have been protected by an admin involved in editing disputes here, and he seems to have reverted before protecting. I consider this rather bad form, admins involved in disputes should ask for protection on RfP like everyone else. I think I can take it upon myself to unprotect the article. Of course, if the edit war continues, it will have to be protected again, ''blindly'', i.e. all parties have an interest to reach some sort of compromise rather than keeping reverting. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 15:48, 16 May 2005 (UTC) ==I propose an immediate change of the structure== Why is the subject ''religion'' a subsection of the section culture? I also disagree with the subject of ''military'' as a subsection of ''politics''. Both ''religion'' and ''military'' deserve their own sections. I propose an immediate change of the structure. ''Foreign relations'' can be a subsection of ''politics'' User:Andries 16:10, 16 May 2005 (UTC) Andries, I regard Gidonb's edits as wilful vandalism, would you agree? Anyway, the page has been unprotected right now, and I have reverted Gidonb's edits. Gidonb is asked to discuss his objections with me on this talk page. - User:Heimdal 17:09, 16 May 2005 (UTC) :I have not studied all of Gidonb's edits but I strongly disagree with the structure that he introduced. User:Andries 17:19, 16 May 2005 (UTC) Gidonb's edits were for the most part deletions, as you had rightly observed yourself. I ask you to help improve the Germany page, Andries. (But without calling the deletion squad, please). - User:Heimdal 17:23, 16 May 2005 (UTC) :The following sentence in italics has to be attributed, removed or clarified: :: Germans continue to be concerned about a relatively high level of unemployment; however, they are generally unwilling to conceed to labour concessions such as longer working hours. :::''Immigrants are often viewed as contributing to the problem.'':Who views the immigrants as contributing to what problem? User:Andries 17:26, 16 May 2005 (UTC) I think you are quoting from the "Social issues" section, right? That section was added to the article some weeks ago by User:Reboot, who also wrote the main article Social issues in Germany. The only thing I contributed to the section was the image of Kreuzberg, actually. I don't agree with everything that Reboot wrote. But I left it stay anyway, because of the effort he/she had made. Reboot told me that he/she was an American who had lived for some time in Germany. - User:Heimdal 17:37, 16 May 2005 (UTC) :We should re-write the sentence in italics immediately with something like (I dunno whether this true) "Unemployment rates are higher among first generation emigrants from Turkey" User:Andries 17:49, 16 May 2005 (UTC) :Also should we make a short mentioning of the Rote Armee Fraktion in the history section? User:Andries 17:49, 16 May 2005 (UTC) :Add Bundesverfassungsschutz? User:Andries 17:49, 16 May 2005 (UTC) ==mass reverts== seeing that the reverting has started already, let me say that I recommend that Heimdal splits his edits into several parts, arguing each point separately, rather than just reverting to an old version. That way, his opponents in turn will have to argue each point separately. It is necessary to discuss things here on talk. Just reverting or calling vandalism is not acceptable. You need to carve out a compromise, but before you can do that, you need to establish what ''exaclty'' are the disputed points. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 17:44, 16 May 2005 (UTC) I agree. I believe Heimdal's umpteenth mass-reverting of our edits is against the rules at en.wikipedia and against your recommendation. I also find it very unpleasant to discuss matters with him beacuse of his rude language. I would like more people to be involved in this process. gidonb">User:Gidonb 17:51, 16 May 2005 (UTC) Actually, I've asked User:DBachmann to unprotect, because you have not even cared to discuss your allegations with me, Gidonb. Anyway. Can we discuss now without you reverting the page once again? - User:Heimdal 17:55, 16 May 2005 (UTC) Seems to me you started mass-reverting the page. Also the fact that Dbachmann unprotected the page at your request does not mean you can mass revert it. According to his recommendations, I would say the opposite is true. gidonb">User:Gidonb 17:58, 16 May 2005 (UTC) :Gidonb, I consider your mass revert worse than Heimdal's mass revert because of the strange structure in your version. User:Andries 18:00, 16 May 2005 (UTC) This mass-reverting is unacceptable. I have protected the page. User:Mackensen User_talk:Mackensen 18:02, 16 May 2005 (UTC) OK, I will start an arbitration procedure against User:Gidonb for wilfully vandalising the Germany page. See you there Gidonb. - User:Heimdal 18:07, 16 May 2005 (UTC) :Don't do that Heimdal. Gidonb does not vandalize this article though I think that his version has serious shortcomings that should be discussed one by one. Please be patient. User:Andries 18:14, 16 May 2005 (UTC) :I am not impressed by your threats, mass reverts and rude language. All improvements to this page - by me and others - were explained in the edit summaries, other than your mass destroying of our creative work. Also, your mass reversions of this page are not a new problem to en.wikipedia. Today it was me, and every time with another. There are pages and pages with complaints about your vandalizing conduct, repetitive facts and flushing this page with information while deluting the holocaust and deleting other genocides. I believe few will overlook them. gidonb">User:Gidonb 18:19, 16 May 2005 (UTC) I don't see how deleting half the page, removing images, and giving the article a structure which does not make sense to anyone should be an "improvement", Gidonb. I have enough evidence to prove that your edits were not made with goodwill. - User:Heimdal 18:30, 16 May 2005 (UTC) And what is more, Gidonb. Not one word in the Third Reich section was written by me. That's still the version by User:Luis rib, actually. I didn't delete anything there. Your accusations are totally absurd. - User:Heimdal 18:34, 16 May 2005 (UTC) You deleted the genocides against Roma and Slavs many times times, in the past and today twice. gidonb">User:Gidonb 18:57, 16 May 2005 (UTC) Wrong. I've never deleted anything regarding the Holocaust. Why should I? I'm not the kind of person you're trying to make of me. Do you think that because I'm German, I'm a Nazi? No, I'm German, but I'm not a Nazi. It may surprise you, Gidonb, but I didn't revert the page because of your edits to the Holocaust. I reverted the page because you have deleted far too many things, which had nothing to do with History, and which would have been too tiresome for me to restore them all. - User:Heimdal 19:07, 16 May 2005 (UTC) So not wrong, but right. You did delete these genocides many times and for that matter bias the Germany page time and again. Also, I demand that you apologize for numerous times associating me with this ridiculous allegation. I never accused you or anyone for that matter of being a Nazi. This is a totally disgusting accusation. gidonb">User:Gidonb 19:38, 16 May 2005 (UTC) can you please stop bickering about the various holocausts on this page? Your main concern should be to get some sort of compromise so that we can unprotect this page for everybody else to edit. This is a long article about a notable state, and it should not be protected longer than absolutely necessary. So please agree not to touch the holocaust stuff without prior discussion ''here'', if necessary doing a poll about it. Just propose variant wordings of the section ''here'', so everybody can vote about it. If necessary, create variant subpages. sheesh, assume some good faith, both of you, and some confidence that the fate of the Germany article lies not in your hands exclusively. You are not the only editors on Wikipedia you know. Gidonb, you should understand that Heimdal is frustrated because the page was protected in his face, twice. Also, as you are a "long-time contributor", you know very well that Heimdal's edits are not considered "vandalism", so please don't call them that, you'll only annoy him more. Heimdal, you should understand that you cannot just summarily revert, but have to argue your points individually. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 06:17, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :how about the following? : Under his leader leadership Germany started the T-4 Euthanasia Program in 1939 that secretly killed mentally disabled individuals without consent of their family. Nazi-Germany from 1941 to 1945 industrially murdered six million Jews plus additional groups like the Roma in the Holocaust. They also persecuted homosexuals, and communists. Thousands of Soviet POWs died through deliberate neglect and murder.:Note that Gidonb's version (that is the current version of the article) contains a factual accuracy mistake i.e. his version states that mentally disabled individuals were killed between 1941-1945 which is not true. See :de:Aktion_T4 The program started already in 1939 and stopped earlier. Admins please give this protected article a factual accuracy warning or unprotect it so it can be improved. :User:Andries 07:49, 17 May 2005 (UTC) (amended after reading Gidonb's commentary) Dbachmann, I agree with you absolutely. If it's all about the right wording of the Holocaust part (an issue of particular concern for Gidonb), I'm ready to discuss it here on this talk page. What I'm *not* ready to accept, however, are the indiscriminate deletions that Gidonb has made in virtually every section of the article, the removal of images, the ridiculous structure that Gidonb has imposed upon this article (Religion a subsection of Culture, which in turn is a subsection of Population, and other such nonsense) - not to mention his totally absurd accusation that the article was "extremely biased". I'm still ready to put this case to the arbitration committee if necessary. - User:Heimdal 08:58, 17 May 2005 (UTC) Andries, the six million murdered in the holocaust do not include the other populations, BUT RATHER these are assessed at an additional 6 million, precisely as it says on the Germany page. gidonb">User:Gidonb 12:01, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :okay, you are right, amended. User:Andries 13:23, 17 May 2005 (UTC) Sure, ok look: Heimdal, will you agree to make individual edits, one for each section/point you think was deleted without justification? And gidonb, will you agree to address these edits one by one, giving a reason for each one if you revert them? If you agree on this, the edit war will be contained to the "third Reich" section, which on this article is after all only a short historical summary. Will you also agree to ''not edit'' the Third Reich subsection directly (I am talking to gidonb and Heimdal)? Either let other editors follow up on your suggestions (your edits only have a chance of surviving if they get some consensus anyway), or until you can agree on a compromise version? In that case I think we could unprotect. Switching to and fro between antagonistic versions is totally unproductive, you need to find common ground step by step. Concerning the holocaust, just copy information from the specialized articles: These have been fought over in detail, and there is no point in repeating the same disputes here. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 13:11, 17 May 2005 (UTC) from Holocaust: * 5 – 6 million Jews, including 3.0 – 3.5 million Polish Jews [http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/about_holocaust/faqs/answers/faq_3.html] * 2.5 – 3.5 million Gentile Poles * 200,000 – 800,000 Roma & Sinti * 200,000 – 300,000 people with disabilities * 10,000 – 25,000 gay men * 2,000 Jehovah's Witnesses so could we say, based on this, :Nazi-Germany between 1939 to 1945 murdered about 10 million people, including 5 – 6 million Jews, and another estimated 3 – 4 million people (Slavs, Roma and Sinti, homosexuals), see Holocaust. we really shouldn't go into more detail than this, and these seem to be the numbers people agreed on on Holocaust. The Holocaust article treats the Jewish victims together with the 'gentile' ones. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 13:28, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :seems okay to me, but I oppose to mentioning that Slavs and Roman Catholics were killed industrially. There were some Slavs killed industrially (mainly because of racial reasons) i.e. Soviet POWs, but I think that most of them died through deliberate neglect. User:Andries 13:34, 17 May 2005 (UTC) Dab, I could live with most of that phrasing, except for knocking a million of the holocaust and the other genocides. Only very early research estimated the number of holocaust victims at 5 million (please follow the link in the document you refered to). The perpetrators, victims and current research estimate it at around 6 million. I also insist on the active phrasing, but will do with your compromised term. I believe a Roma person will just like me look to see if the Roma holocaust is mentioned in the Germany article, and excluding this is a disgrace for the English language Wikipedia. Hence my insistance. I believe one picture representing all genocides is appropriate. If this is indeed settled we will have to turn to the other repetitive and lengthy phrasing of German history, excessive and double pictures and the excessive amnount of first level titles, which I fixed in my recent edits. gidonb">User:Gidonb 13:49, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :we'll have no choice but to take over the death toll numbers people came up with on Holocaust. 6 million is the number I'm familiar with, too, but I'm not an expert. I suggest you go over to Holocaust and argue for changing the number there. If you succeed, we'll change it here. It's pointless to have a number here that is different from the one on the main article. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 09:05, 18 May 2005 (UTC) ==Attempt at shortening the article== Part I I'm currently making a list of the major deletions and changes which Gidonb has made on May 6th. This is very tiresome, because it appears that Gidonb has made more than 50 edits in one single evening. Anyway, here is the first batch. * 19:49, 6 May 2005. In the "Social issues" section, Gidonb deletes the following final sentence by User:Reboot: :1. ''This being said, such problems are not unique to Germany and the incidence of the more severe of these problems are relatively rare in perspective.'' * 19:51, 6 May 2005. In the "Culture" section, Gidonb deletes the following: :2. ''Also Dutch language belongs to the Low German languages, and English language was developed from Old Low German.'' * 20:49, 6 May 2005. In the subsection on the "Holy Roman Empire", the previous version said: :3. ''the Germans expanded their influence successfully with the help of the Catholic Church'' Gidonb deletes the word "successfully" (edit summary reads:"by default"). * 21:50, 6 May 2005. Gidonbs starts to delete indiscriminately throughout the page. ** In the "Military" section, Gidonb deletes the following: :4. ''Critics of Chancellor Gerhard Schröder's government have argued that Germany's defence budget of about €24 billion is too small. Nevertheless, Defence Minister Peter Struck has said the defence budget will remain roughly unchanged until 2006.'' ** In "Religion", Gidonb deletes the following paragraph about Jewish immigrants in Germany: :5. ''About half joined a settled Jewish community, of which there are now more than 100, with a total of 100,000 members—up from 30,000 before German Reunification. Some German cities have seen a revival of Jewish culture, particularly in Berlin, where 3,000 Israelis also live.'' * 21:56, 6 May 2005. In the "Geography" section, Gidonb deletes the following sentence/paragraph: :6. ''Since German Reunification of the two parts of the country Germany has resumed its traditional role as the major centre between Scandinavia in the north and the Mediterranean Sea region in the south, as well as between the Atlantic Ocean west and the countries of Central Europe and Eastern Europe.'' (Edit summary by Gidonb reads: "exaggeration") * 22:17, 6 May 2005. In the "Culture" section, Gidonb deletes the following paragraph: :7. ''Many historical figures, though not citizens of Germany in the modern sense, were nevertheless seen as "Germans" in the sense that they were immersed in the German culture, for example Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Franz Kafka and Stefan Zweig.'' In the same "Culture" section, Gidonb also deletes the following: :8. ''Whilst High German was subject to the so-called consonant shift, Low German was not.'' So this is the first batch of Gidonb's deletions which I've put on my list. More of the same tomorrow. - User:Heimdal 15:18, 17 May 2005 (UTC) I fully stand behind these and other improvements I have made to the article. I am one of many who think that this article is way to detailed for a country's main entry. I hope Heimdal will put more of my shortenings to discussion WITH THE COMPLETE EDIT SUMMARIES, as, where included, the above deletions illustrate the thorough thought, detail and effort I made in getting back to the basics one would expect to find in a country's main entry. gidonb">User:Gidonb 16:23, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :I'm absolutely sure that the things that you removed from the article don't matter to *you*. Because the only thing that seems to bother you about Germany is the Holocaust. But perhaps the things that I mentioned above and which you deleted do matter to other people. Ever thought about it, you little "PhD student", you? - User:Heimdal 16:32, 17 May 2005 (UTC) And anyway, we don't need your "shortening" here. The Germany page is a competitive 47KB long, as compared to the 60KB of the United States page. But I really don't want to hold you back, Gidonb. You and your deletion squad can always go to the United States article and start your destruction work over there. - User:Heimdal 16:41, 17 May 2005 (UTC) ::Heimdal can you please stop making personal insults? They are unpleasant for everybody. I took the freedom to number the deletions by Gidonb to facilitate talking about them. I oppose to deletion 7. and I think that the wording of nr. 6 is exaggerated and can be re-added after toning it down (it is true that Germany is an important bridge between "Eastern Europe" and Western Europe.) User:Andries 16:47, 17 May 2005 (UTC) Sorry, Andries, but who accused me of editing an "extremely biased" article, and who tried to badmouth me on this talk page in the first place? - User:Heimdal 16:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC) I am still waiting for Heimdal's apologies for insult after insult. Also I insist that I will not be part of the title, when we deal with the shortening in the article, because others participated. I can and will not claim all the credit. Also, I nowhere claimed that my only interest is the Holocaust. Yes, I am Jewish, but I have many interests. Also in this respect, my insistance was with including the other genocides. I think after apologies we can get down to the issues. gidonb">User:Gidonb 17:40, 17 May 2005 (UTC) Apologise for what, Gidonb. Did you ever apologise to me? Also, it's not true that "others participated" in your destruction work. I've gone through the edits, and what I can say for sure is that the destruction was done by you alone. Yes, I think you're Jewish. But certainly you're not the only Jewish person on Wikipedia. And I've never seen anyone else make such a big fuss about the wording of the Holocaust here but you alone. - User:Heimdal 17:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC) I invite everyone to read through the edit history, Heimdal's remarks above and the rest of the page, including the poll in which everyone sided to have the history section shortened. gidonb">User:Gidonb 18:02, 17 May 2005 (UTC) The poll is old, Gidonb. Consensus shifts. - User:Heimdal 18:06, 17 May 2005 (UTC) That is your opinion. Your insults and the constant reverting of the title of this section makes discussion rather impossible. I was not the only one to shorten the article. gidonb">User:Gidonb 18:10, 17 May 2005 (UTC) Gidonb, it can't be the aim of a poll to put straightjackets upon those who actually work on the article, do we agree? But I don't want to hold you back, Gidonb. You and your deletion squad can move over to the United States page, which is much longer than this article ever was, without anyone over there making a great fuss about it. Do your patriotic duty, Gidonb! Be a man! - User:Heimdal 18:16, 17 May 2005 (UTC) I reject the way Heimdal talks. Also, I disagree that this article belongs only to Germans and those in the US should edit the US article. All Wikipedia articles belong to everyone. Also I believe that certain sections should receive more attention, for example the large moslim community in Germany which received far less attention than the "growing" Jewish population in Germany. gidonb">User:Gidonb 18:19, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :RIGHT, WOULD YOU PLEASE BOTH STOP IT. I have three small children who sometimes argue like this, but they can't keep it up for so long. You are each trying to show the other as unreasonable, but you are both doing the same things. You are negatively profiling each other, you are ascribing motives to each other which obviously are not correct, you are falsely presenting stylistic questions as NPOV questions in order to make your cases sound less trivial, you are not listening to each other or really trying to address where the other is coming from, and above all you have both dug your heels in so deeply that you have no way of compromising left. I would like to make a suggestion: why don't you both withdraw from editing this article for a month and let people who haven't been involved in this thing try to sort the article out. And meanwhile, there are heaps of other things on Wiki which you could usefully be doing. Vast swathes of German history, culture and political life has still barely been commented on. Go and find something to work on, and try to avoid each other until things have cooled down a bit. And if it makes you feel better to flame me for being patronising, go right ahead. --User:Doric Loon 18:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC) Actually, I think I react the way I educate my children to do: with maximum self-constraint. As to your proposal, yes why not? Sorry but I do not take any joy in being insulted here time and again, here and on about everyone's talk page, with the most ridiculous claims (supposedly I am well known to hate Germany and Germans, think they are all Nazis, I am a little PhD student and so on so forth). By the way I am of German descent myself and actively promote German culture. If it would solve the major problems of the Germany page, and others will come back and contribute, I would go for it! gidonb">User:Gidonb 00:44, 18 May 2005 (UTC) ::BTW, would someone who knows how to do it archive nine tenths of this talk page, please? It takes ages to download. --User:Doric Loon 18:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC) I would never flame at you, Doric Loon. I know that your are a good-willing person. Regarding your suggestion. I joined Wikipedia some months because I thought that I had something useful to contribute to this article. I come from Germany, and I'm greatly interested in Germany. I have worked on this page since January, trying to make a better and more interesting article of it. I'm sorry that Gidonb doesn't see it this way. I'm even more sorry to know that you don't see it this way either. - User:Heimdal 19:17, 17 May 2005 (UTC) And if I came back after a month, what then? Gidonb would be back as well, and everything would start all over again. Perhaps the best thing to do is to put this case to the arbitration committee. Although I don't like the idea very much, because I don't have any experience with arbitration. - User:Heimdal 19:38, 17 May 2005 (UTC) :I didn't say you weren't trying to do your best for the article, Heimdal. I just said you have both got yourselves into a position where neither of you can win. So let's just try to lower the tension level here. --User:Doric Loon 19:55, 17 May 2005 (UTC) It seems to me that there is already a main article on the history of Germany, and that the section given should be a much briefer summary of the contents of that article. There also seems to be a lot of consensus for that on the Talk: page. User:JayjgUser_talk:Jayjg 22:13, 17 May 2005 (UTC) hey, while it is obivous that Heimdal is annoyed at gidonb, for the reasons he stated, I don't see his remarks as particularly insulting. He's annoyed, and says so, that's not an insult per se. At least, I have been insulted much worse on WP without batting an eyelid. The deletions may be arguable, but the question is, ''did'' gidonb discuss them at the time he made them? If not, why not? Yes, the article should be shorter, and gidonb may get consensus for some of his removals, but that's beside the point if he didn't bother to discuss. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 09:09, 18 May 2005 (UTC) Right, I'll defend my edits: 1, Listing off the border countries of a nation in the introduction is tedious and long-winded. It doesn't do the article any favours, especially when the same text can be found further down. I consider that a sentence stating the country's position and the fact that it has lots of neighbours replaces the list (Which can still be found further down the page if the reader is interested enough to read on) a lot more concisely. 2, There is no need to say that Germany is a member-state of those international organisations, as their only members ARE states. 3, Likewise 'G8' on it's own says it all. i.e Germany is a member of the Group of 8- no 'nations' is needed. 4, '...what is now the EU' implies that Germany helped to found the predecessor and not the current body. Thus mentioning the EEC is superfluous. 5, Saying 'it' at the start of the third paragraph also omits unnecessary repetition of 'Germany', considering that this has been said in the first two. "Those are my principles and if you don't like them... I have others."- Groucho Marx :op User:Rednaxela 20:09, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) "In the light of a series of revolutionary movements in Europe in 1848, particularly following the revolution in France, which once more established a republic, revolution broke out in Germany." - This sentence has too many appositions. Okay, so it may be factually and gramatically exact, but it makes for horrible reading. User:Rednaxela 18:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC) =="German"-Jews== Why do people in America consider people like Albert Einstein German? There is no such thing as a German-Jew, it's just a feel good term invented by Moses Mendelssohn. I propose a vote to forbid the use of the term German-Jew, one cannot be both German and Jewish. :What would you propose calling him? User:JayjgUser_talk:Jayjg 22:15, 17 May 2005 (UTC) I think the term "German-Jew" is being used by Gidonb. - User:Heimdal |