German Language

#Redirect German language

German language

German (called ''Deutsch'' in German; in German the term ''germanisch'' is equivalent to English ''Germanic''), is a member of the western group of Germanic languages and is one of the world's major languages. It is the language with the most native speakers in the European Union. It is spoken primarily in Germany, Austria, Liechtenstein, in two-thirds of Switzerland, in two-thirds of the South Tyrol province of Italy (in German, ''S�dtirol''), in the small German_speaking_community_in_Belgium of Belgium, and in some border villages of the South Jutland County (Nordschleswig) of Denmark. In Luxembourg (in German, ''Luxemburg''), as well as in the French ''r�gions'' of Alsace (in German, ''Elsass'') and parts of Lorraine (in German, ''Lothringen''), the native populations speak several German dialects, and some people also master standard German (especially in Luxembourg), although in Alsace and Lorraine the French language has for the most part replaced the local German dialects in the last 40 years. Some German speaking communities still survive in parts of Romania, the Czech Republic, Hungary, and above all Russia, Kazakhstan and Poland, although massive relocations to Germany in the 1990s have depopulated most of these communities. Outside of Europe, the largest German speaking communities are to be found in the USA (with the largest concentration of German speakers in North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Wisconsin, and Indiana; Amish, Hutterites and some Mennonites also speak dialect of German) and in Brazil (states of Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina, Paran�, and Esp�rito Santo), where millions of Germans migrated in the last 200 years, but the great majority of descendants don't speak it. Additionally, German speaking communities are to be found in the former German colony of Namibia, as well as in the other countries of German emigration such as Canada, Iceland, Argentina, Paraguay, Chile, Peru, Venezuela, Thailand, and Australia. German is the main language of 96.75 million people in Europe (as of 2004), or 13.3% of all Europeans, being the second most spoken language in Europe, behind Russian language (somewhere around 150 million speakers in Europe), and above French language (66.5 million speakers in Europe in 2004) and English language (64.2 million speakers in Europe in 2004). German is the third most taught foreign language in the European Union (after English language and French language) and in the United States (after Spanish language and French). It is one of the official languages of the European Union. Standard German did not develop out of one regional dialect but was artificially created by poets, philosophers and scholars. In the 16th century Martin Luther translated the ‘The Holy Bible’ into a German as devoid as possible of regional features by consciously merging dialects. He wanted as many people as possible to understand the text. The 18th century with Goethe and Schiller at their zenith brought about a further standardization of German. With more than 120 million people speaking German in 38 countries of the world, it is hardly surprising that the actual usage of German language varies. Like English, German is a pluricentric language with three main centres of usage: Austria, Germany and Switzerland. ==History== As a consequence of the colonization patterns the V�lkerwanderung, the routes for trade and communication (chiefly the rivers), and of physical isolation (high mountains and deep forests) very different regional dialects developed. These dialects, sometimes mutually unintelligible, were used across the Holy Roman Empire. As Germany was divided into many different states, the only force working for a unification or standard language of German during a period of several hundred years was the general preference of writers trying to write in a way that could be understood in the largest possible area. When Martin Luther translated the Bible (the New Testament in 1521 and the Old Testament in 1534) he based his translation mainly on this already developed language, which was the most widely understood language at this time. In the beginning, copies of the Bible had a long list for each region, which translated words unknown in the region into the regional dialect. Roman Catholics rejected Luther's translation in the beginning and tried to create their own Catholic standard (''Gemeines Deutsch''). It took until the middle of the 18th century to create a standard that was widely accepted, thus ending the period of Early New High German. German used to be the language of commerce and government in the Habsburg Empire, which encompassed a large area of Central and Eastern Europe. Until the mid-19th century it was essentially the language of townspeople throughout most of the Empire. It indicated that the speaker was a merchant, an urbanite, not their nationality. Some cities, such as Prague (German: ''Prag'') and Budapest (Buda, German: ''Ofen''), were gradually Germanisation in the years after their incorporation into the Habsburg domain. Others, such as Bratislava (German: ''Pressburg''), were originally settled during the Habsburg period and were primarily German at that time. A few cities such as Milan (German: ''Mailand'') remained primarily non-German. However, most cities were primarily German during this time, such as Prague, Budapest, Bratislava, Zagreb (German: ''Agram''), and Ljubljana (German: ''Laibach''), though they were surrounded by territory that spoke other languages. Until about 1800, Standard German was almost only a written language. In this time, people in urban northern Germany, who spoke dialects very different from Standard German, learnt it almost like a foreign language and tried to pronounce it as close to the spelling as possible. Prescriptive pronunciation guides used to consider that northern German pronunciation to be the standard. However, the actual pronunciation of standard German varies from region to region. Media and written works are almost all produced in standard German (often called ''Hochdeutsch'' in German), which is understood in all areas of German languages (except by pre-school children in areas which speak only dialect, e.g. Switzerland - but in this age of TV, even they now usually learn to understand Standard German before school age). The first dictionary of the Brothers Grimm, the 16 parts of which were issued between 1852 and 1960, remains the most comprehensive guide to the words of the German language. In 1860, grammatical and orthographical rules first appeared in the ''Duden Handbook''. In 1901, this was declared the standard definition of the German language. Official revisions of some of these rules were not issued until 1998, when the German spelling reform of 1996 was officially promulgated by governmental representatives of all German-speaking countries. Since the reform, German spelling has been in an eight-year transitional period where the reformed spelling is taught in most schools, while traditional and reformed spelling co-exist in the media. See German spelling reform of 1996 for an overview of the heated public debate concerning the reform. During the 1870s, the German language successfully replaced Latin as the dominant language in all major European and North American universities, thanks to the prominence of German universities at the time. Most important research in the sciences for some decades afterward was published in German, and new universities preferred German instead of Greek or Latin mottos (e.g., Stanford University.) ==Classification and related languages== German is a member of the West branch of the Germanic languages family of languages, which in turn is part of the Indo-European language family. German is grammatically similar in many ways to Dutch language, but is very different in speech. A speaker of one may require some practice to effectively understand a speaker of the other. Compare, for example: :''De kleinste kameleon is volwassen 2 cm groot, de grootste kan wel 80 cm worden.'' (Dutch) :''Das kleinste Cham�leon ist ausgewachsen 2 cm gro�, das gr��te kann gut 80 cm werden.'' (German) (Which translates as "The smallest chameleon is fully grown 2 cm long, the longest can easily attain 80 cm.") In some places, German and Dutch are spoken almost interchangeably. Dutch speakers are generally able to read German, and German speakers who can speak English are generally able to read Dutch, even if some may find the spoken language amusing, due to a widespread opinion in Germany that after all "Dutch is just a German dialect". ===Official status=== German is the only official language in Germany, Liechtenstein, and Austria; it shares official status in Switzerland (with French (language), Italian (language) and Romansh), and Luxembourg (with French (language) and Luxembourgish language). It is used as a local official language in German-speaking regions of Belgium, Italy, Denmark, and Poland. It is one of the 20 official languages of the European Union. It is also a minority language in Canada, France, Russia, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Poland, Romania, Togo, Cameroon, the United States, Namibia, Brazil, Paraguay, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, the Netherlands, Slovenia, Ukraine, Croatia, Moldavia, Australia, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. German was once the lingua franca of central, eastern and northern Europe. Increasing influence from the English language has affected German recently. However, German remains one of the most popular foreign languages taught worldwide, and is more popular than French as a foreign language in Europe. 38% of all European citizens say they can converse in German (native speakers not counted). In Poland, or Hungary for example, one is more likely to find someone who speaks decent German than English. This is because one can easily receive German TV by cable or satellite. Many people learn German by watching series like Star Trek Dubbing (filmmaking) to German. German is also the second language of the internet, more than 8 % of the websites are in German (English language 50 %, French language 6 %, Japanese language 5 % and Spanish language 3 %). ===Dialects=== The term "German" is used for the dialects of Germany, Austria, German-speaking Switzerland (i.e., outside the French language-, Italian language-, and Romansh language-speaking areas) and some areas in the surrounding countries, as well as for several colony and other ethnic concentrations founded by German-speaking people (e.g. German in the United States). The variation among the German dialects is considerable. Only the neighbouring dialects are mutually understandable. Most dialects are not understandable for someone who knows standard German. The dialects of Germany are typically divided into Low German and High German. The Low German dialects, or Low Saxon as they are sometimes known more precisely, were not affected by the High German consonant shift. Therefore, they are more closely related to Lower Franconian languages like Dutch language than to the High German dialects. Some German dialects are in fact Low Franconian dialects like the native dialect of Cleves. Some linguists, however, do not consider Low German and Low Franconian German dialects to be a part of the German language proper. The High German dialects are divided into Central German language and Upper German language; Standard German is based on Middle German, while the Austro-Bavarian and the Alemannic German-Swabian language dialects are Upper German. The High German dialects spoken by Germanic communities in the former Soviet Union and Ashkenazi Jews have several unique features, and are usually considered the separate language Yiddish. The dialects of German which are or were primarily spoken in colonies founded by German speaking people resemble the dialects of the regions the founders came from (e.g. Pennsylvania German language resembles dialects of the Palatinate, or Hutterite German resembles dialects of Carinthia). ===Standard German=== In German linguistics, only the traditional regional varieties are called dialects, not the different varieties of standard German. Standard German has originated not as a traditional dialect of a specific region, but as a written language. However, there are places where the traditional regional dialects have been replaced by standard German (especially in major cities of Germany and Austria). Standard German differs regionally, especially between German-speaking countries, especially in vocabulary, but also in some instances of pronunciation and even grammar. This variation must not be confused with the variation of local dialects. Even though the regional varieties of standard German are to a certain degree influenced by the local dialects, they are very distinct. German is thus considered a pluricentric language. In most regions, the speakers use a continuum of mixtures from more dialectical varieties to more standard varieties according to situation. In the German-speaking parts of Switzerland, mixtures of dialect and standard are very seldomly used, and the use of standard German is almost entirely restricted to the written language. Therefore, this situation has been called a ''medial diglossia''. Standard German is rarely spoken, for instance when speaking with people who do not understand the Swiss German dialects at all, and it should be used in school. ==Grammar== ''Main article: German grammar'' German is an inflected language. In contrast to Latin, the inflection sometimes (ie. sein to bin, and spielen to spiele) affects not only the word ending but also its stem, making declension and conjugation slightly more difficult. ===Noun inflection=== German nouns inflect into: * one of three declension classes * one of three grammatical gender: masculine, feminine, or neuter. Word endings indicate some grammatical genders; others are arbitrary and must be memorized. * two numbers: singular and plural * four cases: nominative, genitive, dative, and accusative case. In the German orthography, unlike any other orthography, all nouns and most words that take the syntactical function of nouns are capitalized. Like most Germanic languages, German forms left-branching noun compound (linguistics)s, where the first noun modifies the category given by the second, e.g. ''Hundehaus'' (eng. ''doghouse''). Unlike English, where newer compounds or combinations of longer nouns are often written in ''open'' form with separating spaces, German (like the other German languages) always uses the ''closed'' form without spaces, e.g., Baumhaus (eng. ''tree house''). Like English, German allows arbitrarily long compounds, but these are rare. (''See also'' English compounds.) The longest official German word is Rindfleischetikettierungs�berwachungsaufgaben�bertragungsgesetz. ===Verb Inflection=== * one of two conjugation classes, weak verb and strong verb (like English). There are about 200 irregular verbs. * three persons: 1st, 2nd, 3rd. * two numbers: singular and plural * three Grammatical moods: Indicative, Conditional, Imperative * two Grammatical voice: active and passive; the passive being composed and dividable into static and dynamic. * 2 non-composed tenses (Present, Preterite) and 4 composed tenses (Perfect, Plusquamperfect, Future I, Future II) * no distinction between aspects (in English, perfect and progressive) There are also a lot of ways to expand the meaning of a base verb through several prefixes. The word order is much more flexible than in English. The word order can be changed for subtle changes of a sentence's meaning. Most German vocabulary is derived from the Germanic branch of the Indo-European language family, although there are significant minorities of words derived from Latin, French language, and most recently English language. ==Writing system== German is written using the Latin alphabet. In addition to the 26 standard letters, German has three vowels with Umlaut, namely ''�'', ''�'' and ''�'', as well as a special symbol for "ss", which is only used after long vowels or diphthongs (and not used at all in Switzerland), the Eszett (�). Until the early 20th century, German was mostly printed in blackletter typefaces (mostly in fraktur (typeface), but also in Schwabacher) and written in corresponding handwriting (e.g. Kurrent and S�tterlin). These variants of the Latin alphabet are very different from the serif or sans serif antiqua typefaces used today, and are difficult for the untrained to read. They were abolished by the Nazis (incorrectly claiming that these letters are Jewish) in 1941 and this has been retained since for broader and easier usability. ==Alphabet== ''Main article: German alphabet''. ==Pronunciation== ''Main article: German pronunciation''. ==Cognates with English== There are many German words that are cognate to English words. Most of them are easily identifiable and have almost the same meaning. {| border="1" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" ! bgcolor="FFDEAD" | German ! bgcolor="FFDEAD" | Meaning of German word ! bgcolor="FFDEAD" | English cognate |- |best- |best |best |- |Bett |bed |bed |- |haben |to have |to have |- |Katze |cat |cat |- |Nacht |night |night |- |Pfeife |pipe |pipe |- |singen, sang, gesungen |sing, sang, sung |sing, sang, sung |- |Tag |day |day |- |Wetter |weather |weather |- |Wille |will |will |- |Winter |winter |winter |} When these cognates have slightly different consonants, this is often due to the High German consonant shift. There are cognates whose meanings in either language have changed through the centuries. It is sometimes difficult for both English and German speakers to discern the relationship. {| border="1" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" ! bgcolor="FFDEAD" | German ! bgcolor="FFDEAD" | Meaning of German word ! bgcolor="FFDEAD" | English cognate |- |drehen |to turn |to throw |- |Gift |poison |gift |- |Hund |dog |hound |- |Knecht |servant |knight |- |nehmen |take |numb |- |raten |to guess/ to advise |to read |- |ritzen |to scratch |to write |- |Schmerz |pain |smart |- |r�chen |to take revenge |to wreak (havoc) |- |werfen |throw |to warp |} German and English also share many borrowings from other languages, especially from Latin, French language and Greek language, but also from many other languages. Most of these word have the same meaning, while a few have subtle differences in meaning. As many of these words have been borrowed by numerous languages, not only German and English, they are called ''internationalism (linguistics)'' in German linguistics. {| border="1" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" ! bgcolor="FFDEAD" | German ! bgcolor="FFDEAD" | Meaning of German word ! bgcolor="FFDEAD" | language of origin |- |Armee |army |French |- |Arrangement |arrangement (in music) |French |- |Chance |opportunity |French |- |Courage |courage |French |- |Chutzpe |chutzpah |Yiddish |- |Disposition |disposition |Latin |- |Feuilleton |feuilleton |French |- |Futur |future tense |Latin |- |Genre |genre |French |- |Mikroskop |microscope |Greek |- |Partei |political party |French |- |Position |position |Latin |- |positiv |positive |Latin |- |Psychologie |psychology |Greek |- |Religion |religion |Latin |- |Tabu |taboo |Tongan |- |Zigarre |cigar |Spanish |} ==Names of the German language in other languages== Because of the turbulent history of both Germany and the German language, the names that other peoples have chosen to use to refer to it varies more than for most other languages. In general, the names for the German language can be arranged in five groups according to their origin: {| border="0" cellpadding="5" |- valign="top" | 1. From the proto-Germanic word for "people", "folk": *Afrikaans language: ''Duits'' *Chinese language: ''德语'' (''d�yǔ'') or ''德意志语'' (''d�y�zhiyǔ'') *Danish language: ''tysk'' *Dutch language: ''Duits'' *Faroese language: ''t�skt'' *German: ''Deutsch'' *Icelandic language: ''��ska'' *Italian language: ''tedesco'' *Japanese language: ''ドイツ語'' (''doitsugo'') *Korean language: ''독일어'', ''獨逸語'' (''dogileo'') *Norwegian language: ''tysk'' *Marathi language: ''Daitya Bhaasha'' *Romansh language: ''tudestg'' *Swedish language: ''tyska'' *Vietnamese language: ''tiếng Đức'' *Yiddish: טײַטש (''daytsch'' or ''daytsh'') | 2. From the name of the Germanic people: *Albanian language: ''gjermanishte'' *Amharic: ጀርመን (''j�rm�n'') *Armenian Language: գերմաներեն (''Germaneren'') *English language: ''German'' *Esperanto language: ''germana lingvo'' *Georgian language: გერმანული (''germanuli'') *Greek language: ''Γερμανικά'' (''germanik�'') *Hebrew language: ''גרמנית'' (''germanit'') *Hindi: ''jarmanI kI bhAShA'' — transliteration *Irish language: ''Gearm�inis'' *Malay language/Indonesian language: ''bahasa Jerman'' *Maltese language: ''Ġermaniż'' *Romanian language: ''germană'' *Thai language: ภาษาเยอรมัน (''phasa yenman'') | 3. From the name of the Saxonian tribe: *Estonian language: ''saksa'' *Finnish language: ''saksa'' |- valign="top" | 4. From the Old Slavic word for "mute": *Bulgarian language: ''немски'' *Croatian language: ''njemački'' *Czech language: ''němčina'' *Hungarian language: ''n�met'' *Polish language: ''niemiecki'' *Romanian language: ''nemţeşte'' *Russian language: ''неме́цкий'' *Serbian language: ''nemački'' *Slovak language:''nemčina'' *Slovenian language: ''nemščina'' *Ukrainian language: ''німецька'' | 5. From the name of the Alemannian tribe: *Arabic language: ''ألمانية'' (''alimāniyyah'') *Basque language: ''alemanera'' *Breton: ''alamaneg'' *Catalan language: ''alemany'' *French language: ''allemand'' *Khmer language: ( ) *Malagasy: ''alema'' *Occitan language: ''alemand'' *Persian language: ''آلمانی'' (�lm�ni) *Portuguese language: ''alemão'' *Spanish language: ''alemán'' *Tagalog: ''Aleman'' *Turkish language: ''Almanca'' *Welsh language: ''Almaeneg'' | 6. To be assigned *Latvian language: ''vācu'' *Lithuanian language: ''vokiečių'' |} Lao language is unique in that both under the influence of English "German" (through Thai "yenman") and French (the colonial language) "Allemand", it chose a name in between: ພາສາເຢຍລະມັນ (''phaxa yeylaman''), which could be ranked both under category 2 and category 5. Note: The Romanian language used to use in the past the Slavonic term "nemţeşte", but "germană" is now widely used. Hungarian "n�met" is also a Slavonic loan-word. The Arabic name for Austria, "an-namsa" (النمسا), is derived from the Slavonic term. ==See also== * Umlaut, � * German spelling reform * Germish * German family name etymology * German placename etymology * Ethnic German * German as a Minority Language * List of German proverbs * Common phrases in various languages * List of German expressions in English ==External links== * [http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=deu Ethnologue report for German] * [http://www.travlang.com/languages/german/ihgg/ Internet Handbook of German Grammar] * [http://www.lsa.umich.edu/german/hmr/ German resources] at the University of Michigan * [http://www.dw-world.de/dw/0,1595,2469,00.html Deutsche Welle's Online German Courses] * [http://www.applelanguages.com/en/learn/german.php German courses in Germany] * [http://www.vds-ev.de Verein Deutsche Sprache] (in German) * A beginning [http://wikibooks.org/wiki/German German Language Textbook] under development at [http://wikibooks.org/ Wikibooks] * [http://www.diwa.info/ Digital Wenker-Atlas] Project publishing the 19th century ''Linguistic Atlas of the German Empire'' * [http://www.geocities.com/language_directory/languages/german.htm List of online German-related resources] * [http://eserver.org/langs/the-awful-german-language.txt That awful German language] - A humourous essay by Mark Twain * [http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/e/languages/german/index.html Why learn German? A German language profile] * [http://www.vistawide.com/german/why_german.htm Why learn German?] - 12 reasons to learn German * [http://www.actilingua.com/german_courses/german_language.php Short summary on German language and varieties with a map!] * [http://www.ielanguages.com/German.html Free German Language Tutorial from ielanguages.com] ===Phrase and word translations=== * [http://odge.info/ Odge One of the best Dictionary for German language] English-German German-English * [http://dict.leo.org/ The LEO Online Dictionary] German-English-German dictionary. * [http://dict.cc An English-German Dictionary] from dict.cc * [http://www.fdicts.com/german/ Project maintaining free German dictionaries] * [http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/German-english/ German - English Dictionary]: from [http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org Webster's Online Dictionary] - the Rosetta Edition. * [http://www.canoo.net/index_en.html A dictionary and grammar] == Reference == * George Oliver Curme, ''A Grammar of the German Language'' (1904, 1922) - the most complete and authoritative work in English Fusional languages High German languages Languages of Belgium Languages of France Languages of Germany Languages of Italy Languages of Switzerland Languages of Austria Languages of Hungary Guttural R als:Deutsche Sprache ang:��odisc sprǽc az:German_qrupu ga:Gearm�inis kw:Almaynek la:Lingua Germanica moderna (theotisca) ms:Bahasa Jerman nds:D��tsch simple:German language th:ภาษาเยอรมัน vi:Tiếng Đức zh-cn:德语 zh-tw:德語

German language

I find it hard to believe that either German or French is more commonly taught in the United States than Spanish. --Yeah, Spanish is #1 (has this been fixed?) User:Quackberry I have changed (in the section verb inflection) "6 composed tenses" to "4 composed tenses" and deleted "futurum preterite I & II"): There are only four composed tenses, at least in Standard German, and futurum preterite is the same as future II. What is "futurum preterite II"? --User:85.72.177.201 18:16, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)-- imho South Tyrol is not an enclave region, as it has borders to Austria. --User:Zenogantner 01:54 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC) ==Deleting things== Hi 200.180.187.44 , could you please state, why you deleted this text? If there is a reason, it is ok. Please let me know, Thanks :-) User:Fantasy 16:02, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC) ==German speakers== Germany approx. 82 m Austria approx. 7 m Switzerland approx 5 m Belgium, Denmark, Italy and Luxemburg 1 m France approx. 1 m Poland approx. 1 m Russia approx. 2 m Together approx. 99 m http://www.detlev-mahnert.de/deutsch_in_europa.html states around 100 million native speakers and 140 million total (only in europe). http://www.rom.diplo.de/de/kultur/deutsch_lernen/dt-sprachenverbreitung.html " Die Zahl der in- und ausl�ndischen Staatsb�rger im In- und Ausland, die Deutsch als Muttersprache in Wort und Schrift beherrschen liegt bei ca. 91- 92 Millionen (Sch�tzung anhand der Einwohnerzahl deutschsprachiger Gebiete). Die Zahl derjenigen, die Deutsch als Fremdsprache beherrschen, wird zwischen 25 und 55 Millionen gesch�tzt. Deutsch ist die meistgesprochene Muttersprache in der Europ�ischen Union" Where do the other 20 m German-speaking people live ? Do you want to include foreign-language speakers ? User:62.104.210.101 15:35, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC) Most sources i know say approximately 100 million native speakers. Total is a little more difficult and could only be an educated guess. Maybe this table can show it: Frage: "Apart from your mother tongue, which of these languages can you speak well enough to take part in a conversation?" - Dabei waren die 11 EU- Sprachen sowie die Antwortm�glichkeiten "other" und "none" vorgegeben) In % Deutsch Franz�s. Englisch Spanisch Belgien 15,3 49,4 59,6 5,2 D�nemark 65,9 12,1 95,6 7,5 Deutschland 2,4* 17,7 70,3 2,3 - West 2,9* 19,9 74,2 2,7 - Ost 0,3* 8,8 53,7 0,7 Finnland 23,9 8,2 91,7 2,0 Frankreich 12,7 6,5* 63,3 24,7 Griechenland 5,3 10,6 67,2 1,1 Gro�britannien 11,9 28,4 8,7* 4,1 Irland 15,7 44,3 32,6 2,7 Italien 4,7 28,8 52,8 3,7 Luxemburg 90,1 96,5 76,4 8,5 Niederlande 65,6 25,2 93,6 3,1 �sterreich 0,2* 17,0 71,7 2,9 Portugal 2,5 34,0 53,0 13,0 Schweden 32,0 13,2 96,0 7,4 Spanien 1,3 9,3 39,9 15,9* But. Around half of all danes and dutch speak german. This already is 12 million. Maybe anouter 10 million or so in eastern europe. Those who speak german as second language must be in the 25 to 55 million range. The highest estimate of 55 million minus the lowest estimate and you have around 40 million who speak it as a second language. Thats why i came up with the 140 million speakers total. === speaking of which... === no more "famous speakers of". sorry to those who slaved over the 12 people on the list. it was clearly started as a prank, has no equivalent on other pages, and should be maintained, if anywhere, as a list of "languages spoken by" the lists of famous people. (someone really adventurous could try to migrate the "famous" lists with all their various attributes to a table in wikisource, and then set up a dynamic page which would let you see lists of famous people by whatever characteristics you like. eventually, I am sure this will emerge...) == History == Copyedit partly from Standard language. Katholic = Roman Catholic is correct! == Names of German language in other languages == Is this section necessary? I think it would be better to have these translations in the Wiktionary. --User:Bkell 03:28, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC) I am removing (commenting) the Latvian entry because it seems highly improbable that vācie�ū (or its Lithuanian cogante vokiečių) has anything to do, etymologically, with the Indo-European root of ''deutsch''. They should probably be classified under a heading of their own. Any idea ? User:Phmagnabosco 16:14, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC) * I think it is one of the most interresting sections of the article, it should be expanded with a small text, explaining why these differences occur. -User:PedroPVZ 17:13, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) ---- I object the paragraph beginning with reference to Austria-Hungary. First, it's a factual non-sense, as there was no such thing as Austria-Hungary in the mid nineteenth century.
Secondly, Prague was never primarily German, if not for the brief period of 18th century, and even for that time, its "primary Germanity" could be disputed. I suggest rephrasing the entire paragraph to something more easily maintainable as true. --User:Marcvs 07:32, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC) :Sorry, I meant to say the Habsburg Empire. I agree Prague used to be Czech, and was later Czech, so the German character was an "interuption" of sorts, but according to my figures, in 1815 there were 50,000 German speakers in Prague, only 15,000 Czech speakers. (A. J. P. Taylor, ''The Habsburg Monarchy 1809-1918'', p. 24.) By 1848 there were more Czechs, but German was still the primary language of public discourse. Lets not forget that Prague was called Prag at the time. However, I was too categorical in my paragraph, and am more than wiling to see it rewritten to reflect some moderation. User:Peregrine981 13:27, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC) ----- ''German is also the most commonly used language on the Internet after English.'' First I dont know what precisely it should mean, second methodology of statistics which I had seen was not convincing. Wether German is second as stated in aticle or fifth as in [http://global-reach.biz/globstats/evol.html] [http://www.glreach.com/globstats/] or any other number from 2nd to lets say 10... it all doeas not make much sense. User:Wikimol 00:04, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC) ==recently? gimme a laugh!== ''Until recently, however, German was printed in Gothic black letters (Fraktur, or Schwabacher) and written in S�tterlin.'' This is true if ''recently'' means 70 to 90 years ago. :) -- 22:51, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC) :Seems recent, in the life of a thousand- or so year-old language, but "recently" is fairly unencycopedic; the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=German_language&diff=6544886&oldid=6543956 correction] by User:J. 'mach' wust in response to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:German_language&diff=6752966&oldid=5932657 above comment] by User: 217.186.189.246 is good for that reason. --User:JerzyUser talk:Jerzy 18:24, 2004 Nov 15 (UTC) == Mutual Intelligibility == Removed : Many dialects aren't understandable for someone who knows standard German. as (poorly stated) and redundant to : Only the neighbouring dialects are mutually understandable. Someone better informed ''may'' be able to effect a more accurate harmonization.
--User:JerzyUser talk:Jerzy 18:24, 2004 Nov 15 (UTC) :I've more or less reverted your edit and added some explanations. I hope it isn't redundant any more. User:J. 'mach' wust 10:26, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC) == language vs (language) == Wikipedia:Naming conventions (languages) requires "German language" instead of "German (language)", and the rule is followed for hundreds of other language, so I'm at a loss as to why this article has been moved. User:Stan Shebs 05:33, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC) :You're right, the "German language" form is standard. I don't know why it was moved, either. I've moved it back. User:Kwertii 17:43, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC) == Spelling reform of 1996 == I realised that an edit of mine concerning the Spelling reform of 1996 wasn't quite balanced (and quickly improved by Martg76). However, on second thoughts, the present article is not the place to duplicate an overview of a debate that is covered in larger detail in German spelling reform of 1996, so I referred the entire topic to that article. ==composite words and genitiv case== I'm a German speaker and have no idea why the genitiv case is supposed to be waning. This is not the case. Everyone will still say: Das ist das Rathaus der Stadt (This is the council building of the town). Any possession would be expressed that way. On the other hand many dialects don't have a genetiv case, but that is not a new development. It has been decried lately that the dativ case is disappearing and often being merged with the akkusativ case. As to composite words, the example (Donaudampf...) is the one always given to state what a complicated language German is. The translation makes it purposely sound worse and could be done easier: service cap of a Danube steam shipping captain. It should also be stated, that such long composites are grammatically possible but not in use. After 1945 new words have hardly been created by composites. In my opinion the reason is the total loss of self esteem, understandably, of the scientific community and also, the preference of English for marketing reasons. The creation of new German words like Fernseher, Flugzeug, Sauerstoff, Stickstoff etc. instead of using Latin or Greek roots reflect a different state of mind at the time these things were invented or discovered.liebheit@t-online.de ::I think the reason for the perceived decline of the genitive is that it is less used in ways other than to designate a relation of possession as in ''Peter's book''. Examples are constructions such as ''wir gedenken des Papstes'' ("we commemorate the pope"), where a lot of people these days tend to say ''wir gedenken dem Papst'', or ''wegen des...'' ("because of"), which is colloquially more often than not being replaced with ''wegen dem''. Excessive use of ''von dem''/''von der'' rather than ''des''/''der'' may occur more frequently now than it once did, but is still regarded a symptom of a lack of lingual competence. --User:Thorsten1 19:50, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) * Good points all. I changed the Donaudampf... after your example. (Next time you see something that can be improvee, just do it!) The entire section on compound nouns is bad, and focussed on "things that are funny to English speakers". It's also misleading (television is a compound noun just like Fernseher is, and Fernseher isn't actually a compound noun in the first place!), and downright wrong (after the reform, other compounds aren't joined. Actually, English has "instead of" while German now has "an Stelle von"). I urge you to rewrite that part, and give the rest of the page a much-needed look as well. Also, the section about philosophy ("many believe"...) probably isn't verifiable and needs to go (unless there is a source). User:Thore 12:58, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC) ::Especially since composition is also found in English. It works exactly the same way as in German. The only difference is that in German, the compound will be written as a single word, but in English as separate words. This is a mere question of orthography. Even the stress rules are identical. Compare English ''tree house'' to German ''Baumhaus''. You may even translate ''Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftkapit�nsm�tze'' by ''Danube steem shipping company capitain cap'' (of course, nobody would use this in either language) User:J. 'mach' wust 13:26, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC) ::Nice changes. I edited some more, linking to a page about English compounds, and used the same terminology as that page. I also used some ''closed'' English compounds like summertime and doghouse to explain the concept. I'm a native German speaker and i think the genitive case is supposed to be waning. It's right everyone says "das Rathaus der Stadt", but "Stadt" is feminine. Today, more people say instead of "das Dach des Hauses" (the roof of the house) "das Dach vom Haus" or instead of "das Bein des Hundes" (the leg of the dog)"das Beim vom/ von dem Hund" ("Haus" is neuter, "Hund" is masculine). Perhaps it takes too long to prononce the "-es". Please say what you think. 217.247.4.12 * Joined compounds in German seem to have an undending fascination for English speakers. Now 84.56.237.28 has added a new one, after we removed the Donaudampfschiff.... (See discussion above.) Is the really important enough to be mentioned on this page? Words like that are just a curiosity, and virtually never used. To me, that means they shouldn't be used to explain German, just like [floccinaucinihilipilification] is a bad way to explain English. On the other hand, "interesting" stuff like "funny long words" does belong to an encyclopedia almost by definition, so there certainly ''is'' a place for these curiosities. I have no problem with the linked entry to [Rindfleischetikettierungs�berwachungsaufgaben�bertragungsgesetz] -- that's good stuff. (Even though I changed the claim that these things are "common" in German to them being "possible"). Maybe some wordsmithing in the current article all it takes... User:Arbor 07:56, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Sommerzeit == Under grammar>noun inflection, the author has made a false friend: Sommerzeit doesn't mean what it sounds like. It means daylight savings time. :''Sommerzeit'' can mean either daylight saving time or summertime. I think just the one meaning is enough here as it isn't really relevant to the article. User:Saintswithin 09:24, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC) ::True enough, it is not relevant here, but nevertheless it should be stated that these days ''Sommerzeit'' is almost exclusively used to mean daylight savings. Try Google - the results where "Sommerzeit" correctly translates as "summer time" are few and far between. --User:Thorsten1 19:54, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::OK. The example was mine, and I picked the two words because (a) the English compound is joined, and (b) the German equivalent is very close (in spelling) to the English one, so that the example can be read and understood by people who don't speak German very well. I am, of course, completely aware of the various meanings of the word, but I didn't feel the danger of forming a false friend had any relevance to the example. (And it isn't even a false friend -- it's a translation of an English word into a German one that ''also'' has another meaning.) However, since there are now already two objections, I stand corrected. The example has to be changed. An easy way out would be to use the word "Sommerszeit", which avoids the double meaning according to my Duden. But it's not really a good example because of the joining 's'. If anybody can think of other English joined compounds that have an easily understood German equivalent then by all means replace Sommerzeit. User:Arbor 20:59, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::::Personally, I think the example is acceptable for the reasons you gave - even if the word ''is'' on its way to becoming a false friend as a result of the usage shift that occured after daylight saving time was imposed in Germany in 1980. I just felt that the original poster's comment shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. --User:Thorsten1 21:39, 2 May 2005 (UTC) == Third or fourth most popular foreign language taught in the U.S.? == In the article, it says, "German is the third most popular foreign language taught worldwide, and the second most popular in Europe (after English) and the fourth in the USA (after Spanish and French)." Now shouldn't it be ''either'' the third most popular foreign language taught in the U.S. ''or'' the fourth, with the third most popular--whichever it may be--added to the list? --User:ThorstenNY 20:49, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) *Although I think German should be the most teached language in Europe (it is in fact very useful, even in southern European countries like mine is), I also believe it is the third, and far from English and French. -User:PedroPVZ 17:20, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Some corrections, and some doubts == I have replaced the totally bogus claim of 120 million Europeans speaking German. They are only 96.75 million in 2004, and that's just 13.3% of Europeans (not 25% as what bombastically stated). Also, German is only the third most taught foreign language in Europe, not the second. French was forgotten. French is the most taught foreign language in the UK, Ireland, and Romania, and it is the second most taught foreign language in many European countries, including, for that matter, Germany itself. Also, I find the figure of 120 million German speakers in the world quite dubious. There are only 96.75 of them in Europe. That would mean there would be 23.25 million German speakers in the Americas, in Australia, and in the south of Africa. That seems to me quite impossible. According to the 2000 US census, there were only 1,382,613 people age 5 y/o and over who spoke German at home in the US. The US is the largest pool of German speakers outside of Europe, so I don't see how the figures can add up to 120 million. Should we change the number? We can't know for sure the number of German speakers in the world, but I reckon a realistic estimate for the whole world would be approximately 100 million people whose main language is German (96.75 million in Europe, approx. 1.5 million in the US, approx. 1.5 million in Brazil, and the remaining few hundred thousands in Paraguay, Australia, South Africa, Namibia, and so on). Waiting for your comment before I change the figure. User:Hardouin 13:53, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC) * 1,5 million in Brazil yeah right.O_o. I think we need Fox Mulder to investigate that one. Actual German speaker are only found among some elderly, and I think it is not German, but some German dialect or language. This is due to restrictive language measures in a past nationalist and authoritive regime. 1,5 million is the accounted number for non-Portuguese native speakers in Brazil: mostly Italians, Spanish, Germans, Japanese, etc. and native South-Americans. -User:PedroPVZ 00:05, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::German and dialects of German: What's the big difference? In the usual countings, there is no distinction. If there were one, then the number of (standard) German speakers in Germany itself would be surprisingly low. This would be as if only speakers of Received Pronunciation would count as English speakers. User:J. 'mach' wust 00:55, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::I used the word dialect because I'm not sure it is a language, pllaadutch someting... It's a wierd name. But, there is very few people actualy speaking it, numbers I cant tell.-User:PedroPVZ 04:35, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::::It's Plattd��tsch (literally 'flat-German'), a popular term for the regional northern German varieties. Many insist it should be considered a language of its own, but it lacks a standardized version, an orthography and — an army! User:J. 'mach' wust 12:49, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) :According to [http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=deu ethnologue.com], which is widely accepted as authoritative, there are ''"75,300,000 in Germany"'' (1990), ''"Population total all countries: 95,392,978."''. That apparently exludes second language speakers resident in Germany, most of whom approach native speaker competence. The :de:Deutsche Sprache states a figure of 101 million native speakers. I assume this would ''include'' German speakers with a non-German ethnic background living in one of the German-speaking countries. Further, the article lists 120 million second language speakers, which I suppose probably includes people with a rudimentary memory of school German... As for the percentage of Europeans speaking German, that probably depends on who you count in as a European. I suppose the percentage given is based on the pre-2004 European Union. --User:Thorsten1 16:55, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC) * Personally, I don't see nor accept Ethnologue has authoritive, but JUST has 'useful. It would be useful if some German would explore this issue, and see where German is actually spoken. Because using ancient emigration is duping. Some people that were descendant from emigrants to Germany, maybe have German has native language or his/hers parents language. We don't know, unless there is a study about that. -User:PedroPVZ 17:39, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::Germans in the former Soviet Union are often forgotten. According to Heinz Ingenhorst (1997): "Die Russlanddeutschen", in a census in the late 1979, 1.94 millions declared themselves as Russian Germans (of which 46.5 percents lived in Kazakhstan), though by 1989, only about half of them declared German as their native tongue. However, the community of Germans in Russia has been largely destroyed by the massive emigration to Germany from the late 90s up to the present day (more than a million). User:J. 'mach' wust 00:55, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) As you may have noticed, the figures you provide for the Soviet Union are very old. As a matter of fact, when I calculated the figure of total German speakers in Europe, the 96.75 million figure that I put in the introduction, I did include German speakers in Russia. I even took the pain to look at the latest 2002 Russian census, which is available online only in Russian (!), and the result is: 500,000 people in Russia declared they were ethnically German. So I included the 500,000 people in the 96.75 million figure (although be aware that the majority of them is totally fluent in Russian, and probably uses more often Russian than German). The was majority of German speakers in Russia have left to Germany in the 1990s, so that now there are only 500,000 Germans left in Russia. User:Hardouin 23:44, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::I would warn you against equating former Soviet Union ethnic Germans with German speakers. Although the Russian Germans did preserve their lingual heritage for a remarkably long time, the language was virtually stamped out in the second half of the 20th century - to the effect that only the oldest generation of ethnic Germans from Russia has any command of German today. In Germany, ethnic Germans native speakers of Russian are in fact notorious for their slow adaption to the German-speaking environment (as opposed, eg., to Russian Jews without any ethnic German background). Thus, these figures have to be handled with utmost care. --User:Thorsten1 19:28, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Could you provide the link to that? I do believe you, but I'd be very interested in having the source! :Kazakhstan and Sibiria, where the majority of the Russian Germans used to live, are not part of Europe, and Kazakhstan is a country of its own, independent from Russia. So for a counting of the Germans in the former Soviet Union (who call themselves Russian Germans no matter where they lived) we'd have to include data from Kazakhstan as well. User:J. 'mach' wust 08:13, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::Yes true, but remember that the vast majority of the Germans in Kazakhstan have left in the 1990s, either going back to Russia, or going to Germany. As for the link, it is: [http://www.eastview.com/census_2002/1_7_eng.pdf]. Carefull with Russian censuses though! They tend to under-report people, especially in big cities, and also there may be some ethnically German people who identified themselves just as Russian. If you look carefully online, you may also be able to find the Kazakhstan census, but I'll let you research that. User:Hardouin 11:12, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::So far, I've only found the [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/kz.html CIA World Factbook entry on Kazakhstan] which cites a 1999 census according to which 2.4 percent of the population are German. It provides no total number of population for the same date, but I guess that in 1999, it cannot have been much different from the current 15 million. This would mean that only some tens of thousends remained in Kazakhstan by that date, and it'll be fewer by now. There seem to be no numbers of speakers for either country. User:J. 'mach' wust 16:04, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) That would mean 360,000 ethnic Germans in Kazakhstan. Like I said above, it is almost impossible to find out the exact number of German speakers in all the countries of the world, that's why I propose we put "approximately 100 million speakers" in the infobox, which is a much more credible figure than the 120 million that is written now. We should also put a little footnote saying that these 100 million speakers are both mother tongue speakers (the majority) and 2nd language speakers (immigrants who live in Germany, Austria, and German part of Switzerland), but that the 100 million figure does not include people across the world who learnt German as a foreign language, and may have some level of fluency in German (from very poor to fluent). What do you think? User:Hardouin 03:00, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Third most taught language in Europe - Vandalism == An anonymous user keeps deleting the reference to German being the third most taught foreign language in Europe, insistig on putting that it is the second most taught. I believe this is nationalist vandalism. The number of pupils studying foreign languages in Europe is particularly well documented, because the European Union conducts some surveys every year. People can check extensive data at [http://www.eurydice.org www.eurydice.org]. According to EU data, French is the second most taught foreign language in the EU (of 25 members), while German is only third. The latest data I saw showed that approximately 28% of junior high school (middle high school) students in the EU (of 25 members) study French as a foreign language, while only 20% study German as a foreign language. In high schools, about 29% study French as a foreign language, while 28% study German. Figures for English are around 90%, both in junior high schools and in high schools. Any new nationalist vandalism on that subject will be reported to some admins. User:Hardouin 16:35, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC) :I will continue to revert your French nationalist vandalism. ''Europe IS NOT EU!!!!'' Europe is also Norway, Iceland as well as a large number of countries in Eastern Europe where German is the most important foreign language. Even Russia (where the highest number of German learners are located) is in fact a European country. ::That's indeed a good point. So I see the situation as follows: There are second language acquisition rankings of the EU; there are none of all Europe (which'd also include Switzerland apart from Northern and Eastern European countries ;). So the safest thing to do while we have no statistics about the entire continent is to stick with what we have and provide only the EU ranking, but explicitly labelling it EU ranking and not Europe ranking. User:J. 'mach' wust 00:33, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) *Only a very small part of Russia is in Europe. The countries from Nothern Europeare fewly populated, main reason ice (iceland just the name gives a chill). Thought with this heat I would love a drink with lots of ice. just k/d! -User:PedroPVZ 01:36, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::Geographically, ie. based on the disputable convention that the Ural forms Europe's north eastern fringe, only a small part of Russia is a part of Europe. But this European part (which is small only in relation to Russia as a whole, but vast in relation to any other European country) happens to be most densely populated.--User:Thorsten1 09:16, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) *(all)Russia: 143,420,309 (maybe 100 mi live in Europe, I don't know...) *Germany 82,431,390 *France 60,656,178 *United Kingdom 59,553,800 *Italy 58,103,033 *Ukraine 47,425,336 *Spain 40,341,462 *Poland 38,635,144 *Romania 22,329,977 *The Netherlands 16,407,491 *Serbia and Montenegro 10,829,175 *Greece 10,668,354 *Portugal 10,566,212 *Belgium 10,364,388 *Czech Republic 10,241,138 *Hungary 10,006,835 *Sweden 9,001,774 *Austria 8,184,691 *Switzerland 7,489,370 *Bulgaria 7,450,349 ... Norway 4,593,041 ... Iceland 296,737 (a lot of people, it seems a Little China/India)-User:PedroPVZ 10:39, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) According to http://www.eurydice.org, ''"German and French share second place as the second most taught language [in Europe]: German is more widespread in the countries of northern, central and eastern Europe and French in the southern and German-speaking countries."'' [http://www.eurydice.org/News/Communique/en/PR%20CC%20LANG%202005_EN.pdf] Actually, only thanks to the many Germans, who prefer to learn French, French is still somewhat important as a foreign language in Europe. Here in Scandinavia 60 % learn German and some 25-30 % learn French. Think about that, Hardouin. the problem is that there are countries where German is learned by 0%. While there are always people around Europe learning French. Here in the Iberian Peninsula, French is learned by 10% (in Portugal almost 20%, English is a little more than French) while German is only in Portugal by 3%, 0%-0.5% (or less) in Spain, they prefer Italian. BTW I don't why why this fuss around this... In Portugal, English/French has the same level. While German is side by side with Latin, only teached to people of some areas between 16 and 18 yrs old. I never had the option to learn German, if i would had I would probably learned it, dispite not being among the most beautiful of the languages.-User:PedroPVZ 20:15, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Some answers to what was said here. #1 I find the accusation of French nationalism quite ridiculous, given that I am not even French myself. But, whatever! #2 I like accuracy, and I certainly don't like edits by anonymous users who seem to be motivated by propaganda only and not by the acuracy of facts. #3 Eurydice actually DOES include the countries of Europe outside of the UE, if you have read in detail, with the exception of Commonwealth of Independent States countries (Russia, Ukraine, and Bielorussia). If (non CIS) European countries outside of the EU are included, then it skews results even more in favor of French. Romania is the most populated European country outside of the EU (and discounting CIS countries), its population amounts to a third of the total population of all the European countries not yet part of the EU, and in Romania Eurydice tells us that about 88% of pupils are learning French, whereas only 10% are learning German. In Switzerland, a state twice more populated than Norway, about 70% of pupils learn French, because it is mandatory in the curriculum, since French is one of the official languages of Switzerland, whereas only about 30% learn German (70% don't need to learn German, it's already their native tongue). User:Hardouin 02:31, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::I suggest you read the Eurydice report: ''German and French share second place as the second most taught language [in Europe]: German is more widespread in the countries of northern, central and eastern Europe and French in the southern and German-speaking countries.'' [http://www.eurydice.org/News/Communique/en/PR%20CC%20LANG%202005_EN.pdf]. Is Eurydice wrong? :::There's no reason to doubt the Eurydice data. However, they have researched only the countries of the EU. I don't know of any figures that include all of Europe, and nobody has mentioned any. So instead of guessing what the most teached languages in all Europe are, we better don't say anything at all about them. Instead, we should use the Eurydice data on the EU. User:J. 'mach' wust � User talk:J. 'mach' wust 12:15, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) The quote from Eurydice that our anonymous user is putting here is just a general statement. If you read the tables in detail, you will find out that approximately 28% of junior high school (middle high school) students in the EU (of 25 members) study French as a foreign language, while only 20% study German as a foreign language. In high schools, about 29% study French as a foreign language, while 28% study German. User:Hardouin 12:21, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) :I haven't found it yet, the Eurydice site is quite labyrintical. Could you please point out the exact document (and page number if it is a pdf)? User:J. 'mach' wust � User talk:J. 'mach' wust 14:04, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) [http://www.eurydice.org/Documents/Eurydice_en_bref/EN/4_pages_langue_EN.pdf], page 4. User:Hardouin 14:47, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) *I find very difficult to understand German having the same level of French in Europe. -User:PedroPVZ 18:58, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::Okay, so now both sources are on the table, and we can compare them. The source of 83.109.xxx.x is [http://www.eurydice.org/News/Communique/en/PR%20CC%20LANG%202005_EN.pdf Key Data on Teaching Languages at School in Europe], the press release from February 2005. The source of Hardouin (who is not French) is [http://www.eurydice.org/Documents/Eurydice_en_bref/EN/4_pages_langue_EN.pdf Key Data on Teaching Languages at School in Europe], also from February 2005. This second source, however, is not only a press release, but provides more detailed numbers. Therefore, I think this document is more credible: German is the third taught second language in the EU after English and French. ::What reasons does 83.109.xxx.x have to reject that second document? What sources does he have for his claims about entire Europe (he hasn't provided any so far). User:J. 'mach' wust � User talk:J. 'mach' wust 16:41, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) Yes, the Eurydice statement is a general statement. Any reason ''not'' to trust it? Let me repeat: "German and French share second place as the second most taught language [in Europe]: German is more widespread in the countries of northern, central and eastern Europe and French in the southern and German-speaking countries." If Eurydice say so, we can trust it. Hardouin provides data for the EU which is an organization with do not cover the entire Europe. Specifically, many of the countries where German is an important foreign language and French is less important (Eastern Europe incl. Russia (with the highest number of German learners in the world), as well as countries like Norway) are not included. :You're also providing "data for the EU which is an organization with do not cover the entire Europe": You're relying exactly on the same data as Hardouin, that is, on the Eurydice report, which provides only data for the EU (and occasionally for Norway, Island, Romania and Bulgaria). Why do you keep claiming wrongly you have provided wider data? You haven't yet. I want to see statistics, not an out of context quote from a press release which doesn't provide any numbers at all. The document you're basing your argumentation on is only a resume for those who don't bother about all the statistical details, and it's a resume of the very same document Hardouin referred to. Where have you learnt that Russia has the highest number of German learners in the world? That is the source you should provide! User:J. 'mach' wust � User talk:J. 'mach' wust 01:11, 4 May 2005 (UTC) ==Cognates with English== I'm sorry that "internationalism" is a usual linguistical term. Of course it doesn't mean that the corresponding word is used in all the languages of the world, and it surely is somewhat Eurocentristic, but that doesn't stop it from being a usual linguistical term. As to the origin of "sozial": Dudenredaktion (Hrsg.): Duden, Herkunftsw�rterbuch, Etymologie der deutschen Sprache, 3., v�llig neu bearbeitete und erweiterte Auflage, Dudenverlag: Mannheim, Leipzig, Wien, Z�rich 2001 (the latest edition): "Das Adjektiv wurde im 18. Jh. — wohl unter dem Einfluss von entsprechend frz. ''social'' — aus gleichbed. lat. ''socialis'' entlehnt." User:J. 'mach' wust 08:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) :I guess Duden online is less complete than the paper version then. About "internationalism", I am removing, because, as you say it yourself, this is a highly Eurocentric concept, and it is quite a shaky disputed concept. Here at Wikipedia, we intend to write for the whole world, not just for Europe. User:Hardouin 11:08, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Russian== According to our article, there "are somewhere around 150 million Russian speakers in Europe". As Russia has less than 150 million inhabitants in total, this must be wrong. How many native Russian speakers are there in Europe? :Russian is actually spoken outside Russia as well, you know. Ever hear of, say, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine? All of these are European countries, they are relatively densely populated (at least if compared to the non-European part of Russia), and they all have a considerable percentage of native speakers of Russian. So the figure of 150 million speakers is not totally unrealistic.--User:Thorsten1 22:21, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Ranking again == I would like to see a source for the claim that "German is the third most popular foreign language taught worldwide". Naïvely, I would have guessed at a ranking like English, French, Spanish, Japanese, Russian, and then German. The original source for this statement, inserted by User:Nico, was http://flabs.emich.edu/mzinggeler/topten.html, which makes the more specific and dubious claim that the the top three are English, Japanese, and German. I would be very pleased but slightly surprised if figures for a worldwide ranking were available that accurately treated the world outside of Europe and North America. China in particular seems likely to contribute much larger counts to Japanese, Russian, and possibly Spanish, than to German. — User:Pekinensis 23:36, 13 May 2005 (UTC) I have removed the unsubstantiated claim. — User:Pekinensis 22:58, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

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