
:''Sailing frigates were fourth-rate, fifth-rate, or sixth-rate-rated ships in the rating system of the Royal Navy.'' Frigate is a name which has been used for several distinct types of warships at different times. It has referred to a variety of ship roles and sizes. In the age of sail, it referred to a ship smaller and faster than a battleship, used for patrolling and escort work rather than fighting fleet actions. In modern military terminology, the definition of a frigate is a warship intended to protect other warships and merchant marine ships and as anti-submarine warfare (ASW) combatants for amphibious expeditionary forces, underway replenishment groups, and merchant convoys. However, many ships known as frigates have bordered on, or entirely been more similar to a different class of ship including everything ranging from a destroyer to a cruisier or even a battleship. The variation coming from a number of sources such as the era, the particulars of battlefield roles, and the standards of a given country. {| align=right |[[Image:La_Boudeuse.jpg|thumb|''Boudeuse'', of Louis Antoine de Bougainville]] |- |[[Image:La_Rieuse.jpg|thumb|''La Rieuse'', a 30-gun oar frigate (1674-1698)]] |- |Astrolabe_frigate'',_of_Jules_Dumont_d'Urville">Image:Dumont-d'Urville.web.jpg|thumb|''Astrolabe_frigate'', of Jules Dumont d'Urville
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|[[Image:20000_Abraham_Lincoln.jpg|thumb|The fictitious ironclad frigate ''USS Abraham Lincoln'', based on late 19th Century vessels, from the novel ''Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea'']]
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==Age of sail==
A frigate was a medium-sized sailing warship with one gun deck, plus guns on the spar deck. It was faster than the larger ship of the line and larger than a sloop-of-war. British sailing frigates during the period 1640-1860 were rated fourth-rate, fifth-rate and sixth-rate according to the rating system of the Royal Navy.
Frigates were perhaps the hardest-worked of warship types during the age of sail. They scouted for the fleet, went on commerce-raiding missions and patrols, conveyed messages and dignitaries, and filled in places in the line of battle if there was a shortage of battleships (from the term "line of battle" ship, but more commonly referred to as "ships of the line" or referred to by the number of guns they carried (for example, "74s"). Usually frigates would fight in small numbers or singly against other frigates. Unlike larger ships that were placed in ordinary, frigates were kept in service in peacetime both as a cost-saving measure and to provide quality experience to frigate captains and officers which would be useful in wartime. Frigates may also carry marines or naval infantry for land-based and ship-boarding operations.
In the 17th century, frigates were masterpieces of engineering and design; the British added more sails and weapons, the Dutch made frigates with a shallow draft and the French added bow and stern weapons and Baroque designs. Frigate armament ranged from 22 guns on one deck to up to even 70+ guns on two decks. Common armament was 32 to 44 long guns, from 8 to 24 pounders (3.6 to 11 kg), plus a few carronades (large bore short range guns), which weren't counted in the rating of the ship. In the early steam age (1840-60) steam frigates were the fastest ships around, finally evolving into the cruisers of the 20th century.
The oldest commissioned warship in the US Navy is USS Constitution, better known as "Old Ironsides", a frigate launched 21 October 1797. It is the oldest commissioned warship afloat in the world; HMS Victory, although older, is maintained in drydock. The US Navy's 44-gun frigates (or "super-frigates"), which usually actually carried 56-60 guns, were very powerful and tough. These ships were so well-respected that they were often seen as equal to 4th-rate ships of the line, and RN fighting instructions ordered British frigates (usually 32-guns or less) to never engage American frigates at any less than a 2:1 advantage.
In the late 1800s, the term "frigate" fell out of naval fashion; ships that had been designated frigates were redesignated "cruising-ships" and from there to cruisers. The term "frigate" would lie mostly unused until after the Second World War, when it would be reappropriated to describe ships that during that war had been called destroyer escorts.
==Creation of the frigate==
The term "Frigate" was used in the seventeenth century, normally indicating a ship that was faster than usual.
Perhaps one of England's greatest shipwrights, Phineas Pett (1570-1647), lived for ten years after the construction of one of the world's greatest ships, the HMS Sovereign of the Seas was built and launched by his son Peter. Phineas Pett's innovations were perhaps to be finally realized in the designs of his son Peter Pett for the ''Frigate'' a design of English shipwrightry worthy of Mathew Baker. Sir Peter Pett was almost as distinguished as his father. He was the builder of the first frigate, ''Constant Warwick''.
William Symonds said of this vessel: ''"She was an incomparable sailer, remarkable for her sharpness and the fineness of her lines; and many were built like her."'' Pett ''"introduced convex lines on the immersed part of the hull, with the studding sail and sprit sails; and, in short, he appears to have fully deserved his character of being the best ship architect of his time."''
This kind of 17th-century "frigate" later developed into the two-decked ship of the line of 60-70 guns.
The classical sailing frigate as we know it from the Napoleonic wars can be traced back to French developments in the second quarter of the 18th century. These ships were ship-rigged and carried all their main guns on a single gun deck, what had used to be the upper gun deck on similarly-sized two-decked ships earlier. What had used to be the lower gun deck was now totally unarmed and functioned as an orlop deck where the crew lived, and was in fact placed below the waterline of the new frigates. The new sailing frigates were able to fight their guns when the seas were so rough that comparable two-deckers had to close the gun-ports on their lower decks. Like the larger 74 which was developed at the same time, the new frigates were good sailers and good fighting vessels due to a combination of long hulls and low upperworks compared to vessels of comparable size and firepower.
The Royal Navy captured a handful of the new French frigates during the early stages of the Seven Years' War (1756–1763) and were duly impressed by them, particularly for their inshore handling capabilities. They soon built copies and started to adapt the type to their own needs, setting the standard for other frigates as a superpower.
Early frigates were armed with 9-pounder (4 kg) guns, development soon led to 12- and 18-pounder (5 and 8 kg) armed frigates, and at the turn of the century the biggest ones even carried 24 pounder (11 kg) main batteries.
Royal Navy frigates of the late 18th century were based on the 1780-vintage ''Perseverance'' class, which displaced around 900 tons and carried 36 guns; this successful class was followed by the ''Tribune'' class batch of fifteen ships starting in 1801 that displaced over 1,000 tons and carried 38 guns.
==Modern frigates==
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|[[Image:Alouette_Motte_Piquet.jpg|thumb|A number of modern frigates carry helicopters for reconnaissance, Anti-submarine operations and rescue. Here, an Aérospatiale_Alouette_III on the French FS La Motte-Picquet.]]
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|[[Image:FS_Surcouf.jpg|thumb|The state of the art in 2005 features stealth frigates with anti-missile capabilities. Here, the La Fayette class frigate stealth frigate FS Surcouf]]
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Sail and early steam frigates are only related to modern frigates by name. The name frigate passed out of use in the mid-19th Century and was readopted after World War II by the British to describe an anti-submarine escort vessel larger than a corvette but smaller than a destroyer. Such a vessel had a bit less armament than a destroyer; its lesser grade propulsive machinery would yield a lower top speed; and it could carry far less fuel. To cross even the Atlantic ocean, such a vessel needs to be refueled ''en route''. These limitations were not much hardship for a WWII anti-submarine vessel but would seriously limit a battle fleet which replaced destroyers by such frigates.
In the 1960s and 1970s, "guided missile frigates" have brought an anti-air warfare (AAW) capability to the frigate mission, but they have some limitations. Designed as cost-efficient surface combatants, they lack the multi-mission capability necessary for modern surface combatants faced with multiple, high-technology threats and offer limited capacity for growth. Until 1975, these vessels were called "Ocean escorts" and designated "DE" or "DEG" (a holdover from the Second World War, when they were called "Destroyer escorts").
From the 1950s to the 1970s, guided missile frigates were commissioned in modern navies, which were actually AAW cruisers built on destroyer-style hulls; some of them (the American ''Bainbridge'', ''Truxtun'', ''California'' and ''Virginia'' classes) were nuclear powered. These were far larger than any other frigates ever seen (though the use of these "frigates" in comparison to the larger "cruisers" was analogous to the relationship between age of sail frigates and ships of the line), and all were properly reclassified as "guided missile cruisers" in 1975 (except for the smaller Farragut class destroyer class ships, which were reclassified as guided missile destroyers) and struck from the Naval Vessel Register in the 1990s. With the improvement of the anti-air and anti-missile missiles (like the Aster 15), such frigates are increasingly used as a fleet defense platform.
At the opposite end of the spectrum, some frigates are specialised in anti-submarine warfare. They bear improved sonar equipements, torpedoes, and even missile-carried anti-submarine torpedoes. They retain minimal anti-surface capabilites with anti-ship missiles (like the Exocet), but are weak against air threats.
Many modern frigates have landing decks aft and can carry helicopters, which give them extra capabilities: the helicopters can be used for reconnaissance tasks (bearing radars), have anti-submarine capabilities (by dropping sonobuoys or wire-mounted sonars, and carrying torpedoes and depth-charges), are invaluable for rescue operations, and can also perform other support duties such as ferrying.
Modern times have seen the arrival of stealth frigates fitted with anti-missile capabilities. Their shapes, designed to offer a minimal radar signature, also give them a good air penetration; the manoeuverability of these frigates has been compared to those of sailing ships. A good example is the French La Fayette class frigate with the Aster 15 missile.
==See also==
* Current frigates (will be superseded by lists below)
* List of frigates of the Royal Navy
* List of frigates of the United States Navy
* List of sailing frigates of the United States Navy
* List of ships of the Canadian Navy
* Rating system of the Royal Navy
* United States Navy 1975 ship reclassification
===Further reading===
*Gresham, John D., "The swift and sure steeds of the fighting sail fleet were its dashing frigates", ''Military Heritage'' magazine, February 2002.
==External links==
*[http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/frigates.htm Frigates] from battleships-cruisers.co.uk - history and pictures of United Kingdom frigates since World War II
*[http://www.destroyersonline.com/usndd/fftypes.htm? Frigates] from Destroyers OnLine - pictures, history, crews of United States frigates since 1963
*[http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/ches1.htm "So Uneasy a Ship: The Unfortunate Career of the Frigate Chesapeake" by Joseph C. Mosier]
==Lists of frigates== Note that Algerian, Tripolitan and Tunisian sail frigates are listed under Turkey. All Italian city-state frigates are listed under Italy.
Partially from: http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/ships/ship-ffg.html
[[image:Tackling.png|thumb|center|400px|''Sailing frigate and its rigging'']]
Ship types
==Frigates before modern USN== ''can someone add something to do with frigates before the modern US navy apparently invented them? not that there were warships before the 20th c. or anything'' (originally on User:The_Epopt homepage:) Hi Epopt -- Sorry for ranting on your frigate page. i don't even know if you're American, but for the life of me I can't see why you started with current bloody American warships. Do you know how many times I have to excuse Americans for their insularity to my European friends? Sorry -- it's just that I kind of expected something about naval warfare when I read it -- and unfortunately, in my mind, the first thing I see is Trafalgar -- not big friggin' grey metal hulks. Did see a Trident once, though...VERY impressive. About two miles off, and the conn tower still looked enormous. Done ranting now, Sorry...but could you please round out your ship articles to reflect the bigger picture? User:JHK ---- Have a bloody blast! Not only is this, in theory, at least, a collaborative effort, but you're also not paying me enough to stay up late tonight to finish this article to your specifications. ---- Sorry Epopt -- If you've seen some of the crap I have to deal with, you'll understand the impatience, I hope. The articles are very good -- I just think they should have more info than the somewhat narrow definition you've provided (which is very well-written and informative). Just hoping you'll add to it later, since you obviously have more than a clue about this stuff. Again, my apologies. Shouldn't log on when worn to a frazzle fighting the unwinnable. ---- ==Frigates of Trafalgar== My apologizes for the snippy and boldface reply. I ''will'' expand this and the other ship-type pages over the next few days. But if you know something about the frigates of :Trafalgar, please add it! --User:The Epopt :I wish I knew more -- used to be good on the Napoleonic wars. Now, I can't even remember if Nelson was on a Frigate or a ship of the line... :-( User:JHK ==HMS Victory and Oldest commissioned ship== HMS Victory is a ship of the line. - not a frigate ::See! I knew it was one or the other, but not sure enough! Thanks, rmherman! ---- HMS Victory was built in 1750's so it is older than the USF Constitution. And why is it USF not USS? --rmhermen :Sure, it's older, but is it still under commission? And it's USF, "United States Frigate," because that's how it was designated "Back In The Day," and the Navy is rather tradition-bound, so they haven't changed it. :) -- EdwardOConnor :Actually, let me partially take that back. It seems like it can be written USF or USS. :: Actually it is ''always'' "USS." In 1901, Theodore Roosevelt signed a law requiring that the names of all commissioned ships of the United States Navy be prefaced with the qualifier "United States Ship" or the initials "U.S.S." Before then, "USS" was common, but not universal, with other designators like "United States Frigate," "United States Bark," "United States Navy Ship" (please note that this is not the same as the "United States Naval Ship" which prefaces the names of modern vessels of the Military Sealift Command), etc. :::User:Iceberg3k 12:52, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC) :According to the US Navy's Official site for Constitution, she is the oldest commissioned warship afloat in the world. (See http://www.ussconstitution.navy.mil/shiphistoryx.htm) So I stand by my original statement. The second oldest warship afloat is British. See http://www.hms.org.uk/bestlinks.htm -From the page you mention: The official website of HMS VICTORY which is the oldest commissioned warship in the world, and is still manned by Officers and Ratings of the Royal Navy. She is now the flagship of the Second Sea Lord and Commander in Chief Naval Home Command. So certainly still under commission and older than the Constitution. I don't know how the US Navy justifies its claim. --rmhermen :But is she afloat? I thought ''Victory'' was in drydock. ''Constitution'' is in Boston Harbor. - I think you've got it. Pretty strange to have a flagship in drydock but so it is. --rmhermen ---- Indeed, USS ''Constitution'' is the oldest floating warship - HMS ''Victory'' was damaged beyond economical repair by Nazi bombs during the Second World War, but the Royal Navy's pride in her is too great to scrap her, so they held her together with cables, put her up in a drydock and named her the flagship of a naval official who never goes to sea. :User:Iceberg3k 03:48, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC) ---- ==Frigate illustration== The illustration is far from perfect - but since it would end up as an orphan otherwise, I placed it here. It is also a bit on the large side, and could beling in rigging instead (but that article has enough illustrations as it is). I've left it here for such time that something better comes along... User:Egil 11:07 May 1, 2003 (UTC) ---- ==List of frigates== There are an awful lot of frigates in the world, the list should probably be separate from the article proper. User:Stan Shebs 17:22, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC) ---- I moved the frigate classes to List of frigates. I'd like to add a little something on the Royal Navy frigates when I have the time, as the current article seems to be centering really only on American frigates. Oh and on ''HMS Victory'', from what I hear if she was moved out of dry dock she would sink basically. USS (or USF) ''USS Constitution'' has apparently had a number of rebuilds over the decades which is how she is still stable enough to stay afloat. It's a pity about ''HMS Victory'', as i'd of liked to of seen her take to the waterlike she did 200 years ago, so that she be along side dozens of ships in the proposed International Fleet Review (I think it's a review) for the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Trafalgar next year. User:SoLando 10:55, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC) ---- The list of frigates only lists CURRENT ships. can we rename it "list of current frigates" (perhaps do the same for other ships types) as well as having a page on ships that no longer exist? separate pages for each country with more than 5 ships say. User:SpookyMulder 12:13, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- The List of frigates is actually filled with ship classes that are no longer in commission. Do you mean frigates of the Age of Sail? User:SoLando 15:13, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- Sure, all frigates would be on the list of frigates page, but only current ones (including those in reserve, as museums etc.) would be listed under "current frigates" page. Is that OK? each type of ship would have a "current..." page as well as a total page. you could make a current ships for each navy set of pages, also, that would link to the current ship types page? There seems to be 2 list of current frigate pages currently! User:SpookyMulder 13:00, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- The List of current frigates does sound quite confusing because some of the ships have been scrapped during the 1970s and 1980s. How about a List of frigates being moved to List of frigates of the Age of Sail, or something along those lines, and List of current frigates being moved to List of modern frigates to make it less crowded, instead of grouping Age of Sail frigates with "modern" frigates in the List of frigates page and make the List of frigates into a disambiguation page? User:SoLando 14:04, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC) : no more disambiguation pages. links should know where they're going:) perhaps group modern frigates with ships they're more similar to, such as destroyer excorts or destroyers (is there a difference, anyway?) sail frigates evolved into early steam frigates and then sort of died out along with sail battleships. both were replaced by ironclads and armored frigates around 1860, so they have nothing to do with modern frigates. I guess you could group modern frigates with destroyer escorts, since DEs stopped being built around the same time as modern frigates started, correct? You'd have: *carriers and seaplane carriers *amphibious/helicopter carriers *battleships (sail and steam) *sail frigates and early steam frigates up to about 1875 *large cruisers (armored, battle- and heavy) *small cruisers (protected, light and missile) *destroyers *Subs *DEs and modern frigates *corvettes/sloops *smaller types each of these groups has a single evolutionary line. each type with more than a certain number of ships (most of them) would be divided up into major countries on individual pages plus one page for countries with fewer than say, 5 ships of the type. How's that sound? You could also have one page for each of the above types "List of current..." and each country could have a "current ships" page also, which would all link to the individual or ship class pages. so you could try to find a ship through type, or country. User:SpookyMulder 10:56, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- Mostly frigates are used for a more general-purpose role (most famously the Leander class frigate) while destroyers tend to be large and used for more single-role purposes, mainly anti-air warfare. So there is a significant difference in their roles. The term "destroyer escort" is a more American name, and the roles that the DE was used for was basically fulfilled by the frigate in the RN. I may be wrong but I think the DE was simply renamed to frigate in USN service?. I would recommended retaining the current system, whereby what you have is as follows: *aircraft carriers *amhibious/helicopter carriers grouped with LPDs and other amphibious warships *battleships grouped with battlecruisers *cruisers grouped together *destroyers *frigates grouped with DEs, corvettes and sloops *smaller vessels grouped into seperate categories *submarines Maybe add a new category/categories for sail warships? Also, grouping major countries warships types is a good idea, and I think, has been completed for the RN and it looks good. Personally I would like to see major countries warship types remain on a single page with the "minor" countries so as to get as many links as possible to the ship types, rather than decrease them.User:SoLando 14:58, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- OK but for a start, battlecruisers descended directly from armored cruisers (see Blucher for eg). It doesn't really make sense to include them a longside battleships. Historically they weren't, and they were built at the same time as the battleships so you'd get a confused building order. There are too many cruisers from 1879-1945 for them to be all on the one page. that's the only reason for breaking those up. Corvettes and sloops also, during WW1 and WW2 there were hundreds of these and they really aren't the same as destroyers. if you group them all together you could only list classes and again, you'll get a jumbled building order. It's important to show the evolution of the ship types to give an idea of where each class of ship fit in, historically rather than just grouping them into pages of similar sized ships. Torpedo-boats are one I forgot. With helicopter cruisers such as Vittorio Veneto, I guess you'd have to decide whether their main purpose was to carry choppers, or to act regular cruisers. the russians had some of those ships which really should be on the carriers page, so i suppose the italian ones should also, unless you want to put the Kiev class with LPDs rather than carriers? Your list doesn't mention sail frigates/corvettes. if they're not on the same page as modern frigates/corvettes, they really need their own pages. There were a lot of these ships between 1700 and 1850 so they really deserve their own page I think. What do you mean by "keeping major countries ship types on the same page as minor countries"? You mean one single page listing ALL cruisers of the world? that's gonna be really long. on the page "Cruiser", you'd have each major country linked there, plus an additional one for all the minor countries. purely because otherwise it's gonna be a really long page. see the bottom of "Battleship" for an example. User:SpookyMulder 06:18, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- I concede that it does make more sense to have battlecruiser classes on the "cruiser" page. Yes, there were an immense, and startling amount of corvettes and sloops constructed, to the extent that even having them on their own page could be too large. How about simply including the classes but omitting the individual ships? And placing them on the "frigates" page which is their closest comparable ship type, at least it was during WWII? Vittorio Veneto and similar vessels were more primarily used for the role of helicopter cruiser, than the more traditional role of a cruiser as her armament was quite small (76mm). The Russian carriers were more similar to aircraft carriers than the Italian Vittorio Veneto and the two Andrea Dorias. The Russians did have a similar class to what the Italians had, the Moskva-class, so that should be placed with the helicopter/amphbious carriers. On sail frigates, I did mention that "Maybe add a new category/categories for sail warships?" What I meant was in regards to the "Cruisers list" was that the major countries should have their page ((List of cruisers of the Royal Navy]] etc) linked to on the "List of cruisers" page, in place of linking specific ship types on the List of cruisers page if the list does becomes too large.User:SoLando 17:35, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- OK. so you'd have some cruisers on the "list of cruisers" except for certain countries.... I guess. see the bottom of "battleships" though and tell me if that is OK for other ship types as well? i think it looks neater, and also you can get to any country just with one click rather than 2. corvette classes only could be listed, i suppose, although i think it's valuable to list individual ships as well. it kinda looks odd to have "unique" ships named but all the rest listed en masse under their class name. I don't see why you'd list corvettes and frigates on the same page though. they're not the same type of ship, and they had different purposes. User:SpookyMulder 05:41, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC) :In general, if a navy identifies two types and they're not subtypes of a third more general type, we should make two lists - otherwise we're in the position of second-guessing the pros, not a good place to be in unless one is personally a world-recognized authority. Another thing to do is to total up numbers from Jane's or wherever, and think about how one would organize if all the lists were to be complete. (Personally, I no longer like to make new lists unless I can get them to 90-95% very quickly - what good is an incomplete list? If something is missing, you don't know if it's because it doesn't exist or if it's because the list is incomplete.) User:Stan Shebs 17:16, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- True, but unless you want to spend hours at a single sitting adding all the ships in a type, they'll be done over a few weeks. The whole point of this encyclopaedia is that it is continually updated, anyway! You're right about how many ships are in a class (that's why I divided the battleships lists up but grouped nations with less than 5 ships.) individual ship types can be done the same way (grouping helicopter cruisers with amphibious carriers for eg) I think the frigates page should have mention at the start that there were several distinct time periods and several distinct types of ships known as frigates. another type was even earlier than sail frigates. small oared boats were known as frigates. perhaps around 1550 or so? there were also merchant clippers built to similar designs (Blackwall frigates). like east indiamen, frigate sized ships could be taken over by the navy and armed. several of these ships had gun ports for the purpose. I noticed merchant ships don't seem to be discussed much. perhsps I've just overlooked the pages. User:SpookyMulder 14:25, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC) ==First paragraph is navigational aid== Please do not remove the first paragraph as it functions as a quick navigational aid to the other articles in the rating system series. Thank you. User:Petersam 21:26, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC) ==Revert of SpookyMulder's edits== I reverted SpookyMulder's edits to the "Lists of frigates" section for several reasons: # It removed the entries for two nations with existing lists - the US and Peru # The new colors make the table much harder to read; in particular, the redlinked entries are hard to see. # It removed the "List of" prefix for all the redlinked entries. Since this is a list of lists, all articles linked to should have titles of the form "List of x" I've retained the addition of the Greek frigates list and the note at the top of the list, and added a note about merging the Italian city-states into a single "List of Italian Sail Frigates" --User:Carnildo 21:30, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
See other meanings of words starting from letter:
Words begining with Frigate:
Frigate
Frigate
Frigate-bird
Frigatebird
Frigatebirds
Frigates
Frigates
Frigate_Bird
Frigate_Chesapeake
Frigate_Navy
Frigate_navy
Frigate
:''Sailing frigates were fourth-rate, fifth-rate, or sixth-rate-rated ships in the rating system of the Royal Navy.'' Frigate is a name which has been used for several distinct types of warships at different times. It has referred to a variety of ship roles and sizes. In the age of sail, it referred to a ship smaller and faster than a battleship, used for patrolling and escort work rather than fighting fleet actions. In modern military terminology, the definition of a frigate is a warship intended to protect other warships and merchant marine ships and as anti-submarine warfare (ASW) combatants for amphibious expeditionary forces, underway replenishment groups, and merchant convoys. However, many ships known as frigates have bordered on, or entirely been more similar to a different class of ship including everything ranging from a destroyer to a cruisier or even a battleship. The variation coming from a number of sources such as the era, the particulars of battlefield roles, and the standards of a given country. {| align=right |[[Image:La_Boudeuse.jpg|thumb|''Boudeuse'', of Louis Antoine de Bougainville]] |- |[[Image:La_Rieuse.jpg|thumb|''La Rieuse'', a 30-gun oar frigate (1674-1698)]] |- |Astrolabe_frigate'',_of_
==Lists of frigates== Note that Algerian, Tripolitan and Tunisian sail frigates are listed under Turkey. All Italian city-state frigates are listed under Italy.
Frigate
==Frigates before modern USN== ''can someone add something to do with frigates before the modern US navy apparently invented them? not that there were warships before the 20th c. or anything'' (originally on User:The_Epopt homepage:) Hi Epopt -- Sorry for ranting on your frigate page. i don't even know if you're American, but for the life of me I can't see why you started with current bloody American warships. Do you know how many times I have to excuse Americans for their insularity to my European friends? Sorry -- it's just that I kind of expected something about naval warfare when I read it -- and unfortunately, in my mind, the first thing I see is Trafalgar -- not big friggin' grey metal hulks. Did see a Trident once, though...VERY impressive. About two miles off, and the conn tower still looked enormous. Done ranting now, Sorry...but could you please round out your ship articles to reflect the bigger picture? User:JHK ---- Have a bloody blast! Not only is this, in theory, at least, a collaborative effort, but you're also not paying me enough to stay up late tonight to finish this article to your specifications. ---- Sorry Epopt -- If you've seen some of the crap I have to deal with, you'll understand the impatience, I hope. The articles are very good -- I just think they should have more info than the somewhat narrow definition you've provided (which is very well-written and informative). Just hoping you'll add to it later, since you obviously have more than a clue about this stuff. Again, my apologies. Shouldn't log on when worn to a frazzle fighting the unwinnable. ---- ==Frigates of Trafalgar== My apologizes for the snippy and boldface reply. I ''will'' expand this and the other ship-type pages over the next few days. But if you know something about the frigates of :Trafalgar, please add it! --User:The Epopt :I wish I knew more -- used to be good on the Napoleonic wars. Now, I can't even remember if Nelson was on a Frigate or a ship of the line... :-( User:JHK ==HMS Victory and Oldest commissioned ship== HMS Victory is a ship of the line. - not a frigate ::See! I knew it was one or the other, but not sure enough! Thanks, rmherman! ---- HMS Victory was built in 1750's so it is older than the USF Constitution. And why is it USF not USS? --rmhermen :Sure, it's older, but is it still under commission? And it's USF, "United States Frigate," because that's how it was designated "Back In The Day," and the Navy is rather tradition-bound, so they haven't changed it. :) -- EdwardOConnor :Actually, let me partially take that back. It seems like it can be written USF or USS. :: Actually it is ''always'' "USS." In 1901, Theodore Roosevelt signed a law requiring that the names of all commissioned ships of the United States Navy be prefaced with the qualifier "United States Ship" or the initials "U.S.S." Before then, "USS" was common, but not universal, with other designators like "United States Frigate," "United States Bark," "United States Navy Ship" (please note that this is not the same as the "United States Naval Ship" which prefaces the names of modern vessels of the Military Sealift Command), etc. :::User:Iceberg3k 12:52, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC) :According to the US Navy's Official site for Constitution, she is the oldest commissioned warship afloat in the world. (See http://www.ussconstitution.navy.mil/shiphistoryx.htm) So I stand by my original statement. The second oldest warship afloat is British. See http://www.hms.org.uk/bestlinks.htm -From the page you mention: The official website of HMS VICTORY which is the oldest commissioned warship in the world, and is still manned by Officers and Ratings of the Royal Navy. She is now the flagship of the Second Sea Lord and Commander in Chief Naval Home Command. So certainly still under commission and older than the Constitution. I don't know how the US Navy justifies its claim. --rmhermen :But is she afloat? I thought ''Victory'' was in drydock. ''Constitution'' is in Boston Harbor. - I think you've got it. Pretty strange to have a flagship in drydock but so it is. --rmhermen ---- Indeed, USS ''Constitution'' is the oldest floating warship - HMS ''Victory'' was damaged beyond economical repair by Nazi bombs during the Second World War, but the Royal Navy's pride in her is too great to scrap her, so they held her together with cables, put her up in a drydock and named her the flagship of a naval official who never goes to sea. :User:Iceberg3k 03:48, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC) ---- ==Frigate illustration== The illustration is far from perfect - but since it would end up as an orphan otherwise, I placed it here. It is also a bit on the large side, and could beling in rigging instead (but that article has enough illustrations as it is). I've left it here for such time that something better comes along... User:Egil 11:07 May 1, 2003 (UTC) ---- ==List of frigates== There are an awful lot of frigates in the world, the list should probably be separate from the article proper. User:Stan Shebs 17:22, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC) ---- I moved the frigate classes to List of frigates. I'd like to add a little something on the Royal Navy frigates when I have the time, as the current article seems to be centering really only on American frigates. Oh and on ''HMS Victory'', from what I hear if she was moved out of dry dock she would sink basically. USS (or USF) ''USS Constitution'' has apparently had a number of rebuilds over the decades which is how she is still stable enough to stay afloat. It's a pity about ''HMS Victory'', as i'd of liked to of seen her take to the waterlike she did 200 years ago, so that she be along side dozens of ships in the proposed International Fleet Review (I think it's a review) for the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Trafalgar next year. User:SoLando 10:55, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC) ---- The list of frigates only lists CURRENT ships. can we rename it "list of current frigates" (perhaps do the same for other ships types) as well as having a page on ships that no longer exist? separate pages for each country with more than 5 ships say. User:SpookyMulder 12:13, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- The List of frigates is actually filled with ship classes that are no longer in commission. Do you mean frigates of the Age of Sail? User:SoLando 15:13, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- Sure, all frigates would be on the list of frigates page, but only current ones (including those in reserve, as museums etc.) would be listed under "current frigates" page. Is that OK? each type of ship would have a "current..." page as well as a total page. you could make a current ships for each navy set of pages, also, that would link to the current ship types page? There seems to be 2 list of current frigate pages currently! User:SpookyMulder 13:00, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- The List of current frigates does sound quite confusing because some of the ships have been scrapped during the 1970s and 1980s. How about a List of frigates being moved to List of frigates of the Age of Sail, or something along those lines, and List of current frigates being moved to List of modern frigates to make it less crowded, instead of grouping Age of Sail frigates with "modern" frigates in the List of frigates page and make the List of frigates into a disambiguation page? User:SoLando 14:04, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC) : no more disambiguation pages. links should know where they're going:) perhaps group modern frigates with ships they're more similar to, such as destroyer excorts or destroyers (is there a difference, anyway?) sail frigates evolved into early steam frigates and then sort of died out along with sail battleships. both were replaced by ironclads and armored frigates around 1860, so they have nothing to do with modern frigates. I guess you could group modern frigates with destroyer escorts, since DEs stopped being built around the same time as modern frigates started, correct? You'd have: *carriers and seaplane carriers *amphibious/helicopter carriers *battleships (sail and steam) *sail frigates and early steam frigates up to about 1875 *large cruisers (armored, battle- and heavy) *small cruisers (protected, light and missile) *destroyers *Subs *DEs and modern frigates *corvettes/sloops *smaller types each of these groups has a single evolutionary line. each type with more than a certain number of ships (most of them) would be divided up into major countries on individual pages plus one page for countries with fewer than say, 5 ships of the type. How's that sound? You could also have one page for each of the above types "List of current..." and each country could have a "current ships" page also, which would all link to the individual or ship class pages. so you could try to find a ship through type, or country. User:SpookyMulder 10:56, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- Mostly frigates are used for a more general-purpose role (most famously the Leander class frigate) while destroyers tend to be large and used for more single-role purposes, mainly anti-air warfare. So there is a significant difference in their roles. The term "destroyer escort" is a more American name, and the roles that the DE was used for was basically fulfilled by the frigate in the RN. I may be wrong but I think the DE was simply renamed to frigate in USN service?. I would recommended retaining the current system, whereby what you have is as follows: *aircraft carriers *amhibious/helicopter carriers grouped with LPDs and other amphibious warships *battleships grouped with battlecruisers *cruisers grouped together *destroyers *frigates grouped with DEs, corvettes and sloops *smaller vessels grouped into seperate categories *submarines Maybe add a new category/categories for sail warships? Also, grouping major countries warships types is a good idea, and I think, has been completed for the RN and it looks good. Personally I would like to see major countries warship types remain on a single page with the "minor" countries so as to get as many links as possible to the ship types, rather than decrease them.User:SoLando 14:58, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- OK but for a start, battlecruisers descended directly from armored cruisers (see Blucher for eg). It doesn't really make sense to include them a longside battleships. Historically they weren't, and they were built at the same time as the battleships so you'd get a confused building order. There are too many cruisers from 1879-1945 for them to be all on the one page. that's the only reason for breaking those up. Corvettes and sloops also, during WW1 and WW2 there were hundreds of these and they really aren't the same as destroyers. if you group them all together you could only list classes and again, you'll get a jumbled building order. It's important to show the evolution of the ship types to give an idea of where each class of ship fit in, historically rather than just grouping them into pages of similar sized ships. Torpedo-boats are one I forgot. With helicopter cruisers such as Vittorio Veneto, I guess you'd have to decide whether their main purpose was to carry choppers, or to act regular cruisers. the russians had some of those ships which really should be on the carriers page, so i suppose the italian ones should also, unless you want to put the Kiev class with LPDs rather than carriers? Your list doesn't mention sail frigates/corvettes. if they're not on the same page as modern frigates/corvettes, they really need their own pages. There were a lot of these ships between 1700 and 1850 so they really deserve their own page I think. What do you mean by "keeping major countries ship types on the same page as minor countries"? You mean one single page listing ALL cruisers of the world? that's gonna be really long. on the page "Cruiser", you'd have each major country linked there, plus an additional one for all the minor countries. purely because otherwise it's gonna be a really long page. see the bottom of "Battleship" for an example. User:SpookyMulder 06:18, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- I concede that it does make more sense to have battlecruiser classes on the "cruiser" page. Yes, there were an immense, and startling amount of corvettes and sloops constructed, to the extent that even having them on their own page could be too large. How about simply including the classes but omitting the individual ships? And placing them on the "frigates" page which is their closest comparable ship type, at least it was during WWII? Vittorio Veneto and similar vessels were more primarily used for the role of helicopter cruiser, than the more traditional role of a cruiser as her armament was quite small (76mm). The Russian carriers were more similar to aircraft carriers than the Italian Vittorio Veneto and the two Andrea Dorias. The Russians did have a similar class to what the Italians had, the Moskva-class, so that should be placed with the helicopter/amphbious carriers. On sail frigates, I did mention that "Maybe add a new category/categories for sail warships?" What I meant was in regards to the "Cruisers list" was that the major countries should have their page ((List of cruisers of the Royal Navy]] etc) linked to on the "List of cruisers" page, in place of linking specific ship types on the List of cruisers page if the list does becomes too large.User:SoLando 17:35, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- OK. so you'd have some cruisers on the "list of cruisers" except for certain countries.... I guess. see the bottom of "battleships" though and tell me if that is OK for other ship types as well? i think it looks neater, and also you can get to any country just with one click rather than 2. corvette classes only could be listed, i suppose, although i think it's valuable to list individual ships as well. it kinda looks odd to have "unique" ships named but all the rest listed en masse under their class name. I don't see why you'd list corvettes and frigates on the same page though. they're not the same type of ship, and they had different purposes. User:SpookyMulder 05:41, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC) :In general, if a navy identifies two types and they're not subtypes of a third more general type, we should make two lists - otherwise we're in the position of second-guessing the pros, not a good place to be in unless one is personally a world-recognized authority. Another thing to do is to total up numbers from Jane's or wherever, and think about how one would organize if all the lists were to be complete. (Personally, I no longer like to make new lists unless I can get them to 90-95% very quickly - what good is an incomplete list? If something is missing, you don't know if it's because it doesn't exist or if it's because the list is incomplete.) User:Stan Shebs 17:16, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---- True, but unless you want to spend hours at a single sitting adding all the ships in a type, they'll be done over a few weeks. The whole point of this encyclopaedia is that it is continually updated, anyway! You're right about how many ships are in a class (that's why I divided the battleships lists up but grouped nations with less than 5 ships.) individual ship types can be done the same way (grouping helicopter cruisers with amphibious carriers for eg) I think the frigates page should have mention at the start that there were several distinct time periods and several distinct types of ships known as frigates. another type was even earlier than sail frigates. small oared boats were known as frigates. perhaps around 1550 or so? there were also merchant clippers built to similar designs (Blackwall frigates). like east indiamen, frigate sized ships could be taken over by the navy and armed. several of these ships had gun ports for the purpose. I noticed merchant ships don't seem to be discussed much. perhsps I've just overlooked the pages. User:SpookyMulder 14:25, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC) ==First paragraph is navigational aid== Please do not remove the first paragraph as it functions as a quick navigational aid to the other articles in the rating system series. Thank you. User:Petersam 21:26, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC) ==Revert of SpookyMulder's edits== I reverted SpookyMulder's edits to the "Lists of frigates" section for several reasons: # It removed the entries for two nations with existing lists - the US and Peru # The new colors make the table much harder to read; in particular, the redlinked entries are hard to see. # It removed the "List of" prefix for all the redlinked entries. Since this is a list of lists, all articles linked to should have titles of the form "List of x" I've retained the addition of the Greek frigates list and the note at the top of the list, and added a note about merging the Italian city-states into a single "List of Italian Sail Frigates" --User:Carnildo 21:30, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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