
''Ethnologue: Languages of the World'' is a web and print publication of SIL International (formerly known as the Summer Institute of Linguistics), a Christianity linguistic service organization which studies lesser-known languages primarily to provide the speakers with native language biblical texts. The Ethnologue contains statistics for 6,912 languages in the 15th edition, released in 2005 (up from 6,809 in the 14th edition, released 2000) and gives the number of speakers, location, dialects, linguistic affiliations, availability of the Bible, etc. It is currently the most comprehensive existing language inventory, along with the [http://www.linguasphere.net/ Linguasphere Register]. What counts as a language depends on socio-linguistic evaluation: see Dialect. The Ethnologue provides a three-Latin alphabet code, called SIL code, for each language it describes. The number of SIL codes significantly exceeds those of ISO 639-1 and RFC 3066. In the 15th edition they have synchronised the SIL codes with ISO 639-3. The NPOV of Ethnologue as a scientific institution is sometimes disputed, particularly in areas of language classification associated with the Bible and Abrahamic religion. In addition to choosing a primary name for the language, it also gives some of the names by which a language is called by its speakers, by the government, by foreigners, by neighbors, etc., and how it has been named and referenced historically, regardless of which designation is considered official, politically correct, or offensive, or by whom. This selection of "alternative names" is extensive, but often incomplete. As is inevitable in an enterprise so enormous, the Ethnologue contains some errors, some of which it fixes at every edition; for instance, en route to the 14th edition, some languages such as Chenoua language were added, and some rumoured "languages" such as Nemadi language or Wutana language were removed. Some possible remaining errors are discussed at Imraguen language, Senhaja de Srair language, Ghomara language, Kwavi language, Molengue language, Yauma language, Fer language, Yeni language, Hwla language, and Ofayé. ==See also== *Language *List of languages ==External link== *[http://www.ethnologue.com/ Web version of "The Ethnologue" at ETHNOLOGUE .com] Linguistics
==advertisement== This reads more like an advertisement than an encyclopedia article. Does it really belong here? Should it be deleted? user:-- April, 7 Mar 2002 Agreed on deleting. --user:Rgamble I disagree. Google found [http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&num=10&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=Ethnologue%3A+Languages+of+the+World+&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=off 17,400] hits. The article does need some work though.... --user:maveric149 Well, I look at it like this... Effectively the article is about a product that people aren't going to know about unless they see the website. In which case they won't learn anything else here... I'm not sure what else can be said about the site as an article except what it does... and that's an advertisement. Perhaps I'm wrong, but if someone can make a real article out of it, I won't complain. ;) user:Rgamble ps: Really hope that made sense. Brain's shutting down. ---- Here is the "article" The ''Ethnologue: Languages of the World'' is a web/print publication of SIL International, which describes itself as an educational charity and a christian volunteer organisation. They claim that it contains statistics for 6,809 languages (2000 edition) which describes the number of speakers, location, dialects, linguistic affiliations, availability of the Bible, etc. Most likely the copying permissions are not sufficiently liberal to allow use of the data in Wikipedia. The web version is available at http://www.ethnologue.com/. This is clearly not an encyclopedia article; the fact that it gets a lot of hits in google doesn't sound compelling to me. I have two suggestions, to those interested: 1) at whatever time this can be developed into an encyclopedia article -- although what an article about what is effectively a store wouldbe, I don't know -- it can be restored. 2) in the meantime, it certainly does seem appropriate to put the link to this website into other articles, perhaps language, linguistics, missionary organizations, indigenous people. SIL certainly would deserve its own article, although I am not prepared to write it. Without a doubt, SIL has played a vital role in transforming indigenous languages from oral to written forms, and thus, arguably, plays a role in preserving them. But as a US based missionary group, its influence on indigenous societies and its relationship with other governments is complex; David Stohl has written about this and I know there are others (I think there is a book called ''God is an American'' or something like that, check out Cultural Survival and IWGIA. So an article on SIL would be very interesting. In the meantime, the link may be useful to those who study language and linguistics -- why not just put it there? :User:Slrubenstein The Ethnologue certainly does deserve an article; it is a vital part of the debate about what to supplant the ISO 639 codes with, and is a very well-known reference among linguists. You almost might as well not have an article about Unicode! As a credible effort to provide an alternative to the Ethnologue, Linguasphere may deserve its own article as well, if anyone can be bothered (I can't at the moment.) User:Mustafaa 22:20, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) ----- It might be an opportune moment to remind folks that Wikipedia:Deletion policy is that deletion is for irredeemable articles; articles which would be useful once repaired should be listed under Wikipedia:Cleanup. In any case, this article is now much improved. I am puzzled that several people have objected to this being an article "about a store" or "about a product". They do sell ''some'' stuff on that website (mainly hard copies of stuff available free as soft copy) but most of it (hundreds of megs of data) is freely available for non-commercial use and some of it is freely available for any use. Their [http://www.ethnologue.com/policies.asp policies] give fairly liberal rights to non-commercial users, but commerical users must seek permission for most stuff; this would be incompatible with the GFDL. Still maybe it's worth someone contacting them to ask since they do leave open what permissions might be granted. Also, the SIL codes are available free for everyone, along with their SIL/ISO mapping tables. As the search results for these codes are also made freely available (for display that is, not copying), would it be useful & GFDL acceptable to include links like this "SIL code: [http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=ABC ABC]" in language articles? (And as an aside, they also offer a few [http://www.sil.org/computing/catalog/show_software_catalog.asp?by=cat&name=Font free fonts] which might be useful to authors of linguistics articles, plus a huge searchable bibliography which may be useful in researching articles. User:Securiger 17:08, 17 May 2004 (UTC) == suggesting a change == In the current version of the article it states that SIL is a "...service organization which studies lesser-known languages to provide missionaries for their speakers." I believe it is incorrect to say that SIL studies that languages in order to 'provide missionaries'. SIL educates and provides resources for people (call them linguists or missionaries, or linguistically trained missionaries) who are trained to create writing systems and then translations of biblical texts in languages where there was previously no bible/biblical texts. As a byproduct of this goal of creating bibles in native languages, SIL and its trainees have created the first linguistic documentation of many previously unstudied, or understudied languages. Some of their material (such as the ethnologue) is useful to academic linguists as well. Point being, I guess, that I want to change this sentence "...study...languages to provide missionaries" to something like: "SIL...studies lesser-known languages primarily to provide the speakers with native language biblical texts." what do you think? -JD : I agree. - User:Mustafaa 19:42, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC) Then let us do it... User:Refdoc 23:49, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) looks good, thanks for doing that -JD User:Hospitalhill ==Errors== The follow sentence looks like a heavy understatement: ''As is inevitable in an enterprise so enormous, the Ethnologue contains some errors'' Unfortunately, the errors in Ethnologue are so common and so significant that its use as a reliable source could be questioned. The errors are not limited to small languages, even rather large languages are given incorrect descriptions ''[above comment posted by 62.78.185.120 20:45, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)]'' :Can you cite some actual examples of this kind of grave errors? User:Mark Dingemanse— User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 20:51, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC) :: Thank you for your comment Mark, I should of course have included some examples. Here is a short list, focused on the languages I know best. -Scottish Gaelic: The number of speakers is based on the census in 1971. There is one census every 10th year in the UK; census results from 1981, 1991 and 2001 are availablde and should of course be used. Not having the newest information is not a big deal, but using information that is 35 years old definitely is. Even worse, the only dialect listed for Scottish Gaelic is East Sutherland Gaelic. That dialect is a very marginal and almost extinct one, and all the major dialects are completely ignored. -Irish Gaelic: Once again, a very old census is cited and the number given is not even close to the real number of Irish speakers. There are three main dialects of Irish: Ulster, Connacht and Munster. Ethnologue suggests two more, Leinster and Donegal. Donegal Irish is the same as Ulster Irish whereas Irish died out in Leinster in the 19th century. -Welsh: Once more, a 35 year old census. -Swedish: The spelling of some of the dialects is almost beyond recognition. It claims that Gutniska is a separate language, a claim I haven't seen anywhere else and certainly not in Scandinavian linguistics. The claim that 'proper' Swedish is spoken in Svealand (alone) is unique to Ethnologue and lacks any foundation in reality. Some dialects described are actually the same dialect but with different names. -Serbo-Croatian: It is said to be a language of Yugoslavia. No country has been called Yugoslavia for some years now. Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian all link to the Serbo-Croatian page and that can be defended on a linguistic basis. What cannot be defended is the information that this language is spoken in "Yugoslavia and Macedonia". What happened to Croatia and Bosnia? The dialects are mixed up. First they are called CHAKAVIAN, KAJKAVIAN, STOKAVIAN, then they are called KAYKAVSKI, CHAKAVSKI, SHTOKAVSKI. Someone not knowing the language might think these are different dialects. The Macedonian minority in Bosnia that Ethnologue has discovered would be unknown both to Bosnians and to Macedonians. I picked these languages because they are the ones I know best. It would be very strange indeed if only the language I speak are exactly the ones that Ethnologue makes serious mistakes in describing. I would expect to find about the same kinds of errors in other languages as well, although I'm not capable to detect mistakes in languages such as (random pick) Quechua, Romanian, Persian or Japanese. :This is very interesting. I get the impression that the Ethnologue devotes little attention to (minor) languages of the Western World. My experience with their treatment of African languages (the errors pointed out in the article aside) is that it is in general relatively reliable as a supplemental source. As a rule, I always try to look up more authoritative sources. User:Mark Dingemanse— User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 09:57, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC) Ethnologue is a bit like Wikipedia in some sense - a vast ressource which accumulates information from other places and re-publishes it. Some of the information is extremely well researched, some is based on only a few sources. AFAIK once one goes into the depths of the database thse differences in the evidence base become more obvious. And i think this is fair enough. User:Refdoc 00:35, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC) I agree with Refdoc's assessment - except for one crucial point: the Ethnologue only corrects mistakes at multi-year intervals when new editions come out, and is much less responsive. Why not add a new section to this article - Ethnologue errors? With suitable sourcing, it could become a useful resource not only for linguists online but for the Ethnologue editors themselves. - User:Mustafaa 23:43, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC) :Yes, DO IT. People are too quick to cite Ethnologue as the great authority on lingusitics. It IS useful, but its shortcomings need pointing out. One error I noticed today is that under "languages of Germany" they list Plautdietsch, which of course is not spoken in Germany; they obviously are confusing Plautdietsch and Plattdeutsch.--User:Doric Loon 06:23, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Dialects== Would it be worth pointing out that the reason why Ethnologue lists more languages than other such catalogues (hence the approving phrase "most comprehensive" in the article) is that they also list dialects without making any distinction? I don't mean that as a criticism of Ethnologue - the distinction between a language and a dialect is complicated (see discussion of dialect) and ignoring it may be the best solution. Nonetheless, the reader should be aware of this. As an example, look at Ethnologue's list of languages of Germany, which includes, in addition to "German, Standard", the following dialects: Bavarian, Allemanic, Kölsch, Mainfränkisch, Luxembourgeois, Pfälzisch, Lower and Upper Saxon, Swabian and Westphalian, which no-one has ever claimed to be separate languages. What is slightly irritating, though (I'm allowed to be POV on the discussion page) is that this is not followed through consistently - the list of languages of Britain does not include such dialects as Yorkshire or Lancashire English. --User:Doric Loon 06:23, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC) :It might be worthwile to point this out on a per case basis, but my experience with Ethnologue regarding African languages is a little more favorable. I say 'a little more', because some subbranches are a mess; most of the Khoi-San branch for example (but then that's one of the areas in African linguistics were people seem to have tried to introduce as many alternate names per language as possible). In general, I don't have the feeling that they just treat every dialect a separate language; usually there is a list of 'dialects' at the main language page. :As for [http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=GRN Plautdietsch], they ''do'' list it as a language spoken mainly in Canada. The possible 90 000 speakers ''in Germany'' recorded in "1996 Reuben Epp." cause it to be listed at the [http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Germany Germany] page. User:Mark Dingemanse— User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 07:58, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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''Ethnologue: Languages of the World'' is a web and print publication of SIL International (formerly known as the Summer Institute of Linguistics), a Christianity linguistic service organization which studies lesser-known languages primarily to provide the speakers with native language biblical texts. The Ethnologue contains statistics for 6,912 languages in the 15th edition, released in 2005 (up from 6,809 in the 14th edition, released 2000) and gives the number of speakers, location, dialects, linguistic affiliations, availability of the Bible, etc. It is currently the most comprehensive existing language inventory, along with the [http://www.linguasphere.net/ Linguasphere Register]. What counts as a language depends on socio-linguistic evaluation: see Dialect. The Ethnologue provides a three-Latin alphabet code, called SIL code, for each language it describes. The number of SIL codes significantly exceeds those of ISO 639-1 and RFC 3066. In the 15th edition they have synchronised the SIL codes with ISO 639-3. The NPOV of Ethnologue as a scientific institution is sometimes disputed, particularly in areas of language classification associated with the Bible and Abrahamic religion. In addition to choosing a primary name for the language, it also gives some of the names by which a language is called by its speakers, by the government, by foreigners, by neighbors, etc., and how it has been named and referenced historically, regardless of which designation is considered official, politically correct, or offensive, or by whom. This selection of "alternative names" is extensive, but often incomplete. As is inevitable in an enterprise so enormous, the Ethnologue contains some errors, some of which it fixes at every edition; for instance, en route to the 14th edition, some languages such as Chenoua language were added, and some rumoured "languages" such as Nemadi language or Wutana language were removed. Some possible remaining errors are discussed at Imraguen language, Senhaja de Srair language, Ghomara language, Kwavi language, Molengue language, Yauma language, Fer language, Yeni language, Hwla language, and Ofayé. ==See also== *Language *List of languages ==External link== *[http://www.ethnologue.com/ Web version of "The Ethnologue" at ETHNOLOGUE .com] Linguistics
Ethnologue
==advertisement== This reads more like an advertisement than an encyclopedia article. Does it really belong here? Should it be deleted? user:-- April, 7 Mar 2002 Agreed on deleting. --user:Rgamble I disagree. Google found [http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&num=10&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=Ethnologue%3A+Languages+of+the+World+&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=off 17,400] hits. The article does need some work though.... --user:maveric149 Well, I look at it like this... Effectively the article is about a product that people aren't going to know about unless they see the website. In which case they won't learn anything else here... I'm not sure what else can be said about the site as an article except what it does... and that's an advertisement. Perhaps I'm wrong, but if someone can make a real article out of it, I won't complain. ;) user:Rgamble ps: Really hope that made sense. Brain's shutting down. ---- Here is the "article" The ''Ethnologue: Languages of the World'' is a web/print publication of SIL International, which describes itself as an educational charity and a christian volunteer organisation. They claim that it contains statistics for 6,809 languages (2000 edition) which describes the number of speakers, location, dialects, linguistic affiliations, availability of the Bible, etc. Most likely the copying permissions are not sufficiently liberal to allow use of the data in Wikipedia. The web version is available at http://www.ethnologue.com/. This is clearly not an encyclopedia article; the fact that it gets a lot of hits in google doesn't sound compelling to me. I have two suggestions, to those interested: 1) at whatever time this can be developed into an encyclopedia article -- although what an article about what is effectively a store wouldbe, I don't know -- it can be restored. 2) in the meantime, it certainly does seem appropriate to put the link to this website into other articles, perhaps language, linguistics, missionary organizations, indigenous people. SIL certainly would deserve its own article, although I am not prepared to write it. Without a doubt, SIL has played a vital role in transforming indigenous languages from oral to written forms, and thus, arguably, plays a role in preserving them. But as a US based missionary group, its influence on indigenous societies and its relationship with other governments is complex; David Stohl has written about this and I know there are others (I think there is a book called ''God is an American'' or something like that, check out Cultural Survival and IWGIA. So an article on SIL would be very interesting. In the meantime, the link may be useful to those who study language and linguistics -- why not just put it there? :User:Slrubenstein The Ethnologue certainly does deserve an article; it is a vital part of the debate about what to supplant the ISO 639 codes with, and is a very well-known reference among linguists. You almost might as well not have an article about Unicode! As a credible effort to provide an alternative to the Ethnologue, Linguasphere may deserve its own article as well, if anyone can be bothered (I can't at the moment.) User:Mustafaa 22:20, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) ----- It might be an opportune moment to remind folks that Wikipedia:Deletion policy is that deletion is for irredeemable articles; articles which would be useful once repaired should be listed under Wikipedia:Cleanup. In any case, this article is now much improved. I am puzzled that several people have objected to this being an article "about a store" or "about a product". They do sell ''some'' stuff on that website (mainly hard copies of stuff available free as soft copy) but most of it (hundreds of megs of data) is freely available for non-commercial use and some of it is freely available for any use. Their [http://www.ethnologue.com/policies.asp policies] give fairly liberal rights to non-commercial users, but commerical users must seek permission for most stuff; this would be incompatible with the GFDL. Still maybe it's worth someone contacting them to ask since they do leave open what permissions might be granted. Also, the SIL codes are available free for everyone, along with their SIL/ISO mapping tables. As the search results for these codes are also made freely available (for display that is, not copying), would it be useful & GFDL acceptable to include links like this "SIL code: [http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=ABC ABC]" in language articles? (And as an aside, they also offer a few [http://www.sil.org/computing/catalog/show_software_catalog.asp?by=cat&name=Font free fonts] which might be useful to authors of linguistics articles, plus a huge searchable bibliography which may be useful in researching articles. User:Securiger 17:08, 17 May 2004 (UTC) == suggesting a change == In the current version of the article it states that SIL is a "...service organization which studies lesser-known languages to provide missionaries for their speakers." I believe it is incorrect to say that SIL studies that languages in order to 'provide missionaries'. SIL educates and provides resources for people (call them linguists or missionaries, or linguistically trained missionaries) who are trained to create writing systems and then translations of biblical texts in languages where there was previously no bible/biblical texts. As a byproduct of this goal of creating bibles in native languages, SIL and its trainees have created the first linguistic documentation of many previously unstudied, or understudied languages. Some of their material (such as the ethnologue) is useful to academic linguists as well. Point being, I guess, that I want to change this sentence "...study...languages to provide missionaries" to something like: "SIL...studies lesser-known languages primarily to provide the speakers with native language biblical texts." what do you think? -JD : I agree. - User:Mustafaa 19:42, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC) Then let us do it... User:Refdoc 23:49, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) looks good, thanks for doing that -JD User:Hospitalhill ==Errors== The follow sentence looks like a heavy understatement: ''As is inevitable in an enterprise so enormous, the Ethnologue contains some errors'' Unfortunately, the errors in Ethnologue are so common and so significant that its use as a reliable source could be questioned. The errors are not limited to small languages, even rather large languages are given incorrect descriptions ''[above comment posted by 62.78.185.120 20:45, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)]'' :Can you cite some actual examples of this kind of grave errors? User:Mark Dingemanse— User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 20:51, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC) :: Thank you for your comment Mark, I should of course have included some examples. Here is a short list, focused on the languages I know best. -Scottish Gaelic: The number of speakers is based on the census in 1971. There is one census every 10th year in the UK; census results from 1981, 1991 and 2001 are availablde and should of course be used. Not having the newest information is not a big deal, but using information that is 35 years old definitely is. Even worse, the only dialect listed for Scottish Gaelic is East Sutherland Gaelic. That dialect is a very marginal and almost extinct one, and all the major dialects are completely ignored. -Irish Gaelic: Once again, a very old census is cited and the number given is not even close to the real number of Irish speakers. There are three main dialects of Irish: Ulster, Connacht and Munster. Ethnologue suggests two more, Leinster and Donegal. Donegal Irish is the same as Ulster Irish whereas Irish died out in Leinster in the 19th century. -Welsh: Once more, a 35 year old census. -Swedish: The spelling of some of the dialects is almost beyond recognition. It claims that Gutniska is a separate language, a claim I haven't seen anywhere else and certainly not in Scandinavian linguistics. The claim that 'proper' Swedish is spoken in Svealand (alone) is unique to Ethnologue and lacks any foundation in reality. Some dialects described are actually the same dialect but with different names. -Serbo-Croatian: It is said to be a language of Yugoslavia. No country has been called Yugoslavia for some years now. Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian all link to the Serbo-Croatian page and that can be defended on a linguistic basis. What cannot be defended is the information that this language is spoken in "Yugoslavia and Macedonia". What happened to Croatia and Bosnia? The dialects are mixed up. First they are called CHAKAVIAN, KAJKAVIAN, STOKAVIAN, then they are called KAYKAVSKI, CHAKAVSKI, SHTOKAVSKI. Someone not knowing the language might think these are different dialects. The Macedonian minority in Bosnia that Ethnologue has discovered would be unknown both to Bosnians and to Macedonians. I picked these languages because they are the ones I know best. It would be very strange indeed if only the language I speak are exactly the ones that Ethnologue makes serious mistakes in describing. I would expect to find about the same kinds of errors in other languages as well, although I'm not capable to detect mistakes in languages such as (random pick) Quechua, Romanian, Persian or Japanese. :This is very interesting. I get the impression that the Ethnologue devotes little attention to (minor) languages of the Western World. My experience with their treatment of African languages (the errors pointed out in the article aside) is that it is in general relatively reliable as a supplemental source. As a rule, I always try to look up more authoritative sources. User:Mark Dingemanse— User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 09:57, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC) Ethnologue is a bit like Wikipedia in some sense - a vast ressource which accumulates information from other places and re-publishes it. Some of the information is extremely well researched, some is based on only a few sources. AFAIK once one goes into the depths of the database thse differences in the evidence base become more obvious. And i think this is fair enough. User:Refdoc 00:35, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC) I agree with Refdoc's assessment - except for one crucial point: the Ethnologue only corrects mistakes at multi-year intervals when new editions come out, and is much less responsive. Why not add a new section to this article - Ethnologue errors? With suitable sourcing, it could become a useful resource not only for linguists online but for the Ethnologue editors themselves. - User:Mustafaa 23:43, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC) :Yes, DO IT. People are too quick to cite Ethnologue as the great authority on lingusitics. It IS useful, but its shortcomings need pointing out. One error I noticed today is that under "languages of Germany" they list Plautdietsch, which of course is not spoken in Germany; they obviously are confusing Plautdietsch and Plattdeutsch.--User:Doric Loon 06:23, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Dialects== Would it be worth pointing out that the reason why Ethnologue lists more languages than other such catalogues (hence the approving phrase "most comprehensive" in the article) is that they also list dialects without making any distinction? I don't mean that as a criticism of Ethnologue - the distinction between a language and a dialect is complicated (see discussion of dialect) and ignoring it may be the best solution. Nonetheless, the reader should be aware of this. As an example, look at Ethnologue's list of languages of Germany, which includes, in addition to "German, Standard", the following dialects: Bavarian, Allemanic, Kölsch, Mainfränkisch, Luxembourgeois, Pfälzisch, Lower and Upper Saxon, Swabian and Westphalian, which no-one has ever claimed to be separate languages. What is slightly irritating, though (I'm allowed to be POV on the discussion page) is that this is not followed through consistently - the list of languages of Britain does not include such dialects as Yorkshire or Lancashire English. --User:Doric Loon 06:23, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC) :It might be worthwile to point this out on a per case basis, but my experience with Ethnologue regarding African languages is a little more favorable. I say 'a little more', because some subbranches are a mess; most of the Khoi-San branch for example (but then that's one of the areas in African linguistics were people seem to have tried to introduce as many alternate names per language as possible). In general, I don't have the feeling that they just treat every dialect a separate language; usually there is a list of 'dialects' at the main language page. :As for [http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=GRN Plautdietsch], they ''do'' list it as a language spoken mainly in Canada. The possible 90 000 speakers ''in Germany'' recorded in "1996 Reuben Epp." cause it to be listed at the [http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Germany Germany] page. User:Mark Dingemanse— User:Mark Dingemanse User Talk:Mark Dingemanse 07:58, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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