
Ethel Greenglass Rosenberg (1915-1953) and Julius Rosenberg (1918-1953) were United States Communism who were thrust into the world spotlight when they were tried, convicted, and executed for spying for the Soviet Union. The accuracy of these charges remains controversial, though decades later, Soviet communications decrypted by the VENONA project became publicly available and appeared to indicate that at least Julius Rosenberg was actively involved in espionage (although they provided no new evidence that he performed the specific acts of espionage for which he was convicted). Specifically, the couple were charged with conspiracy to commit espionage and were accused of passing nuclear weapons secrets to Russian agents. ==Background== Julius Rosenberg was born on May 12, 1918 in New York. He graduated from the City College of New York with a degree in electrical engineering in 1939 and in 1940 joined the Army Signal Corps where he worked on radar equipment. He became a leader in the Young Communist League, where he met Ethel in 1936, before marrying Ethel three years later. Ethel Rosenberg was born on September 28, 1915 in New York. She was an aspiring actress and singer, but eventually took a secretary job at a shipping company. She became involved in labor disputes and joined the Young Communist League, where she first met Julius. The Rosenbergs had two sons. During World War II, the USSR and the USA were allies in war, but the USA was highly suspicious of Joseph Stalin's intentions. As such, the Americans did not share information or seek assistance from the Soviet Union for the Manhattan Project. The Soviets were aware of the project as a result of espionage penetration of the US government, however, and had made a number of attempts to infiltrate its operations at the University of California, Berkeley. A number of project members — some high-profile, others lower in rank — did voluntarily give secret information to Russian agents, many because they were sympathetic to communism (or the Soviet Union's role in the War) and did not feel that the USA should have a monopoly on atomic weapons. After the war, the US resisted efforts to share nuclear secrets, but the Soviet Union was able to produce its own atomic weapons by 1949. Their first nuclear test, "Joe 1", shocked the West in the speed it was produced. It was discovered in January 1950 that Klaus Fuchs, a German refugee theoretical physicist working for the British mission in the Manhattan Project, had given key documents to the Russians throughout the war. Through Fuchs' confession, US and UK intelligence agents were able to find his "courier", Harry Gold, who was arrested on May 23, 1950. A former machinist at the top-secret Los Alamos National Laboratory, Sgt. David Greenglass, confessed to having passed secret information on to the USSR through Gold as well. He testified that his sister, Ethel Rosenberg, and her husband, Julius, had also passed secrets. Another accused conspirator, Morton Sobell, fled to Mexico City, but was later deported to the United States for trial. ==Trial and conviction== The case against the Rosenbergs, and Sobell, began on March 6, 1951. The prosecution's primary witness, David Greenglass, stated that his sister Ethel, working as a "probationer" (in Soviet parlance), had typed notes containing US nuclear secrets, and these were later turned over to Harry Gold, who would then turn them over to Anatoly A. Yakovlev, the Soviet vice consul in New York City. From the beginning, the trial attracted a high amount of media attention, and like the trial of Alger Hiss, generated a largely polarized response from observers, some of whom believed the Rosenbergs to be clearly guilty, and others who asserted their innocence. As the notes typed by Ethel apparently contained little that was new to the Soviets, supporters felt that a death penalty charge of espionage was not only far too severe, but scarcely could be considered evidence of wrong-doing at all; but for the prosecution this was sufficient evidence to convict Ethel Rosenberg. It is believed that part of the reason Ethel was indicted in addition to Julius was so that the prosecution could use her as a 'lever' to pressure Julius into giving up the names of others who were involved. If that was the case, it didn't work. On the witness stand Julius asserted his right under the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution to not incriminate himself whenever asked about his involvement in the Communist Party or with its members. Ethel did similarly. Neither defendant was viewed sympathetically by the jury. Investigations into the couple's history revealed conflicting evidence that Julius Rosenberg may have had some dealings with an NKVD agent. Since the end of the Cold War, the Russian government has released documentation that shows Julius Rosenberg was providing information to the NKVD. Julius Rosenberg's main contact was Alexander Feklisov, who met Julius on over 50 occasions over a three year period beginning in 1943. Mr. Feklisov said that, though Julius had provided military secrets, he was never able to provide any information of substance concerning the atomic bomb. Mr. Feklisov also asserted that Ethel Rosenberg was not involved in any spying. Before he died, Theodore Hall, who moved to the UK from the US partly because of an FBI investigation of him in the 1950s, claimed that it was he, a scientist working at Los Alamos, who gave atomic information to the USSR, not anyone else such as Ethel Rosenberg, a housewife living in a poor (the Lower East Side) New York neighborhood. The role played by Assistant United States Attorney Roy Cohn, the prosecutor in the case, is controversial, since Cohn stated in his autobiography that he influenced the selection of the judge, and pushed him to impose the death penalty on both Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. ==Execution== The Rosenbergs were convicted on March 29, 1951 and sentenced to death by judge Irving Kaufman on April 5. The conviction helped to fuel Senator Joseph McCarthy's anti-Communist crusade against "anti-American activities" by US citizens. While their devotion to the Communist cause was well documented, they denied the spying charges even as they faced the electric chair. Their defenders said they never stood the chance of a fair trial given the anti-Communist Red Scare that pervaded the United States in the 1950s. The couple were the only two American civilians to be executed for espionage-related activity during the Cold War. In imposing the death penalty, Judge Kaufman noted that he held them responsible not only for espionage but also for the deaths of the Korean War: :''I believe your conduct in putting into the hands of the Russians the A-bomb [...] has already caused, in my opinion, the Communist aggression in Korea, with the resultant casualties exceeding 50,000 and who knows but that millions more of innocent people may pay the price of your treason.'' Their case has been at the center of the controversy over communism in the United States ever since, with supporters steadfastly maintaining that their conviction was an egregious example of persecution typical of the "hysteria" of those times (see Red Scare, McCarthyism) and likening it to the witch hunts that marred Salem witch trials and medieval Europe. To the very end, the couple denied all charges and insisted they were innocent, but they were executed at New York's Sing Sing in 1953, despite protests in the United States and abroad. The Rosenbergs were convicted under the Espionage Act of 1917 of "conspiring to commit espionage in wartime" and sentenced to death, despite the fact that the US was not at war with the Soviet Union at the time their ring was supposedly active.[http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/rosenb/ROS_CT4.HTM] At the time, some Americans believed both Rosenbergs were innocent or received too harsh a punishment, and a grass-roots campaign was started to try to stop the couple's execution. Other Americans felt that the couple got what they deserved. Pope Pius XII appealed to President Dwight D. Eisenhower to spare the couple, but he refused on February 11, 1953 and all other appeals were also unsuccessful. The couple were executed by the electric chair on June 19, 1953. Reports of the execution state that Julius died after the first application of electricity, but Ethel did not succumb immediately and was subjected to two more electrical charges before being pronounced dead. The chair was designed for a man, and Ethel Rosenberg was a petite woman; this discrepancy resulted, it is claimed, in the electrodes fitting poorly. ==Posthumous revelations== In 1995, the National Security Agency publicly released documents from the VENONA project, an effort to decrypt intercepted communications between Soviet agents and the NKVD/KGB. A 1944 cable from New York to Moscow makes it clear that Julius Rosenberg was engaged in espionage, though the importance of their effort is not clear, particularly considering that the Soviets were receiving information on the Atomic bomb from Klaus Fuchs and Donald Duart Maclean. Ethel's involvement is not clear from the VENONA transcripts. A document from November 27, 1944 [http://www.cia.gov/csi/books/venona/b73.gif] specifically about Ethel lists her as a "fellowcountryman" and claims that she was aware of Julius' work, and asks for advice in whether she should be "used" or not. Ethel was apparently never assigned a code name — Julius was always referred to as "ANTENNA" or "LIBERAL" — which has cast doubt onto her significance and involvement. In his posthumous memoirs, published in 1990, Nikita Khrushchev praised the pair for their "very significant help in accelerating the production of our atomic bomb." Whether this was in fact the case, however, has been disputed. [http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/16/rosenbergs/] The quality of the information given to the Soviets, as reported by Greenglass, was also quite poor in comparison to the information given by Fuchs, who had a much more intimate understanding of the research being done, as revealed by records of Fuchs' detailed transmissions in the now-opened Soviet archives. David Greenglass was spared execution in exchange for his testimony. He spent 10 years in prison and was released in 1960, and has lived under an assumed name since his release. Decades later, in late 2001, Greenglass admitted that he had committed perjury and falsely implicated his sister Ethel. Greenglass said he chose to turn in his sister in order to protect his wife and children. ==Controversy== From the beginning of their trial through the present, the Rosenberg case has been a controversial issue, with individual opinions falling roughly among ideological lines. In learned circles, there are a number of points of contention which still hold, even after the revelation of many hundreds of pages of previously secret evidence. *To what extent was Ethel involved? As noted above, there seem to be reasons to believe that while Julius was likely involved in some form of espionage, his wife Ethel may have not been, or not to the extent to which she was convicted. The VENONA transcripts are ambiguous as to Ethel's involvement, and the government case against her seems to have rested only on the testimony of her brother, David Greenglass, who later apparently told reporters that he had perjured himself in order to lessen his own sentence and to help his wife avoid jail time. [http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1P1:48637841&dtype=0~0&dinst=&author=RICHARD%20PYLE%2C%20Associated%20Press%20Writer&title=Infamous%20spy%20Ethel%20Rosenberg%27s%20brother%20admits%20lying%20under%20oath%20to%20save%20himself&date=12/05/2001&refid=ency_botnm] *Were they given a fair trial? There are many critics who have alleged that the political climate of the time, and the seemingly a priori conviction by Judge Kaufman of the pair's guilt, would have made it impossible for the Rosenbergs to have had a fair trial by an impartial jury. The Rosenberg lawyer, Emanuel Bloch, also made a number of massive legal blunders (such as not cross-examining Harry Gold, who in later trials was found to be highly unreliable) suggesting either his incompetence or inability to cope with such a high-profile trial. *Was their sentence fair? The imposition of the death sentence upon the Rosenbergs has been the most controversial aspect of the case, as they were sentenced far more harshly than any other "atomic spies," primarily because they refused to confess to their alleged crimes. Klaus Fuchs, who spied for many more years than the Rosenbergs were alleged to and gave far more sensitive information to the Soviet Union, was only sentenced to 14 years in jail by comparison, in part because he cooperated with authorities and because the Soviet Union was an ally of the United States and the United Kingdom at the time he passed on information. This latter point—whether the alleged Rosenberg espionage in 1945 should be held to the international politics of 1950—is one of special contention, as some critics (the Rosenbergs' sons, in particular) have argued that the Rosenbergs were not trying to undermine the United States when they gave the USSR classified information, but rather trying to help the USSR fight against a greater enemy, Nazi Germany. In 1950, though, this distinction was not made by the U.S. judge or jury, who saw their espionage in the context of the Cold War, Judge Kaufman going so far as to blame the couple for the Korean War. *Did they actually help the Russian program? Recent scholarship has suggested that Greenglass and the Rosenbergs actually knew very little about the workings of the atomic weapons aside from basic concepts that the Russians had already acquired through other espionage sources anyway (or would have likely figured out fairly quickly on their own once their atomic bomb project was put into full production), and compared to the information given by Fuchs and Theodore Hall, it is unlikely that the Rosenberg/Greenglass data would have significantly aided the Soviet project. Even the detailed information given by Fuchs and Hall seems to have only marginally sped up the Soviet project, as it was heavily distrusted by project leader Lavrenty Beria. This, of course, is a question not necessarily related to their guilt or sentencing. ==The Rosenbergs' children== The Rosenbergs' two sons, Robert Meeropol and Michael Meeropol, were orphaned by the execution, and no relatives dared adopt them for fear of ostracism or worse. They were finally adopted by the songwriters Ann and Abel Meeropol. Abel Meeropol wrote the classic anti-lynching anthem "Strange Fruit" made famous by singer Billie Holiday. Robert and Michael co-wrote a book about the experience, ''We are your sons: The legacy of Ethel and Julius Rosenberg'' (1975), and Robert wrote another book in 2004, ''An execution in the family: One son's journey''. In 1990, Robert founded the Rosenberg Fund for Children, a non-profit foundation which provides support for children whose parents are Progressivism activists involved in court cases. ==See also== *Soviet atomic bomb project. * Tony Kushner's play ''Angels in America'' features a fictionalized version of Ethel Rosenberg, played by Meryl Streep in the HBO version. * The case is thought to have spurred Lee Harvey Oswald's interest in Marxism. [http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100wholho.html] * ''The Book of Daniel (novel)'', a 1971 novel by E. L. Doctorow, is loosely based on the Rosenberg case. ==External links== * [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/rosenb/ROS_TIME.HTM Timeline of Events Relating to the Rosenberg Trial.] * [http://english.pravda.ru/world/2001/12/06/23023.html Ethel's brother says he trumped up evidence.] * [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/intercepts.html Project Venona messages.] * [http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/roberg.htm Rosenberg FBI files] (summary only) * [http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/heir/ Heir to an Execution] — An HBO documentary by Ivy Meeropol, the grandaughter of Ethel and Julius. * [http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/meeropol-on-rosenbergs.html A statement by the Rosenberg's sons in support of their exhonoration] * [http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/robertmeeropol/ An Interview with Robert Meeropol about the adoption] 1915 births 1953 deaths Soviet spies Cold War spies Cold War people Causes célèbres U.S. history of anti-Communism
''An event mentioned in this article is a Template:June 19 selected anniversaries'' ------- I admit the details of the execution are rather grisly, even though they are brief. However, the gory details of the Rosenbergs' execution is one of the major elements of their story -- two possibly innocent civilians being executed by one of the most heinous and inhuman methods available. Please decide whether the execution details should be included in the article. -- User:Modemac Suggestion for further research: I recall reading something about the opening of Soviet archives, and there being some information regarding the Rosenbergs' execution/crimes. I've also read that Julius took 3 tries & Ethel 5 - but I don't have a good source on that. And did you mention that they left behind 2 young sons? ~ender 2003-04-02 23:45 MST == Speech == Hello. I am a student, and I am writing a speech on this topic for my English Class. I found it to be very sad, interesting, and educational; that is why I chose it to be my topic. I think that your site has helped me immensely, and I thank you for all the wonderful information that you provided me with. I just wanted to notify you and give you my thanks. ==Nikita Khrushchev== The article says ''Nikita Khrushchev praised the pair in his 1990 memoirs when he wrote of their "very significant help in accelerating the production of our atomic bomb".'' how's that when Khrushchev died in 1971? :It does seem amazingly prescient, doesn't it? But "Khruschev Remembers" was transcribed from Khruschev's tapes and published in at least two volumes: I can't quite track the bibliographic records just now but it seems that Little, Brown either published or republished the last of these around 1990. I'm not sure if that's the explanation. - User:Nunh-huh 03:36, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC) == Disputed == We say in our lead that "the Rosenbergs were indeed guilty of espionage". I am more than passingly familiar with the case, and while it seems to me to be very likely that Julius engaged in espionage (although less clear whether he passed on any important information), I've seen almost nothing to suggest any such involvement by Ethel, and quite a bit to the contrary (much of it in our article). This seems to me to qualify as a factual dispute, so rather than edit, I am slapping on a "disputed" tag and giving 72 hours for someone to back that up with a citation before I edit. -- User:Jmabel 23:01, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC) :I agree... all the available evidence seems to indicate that Ethel was innocent except insofar as she was Julius' wife. I say just fix it, forget the disputed tag... it was probably just an oversight. User:Graft 13:37, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC) :I'll give someone another day or so to find a citation, then I'll do just that. -- User:Jmabel 18:24, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC) :: Remember, Ethel was not convivted of espionage, but conspiracy to commit espionage. The difference may seem subtle, but it has a whole other legal definition. It is much easier to convict someone of conspiracy to (fill in the blank), because you do not have to show that the individual knew a crime was bieng commited, or that they had an active part in the crime itself. ::Just food for thought. User:TDC 07:59, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC) :::However, the case in point is not what the courts found, but what the actual truth is. User:Graft 11:47, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC) :::Remember that the statement in our lead is not that she was "indeed guilty" of conspiracy, but of espionage. And I have yet to see a single citation for that. TDC, you seem (in effect) to be agreeing with that. -- User:Jmabel 18:42, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC) It's been a while and there's been no citation, so I'm amending the lead and removing the disputed tag. User:Hob←User:Hob 17:20, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC) : Agreed, but since I'm the one who raised the dispute, you should not have removed the tag before I said that your edit meets my objection (it does, so no big deal). -- User:Jmabel 17:59, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC) I removed "also" of this sentence: "particularly considering that the Soviets were ''also'' receiving information on the Atomic bomb from Klaus Fuchs and Donald Maclean." With that "also" you admit Julius Rosember was actually giving information on the Atomic bomb to the Soviets. That is disputed. -- User:Nexus 17:59, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC) ==LITERATURE== Just a note: for anyone interested in a literary research on this case, read E.L. Doctorow's "The Book of Daniel", where he tells the story of Daniel, the son of Rochelle and Paul Isaacson, a couple accused of espionage and executes in Sing Sing in 1954... (Italian user) : Though highly fictionalized, in ways that Robert Meeropol has been unhappy with. In particular, he feels that he and his brother were much better treated by the CP than the book suggests. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 21:54, Jan 9, 2005 (UTC) ==Things missing== Things missing from this article which ought to be worked in include: *It was the capture of Klaus Fuchs which lead to Harry Gold which lead to David Greenglass which lead to the Rosenbergs. Fuchs shouldn't be only mentioned at the end of the article as a bit player, he's half the story, and certainly responsible for the context. *The assistant prosecutor in this case was none other than Roy Cohn, later side-man of Joseph McCarthy. This deserves some note. *The Rosenbergs were not the only defendents at the trial; there was a third: Morton Sobell, who was not executed. *The specific information Julius Rosenberg was supposed to have passed on included: lens molds, implosion diagrams, the proximity fuze, and information about a speculative space platform which would have sat between the earth and the moon (no joke!). Just a suggestion, for those who have a little time to burn... --User:Fastfission 23:46, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC) == Ethel Rosenberg's involvement. == According to a book entitled Venona: Decoding Soviet Espionage in America the Venona messages made it quite clear that Ethel not only knew her husband was a spy but that she also assisted and recruited her brother and sister-in-law. A whole lot of other people should have been tried for passing on information and spying too. I'm tired of people making out that these American Communists were some sort of victims, they were working for a foreign dictatorship known as the Soviet Union. Why do people want to make heroes out of all the American CP members is beyond me! User:Pitchka 22:30, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC) :I think the answer to your question is revealed by Julius' codename: "LIBERAL".:05:06, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC) :Well, the Venona information is somewhat suspicious and there is no clear account of Ethel's involvement or not among scholars. As to why people felt/feel the way they do, that's a historical question; if you look into the history of it, it becomes more clear. One of the reasons is that the US government did convict them with a fairly weak case and gave them extremely harsh sentences (no other convicted spy, even those who did give dramatically more important information to the USSR, was ever sentenced to death; especially not for helping a country which, at the time they were spying, was an Allied power), which certainly didn't help. (I am ambivalent as to the overall guilt, by the way) --User:Fastfission 02:13, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Pitchka, you can find books that make almost any imaginable claim about this case. The issue is to find ones that are scholarly, reputable, and weren't rapidly demolished by other scholars who reviewed them. :I've been following the discussion of the Venona documents, although not super closely. You give a book title, but it might be more useful to name authors. Whose book is this? That would make it easier to track down what others have had to say about its scholarship... -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 21:19, Jan 16, 2005 (UTC) ::Sure, here is a link to the book, [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0300084625/qid=1105930922/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-8865170-8761537 Venona]. User:Pitchka 03:05, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC) :::For a review of that from the opposite camp, see this [http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=19990705&c=1&s=schneir review from ''The Nation'']. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 06:44, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC) ::::I'm sure there are lots of articles like this one, people don't like their philosphies or their beliefs to be refuted no matter how strong the evidence. Sacco and Venzetti is a perfect example, no matter how many times the evidence proves their guilt people will say oh, no they didn't do it because that was the popular "word" that was being put out. Members of my own family were members of the Communist Party and they were out putting the word out that trying to save the Rosenbergs, of course they were. Documents from the Soviet Archives in Russia were also used to compile the book. I expect there will be lots of defenders of the Rosenbergs and people like them for years to come, but the truth of the matter is they were spys and the United States Communist Party were getting their marching orders directly from Moscow. Hitler and Stalin are no different in my book. But I'd be called a red-baiter by some because I assert that Ethel and Julius were spies. User:Pitchka 02:26, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC) :::Pitchka, you seem to misunderstand the main historical disputes about the Rosenbergs. It is generally thought that Julius certainly passed information on to the USSR, but it is not as clear about Ethel. Aside from this, there is a question of whether their trial was fair and whether their punishments were worthy of their accused crimes. Related to that is the question of whether their data was really of any use: compared to the data given by Fuchs and Hall, it was practically worthless (Greenglass knew very little about the bomb). Aside from even that, there is the question of whether their work for the USSR was ''to help to USSR against the USA'' or if it was ''to help the USSR against the Nazis'', which are different questions (a motivational ambiguity not present in American law but represented in British law; because Klaus Fuchs gave information to another Allie he was given the relatively light sentence of 14 years, whatever the later history had the USSR become). I think you'd do good to try and see what other people are saying rather than just wildly characterizing everyone who disagrees with you as a dupe. --User:Fastfission 03:07, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::::You are right, I can't believe that so many people are dupes! I can't believe that all these USCP members didn't realize that Stalin was a mass murderer and they were working for the benefit of mother Russia. I can't believe that my aunt and uncle didn't know who they were working for. They were rather intelligent people. You are absolutely right the vast majority of people who talk about Ethel and Julius as vitims are not dupes but propagandists trying to still fight for their cause. Many of these people are Liberals, Socialists, Communists, Democrats, and Europeans. That makes these people not dupes but just plain evil. Thanks for the clarification. Julius and Ethel were Communist spies and they deserved what they got. This sympathy for them is not from dupes but from like minded people. User:Pitchka 18:12, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC) :::::Ah, nothing shows a cooperative attitude like sticking your later response before my earlier one... -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 20:30, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC) ::::::Well, cheerleader, I started this post firstly, and secondly Fastfission begins his paragraph by directly refering to me. Your remark is nothing but a congratulatory remark! But feel free to stick it anywhere you'd like however. User:Pitchka 20:43, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC) ::::Thank you, FastFusion, right on the mark. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 07:14, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC) ::::Take your biased ramblings elsewhere, Pitchka, we are interested in facts, not political rants. User:68.96.57.173 == Judge's speech == Can someone verify the grammatical accuracy of the judge's speech? It is currently quite confusing. (amon April 29, 2005) == Venona == The November 14 document has this: "Direction of probationers will be continued through LIBERAL"; [http://history.acusd.edu/gen/text/coldwar/14_Nov_1944_R1.GIF] Ethel was one of the "probationers", i.e., LIBERAL was her case officers. The November 27 document was a response to Moscows' inquiry about a new probationer not directly being supervised by an MGB officer. This same evidence, (though not from Venona source) was used by both the prosecution and jury. User:Nobs 21:54, 27 May 2005 (UTC) :I don't find the Nov 14 to be an explicit reference to Ethel at all -- it only is if you make assumptions about her involvement in the first place, which is begging the question that the document was cited to answer (whether she had participated). --User:Fastfission 20:36, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Confession & Commutation== I note that NOBS doesn't believe there is any evidence that the Rosenbergs were induced to confess and 'name names' by the prospect of commutation to life imprisonment. But Doctorow writing in the late 60s (his Book of Daniel was published in 1971) gives this detail, so the story must have been current back then. User:Linuxlad 13:02, 30 May 2005 (UTC) :''Book of Daniel'' is a work of fiction, I'm not sure it is the best source to use. --User:Fastfission 20:37, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) But of course I'm aware of this :-) Nonetheless, Doctorow is writing with ideas that were current at the time so the idea that they were offered commutation in exchange for info. is not _just_ an idle speculation. User:Linuxlad 21:56, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) :: Not being a lawyer, it is my layman's understanding that a guilty plea in any capital crime always spare's the life of the accused. And I can develope the sources that said a guilty plea would have spared them (for now, see Haynes & Klehr, it is not unsymapathetic to the Rosenbergs execution, basically says they were something of the public patsies & fall guys for the larger coverup of conspiracy that took place and was not revealed til Venona. Also, Venona probably couldn't have been used against them because of "hearsay" etc)User:Nobs01 02:01, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC) :::Your "layman's understanding" is simply wrong. A guilty plea will not inherently stave off capital punishment. What ''is'' common in the U.S. is the explicit "plea bargain" by which prosecution and defense agree to skip a trial, with the defendant pleading guilty in exchange for a reduced sentence. But these require a specific negotiation in each instance. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 05:07, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC) ::Evidently a plea bargain was negotiated then. I came accross reference to it in ''passim''; this article however is not my main focus at the moment so I havent been able to follow up and corroborate it. There may have even been a reference to someone pleading with Ethel to cop the plea for the sake of the children and she refused, thinking the Communist Party would look after the children. User:Nobs01 05:45, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC) :::I was under the impression -- from Radosh and Milton's ''The Rosenberg File'', I think -- that the point of trying to give Ethel the death penalty was to induce a guilty plea in ''Julius'' (that is, if Julius pleaded, then they would spare Ethel's life). I believe he cites memos from Saypol to this effect. In any event, I am pretty sure there is hard evidence that the death penalties were seen as both sending powerful messages and hopefully getting them to talk (though I believe J. Edgar Hoover famously and accurately predicted that the double-execution would have a "psychological effect" on the populace which would cause a lot of them to doubt the entire endeavor). Anyway, I'll try to source these when I get a chance... in general I think the Radosh book is the best thing I've read on the trial (most thorough and balanced, anyhow). --User:Fastfission 02:36, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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Ethel and Julius Rosenberg
Ethel Greenglass Rosenberg (1915-1953) and Julius Rosenberg (1918-1953) were United States Communism who were thrust into the world spotlight when they were tried, convicted, and executed for spying for the Soviet Union. The accuracy of these charges remains controversial, though decades later, Soviet communications decrypted by the VENONA project became publicly available and appeared to indicate that at least Julius Rosenberg was actively involved in espionage (although they provided no new evidence that he performed the specific acts of espionage for which he was convicted). Specifically, the couple were charged with conspiracy to commit espionage and were accused of passing nuclear weapons secrets to Russian agents. ==Background== Julius Rosenberg was born on May 12, 1918 in New York. He graduated from the City College of New York with a degree in electrical engineering in 1939 and in 1940 joined the Army Signal Corps where he worked on radar equipment. He became a leader in the Young Communist League, where he met Ethel in 1936, before marrying Ethel three years later. Ethel Rosenberg was born on September 28, 1915 in New York. She was an aspiring actress and singer, but eventually took a secretary job at a shipping company. She became involved in labor disputes and joined the Young Communist League, where she first met Julius. The Rosenbergs had two sons. During World War II, the USSR and the USA were allies in war, but the USA was highly suspicious of Joseph Stalin's intentions. As such, the Americans did not share information or seek assistance from the Soviet Union for the Manhattan Project. The Soviets were aware of the project as a result of espionage penetration of the US government, however, and had made a number of attempts to infiltrate its operations at the University of California, Berkeley. A number of project members — some high-profile, others lower in rank — did voluntarily give secret information to Russian agents, many because they were sympathetic to communism (or the Soviet Union's role in the War) and did not feel that the USA should have a monopoly on atomic weapons. After the war, the US resisted efforts to share nuclear secrets, but the Soviet Union was able to produce its own atomic weapons by 1949. Their first nuclear test, "Joe 1", shocked the West in the speed it was produced. It was discovered in January 1950 that Klaus Fuchs, a German refugee theoretical physicist working for the British mission in the Manhattan Project, had given key documents to the Russians throughout the war. Through Fuchs' confession, US and UK intelligence agents were able to find his "courier", Harry Gold, who was arrested on May 23, 1950. A former machinist at the top-secret Los Alamos National Laboratory, Sgt. David Greenglass, confessed to having passed secret information on to the USSR through Gold as well. He testified that his sister, Ethel Rosenberg, and her husband, Julius, had also passed secrets. Another accused conspirator, Morton Sobell, fled to Mexico City, but was later deported to the United States for trial. ==Trial and conviction== The case against the Rosenbergs, and Sobell, began on March 6, 1951. The prosecution's primary witness, David Greenglass, stated that his sister Ethel, working as a "probationer" (in Soviet parlance), had typed notes containing US nuclear secrets, and these were later turned over to Harry Gold, who would then turn them over to Anatoly A. Yakovlev, the Soviet vice consul in New York City. From the beginning, the trial attracted a high amount of media attention, and like the trial of Alger Hiss, generated a largely polarized response from observers, some of whom believed the Rosenbergs to be clearly guilty, and others who asserted their innocence. As the notes typed by Ethel apparently contained little that was new to the Soviets, supporters felt that a death penalty charge of espionage was not only far too severe, but scarcely could be considered evidence of wrong-doing at all; but for the prosecution this was sufficient evidence to convict Ethel Rosenberg. It is believed that part of the reason Ethel was indicted in addition to Julius was so that the prosecution could use her as a 'lever' to pressure Julius into giving up the names of others who were involved. If that was the case, it didn't work. On the witness stand Julius asserted his right under the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution to not incriminate himself whenever asked about his involvement in the Communist Party or with its members. Ethel did similarly. Neither defendant was viewed sympathetically by the jury. Investigations into the couple's history revealed conflicting evidence that Julius Rosenberg may have had some dealings with an NKVD agent. Since the end of the Cold War, the Russian government has released documentation that shows Julius Rosenberg was providing information to the NKVD. Julius Rosenberg's main contact was Alexander Feklisov, who met Julius on over 50 occasions over a three year period beginning in 1943. Mr. Feklisov said that, though Julius had provided military secrets, he was never able to provide any information of substance concerning the atomic bomb. Mr. Feklisov also asserted that Ethel Rosenberg was not involved in any spying. Before he died, Theodore Hall, who moved to the UK from the US partly because of an FBI investigation of him in the 1950s, claimed that it was he, a scientist working at Los Alamos, who gave atomic information to the USSR, not anyone else such as Ethel Rosenberg, a housewife living in a poor (the Lower East Side) New York neighborhood. The role played by Assistant United States Attorney Roy Cohn, the prosecutor in the case, is controversial, since Cohn stated in his autobiography that he influenced the selection of the judge, and pushed him to impose the death penalty on both Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. ==Execution== The Rosenbergs were convicted on March 29, 1951 and sentenced to death by judge Irving Kaufman on April 5. The conviction helped to fuel Senator Joseph McCarthy's anti-Communist crusade against "anti-American activities" by US citizens. While their devotion to the Communist cause was well documented, they denied the spying charges even as they faced the electric chair. Their defenders said they never stood the chance of a fair trial given the anti-Communist Red Scare that pervaded the United States in the 1950s. The couple were the only two American civilians to be executed for espionage-related activity during the Cold War. In imposing the death penalty, Judge Kaufman noted that he held them responsible not only for espionage but also for the deaths of the Korean War: :''I believe your conduct in putting into the hands of the Russians the A-bomb [...] has already caused, in my opinion, the Communist aggression in Korea, with the resultant casualties exceeding 50,000 and who knows but that millions more of innocent people may pay the price of your treason.'' Their case has been at the center of the controversy over communism in the United States ever since, with supporters steadfastly maintaining that their conviction was an egregious example of persecution typical of the "hysteria" of those times (see Red Scare, McCarthyism) and likening it to the witch hunts that marred Salem witch trials and medieval Europe. To the very end, the couple denied all charges and insisted they were innocent, but they were executed at New York's Sing Sing in 1953, despite protests in the United States and abroad. The Rosenbergs were convicted under the Espionage Act of 1917 of "conspiring to commit espionage in wartime" and sentenced to death, despite the fact that the US was not at war with the Soviet Union at the time their ring was supposedly active.[http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/rosenb/ROS_CT4.HTM] At the time, some Americans believed both Rosenbergs were innocent or received too harsh a punishment, and a grass-roots campaign was started to try to stop the couple's execution. Other Americans felt that the couple got what they deserved. Pope Pius XII appealed to President Dwight D. Eisenhower to spare the couple, but he refused on February 11, 1953 and all other appeals were also unsuccessful. The couple were executed by the electric chair on June 19, 1953. Reports of the execution state that Julius died after the first application of electricity, but Ethel did not succumb immediately and was subjected to two more electrical charges before being pronounced dead. The chair was designed for a man, and Ethel Rosenberg was a petite woman; this discrepancy resulted, it is claimed, in the electrodes fitting poorly. ==Posthumous revelations== In 1995, the National Security Agency publicly released documents from the VENONA project, an effort to decrypt intercepted communications between Soviet agents and the NKVD/KGB. A 1944 cable from New York to Moscow makes it clear that Julius Rosenberg was engaged in espionage, though the importance of their effort is not clear, particularly considering that the Soviets were receiving information on the Atomic bomb from Klaus Fuchs and Donald Duart Maclean. Ethel's involvement is not clear from the VENONA transcripts. A document from November 27, 1944 [http://www.cia.gov/csi/books/venona/b73.gif] specifically about Ethel lists her as a "fellowcountryman" and claims that she was aware of Julius' work, and asks for advice in whether she should be "used" or not. Ethel was apparently never assigned a code name — Julius was always referred to as "ANTENNA" or "LIBERAL" — which has cast doubt onto her significance and involvement. In his posthumous memoirs, published in 1990, Nikita Khrushchev praised the pair for their "very significant help in accelerating the production of our atomic bomb." Whether this was in fact the case, however, has been disputed. [http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/16/rosenbergs/] The quality of the information given to the Soviets, as reported by Greenglass, was also quite poor in comparison to the information given by Fuchs, who had a much more intimate understanding of the research being done, as revealed by records of Fuchs' detailed transmissions in the now-opened Soviet archives. David Greenglass was spared execution in exchange for his testimony. He spent 10 years in prison and was released in 1960, and has lived under an assumed name since his release. Decades later, in late 2001, Greenglass admitted that he had committed perjury and falsely implicated his sister Ethel. Greenglass said he chose to turn in his sister in order to protect his wife and children. ==Controversy== From the beginning of their trial through the present, the Rosenberg case has been a controversial issue, with individual opinions falling roughly among ideological lines. In learned circles, there are a number of points of contention which still hold, even after the revelation of many hundreds of pages of previously secret evidence. *To what extent was Ethel involved? As noted above, there seem to be reasons to believe that while Julius was likely involved in some form of espionage, his wife Ethel may have not been, or not to the extent to which she was convicted. The VENONA transcripts are ambiguous as to Ethel's involvement, and the government case against her seems to have rested only on the testimony of her brother, David Greenglass, who later apparently told reporters that he had perjured himself in order to lessen his own sentence and to help his wife avoid jail time. [http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1P1:48637841&dtype=0~0&dinst=&author=RICHARD%20PYLE%2C%20Associated%20Press%20Writer&title=Infamous%20spy%20Ethel%20Rosenberg%27s%20brother%20admits%20lying%20under%20oath%20to%20save%20himself&date=12/05/2001&refid=ency_botnm] *Were they given a fair trial? There are many critics who have alleged that the political climate of the time, and the seemingly a priori conviction by Judge Kaufman of the pair's guilt, would have made it impossible for the Rosenbergs to have had a fair trial by an impartial jury. The Rosenberg lawyer, Emanuel Bloch, also made a number of massive legal blunders (such as not cross-examining Harry Gold, who in later trials was found to be highly unreliable) suggesting either his incompetence or inability to cope with such a high-profile trial. *Was their sentence fair? The imposition of the death sentence upon the Rosenbergs has been the most controversial aspect of the case, as they were sentenced far more harshly than any other "atomic spies," primarily because they refused to confess to their alleged crimes. Klaus Fuchs, who spied for many more years than the Rosenbergs were alleged to and gave far more sensitive information to the Soviet Union, was only sentenced to 14 years in jail by comparison, in part because he cooperated with authorities and because the Soviet Union was an ally of the United States and the United Kingdom at the time he passed on information. This latter point—whether the alleged Rosenberg espionage in 1945 should be held to the international politics of 1950—is one of special contention, as some critics (the Rosenbergs' sons, in particular) have argued that the Rosenbergs were not trying to undermine the United States when they gave the USSR classified information, but rather trying to help the USSR fight against a greater enemy, Nazi Germany. In 1950, though, this distinction was not made by the U.S. judge or jury, who saw their espionage in the context of the Cold War, Judge Kaufman going so far as to blame the couple for the Korean War. *Did they actually help the Russian program? Recent scholarship has suggested that Greenglass and the Rosenbergs actually knew very little about the workings of the atomic weapons aside from basic concepts that the Russians had already acquired through other espionage sources anyway (or would have likely figured out fairly quickly on their own once their atomic bomb project was put into full production), and compared to the information given by Fuchs and Theodore Hall, it is unlikely that the Rosenberg/Greenglass data would have significantly aided the Soviet project. Even the detailed information given by Fuchs and Hall seems to have only marginally sped up the Soviet project, as it was heavily distrusted by project leader Lavrenty Beria. This, of course, is a question not necessarily related to their guilt or sentencing. ==The Rosenbergs' children== The Rosenbergs' two sons, Robert Meeropol and Michael Meeropol, were orphaned by the execution, and no relatives dared adopt them for fear of ostracism or worse. They were finally adopted by the songwriters Ann and Abel Meeropol. Abel Meeropol wrote the classic anti-lynching anthem "Strange Fruit" made famous by singer Billie Holiday. Robert and Michael co-wrote a book about the experience, ''We are your sons: The legacy of Ethel and Julius Rosenberg'' (1975), and Robert wrote another book in 2004, ''An execution in the family: One son's journey''. In 1990, Robert founded the Rosenberg Fund for Children, a non-profit foundation which provides support for children whose parents are Progressivism activists involved in court cases. ==See also== *Soviet atomic bomb project. * Tony Kushner's play ''Angels in America'' features a fictionalized version of Ethel Rosenberg, played by Meryl Streep in the HBO version. * The case is thought to have spurred Lee Harvey Oswald's interest in Marxism. [http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100wholho.html] * ''The Book of Daniel (novel)'', a 1971 novel by E. L. Doctorow, is loosely based on the Rosenberg case. ==External links== * [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/rosenb/ROS_TIME.HTM Timeline of Events Relating to the Rosenberg Trial.] * [http://english.pravda.ru/world/2001/12/06/23023.html Ethel's brother says he trumped up evidence.] * [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/intercepts.html Project Venona messages.] * [http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/roberg.htm Rosenberg FBI files] (summary only) * [http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/heir/ Heir to an Execution] — An HBO documentary by Ivy Meeropol, the grandaughter of Ethel and Julius. * [http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/meeropol-on-rosenbergs.html A statement by the Rosenberg's sons in support of their exhonoration] * [http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/robertmeeropol/ An Interview with Robert Meeropol about the adoption] 1915 births 1953 deaths Soviet spies Cold War spies Cold War people Causes célèbres U.S. history of anti-Communism
Ethel and Julius Rosenberg
''An event mentioned in this article is a Template:June 19 selected anniversaries'' ------- I admit the details of the execution are rather grisly, even though they are brief. However, the gory details of the Rosenbergs' execution is one of the major elements of their story -- two possibly innocent civilians being executed by one of the most heinous and inhuman methods available. Please decide whether the execution details should be included in the article. -- User:Modemac Suggestion for further research: I recall reading something about the opening of Soviet archives, and there being some information regarding the Rosenbergs' execution/crimes. I've also read that Julius took 3 tries & Ethel 5 - but I don't have a good source on that. And did you mention that they left behind 2 young sons? ~ender 2003-04-02 23:45 MST == Speech == Hello. I am a student, and I am writing a speech on this topic for my English Class. I found it to be very sad, interesting, and educational; that is why I chose it to be my topic. I think that your site has helped me immensely, and I thank you for all the wonderful information that you provided me with. I just wanted to notify you and give you my thanks. ==Nikita Khrushchev== The article says ''Nikita Khrushchev praised the pair in his 1990 memoirs when he wrote of their "very significant help in accelerating the production of our atomic bomb".'' how's that when Khrushchev died in 1971? :It does seem amazingly prescient, doesn't it? But "Khruschev Remembers" was transcribed from Khruschev's tapes and published in at least two volumes: I can't quite track the bibliographic records just now but it seems that Little, Brown either published or republished the last of these around 1990. I'm not sure if that's the explanation. - User:Nunh-huh 03:36, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC) == Disputed == We say in our lead that "the Rosenbergs were indeed guilty of espionage". I am more than passingly familiar with the case, and while it seems to me to be very likely that Julius engaged in espionage (although less clear whether he passed on any important information), I've seen almost nothing to suggest any such involvement by Ethel, and quite a bit to the contrary (much of it in our article). This seems to me to qualify as a factual dispute, so rather than edit, I am slapping on a "disputed" tag and giving 72 hours for someone to back that up with a citation before I edit. -- User:Jmabel 23:01, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC) :I agree... all the available evidence seems to indicate that Ethel was innocent except insofar as she was Julius' wife. I say just fix it, forget the disputed tag... it was probably just an oversight. User:Graft 13:37, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC) :I'll give someone another day or so to find a citation, then I'll do just that. -- User:Jmabel 18:24, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC) :: Remember, Ethel was not convivted of espionage, but conspiracy to commit espionage. The difference may seem subtle, but it has a whole other legal definition. It is much easier to convict someone of conspiracy to (fill in the blank), because you do not have to show that the individual knew a crime was bieng commited, or that they had an active part in the crime itself. ::Just food for thought. User:TDC 07:59, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC) :::However, the case in point is not what the courts found, but what the actual truth is. User:Graft 11:47, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC) :::Remember that the statement in our lead is not that she was "indeed guilty" of conspiracy, but of espionage. And I have yet to see a single citation for that. TDC, you seem (in effect) to be agreeing with that. -- User:Jmabel 18:42, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC) It's been a while and there's been no citation, so I'm amending the lead and removing the disputed tag. User:Hob←User:Hob 17:20, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC) : Agreed, but since I'm the one who raised the dispute, you should not have removed the tag before I said that your edit meets my objection (it does, so no big deal). -- User:Jmabel 17:59, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC) I removed "also" of this sentence: "particularly considering that the Soviets were ''also'' receiving information on the Atomic bomb from Klaus Fuchs and Donald Maclean." With that "also" you admit Julius Rosember was actually giving information on the Atomic bomb to the Soviets. That is disputed. -- User:Nexus 17:59, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC) ==LITERATURE== Just a note: for anyone interested in a literary research on this case, read E.L. Doctorow's "The Book of Daniel", where he tells the story of Daniel, the son of Rochelle and Paul Isaacson, a couple accused of espionage and executes in Sing Sing in 1954... (Italian user) : Though highly fictionalized, in ways that Robert Meeropol has been unhappy with. In particular, he feels that he and his brother were much better treated by the CP than the book suggests. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 21:54, Jan 9, 2005 (UTC) ==Things missing== Things missing from this article which ought to be worked in include: *It was the capture of Klaus Fuchs which lead to Harry Gold which lead to David Greenglass which lead to the Rosenbergs. Fuchs shouldn't be only mentioned at the end of the article as a bit player, he's half the story, and certainly responsible for the context. *The assistant prosecutor in this case was none other than Roy Cohn, later side-man of Joseph McCarthy. This deserves some note. *The Rosenbergs were not the only defendents at the trial; there was a third: Morton Sobell, who was not executed. *The specific information Julius Rosenberg was supposed to have passed on included: lens molds, implosion diagrams, the proximity fuze, and information about a speculative space platform which would have sat between the earth and the moon (no joke!). Just a suggestion, for those who have a little time to burn... --User:Fastfission 23:46, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC) == Ethel Rosenberg's involvement. == According to a book entitled Venona: Decoding Soviet Espionage in America the Venona messages made it quite clear that Ethel not only knew her husband was a spy but that she also assisted and recruited her brother and sister-in-law. A whole lot of other people should have been tried for passing on information and spying too. I'm tired of people making out that these American Communists were some sort of victims, they were working for a foreign dictatorship known as the Soviet Union. Why do people want to make heroes out of all the American CP members is beyond me! User:Pitchka 22:30, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC) :I think the answer to your question is revealed by Julius' codename: "LIBERAL".:05:06, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC) :Well, the Venona information is somewhat suspicious and there is no clear account of Ethel's involvement or not among scholars. As to why people felt/feel the way they do, that's a historical question; if you look into the history of it, it becomes more clear. One of the reasons is that the US government did convict them with a fairly weak case and gave them extremely harsh sentences (no other convicted spy, even those who did give dramatically more important information to the USSR, was ever sentenced to death; especially not for helping a country which, at the time they were spying, was an Allied power), which certainly didn't help. (I am ambivalent as to the overall guilt, by the way) --User:Fastfission 02:13, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC) :Pitchka, you can find books that make almost any imaginable claim about this case. The issue is to find ones that are scholarly, reputable, and weren't rapidly demolished by other scholars who reviewed them. :I've been following the discussion of the Venona documents, although not super closely. You give a book title, but it might be more useful to name authors. Whose book is this? That would make it easier to track down what others have had to say about its scholarship... -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 21:19, Jan 16, 2005 (UTC) ::Sure, here is a link to the book, [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0300084625/qid=1105930922/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-8865170-8761537 Venona]. User:Pitchka 03:05, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC) :::For a review of that from the opposite camp, see this [http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=19990705&c=1&s=schneir review from ''The Nation'']. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 06:44, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC) ::::I'm sure there are lots of articles like this one, people don't like their philosphies or their beliefs to be refuted no matter how strong the evidence. Sacco and Venzetti is a perfect example, no matter how many times the evidence proves their guilt people will say oh, no they didn't do it because that was the popular "word" that was being put out. Members of my own family were members of the Communist Party and they were out putting the word out that trying to save the Rosenbergs, of course they were. Documents from the Soviet Archives in Russia were also used to compile the book. I expect there will be lots of defenders of the Rosenbergs and people like them for years to come, but the truth of the matter is they were spys and the United States Communist Party were getting their marching orders directly from Moscow. Hitler and Stalin are no different in my book. But I'd be called a red-baiter by some because I assert that Ethel and Julius were spies. User:Pitchka 02:26, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC) :::Pitchka, you seem to misunderstand the main historical disputes about the Rosenbergs. It is generally thought that Julius certainly passed information on to the USSR, but it is not as clear about Ethel. Aside from this, there is a question of whether their trial was fair and whether their punishments were worthy of their accused crimes. Related to that is the question of whether their data was really of any use: compared to the data given by Fuchs and Hall, it was practically worthless (Greenglass knew very little about the bomb). Aside from even that, there is the question of whether their work for the USSR was ''to help to USSR against the USA'' or if it was ''to help the USSR against the Nazis'', which are different questions (a motivational ambiguity not present in American law but represented in British law; because Klaus Fuchs gave information to another Allie he was given the relatively light sentence of 14 years, whatever the later history had the USSR become). I think you'd do good to try and see what other people are saying rather than just wildly characterizing everyone who disagrees with you as a dupe. --User:Fastfission 03:07, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC) ::::You are right, I can't believe that so many people are dupes! I can't believe that all these USCP members didn't realize that Stalin was a mass murderer and they were working for the benefit of mother Russia. I can't believe that my aunt and uncle didn't know who they were working for. They were rather intelligent people. You are absolutely right the vast majority of people who talk about Ethel and Julius as vitims are not dupes but propagandists trying to still fight for their cause. Many of these people are Liberals, Socialists, Communists, Democrats, and Europeans. That makes these people not dupes but just plain evil. Thanks for the clarification. Julius and Ethel were Communist spies and they deserved what they got. This sympathy for them is not from dupes but from like minded people. User:Pitchka 18:12, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC) :::::Ah, nothing shows a cooperative attitude like sticking your later response before my earlier one... -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 20:30, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC) ::::::Well, cheerleader, I started this post firstly, and secondly Fastfission begins his paragraph by directly refering to me. Your remark is nothing but a congratulatory remark! But feel free to stick it anywhere you'd like however. User:Pitchka 20:43, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC) ::::Thank you, FastFusion, right on the mark. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 07:14, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC) ::::Take your biased ramblings elsewhere, Pitchka, we are interested in facts, not political rants. User:68.96.57.173 == Judge's speech == Can someone verify the grammatical accuracy of the judge's speech? It is currently quite confusing. (amon April 29, 2005) == Venona == The November 14 document has this: "Direction of probationers will be continued through LIBERAL"; [http://history.acusd.edu/gen/text/coldwar/14_Nov_1944_R1.GIF] Ethel was one of the "probationers", i.e., LIBERAL was her case officers. The November 27 document was a response to Moscows' inquiry about a new probationer not directly being supervised by an MGB officer. This same evidence, (though not from Venona source) was used by both the prosecution and jury. User:Nobs 21:54, 27 May 2005 (UTC) :I don't find the Nov 14 to be an explicit reference to Ethel at all -- it only is if you make assumptions about her involvement in the first place, which is begging the question that the document was cited to answer (whether she had participated). --User:Fastfission 20:36, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Confession & Commutation== I note that NOBS doesn't believe there is any evidence that the Rosenbergs were induced to confess and 'name names' by the prospect of commutation to life imprisonment. But Doctorow writing in the late 60s (his Book of Daniel was published in 1971) gives this detail, so the story must have been current back then. User:Linuxlad 13:02, 30 May 2005 (UTC) :''Book of Daniel'' is a work of fiction, I'm not sure it is the best source to use. --User:Fastfission 20:37, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) But of course I'm aware of this :-) Nonetheless, Doctorow is writing with ideas that were current at the time so the idea that they were offered commutation in exchange for info. is not _just_ an idle speculation. User:Linuxlad 21:56, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) :: Not being a lawyer, it is my layman's understanding that a guilty plea in any capital crime always spare's the life of the accused. And I can develope the sources that said a guilty plea would have spared them (for now, see Haynes & Klehr, it is not unsymapathetic to the Rosenbergs execution, basically says they were something of the public patsies & fall guys for the larger coverup of conspiracy that took place and was not revealed til Venona. Also, Venona probably couldn't have been used against them because of "hearsay" etc)User:Nobs01 02:01, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC) :::Your "layman's understanding" is simply wrong. A guilty plea will not inherently stave off capital punishment. What ''is'' common in the U.S. is the explicit "plea bargain" by which prosecution and defense agree to skip a trial, with the defendant pleading guilty in exchange for a reduced sentence. But these require a specific negotiation in each instance. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 05:07, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC) ::Evidently a plea bargain was negotiated then. I came accross reference to it in ''passim''; this article however is not my main focus at the moment so I havent been able to follow up and corroborate it. There may have even been a reference to someone pleading with Ethel to cop the plea for the sake of the children and she refused, thinking the Communist Party would look after the children. User:Nobs01 05:45, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC) :::I was under the impression -- from Radosh and Milton's ''The Rosenberg File'', I think -- that the point of trying to give Ethel the death penalty was to induce a guilty plea in ''Julius'' (that is, if Julius pleaded, then they would spare Ethel's life). I believe he cites memos from Saypol to this effect. In any event, I am pretty sure there is hard evidence that the death penalties were seen as both sending powerful messages and hopefully getting them to talk (though I believe J. Edgar Hoover famously and accurately predicted that the double-execution would have a "psychological effect" on the populace which would cause a lot of them to doubt the entire endeavor). Anyway, I'll try to source these when I get a chance... in general I think the Radosh book is the best thing I've read on the trial (most thorough and balanced, anyhow). --User:Fastfission 02:36, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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