
{| border=1 align=right cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=300 style="margin: 0 0 1em 1em; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; border-collapse: collapse; font-size: 95%;" |+England |- | style="background:#efefef;" align="center" colspan=2 | {| border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" style="padding-top: 0.5em;" |- | align="center" width="170px" | | align="center" width="110px" | |- | align="center" width="170px" | (Flag of England) | align="center" width="110px" | (Coat of arms of England) |} |- | align="center" colspan=2 | ''Motto: Dieu et mon droit
(French language: "God and my right")'' |- | align=center colspan=2 style="background: #ffffff;" | |- | align=center colspan=2 style="background: #ffffff;" |
England's location within the UK |- | Official language | English language ''de facto'' |- | Capital | London ''de facto'' |- | Largest city | London |- | Area
- Total | List of United Kingdom nations by area
1 E11 m² square kilometre |- | Population
- Total (2001)
- Population density | List of United Kingdom nations by population
49,138,831
377/km² |- | Religion | Church of England
(Established Church): 31,500,000
Roman Catholic Church: 5,000,000
Islam: 1,600,000
Methodism: 1,400,000
jew: 267,000
Eastern Orthodox Church: 250,000
Sikhism: 336,000
Hinduism: 559,000
Baptists: 140,000
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: 100,000-200,000 |- | Unification | 9th century by
Egbert of Wessex |- | Currency | Pound sterling (£) (GBP) |- | Time zone | Coordinated Universal Time, Greenwich Mean Time, British Summer Time |- | National anthems | None officially; ''de facto'' (as part of the UK):
''God Save the Queen''
Unofficial:
''Rule Britannia''
''Land of Hope and Glory''
''And did those feet in ancient time'' |- | National flower | ''rose (red, white)'' |- | Patron saint | ''St. George'' |} England is one of the four constituent parts of the United Kingdom (along with Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales). England constitutes the largest, most populous, and the most densely populated country of the United Kingdom. England has land borders with Wales and Scotland, and elsewhere it is bounded by the sea. England is named after the Angles, from the German region Angeln, one of a number of Germanic tribes who settled there in the 5th century and 6th century centuries. England has not had a distinct political identity since 1707, when Great Britain was established as a unified political entity. It does, however, have a ''legal'' identity separate from those of Scotland and Northern Ireland, as part of the entity "England and Wales." England's largest city, London, is also the capital of the United Kingdom. ==Naming== The names by which most of the various languages of Europe refer to England follow two distinct patterns. Virtually every continental European tongue uses a name similar to "England": "Angleterre" (French language), "Inglaterra" (Spanish language) "Anglia" (Hungarian language), "Anglija" (Slovenian language), "Inghilterra" (Italian language), "Engleska" (Serbo-Croatian language) and so on. The Celtic languages of northwest Europe, by contrast, use quite different names, e.g. "Bro-Saoz" (Breton language), "Pow Sows" (Cornish language) and "Sasana" (Irish language). It has been suggested that these languages' alternative focus can be traced to the tribal geography of England in the Dark Ages: when the Celtic Romano-British were driven to the edges of Britain by the invading tribes, their realms abutted the Saxon lands while the other Germanic peoples were concentrated further to the east. (Although the Welsh language country name for England, "Lloegr", is linguistically unrelated to Angle and Saxon alike, the English people are indeed "Saeson" in Welsh). (See wikt:England for a list of non-English names for England.) Alternative names sometimes used for England have included the slang "Blighty", from the Hindustani language "bila yati" meaning "foreign"; and "Albion", an ancient name popularised by Pliny the Elder and Ptolemy in the 1st century, supposedly in reference to the white (Latin ''alba'') cliffs of Dover, England. (In its origins, however, the name applied to the whole island of Great Britain.) More poetically, England has been called "this sceptred isle...this other Eden" and "this Green and Pleasant Land", quotations respectively from the poetry of William Shakespeare (in ''Richard II (play)'') and William Blake (''And did those feet in ancient time''). "England" is sometimes, wrongly, used in reference to the whole United Kingdom, the entire island of Great Britain (or simply Britain), or indeed the British Isles. This usage pattern is frequently seen in documents from the United States (though the grave of Herbert Henry Asquith in Sutton Courtenay is inscribed "Prime Minister of England"). This is not only incorrect but can cause offence to people from other parts of the UK. Further, there are situations where, while the word "England" would be factually correct, United Kingdom people would typically use the less-specific "Britain" or "the UK". Sometimes (at least in Finland), people have even been confused enough to refer to the entire United Kingdom as "England" and to the individual country of England as "Britain", completely opposite of the official names. The names Scotland and Wales, however, are always used correctly and unambiguosly. The inhabitants of England are the English. The slang terms sometimes used for them include "Sassenachs" (from the Scots Gaelic), "Limeys" (in reference to the citrus fruits carried aboard English sailing vessels to prevent scurvy) and "Pom/Pommy" (used in Australian English#Vocabulary and New Zealand English), but these can cause offence to people from England. Also see alternative words for British. ==Symbols and insignia==
The two traditional symbols of England are the St. George's cross (the English flag) and the ''Three Lions'' coat of arms of England (both are pictured above), derived from the great Norman powers that formed the monarchy - the Cross of Aquitaine and the Lions of Anjou. The three lions were first definitely used by Richard I (''Richard the Lionheart''), on his second seal, in the late twelfth century (although it is thought that Henry I may have bestowed it on his son Henry before then). Historian Simon Schama has argued that the Three Lions are the true symbol of England because the English throne descended down the Angevin line.
However, a red cross acted as a symbol for many crusade in the 12th century and 13th century. It became associated with Saint George, and England, along with other countries and cities (such as Georgia_(country), Milan and the Republic of Genoa) which claimed him as their patron saint and used his cross as a banner. It remained in national use until 1707, when the Union Flag (which English and Scottish ships had used at sea since 1606) was adopted for all purposes to unite the whole of Great Britain under a common flag. The flag of England no longer has much of an official role, but it is widely flown by Church of England properties and at sporting events. (Paradoxically, the latter is a fairly recent development; until the late 20th century, it was commonplace for fans of English teams to wave the Union Flag, rather than the Saint George's Cross.)
The rose is widely recognised as the national flower of England and is used in a variety of contexts, for example as the badge of the England national rugby union team. This rose is either a red rose (which also symbolises Lancashire), a white rose (which also symbolises Yorkshire) or a "tudor rose" (symbolising the end of the Wars of the Roses).
The Three Lions badge performs a similar role for the English national football team and English national cricket team.
==Anthem==
England does not have an official anthem of its own but ''and did those feet in ancient time'' (incorporating the Blake phrase quoted above), ''I Vow to Thee, My Country'', ''Enigma Variations'' by Edward Elgar, and ''Land of Hope and Glory'' are all widely regarded — unofficially — as English national hymns (although the last more properly refers to Great Britain, not just England).
English and British symbols often overlap at sporting events. ''God Save The Queen'' (the national anthem for the UK as a whole) is nonetheless usually played for the England football team, although ''Land of Hope and Glory'' has been used as the English anthem at the Commonwealth Games (where the four nations in the UK face each other independently).
== History ==
''Main article: History of England''
Since the term "English" explicitly refers to peoples who arrived on the island of Great Britain relatively recently, it is anachronistic to talk of England's prehistory or ancient history which, though rich and interesting, are properly dealt with as part of the history of the island of Great Britain as a whole.
England has been inhabited for at least 500,000 years, although the repeated Ice Ages made much of Britain uninhabitable for extended periods until as recently as 20,000 years ago. Stone Age hunter-gatherers eventually gave way to farmers and permanent settlements, with a spectacular and sophisticated megalithic civilisation arising in western England some 4,000 years ago. It was replaced around 1,500 years later by Celtic tribes migrating from Western and continental Europe, mainly from France. These tribes were known collectively as "Britons", a name bestowed by Phoenician traders - an indication of how, even at this early date, the island was part of a Europe-wide trading network.
[[Image:Bayeuxtap1.jpg|thumb|200px|right|The Norman conquest of England, as depicted in the Bayeux Tapestry]]
Elizabeth_I_of_England,_the_last_Queen_of_England">image:Elizabeth I (Ermine Portrait).jpg|thumb|175px|right|Elizabeth I of England, the last Queen of England
The Britons were significant players in continental politics and supported their allies in Gaul militarily during the Gallic Wars with the Roman Republic. This prompted the Romans to invade and subdue the island, first with Julius Caesar's raid in 55 BC, and then the Emperor Claudius' conquest in the following century. The whole southern part of the island — roughly corresponding to modern day England and Wales — became a prosperous part of the Roman Empire. It was finally abandoned early in the 5th century when the legions were pulled back to the Continent.
Unaided by the Roman army, Roman Britannia could not long resist the Germanic tribes who arrived in the 5th century and 6th century centuries, enveloping the majority of modern day England in a new culture and language, pushing the Romano-British dominance back into modern-day Wales and western extremities of England, notably Cornwall and Cumbria. The invaders fell into three main groups: the Jutes, the Saxons, and the Angles. As they became more civilised, recognisable states formed and began to merge with one another. (The most well-known state of affairs being the "Anglo-Saxon heptarchy".) From time to time throughout this period, one Anglo-Saxon king, recognised as the "Bretwalda" by other rulers, had effective control of all or most of the English; so it is impossible to identify the precise moment when the country of England was unified. In some sense, real unity came as a response to the Danish Viking incursions which occupied the eastern half of "England" in the 8th century. Egbert of Wessex, King of Wessex (d. 839) is often regarded as the first king of all the English, although the title "King of England" was first adopted, two generations later, by Alfred the Great (ruled 871–899).
Some school histories of England begin with the Norman conquest in 1066, and the numbering system used for English monarchs treats that event as a blank slate from which to count. (For example, the Edward I of England who reigned in the 13th century was not the first king of England of that name, only the first since the conquest.) But although he unquestionably engineered a pivotal moment in the country's history, William the Conqueror did not "found" or "unify" the country; he took over a pre-existing England and gave it an Anglo-Norman administration and nobility who, retaining proto-French as their language for the next three hundred years, ruled as custodians over English commoners. The Norman cavalry thus initiated a class system that arguably persists today. Some Historians have even gone as far as to label the Norman occupation as genocide.
While Old English continued to be spoken by common folk, Norman feudal lords significantly influenced the language with French words and customs being adopted over the succeeding centuries evolving to a Romance-Germanic hybrid of Middle English widely spoken in Chaucers time.
England came repeatedly into conflict with Wales and Scotland, at the time an independent principality and an independent kingdom respectively, as its rulers sought to expand Norman power across the entire island of Britain. The conquest of Wales was achieved in the 13th century when it was annexed to England and gradually came to be a part of that kingdom for most legal purposes, although in the modern era it is more usually thought of as a separate nation (fielding, for example, its own athletic teams). Norman power in Scotland waxed and waned over the years, with the Scots managing to maintain a varying degree of independence despite repeated wars with the English. Although it was on the whole only a moderately successful power in military terms, England became one of the wealthiest states in medieval Europe, due chiefly to its dominance in the lucrative wool market.
The failure of English territorial ambitions in continental Europe prompted the kingdom's rulers to look further afield, creating the foundations of the mercantile and colonial network that was to become the British Empire. The turmoil of the Reformation embroiled England in religious wars with Europe's Catholic powers, notably Spain, but the kingdom preserved its independence as much through luck as through the skill of charismatic rulers such as Elizabeth I of England . Elizabeth's successor, James I of England was already king of Scotland (as James VI); and this personal union of the two crowns into the crown of Great Brittaine was followed a century later by the Act of Union 1707, which formally unified England, Scotland and Wales as the political union of Great Britain, being the core of the present-day United Kingdom. For the history of England after that date, see History of the United Kingdom.
== Politics ==
''Main article: Politics of the United Kingdom, Government of England''
Since the promulgation of the 1284 Statute of Rhuddlan and the Acts of Union 1536-1543 Wales has shared a legal identity with England as the joint entity of England and Wales. The Act of Union 1707 with the Kingdom of Scotland in 1707 created the Kingdom of Great Britain, subsuming England, Wales and Scotland into a single political entity. Scotland, along with Northern Ireland, retains separate legal systems and identities. The duchy of Cornwall also retains some unique rights.
All of Great Britain has been ruled by the government of the United Kingdom since that date, although in 1999 the first elections to the newly created Scottish Parliament and National Assembly for Wales left England as the only part of the Union with no devolved assembly or parliament. As all legislation for England is passed by Parliament at Westminster there are some complaints about the ability of non-English Members of Parliament to influence purely English affairs. This apparent anomaly has been highlighted by both English and non-English politicians, often those opposed to devolution, and has become popularly known as the West Lothian question.
Administratively, England is something of an anomaly within the UK. Unlike the other three nations, it has no local parliament or government and its administrative affairs are dealt with by a combination of the UK government, the UK parliament and a number of England-specific quangos such as English Heritage. Although there are calls from some for a Devolved English Parliament, there appears to be little popular support for independence of England from the UK - perhaps due to its dominance in the Union. Those groups that do campaign for such a thing tend to be right-wing organisations with very little popular support.
The current British Labour Party government favoured the establishment of regional administration, claiming that England was too large to be governed as a sub-state entity. A Northern England referendums, 2004 on this issue in North East England on 4 November 2004 decisively rejected the proposal.
Some criticised the English regional proposals for not decentralisation enough, saying that they amounted not to devolution, but to little more than local government reorganisation, with no real power being removed from central government. The English regions would not even have had the limited powers of the Welsh Assembly, much less the tax varying and legislative powers of the Scottish Parliament. Rather, power was simply re-allocated within the region, with little new resource allocation and no real prospects of Assemblies being able to change the pattern of regional aid. Responsibility for regional transport was added to the proposals late in the process. This was perhaps crucial in the North East, where resentment at the Joel Barnett, Baron Barnett, which delivers greater regional aid to adjacent Scotland, was a significant impetus for the North East devolution campaign. There has also been a campaign for a Cornish assembly along Welsh lines by groups such as Mebyon Kernow, which recently collected 50,000 signatures in support.
Some euroscepticism believe that the establishment of English regions as administrative entities is designed to undermine the concept of English nationhood and more easily fit England into a European federal model.
Conventionally the national capital of England is London, although technically it would be more exact to call London the capital of "England and Wales" given England's lack of a distinctive political identity separate from the Principality. Winchester, Hampshire served as the country's first national capital until some time in the late 11th century after the Norman Conquest. The City of London became England's commercial capital, while the City of Westminster (where the royal court was located) became the political capital. These roles have, broadly speaking, been maintained to the present day.
== Subdivisions ==
''Main article: Subdivisions of England''
Historically, the highest level of local government in England was the Counties of England. These divisions had emerged from a range of units of old, pre-unification England, whether they were Kingdoms, such as Kingdom of Essex and Sussex; Duchy, such as Yorkshire, Cornwall and Lancashire or simply tracts of land given to some noble, as is the case with Berkshire. Until 1867, they were subdivided into smaller divisions called Hundred (division).
These counties all still exist in, or near to, their original form as the Traditional_counties_of_England%2C_Scotland_and_Wales. In many places, however, they have been heavily modified or abolished outright as administrative counties. This came about due to a number of factors.
The fact that the counties were so small meant, and still means, that there was no regional government able to coordinate an overarching plan for the area. This was especially true in the metropolitan areas surrounding the cities, as the county lines were usually drawn up before the industrial revolution and the mass urbanisation of England.
The solution was the creation of large Metropolitan_Counties_of_England centred on cities. These were later broken up, with several other counties, into Unitary authorities in England, unifying the county and district/borough levels of government.
London is a special case, and is the one Regions of England which currently has a representative Greater London Authority as well as a directly elected Mayor of London. The thirty-two London borough and the Corporation of London remain the local form of government in the city.
Other than Greater London, the official Regions are:
*North East England
*North West England
*Yorkshire and the Humber
*West Midlands (region)
*East Midlands
*East of England
*South West England
*South East England
Outside London the regions have very little power and are not accountable to elected representative – regional authority is placed in the hands of unelected assemblies. If, as now seems unlikely, regions opt to replace these bodies with elected assemblies, Local government in England will remain as variable and, some might say, confusing as ever.
== Geography ==
''Main articles: Geography of the United Kingdom, Geography of England''
England comprises the central and southern two-thirds of the island of Great Britain, plus offshore islands of which the largest is the Isle of Wight. It is bordered to the north by Scotland and to the west by Wales. It is closer to continental Europe than any other part of Britain, divided from France only by a 21 mile (34 km) sea gap.
Most of England consists of rolling hills, but it is more mountainous in the north with a chain of low mountains — the Pennines — dividing east and west. The dividing line between terrain types is usually indicated by the Tees-Exe line. There is also an area of flat, low-lying marshland in the east, much of which has been drained for agricultural use.
The list of England's largest cities is much debated because in British English the normal meaning of city is "a continuously built up urban area"; these are hard to define and various other definitions are preferred by some people to boost the ranking of their own city. London is by far the largest English city. Manchester and Birmingham vie for second place. A number of other cities, mainly in the north of England, are of substantial size and influence. These include: Liverpool, Leeds, Nottingham, Bristol, Sheffield, Bradford and Leicester. Using the standard U.S. city limits definition of a city the list of English districts by population are: Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield, Bradford, Liverpool, and Manchester. Note that London is not on this list (Greater London is a Regions of England and the City of London is tiny), and that one of the two candidates for the status of England's "second city", Manchester, is down in sixth. In the UK, this method of ranking cities is generally only used by people whose own city is promoted by it.
The Channel Tunnel, near Folkestone, links England to the Europe Continental_Europe. The English/France border is halfway along the tunnel.
The highest temperature ever recorded in England was 38.5celsius (101.3 Fahrenheit) on August 10, 2003 in Kent. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/3153532.stm]
===Major rivers===
* River Thames
* River Severn
* River Trent
* Humber
* River Ouse, Yorkshire
* River Tyne, England
* River Mersey
* River Dee, Wales
* River Avon
:Waterways of the United Kingdom
===Major towns and cities===
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The largest cities in England are as follows (in alphabetical order):
* Birmingham
* Bradford
* Bristol
* Coventry
* Derby
* (Kingston upon) Kingston upon Hull
* Leeds
* Leicester
* Liverpool
* London
* Manchester
* Newcastle upon Tyne (upon Tyne)
* Norwich
* Nottingham
* Plymouth
* Sheffield
* Stoke-on-Trent
* Wolverhampton
''Main article: List of towns in England''
== Economy ==
''Main article: Economy of England''
== Demographics ==
''Main article: Demographics of England''
''Statistics in this section come from the 2001 Census''
England is both the most populous and the most ethnically diverse nation in the United Kingdom with around 49 million inhabitants, of which roughly a tenth are from non-White ethnic groups. It is one of the most densely populated countries in Europe, second only to the Netherlands in terms of population density.
This population is made up of, and descended from, immigrants who have arrived over millennia. The principal waves of migration have been in c. 600 BC (Celts), the Roman Empire period (garrison soldiers from throughout the Empire), 350–550 (Angles, Saxons, Jutes), 800–900 (Vikings, Danes), 1066 (Normans), 1650–1750 (Continental Europe refugees and Huguenots), 1880–1940 (Jews), 1950— (British Afro-Caribbean community, Africans, South Asians), 1985— (citizens of European Community member states, Eastern Europe, Iranians, Kurds, refugees).
The general prosperity of England has also made it a destination for economic migrants particularly from Ireland and Scotland. This diverse ethnic mix continues to create a diverse and dynamic language that is widely used internationally.
==Genetics==
Recent studies on the genetics of the English peoples (excluding recent arrivals in the 20th century) show that most are decended from palaeolithic inhabitants of England and there has been very little genetic contribution from Celtic or Anglo-Saxon migrations.However some of these results have been contridictory since they depend on partly on how one chooses the location from which the original Celtics or Anglo-Saxons came from.
== English identity ==
The simplest view is that an English person is someone who is from England and holds British nationality, regardless of his or her racial origin. However, some immigrants refer to themselves as "British" rather than "English". This is possibly because they see themselves as having travelled to ''Great Britain'', often from the former British empire and have been awarded ''British Citizenship''.
In fact it is quite commonplace to hear ''any'' inhabitant of England refer to him- or herself as "British" rather than "English"; centuries of English dominance within the United Kingdom has created a situation where to be English is, as a linguistics would put it, an "unmarked" state, (i.e. a British person, institution, custom, city, etc. is assumed English unless specified otherwise). The English frequently include their neighbours in the general term "British" while Scots, Welsh, Irish and some Cornish proud of their separate identities, tend to be more forward about referring to themselves by one of those more specific terms.
A person, therefore, using the term "English" to describe him or herself (regardless of personal history) may be going out of his or her way to do so; hence he or she may also be seen (rightly or wrongly, and not necessarily pejoratively) as nationalism.* While Scottish, Welsh, Irish and Cornish patriotism are widely exhibited, specifically English patriotism has often been viewed with suspicion, and most English people feel more comfortable identifying themselves with Britain as a whole. Although this may be to avoid being seen as bullies by their neighbours. The extent to which specifically English patriotism is linked to a right-wing xenophobic agenda has also generated discomfort. The appropriation of English symbols by racist far-right organisations such as the British National Front made many people uncomfortable with expressions of Englishness. In recent years, English identity has recently been a topic of debate in the national press, with many English people trying to "reclaim" the term and the flag from the far-right.
*(''To qualify this view, many English people who have spent a lot of time overseas may fall into the habit of referring to themselves as "English". It is the most recognisable designation by speakers of many languages, especially where their own language uses a similar word. Even in other English-speaking countries, people are often perplexed by concepts of "British" or the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".'')
All these distinctions are only possible because there is no "English citizenship" or legal definition of Englishness. Moreover, the hazy understanding many people have of the distinction between "England" and "Britain" compounds the confusion. At any rate, it is always safe, when in doubt, to refer to an "English" person as "British", since this will be correct even if not as precise as possible.
See also: Population of England for historical population estimates
==Culture==
''Main article: Culture of England''
*English literature
**Sir Thomas Browne
**Geoffrey Chaucer
**John Milton
**William Shakespeare
**Jane Austen
*List of national parks of England and Wales
*England/Food and Drink
*English folklore
*English art
**English school of painting
*Music of England
==Languages==
As its name suggests, the English language, today spoken by hundreds of millions of people around the world, originated as the language of England, where it remains the principal tongue today (although not officially designated as such). An Indo-European language in the Germanic family, it is closely related to Scots language, Frisian language and Low Saxon language. As the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms merged into England, "Old English language" emerged; some of its literature and poetry has survived.
Used by aristocracy and commoners alike before the Norman conquest (1066), English was displaced in cultured contexts under the new regime by the Norman language language of the new Anglo-French aristocracy. Its use was confined primarily to the lower social classes while official business was conducted in a mixture of Latin and French. Over the following centuries, however, English gradually came back into fashion among all classes and for all official business except certain traditional ceremonies. (Some survive to this day.) But Middle English, as it had by now become, showed many signs of French influence, both in vocabulary and spelling. During the renaissance, many words were coined from Latin (language) and Greek (language) origins; and more recent years, Modern English has extended this custom, being always remarkable for its far-flung willingness to incorporate foreign-influenced words.
The law does not recognise any language as being official, but English language is the only language used in England for general official business. The other national languages of the UK (Welsh language, Irish Gaelic language and Scots Gaelic language) are confined to their respective nations, and only Welsh is treated by law as an equal to English (and then only for organisations which do business on both sides of the Anglo-Welsh border or in Wales itself).
The only non-Anglic native spoken language in England is the Cornish language, a Celtic languages spoken in Cornwall, which became extinct in the 19th century but has been revived and is spoken in various degrees of fluency by around 3,500 people. This has no official status (unlike Welsh) and is not required for official use, but is nonetheless supported by national and local government under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. Cornwall County Council has produced [http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/cornish/strategy/english/engl01.htm a draft strategy] to develop these plans. There is, however, no programme as yet for public bodies to actively promote the language. Scots language is spoken by some adjacent the Anglo-Scottish Border.
Most deaf people within England speak British sign language (BSL), a sign language native to Britain. The British Deaf Association estimates that 70,000 people throughout the UK speak BSL as their first or preferred language, but does not give statistics specific to England. Like Cornish, BSL has no official status, but has been granted a degree of recognition by the government. The BBC broadcasts several of its programmes with BSL interpreters.
Different languages from around the world, especially from the former British Empire and the Commonwealth of Nations, have been brought to England by immigrants. Many of these are widely spoken within ethnic minority communities, including Punjabi language, Hindi language, Urdu language, Bengali language, Gujarati language, Chinese language and Vietnamese language. These are often used by official bodies to communicate with the relevant sections of the community, particularly in big cities, but this occurs on an "as needed" basis rather than as the result of specific legislative ordinances.
Other languages have also traditionally been spoken by minority populations in England, including Romany language.
Despite the relatively small size of the nation, there are a large number of distinct Regional_accents_of_English_speakers#England. Those with particularly strong accents may not be easily understood elsewhere in the country.
==See also==
* English language
* English law
* English (people)
* List of monarchs of England - Kings of England family tree
* List of English people
* Angeln (region in northern Germany, the Name ''England'' means ''Angelland'')
* UK topics
* List of not fully sovereign nations
* Education in England
==External links==
* [http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/state/nations/ BBC Nations] Articles on England and her neighbours
* [http://www.stonepages.com/england/england.html Stones of England] Information on the historic sites of England
* [http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/britishisles/ The British Isles] Information on England
* [http://www.justengland.org/ England Travel Guide]
* [http://www.world66.com/europe/unitedkingdom/england World66 Guide to England] A travel guide written by its users.
* [http://www.earth-photography.com/Countries/England/London_photos.html London in Pictures]
* [http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page398.asp The Monarchy Today: The Union Jack] Information about the
* [http://webcam.deili.info/en,1,10 England Webcam] Union Jack flag.
*
*[http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/capelli2_CB.pdf A Y Chromosome Census of the British Isles.]
EnglandMonarchies
ang:Englaland
ga:Sasana
gd:Sasainn
ka:ინგლისი
kw:Pow Sows
la:Anglia
li:Ingeland
zh-min-nan:England
nds:England
simple:England
th:ประเทศอังกฤษ
vi:Anh
Refactored. Discussions about Cornwall moved to Talk:England/Cornwall. User:Marnanel 18:02, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC) ==Flag== I removed the reference to an Act of Parliament in 1908 approving names for the Union Jack, as I don't believe there has ever been such an Act. If there was such an Act, then what was it called? --user:Zundark, 2001 Oct 17 See: http://www.flaginst.demon.co.uk/fiunionflag.htm
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb.html
:Neither of these mentions an Act of Parliament. As far as I can tell, they refer to a parliamentary answer (see under "Use and status of the flag" in the second of your links). --user:Zundark, 2001 Oct 17 ---- ---- == More flag== Can someone explain why the bit at the top about the English flag links to a page about the United Kingdom flag? Shouldn't that be a "See also" at the bottom? And the external link goes to a page which again describes the Union flag, which is confusing for a page which is supposed to be about England. Just curious... User:Cferrero 10:12 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC) ---- ==Coat-of-arms== I went to the Westminster Parliament yesterday. Among other things, I was looking for the coat-of-arms with the (Three) Lions of England. The building is replete with such, some even brilliantly coloured, but alas, the visitors were not allowed to photograph inside the building except in the St Stephen's Chapel, where I took a photograph of a plain (not coloured) English coat-of-arms -- I will upload this soon. I think Wikipedia would appreciate anyone providing a coloured example. (See ) --User:Kaihsu 10:03, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC) : As promised: --User:Kaihsu 12:53, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC) THE THREE LIONS EMBLEM IS NOT AN ENGLISH EMBLEM! [I believe the three lions emblem to be foreign not English! I believe it's Norman not English! England started way before the Normans ever existed. The Normans were not French either which seems to be a common misconception thanks to a lack of true English history IN TURN THANKS TO britain's socialist type governments.user: M. Anderson 2:02 July 26 2004] :Well, but heraldry hadn't really developed yet before the Norman conquest -- the "coats of arms" sometimes assigned to Edward the Confessor, Alfred the Great, and so forth are retrospective mediaeval inventions. The three lions passant, likewise, were developed well after the Norman conquest. So they're English enough. User:Doops 21:00, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC) ::''a lack of true English history IN TURN THANKS TO britain's socialist type governments'' Eh? If it comes to forgetting about the true English, anyone who knows the tales of Robin Hood also knows that the Tories are all Normans, so don't go blaming the socialists now... ;) -- User:Picapica 10:42, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC) Actually the three lions are english, and not norman. The coat of arms of normandy have TWO LIONS in it and thats probably why we have three. ---- ==Culture of England== Is there really no Culture of England? Surely there must an Englishman (Englishperson?) with some sense of what has been going on all these years. :) User:Fvincent 17:30, Dec 3, 2003 (UTC) :I am not English, but there appear to be a number of different cultures, all happy to ridicule the others. User:( 17:34, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC) I am English, but I don't get the question, and I am only 10 so I probably won't be able to answer it, but explain it a bit more anyway. There is a culture of England. The culture of England includes everyone from indians to Eskimos, everyone respects everyone elses culture, we all drink tea and Indians own the corner shops like Apu on the Simpsons, and i like to think that most of us are patriotic and love the Royal family. But the best way to find the culture of England is to come here and see things for yourself, you wont be disappointed.---Tony Jones---Romford---Greater London--- == Anti-English Bias Yet Again == Could anyone explain to me the purpose of placing a racist French insult so high on the England page and peppering the information which follows it with the negative anti-English and, usually incorrect, opinions of the neighbouring celtic nations? I have checked the pages for France, Ireland and Scotland and there is no abusive comment posted about those countries and the data is not composed in the same negative or critical tone. Yet again we see England being used as the world's whipping boy and it is unfair and silly. Do you want your online encyclopedia to be taken seriously? If what you're referring to is this paragraph: *The Marquis de Ximenés, an 18th century diplomat, is credited with coining the phrase ''La perfide Albion'', or "perfidious Albion", which is still heard from the French -- also an affectionate term, in its own way. It is also used by the Irish about the English but in a less affectionate manner, suggesting a degree of untrustworthiness. The Irish also refer to England as "pagan England". ["Pagan England"? I have never heard anyone Irish say this. I think this is your OWN opinion! If you want to talk about pre-christianity go ahead as the "Irish" were also pagans. Well, what are the Irish anyway come to think of it? They say they are 'celtic' but where does the name Fitzherbert come from? Who founded Dublin? Maybe you can try www.homestead.com/englishheathenism/ to] User: M. Anderson 1:38 july 26 2004 then I'd like to say I agree. This has no real place in an article on England. And I'm Irish. User:Bmills 17:22, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC) == Perfidious England == I have removed the gratuitous and racist insult because no-one has given me an explanation as to what useful purpose it served. Remarks such as that can only serve to heighten racial tension not ease it. :Well, there may be some small purpose to leaving the remarks in. I actually came upon this talk page specifically looking for the origins of the term "Perfidious Albion" which I've heard in quite a number of places. I appreciate the desire to remove hateful sentiments, but at the same time, please be wary of erasing history when doing so. I'd like to still be able to go to wikipedia and find out the background of this (in)famous phrase. If the explanation has to be couched in disclaimers, then so be it. [21:30, 20 Feb 2004] ---- ==England's legal identity== "England's formal legal identity is that of the kingdom of England and Wales." Really? There has never been a Kingdom of England and Wales, and I have never seen this term used. "England and Wales" has some reality as an administrative, legal and statistical unit of the UK, though much less than it used to now that Wales has its own legislature. But it is absurd to say that "England's formal legal identity" (assuming there is such a thing) includes Wales. Unless someone can justify this sentence it shoule be deleted. User:Adam Carr 13:52, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) : My understanding is that historically there were three kingdoms, England, Scotland and Ireland and the Principality of Wales. With the 1707 Act of Union with Scotland, the kingdom of Great Britain, incorporating Wales, began to emerge. This kingdom was a fully fledged fact by the time of the 1800 act which brought about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, more recently the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There was never an official kingdom of Wales or of England and Wales. : England, as I understand it, has only a negative official identity: the bit of Britain not covered by the regional assemblies of Scotland and Wales would just about sum it up. User:Bmills 14:10, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) :: It's straightforward enough. Wales's identity as a separate legal domain was extinguished by its annexation in the Middle Ages, leading to the creation of a single legal entity called "England and Wales" in which a set of common laws applies. Scotland and Northern Ireland are separate legal entities. You'll notice, in virtually anything to do with legal matters, that a distinction is made between "England and Wales", "Scotland" and "Northern Ireland". See the University of Leeds's summary at http://www.leeds.ac.uk/law/hamlyn/uklegsys.htm . -- User:ChrisO 14:23, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) None of that answers my point that the "Kingdom of England and Wales" never existed and certainly doesn't now, and that therefore the sentence is wrong. Now that Wales has its own legislature I'd be surprised if the expression "England and Wales" any longer has much meaning or currency. User:Adam Carr 14:29, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) :Agreed. But the article is better now without the "kingdom". Clearly the new assembly has changed the "weight" of "England and Wales". User:Bmills 14:34, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) :: Adam has a fair point regarding the misleading use of the word "kingdom" - hopefully my clarifications of the article have cleared up this point. But the expression "England and Wales" definitely does still have a lot of validity. Devolution has simply given the Welsh Assembly powers to pass secondary legislation affecting the counties of Wales. It hasn't established a separate legal domain for Wales and the two countries continue to share a single legal system governed from Westminster, which retains the exclusive right to pass primary legislation affecting Wales. See http://www.dca.gov.uk/constitution/devolution/ukdev.htm for an explanation of the devolution settlement. -- User:ChrisO 14:46, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) The Kingdom was always merely England. Wales was ignored as a separate entity. In the 1960s when the Wales and Berwick Act was repealed that references to "England" were not to be taken to include "Wales". Pre Welsh Assembly most primary & secondary legislation affected England and Wales so the term grew in use, but there was no change in the subservience of Wales to England, whether that was justified or not User:Garryq 18:38, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I'm afraid it's true. Wales was legally and nominally part of England. User:Deb 18:45, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC) == Some school histories... == I'm English and certainly in England we don't start our histories at 1066 although it's the one year everyone knows in this country. I consider the statement "This may be because the English are proud of their long history of independence, and therefore like to start the clock after the last successful invasion." to be nothing more than another Mel Gibson inspired (see 'The Patriot' & 'Braveheart') dig at the English. It certainly adds absolutely nothing positive to an article about England. It may be that in other countries they start English history at 1066 but everyone in England is taught to be proud of both King Alfred (pre 1066) and the fact that William the Conqueror was the last person to successfully invade. We're certainly too proud of our long history to shorten it by 200 years! These are the reasons that I am deleting this line. I don't agree with the first line ("Some school histories of England...") either. This certainly is not true in England but I can't speak for other countries. That's why I'm not deleting that line. This is the first time I've posted anything on this excellent website so please tell me if I'm doing anything wrong. I'm eager to learn. I've read the NPOV description and I think this comes under that heading. STAN Agree with you about the line in question. There is a sense in which the statement is true, but it is not the sense in which most people would read it, which I think justifes its removal. History, technically speaking, is not "what happened" but rather "the record of what happened". The Normans were excellent documenters, and from 1066 onwards we have huge quantities of factual data about life in England upon which to base our analysis. Records of pre-conquest England, on the other hand, are extremely patchy at best. Much of what we are taught about Alfred, for example, seems to have been first documented long after his death, and very little about him can be established with certainty. Many (although not all) historians have believed that their job is to establish facts through the interpretation of historical documents, and they have no mandate to speculate about events that were not documented. Turning now to the other sense of "history", there was a time when English public (ie. posh private) schools did teach history starting with the conqueror. This was mainly because they were run by and for the aristocracy, who claimed mostly Norman descent and didn't consider what had come before their arrival to be part of their own history. But you are quite correct that it is a long time since English schoolchildren have been taught that nothing happened before 1066, and very few English people today labour under this illusion! Another reason to remove the line in question is that, despite what is still taught in English schools, the last successful invasion was not in 1066. There seems to be no doubt that William of Orange invaded 1688, but he used the old usurper's trick of pretending it had never happened and that he had acquired the throne by peaceful means..... BTW, your approach to editing (to think carefully, consider points of view, edit confidently and explain why) is impeccable, and if you carry on like this you'll be a highly valued contributor. Welcome to Wikipedia! User:Cambyses 16:06, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC) RE: William of Orange, he was invited over be the English parliament, so technically didn't invade. Also James fled wiothout a fight. User:Grunners 04:48, 17 May 2004 (UTC) Many invading forces in history have had the support of certain factions within the political system of the invaded country, but it doesn't negate the fact of the invasion. Parliament wasn't (and still isn't, for that matter) legally the sovereign body, and it had no legal authority to depose the monarch or choose a new one. The fact that James fled doesn't make it any less of an invasion, either. The Polish president fled the 1939 German invasion, but very few people deny that it was an invasion..... Best wishes, User:Cambyses 01:58, 19 May 2004 (UTC) == Independent Nation? == "It is of interest to note that England is far from being an independent nation since it has no national government, has no currency of its own, has no armed forces, etc". Surely this is a confusing sentence to include. All the things mentioned represent Great Britain and seeing as England is part of Great Britain they must represent England too. True enough they are shared with the other British nations but to say England is far from independent is misleading as it is not ruled by any other country. The thought also occurs that the sentence quoted above is equally applicable to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (except for the bit about national governments, although their power is limited) but if we were to say 'Scotland is far from being an independent nation' for the above reasons it would be deleted instantaniously and rightly so. Surely therefore it shouldn't be included on the England page? User:Pazzer 31 May 2004 Agree that deleting it is a good idea, since it confuses two distinct concepts - those of being a nation and of being independent. According to the definition in the nation article (which I think is reasonable, and which we should in any case try to be consistent with), being a nation is nothing to do with independence. Rather "a nation is a group of people sharing aspects of their language, culture and/or ethnicity". By this definition, England and Wales would seem to be nations. (Scotland and NI, for different reasons, could perhaps be described as two nations each, but that is another story!). I think it would, on the other hand, be both fair and accurate to make it clear that England is not an independent ''state'', since it is governed as part of a larger state. Best wishes, User:Cambyses 00:55, 31 May 2004 (UTC) ==Official Languages== Since there seems to be a certain amount of disagreement about 'Official Languages', it might be good to post a reference or explain why it is not 'Official Languages: English and Welsh', which is what most people would assume. At the very least, if there is some bizarre reason why there are no official languages then an entry 'de facto English and Welsh' should be added. User:DJ Clayworth 19:15, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC) :Why would anyone assume that the national languages of England are English and Welsh? As far as I know, there are no official figures on the number of Welsh speakers in England (the Welsh language question wasn't asked outside Wales), but you hardly run into Welsh speakers everywhere you go in England. :As far as I'm aware, the closest thing that comes to an establishment of Welsh as an official language is the Welsh Language Act 1993 [http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1993/Ukpga_19930038_en_1.htm]. This doesn't actually prescribe an official language; it only says that the two languages must be treated equally. Even if it did prescribe an official language, it only applies to Wales, and not England. User:Marnanel 19:42, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC) :Agree with all that Marnanel, there is little scope for disagreement and the anon adding welsh to the article is plainly wrong. As for "bizarre", it's not really not so bizarre - England is just that old. :Finally about listing "de facto" languages... rest assured that welsh would come a looong way down the list of languages spoken in England ordered by number of speakers! User:Pcb21 User_talk:Pcb21 15:37, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC) The Welsh Language Act requires public bodies to treat Welsh or English equally when providing services in Wales. Whether or not this makes any language official is irrelevant to this article. Asda and Cornwall County Council are promoting the use of Cornish but this does not make them official, even if my POV does want it to be so. No act of parliament has prescribed an offical language; but if it did it then it will need the Queen, whose title was officially proclaimed in Latin, to give her assent, which is given in Norman French. Anybody want to add these to the official language list ;) --User:Garryq 21:08, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC) User:WikiUser 19:20, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) - Re "Removed well known factual error which is also of course racist against the English." SOURCE: General knowledge of anyone born before 1960 and: www.visitbritain.com: "VisitBritain funded by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport was launched in July 1999 as a transformation of the existing English Tourist Board. VisitBritain is therefore a strategic body brokering partnerships,setting standards,developing policy, providing research and forecasts and championing issues at the highest level. VisitBritain's Press and PR department produces press releases for journalists." ADDED User:WikiUser 19:47, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) - "Languages spoken in Britain There are two official languages in Britain; English and Welsh. Although not an offical language, Scottish Gaelic is spoken in some parts of Scotland, as well as English. " http://www.visitbritain.com/facts_figures/language.htm :Okay, and what does that have to do with whether Welsh is an official language of England? User:Marnanel 19:42, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) User:WikiUser 19:47, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) - What you arguing for. I'm editing the page and tellin people why in the appropiate place like everyone else does. JUST WHAT IS IT WITH YOU PEOPLE YOU THINK I'M JEWISH OR SOMETHIN? England doesn't have a SEPARATE official language because England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all one cunry. It called The U.K. -heard of it? ::There is no national language of the UK, and no national language of England. The Welsh Language Act does give some status to Welsh (although whether it makes Welsh "official" is debatable), but that Act only applies within Wales. It has no force in England. Therefore I reverted your changes. (Incidentally, I find your comments about Judaism extremely offensive.) User:Marnanel 19:58, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) WikiUser responded to this with a further off-topic rant filled with invective and personal abuse. I reverted this to remove it from the talk page. --User:Michael Snow 20:44, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) User:WikiUser 20:12, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC) - You have no right under the wikipedia guidlelines to censor my views and prevent users discussing things here. "Only my friends can discuss the articles here" is not a part of the wikipedia guidelines. TO Marnanel: As I said before it was fascistly censored I find your antisemitic comment to me offensive and it is also illegal to post it on a UK carried web site under the Race Relations Act. :Since you deleted the suggestions that Michael and I made on your talk page, let me reproduce them here: ::Regarding your edits to Talk:England - I removed your most recent statements there, as they had little relationship to the topic of the article, and were filled with needless invective and personal abuse. Please do not post material of this type on talk pages. If you continue to do so, I will have to ask someone to block you from editing. --User:Michael Snow 20:48, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) ::For the record - so that nobody can say you weren't warned - I'd like to invite you to read Wikipedia: Wikiquette and Wikipedia:Civility. Repeated violations of these policies, especially regarding civility, are not well regarded in these parts. -- User:ChrisO 00:44, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC) :As for your complaints (Race Relations Act indeed!), you are clearly either a loon or a troll. Nobody takes you seriously, nobody is going to let you add inaccurate claims to article pages and - if you had bothered to read it, which I'm sure you hadn't - Wikipedia:Civility gave other editors the right to delete the illiterate, hate-filled, spittle-flecked rant that you posted last night. You've had your warning now so I suggest that you either grow up and start making positive contributions, or go somewhere else. -- User:ChrisO 22:27, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC) User:WikiUser 17:57, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC) - With regard to the 11 lines of garbage above from the loons and trolls and childish liars Michael Snow and ChrisO it's great as further evidence of all I've been saying about their misuse of The Wikipedia. As usual I've recorded it along with all other "histories" as a record to use against the owners of The Wikipedia. == National Anthem == I seperated "National Anthem" into de facto and unofficial because not only would God Save the Queen thought of by most people as the national anthem but is the one used whenever national anthem is specified to be played - military regulations don't refer to "God Save the Queen" or "Royal Anthem" --User:Garryq 18:22, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC) :But the military is the military of the UK; there is no English military. User:DJ Clayworth 17:52, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::My point concerned the style given to the anthem when its playing is prescribed. --User:Garryq 22:17, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC) Should not we be talking of a ''state song'' rather the a national anthem, which is an attribute of a sovereign state? --User:Garryq 22:17, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC) ==Flag== "The red cross acted as a symbol for Crusaders in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries AD and was subsequently used as a national flag until 1606 when it became a component of the Union Flag for Great Britain. At that time period, the Republic of Guinea used it also." I don't think there was a Republic of Guinea in 1606, and the modern flag of Guinea does not have any cross. Am I missing something here? User:Gzornenplatz 23:18, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC) :I cannot find a reference to Guinea at this time either, further the proclamation of 1606 onle defeined the flags to be worn by shipos at sea, --User:Garryq 15:30, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::I found it, it was the Republic of Genoa that had the same flag! User:Gzornenplatz 16:45, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC) The Republic of Georgia also use it, slightly altered withj an extra four tidgy crosses. Also how come it is St.George's cross and not some other saint?[Jimmyjimpson] ---- ==National anthem== (18th June '04) I have removed the mention of "national anthem". I have been meaning to do this since I discovered Wikipedia many months ago, so I have not edited without thought. Please note this is a factual edit. England can have no national anthem as the countries of the U.K. are not nations. The nation is the U.K. and the national anthem is "God Save The Queen". This should be put on the U.K. page only. Also there can be no such thing as a recognised (or easily agreed on un-official anthem), so if people feel there are candidates for such a thing they should try putting this in a contribution to the main text. - WikiUser. :indeed. A good reference here is the Commonwealth Games where each of the 'home countries' (who compete separately) use a different anthem and none use GStQ. Don't recall what they ''do'' use though! --User:VampWillow 20:43, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::Well, the England national football team certainly do use God Save the Queen, at least the last time I checked... User:Morwen - User_talk:Morwen 20:45, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::The Scottish certainly don't though! CHecking about the Commonwealth Games, btw, I find ''Land of Hope and Glory'' for England [http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2843-365620,00.html para 5], [http://david.national-anthems.net/eng.htm] & [http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/stories/poem_act/anthems.html], ''Flower of Scotland'' for, uh, Scotland. Wales use ''"Hen wlad fy nhadau" (Land of my Fathers)'' and Northern Ireland ''"A Londonderry Air"''. --User:VampWillow 21:08, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) I have often found it strange that when England play a football or rugby match they use the UK national anthem. No wonder people in Wales and Scotland have a problem with this. What happens when England and Wales play each other at a rugby match? - Wales sings the Welsh national anthem and England sings the British national anthem (which technically includes Wales)- what a muddle! - no wonder people in Wales see the British national anthem as an English anthem. This has nothing do with whether you believe England or Britain are countries or independent etc etc. it is just a matter of having the correct anthem which fits the country. The anthem should fit the country being represented - If you are going to have an English football team they should sing an English anthem, A British team should use a British anthem etc. ::::Replaced "Anthems" (not "National Anthems") England is not an independent state, but to claim that is not a nation is contrary to common sense. You are also denying the nationhood of the other peoples of the UK in doing this. This is very dodgy ground. By extension you are denying nationhood to Kurds, Palestinians, Tibetans (and a few years ago) to East Timorese, Latvians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians etc. A nation does not necessarily equate to a state, or vice versa. You need to understand that the UK is a mystical union: A Nation made up of Nations, and a Country made up of Countries. -- Simon Hedges User:WikiUser 20:46, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC) - You've got it completely the wrong way round. The U.K. is the real thing and the idea that England etc. are nations is the myth. But stop using the Wikipedia to call me racist. I'm not denying nationhood to anyone. If you don't like what I say get the British people and the government to change it. Some people would argue that the UK was just an economic union between Scotland and England (similar to a union such as the European Union) that helped Scotland to participate in the activities of the Empire that England had developed, and that now the empire has gone there is no longer any use for it and people are reverting back to the old nations of England and Scotland (the inclusion of Wales can't really be called a union as they didn't really have much say in the matter, although it is debatable whether Scotland was forced into the union of 1707)--User:217.43.204.34 11:11, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC) :The government seems to think that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are countries: [http://www.pmo.gov.uk/output/Page823.asp]. That page also uses the adjective "national" to describe something applying only to England, strongly implying that they think they are nations as well. So, whatever you do, don't call upon the British government to support your silly claims. User:Proteus User_talk:Proteus 21:00, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC) User:WikiUser 16:39, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC) - Hey cut the godamn abuse ok. I'm not your slave. If you can't use the Wikipedia without abusing people then don't use it. Hey! funny proteus abuses the guidelines and yet no group multi attack from ChrisO and all the other clique that own the "England" page? Curious. Had your "talk" page filled with abuse by the above WikiPedia owners yet? No! Funny!! And what makes you think that I; "called upon the British government to support my facts"? It's Simon Hedges that's wanting things changed not me. :I certainly wasn't abusive, but if that's the way you conduct discussions I wouldn't be surprised if people are rude to you. Oh, and: ''what makes you think that I; "called upon the British government to support my facts"?'' "If you don't like what I say get the British people and the government to change it." User:Proteus User_talk:Proteus 16:53, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC) ==Notice of request for arbitration against abuse by chrisO.== User:WikiUser 20:38, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC) - I want to note that chrisO keeps erasing all my hard work when I have followed all guidelines, in removing factual innacuracies and racist comments against my country. I am applying for arbitration from his abusive behaviour, breaking all Wikipedia guidelines as he is obviously just indulging in vandalism and abuse. "The best way to resolve a dispute is to avoid it in the first place. Be respectful to others and their points of view (for some guidelines, see Wikiquette). " User:WikiUser 20:50, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC) - Removed factual error by vandle chrisO. "England does not have an official anthem of its own but ''and did those feet in ancient time'' and ''Land of Hope and Glory'' are both widely regarded - unofficially - as English national hymns (although the latter more properly refers to Great Britain, not just England). " They are in fact as any schoolchild knows regarded nationally as songs asssociated with Britain and The British Empire. Years ago, during the heyday of the British Empire, the word England was often used to mean not just England, but Britain and even the British Empire. (Which came out of the perceived superiority of the English nation over the rest of the British Isles and the Empire and a strong belief in English-style of government and culture which led to English culture and values being forced onto other countries (eg. suppressing the Welsh language) in the hope of making these countries more English). The legacy of this is still with us as many people still use the words 'England', 'Britain' and 'UK' interchangeably. --User:Cap 15:08, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC) ::Eh ? The last two lines of Jerusalem are "Till we have built Jerusalem, In England's green and pleasant land." - sound's like it's about England to me. User:Mintguy User talk: Mintguy 21:20, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::and ''Land of Hope and Glory'' is used as the English anthem at the Commonwealth Games (where the four British nations compete independently). Perhaps ''any schoolchild'' is ill-informed, and not a good source for compiling encyclopedia articles. - User:MykReeve 21:24, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::::and WikiUser was evidently asleep during the England-Croatia match (and all other English football internationals), where "God Save The Queen" is played as the de facto national anthem of England. Also, why on earth is s/he objecting to the assertion that "Blighty" is a term for England? Might I suggest a look in the Oxford English Dictionary? -- User:ChrisO 21:37, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC) User:WikiUser 20:04, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC) - FULL version from my last edit note. (See England "history" page.): " Restored to more factual version before vandalism and breach of guidelines by chrisO and others, and removed some factual errors and racist comment -- Jwrosenzweig, you're cutting material that is factual and you haven't discussed it in talk. You are lying. You know full well that I HAVE discussed it on "talk" and included detailed records on each change. You are also breaking the Wikipedia guidelines by subjecting me to personal abuse: "- don't try to sneak it past by claiming Chris is a "vandle" [sic]" " I wish to inform Wikipedia users that the following people are breaking the Wikipedia guidelines; MykReeve, ChrisO and Jwrosenzweig. Also that I have applied for arbitration on the "England" page- despite the abusive message posted by ChrisO saying I was lying about that - and also users should note that sensible discussion on this page is being prevented because the above named are abusing me if I try to discuss my changes to the page. :I see no abuse, just disagreement. I think these deletions and changes are too extreme to leave in place without more discussion. This needs to be worked out here before these changes are made IMO -- User:Sannse User talk:Sannse 20:22, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC) User:WikiUser 20:38, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC) - You haven't even bothered to read this page, with the relative material even though it's only a couple of inches above your "comment". The changes are minor and involve basic facts that all English people over 12 would be expected to know. ::WikiUser, I reject the assertion that I was lying -- I don't see any discussion preceding your edits, just a note announcing them. You haven't given anything that resembles detailed evidence that I can see -- you continue to assert that "any child knows" what you are asserting, a fact in serious dispute by several editors who have marshaled some evidence in support. I am sorry you feel I personally abused you -- I had no intention of doing so. However, you referred to a good editor (ChrisO) who was and is acting in good faith as a "vandle" in an edit summary -- this remains in public display permanently, and cannot be erased. I was upset by this, and may have spoken more harshly than I should have, for which I apologize. I will, however, continue to insist that serious and solid evidence be offered here to justify the changes you are making. Appeals to common sense are not enough, particularly since others have provided evidence which contradicts your claims. I look forward to seeing your evidence, and promise to remain open-minded as to the question of whether or not you are right. I simply need to see more evidence. User:Jwrosenzweig 21:01, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC) ---- WikiUser and others: Before we start going to formal arbitration, lets see if we can sort this out by simple discussion. WikiUser, you seem to have deleted some chunks of text because you think they are wrong. Please explain what is wrong with them here. Be precise. For whoever added the text, please explain why you think it is right. Please think about the possibility that rather than just deleting text because it contains ''some'' errors, maybe it could be replaced with something slightly different. Please also come up with references to back up what you say ("It's obvious" isn't going to be helpful.) If you have examples of when these songs, or these terms, were used, say so here. User:DJ Clayworth 20:54, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC) == Royal Motto is "Dieu et mon droit", right? == User:212.251.91.238 changed the motto section from: :''Royal motto: Dieu et mon droit (God and my right)'' into :''Royal motto: Honi soit qui mal y pense (French language: Shamed be he who thinks ill of it)'' Now, as far as I can see, the latter is the motto of the Order of the Garter only, and the former is the motto of the monarch. As such, the former should be in the article, right? Am I wrong? —User:Gabbe 20:51, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC) : I think so, yes. : User:Jdforrester User_talk:Jdforrester 21:11, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC) I have a feeling that "Dieu et mon droit" is the motto of the Princes of Wales. But I'm prepared to be proved wrong! : Don't know if [http://www.britainusa.com/faq/showfaq.asp?SID=354 this] helps at all. User:Icundell 17:18, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC) :The motto of the PoW is "Ich dien" ("I serve"). -- User:ChrisO 17:27, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC) : "Ich Dien" is also found on a tuppence. I don't know why. "Dieu et mon droit" is the soverign's motto and "Honi soit qui mal y pense" (Evil to Him Who Evil Thinks)is the motto of the Order of the Garter. Why a garter? --EF ::Because the design of the 2p is the Prince of Wales' Feathers. -- User:Arwel Parry 09:21, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC) THE REASON THE ROYAL MOTTO IS "DIEU ET MON DROIT" IS BECAUSE THE FIRST MONARCH OF THE COUNTRY OF ENGLAND WAS FROM FRANCE. AND THE REAL MEANING OF "HONI SOIT QUI MAL Y PENSE" IS "SHAME ON HIM WHO THINKS EVIL OF IT". == "the City of London is small but the city of London is a city not a town" == User:Pcb21 said: the City of London is small but the city of London is a city not a town Is that true? Does London (in the sense of the place that Livingston is the mayor of) actually have city status? User:Marnanel 20:28, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::Yes. ;-) --User:VampWillow 20:36, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC) :In the sense of "a place with a Royal Charter making it a city", no, but it's certainly not a town (it contains many towns, and a couple of cities to boot). It's not a County, either (the County of London was, but that's been abolished). I'm not sure there really is a word to describe its official status. User:Proteus User_talk:Proteus 21:53, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::Its an 'administrative area'. It indeed doesn't have official city status, but that doesn't mean its not a city. However, if we were being pedantic, it doesn't have town status either, so say that is not really a city, but is just a large town, is pedantic ''and'' self-inconsistent. User:Morwen - User_talk:Morwen 11:31, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::::Of course, in terms of being 'self-inconsistent', the 'City' known worldwide as 'London' (ie.the conurbation) containing two 'Cities' ('of London' and 'of Westminster') is fully consistent with the country/nation 'United Kingdom' containing four countries/nations 'England', 'Scotland', 'Wales', (Northern) Ireland', so perfectly reasonable really for the UK! --User:VampWillow 15:15, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC) ''Does London (in the sense of the place that Livingston is the mayor of) actually have city status?'' :No. The honour of "City" belongs to the square mile. But the conurbation has been known informally as a city for decades. Parliament considered the 19th century's "Great Stink" a London problem even though they are based in Westminster, and London County was some years in the future. --User:Garryq 22:06, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::It is listed as a city on List of cities in the United Kingdom. User:Rmhermen 19:04, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC) :::That's the City of London, a small area ("the Square Mile") inside London. User:Proteus User_talk:Proteus 21:28, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::::Let's not that other city around the corner, the City of Westminster. All this is legally true, but it would be peverse to exclude greater London from a list of cities for this reason. User:Mark Richards 18:17, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC) ===London not the Capital=== Whilst London is clearly the capital of the United Kingdom, England unlike Wales and Scotland which have Cardiff and Edinburgh respectively, does doesn't have a capital of its own. So the England Page is incorrect to state that London is the capital of England, because it isn't. If it were, it would be the capital of two places at the same time, which is greedy. * This is just silly. Of course London is the capital of England. User:JeremyA 14:38, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC) England hasn't had it's own government nor administration of any sort since the act of union so it doesn't have a capital city. London is the capital of the UK, but not England. It's not silly, it's a historical and political fact. * I am English, London is my capital city! It may be possible to argue that London is not the political capital of England (a mute point as London is the place to which English people send there elected representatives) but it is definitely the historical, traditional and ceremonial capital. Just like Edinburgh and Cardiff remained the repective capitals of Scotland and Wales despite the fact that they too, until recently, were governed entirely from London. The Encyclopedia Britannica agrees with me on this point and a web search reveals that a large number of other people do too. User:JeremyA 18:02, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC) :Oh FFS ... this talk page gets more and more ridiulous sometimes! Firstly, London *is* the capital of the country of England, it is *also* the capital of the (conjoined states / country / call it what you will) of the United Kingdom &c. Whilst the Westminster Parliament is a parliament of the UK it is *also* the parliament of England (but long and involved reasons doesn't sit separately for each guise). Frankly I wish these silly arguments *were* a "mute point" but they aren't even a "moot point" worthy of all this discussion ... --User:VampWillow:User_talk:VampWillow 18:13, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC) The wikipedia definition of a capital is as follows: "In politics a capital (also called capital city or political capital — although the latter phrase has an alternative meaning based on an alternative meaning of "capital") is the principal city or town associated with its government. It is almost always the city which physically encompasses the offices and meeting places of the seat of government and fixed by law." No way does England have a government, a seat of government or any offices of government which are for England alone, only stuff for London and for the UK. English people send representatives to the UK parliament, which is in London, and also to the EU parliament but that doesn't make Strasbourg or Brussels the capital of England either. Just because it's a popular misconception that England = UK and therefore London is capital of (UK/England) doesn't make it true and I have yet to read any argument to the contrary which stands up to scrutiny. ''(above by Aroberts)''' :Om governmental terms, "England" and "UK" can be considered as overlapping/co-terminus from the England standpoint, indede the "UK" provides a 'special case' on the whole multi-nation nation state thing but I'm getting very sorely tempted to state "DFTT". --User:VampWillow:User_talk:VampWillow 19:55, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Angles / Saxons == In editing the opening paragraph on the name "England," I tried to tone down the decisive language which asserted that the divide between Celtic and mainland European languages' name for England (Saxon-origin vs. Angle-origin) derived from their different points of contact -- since the theory doesn't seem to hold water. Problems with it: 1) the Saxons weren't (as stated) the inhabitants of SE England (and hence the gateways of mainland trade routes)-- SE England included Saxons (Sussex and Essex) and Jutes (Kent). I suppose there was probably East Anglian seafaring too -- but surely not more so than from London or Dover! 2) The theory doesn't account for the BIG question -- why does English itself refer to "Angles" and not "Saxons"? Until I see evidence otherwise, it seems quite likely to me that Angleterre is derived by analogy from an already existing word "England." So, basically, if somebody has a source on this jump in; but until then, I prefer less ambitious language. User:Doops 21:20, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC) I think that the words 'Angle' and 'Saxon' are more cultural than anything - Saxons (from Jutland) and Angles (from Schleswig-Holstein) and the other ethnic groups from Europe became intermixed when they arrived in Britian and even though the different kingdoms may have considered themselves to be either Angle or Saxon the actual ethnic make-up of these groups is more complex. Also, it is often said that the Welsh/British were driven towards what became Wales and Cornwall but this is misleading. It is unlikely that there were enough Saxon/English immigrants to replace the whole Celtic population or to drive them away. What is more likely is that there were enough English immigrants for them to be ''culturally dominant'' which means that the Celtic population was in a minority, and their culture became absorbed into the dominant culture of the Saxons and people of Celtic origin gradually adopted the English language and culture.--User:Cap 11:53, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC) :I think that claim that the Celtic languages derive their names from the Saxons, and the mainlanders from the Angles is hogwash, anyway! In the case of Welsh it's totally untrue, since the Welsh name ''Lloegr'' derives from neither the Angles nor the Saxons, but is, I think, the name the country was known as before the bloody immigrants arrived :). The ''Matter of Britain'' refers to the place as Logres, too. That doesn't stop us from deriving our names for everything else English from the Saxons, of course. -- User:Arwel Parry 02:36, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC) == Country or nation? == I am keen to avoid opening a can of worms here, as I know some people get quite worked up about these things (I've just been catching up with the WikiUser saga), but which term is best? I am aware that some may feel it's important not to mislead uninformed readers into thinking England is an ''independant state'' and so would think country is best avoided. However, Scotland opens with the sentence: "Scotland, or in Gaelic, Alba, is a country (formerly an independent kingdom) of northwest Europe, occupying the northern third of the island of Great Britain." I'm quite happy to think of Scotland as a country even though I know very well it's not an independant state, but if Scotland can be accurately described as a country surely England is no different. If no one has any objections I will change nation to country in the sentence: "England is the largest, the most populous, and the most densely populated nation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, occupying the south-eastern portion of the island of Great Britain." Am I just going over old ground here, or was the phrasing arbitrarily chosen some time ago and since been assumed to be authoritative? — User:Trilobite User_talk:Trilobite 12:18, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC) You might like to have a look at 'The Isles: A History' by Norman Davies - (one of the main purposes of the book is to get away from traditional anglo-centric history which often confuses England with Britain and assumes that Scottish and Welsh history is part of English history, but at the same time ignores them except when they affect England.) He makes it clear at every stage of the book exactly which country he is talking about and his introduction is a criticism of library catalogues which say confusing things such as <>.
For a great example of an anglocentric history see the preface to AJP Taylors 'English History 1914-45'(Oxford History of England) he says that to him the word England means England and Wales, Great Britain; the United Kingdom and the British Empire. He then goes on to say that he can't understand why Scottish people have a problem with this definition! (and then adds insult to injury by explaining why he should use the term Scotch for a Scottish person even though he acknowledges that they find this offensive!) He then goes on to explain that he will stick to ENglish history and where the Welsh, 'Scotch', and Irish have they same history as the English he includes them. - ie. Scottish, Welsh and Irish history only matters when it directly affects England. Therefore he includes Wales, Scotland and Ireland under the term England but then only includes them when they affect England.
The fact of the matter is, that though some people might see a distinction between the words 'country' and 'nation', they are infact synonymous. Look one up in the dictionary and it will list the other one. Some people might say that England is a country and that the United kingdom is a nation and others may say that the United Kingdom is a country and England is a nation. I don't think it it entirely incorrect to say one or the other. User:Mintguy User talk: Mintguy 13:15, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think the word 'country' could be used to describe just an area of land, hundreds of years ago when travel was much more difficult people used the word country to describe a local area and people in one part of England might refer to another county as a 'foreign country'
'nation' implies a group of people eg. the English people make up the English nation. although this is obviously a more problematic term - depending on whether you are talking about an 'ethnic' group of people (and how do you define if someone is of a particular ethnic group) or a 'civic' idea of nation (such as the UK)where everyone who lives in the geographic area of the UK can be called British regardless of their actual ethnic origin. (although this is just my interpretation and the terms probably have developed more than one meaning and even conflicting meanings over time so it would probably be impossible to use the words accurately without someone misinterpreting you!) The BBC guidelines for their newsreaders is that Britain isn't a nation only Wales, England, Scotland (not sure about Northern Ireland! - a province?)- ie. newsreaders wouldn't be able to refer to the UK as a nation.
: Also, this article is about the England-before-the-unification-with-Wales, not the England on the same terms as that that Scotland is talking about; the article on that is at England and Wales (that is, Scotland, England, and Wales aren't independent countries, but Wales and England are even less independent than Scotland, as it were).
: In short, it's a great big huge mess.
: User:Jdforrester User_talk:Jdforrester 19:10, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
There have been so many different changes in the make-up of the UK througout history that to be accurate you'd have to refer to them as separate entities. In 'The Isles: A History' Norman Davies lists all the different states that the British Isles have accommodated. It is a huge list. off the top of my head there was England (pre 1282 conquest of Welsh principality); England (with principality of Wales 1282 onwards); England (with the rest of Wales 1536 onwards); Great Britain (1707 onwards); United Kingdom (Great Britain and Ireland, 1801 on); Great Britain and Northern Ireland (1922 onward) this is only a fraction of them and the list got a lot more complex than this!
== Demographics ==
I fear that, in working so hard to make the "demographics" section balanced and accurate, we've inflated the question of "Englishness" into excessive prominence. (I'm certainly a guilty party.) Shouldn't a demographics section really be talking more about the urban/rural shift, the north-south economic divide, levels of education and home ownership -- real demographic stuff like that -- and less about issues of terminology? User:Doops 23:27, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
:You're right. I too thought this note about identity didn't belong in the demographics section, particularly as it is continually growing to fit the complex reality of what "Englishness" is. I would like to see it split off from this section and put on its own under a new heading, but I don't know what, nor how far down the page it should be. — User:Trilobite User_talk:Trilobite 23:46, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Pigsonthewing, while perhaps you're right in saying that the paragraph you deleted needed more work, I have to contest your claim that it was POV. It went out of its way to be objective. User:Doops 02:23, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)
i must agree!!!!!!!
==England not a country?==
Since when is England no longer a country. It is no longer a "state" but that does not mean it is not a country. A country is "A tract or expanse of land of undefined extent; a region, district" ([http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00052212?query_type=word&queryword=country&edition=2e&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&result_place=1&search_id=bm6U-sBJkKW-1143&hilite=00052212 OED online])--User:Cap 01:53, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC) or more specifically "The territory or land of a nation; usually an independent state, or a region once independent and still distinct in race, language, institutions, or historical memories, as ''England'', Scotland, and Ireland, in the United Kingdom, etc." (OED online)
I also brought this up at User talk:Jdforrester#Changes_to_England. — User:Trilobite User_talk:Trilobite 01:57, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
: The "country" of England is England and Wales (''i.e.'', the land of the former nations of England and Wales unified into a new country called "England", which unified with Scotland in 1707; this article, being about the bounds of the former country of England before 1536, should not think to confuse itself with the country of England post-1536, which was considerably larger. I was going by the prevalent terminology on Wikipedia, as the terms "country", "state", and "nation" are often used interchangably and there is no real fixed definition of the differences betwixt them, but here it seems generally used as "state" being a definition of a country as a legal entity, the "country" being a physical and political entity, and "nation" being an ethnic and/or former political entity. However, I'm more than happy to be corrected, as this somewhat tortuous definition seems somewhat... confusing.
: AFAIAA, however, the one thing that Northern Ireland isn't is a "country", nor former-country; the legal term for the 4 different bits of the UK is "part", as mentioned elsewhere (on the UK's talk page, IIRC).
: User:Jdforrester User_talk:Jdforrester 02:12, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
:You say that this article deals only with Pre 1536 England but the article talks about England after this date aswell. Is this article about the "part" of the UK called England or the State of England? Why does the history section say "For the history of England after that date, [1707] see History of the United Kingdom."?
The Northern Ireland page describes NI as one of the "home Nations" surely this is incorrect? It is "part" of the Irish nation not a nation in its own right?
: As you will see from my edits to Home Nations, it's considered one of the "Home Nations" and yet not actually a nation. Which is a curiosity.
: User:Jdforrester User_talk:Jdforrester 03:12, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
A lot of people appear to think that there's some sort of objective truth here. Give it up! Precise legal interpretations are often patently absurd, on the one hand (and usually impossible anyway in UK matters since the constitution is such a loveably ad-hoc hodge-podge); conventional wisdom, on the other, is frequently flat-out wrong. Neither is trustworthy; the best we can do is write readable articles which are as accurate as possible. In almost every context, I can't see anything wrong with calling England a nation, a country, or even kingdom — only in a paragraph about constitutional arrangements do we need to cavil over words which don't (after all) necessarily have a single, fixed meaning. User:Doops 05:44, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
:This makes sense to me. We can call it a country in the introduction and when talking generally, and then explain somewhere in the article its precise legal status, which is of course rather complicated. The Scotland article calls Scotland a country, and while I understand the argument I don't think the 1536 union with Wales prevents us from doing the same with England. One more thing: if England was to have its Devolved English Parliament reinstated would it be legitimate to call it a national parliament, or would we only be able to call it the parliament of a somewhat arbitrary part of England and Wales, i.e. all of England and Wales not under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Assembly. — User:Trilobite User_talk:Trilobite 07:54, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
: Interesting question. Of course, "England" isn't going to get its own Parliament, so it's somewhat hypothetical, but it would be a supra-regional sub-national governmental level body, which doesn't exactly roll off the tongue :-)
: User:Jdforrester User_talk:Jdforrester 08:49, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
== English nation ==
Please check out English nation and see if you agree with my comments on its talk page. User:Doops 17:21, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
== Land Area Statistics ==
Hello,
I wish to know where you can obtain statistics for land area on the census 2001 site? (such as how many sq km's a area is)
I can find population quite easily, but cannot seem to find area, and it must be possible because there is the land area mentioned for each subdivision on this site.
:That would probably be because land area is not part of the remit of the Census, which is to do with population. User:Icundell 23:25, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
then where can i find the land area information?
:Try here [http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/freefun/geofacts/ Ordance Survey geofacts page]
==Hacker?==
From http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=England&diff=10044713&oldid=10044127 here in edit history it looks like edits done but not listed in history. A hacker? Or admin with a master key? or what?User:WikiUser 18:00, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
:I'm very confused by what you're trying to say. Can you try and reword and make it clearer please? User:Violetriga User_talk:violetriga 18:08, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
:Huh? What do you mean? Since then there have been 5 edits - 1 correction of a "Britian" typo and 2 vandalism attacks and reversions. Everything looks normal. -- User:Arwel Parry 18:19, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
::Actually it was the Invisible Pink Unicorn at work. Since she's invisible (and pink) it follows that anything she does must also be invisible (and pink)... -- User:ChrisO 19:19, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
==Capital of England==
I see Aroberts is insisting again that England doesn't have a capital. This is, of course, wrong. England is a geographical region, not an administrative entity; constitutionally it comprises the larger part of the entity called "England and Wales" (which is legally and administratively separate from Scotland and Northern Ireland). When the UK was created, E&W's national institutions didn't disappear from London - the High Court and all the other top-level legal institutions remain here. It's also wrong to assert that "the Westminster parliament became the British parliament and left England without one". The Westminster parliament ''absorbed'' the Scottish one but continued to deal with England and Wales business as well. Now that devolution has taken place, most Scottish legislation is handled in Edinburgh, but all England and Wales legislation is handled in the same place as it always was - in Westminster. -- User:ChrisO
:I agree. London is the capital of England and the United Kingdon.
If London was the capital of England before the union with Scotland then won't it still be the capital of England after it, providing that no legislation was passed stating otherwise? User:REX 17:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:Well, technically both the kingdoms of England and Scotland were abolished in 1707, so strictly neither would have a capital and London became the capital of the Kingdom of Great Britain, but I don't think I want to get into an argument with any Scots about the status of Edinburgh! :) Wales, of course, has only had a formal capital since 1955... -- User:Arwel Parry 01:00, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:: And England of course, still doesn't have one. If an English parliament were to be set up there's no reason to assume it would be located in London, indeed somewhere more central and less congested would make more sense, such as Leicester perhaps or Coventry. --User:Aroberts 09:48, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is getting silly. It is common knowledge that London is the capital of England. All encyclopaedias say so all atlases say so; all English people say so. It is true that constitutionally England does not exist, but when it existed as an independent state London was its capital, it didn’t have a constitution which said so, is just was. When England was incorporated into Great Britain, England was abolished as a state. Therefore this article shouldn’t contain data since 1707 on the area that once was England; it shouldn’t state that the Church of England is the state church, given that there is no state; it shouldn’t show a flag; it shouldn’t show the Royal motto etc. And yet it does, because these things all exist ''unofficially'' as in many other countries, such as Israel and the Isle of Man. User:REX 14:15, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
: I think there's a persistent misunderstanding here. England was not abolished in 1707. If you want to be nitpicky, England as a singular entity was abolished in 1543, when England and Wales was established. The key point is that E and W still exists, and its capital and constitutional institution (parliament, courts etc) are still located in London, just as they always were. England is a geographical area; England and Wales is the political entity (to be exact, Wales is a province of England under the Acts of Union 1536-1543. Aroberts is quite simply wrong on this score. -- User:ChrisO
::Ok, so now you are telling me that London is the capital of the UK and also of an entity called "England and Wales", and that England is merely a geographical area. You will note that the page this discussion relates to is called England and not England and Wales and yet it contains information which would appear to relate to a policical entity such as Capital - London which by your account is surely incorrect and needs t be changed without this persistent unjustifed reversion.
This is not funny anymore. At first I thought this was someone practicing the Be Bold encouragement. Now it is clear that it is Vandalism. User:Aroberts has gone too far, forcing his radical POV on Wikipedia with little or no justification. Please note that this article is not only about what we call England today. It is also about the independent England before any union! That country certainly had London as its capital. User:REX 15:01, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps, instead of constantly reverting the article, Aroberts could produce a reference which supports his case? -- User:ChrisO 17:46, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
: Indeed. It would seem only reasonable for those contending Aroberts assertions to do likewise (although in the interim clearly consensus should prevail). -- User:John Fader (User talk:John Fader | Special:Contributions/John Fader) 18:18, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
::OK. Here are some random quotes from .gov.uk sites (some from non-English parts of the UK):
::#London Welsh School offers a Welsh medium education for primary-aged children, in the heart of England's capital city.[http://www.wales.gov.uk/subiculture/content/creative/Section%202(8).pdf]
::#Your route from Westminster to the fabulous Tower Bridge on the north bank of the Thames is rich in the history of England's capital city. [http://www.nationaltrails.gov.uk/thamespathcountryside8.htm]
::#The A1, which connects the capital of England with the capital of Scotland, is one of the most dangerous and ludicrous roads in Europe.[http://download.edinburgh.gov.uk/CapitalReview/Archive/Capital_Review_Issue2.pdf]
::#London is the capital of England and of the UK.[http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/strategies/economic_development/pdf/Economic%20growth.pdf]
::#In Year 2, pupils develop their understanding of where the United Kingdom is in relation to the rest of the world. They identify London as the capital of England.[http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/reports/104/104363.pdf]
::#In the years between 1890 and 1959, Barking and Dagenham developed from a predominantly rural part of Essex into an industrial and residential suburb of England's capital city. [http://www.lbbd.gov.uk/4-libraries/publications/her-bk-on-the-move.html]
::Of course the real curiosity is that the administrative centre of England and the UK and head of state's residence is really the City of Westminster, until recently in Middlesex, rather than London. But that is similar to The Hague while Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands. --User:Audiovideo 23:14, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
* I'd like to point out that the Wikipedia article on capitals refers to cases where there are separate administrative and judicial capitals. Now, the court system of England and Wales is separate from that of Scotland - and the England and Wales court has its head at London. Also, there is de jure and de facto definitions - and London most certainly is the de fact capital of England. Finally, and most crucially, this is not an article on 21st century England, it is an article on England as a whole, and for much of that history, London was the capital. User:Average Earthman 23:33, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well there seems to be a convincing body of argument to show that London was indeed the capital of an independent England up until 1543, and that the wikipedia article should reflect this history. Now that Vamp Willow's illegal block has been revoked I shall make the appropriate edit to reflect this new consensus.
: Please don't. I think you're overstating what there is consensus for. If there is consensus, someone else will make the change you describe. Also, please sign your posts with ~~~~ , as it gets hard to track who said what. -- User:John Fader (User talk:John Fader | Special:Contributions/John Fader) 11:49, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It seems that User:Aroberts has a friend. See What is the capital of England, created by the new, and surprisingly bold and focussed user . User:Bovlb 16:21, 2005 Apr 8 (UTC)
::''Aroberts'' is damaging this article. London is the Capital of England! - I don't care what this one person says, it is the Capital of England. Why? Because EVERYONE knows it is the Capital of England. "England and Wales" isn't a country. It's just an area which English law covers within the United Kingdom. Wales is a nation - its capital is Cardiff. England is a nation - its Capital is London. There should be no debate on this. Its plain fact. FACT! I suggest that the administration of Wiki do something about this and soon. user:dpaajones
:: Cardiff is the capital of Wales because it was decided to make it so in 1955 and because it is now the location for the Wales Assembly. Since partial devolution however, no provision has yet been made at all for the nation of England, and so London remains the capital of the larger UK but England as an individual area doesn't have one. It's just one example of where the popular perception or "common knowlege" just happens to be be wrong.
:: London is de facto the capital of England. At least return London to the table on the right hand side of the page and put a note at the bottom saying "not official" or something. I just find it ridiculous that we cannot put that London is the capital of England, because it is! David.
== Page protected (and now unprotected) ==
Due to the persistent reverting/revert war taking place on this article, I have temporarily protected the article from editing. I have not chosen a particular version to protect on, and am not personally involved in any way with the dispute. I encourage the user(s) involved to sort out the issues on this talk page instead of flip-flop reverting one another. - User:Mark 15:06, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
: Mark, please remember to list protected pages on WP:PP (per Wikipedia:Protection_policy#How). That said, I think the page should be unprotected because:
:* It's not really much of an edit war (in scope and content) and if some visitor sees the "wrong" version (whichever that is) it's not the end of the world.
:* This is an important article, and it's a great shame that visitors can't edit it. Frankly I'd rather have the war continue and give over-eager combatants 3RR timeouts than deprive all of wikipedia's gazillion uninvolved editors the chance to edit it.
:* Right now, the protection is achieving nothing. As one faction appears to consist of the currently blocked Aroberts, the discussion that protection is intended to promote isn't happening. I know he'll be unblocked tomorrow, but surely the low-level magnitude of the edit war doesn't justify multi-day protection?
:-- User:John Fader (User talk:John Fader | Special:Contributions/John Fader) 18:49, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
::I agree. The page was protected before the user was blocked, but obviously it's achieving nothing now. I have unprotected the page now. - User:Mark 03:30, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
== de jure capital v. de facto capital ==
I think we can come to the compromise that de jure London is the capital of England and Wales, but de facto London is the capital of England. User:dpaajones
: I would argue that England doesn't have a de facto capital since de facto is taken to mean "in practice" and England by itself doesn't have any practice as far as things like administration and capitals are concerned, apart from the England football team perhaps, but they don't play in London either. Having said that, I can accept the compromise as offered since it adequately reflects the messiness which is the reality of the situation. --User:Aroberts 12:29, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:: Thank you. I've been asked on my discussion page how London is ''de jure'' the capital of England and Wales. My answer lies in Aroberts' argument that England and Wales is the (sort of) successor to the Kingdom of England (and its capital was London). London is ''de facto'' the capital of England because it is conventional to speak of it as such. It isn't ''de jure'' capital of England though, I now accept. David.
== Religion ==
Can any references be provided, regarding the number of adherents of each religion? I especially find the Watchtower Society figures hard to believe? User:REX 10:44, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
:I share your opinion. Probably the best is to have these figures at estimates.
User:Sarcelles 08:17, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
== Arms and Flag ==
Does anyone else not like the flag and arms on the infobox? I think that they are too small and look squashed. I especially don't like the arms, I suggest that they be replaced by [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a3/100px-Englishcoatofarms.png this] and possibly the flag by [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cb/170px-England_flag_large.png this]. Please tell me what you think. User:REX 15:30, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Proposal:
{| border=1 align=right cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=300 style="margin: 0 0 1em 1em; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; border-collapse: collapse; font-size: 95%;"
|+England
|-
| style="background:#efefef;" align="center" colspan=2 |
{| border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" style="padding-top: 0.5em;"
|-
| align="center" width="170px" |
| align="center" width="110px" |
|-
| align="center" width="170px" | (Flag of England)
| align="center" width="110px" | (Coat of arms of England)
|}
|-
| align="center" colspan=2 | ''Motto: Dieu et mon droit
(French language: "God and my right")'' |- | align=center colspan=2 style="background: #ffffff;" | |- | align=center colspan=2 style="background: #ffffff;" |
England's location within the UK |- | Official language | English language ''de facto'' |- | Capital | London ''de facto'' |- | Largest city | London |- | Area
- Total | List of United Kingdom nations by area
1 E11 m² square kilometre |- | Population
- Total (2001)
- Population density | List of United Kingdom nations by population
49,138,831
377/km² |- | Religion | Church of England
(Established Church): 31,500,000
Roman Catholic Church: 5,000,000
Islam: 1,600,000
Methodism: 1,400,000
jew: 267,000
Eastern Orthodox Church: 250,000
Sikhism: 336,000
Hinduism: 559,000
Baptists: 140,000
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: 100,000-200,000 |- | Unification | 9th century by
Egbert of Wessex |- | Currency | Pound sterling (£) (GBP) |- | Time zone | Coordinated Universal Time, Greenwich Mean Time, British Summer Time |- | National anthems | None officially; ''de facto'' (as part of the UK):
''God Save the Queen''
Unofficial:
''Rule Britannia''
''Land of Hope and Glory''
''And did those feet in ancient time'' |- | National flower | ''rose (red, white)'' |- | Patron saint | ''St. George'' |} ---- "The three lions were first definitely used by Richard I (Richard the Lionheart), on his second seal, in the late twelfth century (although it is thought that Henry I may have bestowed it on his son Henry before then)." Henry I didn't have a son named Henry, at least not a legitimate son. This may refer to Henry II and his son Henry the Young King? User:Everyking 00:33, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
'''Please note that many aspects of English life are addressed in Wikipedia by articles and categories which cover the whole of the United Kingdom. If you wish to go to the United Kingdom menu click :Category:United Kingdom. United Kingdom
Maybe a subcategory 'Castles in England' (or 'Castles of England' or 'English Castles') would be sensible, to handle the many articles about individual castles currently directly under this category? --User:David Edgar 16:05, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC) :Good idea. A sub-category for :Category:Counties of England or some such would also be good. --User:Phil Boswell | User talk:Phil Boswell 08:40, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC) --- Why is Basing included here? --- And Newgate Street, Hertfordshire?
See other meanings of words starting from letter:
Words begining with England:
England
England
England
England
England's
England's_Gate
England's_Helicon
England,_AR
England,_Arkansas
England,_Arkansas
England,_England
England,_Half-English
England,_Half-English
England,_Half_English
England,_Their_England
England-stub
England/City
England/Cornwall
England/County
England/FoodAndDrink
England/Food_and_Drink
England/Government
England/Temp
England/Temp
England:_Absolutism_and_Constitutionalism
England:_Absolutism_and_Constitutionalism
Englands_Helicon
England_&_Wales
England_(disambiguation)
England_-_FA_Cup
England_Amateur_national_football_team
England_and_Wales
England_and_Wales
England_and_Wales_Cricket_Board
England_Birmingham
England_Cambridge
England_counties
England_counties
England_Cricket
England_cricket_captains
England_cricket_team
England_Dan
England_Dunwich
England_Exeter
England_expects
England_expects_every_man_to_do_his_duty
England_expects_that_every_man_will_do_his_duty
England_expects_that_every_man_will_do_his_duty
England_expects_that_every_man_will_do_his_duty.ogg
England_First_Party
England_football_team
England_Hull
England_international
England_in_Australia_in_2002-3
England_in_Australia_in_2002-3
England_in_the_Middle_Ages
England_Lincoln
England_London
England_Manchester
England_national_amateur_football_team
England_National_Football_Team
England_national_football_team
England_national_football_team
England_national_football_team_manager
England_national_football_team_managers
England_national_football_team_records
England_national_rugby_league_team
England_national_rugby_union_team
England_Plymouth
England_Princetown
England_Rugby
England_Rural_Development_Programme
England_Salisbury
England_team
England_tests
England_to_Australia_flight
England_v._Louisiana_State_Board_of_Medical_Examiners
England_v_Hungary_(1953)
England_v_Hungary_(1953)
England_Windsor
England_women's_national_football_team
England_women's_national_football_team
England
{| border=1 align=right cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=300 style="margin: 0 0 1em 1em; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; border-collapse: collapse; font-size: 95%;" |+England |- | style="background:#efefef;" align="center" colspan=2 | {| border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" style="padding-top: 0.5em;" |- | align="center" width="170px" | | align="center" width="110px" | |- | align="center" width="170px" | (Flag of England) | align="center" width="110px" | (Coat of arms of England) |} |- | align="center" colspan=2 | ''Motto: Dieu et mon droit
(French language: "God and my right")'' |- | align=center colspan=2 style="background: #ffffff;" | |- | align=center colspan=2 style="background: #ffffff;" |
England's location within the UK |- | Official language | English language ''de facto'' |- | Capital | London ''de facto'' |- | Largest city | London |- | Area
- Total | List of United Kingdom nations by area
1 E11 m² square kilometre |- | Population
- Total (2001)
- Population density | List of United Kingdom nations by population
49,138,831
377/km² |- | Religion | Church of England
(Established Church): 31,500,000
Roman Catholic Church: 5,000,000
Islam: 1,600,000
Methodism: 1,400,000
jew: 267,000
Eastern Orthodox Church: 250,000
Sikhism: 336,000
Hinduism: 559,000
Baptists: 140,000
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: 100,000-200,000 |- | Unification | 9th century by
Egbert of Wessex |- | Currency | Pound sterling (£) (GBP) |- | Time zone | Coordinated Universal Time, Greenwich Mean Time, British Summer Time |- | National anthems | None officially; ''de facto'' (as part of the UK):
''God Save the Queen''
Unofficial:
''Rule Britannia''
''Land of Hope and Glory''
''And did those feet in ancient time'' |- | National flower | ''rose (red, white)'' |- | Patron saint | ''St. George'' |} England is one of the four constituent parts of the United Kingdom (along with Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales). England constitutes the largest, most populous, and the most densely populated country of the United Kingdom. England has land borders with Wales and Scotland, and elsewhere it is bounded by the sea. England is named after the Angles, from the German region Angeln, one of a number of Germanic tribes who settled there in the 5th century and 6th century centuries. England has not had a distinct political identity since 1707, when Great Britain was established as a unified political entity. It does, however, have a ''legal'' identity separate from those of Scotland and Northern Ireland, as part of the entity "England and Wales." England's largest city, London, is also the capital of the United Kingdom. ==Naming== The names by which most of the various languages of Europe refer to England follow two distinct patterns. Virtually every continental European tongue uses a name similar to "England": "Angleterre" (French language), "Inglaterra" (Spanish language) "Anglia" (Hungarian language), "Anglija" (Slovenian language), "Inghilterra" (Italian language), "Engleska" (Serbo-Croatian language) and so on. The Celtic languages of northwest Europe, by contrast, use quite different names, e.g. "Bro-Saoz" (Breton language), "Pow Sows" (Cornish language) and "Sasana" (Irish language). It has been suggested that these languages' alternative focus can be traced to the tribal geography of England in the Dark Ages: when the Celtic Romano-British were driven to the edges of Britain by the invading tribes, their realms abutted the Saxon lands while the other Germanic peoples were concentrated further to the east. (Although the Welsh language country name for England, "Lloegr", is linguistically unrelated to Angle and Saxon alike, the English people are indeed "Saeson" in Welsh). (See wikt:England for a list of non-English names for England.) Alternative names sometimes used for England have included the slang "Blighty", from the Hindustani language "bila yati" meaning "foreign"; and "Albion", an ancient name popularised by Pliny the Elder and Ptolemy in the 1st century, supposedly in reference to the white (Latin ''alba'') cliffs of Dover, England. (In its origins, however, the name applied to the whole island of Great Britain.) More poetically, England has been called "this sceptred isle...this other Eden" and "this Green and Pleasant Land", quotations respectively from the poetry of William Shakespeare (in ''Richard II (play)'') and William Blake (''And did those feet in ancient time''). "England" is sometimes, wrongly, used in reference to the whole United Kingdom, the entire island of Great Britain (or simply Britain), or indeed the British Isles. This usage pattern is frequently seen in documents from the United States (though the grave of Herbert Henry Asquith in Sutton Courtenay is inscribed "Prime Minister of England"). This is not only incorrect but can cause offence to people from other parts of the UK. Further, there are situations where, while the word "England" would be factually correct, United Kingdom people would typically use the less-specific "Britain" or "the UK". Sometimes (at least in Finland), people have even been confused enough to refer to the entire United Kingdom as "England" and to the individual country of England as "Britain", completely opposite of the official names. The names Scotland and Wales, however, are always used correctly and unambiguosly. The inhabitants of England are the English. The slang terms sometimes used for them include "Sassenachs" (from the Scots Gaelic), "Limeys" (in reference to the citrus fruits carried aboard English sailing vessels to prevent scurvy) and "Pom/Pommy" (used in Australian English#Vocabulary and New Zealand English), but these can cause offence to people from England. Also see alternative words for British. ==Symbols and insignia==
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,—
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,—
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.
The English are great lovers of themselves, and of everything belonging to them; they think that there are no other men than themselves, and no other world but England; and whenever they see a handsome foreigner, they say that 'he looks like an Englishman,' and that 'it is a great pity that he should not be an Englishmen.'"
Venetian ambassador to England
Early 16th century
Augusta Sneyd, Italian Relations of England (p. 20)
Early 16th century
Augusta Sneyd, Italian Relations of England (p. 20)
.jpg|thumb|175px|right|<a_href=\){kind=link}
England
Refactored. Discussions about Cornwall moved to Talk:England/Cornwall. User:Marnanel 18:02, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC) ==Flag== I removed the reference to an Act of Parliament in 1908 approving names for the Union Jack, as I don't believe there has ever been such an Act. If there was such an Act, then what was it called? --user:Zundark, 2001 Oct 17 See: http://www.flaginst.demon.co.uk/fiunionflag.htm
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb.html
:Neither of these mentions an Act of Parliament. As far as I can tell, they refer to a parliamentary answer (see under "Use and status of the flag" in the second of your links). --user:Zundark, 2001 Oct 17 ---- ---- == More flag== Can someone explain why the bit at the top about the English flag links to a page about the United Kingdom flag? Shouldn't that be a "See also" at the bottom? And the external link goes to a page which again describes the Union flag, which is confusing for a page which is supposed to be about England. Just curious... User:Cferrero 10:12 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC) ---- ==Coat-of-arms== I went to the Westminster Parliament yesterday. Among other things, I was looking for the coat-of-arms with the (Three) Lions of England. The building is replete with such, some even brilliantly coloured, but alas, the visitors were not allowed to photograph inside the building except in the St Stephen's Chapel, where I took a photograph of a plain (not coloured) English coat-of-arms -- I will upload this soon. I think Wikipedia would appreciate anyone providing a coloured example. (See ) --User:Kaihsu 10:03, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC) : As promised: --User:Kaihsu 12:53, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC) THE THREE LIONS EMBLEM IS NOT AN ENGLISH EMBLEM! [I believe the three lions emblem to be foreign not English! I believe it's Norman not English! England started way before the Normans ever existed. The Normans were not French either which seems to be a common misconception thanks to a lack of true English history IN TURN THANKS TO britain's socialist type governments.user: M. Anderson 2:02 July 26 2004] :Well, but heraldry hadn't really developed yet before the Norman conquest -- the "coats of arms" sometimes assigned to Edward the Confessor, Alfred the Great, and so forth are retrospective mediaeval inventions. The three lions passant, likewise, were developed well after the Norman conquest. So they're English enough. User:Doops 21:00, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC) ::''a lack of true English history IN TURN THANKS TO britain's socialist type governments'' Eh? If it comes to forgetting about the true English, anyone who knows the tales of Robin Hood also knows that the Tories are all Normans, so don't go blaming the socialists now... ;) -- User:Picapica 10:42, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC) Actually the three lions are english, and not norman. The coat of arms of normandy have TWO LIONS in it and thats probably why we have three. ---- ==Culture of England== Is there really no Culture of England? Surely there must an Englishman (Englishperson?) with some sense of what has been going on all these years. :) User:Fvincent 17:30, Dec 3, 2003 (UTC) :I am not English, but there appear to be a number of different cultures, all happy to ridicule the others. User:( 17:34, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC) I am English, but I don't get the question, and I am only 10 so I probably won't be able to answer it, but explain it a bit more anyway. There is a culture of England. The culture of England includes everyone from indians to Eskimos, everyone respects everyone elses culture, we all drink tea and Indians own the corner shops like Apu on the Simpsons, and i like to think that most of us are patriotic and love the Royal family. But the best way to find the culture of England is to come here and see things for yourself, you wont be disappointed.---Tony Jones---Romford---Greater London--- == Anti-English Bias Yet Again == Could anyone explain to me the purpose of placing a racist French insult so high on the England page and peppering the information which follows it with the negative anti-English and, usually incorrect, opinions of the neighbouring celtic nations? I have checked the pages for France, Ireland and Scotland and there is no abusive comment posted about those countries and the data is not composed in the same negative or critical tone. Yet again we see England being used as the world's whipping boy and it is unfair and silly. Do you want your online encyclopedia to be taken seriously? If what you're referring to is this paragraph: *The Marquis de Ximenés, an 18th century diplomat, is credited with coining the phrase ''La perfide Albion'', or "perfidious Albion", which is still heard from the French -- also an affectionate term, in its own way. It is also used by the Irish about the English but in a less affectionate manner, suggesting a degree of untrustworthiness. The Irish also refer to England as "pagan England". ["Pagan England"? I have never heard anyone Irish say this. I think this is your OWN opinion! If you want to talk about pre-christianity go ahead as the "Irish" were also pagans. Well, what are the Irish anyway come to think of it? They say they are 'celtic' but where does the name Fitzherbert come from? Who founded Dublin? Maybe you can try www.homestead.com/englishheathenism/ to] User: M. Anderson 1:38 july 26 2004 then I'd like to say I agree. This has no real place in an article on England. And I'm Irish. User:Bmills 17:22, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC) == Perfidious England == I have removed the gratuitous and racist insult because no-one has given me an explanation as to what useful purpose it served. Remarks such as that can only serve to heighten racial tension not ease it. :Well, there may be some small purpose to leaving the remarks in. I actually came upon this talk page specifically looking for the origins of the term "Perfidious Albion" which I've heard in quite a number of places. I appreciate the desire to remove hateful sentiments, but at the same time, please be wary of erasing history when doing so. I'd like to still be able to go to wikipedia and find out the background of this (in)famous phrase. If the explanation has to be couched in disclaimers, then so be it. [21:30, 20 Feb 2004] ---- ==England's legal identity== "England's formal legal identity is that of the kingdom of England and Wales." Really? There has never been a Kingdom of England and Wales, and I have never seen this term used. "England and Wales" has some reality as an administrative, legal and statistical unit of the UK, though much less than it used to now that Wales has its own legislature. But it is absurd to say that "England's formal legal identity" (assuming there is such a thing) includes Wales. Unless someone can justify this sentence it shoule be deleted. User:Adam Carr 13:52, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) : My understanding is that historically there were three kingdoms, England, Scotland and Ireland and the Principality of Wales. With the 1707 Act of Union with Scotland, the kingdom of Great Britain, incorporating Wales, began to emerge. This kingdom was a fully fledged fact by the time of the 1800 act which brought about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, more recently the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There was never an official kingdom of Wales or of England and Wales. : England, as I understand it, has only a negative official identity: the bit of Britain not covered by the regional assemblies of Scotland and Wales would just about sum it up. User:Bmills 14:10, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) :: It's straightforward enough. Wales's identity as a separate legal domain was extinguished by its annexation in the Middle Ages, leading to the creation of a single legal entity called "England and Wales" in which a set of common laws applies. Scotland and Northern Ireland are separate legal entities. You'll notice, in virtually anything to do with legal matters, that a distinction is made between "England and Wales", "Scotland" and "Northern Ireland". See the University of Leeds's summary at http://www.leeds.ac.uk/law/hamlyn/uklegsys.htm . -- User:ChrisO 14:23, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) None of that answers my point that the "Kingdom of England and Wales" never existed and certainly doesn't now, and that therefore the sentence is wrong. Now that Wales has its own legislature I'd be surprised if the expression "England and Wales" any longer has much meaning or currency. User:Adam Carr 14:29, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) :Agreed. But the article is better now without the "kingdom". Clearly the new assembly has changed the "weight" of "England and Wales". User:Bmills 14:34, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) :: Adam has a fair point regarding the misleading use of the word "kingdom" - hopefully my clarifications of the article have cleared up this point. But the expression "England and Wales" definitely does still have a lot of validity. Devolution has simply given the Welsh Assembly powers to pass secondary legislation affecting the counties of Wales. It hasn't established a separate legal domain for Wales and the two countries continue to share a single legal system governed from Westminster, which retains the exclusive right to pass primary legislation affecting Wales. See http://www.dca.gov.uk/constitution/devolution/ukdev.htm for an explanation of the devolution settlement. -- User:ChrisO 14:46, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) The Kingdom was always merely England. Wales was ignored as a separate entity. In the 1960s when the Wales and Berwick Act was repealed that references to "England" were not to be taken to include "Wales". Pre Welsh Assembly most primary & secondary legislation affected England and Wales so the term grew in use, but there was no change in the subservience of Wales to England, whether that was justified or not User:Garryq 18:38, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC) :I'm afraid it's true. Wales was legally and nominally part of England. User:Deb 18:45, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC) == Some school histories... == I'm English and certainly in England we don't start our histories at 1066 although it's the one year everyone knows in this country. I consider the statement "This may be because the English are proud of their long history of independence, and therefore like to start the clock after the last successful invasion." to be nothing more than another Mel Gibson inspired (see 'The Patriot' & 'Braveheart') dig at the English. It certainly adds absolutely nothing positive to an article about England. It may be that in other countries they start English history at 1066 but everyone in England is taught to be proud of both King Alfred (pre 1066) and the fact that William the Conqueror was the last person to successfully invade. We're certainly too proud of our long history to shorten it by 200 years! These are the reasons that I am deleting this line. I don't agree with the first line ("Some school histories of England...") either. This certainly is not true in England but I can't speak for other countries. That's why I'm not deleting that line. This is the first time I've posted anything on this excellent website so please tell me if I'm doing anything wrong. I'm eager to learn. I've read the NPOV description and I think this comes under that heading. STAN Agree with you about the line in question. There is a sense in which the statement is true, but it is not the sense in which most people would read it, which I think justifes its removal. History, technically speaking, is not "what happened" but rather "the record of what happened". The Normans were excellent documenters, and from 1066 onwards we have huge quantities of factual data about life in England upon which to base our analysis. Records of pre-conquest England, on the other hand, are extremely patchy at best. Much of what we are taught about Alfred, for example, seems to have been first documented long after his death, and very little about him can be established with certainty. Many (although not all) historians have believed that their job is to establish facts through the interpretation of historical documents, and they have no mandate to speculate about events that were not documented. Turning now to the other sense of "history", there was a time when English public (ie. posh private) schools did teach history starting with the conqueror. This was mainly because they were run by and for the aristocracy, who claimed mostly Norman descent and didn't consider what had come before their arrival to be part of their own history. But you are quite correct that it is a long time since English schoolchildren have been taught that nothing happened before 1066, and very few English people today labour under this illusion! Another reason to remove the line in question is that, despite what is still taught in English schools, the last successful invasion was not in 1066. There seems to be no doubt that William of Orange invaded 1688, but he used the old usurper's trick of pretending it had never happened and that he had acquired the throne by peaceful means..... BTW, your approach to editing (to think carefully, consider points of view, edit confidently and explain why) is impeccable, and if you carry on like this you'll be a highly valued contributor. Welcome to Wikipedia! User:Cambyses 16:06, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC) RE: William of Orange, he was invited over be the English parliament, so technically didn't invade. Also James fled wiothout a fight. User:Grunners 04:48, 17 May 2004 (UTC) Many invading forces in history have had the support of certain factions within the political system of the invaded country, but it doesn't negate the fact of the invasion. Parliament wasn't (and still isn't, for that matter) legally the sovereign body, and it had no legal authority to depose the monarch or choose a new one. The fact that James fled doesn't make it any less of an invasion, either. The Polish president fled the 1939 German invasion, but very few people deny that it was an invasion..... Best wishes, User:Cambyses 01:58, 19 May 2004 (UTC) == Independent Nation? == "It is of interest to note that England is far from being an independent nation since it has no national government, has no currency of its own, has no armed forces, etc". Surely this is a confusing sentence to include. All the things mentioned represent Great Britain and seeing as England is part of Great Britain they must represent England too. True enough they are shared with the other British nations but to say England is far from independent is misleading as it is not ruled by any other country. The thought also occurs that the sentence quoted above is equally applicable to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (except for the bit about national governments, although their power is limited) but if we were to say 'Scotland is far from being an independent nation' for the above reasons it would be deleted instantaniously and rightly so. Surely therefore it shouldn't be included on the England page? User:Pazzer 31 May 2004 Agree that deleting it is a good idea, since it confuses two distinct concepts - those of being a nation and of being independent. According to the definition in the nation article (which I think is reasonable, and which we should in any case try to be consistent with), being a nation is nothing to do with independence. Rather "a nation is a group of people sharing aspects of their language, culture and/or ethnicity". By this definition, England and Wales would seem to be nations. (Scotland and NI, for different reasons, could perhaps be described as two nations each, but that is another story!). I think it would, on the other hand, be both fair and accurate to make it clear that England is not an independent ''state'', since it is governed as part of a larger state. Best wishes, User:Cambyses 00:55, 31 May 2004 (UTC) ==Official Languages== Since there seems to be a certain amount of disagreement about 'Official Languages', it might be good to post a reference or explain why it is not 'Official Languages: English and Welsh', which is what most people would assume. At the very least, if there is some bizarre reason why there are no official languages then an entry 'de facto English and Welsh' should be added. User:DJ Clayworth 19:15, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC) :Why would anyone assume that the national languages of England are English and Welsh? As far as I know, there are no official figures on the number of Welsh speakers in England (the Welsh language question wasn't asked outside Wales), but you hardly run into Welsh speakers everywhere you go in England. :As far as I'm aware, the closest thing that comes to an establishment of Welsh as an official language is the Welsh Language Act 1993 [http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1993/Ukpga_19930038_en_1.htm]. This doesn't actually prescribe an official language; it only says that the two languages must be treated equally. Even if it did prescribe an official language, it only applies to Wales, and not England. User:Marnanel 19:42, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC) :Agree with all that Marnanel, there is little scope for disagreement and the anon adding welsh to the article is plainly wrong. As for "bizarre", it's not really not so bizarre - England is just that old. :Finally about listing "de facto" languages... rest assured that welsh would come a looong way down the list of languages spoken in England ordered by number of speakers! User:Pcb21 User_talk:Pcb21 15:37, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC) The Welsh Language Act requires public bodies to treat Welsh or English equally when providing services in Wales. Whether or not this makes any language official is irrelevant to this article. Asda and Cornwall County Council are promoting the use of Cornish but this does not make them official, even if my POV does want it to be so. No act of parliament has prescribed an offical language; but if it did it then it will need the Queen, whose title was officially proclaimed in Latin, to give her assent, which is given in Norman French. Anybody want to add these to the official language list ;) --User:Garryq 21:08, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC) User:WikiUser 19:20, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) - Re "Removed well known factual error which is also of course racist against the English." SOURCE: General knowledge of anyone born before 1960 and: www.visitbritain.com: "VisitBritain funded by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport was launched in July 1999 as a transformation of the existing English Tourist Board. VisitBritain is therefore a strategic body brokering partnerships,setting standards,developing policy, providing research and forecasts and championing issues at the highest level. VisitBritain's Press and PR department produces press releases for journalists." ADDED User:WikiUser 19:47, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) - "Languages spoken in Britain There are two official languages in Britain; English and Welsh. Although not an offical language, Scottish Gaelic is spoken in some parts of Scotland, as well as English. " http://www.visitbritain.com/facts_figures/language.htm :Okay, and what does that have to do with whether Welsh is an official language of England? User:Marnanel 19:42, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) User:WikiUser 19:47, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) - What you arguing for. I'm editing the page and tellin people why in the appropiate place like everyone else does. JUST WHAT IS IT WITH YOU PEOPLE YOU THINK I'M JEWISH OR SOMETHIN? England doesn't have a SEPARATE official language because England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all one cunry. It called The U.K. -heard of it? ::There is no national language of the UK, and no national language of England. The Welsh Language Act does give some status to Welsh (although whether it makes Welsh "official" is debatable), but that Act only applies within Wales. It has no force in England. Therefore I reverted your changes. (Incidentally, I find your comments about Judaism extremely offensive.) User:Marnanel 19:58, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) WikiUser responded to this with a further off-topic rant filled with invective and personal abuse. I reverted this to remove it from the talk page. --User:Michael Snow 20:44, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) User:WikiUser 20:12, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC) - You have no right under the wikipedia guidlelines to censor my views and prevent users discussing things here. "Only my friends can discuss the articles here" is not a part of the wikipedia guidelines. TO Marnanel: As I said before it was fascistly censored I find your antisemitic comment to me offensive and it is also illegal to post it on a UK carried web site under the Race Relations Act. :Since you deleted the suggestions that Michael and I made on your talk page, let me reproduce them here: ::Regarding your edits to Talk:England - I removed your most recent statements there, as they had little relationship to the topic of the article, and were filled with needless invective and personal abuse. Please do not post material of this type on talk pages. If you continue to do so, I will have to ask someone to block you from editing. --User:Michael Snow 20:48, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) ::For the record - so that nobody can say you weren't warned - I'd like to invite you to read Wikipedia: Wikiquette and Wikipedia:Civility. Repeated violations of these policies, especially regarding civility, are not well regarded in these parts. -- User:ChrisO 00:44, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC) :As for your complaints (Race Relations Act indeed!), you are clearly either a loon or a troll. Nobody takes you seriously, nobody is going to let you add inaccurate claims to article pages and - if you had bothered to read it, which I'm sure you hadn't - Wikipedia:Civility gave other editors the right to delete the illiterate, hate-filled, spittle-flecked rant that you posted last night. You've had your warning now so I suggest that you either grow up and start making positive contributions, or go somewhere else. -- User:ChrisO 22:27, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC) User:WikiUser 17:57, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC) - With regard to the 11 lines of garbage above from the loons and trolls and childish liars Michael Snow and ChrisO it's great as further evidence of all I've been saying about their misuse of The Wikipedia. As usual I've recorded it along with all other "histories" as a record to use against the owners of The Wikipedia. == National Anthem == I seperated "National Anthem" into de facto and unofficial because not only would God Save the Queen thought of by most people as the national anthem but is the one used whenever national anthem is specified to be played - military regulations don't refer to "God Save the Queen" or "Royal Anthem" --User:Garryq 18:22, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC) :But the military is the military of the UK; there is no English military. User:DJ Clayworth 17:52, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::My point concerned the style given to the anthem when its playing is prescribed. --User:Garryq 22:17, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC) Should not we be talking of a ''state song'' rather the a national anthem, which is an attribute of a sovereign state? --User:Garryq 22:17, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC) ==Flag== "The red cross acted as a symbol for Crusaders in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries AD and was subsequently used as a national flag until 1606 when it became a component of the Union Flag for Great Britain. At that time period, the Republic of Guinea used it also." I don't think there was a Republic of Guinea in 1606, and the modern flag of Guinea does not have any cross. Am I missing something here? User:Gzornenplatz 23:18, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC) :I cannot find a reference to Guinea at this time either, further the proclamation of 1606 onle defeined the flags to be worn by shipos at sea, --User:Garryq 15:30, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::I found it, it was the Republic of Genoa that had the same flag! User:Gzornenplatz 16:45, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC) The Republic of Georgia also use it, slightly altered withj an extra four tidgy crosses. Also how come it is St.George's cross and not some other saint?[Jimmyjimpson] ---- ==National anthem== (18th June '04) I have removed the mention of "national anthem". I have been meaning to do this since I discovered Wikipedia many months ago, so I have not edited without thought. Please note this is a factual edit. England can have no national anthem as the countries of the U.K. are not nations. The nation is the U.K. and the national anthem is "God Save The Queen". This should be put on the U.K. page only. Also there can be no such thing as a recognised (or easily agreed on un-official anthem), so if people feel there are candidates for such a thing they should try putting this in a contribution to the main text. - WikiUser. :indeed. A good reference here is the Commonwealth Games where each of the 'home countries' (who compete separately) use a different anthem and none use GStQ. Don't recall what they ''do'' use though! --User:VampWillow 20:43, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::Well, the England national football team certainly do use God Save the Queen, at least the last time I checked... User:Morwen - User_talk:Morwen 20:45, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::The Scottish certainly don't though! CHecking about the Commonwealth Games, btw, I find ''Land of Hope and Glory'' for England [http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2843-365620,00.html para 5], [http://david.national-anthems.net/eng.htm] & [http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/stories/poem_act/anthems.html], ''Flower of Scotland'' for, uh, Scotland. Wales use ''"Hen wlad fy nhadau" (Land of my Fathers)'' and Northern Ireland ''"A Londonderry Air"''. --User:VampWillow 21:08, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) I have often found it strange that when England play a football or rugby match they use the UK national anthem. No wonder people in Wales and Scotland have a problem with this. What happens when England and Wales play each other at a rugby match? - Wales sings the Welsh national anthem and England sings the British national anthem (which technically includes Wales)- what a muddle! - no wonder people in Wales see the British national anthem as an English anthem. This has nothing do with whether you believe England or Britain are countries or independent etc etc. it is just a matter of having the correct anthem which fits the country. The anthem should fit the country being represented - If you are going to have an English football team they should sing an English anthem, A British team should use a British anthem etc. ::::Replaced "Anthems" (not "National Anthems") England is not an independent state, but to claim that is not a nation is contrary to common sense. You are also denying the nationhood of the other peoples of the UK in doing this. This is very dodgy ground. By extension you are denying nationhood to Kurds, Palestinians, Tibetans (and a few years ago) to East Timorese, Latvians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians etc. A nation does not necessarily equate to a state, or vice versa. You need to understand that the UK is a mystical union: A Nation made up of Nations, and a Country made up of Countries. -- Simon Hedges User:WikiUser 20:46, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC) - You've got it completely the wrong way round. The U.K. is the real thing and the idea that England etc. are nations is the myth. But stop using the Wikipedia to call me racist. I'm not denying nationhood to anyone. If you don't like what I say get the British people and the government to change it. Some people would argue that the UK was just an economic union between Scotland and England (similar to a union such as the European Union) that helped Scotland to participate in the activities of the Empire that England had developed, and that now the empire has gone there is no longer any use for it and people are reverting back to the old nations of England and Scotland (the inclusion of Wales can't really be called a union as they didn't really have much say in the matter, although it is debatable whether Scotland was forced into the union of 1707)--User:217.43.204.34 11:11, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC) :The government seems to think that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are countries: [http://www.pmo.gov.uk/output/Page823.asp]. That page also uses the adjective "national" to describe something applying only to England, strongly implying that they think they are nations as well. So, whatever you do, don't call upon the British government to support your silly claims. User:Proteus User_talk:Proteus 21:00, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC) User:WikiUser 16:39, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC) - Hey cut the godamn abuse ok. I'm not your slave. If you can't use the Wikipedia without abusing people then don't use it. Hey! funny proteus abuses the guidelines and yet no group multi attack from ChrisO and all the other clique that own the "England" page? Curious. Had your "talk" page filled with abuse by the above WikiPedia owners yet? No! Funny!! And what makes you think that I; "called upon the British government to support my facts"? It's Simon Hedges that's wanting things changed not me. :I certainly wasn't abusive, but if that's the way you conduct discussions I wouldn't be surprised if people are rude to you. Oh, and: ''what makes you think that I; "called upon the British government to support my facts"?'' "If you don't like what I say get the British people and the government to change it." User:Proteus User_talk:Proteus 16:53, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC) ==Notice of request for arbitration against abuse by chrisO.== User:WikiUser 20:38, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC) - I want to note that chrisO keeps erasing all my hard work when I have followed all guidelines, in removing factual innacuracies and racist comments against my country. I am applying for arbitration from his abusive behaviour, breaking all Wikipedia guidelines as he is obviously just indulging in vandalism and abuse. "The best way to resolve a dispute is to avoid it in the first place. Be respectful to others and their points of view (for some guidelines, see Wikiquette). " User:WikiUser 20:50, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC) - Removed factual error by vandle chrisO. "England does not have an official anthem of its own but ''and did those feet in ancient time'' and ''Land of Hope and Glory'' are both widely regarded - unofficially - as English national hymns (although the latter more properly refers to Great Britain, not just England). " They are in fact as any schoolchild knows regarded nationally as songs asssociated with Britain and The British Empire. Years ago, during the heyday of the British Empire, the word England was often used to mean not just England, but Britain and even the British Empire. (Which came out of the perceived superiority of the English nation over the rest of the British Isles and the Empire and a strong belief in English-style of government and culture which led to English culture and values being forced onto other countries (eg. suppressing the Welsh language) in the hope of making these countries more English). The legacy of this is still with us as many people still use the words 'England', 'Britain' and 'UK' interchangeably. --User:Cap 15:08, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC) ::Eh ? The last two lines of Jerusalem are "Till we have built Jerusalem, In England's green and pleasant land." - sound's like it's about England to me. User:Mintguy User talk: Mintguy 21:20, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::and ''Land of Hope and Glory'' is used as the English anthem at the Commonwealth Games (where the four British nations compete independently). Perhaps ''any schoolchild'' is ill-informed, and not a good source for compiling encyclopedia articles. - User:MykReeve 21:24, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::::and WikiUser was evidently asleep during the England-Croatia match (and all other English football internationals), where "God Save The Queen" is played as the de facto national anthem of England. Also, why on earth is s/he objecting to the assertion that "Blighty" is a term for England? Might I suggest a look in the Oxford English Dictionary? -- User:ChrisO 21:37, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC) User:WikiUser 20:04, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC) - FULL version from my last edit note. (See England "history" page.): " Restored to more factual version before vandalism and breach of guidelines by chrisO and others, and removed some factual errors and racist comment -- Jwrosenzweig, you're cutting material that is factual and you haven't discussed it in talk. You are lying. You know full well that I HAVE discussed it on "talk" and included detailed records on each change. You are also breaking the Wikipedia guidelines by subjecting me to personal abuse: "- don't try to sneak it past by claiming Chris is a "vandle" [sic]" " I wish to inform Wikipedia users that the following people are breaking the Wikipedia guidelines; MykReeve, ChrisO and Jwrosenzweig. Also that I have applied for arbitration on the "England" page- despite the abusive message posted by ChrisO saying I was lying about that - and also users should note that sensible discussion on this page is being prevented because the above named are abusing me if I try to discuss my changes to the page. :I see no abuse, just disagreement. I think these deletions and changes are too extreme to leave in place without more discussion. This needs to be worked out here before these changes are made IMO -- User:Sannse User talk:Sannse 20:22, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC) User:WikiUser 20:38, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC) - You haven't even bothered to read this page, with the relative material even though it's only a couple of inches above your "comment". The changes are minor and involve basic facts that all English people over 12 would be expected to know. ::WikiUser, I reject the assertion that I was lying -- I don't see any discussion preceding your edits, just a note announcing them. You haven't given anything that resembles detailed evidence that I can see -- you continue to assert that "any child knows" what you are asserting, a fact in serious dispute by several editors who have marshaled some evidence in support. I am sorry you feel I personally abused you -- I had no intention of doing so. However, you referred to a good editor (ChrisO) who was and is acting in good faith as a "vandle" in an edit summary -- this remains in public display permanently, and cannot be erased. I was upset by this, and may have spoken more harshly than I should have, for which I apologize. I will, however, continue to insist that serious and solid evidence be offered here to justify the changes you are making. Appeals to common sense are not enough, particularly since others have provided evidence which contradicts your claims. I look forward to seeing your evidence, and promise to remain open-minded as to the question of whether or not you are right. I simply need to see more evidence. User:Jwrosenzweig 21:01, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC) ---- WikiUser and others: Before we start going to formal arbitration, lets see if we can sort this out by simple discussion. WikiUser, you seem to have deleted some chunks of text because you think they are wrong. Please explain what is wrong with them here. Be precise. For whoever added the text, please explain why you think it is right. Please think about the possibility that rather than just deleting text because it contains ''some'' errors, maybe it could be replaced with something slightly different. Please also come up with references to back up what you say ("It's obvious" isn't going to be helpful.) If you have examples of when these songs, or these terms, were used, say so here. User:DJ Clayworth 20:54, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC) == Royal Motto is "Dieu et mon droit", right? == User:212.251.91.238 changed the motto section from: :''Royal motto: Dieu et mon droit (God and my right)'' into :''Royal motto: Honi soit qui mal y pense (French language: Shamed be he who thinks ill of it)'' Now, as far as I can see, the latter is the motto of the Order of the Garter only, and the former is the motto of the monarch. As such, the former should be in the article, right? Am I wrong? —User:Gabbe 20:51, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC) : I think so, yes. : User:Jdforrester User_talk:Jdforrester 21:11, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC) I have a feeling that "Dieu et mon droit" is the motto of the Princes of Wales. But I'm prepared to be proved wrong! : Don't know if [http://www.britainusa.com/faq/showfaq.asp?SID=354 this] helps at all. User:Icundell 17:18, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC) :The motto of the PoW is "Ich dien" ("I serve"). -- User:ChrisO 17:27, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC) : "Ich Dien" is also found on a tuppence. I don't know why. "Dieu et mon droit" is the soverign's motto and "Honi soit qui mal y pense" (Evil to Him Who Evil Thinks)is the motto of the Order of the Garter. Why a garter? --EF ::Because the design of the 2p is the Prince of Wales' Feathers. -- User:Arwel Parry 09:21, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC) THE REASON THE ROYAL MOTTO IS "DIEU ET MON DROIT" IS BECAUSE THE FIRST MONARCH OF THE COUNTRY OF ENGLAND WAS FROM FRANCE. AND THE REAL MEANING OF "HONI SOIT QUI MAL Y PENSE" IS "SHAME ON HIM WHO THINKS EVIL OF IT". == "the City of London is small but the city of London is a city not a town" == User:Pcb21 said: the City of London is small but the city of London is a city not a town Is that true? Does London (in the sense of the place that Livingston is the mayor of) actually have city status? User:Marnanel 20:28, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::Yes. ;-) --User:VampWillow 20:36, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC) :In the sense of "a place with a Royal Charter making it a city", no, but it's certainly not a town (it contains many towns, and a couple of cities to boot). It's not a County, either (the County of London was, but that's been abolished). I'm not sure there really is a word to describe its official status. User:Proteus User_talk:Proteus 21:53, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::Its an 'administrative area'. It indeed doesn't have official city status, but that doesn't mean its not a city. However, if we were being pedantic, it doesn't have town status either, so say that is not really a city, but is just a large town, is pedantic ''and'' self-inconsistent. User:Morwen - User_talk:Morwen 11:31, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::::Of course, in terms of being 'self-inconsistent', the 'City' known worldwide as 'London' (ie.the conurbation) containing two 'Cities' ('of London' and 'of Westminster') is fully consistent with the country/nation 'United Kingdom' containing four countries/nations 'England', 'Scotland', 'Wales', (Northern) Ireland', so perfectly reasonable really for the UK! --User:VampWillow 15:15, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC) ''Does London (in the sense of the place that Livingston is the mayor of) actually have city status?'' :No. The honour of "City" belongs to the square mile. But the conurbation has been known informally as a city for decades. Parliament considered the 19th century's "Great Stink" a London problem even though they are based in Westminster, and London County was some years in the future. --User:Garryq 22:06, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::It is listed as a city on List of cities in the United Kingdom. User:Rmhermen 19:04, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC) :::That's the City of London, a small area ("the Square Mile") inside London. User:Proteus User_talk:Proteus 21:28, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::::Let's not that other city around the corner, the City of Westminster. All this is legally true, but it would be peverse to exclude greater London from a list of cities for this reason. User:Mark Richards 18:17, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC) ===London not the Capital=== Whilst London is clearly the capital of the United Kingdom, England unlike Wales and Scotland which have Cardiff and Edinburgh respectively, does doesn't have a capital of its own. So the England Page is incorrect to state that London is the capital of England, because it isn't. If it were, it would be the capital of two places at the same time, which is greedy. * This is just silly. Of course London is the capital of England. User:JeremyA 14:38, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC) England hasn't had it's own government nor administration of any sort since the act of union so it doesn't have a capital city. London is the capital of the UK, but not England. It's not silly, it's a historical and political fact. * I am English, London is my capital city! It may be possible to argue that London is not the political capital of England (a mute point as London is the place to which English people send there elected representatives) but it is definitely the historical, traditional and ceremonial capital. Just like Edinburgh and Cardiff remained the repective capitals of Scotland and Wales despite the fact that they too, until recently, were governed entirely from London. The Encyclopedia Britannica agrees with me on this point and a web search reveals that a large number of other people do too. User:JeremyA 18:02, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC) :Oh FFS ... this talk page gets more and more ridiulous sometimes! Firstly, London *is* the capital of the country of England, it is *also* the capital of the (conjoined states / country / call it what you will) of the United Kingdom &c. Whilst the Westminster Parliament is a parliament of the UK it is *also* the parliament of England (but long and involved reasons doesn't sit separately for each guise). Frankly I wish these silly arguments *were* a "mute point" but they aren't even a "moot point" worthy of all this discussion ... --User:VampWillow:User_talk:VampWillow 18:13, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC) The wikipedia definition of a capital is as follows: "In politics a capital (also called capital city or political capital — although the latter phrase has an alternative meaning based on an alternative meaning of "capital") is the principal city or town associated with its government. It is almost always the city which physically encompasses the offices and meeting places of the seat of government and fixed by law." No way does England have a government, a seat of government or any offices of government which are for England alone, only stuff for London and for the UK. English people send representatives to the UK parliament, which is in London, and also to the EU parliament but that doesn't make Strasbourg or Brussels the capital of England either. Just because it's a popular misconception that England = UK and therefore London is capital of (UK/England) doesn't make it true and I have yet to read any argument to the contrary which stands up to scrutiny. ''(above by Aroberts)''' :Om governmental terms, "England" and "UK" can be considered as overlapping/co-terminus from the England standpoint, indede the "UK" provides a 'special case' on the whole multi-nation nation state thing but I'm getting very sorely tempted to state "DFTT". --User:VampWillow:User_talk:VampWillow 19:55, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Angles / Saxons == In editing the opening paragraph on the name "England," I tried to tone down the decisive language which asserted that the divide between Celtic and mainland European languages' name for England (Saxon-origin vs. Angle-origin) derived from their different points of contact -- since the theory doesn't seem to hold water. Problems with it: 1) the Saxons weren't (as stated) the inhabitants of SE England (and hence the gateways of mainland trade routes)-- SE England included Saxons (Sussex and Essex) and Jutes (Kent). I suppose there was probably East Anglian seafaring too -- but surely not more so than from London or Dover! 2) The theory doesn't account for the BIG question -- why does English itself refer to "Angles" and not "Saxons"? Until I see evidence otherwise, it seems quite likely to me that Angleterre is derived by analogy from an already existing word "England." So, basically, if somebody has a source on this jump in; but until then, I prefer less ambitious language. User:Doops 21:20, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC) I think that the words 'Angle' and 'Saxon' are more cultural than anything - Saxons (from Jutland) and Angles (from Schleswig-Holstein) and the other ethnic groups from Europe became intermixed when they arrived in Britian and even though the different kingdoms may have considered themselves to be either Angle or Saxon the actual ethnic make-up of these groups is more complex. Also, it is often said that the Welsh/British were driven towards what became Wales and Cornwall but this is misleading. It is unlikely that there were enough Saxon/English immigrants to replace the whole Celtic population or to drive them away. What is more likely is that there were enough English immigrants for them to be ''culturally dominant'' which means that the Celtic population was in a minority, and their culture became absorbed into the dominant culture of the Saxons and people of Celtic origin gradually adopted the English language and culture.--User:Cap 11:53, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC) :I think that claim that the Celtic languages derive their names from the Saxons, and the mainlanders from the Angles is hogwash, anyway! In the case of Welsh it's totally untrue, since the Welsh name ''Lloegr'' derives from neither the Angles nor the Saxons, but is, I think, the name the country was known as before the bloody immigrants arrived :). The ''Matter of Britain'' refers to the place as Logres, too. That doesn't stop us from deriving our names for everything else English from the Saxons, of course. -- User:Arwel Parry 02:36, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC) == Country or nation? == I am keen to avoid opening a can of worms here, as I know some people get quite worked up about these things (I've just been catching up with the WikiUser saga), but which term is best? I am aware that some may feel it's important not to mislead uninformed readers into thinking England is an ''independant state'' and so would think country is best avoided. However, Scotland opens with the sentence: "Scotland, or in Gaelic, Alba, is a country (formerly an independent kingdom) of northwest Europe, occupying the northern third of the island of Great Britain." I'm quite happy to think of Scotland as a country even though I know very well it's not an independant state, but if Scotland can be accurately described as a country surely England is no different. If no one has any objections I will change nation to country in the sentence: "England is the largest, the most populous, and the most densely populated nation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, occupying the south-eastern portion of the island of Great Britain." Am I just going over old ground here, or was the phrasing arbitrarily chosen some time ago and since been assumed to be authoritative? — User:Trilobite User_talk:Trilobite 12:18, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC) You might like to have a look at 'The Isles: A History' by Norman Davies - (one of the main purposes of the book is to get away from traditional anglo-centric history which often confuses England with Britain and assumes that Scottish and Welsh history is part of English history, but at the same time ignores them except when they affect England.) He makes it clear at every stage of the book exactly which country he is talking about and his introduction is a criticism of library catalogues which say confusing things such as <
(French language: "God and my right")'' |- | align=center colspan=2 style="background: #ffffff;" | |- | align=center colspan=2 style="background: #ffffff;" |
England's location within the UK |- | Official language | English language ''de facto'' |- | Capital | London ''de facto'' |- | Largest city | London |- | Area
- Total | List of United Kingdom nations by area
1 E11 m² square kilometre |- | Population
- Total (2001)
- Population density | List of United Kingdom nations by population
49,138,831
377/km² |- | Religion | Church of England
(Established Church): 31,500,000
Roman Catholic Church: 5,000,000
Islam: 1,600,000
Methodism: 1,400,000
jew: 267,000
Eastern Orthodox Church: 250,000
Sikhism: 336,000
Hinduism: 559,000
Baptists: 140,000
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: 100,000-200,000 |- | Unification | 9th century by
Egbert of Wessex |- | Currency | Pound sterling (£) (GBP) |- | Time zone | Coordinated Universal Time, Greenwich Mean Time, British Summer Time |- | National anthems | None officially; ''de facto'' (as part of the UK):
''God Save the Queen''
Unofficial:
''Rule Britannia''
''Land of Hope and Glory''
''And did those feet in ancient time'' |- | National flower | ''rose (red, white)'' |- | Patron saint | ''St. George'' |} ---- "The three lions were first definitely used by Richard I (Richard the Lionheart), on his second seal, in the late twelfth century (although it is thought that Henry I may have bestowed it on his son Henry before then)." Henry I didn't have a son named Henry, at least not a legitimate son. This may refer to Henry II and his son Henry the Young King? User:Everyking 00:33, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
England
'''Please note that many aspects of English life are addressed in Wikipedia by articles and categories which cover the whole of the United Kingdom. If you wish to go to the United Kingdom menu click :Category:United Kingdom. United Kingdom
England
Maybe a subcategory 'Castles in England' (or 'Castles of England' or 'English Castles') would be sensible, to handle the many articles about individual castles currently directly under this category? --User:David Edgar 16:05, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC) :Good idea. A sub-category for :Category:Counties of England or some such would also be good. --User:Phil Boswell | User talk:Phil Boswell 08:40, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC) --- Why is Basing included here? --- And Newgate Street, Hertfordshire?
See other meanings of words starting from letter:
E
EA | EB | EC | ED | EF | EG | EH | EI | EJ | EK | EL | EM | EN | EO | EP | ER | ES | ET | EU | EW | EX | EY | EZ |Words begining with England:
England
England
England
England
England's
England's_Gate
England's_Helicon
England,_AR
England,_Arkansas
England,_Arkansas
England,_England
England,_Half-English
England,_Half-English
England,_Half_English
England,_Their_England
England-stub
England/City
England/Cornwall
England/County
England/FoodAndDrink
England/Food_and_Drink
England/Government
England/Temp
England/Temp
England:_Absolutism_and_Constitutionalism
England:_Absolutism_and_Constitutionalism
Englands_Helicon
England_&_Wales
England_(disambiguation)
England_-_FA_Cup
England_Amateur_national_football_team
England_and_Wales
England_and_Wales
England_and_Wales_Cricket_Board
England_Birmingham
England_Cambridge
England_counties
England_counties
England_Cricket
England_cricket_captains
England_cricket_team
England_Dan
England_Dunwich
England_Exeter
England_expects
England_expects_every_man_to_do_his_duty
England_expects_that_every_man_will_do_his_duty
England_expects_that_every_man_will_do_his_duty
England_expects_that_every_man_will_do_his_duty.ogg
England_First_Party
England_football_team
England_Hull
England_international
England_in_Australia_in_2002-3
England_in_Australia_in_2002-3
England_in_the_Middle_Ages
England_Lincoln
England_London
England_Manchester
England_national_amateur_football_team
England_National_Football_Team
England_national_football_team
England_national_football_team
England_national_football_team_manager
England_national_football_team_managers
England_national_football_team_records
England_national_rugby_league_team
England_national_rugby_union_team
England_Plymouth
England_Princetown
England_Rugby
England_Rural_Development_Programme
England_Salisbury
England_team
England_tests
England_to_Australia_flight
England_v._Louisiana_State_Board_of_Medical_Examiners
England_v_Hungary_(1953)
England_v_Hungary_(1953)
England_Windsor
England_women's_national_football_team
England_women's_national_football_team
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