Decius

Gaius Messius Quintus Trajanus Decius (201-251), Roman Emperors (249 - 251) was born at Budalia near Sirmium in lower Pannonia. He was the first among a long succession of distinguished men to come from the Illyrian provinces. In around 245, the emperor Philip the Arabian entrusted him with an important command on the Danube. By 249 (or the end of 248), he was sent to quell a revolt of troops in Moesia and Pannonia and forced to assume the imperial dignity. He still protested his loyalty to Philip, but the latter advanced against him and was slain near Verona, Italy. During his brief reign, Decius engaged in important operations against the Goths, who crossed the Danube to raid districts of Moesia and Thrace. (This is the first considerable occasion the Goths appear in the historical record, who would later come to play such an important role.) The Goths under Cniva (king of the Goths) were surprised by the emperor while besieging Nicopolis on the Danube; the Goths fled through the difficult terrain of the Balkans, but then doubled back and surprised the Romans near Bero�, sacking their camp and disbursing the troops. It was the first time a Roman emperor fled in the face of Barbarians. The Goths then moved to attack Philippopolis which fell into their hands and who treated the conquered with frightful cruelty. Its commander, Priscus, declared himself emperor under Gothic protection. The siege of Philippopolis had so exhausted the numbers and resources of the Goths, that they offered to surrender their booty and prisoners, on condition of being allowed to retire unmolested. But Decius, who had succeeded in surrounding them and hoped to cut off their retreat, refused to entertain their proposals. The final engagement, in which the Goths fought with the courage of despair, under the command of Cniva, took place on swampy ground in the Dobrudja near Abritum (Battle of Abrittus) or Forum Trebonii. Jordanes records that Decius' son Herennius Etruscus was killed by an arrow early in the battle, and to cheer his men exclaimed, "Let no one mourn; the death of one soldier is not a great loss to the republic." However, his army was annihilated in this battle, and Decius slain. He became the first Roman emperor killed in a battle with barbarians. Decius was an excellent soldier, a man of amiable disposition, and a capable administrator, worthy of being classed with the best Romans of the ancient type. The chief blot on his reign was the systematic and authorized persecution of the Christianity, which had for its object the restoration of the religion and institutions of ancient Rome. Either as a concession to the senate, or perhaps with the idea of improving public morality, Decius endeavoured to revive the separate office and authority of the censor. The choice was left to the senate, who unanimously selected Emperor Valerian I (afterwards emperor). But Valerian, well aware of the dangers and difficulties attaching to the office at such a time, declined the responsibility. The invasion of the Goths and the death of Decius put an end to the abortive attempt. ==The "Decian persecutions" of Christians== The persecutions of Decius figure large in the history of the Roman Catholic Church but are not otherwise officially mentioned. Early in 250 Decius issued the edict for the suppression of Christianity, and the "Decian persecution" famous to Christians began. Measures were first taken demanding that the bishops and officers of the church sacrifice to the Emperor, a matter of an oath of allegiance that was taken by Christians as profoundly offensive. Just at this time there was a second outbreak of the Antonine Plague, which at its height in 251 to 266 was taking the lives of 5,000 a day in Rome. This outbreak is referred to as the "Plague of Cyprian" the bishop of Carthage, where both the plague and the persecution of Christians were especially severe. Cyprian's biographer gave a vivid picture of the demoralizing effects of the plague [http://www.users.drew.edu/ddoughty/Christianorigins/persecutions/cyprian.html] and Cyprian moralized the event in his essay ''De mortalitate''. The human reaction to overwhelming devastations is universally twofold: to moralize them, and to lay the blame on a nearby minority and wreak vengeance. As Jews paid with their lives during the 14th century's Black Death, so in Carthage the "Decian persecution" unleashed at the onset of the plague sought out Christian scapegoats. The career of Cyprian, bishop of Carthage, who survived the episode, only to be martyred later, offers a picture of the disorders and divisions in the doubly traumatized Christian communities, when it was a question whether or how to receive back those who had weakened, paid civic homage to Decius and were inscribed in the ''libelli'' as having performed their civic obligation. The persecution of Decius, in which Pope Fabian is said to have been martyred, also provide the context for the seven "apostles to Gaul" of Christian history and legend. In its classic form their story is a brief mention in Gregory of Tours "History of the Franks" (written in the decade before 594) quoting a lost ''vita'' of Saturnin of Toulouse. These seven bishops sent out to re-Christianize Gaul are individually discussed at their own entries: Gatianus of Tours to Tours, Trophimus of Arles to Arles, Paul of Narbonne to Narbonne, Saturnin to Toulouse, Denis to Paris, Austromoine to Clermont, and Saint Martial to Limoges. ---- 201 births 251 deaths Roman emperors Roman emperors killed in battle Crisis of the Third Century

Decius

==The "Decian persecution"== The "Decian persecution" mentioned by so many Christian writers (and no official source) is not yet mentioned. It will have to form a sub-section. *[http://www.logosjournal.net/papers/burns_2002.html Joshua Burns, "Perception and persecution in the Roman Empire: The Edict of Decius"] is a modern historian's assessment. The "seven apostles to Gaul" went out after this persecution. Any other thoughts to add before we start assembling this section? User:Wetman 05:53, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC) == 1911 historiography == I've remove some EB1911 historiographical commentary about disputes on sources, as Im sure its been resolved and/or needs a modern update, in any case the facts of the article are so basic its probably not relevant here, EB1911 is notorious for playing up drama for the humours of the victorian reader. User:Stbalbach 21:52, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Decius

This is the Decius Talk page. My real name is Alexandru Florin Gheorghiu. My pseudonym is, as you can see, Decius. When I'm having an especially good day, consider me Decius Maximus. ---- When you're logged in all you have to do is type ~~~ or ~~~~ to sign, and don't worry about the vandalism thing. User:Dori | User talk:Dori 03:49, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC) Thanks Dori. I need to learn more about how Wikipedia works. ==Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers to the Wikipedia== Here are some useful links: *Wikipedia:Tutorial *Wikipedia:Help desk *M:Foundation issues *Wikipedia:Wikiquette *Wikipedia:Civility *Wikipedia:Conflict resolution *Wikipedia:Brilliant prose *Wikipedia:Neutral point of view *Wikipedia:Department of Fun for a bit of light relief *Wikipedia:Village pump for general chat about Wikipedia *Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress if you feel like helping out, but don't have anything specific to contribute to an article *Be Bold! User:PhilHibbs 13:21, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC) p.s. Why not put your name in the Wikipedia:New user log? Also, most of the first part of this page should be on your User:Decius, rather than here on your talk page. User:PhilHibbs Okay, I may transfer the information soon to another page. Thanks for the Welcome, thanks for the links. User:Decius ==Copyrights== Everything you contribute to Wikipedia is copyrighted (including what you put on talk pages). It's just that you also agree to license it under the GFDL. User:Dori | User talk:Dori 13:26, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC) Alright, thanks. User:Decius == Question == Just to make sure, you're not the same person as :de:User:Decius and :sq:User:Decius right? What does the word decius mean? User:Dori | User talk:Dori 04:29, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC) No, that's another person. Decius is an old Roman family name. I connect the name to the Latin word 'Decens', which meant 'proper', 'fit', 'right', and to the Latin word 'Decus': it has an appropriate meaning. Many Romanian names are Roman names that have dropped the last 'S': Livius>Liviu, Ovidius>Ovidiu. There is no 'Deciu' from Decius, and that wouldn't sound right: it would have to retain the 's' to sound right. Romanian names that have retained the 's' (Marius, etc.) wouldn't sound right without the 's': that's why there is no 'mariu'. On the other hand, retaining the 's' in such a name as Liviu (Livius) would be dragging things out unnecessarily. :hey, as crazy it may seem... being szekler names, i think Dej, Doja have something to do with Decius :) User:Criztu I pronounce Decius like this: Dech-e-us, so that it is three syllables, like Max-Im-us. I don't strech out the 'e' sound in 'Decius' too much, only as much as in the word Har-mon-e-us, pronounced normally, though some contract harmonious to three syllables. Some pronounce Decius with two syllables ('deshus'), but with Three syllables it is more elegant and more proper (three being a revered number among the ancient Romans). == Re: Vandalism == I'm sorry, but I don't recall ever accusing you of anything. Care to supply a link? If it was a message on an IP talk page, surely you realise it likely was not meant for you? (Read the italic text at the very bottom of the IP talk page.) -- User:Hadal 05:36, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC) :Decius, Hadal is one of our main reverters of vandalism, and a very good one as a rule. At worst, you've been accidentally caught in some crossfire here. When you say you are blocked from editing List of Dacian words, what exactly is going on, maybe I can help sort it out. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 07:14, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC) ::Okay, I get it now. Decius must be an AOL user, because the only IP I blocked today was 64.12.116.65 (Special:Contributions/64.12.116.65), which is an AOL cache proxy (AOL users are fed different pages from different proxies, which explains why he could edit other pages but not the Dacian word list). I actually meant the block to expire an hour or so ago (blocked at 4:05; I usually block AOL IPs for no longer than two hours), but I must've forgotten to change the expiry time. The IP is now unblocked, and Decius should have no further problems. I hereby apologise for the inconvenience, but in the same vein, Decius should know that I meant no harm to him and that as an AOL user, such friendly fire incidents are something he should expect to recur. Again, my sincere apologies. -- User:Hadal 07:55, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC) Just to let people know: I don't use "AOL" (though free-trials are hard to resist) anymore, and I don't recommend it. Dial-up in general I don't recommend, as it is slow and you often get signed off. A problem I don't have anymore. User:Decius == Original Research == All you submit on Wikipedia is copyrighted and credited to you, however, you can't have an article on Wikipedia which contains original research by you. If you want, you could publish an original paper on Wikisource, or a book on Wikibooks. User:Dori | User talk:Dori 01:53, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC) Wikisoure, from what I've seen, is a database that is for transcribing works that already exist, not original material. Wikibooks is a project concerned with writing textbooks for the classroom. Neither of those two are appropriate. Is there another one. ==Question II== Yes User:Dori | User talk:Dori 04:48, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC) Re: kidh, not that I know of User:Dori | User talk:Dori 04:51, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC) Thanks. == Today == Today, consider me Decius Maximus. == Page viewing (& other things) == As far as I know, Wikipedia specifically does ''not'' monitor how many people passively look at a page. 2 unrelated things, while I've got you: (1) It would sure be appreciated if you would turn your wiki signature into a link like pretty much everyone else's: it makes it much easier for people to navigate to your page either to reply to something or your to get a sense of who you might be. (2) You mention that your mother's maiden name is Craciun. Any relation to the dancer Cristian Craciun? -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 19:27, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC) There are statistics available for Wikipedia as a whole. Click on the thing on the main page that says how many articles we have in English, and it will bring you into a maze of pages about statistics. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 20:20, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC) You should be able to sign & date your remarks with ~~~~. Is this not working for you or haven't you tried it. (Şi am inţeles vorba ''Craciun'': eu pot sa citesc romaneste, dar nu cum limba engleza sau spaniola. Am fost şase luni la Bucureşti pentru o slujbă, şi am �nvăţat "bun rom�neste pentru străin".)--User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 07:26, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC) Yes, I'm the one stray American here who has a chance to be a non-partisan observer of whether sources cited in Romanian mean what the people who cite them say they do. That sig thing is ~~~~, not ````. Typically, it is the key at the upper left of the keyboard, upshifted. I don't have any great connections to linguists in Romania, and most of the academics I know there are in computer science. One of those, though, is also (among other things) a theater critic for ''Dilema'' and seems to know half the intellectuals in Bucharest, so you might try him: drop my name (Joe Mabel), and ask if he knows someone you might contact. His name is Adrian Mihalache; I don't feel it is appropriate to put his email address here, but you can find it at [http://www.socio.demon.co.uk/magazine/5/5adrian.html]. Failing that, I could try to network deeper, but first let me know how that goes. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 18:32, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC) == Dacia Felix == Good tidings, in the name of Dacia. Yours truly: Decius Maximus. == what does Dacia mean ? == hi there Decius, do you have any info on what could have Dacus and Dacia possibly mean ? any IE root for these words, any related meaning in Latin, any clue or hint ? User:Criztu 00:51, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC) I have some ideas I'm working with concerning that, and if it's a good case, you'll hear about it. :) In the meantime, ''La Mulţi ani'' to you and everybody else. ==Accusation== Glad to help, but why do you feel Bogdan was holding ''you'' responsible for this paragraph? He never used your name in his comment. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 06:17, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC) As for accessing history: at the top of the history pages (but for some reason not at the bottom) there are links to see more history. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 07:18, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC) Everything's alright. Yet a message to other people in the future: don't presume to know me, my methods, or my motives: if my User Name is not behind a contribution, then don't assume that it is the real Decius Maximus. Especially as time goes on and people read my style, expect to see imitators using my style. == slight translation help needed == I'm reading a text in Romanian that I'm finding occasionally difficult. I just hit a word I don't know at all, and can't find in a dictionary, that seems crucial to a passage I'm trying to understand. What is ''reavoitoare'', as in ''cu tendinţă reavoitoare''? -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 07:00, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC) :Reavoitoare is from Rau-Voitor. Rau-Voitor is masculine and means "someone who wishes ill" or "is full of ill-will". 'Rau' as you know means 'bad' and 'voitor' is from 'voie', 'will'. That phrase means basically "with tendency towards ill-will". 'Reavoitoare' is feminine. Rau, masculine > Rea, feminine. Voitor, masculine, > feminine. :I should've wrote this on your page. I'll go to your page for a minute. Mulţumesc bine. Foarte �ntuneric. Acum am �nţeles. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 07:58, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC) You're welcome. I enjoyed helping out. :) Another toughie (from my point of view): What is "''lăcaş''" in ''"�n acel moment, �nfiinţarea teatrului Baraşeum depăşea semnificaţia inaugurării unui lăcaş de cultură..."'' ("At that moment the Baraşeum theater began to overstep its initial significance as a ''lăcaş'' of culture...") -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 19:44, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC) : lăcaş generally means ''house'' or ''building''. I am not sure there is an English expression that means "house of culture". User:Bogdangiusca | User talk:Bogdangiusca 20:22, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC) Lacas can also mean 'a meeting place' in an outdoor area. & another: ''zeilor'' as in ''cultul zeilor şi demonilor''? It's in a Jewish context, if that helps any. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 20:08, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC) : "cult of the gods and demons". ==Etimologia cuvintelor tracice== Cred că te-ar interesa [http://homepage.mac.com/sorin_paliga/FileSharing2.html lexiconul ăsta] (fişierul \ebooks\lexica\LexEtym_RO.zip) -- e scris de [http://www.unibuc.ro/ro/cd_sorpaliga_ro Sorin Paliga], de la Universitatea din Bucureşti. User:Bogdangiusca | User talk:Bogdangiusca 13:33, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC) Mulţumesc. User:Decius == Today Also== Today also, you can consider me Decius Maximus. == romanian "mos" - confer albanian "moshe" == Hi there Decius, I was thinking, have you contemplated on the etymology of the romanian word "mos" (elder) by any chance ? I'm very curios about this word, you noted my "belief" regarding this word ... well.. is there any chance to trace the origin of this "mos" word other then "cf.albanian 'moshe'" ? hint me on this, when you'll have time and space :) User:Criztu 09:14, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC) == more language/cultural help sought: == At [http://www.evenimentul.ro/local/print/18444,32,baseArticle.html]: would "Regimentul 1 Geniu Bucuresti" be a ''military'' regiment, a ''militia'' regiment, or something else? Also, same source "Sa aiba piine pina si ciinii", presumably "Să aiba p�ine p�na şi c�inii": Is this "Even the dogs eat bread"? Thanks again for your frequent help. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 02:25, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC) The Regiment mentioned is a Military regiment. Yes, you are right about your translation of that line of verse: In this country, country of bread, even the dogs should have bread (to eat). == Branca == Further info for those who are curious: the mustard plant (genus ''Brassica''), the cabbage (''Brassica oleracea''), and the horseradish (''Armoracia rusticana'' or ''Armoracia lapathifolia''; other scientific names occuring) are also from the family ''Cruciferae'' (also referred to as the ''Brassicaceae'' family). The plant variously referred to in Romanian as 'branca', 'crucea-pamantului', or 'branca-ursului' (bear's paw; it's often hard to tell whether the reference is to the cross-shape or paw-shape; I need better pictures of their leaves) is the ''Heracleum sphondylium'' (family ''Umbelliferae''; known in English as cow parsnip, ertrot, hogweed), whose flowers look similar to the Cruciferae, but which usually look to have five-petals, not four, though they still look like crosses, if you can call something with five parts a cross: look at the second photo on this site, and see how similar the flowers of the ''Sphondylium'' look to the ''Cruciferae'' flowers: [http://www.plant-identification.co.uk/skye/umbelliferae/heracleum-sphondylium.htm]. The ''Hepatica transilvanica'' (family ''Ranunculaceae'') is called in Romanian 'crucea-voinicului' (cross-of-the-strongman, or cross-of-the-mightyman). The flowers of this plant are similar to the ''Sphondylium'' and the ''Cruciferae'':[http://2bnthewild.com/plants/H97.htm]. There are other plants referred to as 'branca', including the ''Scrophularia scopoli'' (branca-porcului, meaning 'pig's foot'; 'scrofa' means 'sow' in Latin, from which comes Romanian 'scroafa' same meaning) and the ''Salicornia herbacea''. The ''Scrophularia'' doesn't fit the cross-shape, and the reference here is to the shape of the leaves, not flowers [http://erick.dronnet.free.fr/belles_fleurs_de_france/scrophularia_scopolii.htm]: the shape of the leaves reminded people of a pig's foot (branca=paw, hand, foot). The ''Salicornia ''fits the pattern as well: [http://www.alpenblumen.com/systematik/7_bilder/che-sp-1.jpg]; as you can see, the ''Salicornia's'' flowers are rather cruciform (the ''Salicornia'' has no leaves). So all of the plants and fungi fit the idea that 'branca' and 'brancuţa' referred to the cross-shape, the hoof-shape or the paw-shape (in the case of ''Heracleum'', perhaps both paw- and cross- shapes, hence its variant names), so these plant names cannot be seperated from the Romanian word 'Branca' (paw, hand, *foot), which was found in Latin as 'Branca' (paw, hand, foot). This means either that Dacians also had the word 'branca', or that these plant names are not Dacian. User:Decius The origin of the Latin word is unknown, and whatever the "references" have to say about it is unproven. 'Branca' looks to me to have been a word that was also native to Dacians & Thracians. The Lithuanian word for 'hand' is 'Ranka'. User:Decius == Wikisource and Wikibooks == I am not involved with either of these projects, so I am not 100% sure, but I think you would be OK at either project. To be sure, you would be better off asking directly at Wikisource:Wikisource:Scriptorium and b:Wikibooks:Staff lounge. User:Dori | User talk:Dori 02:55, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC) == User page == No limit on the size of user page, but also no specific limit on creating subpages of your user page: and then presumably linking them from your user page. This is a bit of a "soft" area. I have (very occasionally) seen voting for deletion of such subpages, mainly to stop people from hosting their own little encyclopedia of material that was already deleted from the main encyclopedia. However, I'd be very surprised if you had an issue here. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 17:29, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC) == Latin-Baltic cognates == I'm going to use a section of this Talk Page to compile a very brief list of Latin-Baltic (Lithuanian) cognates (from the same root and have similar meaning) and equivalents (from different roots, but have equivalent meaning). User:Decius *Lat. Vir (man), Lith. Vyras (man)= PIE *wiros, 'man' *Lat. Senis (old), Lith. Senas (old)= PIE *sen, 'old' *Lat. Primus (first), Lith. Pirmas (first)= PIE *per, 'first' *Lat. Homo (human being, man), Lith. Zmogus (human being, man)=PIE *(dh)ghom 'earth' (>'earth-man') *Lat. Humus (earth), Lith. Zeme (earth), PIE *dhghem, 'earth' *Lat. Ignis (fire), Lith. Ugnis (fire), PIE *egnis, 'fire' *Lat. Dentis (tooth), Lith. Dantis (tooth), PIE *dent, 'tooth' *Lat. Nasus (nose), Lith. Nosis (nose), PIE *nas, 'nose' *Lat. Oculus (eye), Lith. Akis (eye), PIE *okw, 'to see; eye' *Lat. Caput (head), Lith. Galva (head; cf. Slavic 'glava'='head'); not cognate: two different PIE roots *Lat. Per (through), Lith. Per (through), PIE *per, 'through' *Lat. Hiems (winter), Lith. Ziema (winter), PIE *ghei(m), 'winter' *Lat. Dies (day), Lith. Diena (day), PIE *deiw, 'to shine' *Lat. Os (mouth), Lith. Burna (mouth), not cognate *Lat. Juventas (young), Lith. Jauna (young), PIE *yeu, 'young' *Lat. Noctis (night), Lith. Naktis (night), PIE *nekwt, 'night' *Lat. Septimus (seventh), Lith. Septintas (seventh), PIE *septm, 'seven' *Lat. Galbinus (yellow, greenish-yellow), Gilvus (pale yellow), Lith. Geltonas (yellow), PIE *ghel (bright, yellow, golden) *Lat. Vertex (summit, top), Lith. Virsus (top), PIE *wer, 'to incline' *Lat. Augeo, Auctum (to grow, to enlarge), Lith. Augo, Agti (to grow), PIE *aug, 'to increase' *Lat. Serum (whey), Lith. Suris (cheese), PIE *ser, 'to flow' *Lat. Rutilus (red), Lith. Raudonas (red), PIE *reudh, 'red' *Lat. Hortus (garden, enclosure), Lith. Gardas (enclosure), PIE *gher, 'to enclose, surround' *Lat. Sol (sun), Lith. S�ule (sun), PIE *sawel, 'sun' (cf. Thracian ''Salumbria'', ''Selumbria'', and recall that Thracian has been linked to Baltic) *Lat. Volo (will), Lith. Valia (will), PIE *wel, 'the will' *Lat. Futurus (to be), Lith. Buti (to be), PIE *bheu, 'to be' (PIE 'bh' turns into 'f' or 'b' in Latin) *Lat. Mens (mind, thoughts), Lith. Mane (to think), PIE *men, 'to think' *Lat. Deus (deity), Lith. Dievas (deity), PIE *deiw, 'to shine' *Lat. Ros (dew), Lith. Rasa (dew) *Lat. Gnarus (knowing), Lith. Zinoti (know), PIE *gno, 'to know' (here Lithuanian is much closer to Slavic *zna than Latin *gna) *Lat. Vivax (lively), Lith. G�vas (alive), PIE *gwei, 'to live' *Lat. Nives (snow), Lith. Sneigas (snow), PIE *sneigh, 'snow' ("cognate" yes, but observe that Thracian 'niva' (snow) goes with Latin, not Baltic) More later. As you can see, the Baltic word-stock is much closer to Latin than Slavic is to Latin (there are many Latin-Baltic cognates, less Latin-Slavic cognates). And I expect that Dacian was much closer to Latin than Baltic is to Latin. Examples: Dacian 'dies' (day), Latin 'dies' (day); Dacian 'zer' or 'ser' (whey), Latin 'serum' (whey); Daco-Thracian 'apa' (water), Latin 'aqua' (water), yet on the other hand Lithuanian 'vanduo' (water) and Slavic 'voda' (water); Thracian 'niva' (snow), Latin 'nives' (snow), yet on the other hand Lithuanian 'sneigas' (snow). It is certain that Dacian was not on the Slavic branch, and was not especially close to the Slavic branch at all. Few linguists in fact legislate for a "Dacian-Slavic" grouping, if any. One thing to make note of is that PIE 'gh' usually becomes 'h' in Latin (*ghom-on>humus) and 'z' in Lithuanian (*ghem>zeme), because Lithuanian is Satem. Thracian fluctuated (dialectical variants?) between 'g,h,z' for PIE 'gh', and Dacian may also have varied here (dialects?), though there is no definite evidence that 'gh' ever became 'z' in Dacian. Such centum-satem fluctuations are observed, so there is no law being broken. There are some old, enigmatic Romanian words that suggest Dacian may have also sometimes changed PIE 'gh' into 'z': the word 'zmeu' (plural 'zmei':legendary dragon-men who were said to live undergound or underneath lakes) and the word 'zmeura' (raspberry). These two words are probably Daco-Thraco-Phrygian words from PIE *dhghom, 'earth, earth-creature, underworld-creature, low-growing plant'. No big deal, because the fluctuation is part of my theory: specifically, the fluctuation of 'gh' is what I expect. 'Humi' in Latin and 'Chamai' in ancient Greek meant 'on the earth, on the ground'. Cf. the anc. Greek words 'Chamai-genes' (earth-born), 'Chamai-zelos' (low-growing, seeking the ground), and 'Chamai-leion' (earth-lion, from which comes the name of the Chameleon lizard). There is enough evidence to show that 'gh' more often became 'g/gh' in Dacian (gheara, gard, groapa, grapa, and more, all from 'gh' roots). The fluctuation in the case of *dhghom may have been caused by the initial 'dh' sound that affected the sound-development. Some features that I observe in common between Daco-Thracian, Baltic, yet also Latin: '-as' suffix (Thr. Buzas, Lat. Maecenas, Lith. Vyras); '-is' suffix (Dac. Zalmoxis, Lat. Ossis, Lith. Nosis). Of course, these features are also found in Greek (Megas, Oikesis), and other languages. Would it terribly bother me if Dacian was closer to Baltic than to Latin? Not quite. Yet I don't see any overwhelming indications that Dacian was very close to Baltic. And I'm sure that Dacian and Thracian did not have 'sn' from PIE, but 'n', as in Latin, a fact which in itself calls for Dacian and Thracian to be placed at least on their own branch---and that is how they are placed, except for a few unscrupulous fantasistes who try to sneak them into Baltic, or Balto-Slavic. If I added Slavic to the list (and I might), you will see that Slavic diverges much further way from Latin. Of course, Baltic is much closer to Slavic and Germanic than to Latin, yet many basic words are cognate. User:Decius Among the Latin correspondances that Slavic lost (but Baltic kept): PIE *wiros, 'man', did not survive in Slavic; and PIE *dent was replaced by derivatives from PIE *gembh/gombh (e.g., Slavic ''zob'', 'tooth' as opposed to Lithuanian ''dantis'' and Latin ''dentis''). User:Decius 11:37, 21 May 2005 (UTC) ==Stan Lee== My father, who was a publisher, actually slightly knew Stan Lee, although I don't think there was any connection beyond casual acquaintance. I know he considered him the biggest talent at Marvel. American Jews, like nearly all Americans, are often "multiply hyphenated", but usually once in the U.S., we tend to just consider ourselves "American Jews" or "Jewish Americans" unless we maintain strong cultural or other ties to the old country (usually a matter of families having been very assimilated in the old country). In my case, most of my ancestors apparently came from Lithuania, with a few possibly from Russia, but as far as I know, all but one set of Russian-speaking great-grandparents had Yiddish as their primary language. Unsurprisingly, the Russian-speakers emphatically considered themselves "Russian Jews", but the rest promptly adopted the identity of "American Jews". When writing about most Americans, I wouldn't venture more than, possibly, a phrase about ancestry in an article, unless that ancestry has an obvious bearing on the person's life. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 18:44, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC) From what I've observed about Stan Lee (co-creator of Spider-Man), he almost never refers to the fact that his parents were Romanian Jewish immigrants, and Stan doesn't seem to be interested in those issues. He's doing his own thing. User:Decius ==Watch pages with "watch" and "my watchlist" buttons== there's the "watch" button, so every page you contribute to, it automatically lists in your "my watchlist" any consequent changes that other contribs make -- User:Criztu 09:31, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) Thanks. User:Decius ==yahoo list, on PIE== are you visiting cybalist, at yahoo groups, on PIE ? [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/ 1] , i like to observe the discussions focusing on romanian "matters" -- User:Criztu 03:13, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC) I visited that site a few times back in November or December, but I haven't since. I will visit it again occasionally, because it does have some interesting discussions. Thanks. User:Decius == Rosetti's Istoria Limbii Rom�ne on common Albanian/Romanian words == I thought you might be interested, so I uploaded a scanned copy of this chapter at [http://bogdan.dapyx-soft.com/ILR.zip] (3 MB). User:Bogdangiusca | User talk:Bogdangiusca 11:40, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC) Thanks. User:Decius == Adding Messages == Anybody who erases a previous message by adding his/her new message will have his/her new message erased, no exceptions. Use the [+] button. And if you're a kook or a crank, don't bother. User:Decius == Translation help, again == There are a few untranslated phrases in the last few paragraphs of Cimislia that I don't understand. I know it's not particularly an area of interest for you, but I'm guessing you can knock this off in about 3 minutes. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 07:54, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC) The final untranslated part refers to a species of extinct archaic horses, found in the hills (>Ripa, plural Ripe; Ripele= the hills; from Latin 'ripa', 'bank', 'hill') near the city. : "R�pa" is a very steep bank. That's why I used bluff = "A steep headland, promontory, riverbank, or cliff." User:Bogdangiusca | User talk:Bogdangiusca 10:28, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC) Yup. As long as we're discussing 'ripa' I might as well mention (because I like tracing words to roots) that Latin 'ripa' is from PIE *rei 'to tear, cut, scratch' and the root meaning would have been 'a bank of land that has been cut, shaped by the force of water or wind'. I'm not sure exactly what genus of extinct ancestral horses is referred to, though I am interested in paleontology. == Please keep the names of the scholars and sources == Buna, Decius. One of Wikipedia's main rules is to mention names of scholars, authors and sources when representing certain hypotheses. In the Thracian language you removed the names of a number of authors, leaving behind empty phrases like ''This had led a linguist to'' and ''a Romanian linguist and thracologist, has proposed''. That might be taken by some as an effort to vandalize the text. Please, restore the names and don't do it any more. Mulţumire. - User:Ogneslav 16:47, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC) I had explained why I removed the names: Talk:Thracian language (though since the names have returned I removed the explanation). You can put every single name back if you think it matters. The main reason I removed names is because somebody (who is either a fan of Mario Alinei or Mario Alinei himself) kept mentioning the name of 'Mario Alinei' and how 'renowned' he is. I don't really give a ****. The article is not a place to promote Mario Alinei, or any other linguist. They should be mentioned only in passing, without laudatory adjectives describing them, and without focusing too much on them. User:Decius : Yeah, I certainly agree on that, but it's good to have the names mentioned in the article for two reasons: 1. it gives more neutrality; 2. it gives the possibility that readers can search for other works of those authors and get more familiar to their hypotheses. - User:Ogneslav 17:04, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC) Yes, you're right. The names that I removed have been restored, except for one (see article ). I do want people to learn more about their ideas. I was neutral, because I also erased the name of the Romanian Thracologist and linguist. The only linguists whose names I didn't erase were the two Bulgarian Thracologists. Mario Alinei is not a Thracologist, and he is stepping out of his field. User:Decius == ancient "turkish" word, "balkan" == sal Decius, would you like to confirm/infirm the existence of an alleged "ancient turkish word" ''balkan'' meaning "thick forrested mountaineous terrain" ? the discussion page is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Balkans > 13th paragraph - origin of name \"Balkan\"... all i could find was "bolge" meaning 'territory' -- User:Criztu 23:41, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC) Salut. 'Balkan' is probably an Indo-European word, from PIE *bhelg: go to www.etymonline.com, look under letter B (not the first page). As you can see, it would be too unlikely of a coincidence for Balkan to be native to "turkish", because 'balc' meaning 'high ridge' is found in Germanic (the Germanic word is from PIE *bhelg). The Turkish etymology that was mentioned in the Balkans article needs to have a scholarly reference to back it up. I'm sure that there is such a scholarly reference (though I haven't seen it yet), but that doesn't mean the hypothesis is correct, just that it is the accepted hypothesis (in which case, it will be the etymology mentioned in the article, because original research can't be used, even if correct). User:Decius 01:29, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC) If this is just a coincidence between a Turkic word and an Indo-European word, it must be proven (or reasonably demonstrated) that this is just a coincidence. At the least, this shows yet again that there are unexplained correspondances between Indo-European and Turkic.User:Decius 05:40, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC) The Latin word 'fulcire' (to prop up, support; remember that mountains were figuratively or literally beleived to uphold the heavens) is also from *Bhelg (in Latin, bh>f; g>c: bhelg-felc-fulc). Might be a connection somehow to 'Vulcanus', which is of unknown etymology (though perhaps connected to a Hittite word 'valhannases' also of unknown etymology): might is the word to underline. User:Decius 01:56, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC) == Treaba, Trebui == These words are considered to be from Slavic (and they have pan-Slavic cognates, if that means anything, and there are examples from Old Church Slavonic, if that means anything), but the extremely close similarity between Romanian 'treaba' (work) and Spanish 'trabajo' (work), suggests a possible Latin origin of 'treaba'. Spanish 'trabajo' is from Latin 'tripaliare', which is from Latin 'tripaliarum', which was an instrument of torture, the idea from 'tripaliare' to 'trabajo' being "torturous work". If 'tripalus'>'treaba' violates Romanian sound-changes, there may be an unknown factor in the equation, so it might still be from Latin. User:Decius 06:48, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC) It would be interesting to know what is the etymology of the "Old Church Slavonic" word in question---if there ''is'' an etymology (remember the case of ''targ'', where no Slavic etymology existed for the word). User:Decius 06:56, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC) The Latin word 'tripaliarum' was a three-forked instrument, and the word is formed from tri (three)+ palus (stakes): tripalus, terpalus, tripaliarum, et cetera. A movement strictly from 'tripaliare' to 'treaba' is not the only option, but a variant form may be the source. There was a Thracian tribe (a very independant tribe) named the ''Triballi'', and perhaps that may be a clue. The Ribogor�an (intermediary between Aragonese and Catalan) word for 'work' is 'treballa' (>tripaliare). Cut off the '-lla' and you have 'treba', 'treaba', the Romanian word for 'work'. User:Decius 07:17, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC) == Ancient linguistic interactions between Indo-Europeans and Turkic groups == Intriguing. Read this file by a researcher from Ukraine, Valentyn Stetsyuk (no credentials given). He has assembled an interesting list of cognates and possible cognates between Albanian and a Finno-Ugric language, Mordvian (or 'Mordvin', 'Mordavian'; they don't have a Wikipedia article yet, that's how obscure they are). He also has assembled an intriguing list of possible cognates between certain Turkic languages, and Old Latin, and his idea is that there was actual ancient contact. Expect the unexpected. Remember that there is a vast amount of Latin words of unknown etymology,and they are not all explained by the Etruscan clich�. The cognates between Albanian and Mordvin, if true, are suggestive: perhaps this indicates that Albanians are indeed from north of the Danube (and are not Illyrians or even Paeonians, who both lived south). Stetsyuk suggests that the proto-Albanian formed in Ukraine/Russia near the Desna, Seim, and Oka rivers, where the Mordvins once lived also. Here is the link:[http://www.geocities.com/valentyn_ua/AO22b.doc]. The most interesting three-way cognate for me is Albanian 'bretkos�' (frog), Mordvin 'vatraksh' (frog), and ancient Greek 'batrachos' (frog). The ancient Greek word is of unknown origin. User:Decius Stetsyuk states something very relevant for the Dacian-Latin theory:" ''Probably proto-Bulgars crossed the river Dnieper and stayed in the steppes of the right bank of Ukraine----that can be proved by their language contacts with Old Italics.''" Now, though I think it is quite unlikely that early Turkic groups encountered in ancient Ukraine (and Moldova) the Italic tribes that we know of, they may have encountered early Italic speakers of a different sort: Dacians, who, as is known from archaeology, once lived in Ukraine as well as Dacia. User:Decius 05:21, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC) From his list, I noticed one major mistake: he lists 'abbas' as a Latin word, when in fact 'abbas' is a Late Latin word that entered from Greek, and the Greek word is from Aramaic: so it cannot be used as a cognate showing ancient Latin-Turkic contact, so Stetsyuk has some eggs missing in his basket there. User:Decius 21:38, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC) (Are you sure that old Bulgars didn't have contacts with Semitic peoples? I give only lexical coincidances but not ethymology - VALENTYN STETSYUK). Maybe they did. But 'abbas'<>'apas' can't be used as a cognate showing contact between Old Latins and Turkics, because Old Latins didn't have the word 'abbas'. That is what I was pointing out. User:Decius (Or not found? Had Old Latins the word "vulgar"? I didn't found it in a dictionary but it is sure that this word was in Old Latins and I compare it with the word "Bulgar". I have many other arguments for contacts between Old Bulgars and Old Italics. One have to read the whole my work to understand that this is true. - V.S.) Old Latins didn't have the Semitic word 'abbas'. The word entered Latin in the Christian era, and was used in Late Latin and Ecclesiastical Latin. Technically speaking, it is considered that Old Latins did not have the word 'vulgar' (which is the Anglicized/French form basically). Attested in Latin are the same word but with the forms 'vulgaris', 'volgaris', 'vulgus', 'volgos', 'vulgatus', 'vulgare', 'vulgi', 'volgo', et cetera, and that's good enough. These Latin words have not been traced to a root, though they are surely related to a Sanskrit word 'varga' (a group). This Sanskrit connection has already been proposed, though the ultimate source is still a mystery. User:Decius 01:42, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC) I'm not objecting to the basic idea that Old Bulgars may have encountered Old Italics: I'm pointing out that the "cognate" abbas<>apas can't be used for that purpose. It's possible that you are on the trail of something important, and maybe there was contact between Turkics (Old Bulgars) and Old Italics. Yet to make sure that the cognates actually have relevance, the etymologies must be checked, to avoid listing mere coincidences. User:Decius 21:38, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC) I saw the question in your file about the source of English 'use': the English word entered from French 'user', and the French word is from Latin (>usus, uti, utor). User:Decius 09:38, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) Note also that the Albanian word 'kofsh�' (thigh, hip) is from early Romanian 'coapsa' (in turn from Latin 'coxa'). The Albanian word cannot be from Mordvin, though the Mordvin word may be from Indo-European *koksa (the source of Latin 'coxa'). The proto-Albanians (who you are saying encountered Mordvins) presumably would not have had the word 'kofsh�' because they hadn't borrowed it yet from Latin. User:Decius 05:35, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC) One might say that the similar words between Mordvin and Albanian happened not by proto-Mordvins encountering Albanians, but from proto-Mordvins encountering Dacians who spoke "a language similar to Albanian". Not in my opinion, because Dacian toponyms and names show no indication that Dacians spoke a language similar to Albanian, so that idea is out the window. User:Decius 06:07, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC) :what fascinates me about Mordovia is this traditional "forward peaked cap" that they wear :o| http://www.hunmagyar.org/mordvin/mordvin.html -- User:Criztu 08:05, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) Cognates between Indo-European and Turkic keep popping up, so I wouldn't bet my chips that early Turkic groups didn't encounter early Indo-European groups long ago. For example, consider this, that I observed: Latin ''quercus'' (oak tree) is from the Indo-European root *perkwu, defined as 'oak tree'. A common ''mediterranean'' species of oak tree is ''Quercus suber'', also known as the Cork oak tree, because it is a prime source of cork. In fact, the meaning of 'cork' is inherent in the word ''quercus'' and in the root *perkwu itself, not just the meaning 'oak tree'. And there is a Turkic cognate: ''qarc'' is the Turkish word for 'mushroom, fungus' (I haven't seen a reference say this Turkish word is from Arabic, so it's a Turkic word, and my Persian dictionary says it is a Turkish word). Cork (material) is made from the porous, puffy outer bark of the ''Quercus suber'' ; a mushroom is a porous, puffy fungus. So here is another apparent link (coincidence?) between Indo-European and Turkic. There was or is also an Arabic (Semitic) word 'al-qurq', but current references state that this Arabic word is from Latin ''quercus''. User:Decius 05:43, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC) A very interesting thing I noticed is the resonance between Salmoxis ("the Thunderer", as I've translated it) and the Turkic 'Silkmek' ("to shake"): Salmoxis>Silkmek, 'm' and 'k' being switched. You can say good-bye to 'Zamolxis'.User:Decius 08:33, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC) == utopia == I always thought that utopia was sort of a shortening of eu + topos, meaning good place? User:Lethe :''Edit: according to dictionary.com, you are right and I am wrong.'' User:Lethe | User talk:Lethe 08:52, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC) Yup. User:Decius 06:59, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC) ''Apion'' and ''apios'' are reminiscent of Romanian ''apos'' (watery). User:Decius 02:38, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Quick Points == In his essay [http://www.continuitas.com/interdisciplinary.pdf], Mario Alinei suggests that the Slavs never migrated into the Balkans, etc., that they are autochthonic, etc., and that the Thracians were in fact Slavs who spoke a South Slavic language, etc. . That idea is a crackpot idea, and no historian will touch that idea, for good reasons, because it contradicts reason and contradicts the evidence. Yet in section 7.5.5., he describes his allegation and offers what he apparently thought was "evidence for" the allegation, and I paraphrase: * "Thracian is generally considered to be a Satem language, as are Baltic and Slavic."---1)Yes, generally considered, but not universally considered; see the theory advanced by Sorin Olteanu, an actual Thracologist and linguist. Olteanu proposes that Thracian and Dacian were at first Centum languages. 2) Baltic and Slavic are not the only Satem languages. Other Satem languages include Indic, Iranian, Armenian, Albanian, and Phrygian. Even if Thracian was Satem, it was probably on its own language branch. * "A number of Thracian toponyms, hydronyms, etc. have been linked to Baltic." 1) Yes, a number have been linked to Baltic, not Slavic. 2) Also, a number of those Thracian-Baltic linkages are erroneous (cf. the erroneous linkage of Lithuanian 'kupseliai' to Thracian 'kypsele', which is in fact related to Greek 'kypsele'), and they are not in fact linked to Baltic or Slavic. * "Yet, in some cases, the toponyms, hydronyms, etc. are closer to Slavic." 1) Not quite a true statement, and I don't know of any such case. The two examples that he gives don't make the cut: Thracian ''diza'' is known to have its closest cognate in Iranian ''deiza'' (>wall) and ancient Greek 'teichos' (wall), not in Slavic 'zidi' or in Baltic 'zidit'. The other example, the Thracian hydronym ''strymon'', is from a common PIE root *sreu, 'to flow' and has close cognates in Baltic 'straume', Old Slavonic 'struja' (the Polish word he cites is considered to be from Baltic), and Germanic *straumaz, meaning 'stream', from which comes English 'stream' and Dutch 'stroom' (>stream). Thracian ''strymon'' is thus also very close to Germanic *straumaz. Those two examples he gives are worthless, and if there was a better one he would have or should have mentioned it. And that's all the "evidence" he gives for an "idea" that contradicts all historical documents, and contradicts the opinions of the vast majority of historians, linguists, and scientists. The Thracian language was not a "a type of south Slavic language", and there is no solid evidence that it was even very close to the Slavic branch. User:Decius 06:22, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC) == Daco-Thracian == There are so many uncertainties in this field that people should take more time to consider all the evidence (instead of just one or two toponyms) before trying to slap tags on the Dacian and Thracian languages and stamp them as "Baltic", "Albanian", or "Slavic" languages, or whatever. There were many Indo-European branches that have vanished over time. A trend in modern linguistics is not to further lump languages into unmanageable and unsupported groups ("Balto-Slavic" is one example), but to instead recognize fundamental differences and seperate them, and some even say Lithuanian and Latvian should be seperated, and that the Baltic branch never existed; in which case, if you connect Daco-Thracian to the Baltic branch, you are connecting Daco-Thracian to a branch that doesn't even exist. And again, observe the comedy: if linguists are uncertain whether or not Lithuanian and Latvian (two well-documented spoken languages) are on the same branch or not, how can some overanxious linguists say that Thracian or Dacian (two very unknown and unspoken languages) were on the same branch as Baltic, if that branch even exists? Not many try to place Daco-Thracian on the Baltic branch, but a few try, like "Harvey Mayer", whose ideas concerning the Slavs and Albanians sounds like Nazi propaganda to me (which ideas you'll find if you search the net; he basically says that Slavs were enslaved by the Baltic peoples, and thus Slavic became similar to Baltic because of this long enslavement). The vast majority of scholarly works correctly view Daco-Thracian as a distinct language group. User:Decius 01:49, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC) ==Trojans== hi Decius -- I think you have exaggerated slightly with the "Trojans" category. Anatolia and the Dardanelles are certainly no Trojans, I suggest a more proper approach would be that Trojans is a subcategory of Anatolia. Note that "Trojans" are the inhabitants of legendary/homeric Troy, not of historical Wilusa, and we should be careful not to lump the two together. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 10:04, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC) Trojans occupied a portion of Anatolia, so I included a link to Anatolia under the Trojans category. I think Trojans should have their own category. I didn't mention Wilusa specifically yet in any Trojan article, so I haven't done any lumping, and you're right that the lumping should be avoided. The Dardanelles were named after Dardania/the Dardans, who were kin to the Trojans, so I linked Dardanelles. User:Decius 06:13, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC) Though I should state that in my opinion the Trojans and Dardans were actual peoples, and I lean towards linking the Trojans and Dardans with archaeological finds in Troas, so I gave a brief mention of archaeological findings in connection with Dardans and Trojans. I'll do more clarification soon. User:Decius 06:23, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Possibly Dacian Inscriptions == Decius, You might be aware of these, but apparently a large collection of old inscriptions has been found. These were originally written on gold tablets, in a variant of the Greek alphabet and, as yet, only one of these inscriptions has been (questionably) deciphered. Have a look at this page: http://www.dacia.org/html/placute-plumb.html for more details and actual images of the inscriptions. I have taken the time to transliterate some of these into a Latin alphabet. There are no spaces, which makes it a pain to decipher anything meaningful. However, I have managed to create a small lexicon and I've managed to decipher an additional tablet. Here's what is known so far: IMG #0011 zamolxs uo deso lu skadun o kature acezato a moasa a cetora skuto dabiu suosa genioklo kopo bisika dio juos TRANSLATION (DONE BY 'EXPERTS', NOT BY ME): Zamolxis a zis-o lu' Scaciun o padure asezata la moasa la Cetora, Schitu' Dabiu, zisa 'genunchiu', capu' biserica de jos. : Who are these 'experts', and why does their translation make no sense, if they are experts. User:Decius 09:12, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) :: Heh. You should see the translation of Rohonczi Codex, made by Viorica Enăchiuc. It has gems such as: "Loveşte furia unitar! Dacă ne unim ai r�de!". User:Bogdangiusca | User talk:Bogdangiusca 17:33, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) And here's the one I was able to decipher myself: IMG #0161 dacebalo on ancea du armosa dako ceo a deso sonta do mulio ila du morire so sarmighetausa acino ila du puseri stopeste armosa rumunos TRANSLATION: Decebal inaintea armatei dace cica a spus, "Sunt multi cei ce vor muri pentru ca (acolo) la sarmisegetusa sa poata opri armata romanilor." I was also able to find the names of other Dacian kings in other inscriptions, like Lisimah, Oroles, and Burebista. The tablets could be relating a chronicle of Dacian history. I'm still uncertain of the authenticity of the tablets. They could very well be fakes. But it's still worth a look. I'm really interested as to what your opinion is on this. My opinion: the tablets are worthless fakes, no question. User:Decius 04:46, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) I see many anachronisms: ''stopeste'' is too close to Romanian ''stop'', which is a modern borrowing from French and English 'stop'. User:Decius 04:49, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) Also ''bisika'' in #001 should not mean 'biserica', if authentic; it should mean something else. Romanian 'biserica' is from an earlier 'basilica', in turn from 'basilike stoa' (royal court), from 'basileus', meaning 'king' in ancient Greek. So pre-Roman Dacian (if it is pre-Roman Dacian) would not have the word in that form, 'bisika'. The translation of #001 is nonsensical and completely wrong---though since the inscription itself is probably fake and has no real meaning, any translation of it would not be wrong or right---it would be irrelevant. User:Decius 05:20, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) Another thing that is wrong with #001: 'suosa' cannot have meant 'zisa', though 'deso' (earlier in the sentence) might have. It must be consistent: D in both cases, not D in one and S in the other. User:Decius 05:49, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) I'm going to rearrange some letters from the first tablet on the site, just to experiment: *samolxsuo de solus ka dono katurea cezatoa moasa cetora skuto dabiusu osa genioklo kopobi sika diojuos. It doesn't make sense any which way, except for 'samolx', and the hoaxer just threw that in (and also threw In 'Decebal', 'Lisimach', etc.) to make it look authentic. But it's fake. It doesn't look like Dacian at all, it looks more like Basque or Sumerian or something---in other words, it looks like nonsense. User:Decius 07:48, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) Some other considerations: the Dacians were Sun-worshippers, so I would expect them to write on Gold and Silver plaques, not lead---lead was a dark, worthless metal that was reserved for writing curses, black magic---lead is associated with the underworld and the dead (though that might explain why Zamolx is mentioned). Though all these considerations are pointless because the tablets are hoaxes. User:Decius 07:58, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) Before spending time trying to decipher anything, I'd rather check the background on the discovery of all of these tablets. User:Decius 08:40, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) One scenario to consider: 1) the tablets are fake, and no further comment is needed. User:Decius 10:37, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) == On "Russia is in Asia" == Yes, no one is arguing that 50% of Russia's territory is east of the Urals. But to most people, and certainly to most Russians, that's not the deciding factor. The vast majority of the population lives west of Urals (and certainly the vast majority of the 1M Romanian [aka Moldovan] speakers as well). The vast majority of the economic activity, development, politics, history, is all centered west of the Urals. To make an admittedly-rough analogy: In the 19th century, Belgium controlled Belgian Congo, which was many times greater in territory than Belgium proper. Suppose that relationship continued to the latter being a fully-incorporated territory of Belgium, but with the population never exploding as it did in DRC in the past century, so the bulk of Belgian subjects would still be in Belgium proper. Would you then be by default saying that Belgium is in Africa? Given that people reading Romanian language are most likely not there to learn about the particulars of land area distribution in Russia, and that most people, if forced to assign such a label, consider Russia a part of Europe, I think my change was entirely reasonable. User:Zyqqh 09:40, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) You have a point, but so much of Russia is in Asia that it doesn't feel right putting all of Russia under the Europe section. But it's no big deal to me. User:Decius 10:00, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Ancestral forms == If 'experts' are concocting such translations, it shows that they don't have a sense of ancestral forms. 'Suosa' is an abomination, and there was no such Dacian word. Romanian ''zis'',''zice'' has a form with 'dice' at its origin, the form being Latin ''dico'',''dicere'', ''dixi'', ''dictum'', et cetera, from PIE *deik, 'to pronounce'. There is no way that Dacian would have transformed the D in *deik into 's', and most likely the change to 'z' hadn't happened yet. The Dacian-Latin form (assuming the Dacian-Latin theory) would have been 'dic-', though possibly 'zic-'. 'Suosa' is impossible. The inscriptions on the tablets are nonsense. User:Decius 23:32, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Redirects == You created a couple of redirects with incorrect syntax recently. It is supposed to be #REDIRECT article name. You were using # REDIRECT, which the software doesn't recognize as a redirect. While it's a minor thing, it's a minor thing that actually makes something not work like it's supposed to. -- User:Cyrius|User talk:Cyrius 09:09, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) Thanks, I'm still learning how to use all that stuff. No space inbetween "#" & "REDIRECT", just "#REDIRECT"---Ok, the correct syntax has been noted. User:Decius 09:10, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Why the tablets are made of Lead == Because at the time the tablets were made (20th century) there was no scientific method of determining the age of lead artifacts [http://www.upi.com//view.cfm?StoryID=20030415-120247-7512r]. I am 100 % certain that the tablets are modern fakes, and the reason why lead was used is because it was impossible to date (and relatively inexpensive), and even this just discovered method (described in the link) is not very good. Not one minute more should be wasted in trying to "decipher" them. User:Decius 02:35, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC) ==Qafa== Yes, qaf� قفا is Arabic for "nape of the neck"; it also means "rear side". The verb qaf� means "to follow".[http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=قَفَا] I'm not certain whether the verb derives from the noun or (as I would guess) vice versa. As for its Semitic etymology, I'm not certain; the Hebrew qaph�' "congeal, curdle, dark, settle" doesn't seem obviously cognate. However, if there are Aramaic or Hebrew cognates at least, User:Garzo and User:Gilgamesh would be good people to ask. A quick Alwaraq search suggests that the word is attested at least from 750 AD, at any rate. - User:Mustafaa 20:08, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC) (copied from User talk:Mustafaa) Thanks Mustafaa, it is important for me to know the etymology, but it is hard to find information. I'm going to pursue this some more. User:Decius 23:08, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Merging == The simplest way to tag articles that need to be merged is with : other article You can always Wikipedia:be bold and perform the merge yourself, too. The | character on a normal US keyboard should be located in the upper right over the \ character. If you're using a Romanian layout, I have no idea where it would be. -- User:Cyrius|User talk:Cyrius 02:57, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC) Okay, I see it now: |. :). Thanks Cyrius. User:Decius 02:59, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Vienna Dioscurides == I'm not sure what's going on with the History, it looked to me like you did major surgery on the article removing several sections including the illustration, which is why I reverted. I see from your contribution list that you have made several good edits to the Dioscurides article(s), so I'm assuming that there was a technical glitch of some sort. Thank you, by the way for catching my spelling error. User:Dsmdgold 04:02, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC) Thanks Dmsdgold. I don't know what's up with the history of that article, but it poses a threat to all Wikipedia contributors (who wants to be falsely credited in that manner?). User:Decius 04:04, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC) Don't get too worked up over weird stuff, it happens occasionally. -- User:Cyrius|User talk:Cyrius 04:24, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC) == massagetae vs getae == you might be interested in reading this link: ''It is most questionable whether any connection between the Dahae and the Thracian Daci can be traced (comp. Strab. vii. p. 304); but Ritter (Erdkunde, vol. vii. pp. 668, foll.) has noticed the curious coincidence of the successive arrival of Daci, Getae, and Scythian tribes to the W. of the Caspian, upon the banks of the Ister; while in a previous age the Jaxartes and Oxus were occupied by Dahae, Yueti (Getae), and Massagetae to the E. of the Caspian'' http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0064%3Aid%3Ddahae -- User:Criztu 11:42, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC) It's interesting...who knows for sure. But I'm pretty sure the Daci and Getae were Thracians, so I don't think that idea of coming later from the east can be true. User:Decius 01:01, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) I was never and still am not at all convinced that Getae and Massagetae had anything to do with each other, and I don't know of any traditional scholars who see any connection. Example: ''Massagetae'' might just be a Hellenization of some Iranic name "massaget" or something, "-et" being a suffix to "massag-", which would be etymologically unconnected to Getae, and only coincidentally sounding like Getae. User:Decius 01:05, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) The idea that the Daco-Getae were Iranic is not supported by evidence (or by classical references, which affirm that they were Thracian), nor is it helpful to the case that our substratum words are Daco-Getic (because our substratum words, except for one or two, are not Iranic; and one or two is not enough to show that Dacian was Iranic)---but if you want to support the Iranian idea, that's your choice. User:Decius 02:58, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) ''Massagetae'' may also be divided like this: ''Mass''-''agetae''. Whatever the case, I'll bet a large sum of money that there is no relation to ''Getae''---though before I place that bet, I'm going to do a bit more research just to make sure. User:Decius 23:27, 6 May 2005 (UTC) == Your user page == You seem to be using your user page to develop an article on the Dacian language. There is nothing wrong with this, but you might find it more convenient to use a Wikipedia:Subpages like User:Decius/Dacian language. -- User:Cyrius|User talk:Cyrius 15:47, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC) Thanks Cyrius, but my comment to this is: it's too late, and I should've done that from the beginning. User:Decius 01:06, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) There's always the future. -- User:Cyrius|User talk:Cyrius 03:18, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Venetic language == About what is going on here: Talk: Venetic language. This is an exquisite example of something that I cannot stand, when a Slavic (in this case Slovenian) semi-scholar (in this case Matej Bor) leaps like a vulture on an ancient mediterranean language (in other cases, a Balkan language, etc.) and attempts to squeeze some sort of "similarity to Slavic" out of the ancient language: it is not seriously disputed that Venetic was very close to Italic, but this doesn't stop a Slovenian nationalist from making the deranged nationalist claim that he sees a language "close to Slavic"---a claim that was made decades ago and ignored by the scholarly community, and don't wonder why. Recently, a "Macedonian" Slav nationalist has went "on the scent" (as he says) for Slavic autochthony in the Balkans. I don't know what he's been sniffing, but nobody (including him) has come up with anything scientific yet---because science cannot support such fiction (yet see: Science fiction). User:Decius 03:43, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) Note that User:Boraczek probably does not in anyway support the ideas of Matej Bor concerning the Venetic language. User:Decius 09:35, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) == The Republic of Moldova's borders == what *is* up with that crazy bottom border cutting moldova off from the black sea? --User:Chaizzilla 07:01, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) It's Politics. Specifically, Russian politics. They are worried about Romanian (Moldovan) "expansionism". Any good strip of coast (especially Black sea coast) = power, money, and a valuable resource, and the "landlocking" of Moldova is just another cowardly attempt to take away its resources. User:Decius 07:05, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) ==Testttttttttttt== What were you doing in this article? User:RickKUser talk:RickK 08:58, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC) Wrong person: User:Albanau created that blank page, then redirected Origin of Albanians there to delete it. See User talk: RedWolf. User:Decius 09:00, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) Always check a User's History of Contributions, which reveal who created what and when---and sometimes ''why''. User:Decius 09:06, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) Yeah, sorry about that. It looked like the article had been there for quite a while, and I hadn't remembered ever seeing an article with that name. I've reported Albanau to WP:AN/I. User:RickKUser talk:RickK 09:09, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC) Thanks Rick, no problem. User:Decius 09:10, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) Sorry I wasn't any help, you caught me while I was asleep. -- User:Cyrius|User talk:Cyrius 17:41, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) Sleep happens sometimes. User:Decius 17:43, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Wikipedia has some problems == User:Dori brought up a point about Wikipedia that I rather agree with: since there is no stable edition, it takes constant and wearisome reverts and edits to undo the work of vandals and bad editors. User:Decius 05:15, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) Yet, examples such as this make Wikipedia worthwhile: Talk:Ancient Macedonian language. Pistol-grip pump. User:Decius 21:05, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) ==Balto-Slavic languages== hi Decius -- I don't think I can stomach another User:Antifinnugor just now, but maybe you can be bothered? [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Balto-Slavic_languages&diff=11723149&oldid=11721489] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABalto-Slavic_languages&diff=11723162&oldid=11721939] cheers, User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 14:17, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) ==Arbitration== hi Decius, The Antifinnugor case was a long and painful process, we went all the way through RfC and arbcom, and I had to take a lot of abuse from him. I am glad we did that, especially since Afu was also active on :hu:, where the much smaller community does not have the 'constitutional' means to defend themselves. Anyway, I sort of took the main burden to see it through there, but I wouldn't have, if I hadn't been strongly supported by Bishonen, Mark D, and others. So the point is, there is no easy way to do this, and somebody has to take the brunt. The most important thing is that your own behaviour is impeccable, i.e. polite in the face of abuse, always ready to compromise etc. You should not go to arbcom directly, they will just turn you down and point you to WP:M and WP:RfC, where the behaviour of both parties will be scrutinized by outsiders. Now, Albanau's behaviour is not quite as outrageous as Antifinnugor's (who was really grotesque in his accusations and conspiracy claims ("pervert hatemongers", "KGB spies" and what not)). But he ''is'' required to respect consensus, and to cite his sources. If his sources are outlandish, he can still demand some special section where his views are presented, but if he tries to misrepresent academic opinion, we have every right to revert him. So the next step will be WP:RfC. I will support you, since I know you are a competent editor, and I also know the nationalist editors can be really damaging to the project. It is not an enjoyable untertaking, and it requires some faith in the project. I will also put the Origin of Albanians on my watchlist and try to help, but I have to get a feel of the topic before I can make informed judgements. regards User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 07:21, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) Thanks Dab, I appreciate it. My "behavior" within the article was always honest; the only thing that can be said against me is that I occasionally verbally abused User:Albanau after being provoked by his imbecilic attitude. Usually I'm a nice guy, and in any case I am always reasonable, and will recognize when I'm wrong. Though I'm usually right.User:Decius 07:26, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Re: Macedon == Yes, there are countless Greek/Macedonian disputes on that and related pages. I'm watching many of those pages, and occasionally rolling back the crap. It's a tiring job that simply needs to be done, otherwise we might as well just protect it all and go home... --User:Joy 11:59, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) of course (the nationalist positions should only get marginal representation, excepting in articles on nationalism). And you're doing a good job. I was just trying to tell you, take it easy :o) User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 17:00, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Particular Page Ban== I can't unilaterally ban Albanau, and it's impossible to keep a User from editing a particular page. You should start the process of getting the arbitration committee to deal with him by filing an RfC on him. Or you can ask him to go to mediation. User:RickKUser talk:RickK 19:44, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC) == :ro: == * Salutari Alexandru de la Wikipedea �n limba rom�nă. Poate ai din c�nd �n c�nd timp să treci pe acolo. User:Gangleri | [ Th] | :Gangleri 09:00, 2005 Apr 4 (UTC) Salut Gangleri, Mulţumesc for the invitation. Some times I go there and do some edits (anonymous edits). I plan on soon creating an account there, and linking that User Page to my english one. I also want to see the Ro-Wikipedia expand and expand some more. In the meanwhile, Thank You for inviting me. User:Decius 11:35, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) * Thanks Alexandru! Please see also Talk:Geography of Romania. Best regards User:Gangleri | [ Th] | :Gangleri 19:47, 2005 Apr 4 (UTC) == barbat vs.ferfi == sal Decius. i came upon this hungarian word : f�rfi meaning "man" , or in romanian barbat. i think ferfi is related to latin varvatus/barbatus ... i lack the means of tracking its origin, i hope you might find it interesting enough to trade me a hint to where should i go to finding more on hungarian words origin :) -- User:Criztu 12:41, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) Salut Criztu. That might be possible. Barbatus is from PIE *bhardha, and 'bh' can turn into 'f' and 'dh' can also turn into 'f' (=farf). PIE *bhardha means 'beard', and is probably from PIE *bhar, 'projection, bristle'. I don't have a Hungarian etymological dictionary, which would help to avoid errors when dealing with Hungarian words. I'm going to look for Finno-Ugric roots on the net (I already found a site with Semitic roots, which is helpful in other cases). This kind of stuff is tricky, and there is always the possibility that 'ferfi' might be from a root that has nothing to do with 'bhardha'---or maybe there is no etymology for the word, in which case a connection can be made. User:Decius 13:13, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==sicily== aha, the triskelion connection... the Britannica says celtic warbands wandered as far as Sicily after the sack of Rome (390 BC), so that's probably what's at the bottom of this. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 14:27, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) :the preview button is your friend, Decius - I'm getting like ten new messages from you :oP User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 14:45, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) Yeah, I never use that feature, really. Guess I should. User:Decius 14:50, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Georgiev== ''ancient Macedonian is closely related to Greek, and Macedonian and Greek are descended from a common Greek-Macedonian idiom that was spoken till about the second half of the third millennium b.c.'' :Nice page, hope you get to working it into the Paleo-Balkan article. Graeco-Macedonian is a sort of compromise solution, note that some of the Greek nationalists agree with this, they just take the liberty of calling the Graeco-Macedonians "Hellenes" ''by definition''. A split at about 2500 BC is really the borderline between just about an early Greek dialect, and just about still "common Balkanic". The Greeks reached Greece shortly before 2000 BC, and it is questionable for how much time before that it makes any sense to call them Greeks or Hellenes (and as we know, the Hellenes themselves considered it a borderline case, as with the Olympic games etc.). At this point they were just some IE tribe of the Balkans. So, yes I think the naked facts suggest that Graeco-Macedonian is probable, but not provable ultimately, and whether to call the Proto-Graeco-Macedonians "Hellenes" is a question of terminiolgy, really. If we ''knew'' the Macedonians have preserved ''s'', I would be inclined to call them ''Sedlenes'' :o) Maybe we should say "Para-Hellenes" (but then we're not supposed to introduce new terminology) :I have no idea what Georgiev means by ::"change of IE ''ma'' into ''ta'' in Greek" :this is not a sound change. Is he talking about the superlative suffix maybe? Such a cryptic statement doesn't bode well for the remaining article, really. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 06:08, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC) Yes, he often makes vague statements. The reason I'm cautious about Georgiev and his statements is because really, though he is one of the main figures in Paleo-Balkan languages, he is not exactly definitive or completely reliable. I'm not sure how or if I should use Georgiev in the article. User:Decius 17:45, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC) ==Agriani== One Reason is because Agriani redirects to that page and Agriani is also a plural form of Agrianes. Agriani in Laconia does not related with the origin of the Agrianes like Arna in Norway and Arna in Laconia. User:Pumpie, 4/12/2005 22:40 (UTC) Thanks. User:Decius 02:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) Though the simple structure of ''Arna'' would make such a coincidence very likely, while the singular structure of ''Agriani'' would make such a coincidence (added to the closer geographical proximity) less likely. There was also a river in Thrace (which flowed into the ''Hebrus'') named Agrianes. So, unless you have a credible reference, you may only be assuming that there is no relation. User:Decius 20:37, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) Another correspondence between Paionians and Laconia is the fact that Agis was the name of several Spartan kings, as well as the name of a Paionian king. User:Decius 05:55, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Placing this material here == PIE *gembh (tooth, peg, lump, mound) compare to Hung. 'gomb'(sphere). PIE *pur (fire) compare to Hung. 'piros' (red). PIE *ghel (yellow, gold, yellow-green) compare to Hung. 'zold' (green). The point of this was not in anyway to resurrect the old attempt to link Finno-Ugric to Indo-European in that sense: the point was to compare just these three cases, and point out that there may be more, which I will leave up to someone else for now, because I'm busy. User:Decius 00:49, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC) On another note, English ''ferret'' is usually believed to derive from unattested Latin ''furritus'' by way of Old French forms, but they don't look convincing, and ''ferret'' may in fact be from Celtic (Gaulish maybe; anyway, a Celtic language once spoken in France), from PIE *wer, 'ferret'. I noticed that Celtic languages such as Irish are known to change PIE 'w' into 'f'. User:Decius 20:49, 4 May 2005 (UTC) == Los Angeles == Though your specialty is apparently related to the lands and culture cnetered on the Danube River and the Black Sea, thanks for your contributions on the lands and culture (?) centered on the confluence of the Los Angeles River and the Arroyo Seco. Cheers, -User:Willmcw 08:44, May 1, 2005 (UTC) You're welcome. It's also a pastime or hobby of mine. Gangs are part of the geography of Los Angeles, whether one likes it or not (unfortunately). User:Decius 08:49, 1 May 2005 (UTC) == O carte despre geţi == Aici e un link către o carte despre geţii din Muntenia. Nu am citit-o �ncă, aşa că nu ştiu exact cum este, �nsă pare să pună accentul pe partea arheologică. User:Bogdangiusca | User talk:Bogdangiusca 22:08, 2 May 2005 (UTC) http://i.am.home.ro/geti/muntenia.html Mulţumesc Bogdan. User:Decius 22:24, 2 May 2005 (UTC) == The Cioban Case == A linguist recently wrote that Romanian ''cioban'' may in fact be indigenous to Romanian, basing that mostly on the (admittedly) intriguing and hard to explain second rare meaning that it has in Romanian, 'a receptacle for milk'. Yet, these facts must be considered: the Turkish word ''�oban'' (id.) is surely from Persian ''shoban/shaban'' (id.), and Persian ''shaban/shoban'' are apparently in turn from Persian ''shab'', 'evening' and ''shob'', 'morning'. The shepherd is thus associated with evening/night/morning (for obvious reasons). I have yet to find out what PIE root Persian ''shab/shob'' are from, if any; but here we already see that ''shaban/shoban'' is built like this: ''shob-an'', not ''sho-ban''; likewise, ''cioban'' is built the same way: ''ciob-an'', so there cannot be an etymological relation between ''Ban (title)'' and ''cioban'' as suggested. Also, ''�oban'' is even found in Albanian (surely from Turkish). The Romanian word ''cioban'' is probably from Turkish: if not from Turkish, from another post-Roman period group. It is probably not a pre-Roman word within the context of Romanian. User:Decius 23:05, 6 May 2005 (UTC) I'm also sure that Romanian ''stǎpǎn'' and ''jupǎn'', while quite likely indigenous, are also built like this: ''stǎp-ǎn'' and ''jup-ǎn''; so again there is no relation to ''ban'' (which is even pronounced differently). User:Decius 23:11, 6 May 2005 (UTC) I'm trying to find the etymology (or etymologies) of Persian ''shaban'', ''shoban'', ''shuwan'', ''goban'', and ''gopan'' (all meaning 'shepherd'). There also seems to have been a Sumerian word ''shuba'' that meant 'shepherd', which if not just a coincidence indicates that the word is not Indo-European. User:Decius 01:59, 7 May 2005 (UTC) :i don't remember, have i told you about this welsh word "ciobair" meaning 'shepherd' ? http://www.sst.ph.ic.ac.uk/angus/Faclair -- User:Criztu 10:14, 7 May 2005 (UTC) Ah yes, the mystery thickens. Then it might be indigenous in Romanian. This is one of those strange "wanderworts" that has drifted into various languages from an unknown source perhaps. I'll add it to my "Disputed/Uncertain" section. The Gaelic example again indicates to me that the stem is ''ciob-'', suffixed later in various ways. User:Decius 15:55, 7 May 2005 (UTC) As a D.A. might say, "There is enough evidence to prosecute" in this case, so maybe the word was in Romanian before the Turkish arrival. User:Decius 16:00, 7 May 2005 (UTC) Also, we see that ''ciob'' means 'mountain-grass' in Gaelic, which makes great sense: a cioban often takes his flocks up on mountains, where they feed on mountain-grass... The stem is definitely ''ciob-''. No relation to ''ban''. In Romanian, ''ciob'' means 'a fragment' of something. That word ''ciob'' itself is most likely indigenous. User:Decius 16:18, 7 May 2005 (UTC) Who would have thought that there would be such a word in Gaelic...if the Gaelic word has no etymology, and if the Persian words have no definite etymology, then it is most likely a pre-Indo-European word. I don't like these types of coincidences: it doesn't make much of a difference to me if ''cioban'' is indigenous or from Turkish, but I find the uncertainty to be very annoying. Once a word enters Turkish it becomes hard to untangle. User:Decius 17:12, 7 May 2005 (UTC) I'm going to lay out some possibilities on the table: *ciob from an old form meaning 'dusky, night, early morning'; *ciob meaning 'sheep'; *ciob meaning 'small, cut short'; *ciob meaning 'grass'; *ciob meaning 'to watch'; *ciob meaning 'to feed'; *ciob meaning 'herd'; among others. User:Decius 17:36, 7 May 2005 (UTC) The Germanic word 'skaepa' ('sheep') is of unknown origin, though not necessarily from the same root as 'shob', etc. User:Decius 17:53, 7 May 2005 (UTC) == Anatolian languages == In a book (''Christides,A., History of Greek language ,INS, Athens 2005'') I came across some inscriptions that you might find worth of attention. A Phrygian language inscription, first half of 7th century BC: :''ATES ARKIAEFAIS AKENANOLAFOS MIDAI LAFAGETAEI FANAKTEI EDAES'' :Attes Arkiades ,the one who dedecated this,made it for Midas ,the ruler of people, the King. note the word ''LAFAGETAEI'' The word comes from Mycenaean greek ''λαφαγέτης'' (=ruler of people λαός+ηγέτης). Again the word ''FANAKTEI'' It's obvious the connection with the Greek word ''άναξ,άνακτος'' Note also that ''f'' was not pronounced as f in english, but as ''w'' in the english word Washington.It was called digamma. In various greek alphabets we have incriptions such as FΟΙΝΟΣ instead of ΟΙΝΟΣ. A Lycian language inscription, from the Lycian city Tlos 3rd century followed by the greek translation. :''EBEIS TUKEDRIS ME TUWETE XSSBEZE KRUPSSEH TIDEIMI SE PURIHIMETEH TUHES TLANNA ATRU EHBRI SE LADU EHBI TIKEUKEPRE PILLENNI URTAQIJAHN KBATRU SE PRIJENUBEHN TULESH.'' :''Πόρπαξ Θρύψιος,Πυριβάτους αδελφιδούς,Τλωεύς,εαυτόν καί τήν γυναίκα Τισεθσέμβραν έκ Πινάρων Ορτακία θυγατέρα,Πριανόβα αδελφιδήν,Απόλλωνι'' :(=these statues are Kseebeze,son of Krupssi and cousin of Purihimeti,from Tlos,who made them stand,his own and his wife's,Tikeukepre,who was born at Pinara,and was son of Urtaqiya and cousin of Prienuba) a Lydian language,from Sardeis of 350 BC on a statue of godess Artemis,followed by the greek translation. :''Nannas Bakivalis Artimul'' :''Νάννας,Διονυσικλέους Αρτέμιδι'' :(=Nannas,son of Dionysikles to Artemis) On a more deep research into Greek language I would suggest you the Liddell-Scott Greek lexicon (Clarenton Press,Oxford),Chantraine,P.,Dictionnaire etymologique de la langue greque,Klincksieck,Paris 1999 or Thomson, G., Greek language,ancient and modern User:Odysseas 17:28, 10 May 2005 (UTC) :Thanks Odysseas. I have a Liddel & Scott Greek-English lexicon, and I also reference Perseus, Beekes' Ancient Greek Etymological Dictionary, and whatever I find at the library. I'm looking for a text of Hesychius' lexicon, which has many rare forms included. User:Decius 20:44, 10 May 2005 (UTC) :Phrygian and Lycian and Lydian, though not on the Hellenic branch, are considered nevertheless to have been somewhat close to Greek. We also see that these Anatolian languages have some of the same pre-Indo-European (or ''presumably'' pre-Indo-European) words that Greek had. Example: Greek ''Bacchus'' (unknown origin); Lydian ''Bakivalis'' (unknown origin).User:Decius 21:08, 10 May 2005 (UTC) :"close to Greek" not genetically, but areally. Loanwords. Pegasus for example is a Luwian loanword in Greek. I can send you the Hesychius text, some time, if you like. User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 14:07, 30 May 2005 (UTC) Anytime you want to pass on the text, pass it on. User:Decius 14:16, 30 May 2005 (UTC) ==negligible Romanization below the Jirecek line== I'm going to gather more references to make it even clearer that there was very little Romanization south of the Jirecek line. The province of Thracia, for instance, was not a place of notable Romanization---the Thracians in Thracia were mostly Hellenized, starting before the Roman conquest. The Romanian language originates from Romanization in the province of Dacia or Moesia (Dacia Nova): not Thracia, Macedonia, or any other southern province. Not from the Adriatic coast either. The best reference for that is the fact that the Dalmatian language is a product of Romanization along the Adriatic Balkan coast. User:Decius 05:09, 20 May 2005 (UTC) == User:Zivinbudas == I've now officially requested an Arbitration against User:Zivinbudas. As one of the people who were involved in previous attempts at compromise with him, you might be interested in the case. Also, feel free to list yourself as one of the parties involved Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Involved_parties_5. User:HalibuttUser talk:Halibutt 04:05, May 30, 2005 (UTC) I added my name to the list. Thanks. User:Decius 10:46, 30 May 2005 (UTC) ==ciobair== hi Decius -- I finally tried to look up ''ciobair'', but I'm afraid I was not successful. It doesn't appear to be even Old Irish, let alone Proto-Celtic. There is Old Irish ''cobair'' "help", so I could imagine the sheperd was originally just the "aide", but I don't know. Maybe I'll still stumble on something, later. regards, User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 14:01, 30 May 2005 (UTC) Thanks Dab, I'll try to find more info on it to. User:Decius 14:06, 30 May 2005 (UTC) ==Graphic-analytical method== Thanks for having a look. I've put it on VfD, if you want to weigh in... Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Graphic-analytical method. - User:Mustafaa 17:03, 31 May 2005 (UTC) Thanks, I'll check it out. User:Decius 17:04, 31 May 2005 (UTC) ==XMK== thanks for your continued effort on Ancient Macedonian, Decius. It ''is'' quite boring, and I was glad to see your name continue to show up on my watchlist, so I knew the case was being looked after. regards, User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 21:24, 31 May 2005 (UTC) We can only hope that Miskin will realize that as long as the sentences he writes are misrepresenting a situation, his edits will not last, so he is wasting his and everybody else's time with every spurious edit. He seems to be another one of those one-subject people, not interested in any other subject on Wikipedia. User:Decius 21:29, 31 May 2005 (UTC) == Arbitration Committee case opening == Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Zivinbudas has been accepted and is now open. Please bring evidence to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Zivinbudas/Evidence. Thank you. -- User:Sannse User talk:Sannse 10:03, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC) Thanks, but I might pass on this one. I'm sure it will be handled properly. User:Decius 01:19, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Nationalist propaganda == Congrats for reverting that instance of dumb ethnic point-scoring; he's doing it all over (ie., Alexander the Great). User:Lectiodifficilior 04:47, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC) Yeah, it will be a constant problem in an open internet project like Wikipedia is. Yet the simple math of the situation is that overall the nationalist edits do not last long. User:Decius 22:05, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC) == New Category:Ancient astronomy == ::If you disagree with the categorization you can remove the category tag from the article. I am not in disagreement with it either way, I was just trying to get more articles listed in the category. BTW, do you know of any other articles which should be listed in Category:Ancient astronomy?--User:AI 18:16, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC) :::I'll look for more. Sorry for seeming hostile. Ancient astronomy is a good category you created, but of course it must be put on the articles that really demand it. User:Decius 22:52, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::::I didn't take it as hostility. I appreciate other viewpoints.--User:AI 22:58, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Igigi== From what I remember, "Igigi" in Sumerian can be translated as "the Watchers", since ''igi'' in Sumerian meant 'eye'. This group of gods, the Igigi, would then be "the Watchers" in Sumerian mythology. Trying to find a reference that affirms this, so I can add that to the article. User:Decius 00:57, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) Google search indicates this also. I know for a fact that ''igi'' meant 'eye' in Sumerian, so I'm just looking for one good reference (those websites that just came up aren't good enough in my opinion). User:Decius 01:03, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Sumerian cosmology == I made changes to Nibiru and Tiamat and removed a category from Kingu. Why? It had to be done, because as far as I know, Sitchin's interpretations of the tablets are not widely accepted. If I made mistakes in my edits, be sure to correct them or dispute them. User:Decius 02:06, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) :You ought to take a look at the tablets yourself. Sitchins wild enterpretations are not necessary to establish that Nibiru, Tiamat, and Kingu were also considered celestial bodies by the Sumerians. Especially interesting is the tablet which illustrates their idea of the solar system :) --User:AI 02:12, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Decius' AK-47 == "but I still have an AK-47 in my closet as a memento to my earlier days." - Decius ::Hey Decius do you really get to keep an AK-47 in your closet? You know they don't allow those in LA even for Romanians :D --User:AI 03:53, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) I know that they are illegal. Marijuana is also illegal. User:Decius 03:57, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) I would like to upload an image of me brandishing the AK-47 soon, to clear all the rumors. But first I have to figure out how to upload images. User:Decius 05:38, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Plasma cosmology == I left a response at my talk page. –User:Joke137 19:16, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Hello== I have been discussing some with you on the Reptilian Humanoid discussion page, and decided to ask you if you are interested in contacting and further discussing information, relating to linguistics, the Dacians, and other topics, via e-mail, rather than wasting memory on the wikimedia servers. Mail me at mt633749@dal.ca (Dalhousie University account) Anonymous Thanks, I plan on e-mailing you in the future, either from my e-mail address or someone else's. Not that I'm paranoid, of course. :) User:Decius 04:46, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC) == lots of edits, not an admin == Hi - I made a list of users who've been around long enough to have made lots of edits but aren't admins. If you're at all interested in becoming an admin, can you please add an '*' immediately before your name in User:Rick Block/WP600 not admins? I've suggested folks nominating someone might want to puruse this list. Thanks. -- user:Rick Block (user talk:Rick Block) 22:37, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC) Thanks Rick. For now, I'm content with being a regular contributor. User:Decius 22:40, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC) == New article list == Salut! Uite aicea este un forum bun unde poti sa dezbati istorie: http://p083.ezboard.com/fbalkansfrm10 PS: Cum de ai stiut de articolul despre Ecaterina Teodoroiu? Exista o lista unde sunt scrise toate articorile care sunt noi? Anittas Salut. Ţi-am lǎsat un mesaj: User talk:Anittas. User:Decius 03:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Bună == You're at least right about one thing, that this has a great importance to Greeks, much greater than what you initially thought, and by my word of honour I'm no propagandist neither a nationalist, I just hate distortion of history that sources from modern political debates. When it's about your history of course it gets even worse. If you want to support what I consider neutrality then vote at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Macedonian_Slavs#The_poll. User:Miskin 10:39, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) I'm right about a lot of things actually. User:Decius 11:13, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Slavic pride == I'm much dissapointed in your judgement. Concluding that Macedonians do not want to be called Macedonian Slavs because of their lack of Slavic pride, is, in one word, nonsense. They will be equally aggravated if they are called Macedonian Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, or whatever add-on. I suggest that you test your neutrality and try to describe why the world shouldn't refer to the modern Egyptians as Egyptians, but as Egyptian Arabs. Good luck. (from a stupid slavic crowd member.--User:FlavrSavr 09:01, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)) It was my personal decision. I do not think the Macedonian "X-people" are one ounce less worthy or dignified or valorous than any others---but is it right that they should be called Macedonians? I can't say it is right, given that other people identify as Macedonians (if not as a nationality). But don't take this Wikipedia poll too seriously: we are not engaging in international policy. And few things in Wikipedia are set in stone. User:Decius 09:11, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) If in the future, historians or archaeologists discover that a portion of the ancient Macedonians still speaking Macedonian were rather peacefully assimilated by the Slavic tribes, I would change my mind (though such a discovery is nearly impossible to make---but not quite impossible). But it seems to me that even if any were left, the assimilation overall was not peaceful. User:Decius 09:31, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) :So, you do think that Egyptians should be called Egyptian Arabs? --User:FlavrSavr 10:00, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) But does any ethnic group outside of Egypt have a connection to the term Egyptian the way groups outside of the Republic of Macedonia have to the term Macedonian? There is no dispute in that Egyptian situation as far as I know. If there was a sound dispute in that situation, I would prefer the term Egyptian Arab. User:Decius 10:04, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) :Ok, let's make something clear: I'm not intending to change your mind. I've enjoyed our previous conversations, and I was quite surprised when you started equating Slavs with Slavic speaking people, and laying down the "Slavic pride" issue, (which I still consider illogical). So, I'm really intending to a mutual deeping of understanding the nature of the "Macedonian Slavs" dispute. Unlike the majority of Greek nationalists, clearly ignoring all the facts (please see the latest vote on their side), I'm trying to understand their defiance, and I'm still rather confused - how come our ethnic self-determination deprives them from their regional self-determination? As for the Egyptians issue, it is true that there aren't any external claims of the copyright of the term "Egyptian", but there are inner groups, such as the Copts, that are claiming historical heritage of the ancient Egyptians. However, the fact that there isn't any ''larger political'' dispute doesn't make it less important that Copts also have right to be the "true" Egyptians. --User:FlavrSavr 10:33, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) I don't know why your national determination would deprive them of their regional determination. As you probably realize, that's something only Greeks and those other groups who have claims to the term can answer: if even they can answer. That question didn't form my opinion, which was based on those considerations I mentioned above. Thanks for not trying to change my mind, because you were making me feel guilty---even though I think I did the right thing, at least considering what we know of the historical situation and also considering the modern dispute of who has rights to the term. User:Decius 10:51, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) I've reconsidered and explained my position: no historical or territorial claims have to be indulged in association with the term, but the term has too much momentum to hope to stop its usage even in Wikipedia. User:Decius 00:56, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Chronographos== sorry Decius, but I think you were unreasonably incivil towards Chg. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAncient_Macedonian_language&diff=15413463&oldid=15413091 this] edit is just biting the newbies (arguably, he has <100 edits), and Chg is obviously a good faith editor, prepared to discuss his edits, or at least he does look extremely reasonable compared to people like Miskin. It's not Chg's fault that Miskin has almost driven you mad in the past :) User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 10:37, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) 'Graphos came into the debate with the wrong tone from the beginning, and I don't regret a word I said. User:Decius 10:52, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) Miskin is stubborn, but I get along with him most of the time. At least, we communicate and come to terms (I think). User:Decius 11:58, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) :ok, Decius, I guess it's just antipathy on first sight, then. I still hope we'll just get back on topic and drop the name-calling (this goes for 'graphos too, of course). regards, User:Dbachmann User_talk:Dbachmann 12:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) Okay, I agree that I shouldn't have directed the word 'prick' at him, since he had made no prior snide comment directed at me at all. But I don't regret using the words 'low', 'smug', or 'weasel'---he deserved 'weasel' because after I extended the "olive branch", he proceeded to make that weasel-remark concerning scientific "training" (?) and no knowledge of ancient Greek, etc. I'm not necessarily suggesting he's a weasel in real life---but that remark was a weasel-remark, no way around it. User:Decius 01:25, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Skanderbeg == Can you revert the article Skanderbeg to the last change by me [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Skanderbeg&diff=0&oldid=15436840]. And can you please ask a administrator for protection to the article since their have been a few Serbian ultranationalists who are gladly to claim him as one of their own. Thank you in advance! User:Albanau 12:22, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) I would revert if I knew that you are correct in this situation (I don't know who is correct here), but I have to admit I have not studied Skanderbeg and I cannot make the call here. User:Decius 12:26, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) Skanderbeg was not Serb of course, his mother Vjosava was daughter to the Albanian prince Prenku of Mirdita, and his father was John Kastriota the Albanian prince of Kruja who married Vjosava to strength the relation between the two tribes the Kastriotes and the Mirditas. The theory of Skanderbeg Serbian origin is something that Serbian nationalists have invented, other Greek nationalist claim that he was Greek. The the users are just filling the article with propaganda, can't you see that? --User:Albanau 13:00, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) I haven't studied the opinions of historians on Skanderbeg, so I can't say for certain what is propaganda & what isn't in his situation---I can't get too involved in that article till I review what the historians say, and what the prevalent opinion is, or if there even is one interpretation that is prevalent over the others. User:Decius 13:06, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) The theory of the Serbian origin of Skanderbeg is propaganda. Skanderbeg is very important figure, the defender of christianity and the fighter against the Turks muslims, I understand why christian Serbs and Greek ultranationalist want to claim him, in some sites i've read that he was half Greek, half Serb. The article Skanderbeg needs to be protected from editing to deal with vandalism and Serbian ultranationalist claim on the great Albanian hero! User:Albanau 13:16, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) :Albanau is hardly a neutral part in this matter, if he is indeed the same as the one I saw on ''skalman''. If he is not I apologize for making the connection.--User:Wiglaf 13:21, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) I can't find any neutral sources that support the theory that Skanderbeg had Serbian or Greek origin, this is typical balkanian dogmatic paranoia. --User:Albanau 13:28, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) It might be. But I don't know. I'll keep an eye out for works dealing with Iskander & see what I find. User:Decius 13:30, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Theathenae == I can't escape admitting the truth and I'm absolutely honest when I state this: Theathenae is a Greek propagandist, see his edit [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arvanites&diff=0&oldid=15460261], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arvanitic_language&diff=0&oldid=15460171]. Theathenae is a Greek person living in Sweden, he is known in swedish wikipedia as [http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anv%E4ndare:Arvan%EDtis Arvan�tis], and his IP-number is 211.28.182.244, see [http://sv.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sulioter&action=history], [http://sv.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arvan%EDtis&action=history]. With this IP-number he have also contributed in the english wikipedia, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arvanites&diff=15280309&oldid=15249740]. He have tried to dis-link every affinity that Arvanites have with the southern Albanians, the language and ethnicity, the Arvanites are infact originally a Albanian ethnic group originating in central Albania and the language Arvan�tika is a variety of Tosk Albanian, [http://print.google.com/print?id=PBeGOLDusJgC&pg=1&lpg=1&prev=http://print.google.com/print%3Fie%3DUTF-8%26q%3DArvan%25C3%25ADtika%26btnG%3DSearch&sig=hbbVLyhh81VcLlAuvbitililU4w]. I don't deny the fact that the Arvanites have absorbed a lot of Greek element through intermarriage and interaction with Greeks through the centuries and that the language has been heavily influenced by Greek. But Theathenae deny the very fact that the Arvanites (like the [[Arb�resh�]) were a originally a Albanian ethnic group that came to Greece, Theathenae mention them just as 'a people', this part of the article confused me. . I think it's necessary to confirm that they are originally Albanian ethnic group. You should take a look on this articles, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kolonj%EB_District&diff=15450513&oldid=14950249], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kor%E7%EB&diff=15211714&oldid=15194688], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kor%E7%EB_District&diff=15450301&oldid=14943488], he claim the vlach people in Albania as Greeks. The vlach people in Greece have proably a lot of Greek elements but those vlach in Albania have absorbed a lot of Albanian element through intermarriage and interaction with the Albanian people and are intergrated into the Albanian society. Look also at this: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lake_Prespa&diff=15460091&oldid=15458482], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lake_Prespa&diff=0&oldid=15460197]. Something must be done with him, he contribute to much