==Example of...information rich structures== You said, ''"Give me an example outside of the case under investigation and show me information-rich structures that we know scientifically arose from ONLY natural laws and randomness."'' Ok. Fractals Go read Choas, by James Gliek (1988). Great book. It shreads the irreducible complexity concept, 10yrs prior to the introduction of the ID movement. But it also provides good underpinnings for philosophical concept of ID. Please let me know if you have questions. Oh, btw, fractals and chaos theory helped lead me back to faith.... But I come to ID from a agnostic Deist (not Theist) POV, with a strong background in analytical science.--User:A ghost 21:47, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) :Hi ghost. I actually took a college class on chaos theory as part of my math degree and read the book you recommended... and perhaps even more interesting to our discussion, William Dembski was leading researcher in chaos theory. (Says so in the Preface to The Design Revolution.) :Fractals are very interesting, but how do they show that they transmit information? DNA/RNA transmits data to each cell telling it how to function, much like html or C++ code tells your computer how to function. Chaos theory, to the best of my knowledge, is simply the study of non-linear equations and what systems governed by such dynamics would operate like. There isn't any transmission of information, that I know of. :But I'm even more curious as to how Chaos theory brought you from agnosticism to deism. I have several good friends who are deists, as well. :Always glad to discuss such matters. User:Dbergan 22:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::Because fractals are arguably the most efficient information storage & transmission system in mathmatics. That's why I was working with Iterated Systems 10yrs ago. And now [http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.05/fractal.html things are getting interesting.] My interests forced me to ask myself a philosophical question: ''Natural systems are transmitting huge amounts of data. Amounts that appear to exceed the bandwidth needed for reproduction. Therefore, something else is going on. What is it, and why is it happening?'' This led me to view fractals as the signature of the Divine. But I keep my personal philosophies, ID friendly as they are, tempered by the knowledge that they teeter on the brink of the Razor. I don't want to see ID in my sons' schools. I want them making their own decisions. If those decisions bring them to faith, wonderful. If not, who am I to question the wisdom of Free Will? This is why I end up in both camps.--User:A ghost 12:50, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC) :::Interesting. Sounds like the new wave in vector graphics. So fractals can be used to transmit information just like we can use electric impulses, paper and ink, or smoke signals... However that's not the same as an information transmitting mechanism. Just because intelligent beings can encode their message (the picture) in fractals, send it over the internet, and then decode it on the other side isn't saying anything new except that fractals are potentially a much more sophisticated way of doing it that we currently have. Or am I misuderstanding you? User:Dbergan 21:00, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::::You're missing my point, my friend. Have a look at the fractal structures in the back of your hand. Interesting how they follow the same patterns of construction as the neural network in your brain. I don't believe in coincidences. What I'm saying is, fractals give us Deists a means of addressing the issue of irreducible complexity. By seeing the fractal patterns repeat on atomic, microscopic, and astronomic levels I find my Lego in the sand....and the universe looks likes it's made out of them....even the sand...and it's beautiful.--User:A ghost 21:39, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Signature== Um, Dave, did you change your signature? It now reads User:Dbergan. If so, that's um....interesting.--User:A ghost 19:45, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC) :LMAO. Ok, np then. ...And I thought I was the only one with a sense of self-depreciating humor. LOL. I was way wrong. Touche.--User:A ghost 19:53, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My real name is David Bergan. I have degrees in Math, Computer Science, Religion, and Philosophy. I currently work as a C.E.O. for a [http://www.dakotaeyecare.com/ vision care benefits company] in [http://www.madison.sd.us/ Madison], [http://www.state.sd.us/ South Dakota]. In my spare time I read books, write music, [http://www.silicontornado.com/ make video games], and engage in intellectual discussions. My favorite topics include world history, world religions, philosophy, and intelligent design. My favorite authors are C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton, George MacDonald, Will Durant and William Dembski. For literature I also admire Goethe and Shakespeare. For philosophy I also enjoy Plato and Blaise Pascal. My favorite composers are Schubert, Beethoven, Felix Mendelssohn, and Tchaikovsky. My favorite rock bands are Bon Jovi, Creed (band), and Evanescence. The greatest book I have ever read (outside the Bible) is The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. Bookmarks for me (boring for you) *Wikipedia:Redirect *User:Dbergan/Stuff *Wikipedia:How_to_revert_a_page_to_an_earlier_version
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Dbergan
Dbergan
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Dbergan
==Example of...information rich structures== You said, ''"Give me an example outside of the case under investigation and show me information-rich structures that we know scientifically arose from ONLY natural laws and randomness."'' Ok. Fractals Go read Choas, by James Gliek (1988). Great book. It shreads the irreducible complexity concept, 10yrs prior to the introduction of the ID movement. But it also provides good underpinnings for philosophical concept of ID. Please let me know if you have questions. Oh, btw, fractals and chaos theory helped lead me back to faith.... But I come to ID from a agnostic Deist (not Theist) POV, with a strong background in analytical science.--User:A ghost 21:47, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) :Hi ghost. I actually took a college class on chaos theory as part of my math degree and read the book you recommended... and perhaps even more interesting to our discussion, William Dembski was leading researcher in chaos theory. (Says so in the Preface to The Design Revolution.) :Fractals are very interesting, but how do they show that they transmit information? DNA/RNA transmits data to each cell telling it how to function, much like html or C++ code tells your computer how to function. Chaos theory, to the best of my knowledge, is simply the study of non-linear equations and what systems governed by such dynamics would operate like. There isn't any transmission of information, that I know of. :But I'm even more curious as to how Chaos theory brought you from agnosticism to deism. I have several good friends who are deists, as well. :Always glad to discuss such matters. User:Dbergan 22:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::Because fractals are arguably the most efficient information storage & transmission system in mathmatics. That's why I was working with Iterated Systems 10yrs ago. And now [http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.05/fractal.html things are getting interesting.] My interests forced me to ask myself a philosophical question: ''Natural systems are transmitting huge amounts of data. Amounts that appear to exceed the bandwidth needed for reproduction. Therefore, something else is going on. What is it, and why is it happening?'' This led me to view fractals as the signature of the Divine. But I keep my personal philosophies, ID friendly as they are, tempered by the knowledge that they teeter on the brink of the Razor. I don't want to see ID in my sons' schools. I want them making their own decisions. If those decisions bring them to faith, wonderful. If not, who am I to question the wisdom of Free Will? This is why I end up in both camps.--User:A ghost 12:50, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC) :::Interesting. Sounds like the new wave in vector graphics. So fractals can be used to transmit information just like we can use electric impulses, paper and ink, or smoke signals... However that's not the same as an information transmitting mechanism. Just because intelligent beings can encode their message (the picture) in fractals, send it over the internet, and then decode it on the other side isn't saying anything new except that fractals are potentially a much more sophisticated way of doing it that we currently have. Or am I misuderstanding you? User:Dbergan 21:00, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::::You're missing my point, my friend. Have a look at the fractal structures in the back of your hand. Interesting how they follow the same patterns of construction as the neural network in your brain. I don't believe in coincidences. What I'm saying is, fractals give us Deists a means of addressing the issue of irreducible complexity. By seeing the fractal patterns repeat on atomic, microscopic, and astronomic levels I find my Lego in the sand....and the universe looks likes it's made out of them....even the sand...and it's beautiful.--User:A ghost 21:39, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Signature== Um, Dave, did you change your signature? It now reads User:Dbergan. If so, that's um....interesting.--User:A ghost 19:45, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC) :LMAO. Ok, np then. ...And I thought I was the only one with a sense of self-depreciating humor. LOL. I was way wrong. Touche.--User:A ghost 19:53, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Dbergan
My real name is David Bergan. I have degrees in Math, Computer Science, Religion, and Philosophy. I currently work as a C.E.O. for a [http://www.dakotaeyecare.com/ vision care benefits company] in [http://www.madison.sd.us/ Madison], [http://www.state.sd.us/ South Dakota]. In my spare time I read books, write music, [http://www.silicontornado.com/ make video games], and engage in intellectual discussions. My favorite topics include world history, world religions, philosophy, and intelligent design. My favorite authors are C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton, George MacDonald, Will Durant and William Dembski. For literature I also admire Goethe and Shakespeare. For philosophy I also enjoy Plato and Blaise Pascal. My favorite composers are Schubert, Beethoven, Felix Mendelssohn, and Tchaikovsky. My favorite rock bands are Bon Jovi, Creed (band), and Evanescence. The greatest book I have ever read (outside the Bible) is The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. Bookmarks for me (boring for you) *Wikipedia:Redirect *User:Dbergan/Stuff *Wikipedia:How_to_revert_a_page_to_an_earlier_version
See other meanings of words starting from letter:
D
DA | DB | DC | DE | DF | DG | DH | DI | DJ | DK | DL | DM | DN | DO | DP | DR | DS | DT | DU | DW | DX | DY | DZ |Words begining with Dbergan:
Dbergan
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