Cyberpunk

Cyberpunk (a portmanteau of cybernetics and punk music) is a sub-genre of science fiction which focuses on computers or information technology, usually coupled with some degree of breakdown in social order. The plot of cyberpunk literature often revolves around the conflict between hackers, artificial intelligences, and megacorps, tending to be set within a near-future dystopian Earth, rather than the 'outer space' locales prevalent at the time of cyberpunk's inception. It is the result of a self-correction in the science fiction genre, which classically had ignored the importance of information technology. ==Subculture== The cyberpunk subculture is a group of rebellious and technology loving people who choose to use cyberpunk as a label. They typically are hackers, crackers, and various other geeky sorts of people. Drug use is popular among some cyberpunks (particularly ravers), but not all. The cyberpunk subculture is also known for anarchist leanings. ==Style== [[Image: lain_hacker_small.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The hacker as hero: Lain from ''Serial Experiments Lain'']] Cyberpunk writers tend to use elements from the hard-boiled detective fiction, film noir, and postmodernism prose to describe the (often nihilism) underground side of the digital society which started to evolve in the last two decades of the 20th century. Cyberpunk's dystopia world has been called the antithesis of much of the mid-twentieth century's generally utopian visions of the future. Bruce Sterling summarized the cyberpunk ethos in the following way: :Anything that can be done to a rat can be done to a human being. We can do just about anything you can imagine to rats. And closing your eyes and refusing to think about this won't make it go away. :''That'' is cyberpunk. In cyberpunk literature, much of the action takes place online, in cyberspace—any clear borderline between the real and the virtual reality becomes blurred. A typical (though not universal) feature of the genre is a direct connection between the human brain and computer systems. Cyberpunk's world is a sinister, dark place with networked computers that dominate every aspect of life. Giant multinational corporations have replaced governments as centres of power. The alienation outsider's battle against a Totalitarianism system is a common theme in science fiction; in conventional science fiction, those systems tended to be sterile, ordered, and state-controlled. In sharp contrast, cyberpunk shows the seamy underbelly of corporatocracy, and the The Myth of Sisyphus against their power by disillusioned renegades. Protagonists in cyberpunk literature usually include computer hackers, who are often patterned on the idea of the lone hero fighting injustice: Western gunslingers, samurai (especially ronin), ninja, etc. Protagonists are distinguished from others by their foul language, appreciation of art, and roguish charm—knaves, not nobles. The protagonists are usually ordinary, often disenfranchised people in extraordinary situations as opposed to the usual brilliant scientist or eager adventurer who is confident and ready to confront the situations that they face. Cyberpunk characters typically represent the Underdog (competition). Because they are nobody special, they are not typically smarter, braver, or more charismatic than the next person. They are often manipulated as opposed to calling the shots and although they might see things through, they don't necessarily come out any further ahead than they previously were. This is in direct contrast to the archetype Joseph Campbell "Monomyth" popularized with ''Star Wars.'' Cyberpunk literature tends to be strongly dystopian and pessimistic. It is often a metaphor for the present day, reflecting worries about large corporations, corruption in governments, and alienation. Some cyberpunk authors also intend their works to act as warnings of possible futures that may follow from current trends. As such, cyberpunk is often written with the intention of disquieting readers and calling them to action. A variety of commentators have taken the "canonical" cyberpunk works to task, pointing out dubious aspects of the genre. To quote Nicola Nixon in the July 1992 ''Science Fiction Studies,'' :For all its stylish allusions to popular culture—to punk rock, to designer drugs, to cult cinema, to street slang and computer-hacker (counter?) culture—cyberpunk fiction is, in the end, not radical at all. Its slickness and apparent subversiveness conceal a complicity with ’80s conservatism which is perhaps confirmed by the astonishing acceptance of the genre by such publications as ''The Wall Street Journal,'' ''The Washington Post,'' and ''The New York Times,'' and by the ease with which it can be accommodated and applauded in the glossy pages of such American mainstream (boys') magazines as ''Omni.'' Sterling argues in ''Mirrorshades'' that the cyberpunk movement "is not an invasion but a modern reform" (xv). "Reforming" what, we might well ask? Certainly not SF's gender politics. [http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/backissues/57/nixon57art.htm] See also the references therein, and the Jargon File's viewpoint discussed #Cyberpunk music. Some social theorists see cyberpunk stories as fictional forecasts of the evolution of the Internet. The Virtual World of the Internet often appears in cyberpunk under various names, including "cyberspace", the ''Wired'' (from ''Serial Experiments Lain''), the ''Metaverse'' (as seen in ''Snow Crash''), the ''Matrix (Doctor Who)'' (originally from ''Doctor Who'', later in ''Neuromancer'', and further popularized by the role playing game ''Shadowrun'' and later by the movie ''The Matrix''). ===List of elements common in cyberpunk=== *Hacker *Cyberspace *Virtual reality *Artificial intelligence *Cybernetics and cyborgs *Urban sprawl and slums *Organized crime (''e.g.'', Yakuza) *Cowboy-like anti-heroes *Megacorp (''e.g.'', Zaibatsus) *Nanotechnology *Genetic engineering *Drugs and biochemistry *Terrorism (esp. cyber-terrorism) *References to Punk rock, goth, and industrial rock *References to shamanism and Cult (''e.g.'', Voodoo) ==History== The science fiction editor Gardner Dozois is generally acknowledged as being the person who popularized the term "cyberpunk" as a genre of literature. Minnesota writer Bruce Bethke coined the term originally in 1980 for his short story "Cyberpunk", although the story was not actually published until November 1983, in ''Amazing Science Fiction Stories'', Volume 57, Number 4. The term was quickly appropriated as a label to be applied to the works of Bruce Sterling, John Shirley, William Gibson (novelist), Rudy Rucker, Michael Swanwick, Pat Cadigan, Richard Kadrey, and others. John Shirley's articles on Sterling and Rucker can be read [http://www.darkecho.com/JohnShirley/jspunks.html here]. Early observers hailed cyberpunk as a radical departure from SF standards and a new manifestation of vitality. Shortly thereafter, however, as Paul Brians of Washington State University notes, :cyberpunk's status as the revolutionary vanguard was almost immediately challenged. Its narrative techniques, many critics pointed out, were positively reactionary compared to the experimentalism of mid-60s "New Wave (science fiction)" SF. One of the main sources of its vision was William S. Burroughs' quasi-SF novels like ''Nova Express'' (1964), and the voice of Gibson's narrator sounded oddly like a slightly updated version of old Raymond Chandler novels like ''The Big Sleep'' (1939). Others pointed out that almost all of cyberpunk's characteristics could be found in the works of older writers such as J. G. Ballard, Philip K. Dick, Harlan Ellison, or Samuel R. Delany. Most damning of all, it didn't seem to have been claimed by the generation it claimed to represent. Real punks did little reading, and the vast majority of young SF readers preferred to stick with traditional storytellers such as Larry Niven, Anne McCaffrey, and even Robert Heinlein. Gibson's prose was too dense and tangled for casual readers, so it is not surprising that he gained more of a following among academics than among the sort of people it depicted. ''Heavy Metal (magazine)'' comics and ''Max Headroom'' brought more of the cyberpunk vision to a young audience than did the fiction. [http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/science_fiction/neuromancer.html] As new writers and artists began to experiment with cyberpunk ideas, new varieties of fiction emerged, sometimes addressing the criticisms leveled at the original cyberpunk canon. Lawrence Person argues, :Many writers who grew up reading in the 1980s are just now starting to have their stories and novels published. To them cyberpunk was not a revolution or alien philosophy invading SF, but rather just another flavor of SF. Like the writers of the 1970s and 80s who assimilated the New Wave's classics and stylistic techniques without necessarily knowing or even caring about the manifestos and ideologies that birthed them, today's new writers might very well have read ''Neuromancer'' back to back with Isaac Asimov's ''Foundation,'' John Brunner's ''Stand on Zanzibar'', and Larry Niven's ''Ringworld'' and seen not discontinuities but a continuum. [http://slashdot.org/features/99/10/08/2123255.shtml] In the essay quoted here, Person advocates the term "postcyberpunk" to label the new works produced by such writers. In this view, typical postcyberpunk stories continue the preoccupation with the effects of computers, but without the assumption of dystopia or the emphasis on cybernetic implants. Shortly after Person posted this essay to Slashdot, readers observed that the term was possibly superfluous—one more piece of jargon invented to shore up false distinctions. Like practically all categories discerned within science fiction, the boundaries of postcyberpunk are likely to be fluid or ill-defined. An unusual sub-sub-genre of cyberpunk is steampunk, which is set in an anachronistic Victorian era environment, but with cyberpunk's bleak, film noir worldview. ''The Difference Engine'' was probably the novel that helped bring this genre to the forefront. Cyberprep is a term that reflects the flip side of cyberpunk. A cyberprep world assumes that all the technological advancements of cyberpunk speculation have taken place, but that life is happy rather than gritty and dangerous. Since society is leisure-driven, mind transfer is more of an art form or a medium of entertainment while advanced body modifications are used for sports and pleasure. The early nineties saw the emergence of biopunk, a derivative sub-genre building not on informational technology but on biology, the other dominating scientific field of the end of the twentieth century. Individuals are enhanced not by mechanical means, but by genetic manipulation of their very chromosomes. Paul Di Filippo is seen as the most prominent biopunk writer, although Bruce Sterling's Shaper/Mechanist cycle is clearly a major influence. :''See also the List of cyberpunk works#Notable precursors to the genre.'' ==Cyberpunk writers and works== William Gibson (novelist) with his novel ''Neuromancer'' (1984) is likely the most famous writer connected with the term cyberpunk. He emphasized style, character development, and atmosphere over traditional science-fictional tropes, and ''Neuromancer'' was awarded the Hugo award, Nebula award, and Philip K. Dick Memorial Award Awards. According to the Jargon File, :Gibson's near-total ignorance of computers and the present-day hacker culture enabled him to speculate about the role of computers and hackers in the future in ways hackers have since found both irritatingly na�ve and tremendously stimulating. Other famous cyberpunk writers include Bruce Sterling (who functioned as cyberpunk's chief ideologue with his fanzine ''Cheap Truth''), Rudy Rucker, Pat Cadigan, Jeff Noon, and Neal Stephenson. Raymond Chandler with his bleak, cynical worldview and staccato prose strongly influenced the creators of the genre. The world of cyberpunk is the dystopian, hopeless world of film noir, but this is pushed just a little bit into the future. Philip K. Dick also had a strong influence on the genre; his works contain recurring themes of social decay, artificial intelligence, paranoia, and blurred lines between reality and some kind of virtual reality. Dick's characters are also marginalized more often than not. :''See also the List of cyberpunk works#Print media.'' ==Cyberpunk films== Los_Angeles,_California_as_''Blade_Runner''_imagines">Image:BladeRunner Bradbury.jpg|thumb|380px|The world of 2019 Los Angeles, California as ''Blade Runner'' imagines The film ''Blade Runner'' (1982) inspired from Philip K. Dick's ''Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?'' is set in a dystopian future in which manufactured beings called replicants are slaves used on space colonies and are legal prey on Earth to various bounty hunters who "retire" (kill) them. The ''Robocop'' series has a more near-futuristic setting where at least one list of fictional companies, Omni Consumer Products, is an all-powerful presence in the city of Detroit. The short-lived television series ''Max Headroom'' also introduced many viewers to the genre. The anime movie ''Ghost in the Shell'' is often hailed as a cyberpunk classic. It explores the boundaries between man and machine in a futuristic Japan. The television series ''Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex'' carries over the characters from ''Ghost in the Shell'' to explore the movie's world in more sociological depth. Indeed, this focus upon the social impact of network technology has led some commentators to feel that the television series leans more toward being a product of the postcyberpunk period. ''The Matrix'' and its sequels/spin-offs—including ''The Matrix Reloaded,'' ''The Matrix Revolutions,'' and ''Animatrix''—took and utilized certain elements of cyberpunk, such as the concept of a virtual reality so realistic as to be indistinguishable from the real world and the idea of direct brain-to-computer connections. :''See also the List of cyberpunk works#List of films and List of cyberpunk works#List of TV series.'' ==Cyberpunk music and fashion== The term "cyperpunk music" can refer to two, rather overlapping categories. First, it may denote the varied range of musical works which cyberpunk films use as soundtrack material. These works occur in genres from classical music and jazz—used, in ''Blade Runner'' and elsewhere, to evoke a ''film noir'' ambiance—to "Noise music" and electronica. Typically, films draw upon electronica, electronic body music, Industrial music, noise, futurepop, alternative rock, goth rock, and intelligent dance music to create the proper "feel". Of course, while written works may not come with associated soundtracks as frequently as movies do, allusions to musical works are used for the same effect. For example, the graphic novel ''Kling Klang Klatch'' (1992), a dark fantasy about a world of living toys, features a hard-bitten teddy bear detective with a sugar habit and a predilection for jazz. "Cyberpunk music" also describes the works associated with the fashion trend which emerged from the SF developments. The Jargon File observes that :Since 1990 or so, popular culture has included a movement or fashion trend that calls itself �cyberpunk', associated especially with the rave/techno subculture. Hackers have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, self-described cyberpunks too often seem to be shallow trendoids in black leather who have substituted enthusiastic blathering about technology for actually learning and doing it. Attitude is no substitute for competence. On the other hand, at least cyberpunks are excited about the right things and properly respectful of hacking talent in those who have it. The general consensus is to tolerate them politely in hopes that they'll attract people who grow into being true hackers. [http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/C/cyberpunk.html] ===Bands=== *UV (band): Plays new-styled EBM music with songs discussing technology. They were featured in the DVD box set of ''The Matrix.'' *KMFDM: Plays guitar industrial and were featured on the soundtrack to ''Johnny Mnemonic.'' *Velvet Acid Christ: Plays in the style of aggro-industrial. *Gridlock (band): Plays "noize" music. *VNV Nation: Plays futurepop. *Future Sound of London: Produced and created albums ''ISDN'' and ''Dead Cities'', both composed with varying degrees of cyberpunk themes and influences. *Vennaskond: Estonian cyberpunk, particularly their albums ''Warszawianka'' and ''V�luri Tagasitulek.'' *Gorillaz: Anime-style animated band living in a very cyberpunk world. Their video for Feel Good Inc is a particularly good example. *Chemlab: Electro/Rock/Coldwave/Industrial with cyberpunk lyrical content. *Haujobb: EBM/Industrial with cyberpunk themes and lyrical content. This German band's name is derived from the term "skinjob" from Bladerunner. ==Cyberpunk games== [[image:Cyberpunk2020.jpg|thumb|''Cyberpunk 2020 Second Edition'']] Computer games have frequently used cyberpunk as sources of inspiration. The most prevalent of these are the ''System Shock'' series, the ''Deus Ex'' series, ''Shadowrun'', and the ''Blade Runner (videogame)'' video games. A recent notable cyberpunk computer game is ''Uplink (computer game),'' created by Introversion Software in 2002, in which the player works as a freelance hacker in 2010. At least two role-playing games called ''Cyberpunk'' exist: ''Cyberpunk 2020,'' by R. Talsorian Games, and ''GURPS Cyberpunk,'' published by Steve Jackson Games as a module of the GURPS family of role-playing games. ''Cyberpunk 2020'' was designed with the settings of William Gibson's writings in mind, and to some extent with his approval, unlike the perhaps more creative approach taken by FASA in producing the ''Shadowrun'' game (see below). Both games are set in the near future, in a world where cyberware and computers are even more present than today. ''Netrunner'' is a collectible card game introduced in 1996, based on the ''Cyberpunk 2020'' role-playing game. Another cyberpunk role-playing game of note is the (out of print) game ''Cyberspace_(game)'', released by [http://www.ironcrown.com/ Iron Crown] Enterprises. 2004 brought the publication of a number of new cyberpunk role-playing games, chief among which was ''Ex Machina,'' a more cinematic game including four complete settings and a focus on updating the gaming side of the genre to current themes among cyberpunk fiction. These tropes include a stronger political angle, conveying the alienation of the genre, and even incorporating some transhuman themes. Recently, the D20 System has brought several new entries into the arena, including Mongoose's ''d20 Cyberpunk'' and LRG's ''Digital Burn.'' In 1990, in an odd re-convergence of cyberpunk art and reality, the United states secret service raided Steve Jackson Games's headquarters during Operation Sundevil and confiscated all their computers. This was—allegedly—because the GURPS Cyberpunk sourcebook could be used to perpetrate computer crime. That was, in fact, not the main reason for the raid, but after the event it was too late to correct the public's impression. Steve Jackson Games later won a lawsuit against the Secret Service, aided by the freshly minted Electronic Frontier Foundation. This event has achieved a sort of notoriety and given some to the book itself, as well. The tagline "The only RPG manual ever confiscated by the FBI!" has been used online as a sort of anti-endorsement. (See the GURPS Cyberpunk page.) [[image:shadowrun3.jpg|thumb|left|''Shadowrun Third Edition'']] Role-playing games have also produced one of the more unique takes on the genre in the form of the 1989 game series ''Shadowrun''. Here, the setting is still that of the dystopic near future; however, it also incorporates heavy elements of fantasy literature and games, such as magic, spirits, elves, and dragons. ''Shadowrun'''s cyberpunk facets were modeled in large part on William Gibson's writings, and the game's original publishers, FASA, have been accused by some as having directly ripped off Gibson's work without even a statement of influence. Gibson, meanwhile, has stated his dislike of the inclusion of elements of high fantasy within setting elements that he helped pioneer. Nevertheless, ''Shadowrun'' has introduced many to the genre, and still remains popular among gamers. The trans-genre RPG ''Torg'' (published by West End Games) also included a variant cyberpunk setting (or "cosm") called the ''Cyberpapacy''. This setting was originally a medieval religious dystopia which underwent a sudden ''Tech Surge''. Instead of corporations or corrupt governments, the Cyberpapacy was dominated by the "False Papacy of Avignon". Instead of an Internet, hackers roamed the "GodNet", a computer network rife with overtly religious symbology, home to angels, demons, and other biblical figures. :''For more examples, see the List of cyberpunk works#List of computer and video games.'' ==See also== *Arcology *Biopunk *Corporatocracy *Cyberculture *Cyberprep *Cyberpunk fashion *Cyberpunk music *Cyberware *Cypherpunk *List of -punk genres *Meme *Postcyberpunk *Steampunk *Technocracy ==External links== * [http://18hz.com/cyberpunk.htm ''alt.cyberpunk'' usenet group FAQ file] * The [http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/harrison/Cyberpunk/cyberpunk.html Cyberpunk Reading List] that emerged from the usenet group * [http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/cpunk.htm ''Cyberpunk''] - The original Bruce Bethke story *[http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.04/1.4_cyberpunk_pr.html ''Cyberpunk R.I.P.''] - By Paul Saffo, ''Wired Magazine'' * [http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~tonya/cyberpunk/ English 309K] - Cyberpunk Fiction * [http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Cyberpunk/ ''GURPS Cyberpunk'' website] * [http://www.talsorian.com/cp_cinema_1.shtml/ R. Talsorian series on cyberpunk film] * [http://webmirror.kobran.org/matrixgits/ A ''Matrix'' and ''Ghost in the Shell'' comparison] * [http://www.neometropolis.com/ ''Neometropolis'' Magazine] * Nicola Nixon, [http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/backissues/57/nixon57art.htm "Cyberpunk: Preparing the Ground for Revolution or Keeping the Boys Satisfied?"], ''Science Fiction Studies'' vol. 19, part 2 (July 1992) * [http://project.cyberpunk.ru The Cyberpunk Project] ===Game websites=== * [http://www.guardiansorder.com/games/tristat/ ''Ex Machina'' website] * [http://www.westendgames.com/ West End Games official website] * [http://www.introversion.co.uk/ Introversion Software official website] * [http://www.iconoclast.org/ Iconoclast - award-winning cyberpunk MUD] * [http://salroth.com/forums/ Salroth - online cyberpunk game site] * [http://shadowrun.dnaco.net Shadowrun MUSH Homepage] ===Band websites=== * [http://www.uv-wavelength.com UV official site] * [http://www.kmfdm.net KMFDM official site] * [http://www.velvetacidchrist.com Velvet Acid Christ official site] * [http://www.creative.net/~gridlock/ Gridlock official site] * [http://www.vnvnation.com VNV Nation official site] Cyberpunk Science fiction genres Science fiction themes

Cyberpunk

Science fiction genres

Cyberpunk

The page repeats itself about four times...just thought you should know. ---- How about adding the TV mini-series [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106175/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxteD0yMHxzZz0xfGxtPTIwMHx0dD1vbnxwbj0wfHE9d2lsZCBwYWxtc3xodG1sPTF8bm09b24_;fc=1;ft=6| Wild Palms] to the TV series section? ---- Can we list some cyberpunk films, like a laundry list, as can be found on the Steampunk page? Like: Bladerunnner (1982) The Matrix (1999) Minority Report (2003) ... ... ...? How does this sound to you guys? *Sounds good to me, go for it! User:Premeditated Chaos 02:54, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC) ---- Would Tad Williams' Otherland series be considered Cyberpunk? --User:Mr Bound 21:27, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC) ---- Just noticed Serial Experiments Lain has been added to the list of films - is this correct? The main entry doesn't mention a film, and an IMDB search gives [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0500092/ this entry] - User:Makomk 14:40, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) :Yeah, that doesn't soung good. Also because it's already listed down as a TV show entry. I'll remove it from the list of films. – User:Mackeriv 15:50, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) ---- You people are going to make me see ''I, Robot (movie),'' just to decide whether it's truly cyberpunk or not. (I was waiting until it came out on DivX, see.) As far as the ''book'' is concerned, though, I could make a serious case that it is classic postcyberpunk: the main characters are not alienated loners or betaphenethylamine addicts, the megacorp is not entirely evil, etc. User:Anville 18:37, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC) I have read Asimov's robot histories, and while they are enjoyable and also defining they are not cyberpunk or even post-cyberpunk. Rather Asimov was an exponent for the grander space operas (ref. Foundation Trilogy), one of the subgenres that the Cyberpunk Movement declared dead in their zine Cheap Truth. (As a note, I hated ''I, Robot'' the movie) It has a vague cyberpunk feel to it, with the machines sort of taking over, but I wouldn't list it here as a true cyberpunk film. There's...well, the whole robots thing. Not many CP books *I've* read have robots all over. As well it has more of a nicer view of everything, more utopian than typical cyberpunk dystopia. User:Premeditated Chaos 01:52, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC) Why were the Matrix films removed? Terminator? It does involve a compnay who eneds up taking over the world with it's technology (and then loses control...)User:Gnrlotto Matrix should be in there, they're way cyberpunk. Terminator I've never seen, so I won't argue. And as for I, Robot...I dunno, I just didn't get that overt cyberpunk "feel" from it. User:Premeditated Chaos 00:39, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) The discussion about whether a work is "cyberpunk" or not is way too subjective, and therefore it'll be always full of bias. It's a matter of opinion, folks. You can't say what is and what's not. What we can do is to present the reader a selection of works that ''could'' be seen as cyberpunk. An attempt. That's as much as anyone can do about that part in the article. You want my opinion, though? I haven't seen ''I, Robot'', but I think that it should be listed there, along with the ''Matrix'' and the ''Terminator'' trilogies, which I've seen. Just my opinion. – User:Mackeriv 01:39, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) I edited the article a bit, trying to improve the listings parts. I think it sounds better now. – User:Mackeriv 02:04, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) Members of the original Cyberpunk movement gave various definitions of cyberpunk, two of the more well knmown are "high tech low life" and "bohemia with computers". Under that definition the Matrix could be fitted in. If you widen the scope to what recognised cyberpunk authors have greated you also get the Alien movie that Gibson wrote a script entry for (only very little was in the final movie), The Crow (usually declared a Goth epic with goth author John Shirley as one of the script writers and who is also a cyberpunk author) and Dark City (again with John Shirley writing script and because it was a source of inspiration (even props) for Matrix) *Alien (movie), if you're talking about the famed Alien series, I would outright deny that that's cyberpunk. Cyberpunk generally avoids aliens and close encounters of the ''n''th kind. That's more horror sci-fi...I would call it space opera before cyberpunk. *The Crow? I've seen it. Not a chance in hell is that cyberpunk. It's goth to the core, and not very *good* goth either. Again, the overt supernatural element and the lack of technology (The Crow: Hacking The Net does not seem like a likely sequel) bar it from cyberpunk. *Dark City I have never seen, and so I will leave that one alone. P\">User:Premeditated_ChaosM\">User_talk:Premeditated_ChaosC\">Special:Contributions/Premeditated_Chaos">User:Premeditated Chaos|P\">User:Premeditated ChaosM\">User_talk:Premeditated ChaosC\">Special:Contributions/Premeditated Chaos 23:51, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) OK, back again, sorry to be so slow in following up our discussion. First off, I do believe Alien is cyberpunk. The operations is under the control of Weyland Yutani, a powerful multinational that deals in high tech weapon system and seem to be above or at least consider themselves above the law. Sure it is horror but why not? The Cyberpunk Movement wanted to change and refresh the genre so there is no need to pideonhole as either horror or cyberpunk. To me it is both. The fact that William Gibson wrote a script to the third movie is an added bonus. As for The Crow I can agree it is not cyberpunk; I offered it as an example where the stance "cyberpunk is what cyberpunk authors create" does not always hold water. Here, it seems, we can agree. Dark City is I believe cyberpunk. rather than starting yet another reedit war I hope to build some consensus in here before adding it to the article itself. Most important of all is that cyberpunk is not formulaic. In fact aliens of sorts is hinted as in Gibson's Hinterlands. John Shirley has a major horror streak. Vernor Vinge has hints of space opera grandeur and scale. Freejack has no network hacking nor cyberspace. Examples and counterexamples are numerous. *shrug* This isn't going to get anywhere with just our opinions. Dark City I've never seen, and I won't argue about it. I'll leave that to people who have seen it. Although, having seen it cited multiple times as inspiration for The Matrix, I'd be inclined to include it in the article. The Crow we've agreed against, so that's settled. Now, Alien (movie) (and possibly all sequels?)...it seems to be listed on Project Cyberpunk [http://project.cyberpunk.ru/idb/movies.html]. And [http://www.aboutfilm.com/movies/a/alien.htm] declares that it has inklings of cyberpunk. And finally, [http://www-personal.umd.umich.edu/~nhughes/cyber/cyberpunkfaq.html] the Alt.Cyberpunk FAQ itself says that Alien was at least marginally cyberpunk. Right then, I give. But could we include a note with it that says "marginally" or "disputed" or something? P\">User:Premeditated_ChaosM\">User_talk:Premeditated_ChaosC\">Special:Contributions/Premeditated_Chaos">User:Premeditated Chaos|P\">User:Premeditated ChaosM\">User_talk:Premeditated ChaosC\">Special:Contributions/Premeditated Chaos 22:52, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC) What's up with the shrugging? And obviously opinions are not suffficient, were you to look closer you would notice I do make a case for what I believe, relating to stylistic things (Japanese elements/companies), contents (powerful multinational companies above the law) and more. Furthermore I point out the fuzzy areas of cyberpunk. Please read a little closer, I am not just rambling drunkedly along the Wikipedia. I have followed news:alt.cyberpunk for a couple of years, rescanned articles on the topic of cyberpunk movies and it seems clear that while some movies are agreed to be cyberpunk (like Blade Runner), others are not (including the Matrix trilogy). Nevertheless the lists are long. To keep this article managable in size, not dominated in length by this list item and also potential edit wars, I am proposing to make a new Wikipedia article on cyberpunk media * movies, TV series (such as Max Headroom), anime, manga (possibly Lain) * sorted by date * for each entry argue why it is cyberpunk, determined on at least one of ** content ** style Agreed? Absolutely. That's a great idea. Cyberpunk in media perhaps, or straight Cyberpunk media. Although I think we should also include arguments against each entry, for balance. Also, when you make the article, I'd consider putting a note on the talk page saying that entries should include a reasonable argument for being cyberpunk or they risk being removed. Just so that we don't have little sci-fi kiddies haphazardly adding anything with a corporation or an anti-hero in it. I definitely think a separate article would be great though. P\">User:Premeditated_ChaosM\">User_talk:Premeditated_ChaosC\">Special:Contributions/Premeditated_Chaos">User:Premeditated Chaos|P\">User:Premeditated ChaosM\">User_talk:Premeditated ChaosC\">Special:Contributions/Premeditated Chaos 04:52, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC) == John Varley == Maybe the story "Press ENTER" by John Varley should be added. == Book list overhaul == The list of cyberpunk books is going to get long, if all of them are listed. Perhaps it would be better to list cyberpunk authors and specific books by particular authors if the rest of their works don't fit the genre. Another option might include pushing the book (and movie and tv) lists onto a new page(cyberpunk media, or somesuch). User:Steven.karas 17:38, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC) Until said cyberpunk media entry gets created, why not start posting the book list here, now? Might as well start providing book names to feed a new entry, if ever one gets created. I must say, however, that having it all in one entry (as it is currently) makes for a richer experience + wealth of knowledge in one place. - User:Zenorbital 06:52, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) == cyberpunk and anime == Cyberpunk took from the ideas of anime? I think it's the other way around. Ninjas, samurais and cyborgs can certainly come from other sources than just anime. While several anime films and TV shows and even manga & comics vividly & greatly illustrate cyberpunk themes and visual styles, I have yet to find an example of it being a source for cyberpunk authors (especially prior to 1984). An example would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise, the 1st and 5th paragraphs of the Style section need to be altered. Comments? - User:Zenorbital 08:05, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) :Well, prior to the late 80's, various anime and manga productions were in no doubt influenced by the various cyberpunk literary works and films that existed. After the works of Masamune Shirow and his contemporaries were exported outside of Japan, it became a give and take between the various mediums. However, for material existing before 1990, you are correct. --User:Paul Soth 16:52, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) :''give and take'', I like that. User:Zenorbital 20:57, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) ::Consider that cyborgs and various cyberpunk themes have been appearing in anime since the early 1960s, such as the classic 8-Man, from 1963. 8-Man is one of the original animes, about a human-turned-cyborg after being mortally wounded. In classic cyberpunk style, he takes up an endless fight against the people of the lawless world he lives in. This being about two decades before the term 'cyberpunk' was coined for this sort of thing. Also consider some of the obvious Japanese influence on the works of cyberpunk authors (apart from simply including ninja), such as in Idoru (The Japanese-Engrish of "Idol.") Seems fair to me to say that anime and cyberpunk have both influenced each other pretty heavily, for as long as each have been around. ::--User:Kasha.re 22:45, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::Thanks for pointing out 8-Man. It's very interesting to find instances of cyborgs from as far back as 1963. The term cyborg was coined in 1960 by 2 Americans, with an eye towards space-travel. But in terms of cyberpunk I must ask: Did this influence the birth of cyberpunk? My original aim with this question was to determine how much of an influence anime had at the ''start'' of this cyberpunk period (1984 and before). Idoru came out in 1996, well after the give and take between anime and cyberpunk began in the late-80s, so that part is true. I must note that "an endless fight against the... lawless" is not a cyberpunk theme, it is quite the opposite. ::The flow of Japanese pop-culture to the U.S. during the 1960s-70s was a slow drip compared to the fire hose we have now. It is highly doubtful that 8-Man was viewed by any of the handful of writers who ''started'' this subgenre. According to interviews of some key players here (notably Gibson and Sterling) they make little or no reference to anime as references. As far as Chiba City goes in Neuromancer, the name was obtained from a calendar that Gibson had. He had no knowledge of Japan proper and never researched it. In fact, it was blind luck that it was a city by the bay as he described it in the book, since he made up that detail as he was writing. Gibson did meet a lot of Japanese students in Vancouver when he was writing, however. ::As far as cyborgs go, one could point out The Six Million Dollar Man, or any of a host of comic book characters as more ready influences to the average American growing up in the 1960s-70s. It can be argued that a cyborg and his abilities is nothing more than Iron Man, but with the suit on the inside. We must be very careful not to get too overzealous in associating some art forms we really like to others we love, just to associate the two (even though it's fun). Sure, the bionic man is a cyborg, but we don't classify him as a cyberpunk, do we? ::Aside from all that, this brings up a very interesting point. This article lacks any real Themes or Influences sections. There are bits and pieces lying around, but they need to be coalesced. 8-Man, in this sense, might be a "precursor". After a Themes section is in place, maybe another dialogue will start to debate whether a particular book/film/manga/etc is cyberpunk or not. That'll be a long one... User:Zenorbital 23:13, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) :::That sounds like a good idea.. and while I realism that "fighting lawlessness" isn't exactly a cyberpunk theme, usually dealing more in fighting large corporations which have become the law instead.. I'd still argue 8-Man to be cyberpunk, because of the gritty, film noir approach. Surely The Six Million dollar man wouldn't count as a cuberpunk, because it didn't have the 'darker', dystopian themes involved. 8-Man does. :::--User:Kasha.re 23:21, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Reorganization == I have moved the lists of cyberpunk works to a new page, called List of cyberpunk works. (I spent a long time thinking up that name, I'll have you know.) This is on the theory that right now, the main article needs coherent sections on Themes, History and so forth more than it needs a catalog of "all the works various random people think are cyberpunk". I believe that having our definitions set out in a clear and comprehensible way will make the debates over including particular works much easier to resolve. I have also merged the "Further developments" material into the "History" section, for reasons which should be apparent enough. It's a long way from FA status, people, but such an achievement is not impossible. User:Anville 18:05, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Beware increasingly broad scope == Recent edit included Grand Theft Auto II as a "cyberpunk videogame." Not a chance. This article should really focus on Cyberpunk as a genre instead of trying to include everything with even the slightest bit of Cyberpunk flavor. -User:Bryant.cutler 15:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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