Hi Roger (and others) I'm slightly bothered about County Durham (the article here, not the place!): * Do we usually list sea as bordering areas? I thought maybe not, but I'd be happy to discuss it. * It can't border onto Cleveland, because Cleveland doesn't exist any more as an administrative area. It may border onto Redcar and Cleveland but that's a different thing, plus I guess it ''must'' border onto Middlesbrough and maybe other authorities round there. This whole counties and areas thing is getting me down, I seem to be too old to be able to keep a grip on what is where and what it's called! All responses read with interest ... User:Nevilley 19:49 Dec 21, 2002 (UTC) I'm a newby to this, so please excuse any early mistakes. Here's my comments: * I'm happy to go with the flow (intentional pun) re the sea bordering County Durham. I put it there for completeness sake, maybe it deserves a mention but not in the same sentence as the list of neighbouring administrative areas. * Tyne and Wear no longer exists as an administrative area either but it still exists as a County name. County Durham borders the unitary authorities of Sunderland and Gateshead in Tyne and Wear, and Stockton, Billingham and Hartlepool in Cleveland. I don't think it borders any others. * There's also Darlington which until a couple of years ago was part of the County of Durham administratively until it was hived off into a unitary authority. * Until 1974 County Durham was broadly the area between the Tees in the south and the Tyne and Derwent in the North, out to the centre of the Pennines. The local government reoganisation in that year carved out Cleveland and Tyne and Wear but added the Startforth Rural District from what had been the North Riding of Yorkshire. I think this information could well be added to the article. * I'm no great cricket fan but I believe that Durham County Cricket Club covers the historical area of County Durham, so the historical extent does still have some relevance today. Thanks for your comments, Nevilley ... User:Roger Cornwell ---- Aaaargh! I've had a go at it but it's still a mess. I think we probably need a general, broad Wiki policy on how to "do" counties as there are nowadays so many ways to interpret it. ho hum ... User:Nevilley 10:51 Dec 22, 2002 (UTC) -------- I've added a lot more information and clarifications, the only thing I removed was the reference to Lancashire being a bordering county, since it isn't, the south-west corner of County Durham is 20 miles from the north-east corner of Lancashire. I hope you see this as an improvement. In my view it still needs a lot on history and geography and industry and transport, but I would have to go to copyrighted sources for these, I think. User:Roger Cornwell 19:13 Dec 22 2002 (UTC) :Your edits looks good, Roger. As for "copyrighted sources" - you can, of course, use copyrighted sources to get information, so long as you rephrase the way that information is preseted before putting it in the article here. Mere facts are not copyrightable, only the way those facts are presented. Welcome to the Wikipedia, by the way! --User:Camembert ---- I hope people don't mind that I moved this - it was the only English county that I could find that had "England" in, and I could not see the reason for its different treatment. I will endeavour to sort out all the links as soon as possible. User:Nevilley 00:25 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC) == Durhamshire == :''The form of the county name is unique in England. Many counties are named after their principal town, but the expected form here would be 'Durhamshire'. The reason it is called Durham instead is that the Prince-Bishops of Durham historically exercised power in regions outside the county as well, so the inner part was named County Durham as opposed to the rest of the estate of Durham. (But the form "County X" is standard for Irish counties, with no such significance.)'' Can you clarify this? Does it mean ''County Durham'' was used to distinguish the area of Bishop's temporal power from his ecclesiastical power in the rest of the ''Diocese of Durham'' which went to the Scottish borders until the 19th century. --User:Garryq 18:13, 25 May 2004 (UTC) ==List of places== Steinsky, I am confused about what you are trying to achieve here. I agree in principle with the idea of moving the list of towns and villages onto a seperate page (by the way, I have looked in vain for whatever it was you referred me to on the UK notice board). However, what existed before was a list of every place in the county, ''for which we had an article''. With not many articles this was a reasonable stopgap, and my plan was to look at a map and actually come up with a list of every village, article or not, and then create a seperate page and just summarise on the main County Durham page. What you did, as far as I can tell, was simply duplicate the list on a new page, and then call the one on the County Durham page a list of the main towns only, which it wasn't, and call the new list a list of everything. They were both exactly the same. Can you shed any light on all this? — User:Trilobite User_talk:Trilobite 18:12, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) :(this was noted on the complete to do list, anyway...) :What we're doing with all the UK counties is moving the lists of settlements from the main page to the list of places page, and turning the section on the county article into a summary of the main settlements (see Dorset, Buckinghamshire and Somerset for examples where this has already been completed). I called the list on the main page a list of towns and requested that somebody review it to make sure it was just a list of towns, as I did for a number of county pages at the time (and left it at that, you clearly came and found that nobody had acted on the request). I have since cut it down to towns only by consulting the articles themselves, so this should no longer be a problem. Either way, reverting it back to a list of only the settlements which ''already had articles'' was greatly hindering the progress of the list. User:Steinsky User talk:Steinsky 18:37, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) ::I think you have missed my point. All you did was duplicate the list, my reversion simply made it clear that there are a lot more places in County Durham, and the list only included towns and villages with articles. If you had changed the section into a paragraph of prose and created a full list elsewhere there wouldn't have been a problem. Anyway, forget all that, the main thing now is to create something akin to the Dorset model. Your work on that article was, by contrast, excellent. I am in the process of compiling a proper list of settlements for List of places in County Durham. — User:Trilobite User_talk:Trilobite 18:51, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) :::Yes, but the reason I duplicated the list was to prompt others to start editing the two articles along their divergent paths. I could make some elaborate analogy to gene duplication and molecular evolution creating two very different genes over time, but I won't :) User:Steinsky User talk:Steinsky 18:59, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) == Options for change == I think at least some of this section should stay -- it's relevant and interesting that reorganisation was rejected -- but the lengthy information we have now can definitely be cut down. I've reverted the complete removal for now. How much should we keep? I'd say the maps can certainly go, as they're duplicated at Northern England referendums, 2004, but there should certainly be a link to that page from the main article. --User:Ngb 23:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC) == Status Box == I'm a bit unhappy about "Status: Both ceremonial and administrative, though the latter is smaller". Certainly the Administrative Co has a smaller population, but I wouldn't like to guess whether the bit lost to Tyne and Wear is bigger or smaller in terms of area than the bit gained from the NRY. Anyone got any figures? User:Phlogistomania 14:49, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC) :It's sometimes a real mess trying to sort out the changes that have been made over the years, but I ''think'' I am right in saying that the ceremonial co includes all of the bit gained from the NRY (i.e. what had been the Startforth Rural District). The administrative co differs from the ceremonial co only in that Hartlepool, Darlington and Stockton are all unitary authorities. If I'm right and this is the only difference then the administrative co is definitely smaller than the ceremonial, which does include those three places. This means that that status bit in the table avoids the question of whether the ceremonial county is smaller than the ''traditional'' county. It's not clear from a brief look at the maps whether the Tyne and Wear bit is big enough to cancel out the Durham-ised Yorkshire Dales, but since this article talks mainly about the ceremonial and administrative counties, the infobox says nothing about the area and population of the traditional county (figures would be harder to come by in any case). All this brings us back to the slightly odd compromise Wikipedia has worked out, whereby we talk mainly about the evil 1974 ceremonial counties (with some modifications, such as the abolition of Cleveland, which directly affects this question), which as far as I can see are now pretty irrelevant as of late-90s reorganisations unless you're a Lord Lieutenant. If we did things consistently and talked about the counties as being primarily administrative, and we adhered to this strictly, then the existence of unitary authorities would make us look foolish in following the legal fiction that Derby is not in Derbyshire, etc. Personally I'd much rather we used the traditional counties as our unchanging frame of reference, which would at least make us consistent and immune to further arbitrary changes. There was a report not too long ago that recommended that Cumbria should be abolished and Cumberland and Westmorland restored. If this kind of messing about with the administrative and ceremonial counties continues we will be forever moving and rewording our articles. Anyway, I'm getting rather off topic here.... — User:Trilobite (User_talk:Trilobite) 16:25, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
{| border=1 cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" align="right" width="260" style="margin-left:1em;" |- !colspan=2 align=center bgcolor="#ff9999"|County Durham |- |colspan=2 align=center| |- !colspan=2 bgcolor="#ff9999"|Geography |- |width="45%"|Status:||Both Ceremonial counties of England and Administrative counties of England, though the latter is smaller. |- |Region:||North East England |- |Area:
- Total
- Admin. council
- Admin. area||List of Ceremonial counties of England by Area
2,676 km²
List of Administrative shire counties of England by Area
2,226 km² |- |Admin HQ:||Durham |- |ISO 3166-2:GB:||GB-DUR |- |ONS coding system:||20 |- |Nomenclature of Territorial Units for Statistics 3:||UKC14 |- !colspan=2 bgcolor="#ff9999"|Demographics |- |Population:
- Total (2003 est.)
- Density
- Admin. council
- Admin. pop.||List of Ceremonial counties of England by Population
868,813
319 / km²
List of Administrative shire counties of England by Population
494,159 |- |Ethnicity:||98.6% White |- !colspan=2 bgcolor="#ff9999"|Politics |- |colspan=2 align=center|
Durham County Council
http://www.durham.gov.uk/ |- |Executive:||The Labour Party (UK) |- |colspan=2 align=center|MPs elected in the UK general election, 2005 |- |colspan=2| Hilary Armstrong, Roberta Blackman-Woods, Tony Blair, Frank Cook, John Cummings, Helen Goodman, Kevan Jones, Alan Milburn, Dari Taylor, Iain Wright |- !colspan=2 bgcolor="#ff9999"|Districts |- |colspan=2|
# Hartlepool # Stockton-on-Tees # Darlington # Durham County Council |align="left" valign="top"|
# Hartlepool # Stockton-on-Tees (borough) # Darlington # South Durham
(Sedgefield (borough), Teesdale and Wear Valley) # North Durham
(Chester-le-Street (district) and Derwentside) # East Durham
(City of Durham and Easington (district)) |} ==Settlements== ''For a complete list of settlements see list of places in County Durham.'' This is an list of the main towns in County Durham. The area covered is the entire ceremonial county, hence the inclusion of towns which are no longer administered by Durham County Council. * Barnard Castle, Billingham, Bishop Auckland * Chester-le-Street, Consett * Darlington, Durham * Eaglescliffe, Easington, County Durham * Ferryhill * Hartlepool * Newton Aycliffe * Peterlee * Seaham, Sedgefield, Spennymoor, Stanley, County Durham, Stockton-on-Tees * Willington, County Durham ==Places of interest==
* Auckland Castle, Bishop Auckland
* Barnard Castle
* Beamish museum in Stanley
* Bowes Museum in Barnard Castle
* Durham Cathedral and Durham Castle, a World Heritage Site
* Escomb Church, near Bishop Auckland
* Finchale Priory, near Durham
* High Force and Low Force waterfalls on the River Tees
* Raby Castle, near Staindrop
* Tanfield Railway in Tanfield
==External links==
*[http://www.durham.gov.uk Durham County Council]
*[http://www.britishcounties.info/durham/ Information on County Durham]
County Durham
This category contains articles relating to County Durham. Counties of England
See other meanings of words starting from letter:
Words begining with County_Durham:
County_Durham
County_Durham
County_Durham
County_Durham,_England
County_Durham,_England
County_Durham/to_do
County_Durham_(administrative)
County_Durham_(administrative)
County_Durham_(traditional)
County_Durham_(traditional)
County Durham
Hi Roger (and others) I'm slightly bothered about County Durham (the article here, not the place!): * Do we usually list sea as bordering areas? I thought maybe not, but I'd be happy to discuss it. * It can't border onto Cleveland, because Cleveland doesn't exist any more as an administrative area. It may border onto Redcar and Cleveland but that's a different thing, plus I guess it ''must'' border onto Middlesbrough and maybe other authorities round there. This whole counties and areas thing is getting me down, I seem to be too old to be able to keep a grip on what is where and what it's called! All responses read with interest ... User:Nevilley 19:49 Dec 21, 2002 (UTC) I'm a newby to this, so please excuse any early mistakes. Here's my comments: * I'm happy to go with the flow (intentional pun) re the sea bordering County Durham. I put it there for completeness sake, maybe it deserves a mention but not in the same sentence as the list of neighbouring administrative areas. * Tyne and Wear no longer exists as an administrative area either but it still exists as a County name. County Durham borders the unitary authorities of Sunderland and Gateshead in Tyne and Wear, and Stockton, Billingham and Hartlepool in Cleveland. I don't think it borders any others. * There's also Darlington which until a couple of years ago was part of the County of Durham administratively until it was hived off into a unitary authority. * Until 1974 County Durham was broadly the area between the Tees in the south and the Tyne and Derwent in the North, out to the centre of the Pennines. The local government reoganisation in that year carved out Cleveland and Tyne and Wear but added the Startforth Rural District from what had been the North Riding of Yorkshire. I think this information could well be added to the article. * I'm no great cricket fan but I believe that Durham County Cricket Club covers the historical area of County Durham, so the historical extent does still have some relevance today. Thanks for your comments, Nevilley ... User:Roger Cornwell ---- Aaaargh! I've had a go at it but it's still a mess. I think we probably need a general, broad Wiki policy on how to "do" counties as there are nowadays so many ways to interpret it. ho hum ... User:Nevilley 10:51 Dec 22, 2002 (UTC) -------- I've added a lot more information and clarifications, the only thing I removed was the reference to Lancashire being a bordering county, since it isn't, the south-west corner of County Durham is 20 miles from the north-east corner of Lancashire. I hope you see this as an improvement. In my view it still needs a lot on history and geography and industry and transport, but I would have to go to copyrighted sources for these, I think. User:Roger Cornwell 19:13 Dec 22 2002 (UTC) :Your edits looks good, Roger. As for "copyrighted sources" - you can, of course, use copyrighted sources to get information, so long as you rephrase the way that information is preseted before putting it in the article here. Mere facts are not copyrightable, only the way those facts are presented. Welcome to the Wikipedia, by the way! --User:Camembert ---- I hope people don't mind that I moved this - it was the only English county that I could find that had "England" in, and I could not see the reason for its different treatment. I will endeavour to sort out all the links as soon as possible. User:Nevilley 00:25 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC) == Durhamshire == :''The form of the county name is unique in England. Many counties are named after their principal town, but the expected form here would be 'Durhamshire'. The reason it is called Durham instead is that the Prince-Bishops of Durham historically exercised power in regions outside the county as well, so the inner part was named County Durham as opposed to the rest of the estate of Durham. (But the form "County X" is standard for Irish counties, with no such significance.)'' Can you clarify this? Does it mean ''County Durham'' was used to distinguish the area of Bishop's temporal power from his ecclesiastical power in the rest of the ''Diocese of Durham'' which went to the Scottish borders until the 19th century. --User:Garryq 18:13, 25 May 2004 (UTC) ==List of places== Steinsky, I am confused about what you are trying to achieve here. I agree in principle with the idea of moving the list of towns and villages onto a seperate page (by the way, I have looked in vain for whatever it was you referred me to on the UK notice board). However, what existed before was a list of every place in the county, ''for which we had an article''. With not many articles this was a reasonable stopgap, and my plan was to look at a map and actually come up with a list of every village, article or not, and then create a seperate page and just summarise on the main County Durham page. What you did, as far as I can tell, was simply duplicate the list on a new page, and then call the one on the County Durham page a list of the main towns only, which it wasn't, and call the new list a list of everything. They were both exactly the same. Can you shed any light on all this? — User:Trilobite User_talk:Trilobite 18:12, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) :(this was noted on the complete to do list, anyway...) :What we're doing with all the UK counties is moving the lists of settlements from the main page to the list of places page, and turning the section on the county article into a summary of the main settlements (see Dorset, Buckinghamshire and Somerset for examples where this has already been completed). I called the list on the main page a list of towns and requested that somebody review it to make sure it was just a list of towns, as I did for a number of county pages at the time (and left it at that, you clearly came and found that nobody had acted on the request). I have since cut it down to towns only by consulting the articles themselves, so this should no longer be a problem. Either way, reverting it back to a list of only the settlements which ''already had articles'' was greatly hindering the progress of the list. User:Steinsky User talk:Steinsky 18:37, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) ::I think you have missed my point. All you did was duplicate the list, my reversion simply made it clear that there are a lot more places in County Durham, and the list only included towns and villages with articles. If you had changed the section into a paragraph of prose and created a full list elsewhere there wouldn't have been a problem. Anyway, forget all that, the main thing now is to create something akin to the Dorset model. Your work on that article was, by contrast, excellent. I am in the process of compiling a proper list of settlements for List of places in County Durham. — User:Trilobite User_talk:Trilobite 18:51, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) :::Yes, but the reason I duplicated the list was to prompt others to start editing the two articles along their divergent paths. I could make some elaborate analogy to gene duplication and molecular evolution creating two very different genes over time, but I won't :) User:Steinsky User talk:Steinsky 18:59, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) == Options for change == I think at least some of this section should stay -- it's relevant and interesting that reorganisation was rejected -- but the lengthy information we have now can definitely be cut down. I've reverted the complete removal for now. How much should we keep? I'd say the maps can certainly go, as they're duplicated at Northern England referendums, 2004, but there should certainly be a link to that page from the main article. --User:Ngb 23:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC) == Status Box == I'm a bit unhappy about "Status: Both ceremonial and administrative, though the latter is smaller". Certainly the Administrative Co has a smaller population, but I wouldn't like to guess whether the bit lost to Tyne and Wear is bigger or smaller in terms of area than the bit gained from the NRY. Anyone got any figures? User:Phlogistomania 14:49, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC) :It's sometimes a real mess trying to sort out the changes that have been made over the years, but I ''think'' I am right in saying that the ceremonial co includes all of the bit gained from the NRY (i.e. what had been the Startforth Rural District). The administrative co differs from the ceremonial co only in that Hartlepool, Darlington and Stockton are all unitary authorities. If I'm right and this is the only difference then the administrative co is definitely smaller than the ceremonial, which does include those three places. This means that that status bit in the table avoids the question of whether the ceremonial county is smaller than the ''traditional'' county. It's not clear from a brief look at the maps whether the Tyne and Wear bit is big enough to cancel out the Durham-ised Yorkshire Dales, but since this article talks mainly about the ceremonial and administrative counties, the infobox says nothing about the area and population of the traditional county (figures would be harder to come by in any case). All this brings us back to the slightly odd compromise Wikipedia has worked out, whereby we talk mainly about the evil 1974 ceremonial counties (with some modifications, such as the abolition of Cleveland, which directly affects this question), which as far as I can see are now pretty irrelevant as of late-90s reorganisations unless you're a Lord Lieutenant. If we did things consistently and talked about the counties as being primarily administrative, and we adhered to this strictly, then the existence of unitary authorities would make us look foolish in following the legal fiction that Derby is not in Derbyshire, etc. Personally I'd much rather we used the traditional counties as our unchanging frame of reference, which would at least make us consistent and immune to further arbitrary changes. There was a report not too long ago that recommended that Cumbria should be abolished and Cumberland and Westmorland restored. If this kind of messing about with the administrative and ceremonial counties continues we will be forever moving and rewording our articles. Anyway, I'm getting rather off topic here.... — User:Trilobite (User_talk:Trilobite) 16:25, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
County Durham
{| border=1 cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" align="right" width="260" style="margin-left:1em;" |- !colspan=2 align=center bgcolor="#ff9999"|County Durham |- |colspan=2 align=center| |- !colspan=2 bgcolor="#ff9999"|Geography |- |width="45%"|Status:||Both Ceremonial counties of England and Administrative counties of England, though the latter is smaller. |- |Region:||North East England |- |Area:
- Total
- Admin. council
- Admin. area||List of Ceremonial counties of England by Area
2,676 km²
List of Administrative shire counties of England by Area
2,226 km² |- |Admin HQ:||Durham |- |ISO 3166-2:GB:||GB-DUR |- |ONS coding system:||20 |- |Nomenclature of Territorial Units for Statistics 3:||UKC14 |- !colspan=2 bgcolor="#ff9999"|Demographics |- |Population:
- Total (2003 est.)
- Density
- Admin. council
- Admin. pop.||List of Ceremonial counties of England by Population
868,813
319 / km²
List of Administrative shire counties of England by Population
494,159 |- |Ethnicity:||98.6% White |- !colspan=2 bgcolor="#ff9999"|Politics |- |colspan=2 align=center|
Durham County Council
http://www.durham.gov.uk/ |- |Executive:||The Labour Party (UK) |- |colspan=2 align=center|MPs elected in the UK general election, 2005 |- |colspan=2| Hilary Armstrong, Roberta Blackman-Woods, Tony Blair, Frank Cook, John Cummings, Helen Goodman, Kevan Jones, Alan Milburn, Dari Taylor, Iain Wright |- !colspan=2 bgcolor="#ff9999"|Districts |- |colspan=2|
# Hartlepool # Stockton-on-Tees # Darlington # Durham County Council |align="left" valign="top"|
# Hartlepool # Stockton-on-Tees (borough) # Darlington # South Durham
(Sedgefield (borough), Teesdale and Wear Valley) # North Durham
(Chester-le-Street (district) and Derwentside) # East Durham
(City of Durham and Easington (district)) |} ==Settlements== ''For a complete list of settlements see list of places in County Durham.'' This is an list of the main towns in County Durham. The area covered is the entire ceremonial county, hence the inclusion of towns which are no longer administered by Durham County Council. * Barnard Castle, Billingham, Bishop Auckland * Chester-le-Street, Consett * Darlington, Durham * Eaglescliffe, Easington, County Durham * Ferryhill * Hartlepool * Newton Aycliffe * Peterlee * Seaham, Sedgefield, Spennymoor, Stanley, County Durham, Stockton-on-Tees * Willington, County Durham ==Places of interest==
County Durham
This category contains articles relating to County Durham. Counties of England
See other meanings of words starting from letter:
C
CA | CB | CD | CE | CF | CG | CH | CI | CJ | CK | CL | CM | CN | CO | CP | CR | CS | CT | CU | CW | CX | CY | CZ |Words begining with County_Durham:
County_Durham
County_Durham
County_Durham
County_Durham,_England
County_Durham,_England
County_Durham/to_do
County_Durham_(administrative)
County_Durham_(administrative)
County_Durham_(traditional)
County_Durham_(traditional)
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