
Catalan (''Català'', ''Valencià'') is a Romance languages understood by as many as 12 million people in portions of Spain, France, Andorra and Italy, although the majority of active Catalan speakers are in Spain. ==Classification== Catalan is a Romance languages. According to the Ethnologue, its specific classification is a member of the East Iberian languages branch of the Ibero-Romance languages branch of the Gallo-Iberian languages branch of the Western Italo-Western branch of the Italo-Western languages branch of the Romance languages branch of the Italic languages branch of the Indo-European language famiily. It shares many features with both Spanish language and French language, and is often thought of as a sort of "transitory" language between the Iberian Romance languages and Gallo-Romance languages when comparing the modern descendants of Latin. ==Geographic distribution== Estimates of the number of Catalan speakers vary from four million to twelve million. [http://www.caib.es/conselleries/educacio/dgpoling/user/catalaeuropa/reduides/tripticangles.pdf] (pdf), [http://www.brazilbrazil.com/roman.html], [http://193.2.100.60/SALTMIL/history/review.htm], [http://www.scbwi.org/pubs/bulletin/bull_archives/jan_feb_2003/intl_news.htm], [http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=CLN]. Catalan is spoken in: *Catalonia in Spain. *An adjacent strip of Aragon, Spain, in particular the ''comarques'' of Baixa Ribagorça, Llitera, Baix Cinca, and Matarranya, . *Balearic Islands in Spain. *Andorra. *Part of Valencia in Spain, where the language is officially named Valencian dialect. *Roussillon in France. *The Sardinian city of Alghero (''l'Alguer''). *A small region in Murcia (autonomous community), known as ''el Carxe''. All these areas are informally called Catalan countries (Catalan ''Països Catalans''), a denomination based originally on cultural affinity and common heritage, that some have subsequently interpreted politically. ===Official status=== Catalan is the official language of Andorra. It is co-official in the Spanish regions of Catalonia, the Balearic Islands, and Valencia, and in the Sardinian city of Alghero, in Italy. It has no official status in the parts of Aragon where it is spoken, but has gained some recognition by Aragonese laws since 1990. It has no official status in the other places where it is spoken. === Number of Catalan speakers === ==== Territories where Catalan is official ==== {| style="margin: 0 0 0.5em 1.4em; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse; float: center;" border=1 |- style="font-size:110%; color: black; background-color: lawngreen;" |Region |Understands |Can speak |- style="background-color:#CCCCCC;" |Catalonia (Spain) | align="right" |5.837.874 | align="right" |4.602.611 |- style="background-color:#E4E4E4;" |Land of Valencia (Spain) | align="right" |3.512.236 | align="right" |1.972.922 |- style="background-color:#CCCCCC;" |Balearic Islands (Spain) | align="right" |733.466 | align="right" |504.349 |- style="background-color:#E4E4E4;" |Andorra | align="right" |62.381 | align="right" |49.519 |- style="background-color:#FFFFFF;" |TOTAL | align="right" |10.145.957 | align="right" |7.129.401 |} ==== Other territories ==== {| style="margin: 0 0 0.5em 1.4em; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse; float: center;" border=1 |- style="font-size:110%; color: black; background-color: lawngreen;" |Region |Understands |Can speak |- style="background-color:#CCCCCC;" |Alghero (Sardinia, Italy) | align="right" |20.000 | align="right" |17.625 |- style="background-color:#E4E4E4;" |Roussillon (France) | align="right" |203.121 | align="right" |125.622 |- style="background-color:#CCCCCC;" |Franja de Ponent (Spain) | align="right" |47.250 | align="right" |45.000 |- style="background-color:#E4E4E4;" |Carxe (Murcia, Spain) | align="right" |No data | align="right" |No data |- style="background-color:#CCCCCC;" |Rest of World | align="right" |No data | align="right" |350.000 |- style="background-color:#FFFFFF;" |TOTAL | align="right" |270.371 | align="right" |538.247 |} ==== World ==== {| style="margin: 0 0 0.5em 1.4em; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse; float: center;" border=1 |- style="font-size:110%; color: black; background-color: lawngreen;" |Region |Understands |Can speak |- style="background-color:#CCCCCC;" |Catalan Countries (Europe) | align="right" |10.416.328 | align="right" |7.317.648 |- style="background-color:#E4E4E4;" |Rest of World | align="right" |No data | align="right" |350.000 |- |TOTAL | align="right" |10.416.328 | align="right" |7.667.648 |} ''Notes:'' The number of persons that understand Catalan is included whose can speak it. ''Sources:'' Catalonia: Statistic data of 2001 census, from ''Institut d'Estadística de Catalunya, Generalitat catalana'' [http://www.idescat.net/territ/BasicTerr?TC=5&V0=3&V1=3&V3=876&V4=17&ALLINFO=TRUE&PARENT=1&CTX=B]. Land of Valencia: Statistical data from 2001 census, from ''Institut Valencià d'Estadística, Generalitat Valenciana'' [http://ive.infocentre.gva.es/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/IVE_PEGV/CONTENTS/cvcifras/2004/val/cvx2004_02.pdf]. Balearic Islands: Statistical data from 2001 census, from ''Institut Balear d'Estadística, Govern de les Illes Balears'' [http://www.caib.es/ibae/demo/catala/t2.htm]. Northern Catalonia: ''Media Pluriel'' Survey commissioned by Prefecture of Languedoc-Roussillon Region done in October 1997 and published in January 1998 [http://www.linmiter.net/information_catalan.html]. Andorra: Sociolinguistic data from Andorran Government, 1999 [http://www.catala.ad/CatalaAnd/DadSocLin.htm]. Aragon: Sociolinguistic data from Euromosaic [http://www.uoc.edu/euromosaic/web/document/catala/an/e19/e19.html]. Alguer: Sociolinguistic data from Euromosaic [http://www.uoc.edu/euromosaic/web/homect/index2.html]. Rest of World: Estimate for 1999 by the ''Federació d'Entitats Catalanes'' outside the Catalan Countries. ==Dialects== In 1861, Manuel Milà i Fontanals proposed a dialectal division of Catalan in two major blocks: Eastern Catalan and Western Catalan. There is no precise linguistic border between one dialect and another because there is nearly always a dialect transition zone of some size between pairs of geographically identified dialects, (except for dialects specific to an island). In addition, each dialect isn't completely homogenous: any dialect can be subdivided into several subdialects. Catalan can be subdivided in two major dialectal blocks and those blocks into individual dialects: {| border=0 cellspacing=10 cellpadding=10 | width="50%" valign=top bgcolor="#E7E7FF" | Western Catalan * ''North-Western Catalan'' ** ''Ribagorçà'' (from Ribagorça, a region of Catalonia) ** ''Pallarès'' (from Pallars) ** ''Tortosí'' (from Tortosa) ** ''Lleidatà'' (from Lleida province) * ''Valencian'' ** Northern valencian ** ''Apitxat'', or Central Valencian ** Southern Valencian ** Majorcan from Tàrbena and la Vall de Gallinera Valencian municipalities | width="50%" valign=top bgcolor="#E7E7FF" | Eastern Catalan * ''Northern Catalan, or ''rossellonès'', from Roussillon.'' * ''Central Catalan'' ** ''Salat'' from the Costa Brava* ** ''Barcelonès'' ** ''Tarragonès'' ** ''Xipella'' * ''Balearic'' ** ''Mallorquí'' ** ''Menorquí'' ** ''Eivissenc'' from Ibiza (Catalan: ''Eivissa'') * ''Alguerès'', from the Italian city of Alghero (Catalan: ''Alguer'') |} See Catalan dialect examples for examples of each dialect. == The status of Valencian == The issue, as with Serbian language and Croatian language, of whether Catalan and Valencian constitute different languages or merely dialects has been the subject of political agitation several times after the Franco era. The latest political controversy regarding Valencian occurred on the occasion of the approval of the European Constitution in 2004. The Spanish government supplied the EU with translations of the text into Basque, Catalan, Galician, and Valencian, but the Catalan and Valencian versions were identical. While professing the unity of the Catalan language, the Spanish government claimed to be constitutionally bound to produce distinct Catalan and Valencian versions because the Statute of the Autonomous Community of Valencia calls the regional language "Valencian", while that of Catalonia calls its regional language "Catalan". Most current (21st century) Valencian speakers and writers use spelling conventions (Normes de Castelló, 1932) that allow for several diverse idiosyncrasies of Valencian, Balearic, North-Western Catalan, and Eastern Catalan. All universities teaching Romance languages, and virtually all linguists, consider these all to be linguistic variants of the same language (similarly to Canadian French vs. Metropolitan French). The criterion used by most linguists to decide whether two language varieties are a separate language is the criterion of mutual intelligibility; by this criterion Valencian and other varieties of Catalan are dialects of the same language. Consider also the web sites of the Valencian universities: ''Universitat Jaume I de Castelló'' or ''Universitat de València''. Nevertheless, differences do exist: the accent of a Valencian is recognisable, there are differences in subjunctive terminations, and there are a large number of words unique to Valencian; but those differences are not any wider than among North-Western Catalan and Eastern Catalan. In fact, Northern Valencian (spoken in the Castelló province and Matarranya valley, a strip of Aragon) is more similar to the Catalan of the lower Ebro basin (spoken in southern half of Tarragona province and another strip of Aragon) than to ''apitxat'' Valencian (spoken in the area of L'Horta, in the province of Valencia). ==Sounds and writing system== ==Grammar== ==History== Catalan developed by the 9th century from Vulgar Latin on both sides of the eastern part of Pyrenees mountains (counties of Roussillon, Empuries, Besalú, Cerdagne, Urgell, Pallars and Ribagorça). It shares features with Gallo-romance and Ibero-romance, and it could be said to be in its beginnings no more than an eccentric dialect of Occitan language (or of Western Romance). The language was spread to the south by the ''Reconquista'' in several phases: Barcelona and Tarragona, Lleida and Tortosa, the ancient Kingdom of Valencia, and transplanted to the Balearic Islands and l'Alguer (Alghero). Catalan was exported in the 13th century to Balearic Islands and the newly created Valencian Kingdom by the Catalan and Aragonese invaders (note that the area of Catalan language still extends to part of what is now the region of Aragon). During this period, almost all of the Muslim population of the Balearic Islands were expelled, but many Muslim peasants remained in many rural areas of the Valencian Kingdom, as had happened before in the lower Ebro basin (or Catalunya Nova). During the 13th, 14th and 15th centuries the Catalan language was important in the Mediterranean region. Barcelona was the pre-eminent city and port of the so-called Aragonese Empire, a confederation nominally ruled by the King of Aragon (Aragon, Catalonia, Roussillon, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, Sicily, and — later — Sardinia and Naples). All prose writers of this era used the name 'Catalan' for their common language (e.g. the Catalan Ramon Muntaner, the Majorcan Ramon Llull, etc.) The matter is more complicated among the poets, as they wrote in a sort of artificial Occitan in the tradition of the troubadors. Italian resentment of this Catalan dominance appears to have been one of the wellsprings of the so-called "Black Legend". Tirant_lo_Blanc'',_by_Joanot_Martorell">Image:Tirant.jpg|right|thumb|One of the first few pages of ''Tirant lo Blanc'', by Joanot Martorell
During the 15th and 16th centuries the city of Valencia gains pre-eminence in the confederation, due to several factors, including demographic changes and the fact that the royal court moved there. Presumably as a result of this shift in the balance of power within the confederation, in the 15th century the name 'Valencian' starts to be used by writers from Valencia to refer to their language.
In the 16th century the name 'Llemosí' (that is to say, "the Occitan dialect of Limoges") is first documented as being used to refer to this language. This attribution has no philological base, but it is explicable by the complex sociolinguistic frame of Catalan poetry of this era (Catalan versus troubadoresque Occitan). Ausias March himself was not sure what to call the language he was writing in (it is clearly closer to his contemporary Catalan or Valencian than to the archaic Occitan).
Then, during the 16th century, most of the Valencian elites switched languages to Castilian Spanish, as can be seen in the balance of languages of printed books in Valencia city: at the beginning of century Latin and Catalan (or Valencian) were the main languages of the press, but by the end of the century Spanish was the main language of the press. Still, rural areas and urban working classes continued to speak their vernacular language.
During the first half of the 19th century Catalan and Valencian experienced a major revival among urban élites due to the Renaixença, a romanticism cultural movement. The effects of this revival persist to this day.
During the Francisco Franco regime (1939-1975), the use of Catalan was banned, along with other regional languages in Spain such as Basque language and Galician language. Following the death of Franco in 1975 and the restoration of democracy, the ban was lifted and the Catalan language is now used in politics, education and the media, including the newspapers ''Avui'' ('Today'), "El Punt" ('The Point') and ''El Periódico de Catalunya'' (sharing content with its Spanish release and with ''El Periòdic d'Andorra'', printed in Andorra; ''El Periódico de Catalunya'' has Spanish-language and Catalan-language editions, with identical content) and the television channels of ''Televisió de Catalunya'' (TVC): TV3 and Canal 33 as well as a 24 hour news channel 3/24; there are also many local channels available in region in Catalan, such as BTV and CityTV (Barcelona), Canal L'Hospitalet (L'Hospitalet de Llogbregat) and Canal Terrassa (Terrassa).
==Examples==
Some common Catalan phrases:
*Catalan: ''Català''
*hello: ''hola'' ; ''Déu vos guard''
*good-bye: ''adéu'' (sing.); ''adéu siau'' /əˈðɛw siˈaw/ (pl.)
*please: ''si us plau''
*thank you: ''gràcies'' ; ''mercès''
*sorry: ''perdó''
*that one: ''aquest'' (masc.); ''aquesta'' (fem.)
*how much?: ''quant val?'' ; ''quant és?''
*yes: ''sí''
*no: ''no''
*I don't understand: ''No ho entenc''
*where's the bathroom?: ''on és el bany?'' ; ''on és el lavabo?''
*generic toast: ''salut!'' ;
*Do you speak English?: ''Que parla l'anglès?''
*Do you speak Catalan?: ''Que parla el català?''
==Learning Catalan==
* ''Digui, digui... Curs de català per a estrangers''. A catalan Handbook. — Alan Yates and Toni Ibarz. — Generalitat de Catalunya. Departament de Cultura, 1993. -- ISBN 84-393-2579-7.
* ''Teach Yourself Catalan''. — McGraw-Hill, 1993. — ISBN 0844237558.
* ''Colloquial Catalan''. — Toni Ibarz and Alexander Ibarz. — Routledge, 2005. — ISBN 0415234123.
Catalan courses are given at many universities in the EU and USA.
==See also==
* Common phrases in different languages
* Institut d'Estudis Catalans (Catalan Studies Institute)
* Pompeu Fabra
* Catalan literature
* Languages of France
* :Category:Languages of Italy
* :Category:Languages of Spain
* Spanish and Portuguese names
==External links==
* [http://www.iec.es/ Institut d'Estudis Catalans]
* [http://www.avl.gva.es/ Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua]
* [http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=cat Ethnologue report for Catalan]
* [http://catalunya-lliure.com/recursos.html Catalan resources in the Web]
* [http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/Catalan-english/ Catalan–English Dictionary].
* [http://wikitravel.org/en/article/Catalan_phrasebook Wikitravel Catalan phrasebook]
* [http://www.tvcatalunya.com/ ''Televisió de Catalunya'']
* [http://www.avui.com/ Diari ''Avui''] — Catalan-language daily newspaper
* [http://www.elpunt.com/ Diari ''El Punt''] — Catalan-language daily newspaper
* [http://wikibooks.org/wiki/P%C3%A0gina_principal Catalan Wikibooks]
* [http://pdl.iec.es/entrada/diec.asp Diccionari Català de l'IEC]
* [http://dcvb.iecat.net/ Diccionari Català-Valencià-Balear]. In Catalan, published by the Institut d'Estudis Catalans and Editorial Moll.
* [http://www.catalandictionary.org/ DACCO]. Open source English-Catalan / Catalan-English dictionary project.
* [http://www.dilc.org/ Diccionari Invers de la Llengua Catalana]
Catalan language
Languages of France
Languages of Italy
Languages of Spain
kw:Katalanek
la:Lingua Catalana
li:Catalaans
nds:Katalaansch
rm:Lingua catalana
simple:Catalan language
On 00:36 Sep 3, 2002 some anonymous 194.224.86.10 removed these paragraphs with no justification: * on the name of the language ''...(''Català'', ''Valencià'')'' * on the areas where it is spoken ''... Valencia (''País Valencià'', Spain), where it is coofficial with Spanish.'' Now, if you do not like the facts of reality, would you mind to explain AND justify your version to us? ---- Interestingly, you omitted to mention the fact that there is "some" discussion about the relationship between ''Català'' and ''Valencià''. You just make them the same... ...like you also do with Balear and others. Let's not get into the mess of that discussion, but... shouldn't it at least be "hinted" that the discussion EXIST? (because that's a "fact of reality", isn't it?) There are people claiming the Moon is made of green cheese as well. May be you think it worth of being hinted here too. ---- I notice that a recent edit by User:Perique des Palottes takes pretty much all of the content of Valencian (''Valencià'') and brings it into this article as well. I'm not going to start an edit war, but it seems like this must be a revival of the same fight that apparently occurred in September 2002. Can we please try again to reach a consensus on how to handle this? And can we please try to reach that consensus in the talk page rather than by simply reviving an old fight in the article itself without discussion. To that I add that I would hope the discussion will consist of more than random jabs between Catalans and Valencianos. I would really like to see each side weigh in with references to what significant linguists hold what stake in the matter. As I understand it (I'm a presumably neutral party, but this is not a language I even read particularly well, let alone speak), Catalan and Valencian are mutually intelligible dialects, as are the various Balearic dialects. However, in general usage, and for reasons more historical than linguistic (e.g. Barcelona once had a very big navy, which is often the difference between being deemed a langauge and a dialect; that's only partly a joke), the term "Catalan" without qualification usually refers to the language of Barcelona and of Catalonia generally; the other forms are usually deemed to be dialects of Catalan. (I realize that at some level this is an argument like whether Galego is a dialect of Portuguese or ''vice versa'', not ultimately resolvable, but the point is that our arrangement of articles should probably follow the prevailing winds of professional linguists, with commentary explaining how alternate models may have equal objective validity. -- User:Jmabel 08:56, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC) -- A try for NPOV. Catalan was ported in the 13th century to Balearic Islands and the newly created Valencian Kingdom by the Catalan and Aragonese invaders (notice that the area of Catalan language still extends to part of what is now the region of Aragon). Almost all muslim population of the Balearic Islands were expulsed. But, many muslim peasants stayed in many rural areas of the Valencian Kingdom, as it happened before in the lower Ebre basin (or Catalunya Nova). During 13th and 14th centuries Barcelona city was the preeminent city and port of the confederation namelly ruled by the King of Aragon (Aragon, Catalonia, Roussillon, Valencia, Balearic Islands, Sicily and later Sardinia and Naples). All prose writers of this era used the name 'Catalan' for their common language (e.g. the Catalan Ramon Muntaner, the Majorcan Ramon Llull, etc) The thing is more complicated with the poets as they wrote in a sort of artificial langue d'Oc in the tradition of the trovadours. During 15 and 16 centuries the preeminence is taken by Valencia city, due to several factors, demographic changes, the royal court moves there, etc. So, in 15 century the name 'Valencian' starts to be used by Valencian writers to refer to their language. In 16 century the name 'Llemosí' (that is, the occitan dialect of Limoges) is first documented as refering to Catalan. This attribution has no philological base, but it is explicable by the complex sociolinguistic frame of Catalan poetry of this era (Catalan versus trovadouresques Occitan). Ausias March himself was not sure what language he was writing in (it is clearly his contemporary Catalan or Valencian, and not Occitan anymore). And then, during 16th century most of the Valencian elites switched languages to Castilian Spanish, as can be seen in the balance of languages of printed books in Valencia city: by the beginning of century Latin and Catalan (or Valencian if you prefer) are main languages of press, by the end of the century Spanish is main language of press. But rural areas and urban working classes continued to speak their vernacular language up to this day. The issue of a different language or not for Catalan and Valencian has been politically agitated several times by extreme right wing parties in Valencia city area (curiously they have often been Spanish monoglots or not willing to allow any public presence of Valencian language). Most current (21th century) Valencian speakers and writers use a consensus orthographical normative (Normes de Castelló, 1932) that allows for several diverse idiosincrasies of Valencian, Balearic, Nordoccidental Catalan and Oriental Catalan. Any serious linguist and all universities teaching romance languages consider those linguistics variants to be part of the same language (sort of Canadian French vs French of France). The differences do exist, the accent of a Valencian is recognisable, there are differences in subjunctive terminations, and diverse Valencian lexical items. But those differences are not any wider than among Nordoccidental Catalan and Oriental Catalan. In fact, Septentrional Valencian (spoken in Castelló province and Matarranya valley, a strip of Aragon) is more similar to Catalan of the lower Ebre basin (spoken in south half part of the Tarragona province and another strip of Aragon) than to apitxat Valencian (the Horta, Valencia city area). Use:Perique des Palottes ---- I'm going to try to rewrite the above "try for NPOV" native English (not that it was far off), so we can discuss the POV issue separately from any issue of how correct the English is; I've also made some very small further NPOV changes. User:Perique des Palottes, let me know if there is anywhere you think I'm misrepresenting your intent: Catalan was exported in the 13th century to Balearic Islands and the newly created Valencian Kingdom by the Catalan and Aragonese invaders (note that the area of Catalan language still extends to part of what is now the region of Aragon). During this period, almost all of the Moslem population of the Balearic Islands were expelled, but many Moslem peasants remained in many rural areas of the Valencian Kingdom, as had happened before in the lower Ebre basin (or Catalunya Nova). During 13th and 14th centuries Barcelona was the preeminent city and port of the confederation nominally ruled by the King of Aragon (Aragon, Catalonia, Roussillon, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, Sicily, and - later - Sardinia and Naples). All prose writers of this era used the name 'Catalan' for their common language (e.g. the Catalan Ramon Muntaner, the Majorcan Ramon Llull, etc.) The matter is more complicated among the poets, as they wrote in a sort of artificial Languedocien in the tradition of the troubadors. During the 15th and 16th centuries the city of Valencia gains preeminence in the confederation, due to several factors, including demographic changes and the fact that the royal court moved there. Presumably As a result of this shift in the balance of power within the confederation, in the 15th century the name 'Valencian' starts to be used by writers from Valencia to refer to their language. In the 16th century the name 'Llemosí' (that is to say, "the Occitan dialect of Limoges") is first documented as being used to refer to this language. This attribution has no philological base, but it is explicable by the complex sociolinguistic frame of Catalan poetry of this era (Catalan versus troubadoresque Occitan). Ausias March himself was not sure what to call the language he was writing in (it is clearly closer to his contemporary Catalan or Valencian than to the archaic Occitan). Then, during the 16th century, most of the Valencian elites switched languages to Castilian Spanish, as can be seen in the balance of languages of printed books in Valencia city: at the beginning of century Latin and Catalan (or Valencian if you prefer) are main languages of press, but by the end of the century Spanish is main language of press. Still, rural areas and urban working classes have continued to speak their vernacular language up to this day. ''Do we want to add here to that last sentence, "and Catalan and Valencian have undergone a major revival among urban elites in recent generations."?'' The issue of whether Catalan and Valencian constitute different languages or merely dialects has been the subject of political agitation several times ''during what period? Post Franco? or earlier?'' by extreme right wing parties in the area of the city of Valencia. Curiously, the people claiming Valencian as a separate language have often been Spanish monoglots or people unwilling to allow any public presence of the Valencian language. Most current (21st century) Valencian speakers and writers use a consensus orthographical normative (Normes de Castelló, 1932) that allows for several diverse idiosyncrasies of Valencian, Balearic, Nordoccidental Catalan, and Oriental Catalan. All universities teaching Romance languages, and virtually all linguists, consider these all to be linguistic variants of the same language (similarly to Canadian French vs. Metropolitan French). ''We would do well here to quote a very respectable authority holding this opinion, preferably one from Valencia or abroad, rather than from Catalunya.'' Differences do exist, the accent of a Valencian is recognisable, there are differences in subjunctive terminations, and there are diverse Valencian lexical items (word differences), but those differences are not any wider than among Nordoccidental Catalan and Oriental Catalan. In fact, Septentrional Valencian (spoken in the Castelló province and Matarranya valley, a strip of Aragon) is more similar to the Catalan of the lower Ebre basin (spoken in southern half of Tarragona province and another strip of Aragon) than to ''apitxat'' Valencian (spoken in the city of Horta, in the province of Valencia). ''We would do well here to point to the most respectable authority holding a dissenting opinion.'' -- User:Jmabel 22:12, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC) ---- ''Dividing to win'' -- This is what Spain's doing, even a blind person can see that -- spreding confusion among people that knowns less. The only false POV is the political one, that argues that they are different languages. [[user:PedroPVZ|Pedro] from Portugal ---- "...sharing edition with its Spanish release..." doesn't make sense. User:Nosoccomtothom, could you paraphrase this? It's OK if it's easiest for you to paraphrase in Spanish or Catalan, I can presumably translate. -- User:Jmabel 18:39, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC) Hi, what i wanted to mean is that El Periódico de Catalunya has two releases either in Spanish and Catalan. Both of them have the same identical news but translated in one or other language. How do you think this idea is best shown? Regards User:Nosoccomtothom (answer transferred from my talk page -- User:Jmabel 05:05, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)) ---- Hi, I want to know where the translation for the central Catalan come from. Is this very very old Catalan?? I'm Catalan and I understand this text is not correct at all. There's a lot of errors. An actual correct version of the text would be: Un home només tenia dos fills. El més jove va dir al seu pare: "Ja és hora que sigui el meu propi amo i que tingui cèntims; me n'he d'anar a veure món. Partiu la vostra herència i doneu-me el que em toqui". "Ai, fill meu", va dir el pare, "com vulguis; ets un dolent i Déu et castigarà". I després va obrir una capsa i va partir tot el que tenia en dues parts. Al cap d'uns quants dies, el dolent se'n va anar del poble molt tibat i sense dir adéu a ningú. Va travessar molta terra erma, molts boscos i molts rius, i va arribar a una gran ciutat on es va gastar tots els seus cèntims. "Cèntims" is ok but "diners" is more commonly used. Perhaps this translation is an old one when the people didn't have a proper grammar but at least in the sentence "Ja és hora que sigui el meu propi amo i que ..." the "i" conjunction is missing. And, anyway, even if this is archaic Catalan I think it's better to put an actual correct version. I'm also wondering about the translation of the other Catalan dialects!! --User:Rusian04 04:18, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC) :As the article says, these come from Manuel Milà i Fontanals work in 1861. That is presumably the period of the examples (which come from the Catalan-language version of the article, the only thing added here is my translation of the passage into English for the benefit of English-language readers.) Yes, some of these come off as ''very'' archaic. I read Catalan pretty well, but writing it is another matter; no one seems to have seen fit in the Catalan Wikipedia to add modern equivalents; I think that would be worth doing, but I also think it is very vaulable to preserve examples of the older, more extreme, dialects. My own Catalan isn't good enough to be confident in writing that; you are a native speaker. It would be a useful addition, certainly here in the English Wikipedia and probably even in the Catalan Wikipedia. : I would quite disagree with the view behind "didn't have a proper grammar." The fact that the grammar of one time and place differs from another doesn't mean that one of them is wrong. Just like modern Catalan isn't "very bad Latin" (or vice versa), the various 19th-century regional dialects were not unsuccessful attempts to talk like a Barcelones. They were (presumably correct) uses of the dialect of their time and place. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 06:10, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC) ---- "Majorquinian" doesn't appear in Google outside Wikipedia. The English adjectives for the islands are "Majorcan" and "Minorcan". --User:Henrygb 23:23, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC) == Language politics in Valencia == The following was recently and anonymously cut: "...by extreme right wing parties in the area of the city of Valencia. Curiously, the people claiming Valencian as a separate language have often been Spanish monoglots or people unwilling to allow any public presence of Valencian." I believe the cut material to be correct, but probably the sort of thing that should have a citation. I would welcome its restoration, especially with appropriate citation, but I have neither a reference nor first-hand knowledge. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 01:46, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC) The current ruckus is (mostly) between ERC (leftist catalan independentists) and PP (Spanish centralist). Curiously, the Valencian side is mostly advocated by a party which is (to put it mildly) unsympathetic to decentralization and national minorities. I would like to know from someone in Valencia what the position of UV (valencian nationalist) is, because I can´t find that in the Spanish national media. — User:Miguel 12:32, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC) == "Passive" vs "Active" Speakers == The article states that Catalan is spoken by 6.5 million people "actively," and 12 million "passively." I have never for another language heard such a distinction made. Can someone please explain? I would think that a person who understands a language "passively" cannot be considered a speaker of a language. If he cannot speak the language, he is not a speaker of the language. Sounds like some inflation of numbers for political purposes if you ask me. User:Peter Wye January 16th 2005 == Partisan and unencyclopedic edits == User:68.6.123.6 is making massive, partisan, and unencyclopedic edits to this article. However, I am not sure that the ''substance'' of what he/she is saying is entirely incorrect. Therefore, I am not immediately reverting. Someone more expert than I will probably want to look through these edits and determine if any of them are worth keeping, possibly in somewhat modified form. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 20:30, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC) ==Backwards, very backwards== Of what possible use is [http://www.dilc.org/ Diccionari Invers de la Llengua Catalana], recently added to external links, based on spelling Catalan words backwards? Seems like basically a joke. I think it should be removed, but thought I'd bring the question here first. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 22:15, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC) :I dunno... it could be useful to find rhymes when writing poetry. — User:Chameleon 23:11, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Catalonia Romance languages
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Catalan language
Catalan (''Català'', ''Valencià'') is a Romance languages understood by as many as 12 million people in portions of Spain, France, Andorra and Italy, although the majority of active Catalan speakers are in Spain. ==Classification== Catalan is a Romance languages. According to the Ethnologue, its specific classification is a member of the East Iberian languages branch of the Ibero-Romance languages branch of the Gallo-Iberian languages branch of the Western Italo-Western branch of the Italo-Western languages branch of the Romance languages branch of the Italic languages branch of the Indo-European language famiily. It shares many features with both Spanish language and French language, and is often thought of as a sort of "transitory" language between the Iberian Romance languages and Gallo-Romance languages when comparing the modern descendants of Latin. ==Geographic distribution== Estimates of the number of Catalan speakers vary from four million to twelve million. [http://www.caib.es/conselleries/educacio/dgpoling/user/catalaeuropa/reduides/tripticangles.pdf] (pdf), [http://www.brazilbrazil.com/roman.html], [http://193.2.100.60/SALTMIL/history/review.htm], [http://www.scbwi.org/pubs/bulletin/bull_archives/jan_feb_2003/intl_news.htm], [http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=CLN]. Catalan is spoken in: *Catalonia in Spain. *An adjacent strip of Aragon, Spain, in particular the ''comarques'' of Baixa Ribagorça, Llitera, Baix Cinca, and Matarranya, . *Balearic Islands in Spain. *Andorra. *Part of Valencia in Spain, where the language is officially named Valencian dialect. *Roussillon in France. *The Sardinian city of Alghero (''l'Alguer''). *A small region in Murcia (autonomous community), known as ''el Carxe''. All these areas are informally called Catalan countries (Catalan ''Països Catalans''), a denomination based originally on cultural affinity and common heritage, that some have subsequently interpreted politically. ===Official status=== Catalan is the official language of Andorra. It is co-official in the Spanish regions of Catalonia, the Balearic Islands, and Valencia, and in the Sardinian city of Alghero, in Italy. It has no official status in the parts of Aragon where it is spoken, but has gained some recognition by Aragonese laws since 1990. It has no official status in the other places where it is spoken. === Number of Catalan speakers === ==== Territories where Catalan is official ==== {| style="margin: 0 0 0.5em 1.4em; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse; float: center;" border=1 |- style="font-size:110%; color: black; background-color: lawngreen;" |Region |Understands |Can speak |- style="background-color:#CCCCCC;" |Catalonia (Spain) | align="right" |5.837.874 | align="right" |4.602.611 |- style="background-color:#E4E4E4;" |Land of Valencia (Spain) | align="right" |3.512.236 | align="right" |1.972.922 |- style="background-color:#CCCCCC;" |Balearic Islands (Spain) | align="right" |733.466 | align="right" |504.349 |- style="background-color:#E4E4E4;" |Andorra | align="right" |62.381 | align="right" |49.519 |- style="background-color:#FFFFFF;" |TOTAL | align="right" |10.145.957 | align="right" |7.129.401 |} ==== Other territories ==== {| style="margin: 0 0 0.5em 1.4em; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse; float: center;" border=1 |- style="font-size:110%; color: black; background-color: lawngreen;" |Region |Understands |Can speak |- style="background-color:#CCCCCC;" |Alghero (Sardinia, Italy) | align="right" |20.000 | align="right" |17.625 |- style="background-color:#E4E4E4;" |Roussillon (France) | align="right" |203.121 | align="right" |125.622 |- style="background-color:#CCCCCC;" |Franja de Ponent (Spain) | align="right" |47.250 | align="right" |45.000 |- style="background-color:#E4E4E4;" |Carxe (Murcia, Spain) | align="right" |No data | align="right" |No data |- style="background-color:#CCCCCC;" |Rest of World | align="right" |No data | align="right" |350.000 |- style="background-color:#FFFFFF;" |TOTAL | align="right" |270.371 | align="right" |538.247 |} ==== World ==== {| style="margin: 0 0 0.5em 1.4em; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse; float: center;" border=1 |- style="font-size:110%; color: black; background-color: lawngreen;" |Region |Understands |Can speak |- style="background-color:#CCCCCC;" |Catalan Countries (Europe) | align="right" |10.416.328 | align="right" |7.317.648 |- style="background-color:#E4E4E4;" |Rest of World | align="right" |No data | align="right" |350.000 |- |TOTAL | align="right" |10.416.328 | align="right" |7.667.648 |} ''Notes:'' The number of persons that understand Catalan is included whose can speak it. ''Sources:'' Catalonia: Statistic data of 2001 census, from ''Institut d'Estadística de Catalunya, Generalitat catalana'' [http://www.idescat.net/territ/BasicTerr?TC=5&V0=3&V1=3&V3=876&V4=17&ALLINFO=TRUE&PARENT=1&CTX=B]. Land of Valencia: Statistical data from 2001 census, from ''Institut Valencià d'Estadística, Generalitat Valenciana'' [http://ive.infocentre.gva.es/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/IVE_PEGV/CONTENTS/cvcifras/2004/val/cvx2004_02.pdf]. Balearic Islands: Statistical data from 2001 census, from ''Institut Balear d'Estadística, Govern de les Illes Balears'' [http://www.caib.es/ibae/demo/catala/t2.htm]. Northern Catalonia: ''Media Pluriel'' Survey commissioned by Prefecture of Languedoc-Roussillon Region done in October 1997 and published in January 1998 [http://www.linmiter.net/information_catalan.html]. Andorra: Sociolinguistic data from Andorran Government, 1999 [http://www.catala.ad/CatalaAnd/DadSocLin.htm]. Aragon: Sociolinguistic data from Euromosaic [http://www.uoc.edu/euromosaic/web/document/catala/an/e19/e19.html]. Alguer: Sociolinguistic data from Euromosaic [http://www.uoc.edu/euromosaic/web/homect/index2.html]. Rest of World: Estimate for 1999 by the ''Federació d'Entitats Catalanes'' outside the Catalan Countries. ==Dialects== In 1861, Manuel Milà i Fontanals proposed a dialectal division of Catalan in two major blocks: Eastern Catalan and Western Catalan. There is no precise linguistic border between one dialect and another because there is nearly always a dialect transition zone of some size between pairs of geographically identified dialects, (except for dialects specific to an island). In addition, each dialect isn't completely homogenous: any dialect can be subdivided into several subdialects. Catalan can be subdivided in two major dialectal blocks and those blocks into individual dialects: {| border=0 cellspacing=10 cellpadding=10 | width="50%" valign=top bgcolor="#E7E7FF" | Western Catalan * ''North-Western Catalan'' ** ''Ribagorçà'' (from Ribagorça, a region of Catalonia) ** ''Pallarès'' (from Pallars) ** ''Tortosí'' (from Tortosa) ** ''Lleidatà'' (from Lleida province) * ''Valencian'' ** Northern valencian ** ''Apitxat'', or Central Valencian ** Southern Valencian ** Majorcan from Tàrbena and la Vall de Gallinera Valencian municipalities | width="50%" valign=top bgcolor="#E7E7FF" | Eastern Catalan * ''Northern Catalan, or ''rossellonès'', from Roussillon.'' * ''Central Catalan'' ** ''Salat'' from the Costa Brava* ** ''Barcelonès'' ** ''Tarragonès'' ** ''Xipella'' * ''Balearic'' ** ''Mallorquí'' ** ''Menorquí'' ** ''Eivissenc'' from Ibiza (Catalan: ''Eivissa'') * ''Alguerès'', from the Italian city of Alghero (Catalan: ''Alguer'') |} See Catalan dialect examples for examples of each dialect. == The status of Valencian == The issue, as with Serbian language and Croatian language, of whether Catalan and Valencian constitute different languages or merely dialects has been the subject of political agitation several times after the Franco era. The latest political controversy regarding Valencian occurred on the occasion of the approval of the European Constitution in 2004. The Spanish government supplied the EU with translations of the text into Basque, Catalan, Galician, and Valencian, but the Catalan and Valencian versions were identical. While professing the unity of the Catalan language, the Spanish government claimed to be constitutionally bound to produce distinct Catalan and Valencian versions because the Statute of the Autonomous Community of Valencia calls the regional language "Valencian", while that of Catalonia calls its regional language "Catalan". Most current (21st century) Valencian speakers and writers use spelling conventions (Normes de Castelló, 1932) that allow for several diverse idiosyncrasies of Valencian, Balearic, North-Western Catalan, and Eastern Catalan. All universities teaching Romance languages, and virtually all linguists, consider these all to be linguistic variants of the same language (similarly to Canadian French vs. Metropolitan French). The criterion used by most linguists to decide whether two language varieties are a separate language is the criterion of mutual intelligibility; by this criterion Valencian and other varieties of Catalan are dialects of the same language. Consider also the web sites of the Valencian universities: ''Universitat Jaume I de Castelló'' or ''Universitat de València''. Nevertheless, differences do exist: the accent of a Valencian is recognisable, there are differences in subjunctive terminations, and there are a large number of words unique to Valencian; but those differences are not any wider than among North-Western Catalan and Eastern Catalan. In fact, Northern Valencian (spoken in the Castelló province and Matarranya valley, a strip of Aragon) is more similar to the Catalan of the lower Ebro basin (spoken in southern half of Tarragona province and another strip of Aragon) than to ''apitxat'' Valencian (spoken in the area of L'Horta, in the province of Valencia). ==Sounds and writing system== ==Grammar== ==History== Catalan developed by the 9th century from Vulgar Latin on both sides of the eastern part of Pyrenees mountains (counties of Roussillon, Empuries, Besalú, Cerdagne, Urgell, Pallars and Ribagorça). It shares features with Gallo-romance and Ibero-romance, and it could be said to be in its beginnings no more than an eccentric dialect of Occitan language (or of Western Romance). The language was spread to the south by the ''Reconquista'' in several phases: Barcelona and Tarragona, Lleida and Tortosa, the ancient Kingdom of Valencia, and transplanted to the Balearic Islands and l'Alguer (Alghero). Catalan was exported in the 13th century to Balearic Islands and the newly created Valencian Kingdom by the Catalan and Aragonese invaders (note that the area of Catalan language still extends to part of what is now the region of Aragon). During this period, almost all of the Muslim population of the Balearic Islands were expelled, but many Muslim peasants remained in many rural areas of the Valencian Kingdom, as had happened before in the lower Ebro basin (or Catalunya Nova). During the 13th, 14th and 15th centuries the Catalan language was important in the Mediterranean region. Barcelona was the pre-eminent city and port of the so-called Aragonese Empire, a confederation nominally ruled by the King of Aragon (Aragon, Catalonia, Roussillon, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, Sicily, and — later — Sardinia and Naples). All prose writers of this era used the name 'Catalan' for their common language (e.g. the Catalan Ramon Muntaner, the Majorcan Ramon Llull, etc.) The matter is more complicated among the poets, as they wrote in a sort of artificial Occitan in the tradition of the troubadors. Italian resentment of this Catalan dominance appears to have been one of the wellsprings of the so-called "Black Legend". Tirant_lo_Blanc'',_by_
Catalan language
On 00:36 Sep 3, 2002 some anonymous 194.224.86.10 removed these paragraphs with no justification: * on the name of the language ''...(''Català'', ''Valencià'')'' * on the areas where it is spoken ''... Valencia (''País Valencià'', Spain), where it is coofficial with Spanish.'' Now, if you do not like the facts of reality, would you mind to explain AND justify your version to us? ---- Interestingly, you omitted to mention the fact that there is "some" discussion about the relationship between ''Català'' and ''Valencià''. You just make them the same... ...like you also do with Balear and others. Let's not get into the mess of that discussion, but... shouldn't it at least be "hinted" that the discussion EXIST? (because that's a "fact of reality", isn't it?) There are people claiming the Moon is made of green cheese as well. May be you think it worth of being hinted here too. ---- I notice that a recent edit by User:Perique des Palottes takes pretty much all of the content of Valencian (''Valencià'') and brings it into this article as well. I'm not going to start an edit war, but it seems like this must be a revival of the same fight that apparently occurred in September 2002. Can we please try again to reach a consensus on how to handle this? And can we please try to reach that consensus in the talk page rather than by simply reviving an old fight in the article itself without discussion. To that I add that I would hope the discussion will consist of more than random jabs between Catalans and Valencianos. I would really like to see each side weigh in with references to what significant linguists hold what stake in the matter. As I understand it (I'm a presumably neutral party, but this is not a language I even read particularly well, let alone speak), Catalan and Valencian are mutually intelligible dialects, as are the various Balearic dialects. However, in general usage, and for reasons more historical than linguistic (e.g. Barcelona once had a very big navy, which is often the difference between being deemed a langauge and a dialect; that's only partly a joke), the term "Catalan" without qualification usually refers to the language of Barcelona and of Catalonia generally; the other forms are usually deemed to be dialects of Catalan. (I realize that at some level this is an argument like whether Galego is a dialect of Portuguese or ''vice versa'', not ultimately resolvable, but the point is that our arrangement of articles should probably follow the prevailing winds of professional linguists, with commentary explaining how alternate models may have equal objective validity. -- User:Jmabel 08:56, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC) -- A try for NPOV. Catalan was ported in the 13th century to Balearic Islands and the newly created Valencian Kingdom by the Catalan and Aragonese invaders (notice that the area of Catalan language still extends to part of what is now the region of Aragon). Almost all muslim population of the Balearic Islands were expulsed. But, many muslim peasants stayed in many rural areas of the Valencian Kingdom, as it happened before in the lower Ebre basin (or Catalunya Nova). During 13th and 14th centuries Barcelona city was the preeminent city and port of the confederation namelly ruled by the King of Aragon (Aragon, Catalonia, Roussillon, Valencia, Balearic Islands, Sicily and later Sardinia and Naples). All prose writers of this era used the name 'Catalan' for their common language (e.g. the Catalan Ramon Muntaner, the Majorcan Ramon Llull, etc) The thing is more complicated with the poets as they wrote in a sort of artificial langue d'Oc in the tradition of the trovadours. During 15 and 16 centuries the preeminence is taken by Valencia city, due to several factors, demographic changes, the royal court moves there, etc. So, in 15 century the name 'Valencian' starts to be used by Valencian writers to refer to their language. In 16 century the name 'Llemosí' (that is, the occitan dialect of Limoges) is first documented as refering to Catalan. This attribution has no philological base, but it is explicable by the complex sociolinguistic frame of Catalan poetry of this era (Catalan versus trovadouresques Occitan). Ausias March himself was not sure what language he was writing in (it is clearly his contemporary Catalan or Valencian, and not Occitan anymore). And then, during 16th century most of the Valencian elites switched languages to Castilian Spanish, as can be seen in the balance of languages of printed books in Valencia city: by the beginning of century Latin and Catalan (or Valencian if you prefer) are main languages of press, by the end of the century Spanish is main language of press. But rural areas and urban working classes continued to speak their vernacular language up to this day. The issue of a different language or not for Catalan and Valencian has been politically agitated several times by extreme right wing parties in Valencia city area (curiously they have often been Spanish monoglots or not willing to allow any public presence of Valencian language). Most current (21th century) Valencian speakers and writers use a consensus orthographical normative (Normes de Castelló, 1932) that allows for several diverse idiosincrasies of Valencian, Balearic, Nordoccidental Catalan and Oriental Catalan. Any serious linguist and all universities teaching romance languages consider those linguistics variants to be part of the same language (sort of Canadian French vs French of France). The differences do exist, the accent of a Valencian is recognisable, there are differences in subjunctive terminations, and diverse Valencian lexical items. But those differences are not any wider than among Nordoccidental Catalan and Oriental Catalan. In fact, Septentrional Valencian (spoken in Castelló province and Matarranya valley, a strip of Aragon) is more similar to Catalan of the lower Ebre basin (spoken in south half part of the Tarragona province and another strip of Aragon) than to apitxat Valencian (the Horta, Valencia city area). Use:Perique des Palottes ---- I'm going to try to rewrite the above "try for NPOV" native English (not that it was far off), so we can discuss the POV issue separately from any issue of how correct the English is; I've also made some very small further NPOV changes. User:Perique des Palottes, let me know if there is anywhere you think I'm misrepresenting your intent: Catalan was exported in the 13th century to Balearic Islands and the newly created Valencian Kingdom by the Catalan and Aragonese invaders (note that the area of Catalan language still extends to part of what is now the region of Aragon). During this period, almost all of the Moslem population of the Balearic Islands were expelled, but many Moslem peasants remained in many rural areas of the Valencian Kingdom, as had happened before in the lower Ebre basin (or Catalunya Nova). During 13th and 14th centuries Barcelona was the preeminent city and port of the confederation nominally ruled by the King of Aragon (Aragon, Catalonia, Roussillon, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, Sicily, and - later - Sardinia and Naples). All prose writers of this era used the name 'Catalan' for their common language (e.g. the Catalan Ramon Muntaner, the Majorcan Ramon Llull, etc.) The matter is more complicated among the poets, as they wrote in a sort of artificial Languedocien in the tradition of the troubadors. During the 15th and 16th centuries the city of Valencia gains preeminence in the confederation, due to several factors, including demographic changes and the fact that the royal court moved there. Presumably As a result of this shift in the balance of power within the confederation, in the 15th century the name 'Valencian' starts to be used by writers from Valencia to refer to their language. In the 16th century the name 'Llemosí' (that is to say, "the Occitan dialect of Limoges") is first documented as being used to refer to this language. This attribution has no philological base, but it is explicable by the complex sociolinguistic frame of Catalan poetry of this era (Catalan versus troubadoresque Occitan). Ausias March himself was not sure what to call the language he was writing in (it is clearly closer to his contemporary Catalan or Valencian than to the archaic Occitan). Then, during the 16th century, most of the Valencian elites switched languages to Castilian Spanish, as can be seen in the balance of languages of printed books in Valencia city: at the beginning of century Latin and Catalan (or Valencian if you prefer) are main languages of press, but by the end of the century Spanish is main language of press. Still, rural areas and urban working classes have continued to speak their vernacular language up to this day. ''Do we want to add here to that last sentence, "and Catalan and Valencian have undergone a major revival among urban elites in recent generations."?'' The issue of whether Catalan and Valencian constitute different languages or merely dialects has been the subject of political agitation several times ''during what period? Post Franco? or earlier?'' by extreme right wing parties in the area of the city of Valencia. Curiously, the people claiming Valencian as a separate language have often been Spanish monoglots or people unwilling to allow any public presence of the Valencian language. Most current (21st century) Valencian speakers and writers use a consensus orthographical normative (Normes de Castelló, 1932) that allows for several diverse idiosyncrasies of Valencian, Balearic, Nordoccidental Catalan, and Oriental Catalan. All universities teaching Romance languages, and virtually all linguists, consider these all to be linguistic variants of the same language (similarly to Canadian French vs. Metropolitan French). ''We would do well here to quote a very respectable authority holding this opinion, preferably one from Valencia or abroad, rather than from Catalunya.'' Differences do exist, the accent of a Valencian is recognisable, there are differences in subjunctive terminations, and there are diverse Valencian lexical items (word differences), but those differences are not any wider than among Nordoccidental Catalan and Oriental Catalan. In fact, Septentrional Valencian (spoken in the Castelló province and Matarranya valley, a strip of Aragon) is more similar to the Catalan of the lower Ebre basin (spoken in southern half of Tarragona province and another strip of Aragon) than to ''apitxat'' Valencian (spoken in the city of Horta, in the province of Valencia). ''We would do well here to point to the most respectable authority holding a dissenting opinion.'' -- User:Jmabel 22:12, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC) ---- ''Dividing to win'' -- This is what Spain's doing, even a blind person can see that -- spreding confusion among people that knowns less. The only false POV is the political one, that argues that they are different languages. [[user:PedroPVZ|Pedro] from Portugal ---- "...sharing edition with its Spanish release..." doesn't make sense. User:Nosoccomtothom, could you paraphrase this? It's OK if it's easiest for you to paraphrase in Spanish or Catalan, I can presumably translate. -- User:Jmabel 18:39, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC) Hi, what i wanted to mean is that El Periódico de Catalunya has two releases either in Spanish and Catalan. Both of them have the same identical news but translated in one or other language. How do you think this idea is best shown? Regards User:Nosoccomtothom (answer transferred from my talk page -- User:Jmabel 05:05, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)) ---- Hi, I want to know where the translation for the central Catalan come from. Is this very very old Catalan?? I'm Catalan and I understand this text is not correct at all. There's a lot of errors. An actual correct version of the text would be: Un home només tenia dos fills. El més jove va dir al seu pare: "Ja és hora que sigui el meu propi amo i que tingui cèntims; me n'he d'anar a veure món. Partiu la vostra herència i doneu-me el que em toqui". "Ai, fill meu", va dir el pare, "com vulguis; ets un dolent i Déu et castigarà". I després va obrir una capsa i va partir tot el que tenia en dues parts. Al cap d'uns quants dies, el dolent se'n va anar del poble molt tibat i sense dir adéu a ningú. Va travessar molta terra erma, molts boscos i molts rius, i va arribar a una gran ciutat on es va gastar tots els seus cèntims. "Cèntims" is ok but "diners" is more commonly used. Perhaps this translation is an old one when the people didn't have a proper grammar but at least in the sentence "Ja és hora que sigui el meu propi amo i que ..." the "i" conjunction is missing. And, anyway, even if this is archaic Catalan I think it's better to put an actual correct version. I'm also wondering about the translation of the other Catalan dialects!! --User:Rusian04 04:18, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC) :As the article says, these come from Manuel Milà i Fontanals work in 1861. That is presumably the period of the examples (which come from the Catalan-language version of the article, the only thing added here is my translation of the passage into English for the benefit of English-language readers.) Yes, some of these come off as ''very'' archaic. I read Catalan pretty well, but writing it is another matter; no one seems to have seen fit in the Catalan Wikipedia to add modern equivalents; I think that would be worth doing, but I also think it is very vaulable to preserve examples of the older, more extreme, dialects. My own Catalan isn't good enough to be confident in writing that; you are a native speaker. It would be a useful addition, certainly here in the English Wikipedia and probably even in the Catalan Wikipedia. : I would quite disagree with the view behind "didn't have a proper grammar." The fact that the grammar of one time and place differs from another doesn't mean that one of them is wrong. Just like modern Catalan isn't "very bad Latin" (or vice versa), the various 19th-century regional dialects were not unsuccessful attempts to talk like a Barcelones. They were (presumably correct) uses of the dialect of their time and place. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 06:10, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC) ---- "Majorquinian" doesn't appear in Google outside Wikipedia. The English adjectives for the islands are "Majorcan" and "Minorcan". --User:Henrygb 23:23, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC) == Language politics in Valencia == The following was recently and anonymously cut: "...by extreme right wing parties in the area of the city of Valencia. Curiously, the people claiming Valencian as a separate language have often been Spanish monoglots or people unwilling to allow any public presence of Valencian." I believe the cut material to be correct, but probably the sort of thing that should have a citation. I would welcome its restoration, especially with appropriate citation, but I have neither a reference nor first-hand knowledge. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 01:46, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC) The current ruckus is (mostly) between ERC (leftist catalan independentists) and PP (Spanish centralist). Curiously, the Valencian side is mostly advocated by a party which is (to put it mildly) unsympathetic to decentralization and national minorities. I would like to know from someone in Valencia what the position of UV (valencian nationalist) is, because I can´t find that in the Spanish national media. — User:Miguel 12:32, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC) == "Passive" vs "Active" Speakers == The article states that Catalan is spoken by 6.5 million people "actively," and 12 million "passively." I have never for another language heard such a distinction made. Can someone please explain? I would think that a person who understands a language "passively" cannot be considered a speaker of a language. If he cannot speak the language, he is not a speaker of the language. Sounds like some inflation of numbers for political purposes if you ask me. User:Peter Wye January 16th 2005 == Partisan and unencyclopedic edits == User:68.6.123.6 is making massive, partisan, and unencyclopedic edits to this article. However, I am not sure that the ''substance'' of what he/she is saying is entirely incorrect. Therefore, I am not immediately reverting. Someone more expert than I will probably want to look through these edits and determine if any of them are worth keeping, possibly in somewhat modified form. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 20:30, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC) ==Backwards, very backwards== Of what possible use is [http://www.dilc.org/ Diccionari Invers de la Llengua Catalana], recently added to external links, based on spelling Catalan words backwards? Seems like basically a joke. I think it should be removed, but thought I'd bring the question here first. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 22:15, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC) :I dunno... it could be useful to find rhymes when writing poetry. — User:Chameleon 23:11, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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