
A cardinal is a senior Ecclesiology official in the Roman Catholic Church, ranking just below the Pope and appointed by him as a member of the College of Cardinals during a consistory. The duties of the Cardinals are to attend the meetings of the Sacred College and to make themselves available individually if the Pope desires their counsel. Most Cardinals have additional duties either leading many of the Church's dioceses and archdioceses or running the Roman Curia. Excluding the rochet, which is always white, a Cardinal wears scarlet (color) garments when in choir, including the cassock, mozzetta, zucchetto, and biretta. His normal-wear simar is black but has scarlet sash and trim. He wears a ring which is traditionally kissed by Catholics when he is greeted. The bright red color of the scarlet symbolizes a cardinal's willingness to die for his faith. Upon a pope's death, the College runs the Church during the sede vacante; those under 80 years old are also responsible for papal election. Pope Sixtus V limited the number of cardinals to 70 (six cardinal bishops, 50 cardinal priests, 14 cardinal deacons). Popes since Pope John XXIII have disregarded this limitation in order to make the college of cardinals a more representative body. Pope John Paul II elevated an additional 31 cardinals in a consistory on October 21, 2003, bringing the number of cardinals at that time to 194. As of John Paul II's death, 117 of the then-current 183 cardinals were young enough to be electors. The term "cardinal" derives from the Latin ''cardo'', or hinge, suggesting the fulcrum-like leadership role they play. Because of the red color of their vestments, cardinals are the namesakes for the cardinal (bird). ==Orders== According to Canon 350 of Canon law, the College of Cardinals is divided into three orders: * the episcopal order (Cardinal Bishops), * the presbyteral order (Cardinal Priests), the most numerous group, * the diaconal order (Cardinal Deacons). Most Cardinal bishops are those to whom the Pope assigns the title of a suburbicarian diocese church; that group elects a Dean of the College of Cardinals to be the head of the college, the first among equals; the election must be approved by the Pope. At the Pope's discretion, Patriarchs of the Eastern Rite Churches may also be appointed as Cardinal bishops to the College, but these bishops cannot elect the dean or be elected dean. Cardinal priests and cardinal deacons are each assigned a title or deaconry in Rome by the Pope. All cardinal priests and almost all cardinal deacons are actually bishops. Originally any Catholic male could be appointed to the College: for example in the 16th century Reginald Cardinal Pole was a cardinal for 18 years before he was ordained a priest. Today only bishops are normally created cardinals. Canon 351 specifically requires that a cardinal at least be in the order of priest, and those who are not already bishops must receive episcopal consecration. A recent exception is Avery Cardinal Dulles, Society of Jesus, who was a priest at the time of his elevation to Cardinal in 2001. He successfully petitioned Pope John Paul II for a dispensation from episcopal consecration due to advanced age. As such, he cannot become a Cardinal Bishop unless he is consecrated a bishop. ==Secret cardinal== In addition to the named cardinals, a pope may name cardinals ''in pectore'', Latin for ''in the breast''. A cardinal named ''in pectore'' is known only to the pope; not even the cardinal so named is aware of his elevation. Cardinals are named ''in pectore'' to protect them or their congregations from reprisals if their identities were known. If conditions change such that a secret cardinal would be safe, the pope may at any time make public a previously ''in pectore'' cardinal, who ranks in precedence with those of his original consistory. If a pope dies before revealing the identity of an ''in pectore'' cardinal, the cardinalate expires. This was the case with Pope John Paul II, who named an ''in pectore'' cardinal during his tenure that remained secret even on his death on April 2, 2005. Many speculated that the Holy Father's will would contain the name of the ''in pectore'' cardinal, but it did not. ==Other privileges== [[Image:Oconnor seal 173x200.jpg|thumb|The Coat of arms of John Cardinal O'Connor, showing the scarlet ''galero'']] *If the cardinal is not a bishop, he is allowed the ceremonial privileges of one. *Cardinals place a scarlet ''galero'' with thirty tassels, the ancient symbol of their office, above their coat of arms. *Since 1630, cardinals have taken the style (address) ''Eminence'', and upon elevation the word "Cardinal" becomes part of the prelate's name, traditionally coming immediately before the surname. As an example, the full style of Theodore Cardinal McCarrick is "His Eminence, Theodore Cardinal McCarrick, Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Washington." ==History== The cardinals did not always elect the Pope: the Pope was originally elected by the clergy and the people of the Rome Church, but during the medieval times, as the Roman nobility gained too great an influence, as the Holy Roman Emperors interfered into the choosing of a pope and as the papacy gained importance as an international figure, the right of election was given to the cardinals in 1159. The Pope could substitute another body of electors for the College of Cardinals at any time; in fact there have been proposals in the past to have the Synod of Bishops perform this function (the proposals have not been adopted because, among other reasons, the Synod of Bishops can only meet when called by the Pope). In Early Modern period times, England and France monarchs had cardinals as their chief ministers—Thomas Cardinal Wolsey in England, Cardinal Richelieu and Cardinal Mazarin in France. These men were cardinals, not because of their religious duties, but because it allowed their kings to pay them from church revenues. Rome accepted the loss of some revenue in order to protect the rest of its property and revenue. ==See also== *List of cardinals Cardinal th:พระคาร์ดินัล
I have added a paragraph about the politician cardinals - Wolsey, Richelieu and Mazarin. Its not meant to be a criticism of the office but I think the article needs an explanation of why three of the most famous cardinals in history were politicians more than churchmen. User:Edmilne 07:21, Nov 27, 2003 (UTC) ---- A couple questions. Are cardinals restricted to being drawn ftom the ranks of bishops by law or only by custom? Did the "people" of Rome really once elect the Pope or only a small select group such as priests, or politicians? I didn't know the common folk every had a vote in Rome. --rmhermen : In Eastern Orthodoxy and I believe in early Church history, the ordination of any bishop would require at least three other bishops; I think the number was reduced to two in later years. A single bishop could ordain a priest or deacon. But with all three offices, the consent of the people is also required; a bishop cannot be ordained without the people's "Amen"; it's an essential part of the liturgy. On a related note, I believe there was a time in the 1400's just before the Byzantine Empire fell to the turks, that some Byzantine bishops went to Rome to ask for military aid. In exchange, they agreed to adopt the :filioque clause and submit themselves to the Pope. By the time those bishops returned home, the people had learned what happened and wouldn't let them off the boat, the agreement never went into effect, and Constantinople fell to the Turks instead of falling to Rome. --User:Wesley ::Requiring the Amen for validity and requiring the actual approval of a vote of the people are, of course, different things. In the the Roman Empire there was often an ''acclamatio'' for public events - the arrival of an emperor, the appointment of an emperor, etc. We can treat that as a vote or as a public gesture under duress (sometimes we know it was that - soldiers standing around with weapons). There is a similar acclamation remaining in the Western ordination liturgies for priests and bishops, but no one pretends that the candidates are actually elected by local congregations. Liturgy and ecclesiastical organization are closely related but not identical. Unless we can find cases where men dressed for the ordination ceremony are regretfully sent back to the monastery while someone ''else'' is ordained, I think it's better to understand this 'requirement' as ''acclamatio'' and not ''electio''. --MichaelTinkler ------ Well, as I understand it some Pope announced that all later cardinals would be bishops, and all later Popes have followed him by only appointing bishops as Popes; but there is nothing to stop the Pope changing his mind tomorrow and appointing a plain priest or a layperson a cardinal instead. The distinction between 'law' and 'custom' doesn't always make that much sense, especially I think in cases like this. As to who could vote for the Pope before the cardinals could, I'm not to sure. Someone should do some research on the topic. -- User:SJK ------ Not exactly a vote, but as a pressure group (rioting outside wherever the electors were, stoning electors as they left, etc.) they certainly had influence. I think that under the new code of canon law --voting-- cardinals may be formally restricted to being bishops. John Paul II has appointed several aging theologians to cardinalates who were not previously bishops (Jean Danielou, a Frenchman, is an example), and I'm not sure if he created them titular bishops along with cardinals to make up for it. In the case of these men they were controversial enough that the fact they were over 80 mattered. --MichaelTinkler ------ I think today whenever the Pope appoints a non-bishop to be a cardinal he has them consecrated a bishop first, but I'm not completely sure. -- User:SJK ----- yep, just ran and checked online ( http://www.prairienet.org/nrpcatholic/e204-459.html#2 ) :Canon 351 §1 Those to be promoted Cardinals are men freely selected by the Roman Pontiff, who are at least in the order of priesthood and are truly outstanding in doctrine, virtue, piety and prudence in practical matters; those who are not already Bishops must receive episcopal consecration. by the way, the Pope doesn't have to be a bishop on election, either (which I knew, but had forgotten): :Canon 355 §1 It belongs to the Cardinal Dean to ordain the elected Roman Pontiff a Bishop, if he is not already ordained. If the Dean is prevented from doing so, the same right belongs to the sub-Dean or, if he is prevented, to the senior Cardinal of the episcopal order. ------ you are right that Canon 351 §1 states that non-bishops must receive episcopal consecration, but the Pope has the right to dispense someone from receiving it. Examples: Cardinal Dulles and Cardinal Scheffczyk asked the pope to excuse them from receiving the episcopal consecration because of advanced age. The pope accepted it. Thus those 2 are cardinals without being bishops. User:143.50.212.195 15:04, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC) ------ == Terminology == If, say, the Archbishop of Boston is a Cardinal, is it then correct to refer to him as "the Cardinal of Boston"? S. :No. The office of Cardinal does not entail responsibilities over any particular geographic area, unlike (in most cases) the office of Bishop; hence he is not the "Cardinal of Boston". -- user:SJK. ::You can refer to Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte, the Archbishop of Montreal; but not the Cardinal of Montreal. - User:Montrealais If it doesn't already exist, would a List of notable cardinals be of any use? --User:KF 18:07, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC) ---- The syntactic construction used once on this page, e.g. Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte, is not widely understood, and IMO worth a paragraph. I'm pretty sure i've heard the expression "cardinal archbishop" without a name; is that an error? Is "Archbishop Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte" better or worse than "Archbishop Jean-Claude Turcotte"? Also, i changed a listing to *Thich Nhat Hanh (''Thich'' is a title, not a name) (b. 1926) expatriate Vietnamese Buddhist religious leader and spirituality author in List of people by name: Tf-Th#Thf - Thi and intend in List of people by name: Nh, to have *Nhat Hanh, Thich (''Thich'' is a title, not a name) (b. 1926) expatriate Vietnamese Buddhist religious leader and spirituality author By analogy with that List of people by name: Mas-Maz#Maz lists *Cardinal Mazarin, (1602 - 1661), Cardinal (Catholicism) and chief minister of France which i'm inclined to change to *Cardinal Mazarin Cardinal ("Cardinal" is a title not a name, but appears just before the surname, whether with or without the given name), (1602 - 1661), Cardinal (Catholicism) and chief minister of France (Note he is the only Mazarin, so there is no need for a duplicate entry for people who don't know about "jules".) The article Cardinal Mazarin begins :Jules Mazarin, born Giulio Mazarini; but best known as Cardinal Mazarin (1602 - 1661) but am i right that :Jules Mazarin, born Giulio Mazarini; but best known as Cardinal Mazarin (or with full formality Jules Cardinal Mazarin) (1602 - 1661) would be accurate and more thorough? --User:Jerzy 07:41, 2004 Jan 21 (UTC) ---- Neither "Archbishop Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte" or "Archbishop Jean-Claude Turcotte" would be correct; archbishop refers to the individual's position, while Cardinal is his title (unlike, for example, the Archbishop of Louisville, Kentucky, who would correctly be addressed as "Archbishop Thomas C. Kelly" because his title is Archbishop and his position is Archbishop). It would be correct to refer to the individual as "Cardinal Turcotte," or as "Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte, Archbishop of Montreal," but it would be an insult to demote him to "Archbishop Turcotte." It is, however, acceptable to refer to him as the "Cardinal Archbishop of Montreal" or as a "Cardinal Archbishop," because those terms signify that the individual is a Cardinal who is in charge of an Archdiocese. (All Cardinals are not assigned a diocese to govern.) --User:Essjay 03:24, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)Essjay "Not all Cardinals are assigned a diocese" - however I understand that all Cardinals are also appointed to a parish within the diocese of Rome. Thus although they are "princes of the church" they are also humble servants of a parish. (IANARC) User:Albatross2147 11:15, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) While Cardinals are all ceremonially tied to particular churches or dioceses, they play virtually no role in those areas besides offering their prayers. When I made the statement "Not all Cardinals are assigned to a diocese" the context was: Not all Cardinals serve as diocean bishops, responsible for the daily functioning of a diocese. Many Cardinals, including the former Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, served in the Roman Curia, the Vatican offices of the church. Thus, in the discussion of Archbishop v. Cardinal, this becomes important. Some Cardinals are archbishops of a particular diocese, but others are not, and you would not refer to a Cardinal as bishop or archbishop of their titular diocese. I was not in any way attempting to suggest that the Cardinals are not "humble servants." It was merely a deliniation of which titles apply to which individuals. --User:Essjay 22:40, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Some cardinals are not archbishops == Some cardinals are not archbishops due to the fact that they do not lead archdioceses, either residential or titular see. Karl Cardinal Lehmann and Paul Cardinal Shan Kuo-hsi are examples, as they are respectively the Bishop of Mainz and the Bishop of Kaohsiung. Mainz was an archdiocese but was demoted in 1801; currently, its metropolitan bishop is the Archbishop of Freiburg im Breisgau. The Diocese of Kaohsiung was erected in 1961 and hasn't been elevated yet; its metropolitan is the Archbishop of Taipei. User:Pmadrid 18:50, 24 May 2005 (UTC) :Additionally, Avery Cardinal Dulles is a priest, not even a bishop. User:Gentgeen 19:26, 24 May 2005 (UTC) *Terribly sorry to have made such an egregious mistake; while I was aware (and argued above) that many Cardinals do not serve as the prelate of ANY diocese (arch or otherwise), and thus are not bishops or archbishops in the diocean sense (although still of the episcopal rank), and that some of them are not of the episcopal rank, I was unaware of any Cardinals who served as bishops rather than archbishops. My peculiar experience is with the US, and there are no cardinal bishops in the US, only cardinal archbishops. (Although, there are Cardinals in/from the US who do not serve as diocean prelates.) User:Essjay 03:33, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
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Words begining with Cardinal_(Catholicism):
Cardinal_(Catholicism)
Cardinal_(Catholicism)
Cardinal (Catholicism)
A cardinal is a senior Ecclesiology official in the Roman Catholic Church, ranking just below the Pope and appointed by him as a member of the College of Cardinals during a consistory. The duties of the Cardinals are to attend the meetings of the Sacred College and to make themselves available individually if the Pope desires their counsel. Most Cardinals have additional duties either leading many of the Church's dioceses and archdioceses or running the Roman Curia. Excluding the rochet, which is always white, a Cardinal wears scarlet (color) garments when in choir, including the cassock, mozzetta, zucchetto, and biretta. His normal-wear simar is black but has scarlet sash and trim. He wears a ring which is traditionally kissed by Catholics when he is greeted. The bright red color of the scarlet symbolizes a cardinal's willingness to die for his faith. Upon a pope's death, the College runs the Church during the sede vacante; those under 80 years old are also responsible for papal election. Pope Sixtus V limited the number of cardinals to 70 (six cardinal bishops, 50 cardinal priests, 14 cardinal deacons). Popes since Pope John XXIII have disregarded this limitation in order to make the college of cardinals a more representative body. Pope John Paul II elevated an additional 31 cardinals in a consistory on October 21, 2003, bringing the number of cardinals at that time to 194. As of John Paul II's death, 117 of the then-current 183 cardinals were young enough to be electors. The term "cardinal" derives from the Latin ''cardo'', or hinge, suggesting the fulcrum-like leadership role they play. Because of the red color of their vestments, cardinals are the namesakes for the cardinal (bird). ==Orders== According to Canon 350 of Canon law, the College of Cardinals is divided into three orders: * the episcopal order (Cardinal Bishops), * the presbyteral order (Cardinal Priests), the most numerous group, * the diaconal order (Cardinal Deacons). Most Cardinal bishops are those to whom the Pope assigns the title of a suburbicarian diocese church; that group elects a Dean of the College of Cardinals to be the head of the college, the first among equals; the election must be approved by the Pope. At the Pope's discretion, Patriarchs of the Eastern Rite Churches may also be appointed as Cardinal bishops to the College, but these bishops cannot elect the dean or be elected dean. Cardinal priests and cardinal deacons are each assigned a title or deaconry in Rome by the Pope. All cardinal priests and almost all cardinal deacons are actually bishops. Originally any Catholic male could be appointed to the College: for example in the 16th century Reginald Cardinal Pole was a cardinal for 18 years before he was ordained a priest. Today only bishops are normally created cardinals. Canon 351 specifically requires that a cardinal at least be in the order of priest, and those who are not already bishops must receive episcopal consecration. A recent exception is Avery Cardinal Dulles, Society of Jesus, who was a priest at the time of his elevation to Cardinal in 2001. He successfully petitioned Pope John Paul II for a dispensation from episcopal consecration due to advanced age. As such, he cannot become a Cardinal Bishop unless he is consecrated a bishop. ==Secret cardinal== In addition to the named cardinals, a pope may name cardinals ''in pectore'', Latin for ''in the breast''. A cardinal named ''in pectore'' is known only to the pope; not even the cardinal so named is aware of his elevation. Cardinals are named ''in pectore'' to protect them or their congregations from reprisals if their identities were known. If conditions change such that a secret cardinal would be safe, the pope may at any time make public a previously ''in pectore'' cardinal, who ranks in precedence with those of his original consistory. If a pope dies before revealing the identity of an ''in pectore'' cardinal, the cardinalate expires. This was the case with Pope John Paul II, who named an ''in pectore'' cardinal during his tenure that remained secret even on his death on April 2, 2005. Many speculated that the Holy Father's will would contain the name of the ''in pectore'' cardinal, but it did not. ==Other privileges== [[Image:Oconnor seal 173x200.jpg|thumb|The Coat of arms of John Cardinal O'Connor, showing the scarlet ''galero'']] *If the cardinal is not a bishop, he is allowed the ceremonial privileges of one. *Cardinals place a scarlet ''galero'' with thirty tassels, the ancient symbol of their office, above their coat of arms. *Since 1630, cardinals have taken the style (address) ''Eminence'', and upon elevation the word "Cardinal" becomes part of the prelate's name, traditionally coming immediately before the surname. As an example, the full style of Theodore Cardinal McCarrick is "His Eminence, Theodore Cardinal McCarrick, Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Washington." ==History== The cardinals did not always elect the Pope: the Pope was originally elected by the clergy and the people of the Rome Church, but during the medieval times, as the Roman nobility gained too great an influence, as the Holy Roman Emperors interfered into the choosing of a pope and as the papacy gained importance as an international figure, the right of election was given to the cardinals in 1159. The Pope could substitute another body of electors for the College of Cardinals at any time; in fact there have been proposals in the past to have the Synod of Bishops perform this function (the proposals have not been adopted because, among other reasons, the Synod of Bishops can only meet when called by the Pope). In Early Modern period times, England and France monarchs had cardinals as their chief ministers—Thomas Cardinal Wolsey in England, Cardinal Richelieu and Cardinal Mazarin in France. These men were cardinals, not because of their religious duties, but because it allowed their kings to pay them from church revenues. Rome accepted the loss of some revenue in order to protect the rest of its property and revenue. ==See also== *List of cardinals Cardinal th:พระคาร์ดินัล
Cardinal (Catholicism)
I have added a paragraph about the politician cardinals - Wolsey, Richelieu and Mazarin. Its not meant to be a criticism of the office but I think the article needs an explanation of why three of the most famous cardinals in history were politicians more than churchmen. User:Edmilne 07:21, Nov 27, 2003 (UTC) ---- A couple questions. Are cardinals restricted to being drawn ftom the ranks of bishops by law or only by custom? Did the "people" of Rome really once elect the Pope or only a small select group such as priests, or politicians? I didn't know the common folk every had a vote in Rome. --rmhermen : In Eastern Orthodoxy and I believe in early Church history, the ordination of any bishop would require at least three other bishops; I think the number was reduced to two in later years. A single bishop could ordain a priest or deacon. But with all three offices, the consent of the people is also required; a bishop cannot be ordained without the people's "Amen"; it's an essential part of the liturgy. On a related note, I believe there was a time in the 1400's just before the Byzantine Empire fell to the turks, that some Byzantine bishops went to Rome to ask for military aid. In exchange, they agreed to adopt the :filioque clause and submit themselves to the Pope. By the time those bishops returned home, the people had learned what happened and wouldn't let them off the boat, the agreement never went into effect, and Constantinople fell to the Turks instead of falling to Rome. --User:Wesley ::Requiring the Amen for validity and requiring the actual approval of a vote of the people are, of course, different things. In the the Roman Empire there was often an ''acclamatio'' for public events - the arrival of an emperor, the appointment of an emperor, etc. We can treat that as a vote or as a public gesture under duress (sometimes we know it was that - soldiers standing around with weapons). There is a similar acclamation remaining in the Western ordination liturgies for priests and bishops, but no one pretends that the candidates are actually elected by local congregations. Liturgy and ecclesiastical organization are closely related but not identical. Unless we can find cases where men dressed for the ordination ceremony are regretfully sent back to the monastery while someone ''else'' is ordained, I think it's better to understand this 'requirement' as ''acclamatio'' and not ''electio''. --MichaelTinkler ------ Well, as I understand it some Pope announced that all later cardinals would be bishops, and all later Popes have followed him by only appointing bishops as Popes; but there is nothing to stop the Pope changing his mind tomorrow and appointing a plain priest or a layperson a cardinal instead. The distinction between 'law' and 'custom' doesn't always make that much sense, especially I think in cases like this. As to who could vote for the Pope before the cardinals could, I'm not to sure. Someone should do some research on the topic. -- User:SJK ------ Not exactly a vote, but as a pressure group (rioting outside wherever the electors were, stoning electors as they left, etc.) they certainly had influence. I think that under the new code of canon law --voting-- cardinals may be formally restricted to being bishops. John Paul II has appointed several aging theologians to cardinalates who were not previously bishops (Jean Danielou, a Frenchman, is an example), and I'm not sure if he created them titular bishops along with cardinals to make up for it. In the case of these men they were controversial enough that the fact they were over 80 mattered. --MichaelTinkler ------ I think today whenever the Pope appoints a non-bishop to be a cardinal he has them consecrated a bishop first, but I'm not completely sure. -- User:SJK ----- yep, just ran and checked online ( http://www.prairienet.org/nrpcatholic/e204-459.html#2 ) :Canon 351 §1 Those to be promoted Cardinals are men freely selected by the Roman Pontiff, who are at least in the order of priesthood and are truly outstanding in doctrine, virtue, piety and prudence in practical matters; those who are not already Bishops must receive episcopal consecration. by the way, the Pope doesn't have to be a bishop on election, either (which I knew, but had forgotten): :Canon 355 §1 It belongs to the Cardinal Dean to ordain the elected Roman Pontiff a Bishop, if he is not already ordained. If the Dean is prevented from doing so, the same right belongs to the sub-Dean or, if he is prevented, to the senior Cardinal of the episcopal order. ------ you are right that Canon 351 §1 states that non-bishops must receive episcopal consecration, but the Pope has the right to dispense someone from receiving it. Examples: Cardinal Dulles and Cardinal Scheffczyk asked the pope to excuse them from receiving the episcopal consecration because of advanced age. The pope accepted it. Thus those 2 are cardinals without being bishops. User:143.50.212.195 15:04, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC) ------ == Terminology == If, say, the Archbishop of Boston is a Cardinal, is it then correct to refer to him as "the Cardinal of Boston"? S. :No. The office of Cardinal does not entail responsibilities over any particular geographic area, unlike (in most cases) the office of Bishop; hence he is not the "Cardinal of Boston". -- user:SJK. ::You can refer to Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte, the Archbishop of Montreal; but not the Cardinal of Montreal. - User:Montrealais If it doesn't already exist, would a List of notable cardinals be of any use? --User:KF 18:07, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC) ---- The syntactic construction used once on this page, e.g. Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte, is not widely understood, and IMO worth a paragraph. I'm pretty sure i've heard the expression "cardinal archbishop" without a name; is that an error? Is "Archbishop Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte" better or worse than "Archbishop Jean-Claude Turcotte"? Also, i changed a listing to *Thich Nhat Hanh (''Thich'' is a title, not a name) (b. 1926) expatriate Vietnamese Buddhist religious leader and spirituality author in List of people by name: Tf-Th#Thf - Thi and intend in List of people by name: Nh, to have *Nhat Hanh, Thich (''Thich'' is a title, not a name) (b. 1926) expatriate Vietnamese Buddhist religious leader and spirituality author By analogy with that List of people by name: Mas-Maz#Maz lists *Cardinal Mazarin, (1602 - 1661), Cardinal (Catholicism) and chief minister of France which i'm inclined to change to *Cardinal Mazarin Cardinal ("Cardinal" is a title not a name, but appears just before the surname, whether with or without the given name), (1602 - 1661), Cardinal (Catholicism) and chief minister of France (Note he is the only Mazarin, so there is no need for a duplicate entry for people who don't know about "jules".) The article Cardinal Mazarin begins :Jules Mazarin, born Giulio Mazarini; but best known as Cardinal Mazarin (1602 - 1661) but am i right that :Jules Mazarin, born Giulio Mazarini; but best known as Cardinal Mazarin (or with full formality Jules Cardinal Mazarin) (1602 - 1661) would be accurate and more thorough? --User:Jerzy 07:41, 2004 Jan 21 (UTC) ---- Neither "Archbishop Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte" or "Archbishop Jean-Claude Turcotte" would be correct; archbishop refers to the individual's position, while Cardinal is his title (unlike, for example, the Archbishop of Louisville, Kentucky, who would correctly be addressed as "Archbishop Thomas C. Kelly" because his title is Archbishop and his position is Archbishop). It would be correct to refer to the individual as "Cardinal Turcotte," or as "Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte, Archbishop of Montreal," but it would be an insult to demote him to "Archbishop Turcotte." It is, however, acceptable to refer to him as the "Cardinal Archbishop of Montreal" or as a "Cardinal Archbishop," because those terms signify that the individual is a Cardinal who is in charge of an Archdiocese. (All Cardinals are not assigned a diocese to govern.) --User:Essjay 03:24, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)Essjay "Not all Cardinals are assigned a diocese" - however I understand that all Cardinals are also appointed to a parish within the diocese of Rome. Thus although they are "princes of the church" they are also humble servants of a parish. (IANARC) User:Albatross2147 11:15, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) While Cardinals are all ceremonially tied to particular churches or dioceses, they play virtually no role in those areas besides offering their prayers. When I made the statement "Not all Cardinals are assigned to a diocese" the context was: Not all Cardinals serve as diocean bishops, responsible for the daily functioning of a diocese. Many Cardinals, including the former Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, served in the Roman Curia, the Vatican offices of the church. Thus, in the discussion of Archbishop v. Cardinal, this becomes important. Some Cardinals are archbishops of a particular diocese, but others are not, and you would not refer to a Cardinal as bishop or archbishop of their titular diocese. I was not in any way attempting to suggest that the Cardinals are not "humble servants." It was merely a deliniation of which titles apply to which individuals. --User:Essjay 22:40, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) == Some cardinals are not archbishops == Some cardinals are not archbishops due to the fact that they do not lead archdioceses, either residential or titular see. Karl Cardinal Lehmann and Paul Cardinal Shan Kuo-hsi are examples, as they are respectively the Bishop of Mainz and the Bishop of Kaohsiung. Mainz was an archdiocese but was demoted in 1801; currently, its metropolitan bishop is the Archbishop of Freiburg im Breisgau. The Diocese of Kaohsiung was erected in 1961 and hasn't been elevated yet; its metropolitan is the Archbishop of Taipei. User:Pmadrid 18:50, 24 May 2005 (UTC) :Additionally, Avery Cardinal Dulles is a priest, not even a bishop. User:Gentgeen 19:26, 24 May 2005 (UTC) *Terribly sorry to have made such an egregious mistake; while I was aware (and argued above) that many Cardinals do not serve as the prelate of ANY diocese (arch or otherwise), and thus are not bishops or archbishops in the diocean sense (although still of the episcopal rank), and that some of them are not of the episcopal rank, I was unaware of any Cardinals who served as bishops rather than archbishops. My peculiar experience is with the US, and there are no cardinal bishops in the US, only cardinal archbishops. (Although, there are Cardinals in/from the US who do not serve as diocean prelates.) User:Essjay 03:33, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
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