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Assam
AssamPlease stop editing section \"Origin of name\". We should resolve the issues first and try to arrive at a consensus. If not, we will have to adopt other dispute resolution mechanisms. In the meantime, I have reverted to the Feb 25, 2005 version. I shall set up another page where these issues will be discussed separately. Probably here Talk:Assam/OriginDisputeResolution User:Chaipau 20:27, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC) i removed portions which were copied from [http://www.assam.org/content.php?menu=9&page_id=1] User:Kingturtle 08:57 May 1, 2003 (UTC) The expanded portion on Bihu can be deleted since Bihu has an individual entry. User:Chaipau 01:34, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC) ==Reason for NPOV tag== I have put a NPOV tag on this article because the ''Different Interpretation'' section seems very pov to me. Example: :''This was because the local Assamese people did not have the aptitude for hard work. They lived in a paradise where no work was required to grow their food since the land was so fertile. Therefore they grew lazy and fat and were averse to hard work.'' I am not knowledgeable about this topic, so I'll refrain from editing it myself, but maybe someone who is familiar with this can have a look at it and separate facts from opinion. The section also needs some spelling/style revisions, I think. User:Sietse Snel 11:56, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC) * The section has been NPOV-ized. ::Thanks! That's a lot better. User:Sietse Snel 10:53, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC) ==Disputed reference to ''assama''== This is a request to user connecting from 65.38.226.42, 65.38.226.56 and other IP addresses. The paragraph on ''assama'' needs a reference. The paragraph is: :The word “assama” was used during the time while Bhaskarvarman ruled Kamarupa. Then the present upper Assam used to emit poisonous gasses and uninhabitable. To this land, some of the Kamrupi criminals escaped during those days in order to avoid punishment. The Chinese traveler Xuensang wrote about it in his travel note. Those people were also referred “assama” or "asama";, and Xuensang not traveling back to China through this route was because he was worried about getting attacked by “assama” people.“assama” or “asama” in Kamrupi can also mean one who is not compared with. Please provide the reference in which ''assama'' is used in the context of an escaped convict during Bhaskarvarman's time. Is it a Sanskrit or Assamese word? The reference that the Chinese traveller did not travel to China via Assam for fear of these ''assama''s is also needed. There are references of a robust trade between Kamrupa and China at that time, and Bhaskarvarman is said to have mentioned a Chinese song which was popular in Kamrupa at that time (Suniti Kumar Chatterjee). Why would Xuanzang not take this well travelled trade route if he wanted to get back to China? The Assamese word for a convict is ''assami'' with roots in the Persian language, according to Assamese dictionaries (Chandra Kanta Abhidhan). The text that mentioned this was deleted. To build up a good page and make it into a featured article, please follow the guidelines given in Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial and Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Examples. User:Chaipau 23:08, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC) Deleting assami was good job because assami and assama are two different words. In assama, /s/ and /s/ forms a conjunct though you may pronounce it as asama. : Please refrain from deleting or adding stuff to this article. I do not want an edit war on this article. I made this request earlier. User:Chaipau 02:10, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC) ===Additional disputed paragaph=== You have not replied to the earlier dispute. Instead you have edited added another problematic paragraph. :Anthera Assama was discovered long before the Yandabu Accord, and ''assama'' here implies ''unequal'' or ''not comparable with'' – ''assama'' was chosen as part of the ''scientific name'' because the silkworm can only live in the climate of foothills of Eastern Himalayas. First, the sentence is factually not correct. The earliest nomenclature of the Muga silkworm is from 1837 [http://www.funet.fi/pub/sci/bio/life/insecta/lepidoptera/ditrysia/bombycoidea/saturniidae/saturniinae/antheraea/index.html#assamensis], more than 10 years after the Treaty of Yandaboo. Second, the date of Yandaboo Treaty is not important because it isn't likely that the British did not have a name for Assam before the treaty was signed. Third, ''assama'' is indeed "unequal", but that does not mean the name of Assam comes from ''assama''. Please give reference to your claim that the Muga silkworm is named after the Sanskrit word for unequal because it can survive only in the foothills of the Himalayas (which is also untrue because the Muga silkworm provides a thriving sericulture business today as well as it did in the past in the Brahmaputra valley, which is almost at sea-level). Kindly refrain from adding anything to the article before this dispute is settled. User:Chaipau 06:38, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC) ===Commenting out some portion of text in origine of name==== In spite of User:Chaipau's warning I have commented out (have not deleted, the editors can still see & use the commented text) portion of origine of name because I felt that this kind of dispute on the article page looks very bad. I am sorry if I have hurt anyone's feelings in the process. If you guys think I am right, let it stay that way. If you think I am wrong, go ahead and undo my editings, I won't mind and will take it sportingly. User:Psneog 07:03, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC) My opinion is that you should not have done that, and would appreciate it if you put the same back Please create a login and sign your modifications whenever you do any more modifications. I have seen some other user also made such anonymous changes. It establishes credibility and creates a good environment for discussion. User:Psneog 05:32, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC) Motto - Land of the Red River and Blue Hills ''What is the source of reference for this motto?'' ''(To the best of my knowledge, a U.S. national by name Jugal Kalita introduced this motto for the first time in a website called assam.org that he owns. There were neither historic-evidences nor records for this motto so I edited and deleted the same.)'' Jai Aai Asom – ''this motto has been since 1950 very popular and popularized by the students of Assam, a very Assamese motto without any foreign hand.'' === ''Assama'' or ''Asama'' means criminal/sinner/weird and ''not comparable with''=== Reference 1 Kamrupi Bhagavad Puran Reference 2 Ja Mo Lo Pho – by Shuen Shang Xuanzan(Kamarupa – by Huen Tsang) ''asama'' or ''assama'' – Kamrupi meaning would be ''weird'' or ''not compared with''. This word had never been used in Kamrupi scriptures to represent a land, but had been used to represent a ''specific class of people'' not caste (see ''reference 1''). These people were not Ahom either but ''weird/sinner'' according to the scripture, and anybody claiming them Ahom would do a big mistake demonstrating lake of knowledge. : The Bhagavad Puran is obviously a big piece of work. Could you tell us which specific use you are refering to here? Also, I am not aware of a Kamrupi Bhagavad Puran. Could you please let us know which translation you are refering to. User:Chaipau 19:58, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC) : Further, please sign your entries in this page using 4 tildas. User:Chaipau 19:58, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC) Both Chinese and Japanese write foreign name using their own art. ''Ja Mo Lo Pho'' is the mane one will find in original scripture or travel note that is preserved in a shrine in China. The Chinese do not see the same as travel note but see as ''Holy Scripture''. Even Kamrupi villagers use the word ''asama/assama'' for the ''weird'' context, also the other ''not comparable with'', as in the ''reference 1'' “Kamrupi Bhagavad Puran”. As I stated, no Kamrupi scriptures used this word to represent the land. : The present use of a similar sounding word is irrelevant, since the word "Assam" used to donote the land, kingdom or people is many hundred years old. If you claim this is not the origin of the word Assam, then I do not see how this is relevant at all. User:Chaipau 19:58, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC) : Ahom is not a ''many hundred years'' old phenomenon, it is not even a thousand year old issue. ''Assamese words'' are misspelled and mispronounced ''Kamrupi words.'' Kamrupi is a dieing language while Kamrup is a Lost Kingdom. The modern Assamese language is the dialect of ''Ahom Kindom.'' A good and practical name for this dialect should be ''Ahomese''. No Kamrupi scriptures were written in this dialect. === ''Antheraea assamensis'' === Foothills of Eastern Himalayas – is a big area it goes all the way to present Bangladesh. In fact places like Rangpur/Noihati presently in Bangladesh were in Kamrup. The Brahmaputra valley is not almost at sea-level. The valley is very inclined land but Brahmaputra ends almost at sea-level. ''Anthera Assama'' does not live in a climate other than Foothills of Eastern Himalayas, according to a biologist, if not genetically engineered. This fact should be documented somewhere. That is the reasion why it got Sanskrit name in part, i.e., ''assama''. : If it is documented somewhere that the word ''assama'' in ''Antheraea assama'' is from the Sanskrit word, please provide it here. According to my research, the first use of the Latin name for the Muga silkworm is from 1837 (as ''Antheraea assamensis'' Helfer, 1837; J. Asiat. Soc. Bengal, 6: 43). ''assamensis'' is latin for "of Assam". Therefore, it is nearly certain that the name is based on the name of the land, not the other way round. : Further, the land of the Ahoms have been called "Assam" long before the Muga silkworm was named. Some of the first accounts of the land came from travellers who travelled with Mir Jhumla during his invasion of Assam in 1663. Thomas Bowrey writes about Mir Jhumla: "They lost the best of Nabobs, the Kingdome of Acham, and, by consequence, many large priviledges" (Bowrey, Thomas, A Geographical Account of Countries around Bay of Bengal, ed Temple, R. C., Haklyut Society's Publications). Further, an account of Mir Jhumla's expedition can be found in Tavernier's "Travels in India", published in 1676. He uses the spelling "Assen" for Assam in the French original. The official chronicler of Mir Jhumla too calls the place "Asam" (The Indian Antiquary, July 1887, pp222-226) : Formal contact of between the East India Company and the Ahom kingdom was established in the context of the Moamoria Revolt, and has been documented in "Ango-Assamese Relations 1771-1826" (S. K. Bhuyan). In this account, the British have consistently referred to "Assam" and "Assamese". : We should sort these issues out so that we may remove the disputed tag and put forward the article for featured status. Thanks. : User:Chaipau 19:58, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC) ::'''* In order to equate Ahom equals ''asama'' you would need to discover the same in the volumes of scriptures called buranji that Ahom people wrote over hundreds of years. Please do not bring arguments what ''bongals'' tell for Ahom - these are irrelevant''' ::: It is not necessary to find the name in the Buranjis. It is already known that the epithet Asam, from which the modern term Ahom was formed, was given to the Ahom by the indigenous people. Your objection is infructuous. The dominant view among scholars is that the word Assam ''is'' associated with the Ahoms. Here is an entry from Satyendra Nath Sarma's ''Assamese Literature'', Harrassowitz, Wiesbaden, 1976. While the Shan invaders called themselves Tai, they came to be referred to as ''Āsām'', ''Āsam'' and sometimes as ''Acam'' by the indigenous people of the country. The modern Assamese word ''Āhom'' by which the Tai people are known is derived from ''Āsām'' or ''Āsam''. The epithet applied to the Shan conquerors was subsequently transferred to the country over which they ruled and thus the name Kāmarūpa was replaced by Āsām, which ultimately took the Sanskritized form ''Asama'', meaning "unequalled, peerless or uneven" [Banikanta Kakati: ''Assamese: Its Formation and Development'', p2]::: The quote is from the second paragraph of Chapter 1. As you can, this idea was first propounded by Banikanta Kakati (his PhD thesis was submitted in 1935), and subsequently most scholar have accepted this thesis. Wikipedia should have mention of alternative theories, but your objections are infructuous as far as this issue is concerned. You cannot demand a yardstick here which most scholars have rejected. User:Chaipau 16:49, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) Dr Banikanta Kakati was a Kamrupi man by the way. He must have done so in order to hide a resentment as because some Ahom wanted to claim the name of the state as because of there presence in Eastern Assam. But you might read a book by Bisweshwar Hazarika printed sometimes during 1850's (from my memory hole) -- a Ahom man and questioned in that book on Asama and Asamiya. User:Kurmaa 19:13, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) :: Hi User:Kurmaa, welcome to our discussion. I feel it does not serve any purpose to second guess the intentions of scholars. It is best to discuss their contributions on their merits. Kakati may be a Kamrupi; but for us, that is not important. What is important is that he produced work of a very high caliber, which people and scholars have accepted. It is also important to give opposing views/work a space; again, on their merit. I hope we can carry on with this discussion in this spirit and produce an entry on Assam that is highly regarded in the Wikipedia community and useful to serious readers. Setting our pet theories against each other will unfortunately not help us. User:Chaipau 15:14, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC) :*If Dr Banikanta Kakati has written in his work that "Assam was derived from Ahom" out of fear, than this is is a serious matter! Is it true? A number of scholars had based their works on Dr Kakati's work. If this is true, then all these works are standing on thin air! :*Kurma is Kamrupi, I am Jorhatia, he is Nalbaria, she is Barpetia, amuk is Ahom, tamuk is Kachari.... Banikanta Kakati is "Kamrupi", Debakanta Barua is "Kalangparia".... may I ask ''who is Assamese?''. ::Let us not ask these questions---or bring them up. Let us just look at the arguments on their individual merits. User:Chaipau 15:35, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC) User:Psneog 09:54, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC) By the way, Ahom is not a modern word as it can be traced in Ahom buranji - ancient scriptures written by Ahom, a type of chronicle. What Banikanta Kakati had presented was his own research based on his Hh.D. work. So please search for knowledge in the buranji scriptures first. :You already said that. And I have already shown how your assertion is meaningless. User:Chaipau 21:30, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC) Hello User:Chaipau You would need to realize that the outsiders created lot of names, e.g., India, Hindu, Assam, etc. What am I trying to tell? I am trying to tell that the Kamrupi scriptures have sloka that uses the word ''asama'' or ''assama'' or ''asom'' -- for your information, all three Roman spellings, i.e., ''asama'' or ''assama'' or ''asom'', have one native spelling in Kamrupi scripts; the word is used for two meanings one ''weird/sinner'' and the other ''not comparable with''. The Kamrupi speakers still use/speak this word for both meanings, and pronounced Sanskrit in Kamrupi. But present name ''Asom'' is not pronounced Sanskrit by Kamrupi speakers. : It might be so, but that is irrelevant in the context of this Wikipedia. Please do not bring in the fruits of your original research here. This is not the place for it (Wikipedia:No_original_research). Anyway, this is a theory most likely brought out by people who have racial prejudices against the Ahoms. Because it is impossible that a set of kings who ruled Assam for 600 years would accept a derogatory term to call themselves. The Ahoms did accept this appelation. Moreover I have not come across this in any academic work. Therefore, to keep Wikipedia racially un-prejudiced, this reference should be removed. : User:Chaipau 14:36, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::Please do not use the phrases like \"racially un-prejudiced\" as an excuse to support you. ::: If you do not have an acceptable reference for your mention here in a scholarly reference, please remove it. Please do not insert your own unverified research in Wikipedia, especially if it is racially prejudiced. This is the second request. User:Chaipau 17:26, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) * Why do you want to equate Ahom to ''asama''?''' * Ahom wrote volumes of scriptures called buranji over hundred of years documenting their account. In those scriptures why din't the Ahom people call themselves ''asama''? * Please go find in those buranji scriptures that said Ahom equals ''asama'' and tell so we all learn about it in order to help close this chapter. * Have you understood what needs to be done in order to equate Ahom equals ''asama''? Your references were all in English written by (probably) Bengali-assisted. We should try to find the original writing in order to compare the translation. I am confident to come up with something similar ''sindhu to hindu'' and ''indu to India'''''. : Your assertion is not correct. I mentioned the Mir Jhumla's chronicler who called the kingdom Asam, which predates the English/French references I have given. Clearly, the English and French picked it up from the Mughals, not the other way around. But there are references in the Assamese Bhagavad, translated by Sankardeva, where he calls the country "Asam Muluk", which is probably the first reference to Assam by that name. This reference is widely quoted in all academic works that I have come across. This is also another instance of how the word Asam could not have been used in the "weird/sinner" context you mention. : User:Chaipau 14:36, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC) * There is no scripture called Assamese Bhagavad; but Vaishnava saint Sankaradeva composed hymens of a few sections of the Kamrupi Vhagavad Puran while the whole scripture is a work of over twelve Vaishnava scholars - one may be questioned on plagiarism for messing up on such matter. In general, Vaishnava people will not be happy on such plagiarism as because guru Sankaradeva Himself asked to credit people for their excellence and not to give credit to Him for something He did not do. * It is not "Muluk" but ''maluka'', also it is not "Asam" but ''asama''. One needs to read the whole sloka in order to explore the meaning, both words do not go together as "''asama maluka''" for the meaning that User:Chaipau had created. In brief, he had used above double quoted two words, i.e., "Asam Muluk", from a sloka of 30 words length then he created his own meaning and came to debate with someone born Kamrupi :) * Here it appears that User:Chaipau is qualified to be called ''maluka'' - the Kamrupi meaning :) because he did not read the whole sloka in the scripture in order to explore the correct meaning but put forward ''misleading and lie''. * '''What is ''maluka'' in Kamrupi?''' * One who is further down than a ''murukha'' here ''murukha'' is Kamrupi word! **I strongly protest the use of such expletives on a co-contributor (murukha = idiot). I ask you to remove it immediately. User:Chaipau 17:59, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) ***I have already protested to this by removing the line. But the person who wrote it is so adament to insult co-authors that he re-inserted the line, with the lines "Did you read... . What made you delete an example....." (below). - User:Psneog 07:32, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) '''Any person who tries to contribute to this discussion must read Wikipedia:Wikiquette and Wikipedia:Civility first. Please don't make assamese (or kamrupi, whatever) people laughingstock to the world. Especially, no personnel attacks please. We all are here for a good cause. Wikipedia has numourous ways to stop vandels editing it. User:Psneog 07:10, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) * Did you read the same? What made you to delete an example? * Please do not use the phrase "personal attack" as an excuse to delete useful examples from the discussions. * Why do you claim yourself idiot''' User:Chaipau? * Why don't you try to learn first what would be the meaning of ''murukha''? * And User:Psneog where did you learn to talk to like that? * Is that the ''Hemkosh'' your source of knowledge in Kamrupi? * Here is a clip from Vaishnava devotional song ''murukha madhave bole'' composed by Madhavadeva. * Do you both see/understand what could be the meaning of ''murukha''? * My suggestion is that instead of jumping into conclusions, you both better go spent some time in Kamrupi villages in order to learn something. Should you not go learn and continue to redefine something that you think, what would you think a reader would assume you two might be? * I see the quoted example a nit one and it may be made available to all wikipidia contributors. * User:Kurmaa 19:13, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) No Kamrupi scriptures called the land ''Asom/Asama/Assama/Assam/'' because it was part of ''Kamrup''. The Ahom people wrote their History. Should we open their original History scripture, we see they too did not refer the lend ''Asom'' although we would find ''Asom'' in modern printed Ahome history book. It is something like why they call themself Hindu although it is not a Sanskrit word nor it has any spiritual connection. Because the outsiders called/documented so. : Which is again not true. Sankardeva's Bhagavad mentions "Asam muluk". : User:Chaipau 14:36, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC) * Reade above to discover what is true! Did I miss something there in yester year Ahom history scripts? -- I would like to see a reference so I correct myself. : Please see above. User:Chaipau 14:36, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC) * Reade above to discover what is true! * User:Chaipau is not the only one to redefined Kamrupi words' meanings. This had happened in modern Assamese, in some cases terrible, e.g., ''"toila nun naai suda byanjan ene shaad, binaa jaru bandha kibaa hari hawa sadme ashah"'' this was composed by Vaishnava philosopher Mahendrakandali in order to compliment Sankaradeva for his first composition of hari naam - Mahendrakandali trained Sankaradeva in present undivided Kamrup in a place called Routa. Here ''nun'' is the word that got mutilated in modern Assamese, its Kamrupi meaning is ''salt'' while Assamese meaning is female genetal. Pakara is another example! Upper Assam State was created at a relatively later date than the Indiabu Accord, I will have to check when. : This is not relevant here. See above. User:Chaipau 14:36, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Page on Lachit == I have added a page on Lachit Borphukan. Please have a look. User:Psneog 08:05, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC) == Gamocha == ===1=== The followings needs clarification: :The word ''gamosa'' is derived from the Kamrupi word ''gaamsa'' (''gaam''+''chadar''), the cloth used to cover the Bhagavad Purana at the altar. This is repetition. Apart from that, as far as I know, Assamese people keep Bhagavat or Srimadbhagavat (translated by Ssnkaradeva at the altar, not Bhagabad Purana. User:Psneog :For everybody's information, Sankaradeva composed only a few section of Bhagavad Puran to Kamrupi from Sanskrit. ::Who wrote this? Please sign. User:Psneog 05:35, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC) *Dr Rabin Deka wrote the above who lives in San Jose, California. He will write back later with a list of scholars who contributed to Kamrupi Bhagavad Puran including section-outline. *Sankardeva didn't use Kamrupi, he used Brajavali language in his works. User:Psneog 05:44, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC) *In undivided Kamrup upto Coos Behar one can find those words still spoken but heavily used in yester year scriptures. *The very phenomenal Sanskrit pronunciation usage in order to compose ''present perfect sentences'' is still spoken in undivided Kamrup. And this grammar is used to compose at least 90% percent of the sloka in yester year Kamrupi scriptures. This is the grammar one can find both in Kamrupi lokageet as well as Bargeet. *There are sloka in Kamrupi scriptures where scholars wrote explaining why they wrote in Kamrupi although they were good at Sanskrit. So one can find the word Kamrupi, but the word ''Brajavali nowhere''. *Now, please have a look at the ''Ramayana'' hymens composed by Madhavakandali, and then compare the language/grammar with that of Sankaradeva wrote; do the same with ''Prahlada Charita'' composed by Hemasarasvati - a scholar can make a impartial decision based on this. *Mahendrakandali trained Sankaradeva somewhere in present Routa area of undivided Kamrup. Upon reading Samkaradeva's first writing, Mahendrakandali complemented him with a sloka toila ''nun'' naai ..., ''nun'' here is not Brajabali it is Kamrupi word. To learn why kamrupi words were mutelated in Ahom Kingdom, please refer Grim's law Jakob Grimm as well on phoneme mutelation. No Ahomese scholars wrote a paper in this regard. I do not blame you for creating the word Brajavali, but try to look at why so(?) :Thanks for the info and the citations. Further, your citations are excellent. Wikipedia has a style of citations and why not use that standard in your citations? Please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cite_your_sources. :Apart from that I have no doubt that gamocha is used to cover the bhagabat, but is it bhagabat ''puran''? *User:Psneog 07:03, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC) (You can also sign your postings by using four tildas ("~"). ===2=== :Significantly the ''gamosa'' is used equally by all irrespective of religious and ethnic backgrounds. This seems to be an overstatement/exaggeration. User:Psneog Assamis a state in India States and territories of India See other meanings of words starting from letter: AAB | AC | AD | AE | AF | AG | AH | AI | AJ | AK | AL | AM | AN | AO | AP | AR | AS | AT | AU | AW | AX | AY | AZ |Words begining with Assam: Assam Assam Assam Assam/OriginDisputeResolution Assamese Assamese_cuisine Assamese_language Assamese_language Assamese_music Assamese_script Assamite Assam_General_Sales_Tax Assam_Peoples_Association Assam_Rifles Assam_tea
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