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Ashkenazi{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" align="right" width="250" |colspan="2" bgcolor="chocolate" align="center"|Ashkenazi |- |bgcolor="orange"|Total population: |bgcolor="#ffde80"|''11.2 million (est.)[http://perfectpitch.ucsf.edu/pppress.html]'' |- |bgcolor="orange"|Significant populations: |bgcolor="#ffde80"| United States: ''5 mil.''[http://www.sefarad.org/publication/lm/040/0.html] Israel: ''nn'' Europe: ''nn'' South Africa: ''nn'' Australia and New Zealand: ''nn'' |- |bgcolor="orange"|Language |bgcolor="#ffde80"|*Ashkenazi Hebrew (liturgical language) *Yiddish language *modern: specific to native country, including Modern Hebrew in Israel). |- |bgcolor="orange"|Religion |bgcolor="#ffde80"|Judaism |- |bgcolor="orange"|Related ethnic groups |bgcolor="#ffde80"| • Jews • Sephardi Jews • Ashkenazi • Mizrahi Jews Jews • Other Jewish groups |} Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or Ashkenazim (אַשְׁכֲּנָזִי אַשְׁכֲּנָזִים Standard Hebrew, Aškanazi,Aškanazim, Tiberian Hebrew, ʾAškănāzî, ʾAškănāzîm), are Jews descended from the Jewish communities of Germany, Poland, Austria, and Eastern Europe mostly established between the 10th Century and 19th Century centuries. In historical times and through the mid-20th Century, Ashkenazi Jews usually spoke Yiddish language or Slavic languages such as the (now extinct) Knaanic language, and developed a distinct culture and liturgy influenced by their native countries. Although in the 11th century they comprised only 3% of the world's Jewish population, today Ashkenazi Jews account for approximately 80% of world Jewry.[http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles3/sephardic.htm] == Origins and medieval history == Historical records show evidence of Jewish communities[http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Public/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf] in the Alps and Pyrenees as early as the 8th Century and 9th Century, and potentially dating back to Roman Empire times when these areas and the History of ancient Israel and Judah#Roman conquests were both incorporated under Roman rule. Jews were known to have lived in Cologne and what is now France between 300 and 600, but they were expelled by King Dagobert of the Franks in 629. Jewish traders from Islamic lands during the same period may also have been the origin of the Ashkenazi community, but other evidence suggests direct migration of Jews northward from Italy as the genesis of the ethnically and culturally distinct Ashkenazi group. By the early 900s, Jewish populations were well-established in Northern Europe, and later followed the Norman Conquest into England in 1066, also settling in the Rhineland. With the onset of the Crusades, and the expulsions from England (1290), France (1394), and parts of Germany (1400s), Jewish migration pushed eastward into Poland, Lithuania, and Russia. Over this period of several hundred years, some have suggested, Jewish economic activity was focused on trade, business management, and financial services, due to Christian European prohibitions restricting certain activities by Jews, and preventing certain financial activities (such as "usurious" loans) between Christians. (Ben-Sasson, H. (1976) A History of the Jewish People. Harvard University Press, Cambridge.) By the 1400s, the Ashkenazi Jewish communities in Poland were the largest Jewish communities of the Diaspora[http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Ashkenazim.html]. ===Usage of the name=== In reference to the Jewish peoples of Northern Europe and particularly the Rhineland, the word ''Ashkenazi'' is often found in medieval rabbinic literature. References to Ashkenaz in Yosippon and Hasdai's letter to the king of the Khazars would date the term as far back as the tenth century, as would also Saadia Gaon's commentary on Daniel 7:8. However, the word "Ashkenaz" itself first appears in the genealogy in the Tanakh (Genesis 10) as a son of Gomer and grandson of Japheth. It is thought that the name originally applied to the Scythians (Ishkuz), who were called ''Ashkuza'' in Assyrian inscriptions, and lake Ascanius and the region Ascania in Anatolia derive their names from this group. The "Ashkuza" have also been linked to the Oghuz branch of Turks including nearly all Turkic peoples today from Turkey to Turkmenistan. ''Ashkenaz'' in later Hebrew language tradition became identified with the peoples of Germany, and in particular to the area along the Rhine where the ''Allemani'' tribe once lived (compare the French and Spanish words ''Allemagne'' and ''Alemania'', respectively, for Germany). ===Medieval references=== In the first half of the eleventh century Hai Gaon refers to questions that had been addressed to him from "Ashkenaz", by which he undoubtedly means Germany. Rashi in the latter half of the eleventh century refers to both the language of Ashkenaz (Commentary on Deuteronomy 3:9; idem on Talmud tractate Sukkah 17a) and the country of Ashkenaz (Talmud, Hullin 93a). During the twelfth century the word appears quite frequently. In the ''Mahzor Vitry'', the kingdom of Ashkenaz is referred to chiefly in regard to the ritual of the synagogue there, but occasionally also with regard to certain other observances (ib. p. 129). In the literature of the thirteenth century references to the land and the language of Ashkenaz often occur. See especially Solomon ben Aderet's Responsa (vol. i., No. 395); the Responsa of Asher ben Jehiel (pp. 4, 6); his ''Halakot'' (Berakot i. 12, ed. Wilna, p. 10); the work of his son Jacob ben Asher, ''Tur Orach Chayim'' (chapter 59); the Responsa of Isaac ben Sheshet (numbers 193, 268, 270). In the ''Midrash'' compilation ''Genesis Rabbah'', Rabbi Berechiah mentions "Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah" as Germany tribes or as German lands. It may correspond to a Greek language word that may have existed in the Greek dialect of the Palestinian Jews, or the text is corrupted from "Germanica." This view of Berechiah is based on the Talmud (Yoma 10a; Jerusalem Talmud Megillah 71b), where Gomer, the father of Ashkenaz, is translated by ''Germamia'', which evidently stands for Germany, and which was suggested by the similarity of the sound. In later times the word Ashkenaz is used to designate southern and western Germany, the ritual of which sections differs somewhat from that of eastern Germany and Poland. Thus the prayer-book of Isaiah Horowitz, and many others, give the piyyutim according to the Minhag of Ashkenaz and Poland. == Customs, laws and traditions == The ''halakhah'' practices of Ashkenazi Jews may differ from those of Sephardi Jews, particularly in matters of custom. Differences are noted in the ''Shulkhan Arukh'' itself, in the gloss of Moses Isserles. Well known differences in practice include: *Observance of ''Passover'' (Passover): Ashkenazi Jews traditionally refrain from eating legumes, peanuts, corn, millet, and rice, whereas Sephardi Jews typically do not prohibit these foods. *In the case of ''kashrut'' for meat, conversely, Sephardi Jews have stricter requirements - this level is commonly referred to as ''Shulkhan_Arukh#Beth_Yosef''. Meat products which are not ''glatt'' may still be acceptable to Ashkenazi Jews as kosher, but are considered by the Sephardi Jews to be ''treif'' (non-kosher). Notwithstanding stricter requirements for the actual slaughter, Sephardi Jews permit eating the rear portions of an animal after proper Halacha deveining; Ashkenazi Jews do not. This difference is not due to a strict vs. lenient understanding of the law; rather, Ashkenazi Jews do not believe they have a reliable tradition as to the proper removal of these veins. *Ashkenazi Jews frequently name newborn children after deceased family members, but not after living relatives. Sephardi Jews, on the other hand, often name their children after the children's grandparents, even if those grandparents are still living. (See Sephardi#Names). *Ashkenazi Jews have a custom for the bride and groom to refrain from meeting one week prior to their wedding. == Relationship to other Jews == The term ''Ashkenazi'' also refers to the ''nusach'' (Hebrew language, "liturgical tradition") used by Ashkenazi Jews in their ''Siddur'' (prayer book). A ''nusach'' is defined by a liturgical tradition's choice of prayers, order of prayers, text of prayers and melodies used in the singing of prayers. This phrase is often used in contrast with Sephardi Jews, also called Sephardim, who are descendants of Jews from Spain and Portugal. There are some differences in how the two groups pronounce Hebrew and in points of ritual. Several famous people have this as a surname, such as Vladimir Ashkenazi. Ironically, most people with this surname are in fact Sephardi, and usually of Syrian Jewish background. This family name was adopted by the families who lived in Sephardic countries and were of Askenazic origins, after being nicknamed Askenazi by their respective communities. Some have shortened the name to Ash. Other spellings exist, such as Eskenazi by the Syrian Jews who relocated to Panama and other South-American Jewish communities. Literature about the alleged Turkic origin of the Ashkenazi population appeared mainly after 1950. See also: Jew, Judaism, Rabbenu Gershom ==Genetics== ===Specific diseases=== The Ashkenazi Jewish population has, like many other endogamous populations, a higher incidence of specific hereditary diseases. Genetic counseling and genetic testing are recommended for couples where both partners are of Ashkenazi ancestry. Some organizations, most notably Dor Yeshorim, organize screening programs to prevent homozygote for the genes that cause these diseases. A large number of these diseases are neurological. See [http://www.jewishgeneticscenter.org Jewish Genetics Center] for more information on testing programmes. Diseases with higher incidence in Ashkenazim include, in alphabetical order: * Bloom syndrome * Breast cancer and ovarian cancer (due to higher distribution of BRCA1 and BRCA2). * Canavan disease * Colorectal cancer due to hereditary nonpolyposis colorectal cancer (HNPCC). * Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (non-classical form) * Crohn's disease (the ''NOD2/CARD15'' locus appears to be implicated) * Cystic fibrosis * Familial dysautonomia (Riley-Day Syndrome) * Fanconi anemia * Gaucher's disease * Hemophilia C * Mucolipidosis IV * Niemann-Pick disease * Tay-Sachs disease * Torsion dystonia * Von Gierke disease ===IQ=== According to many studies, Ashkenazi Jews have among the highest average intelligence of any ethnic group as measured by IQ, leading East Asians, who also perform highly in IQ. Race and intelligence This result is often used to explain some of the intellectual achievements of Ashkenazi Jews. For example, while Ashkenazi Jews represent 3% of the population of the United States, they have won 27% of the US Nobel Prizes in science, 25% of the Turing Award, and have accounted for more than half of World Chess Championship. Whether this difference in IQ and achievement is due entirely to a culture of study and vocational training (environment), or partially to a difference in genetics variables, is unknown and controversial. (For a discussion of scholars opinions about race and intelligence in general, see Race and intelligence) ====Natural history of Ashkenazi intelligence==== A controversial 2005 study[http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Public/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf] by Gregory Cochran, Jason Hardy, and Henry Harpending of the University of Utah, to be published in Cambridge's Journal of Biosocial Science, hypothesises that European Jews' history of persecution created social selection for high intelligence, leaving a positive effect on their IQ#Genetics_vs_environment. European Jews were forbidden to work in the common jobs of the middle-ages, such as agriculture, and subsequently worked in high proportion in meritocracy, IQ-intensive jobs, such as finance and trade, some of which were forbidden to gentiles by the church. Cochran et. al point out that those who performed better raised more children to adulthood, thus passing on their (higher-IQ) genes in greater proportion than those who performed poorer. The Jews rarely married outside of their faith, which created a reproductively isolated population, allowing evolution to occur. Cochran et. al hypothesize that in this environment the social selection for intelligence was strong enough that mutations that created higher intelligence but created disease when inherited from both parents would still be selected for, which may be responsible for the unusual pattern of genetic diseases, such as Tay-sachs, that is found in the Ashkenazi population. Some of these unique diseases, for example, cause neurons to make too many connections with neighboring neurons. Alternative explanations along these lines include, for example, that for Jews to be socially successful in their peer group, expertise at Torah study has traditionally been an advantage. Since the Enlightenment, those Jews lacking the intellectual skills for this endeavour may have been more prone to assimilate into general culture and leave the reproductively-isolated Jewish population. ''See also this topic covered by the [http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4032638 Economist], the [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/03/science/03gene.html New York Times], and the [http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=14211 Jewish Telegraphic Agency].'' ==Modern History== In an essay on Sephardic Jewry, Daniel Elazar at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs[http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles3/sephardic.htm] summarized the demographic history of Ashkenazi Jews in the last thousand years, noting that at the end of the 11th Century, 97% of world Jewry was Sephardic and 3% Ashkenazic; in the mid-seventeenth century, "Sephardim still outnumbered Ashkenazim three to two," but by the end of the 18th Century "Ashkenazim outnumbered Sephardim three to two, the result of improved living conditions in Christian Europe as against the Muslim world."[http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles3/sephardic.htm] By 1931, Ashkenazi Jews accounted for nearly 92 percent of world Jewry.[http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles3/sephardic.htm] Ashkenazi Jews developed the Hasidic movement as well as major Jewish academic centers across Poland, Russia, and Lithuania in the generations after emigration from the west. After two centuries of comparative tolerance in the new nations, massive westward emigration occurred in the 1800s and 1900s in response to pogroms and the economic opportunities offered in other parts of the world. Ashkenazi Jews have made up the majority of the American Jewish community since 1750[http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Ashkenazim.html]. Ashkenazi cultural growth led to the ''Haskalah'' or Jewish Enlightenment, and the development of Zionism in modern Europe. ===Ashkenazi Jewry and the Holocaust=== Of the estimated 8.8 million Jews living in Europe at the beginning of World War II, the majority of whom were Ashkenazi, about 6 million were systematically murdered in The Holocaust; 3 million of 3.3 million Polish Jews, and 900,000 in Ukraine, as well as 75-90% of the Jews of Germany, the Baltic and Slavic nations, and France.[http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/killedtable.html] Many of the surviving Ashkenazi Jews emigrated to countries such as France, the United States, and Israel after the war. Today, Ashkenazi Jews constitute approximately eighty percent of world Jewry.[http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles3/sephardic.htm] ==References== * Beider, Alexander (2001): ''A Dictionary of Ashkenazic Given Names: Their Origins, Structure, Pronunciations, and Migrations''. Avotaynu. ISBN 1886223122. * Brook, Kevin Alan (1999): ''The Jews of Khazaria''. Jason Aronson. ISBN 0765762129. * Brook, Kevin Alan (2003): "The Origins of East European Jews" in ''Russian History/Histoire Russe'' vol. 30, nos. 1-2, pp. 1-22. * Gross, N. (1975) Economic History of the Jews. Shocken Books, New York. * Haumann, Heiko (2001): ''A History of East European Jews''. Central European University Press. ISBN 9639241261. * Koestler, Arthur (1976): ''The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and Its Heritage''. Random House. ISBN 0394402847. (Most hypotheses in this book are now considered incorrect by most historians) * Wexler, Paul (1993): ''The Ashkenazic Jews: A Slavo-Turkic People in Search of a Jewish Identity''. Columbus: Slavica. ISBN 0893572411. ==External Links== * [http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Ashkenazim.html Ashkenazi history at the Jewish Virtual Library] Ashkenazi Jews Ashkenazi==Question on table== Does "nn" stand for "not known"? I'm confused by this -- can someone who knows more about this than I do fix this? * ''nn'' is sort of a generic numeric variable, and stands in for a place where a number is needed. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 01:54, May 8, 2005 (UTC) ==Koestler, Khazars, etc.== If you have a problem with the contents of Koestler and Wexler's books, I'd suggest you articulate those objections in an impartial and scholarly manner inside the article. Of course, that also means you'll have to explain the ideas that are contained in those books. Putting a "disclaimer" above the books as you have done is not NPOV. If you can't keep your emotions or personal biases out of the article, maybe you shouldn't be editing it. ----- You are correct to ask for an explanation for such statements; I am happy to provide such an explanation. In regards to Arthur Koestler's 1976 book, ''The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and Its Heritage'' (Random House), I offer the following information. Most of the significant claims in his book have been throughly debunked by historians. :http://www.nybooks.com/articles/8646 :...Leon Wieseltier can only be commended for debunking Arthur Koestler's attempt to rehabilitate the long discredited theory of the non-Semitic origins of East European Jewry [NYR, October 28]. :A glance at Koestler's intellectual meanderings and fluctuations across the past three decades can only lead one to conclude that his intentions this time around in The Thirteenth Tribe were not the advancement of knowledge but cruel mischief, unforgiveable attention seeking (considering the predictable Arab response already noted by Wieseltier). Koestler, therefore, deserves to be openly chastised for misusing his considerable intellectual talents and devoting them to such a peripheral theory bordering on fantastic speculation, a tangential issue in Jewish history even in its heyday a generation or so ago. :Professor Henry R. Huttenbach, Department of History, The City University of New York, New York City [http://www.theamericanvoice.com/ChristIdentity.html RECOGNIZING CHRISTIAN IDENTITY and Koestler's book] [http://web.archive.org/web/20030515113444/http://home.uchicago.edu/~jas/papers/khazaria.html Book review followed by point by poitn refutations] [http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&th=5d23a461706d523d&rnum=2 Errors in the Thirteenth Tribe, by Kevin Brook] ---- http://www.khazaria.com/brookcv.html Kevin Brooks, a historian on this subject writes in a Usenet newsgroup post: :From: Kevin Brook :Subject: Re: Khazars :Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval :Date: 2001-12-17 16:43:19 PST : :Many elements of Arthur Koestler's thesis were proven false, while a few others were proven true. Some of his false claims are: :* His concept that German Jews did not migrate to eastern Europe in large numbers. :* His claim that French and German Jews mostly died out in the Middle Ages. :* His exaggerated population figures for Khazaria. :* His claim that Crimean Karaites descend from Khazars. :* His supposition, based on Gumplowitz and other Polish Jewish scholars, that certain Polish placenames were named after Khazars. Only in Hungary and Transylvania do we find placenames that actually come from Khazars. :* His claim, based on Mieses, that an Austrian legend about Jewish princes was based on the Khazar rule of Hungary. :* His claim, based on Poliak, that Ashkenazic shtetls were derived from Khazar village life. :* His claim that Ashkenazic Jews have hardly any genetic or anthropological connections to the ancient Judeans. :The following book reviews of his "The Thirteenth Tribe" provide various opinions (Rosensweig, Wieseltier, Szyszman, and Majeski are highly critical of Koestler's book but sometimes their criticisms are illegitimate; by contrast, MacLean, Steiner, Cumming, Schechner, and some other reviewers were more positive): :Abramsky, Chimen. "The Khazar Myth." Jewish Chronicle (April 9, 1976). :Adams, P. L. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Atlantic 238 (September 1976): 97. :Anonymous. "Lost Empire: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." Economist 259 (April 24, 1976): 121. :Blumstock, Robert. "Going Home: Arthur Koestler's Thirteenth Tribe." Jewish Social Studies 48:2 (1986): 93-104. :Brace, Keith. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Birmingham Post (1976). :Cameron, James. "Ask the Rabbi: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." New Statesman 91 (April 9, 1976): 472. :Cumming, John. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") The Tablet (1976). :Du Boulay, F. R. H. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") London Times Educational Supplement (June 18, 1976). :Fox, Robin Lane. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") The Financial Times (1976). :Fuller, Edmund. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Wall Street Journal (1976). :Grossman, Edward. "Koestler's Jewish Problem: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." Commentary 62 (December 1976): 59-64. :Kanen, R. A. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Library Journal 101 (August 1976): 1632. :Kirsch, Robert. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Los Angeles Times (1976). :Klausner, Carla L. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Kansas City Times and Star (September 12, 1976). :Maccoby, Hyam. "The Khazars and the Jews: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." The Listener 95 (April 8, 1976): 450. :MacLean, Fitzroy. "Shalom Yisrah: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." New York Times Book Review (August 29, 1976): 4. :Majeski, Jane. "Chutzpah: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." National Review 27 (November 12, 1976): 1248-1249. :Mason, Philip. "The Birth of the Jews? The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." Spectator 236 (April 10, 1976): 19. :Meyer, Karl E. "Conversion in Khazaria: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." Saturday Review 3 (August 21, 1976): 40. :Raphael, Chaim. "Chosen Peoples: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." Times Literary Supplement (June 11, 1976): 696. :Rosensweig, Bernard. "The Thirteenth Tribe, the Khazars and the Origins of East European Jewry." Tradition 16:5 (Fall 1977):139-162. :Salamone, V. A. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Best Sellers 36 (November 1976): 262. :Schechner, Mark. "All the Difference in the World: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." Nation 223:17 (November 20, 1976): 535-536. :Sheppard, R. Z. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Time 108 (August 23, 1976): 60. :Sokolov, Raymond. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Newsweek. 1976. :Steiner, George. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") The Sunday Times (April 6, 1976). :Szyszman, Simon. "La question des Khazars essai de mise au point." Jewish Quarterly Review 73:2 (October 1982): 189-202. :Toynbee, Philip. "Who Are the Jews? The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." London: Observer (April 4, 1976): 27. :Wieseltier, Leon. "You Don't Have to Be Khazarian: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." New York Review of Books (October 28, 1976): 33-36. :(Author?) (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") New Yorker 52 (September 20, 1976): 145. ===Moved from Article=== ==Intelligence== I moved this from the article after hearing that it was it at least rewritten carefully citing an actual study, metrics and particulars of any study -- if not simply removed. :Ashkenazic Jews are the group with the best results in intelligence testing. :Their contribution to many areas of cultural achievements (for example: philosophy, physics, mathematics, chemistry, music, psychology, biology, medicine) far exceeds their proportion in the general population. :See:[http://www.jinfo.org] :Please refer to race and intelligence for a theory of the coincidence of higher IQ and neurological disease in Ashkenazi Jews. Thanks, User:Bcorr|User talk:Bcorr 04:00, Apr 18, 2004 (UTC) Hi Bcorr, you are correct that this description is very sketchy. It's an echo of the material on race and intelligence, which seems to have come mainly from [http://jerrypournelle.com/reports/cochran/overclocking.html Greg Cochran's] article on Jerry Pournelle's Chaos Manor page. Greg Cochran is an evolutionary biologist with an interest in neurology, as evidenced from PubMed. This article, "How the Ashkenazi Got Their Smarts", circulates in various blogs and other resources, and never does he quote a peer-reviewed article. Perhaps most can be gained by contacting him, (he works at Amherst College, MA, dept of biology). I've been unable to figure out his email address - perhaps you have ways. At any rate, this is not the first time I've heard an evolutionary biologist make rather off-the-hand remarks that turn out to be wild speculation. User:Jfdwolff User:Jfdwolff | User_talk:Jfdwolff 16:01, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC) == Disputed == Has anyone else actually read the massive material recently added to the article? It is a lengthy tract claiming that the Ashkenazi are ''not'' descended from the Biblical Jews. As far as I know, this is very much a minority opinion, as inappropriate as an earlier article that claimed that the Pashtoon ''are'' descended from the Biblical Jews. I suggest reversion to User:Esparkhu's version of 10:39, Nov 26, 2004. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 01:20, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC) :It's mostly Khazaria nonsense; the cites given (for example Brooks) don't come to the conclusions the author of this article has. While the information about Khazar Jews may be accurate to a degree (if outdated), the claim that Ashkenazi Jews and Khazars are the same is simply not true. Genetic and linguistic evidence indicates that Ashkenazi Jews descended from Jews living in the Roman empire, and particularly the Italian regions, who migrated northwards from there to Germany, where Yiddish began to develop, and from there eastwards to Poland, Hungary, Ukraine etc. It is possible that Khazar Jews make up ''some'' of the ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews, but it is a minority at most, and that connection is itself still unproven. As Brooks himself concludes "Are all Jews around the world descended from the Khazars? Certainly not. East European Jewish ancestry originates substantially from ancient Judea, and the same is true of most other modern Jewish populations (with the exception of groups like Libyan Jews and Ethiopian Jews). But, it is rational to conclude that some Jews also have some Khazar ancestors." User:Jayjg 02:30, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC) ::Also, in Polish history it is noted that at the moment Poles came into contact with the Khazars, there were already Jews in Poland - and these groups were considered completely distinct, both by the outside world and by themselves. User:Halibutt">User:Halibutt|User:Halibutt 02:44, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC) :While I'm the farthest thing from an expert on the subject, I do find the "Ashkenazi = Khazars" claim to be rather contrary, if not completely antic. Also, couldn't we do better than quoting large, repetitious chunks of fourteen(!) other encyclopedias? They may just qualify as fair use (no more than 10%, etc), but I don't like the way they comprise the bulk of the history section. The hodgepodge reminds me of a lazy college student's essay. It'd be best to excise the quotes and (if possible or necessary) rewrite the data, or simply summarize. In my opinion, of course. -- User:Hadal 04:06, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC) *User:Jmabel's judgment is correct, too much speculative and hypothetical nonsense was added to the article, and so I have joined Jmabel's advice to revert and have done so. Thank you. User:IZAK 05:00, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC) ==History== I'd love to see a history section. I could make a try, if nobody disagrees.--User:Wiglaf 16:17, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC) :A history of what, Ashkenazi Jews? User:Jayjg | User_talk:Jayjg 19:19, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::Yes, a short one about their immigration to the Rhineland and later migrations to Eastern Europe as well as a summary of Jews in East European history. But, that is just me, and I won't insist on such a section.--User:Wiglaf 23:07, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC) :::It seems reasonable to me, though there are other articles dealing with Jewish history. Ashkenazi specific stuff would make sense here. User:Jayjg | User_talk:Jayjg 01:19, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::::Jay, do you know if general paths of Jewish migration are already covered somewhere? -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 06:23, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC) :::::I don't recall an article on it, I'll try to look for one tomorrow. User:Jayjg | User_talk:Jayjg 06:32, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC) ::::I've been doing some reading on this lately. If we don't already have something, I'll try to help. -- User:Jmabel | User talk:Jmabel 07:04, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC) :::::The closest I can find is History of the Jews in Germany. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, Wikipedia is huge. User:Jayjg | User_talk:Jayjg 01:06, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC) I've found a source that is ''very'' informative on the various migrations since about 1650 (and especially since the 19th century), how the Jews fit the various societies, how some countries might be best understood as containing ''multiple'' Jewries, of the splits between Orthodox and modernizing tendencies, etc. Unfortunately, I have been able to borrow it only briefly. See other meanings of words starting from letter: AAB | AC | AD | AE | AF | AG | AH | AI | AJ | AK | AL | AM | AN | AO | AP | AR | AS | AT | AU | AW | AX | AY | AZ |Words begining with Ashkenazi: Ashkenazi Ashkenazi Ashkenazic Ashkenazic_dialect Ashkenazic_Hebrew Ashkenazic_Hebrew_dialect Ashkenazic_Hebrew_language Ashkenazic_Jew Ashkenazic_Jews Ashkenazic_Judaism Ashkenazim Ashkenazi_dialect Ashkenazi_Hebrew Ashkenazi_Hebrew_dialect Ashkenazi_Hebrew_language Ashkenazi_Jew Ashkenazi_Jews Ashkenazi_Jews
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