Abraham

Abraham (אַבְרָהָם "Father/Leader of many", Standard Hebrew Avraham, Tiberian Hebrew ʾAḇrāhām; Arabic language ابراهيم Ibrāhīm) is the patriarch of Judaism, recognized by Christianity, and a very important prophet in Islam. The story of his life is told in the Book of Genesis and in the Quran. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are sometimes referred to as the "Abrahamic religions" because of the role Abraham plays in their holy books and beliefs. In the Hebrew Bible and the Qur'an, Abraham is described as a patriarch blessed by God and promised great things, father of the People of Israel through his son Isaac, and of the Ishmaelites, generally identified as the Arabs, through his son Ishmael. In Islam, Abraham is considered to be one of the most important of the many prophets sent by God. Christian belief considers Abraham's attempt to offer up Isaac as a foreshadowing of God's offering of his son, Jesus. His original name was Abram (אַבְרָם "High/Exalted father/leader", Standard Hebrew Avram, Tiberian Hebrew ʾAḇrām); he was the foremost of the Bible Patriarchs (Bible). Later in life he went by the name Abraham. There is no contemporary mention of his life, and no source earlier than Genesis mentions him, so it is difficult to know if he was a historical figure. If he was, he probably lived between 2166 BC and 1991 BC. ==Abraham in Genesis== The account of his life is found in the Book of Genesis, beginning in Chapter 11, at the close of a genealogy of the sons of Shem (which includes among its members Eber, the eponym of the Hebrews). His father Terah came from Ur of the Chaldea, identified by most historians with the ancient city in southern Mesopotamia which was under the rule of the Chaldeans — although some believe that "Ur" should be identified with Urfa (or Ur-Of-The-Khaldis) in northern Mesopotamia, in keeping with the local tradition that Abraham was born in Urfa; or with the nearby Urkesh, which others identify with "Ur of the Chaldees". They also say "Chaldees" refers to a group of gods called Khaldis while the Urartian language is also known as Chaldaean thanks to Josephus. Abram migrated to Haran, apparently the classical Carrhae, on a branch of the Habor. Thence, after a short stay, he, his wife Sarah, Lot (biblical) (the son of Abram's brother Haran), and all their followers, departed for Canaan. There are two possible Ur cities not far from Haran; Ura and Urfa, a northern Ur also being mentioned in tablets at Ugarit, Nuzi, and Ebla. These possibly refer to Ur, URA, and Urau (See BAR January 2000, page 16). Moreover, the names of Abram's forefathers Peleg, Serug, Nahor and Terah, all appear as names of cities in the region of Haran (Harper's Bible Dictionary, page 373). Yahweh called Abram to go to "the land I will show you", and promised to bless him and make him (though hitherto childless) a great nation. Trusting this promise, Abram journeyed down to Shechem, and at the sacred tree (compare Gen. 25:4, Book of Joshua 24:26, Book of Judges 9:6) received a new promise that the land would be given unto his seed (descendant or descendants). Having built an altar to commemorate the theophany, he removed to a spot between Bethel and Ai (biblical), where he built another altar and called upon (i.e. invoked) the name of Yahweh (Gen. 12:1-9). Here he dwelt for some time, until strife arose between his herdsmen and those of Lot. Abram thereupon proposed to Lot that they should separate, and allowed his nephew the first choice. Lot preferred the fertile land lying east of the Jordan River, whilst Abram, after receiving another promise from Yahweh, moved down to the oaks of Mamre in Hebron and built an altar. In the subsequent history of Lot and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Abram appears prominently in a passage where he intercedes with Yahweh on behalf of Sodom, and is promised that if ten righteous men can be found therein the city shall be preserved (18:16-33). Driven by a famine to take refuge in Egypt (26:11, 41:57, 42:1), Abram feared lest his wife's beauty should arouse the evil designs of the Egyptians and thus endanger his own safety, and alleged that Sarai was his sister. This did not save her from the Pharaoh, who took her into the royal harem and enriched Abram with herds and servants. But when Yahweh "plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues" suspicion was aroused, and the Pharaoh rebuked the patriarch for his deceit and sent him away under an escort (12:10-13:1). There is a parallel text describing a similar event at Gerar with the Philistine king Abimelech. As Sarai was infertile, God's promise that Abram's seed would inherit the land seemed incapable of fulfilment. His sole heir was his servant, who was over his household, a certain Eliezer of Damascus (15:2). Abraham is now promised as heir one of his own flesh. The passage recording the ratification of the promise is remarkably solemn (see Genesis 15). Sarai, in accordance with custom, gave to Abram her Egyptian handmaid Hagar, who, when she found she was with child, presumed upon her position to the extent that Sarai, unable to endure the reproach of barrenness (cf. the story of Hannah, Books of Samuel 1:6), dealt harshly with her and forced her to flee (16:1-14). Hagar is promised that her descendants will be too numerous to count, and she returns. Her son Ishmael thus was Abram's firstborn (and Islamic doctrine holds that he was the rightful heir). Hagar and Ishmael were eventually driven permanently away from Abram by Sarah (chapter 21). The name ''Abraham'' was given to Abram (and the name Sarah to Sarai) at the same time as the covenant of circumcision (chapter 17), which is practiced in Judaism and Islam to this day. At this time Abraham was promised not only many descendants, but descendants through Sarah specifically, as well as the land where he was living, which was to belong to his descendants. The covenant was to be fulfilled through Isaac, though God promised that Ishmael would become a great nation as well. The covenant of circumcision (unlike the earlier promise) was two-sided and conditional: if Abraham and his descendants fulfilled their part of the covenant, Yahweh would be their God and give them the land. The promise of a son to Sarah made Abraham "laugh," which became the name of the son of promise, Isaac. Sarah herself "laughs" at the idea, when Yahweh appears to Abraham at Mamre (18:1-15) and, when the child is born, cries "God hath made me laugh; every one that heareth will laugh at me" (21:6). In Genesis 18, Abraham pleads with God not to destroy Sodom, and God agrees that he would not destroy the city if there were 50 righteous people in it, or 45, or 30, 20, even 10 righteous people. (Abraham's nephew Lot (biblical) had been living in Sodom.) Some time after the birth of Isaac, Abraham was commanded by God to offer his son up as a sacrifice in the land of Moriah. Proceeding to obey, he was prevented by an angel as he was about to sacrifice his son, and slew a ram (sheep) which he found on the spot. As a reward for his obedience he received another promise of a numerous seed and abundant prosperity (22). Thence he returned to Beersheba. The near sacrifice of Isaac is one of the most challenging, and perhaps ethically troublesome, parts of the Bible. According to Josephus, Isaac is 25 years old at the time of the sacrifice or "Akedah", while the Talmudic Sages teach that Isaac is 37. In either case, Isaac is a fully grown man, old enough to prevent the elderly Abraham (who is 125 or 137 years old) from tying him up had he wanted to resist. The primary interest of the narrative now turns to Isaac. To his "only son" (22:2, 12) Abraham gave all he had, and dismissed the sons of his concubines to the lands outside Canaan; they were thus regarded as less intimately related to Isaac and his descendants (25:1-6). See also: Midianites, Sheba. Sarah died at an old age, and was buried in the Cave of Machpelah near Hebron, which Abraham had purchased, along with the adjoining field, from Ephron the Hittites (Genesis 23). Here Abraham himself was buried. Centuries later the tomb became a place of pilgrimage and Muslims later built an Islamic mosque inside the site. ==Abraham in Judaism== Abraham is considered the father of the Jewish nation, as their first Patriarch, and having a son (Isaac), who in turn begat Jacob, and from there the Israelite. To father the nation, God "tested" Abraham with ten tests, the greatest being his willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac. God promised the land of Israel to his children, and that is the first claim of the Jews to Israel. Judaism ascribes a special trait to each Patriarch. Abraham's was kindness. Because of this, Judaism considers kindness to be an inherent Jewish trait. Jewish tradition teaches the origins of Abraham's monotheism. His father Terah owned a store that sold idols. Abraham (then Abram), at the age of three, started to question their authenticity. This culminating in Abraham destroying some idols. Abraham was then brought to the king, and sentenced to death, along with his brother Haran, unless they recanted their position. Abraham did not, and was thrown into a fire. When Abraham exited unscathed, Haran also would not recant, and was thrown into the fire. Haran, who did not truly believe, died in the fire. This is hinted to in Genesis 11:28. Abraham then went to Haran (the city, different name than his brother) with his father and brother. His father died there. God spoke to Abraham for the first time, and told him of great things He would give him if he would leave Haran. Abraham did. He was seventy-five during this affair. Abraham started a school for teaching his beliefs in God, and some say he wrote the Sefer Yetzirah. Jews today mention Abraham in their prayers, when praying to "the God of Abraham". And, because of Genesis 15:1, ask that God shield them, like he promised to shield Abraham. Also, the epitome of his tests, the binding of Isaac on the altar, is mentioned many times in the Jewish liturgy. == Abraham in Christianity == Abraham stands out prominently as the recipient of the promises (Gen. 12:2-7, 13:14-17, 15, 17, 18:17-19, 22:17-18, 24:7). In the New Testament Abraham is mentioned prominently as a man of faith (see e.g., Epistle to the Hebrews 11), and the apostle Paul of Tarsus uses him as an example of salvation by faith (in e.g. Epistle to Galatians 3). The New Testament uses Abraham to justify belief in the resurrection of the dead. "But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken." (Gospel of Mark 12:26-27) "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called,"[d] 19concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense." (Hebrews 11:17-19) The Eastern Orthodoxy view in Christianity is that the chief promise made to Abraham in Genesis 12 is that through Abraham's offspring, all the people of earth would be blessed. This promise was fulfilled through Abraham's descendant, Jesus Christ. It is also a consequence of this promise that Christianity is open to people of all races and not limited to the Jews. The Roman Catholic Church calls Abraham "our father in Faith," in the Eucharistic prayer called ''Roman Canon'', recited during Mass. Christian tradition sees Abraham as a figure of God, and Abraham's attempt to offer up Isaac is a foreshadow of God's offering of his Son, Jesus (Gen. 22:1-14; Heb. 11:17-19). Just as Isaac carried wood for the sacrifice up the mountain and willingly submitted to being offered, so Jesus carried his Cross up the hill and allowed himself to be crucified. ==Abraham in Islam== Abraham (called Ibrahim in Islam) is very important to Islam, both in his own right and as the father of Ismail (Ishmael), his firstborn son. Abraham (Ibrahim) is considered one of the first and most important prophets of Islam, and is commonly termed Khalil Ullah, Friend of God. (Islam regards most of the Old Testament "patriarchs" as prophets of God, and hence as Muslims.) While most Muslims believe that Adam, the first man, was the first Muslim (submitter to God), they universally agree that Abraham was a prophet of God. According to the Quran, Abraham reached the conclusion that anything subject to disappearance could not be worthy of worship, and thus became a monotheist (Al-An'am:76-83.) As in Jewish belief, Abraham's father (named Azar in Islam) was an idol-maker, and Abraham broke his idols, calling on his community to worship God instead. They then cast him into a fire, which miraculously failed to burn him (as-Saaffat:83-98.) The well-known but wholly non-canonical Qisas al-Anbiya (Ibn Kathir) records considerably more detail about his life, which are commonly referred to in Islamic accounts of his life[http://iisca.org/knowledge/biographies/ibrahim_1.htm]. Traditionally, Muslims believe that it was Ishmael rather than Isaac whom Abraham was told to sacrifice. In support of this, Muslims note that the text of Genesis (Hebrew Bible), despite specifying Isaac, appears to state that Abraham was told to sacrifice his only son ("Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac," [http://www.breslov.com/bible/ Jewish Publication Society] translation, Genesis/Bereshit 22:2) to God. Since Isaac was Abraham's second son, it is arguable there was no time at which he would have been Abraham's "only son", and that this supports the Muslim belief that there was an original text that must have named Ishmael rather than Isaac as the intended sacrifice. The Qur'an itself does not specify by name which son Abraham nearly sacrificed (Quran 37:99-111). Also, unlike in Jewish belief, Muslims also note that nowhere in the Qur'an does God say that it was God who told Abraham to sacrifice his son nor does God say He gave Abraham the dream of the sacrifice. The Quran teaches that God never advocates evil. Thus, it is said that for a father to slaughter his son, is an evil that cannot be coming from God; it can only come from Satan. Furthermore, Muslims state that God would not contradict himself and, therefore, would not order Abraham to commit what he prohibited, even as a test. Since Abraham thought the dream was from God and he proceeded to sacrifice his son Ismail, God sent him the lamb to be sacrificed instead, and to save Ismael and the father-son sacred relationship. Furthermore, Muslims believe that God promised to protect His righteous believers from Satan's tricks, and he saved Abraham and his son, Ismail, this exact test. This entire episode of the sacrifice is regarded as a trial that Abraham had to face from God. It is celebrated by Muslims on the day of Eid ul-Adha. Muslims also believe that Abraham, along with his son Ishmael, rebuilt the Kaaba in Mecca (al-Baqara:125). Abraham is one of the most important Prophets of Islam in Islam, and Muslims have a specific ''dua'' that (in some traditions) they recite daily which asks God to bless both Abraham and Muhammad. According to Islamic tradition, he is buried in Hebron. In the Masjid al Haram in Mecca, there is an area known as the "station of Ibrahim" (''Maqam Ibrahim'' مقام), which supposedly bears an impression of his footprints. ==Abraham in philosophy== Abraham, as a man communicating with God, inspired philosophers, like the existentialists, such as Kierkegaard and Sartre. The "stress of Abraham" was a concept invented by Kierkegaard and later processed by Sartre like this: God asks Abraham to sacrifice his only son (old testament). How does Abraham know that the voice he hears is really the voice of his God and not of someone else or even the product of an ill mind condition? Thus, Sartre concludes, even if there are signs in the world, it is to us, humans to decide how to interpret them and so we are abandoned in our freedom, which is the core of existentialism. This of course makes sense within the context of rationalism but not inside mysticism, the foundation of every religion. ==Abraham and his descendants== Biblical narratives represent Abraham as an idealized sheikh (with one important exception, Gen. 14, see below). As the father of Isaac and Ishmael, he is ultimately the common ancestor of the Israelites and their neighbours. As the father of Midian, Sheba and other Arabian tribes (25:1-4), it seems that some degree of kinship was felt by the Hebrews with the dwellers of the more distant south, and it is characteristic of the genealogies that the mothers (Sarah, Hagar and Keturah) are in the descending scale as regards purity of blood. As stated above, Abraham came from Ur in Babylonia and Haran and thence to Canaan. Late tradition supposed that the Migration (human) was to escape Babylonian idolatry (Judith 5, Jubilees 12; cf. Joshua 24:2), and knew of Abraham's miraculous escape from death (an obscure reference to some act of deliverance in Isaiah 29:22). The route along the banks of the Euphrates from south to north was so frequently taken by migrating tribes that the tradition has nothing improbable in itself, but the prominence given in the older narratives to the view that Haran was the home gives this the preference. It was thence that Jacob, the father of the tribes of Israel, came and the route to Shechem and Bethel is precisely the same in both. A twofold migration is doubtful, and, from what is known of the situation in Palestine in the 15th century BC, is extremely improbable. Further, there is yet another parallel in the story of the conquest by Joshua, partly implied and partly actually detailed (cf. also Joshua 8:9 with Gen. 12:8, 13:3), whence it would appear that too much importance must not be laid upon any ethnological interpretation which fails to account for the three versions. That similar traditional elements have influenced them is not unlikely; but to recover the true historical foundation is difficult. The invasion or immigration of certain tribes from the east of the Jordan; the presence of Aramean blood among the Israelites; the origin of the sanctity of venerable sites — these and other considerations may readily be found to account for the traditions. Noteworthy coincidences in the lives of Abraham and Isaac, noticed above, point to the fluctuating state of traditions in the oral stage, or suggest that Abraham's life has been built up by borrowing from the common stock of popular lore. More original is the parting of Lot and Abraham at Bethel. The district was the scene of contests between Moab and the Hebrews (cf. perhaps Judges 3), and if this explains part of the story, the physical configuration of the Dead Sea may have led to the legend of the destruction of inhospitable and vicious cities. ==Historical criticism== Different writers have regarded the life of Abraham differently. He has been viewed as a chieftain of the Amorites, as the head of a great Semitic migration from Mesopotamia; or, since Ur and Haran were seats of Moon-worship, he has been identified with a moon-god. From the character of the literary evidence and the locale of the stories it has been held that Abraham was originally associated with Hebron. The double name Abram/Abraham has even suggested that two personages have been combined in the Biblical narrative; although this does not explain the change from Sarai to Sarah. But it is important to remember that the narratives are not contemporary, and that the interesting discovery of the name ''Abi-ramu'' (Abram) on Babylonian contracts of about 2000 BC does not prove the Abram of the Old Testament to be an historical person, even as the fact that there were "Amorites" in Babylonia at the same period does not make it certain that the patriarch was one of their number. One remarkable chapter associates Abraham with kings of Elam and the east (Genesis 14). No longer a peaceful sheikh but a warrior with a small army of 318 followers, he overthrows a combination of powerful monarchs who have ravaged the land. The genuineness of the narrative has been strenuously maintained, although upon insufficient grounds. On the assumption that a recollection of some invasion in remote days may have been current, considerable interest is attached to the names. Of these, Amraphel, king of Shinar (i.e. Babylonia, Genesis 10:10), has been in the past identified with Hammurabi, one of the greatest of the Babylonian kings (c. 2000 BC), and since he claims to have ruled as far west as the Mediterranean Sea, the equation has found considerable favour. Apart from chronological difficulties, the identification of the king and his country is far from certain, and at the most can only be regarded as possible. Arioch, king of Ellasar, has been connected with Eriaku of Larsa — the reading has been questioned — a contemporary with Hammurabi. Chedorlaomer, king of Elam, bears what is doubtless a genuine Elamite name. Finally, the name of Tid'al, king of Goiim, may be identical with a certain Tudhulu the son of Gazza, a warrior, but apparently not a king, who is mentioned in a Babylonian inscription, and Goiim may stand for Gutim, the Guti being a people who lived to the east of Kurdistan. Nevertheless, there is as yet no monumental evidence in favour of the genuineness of the story, and at the most it can only be said that the author (of whatever date) has derived his names from a trustworthy source, and in representing an invasion of Palestine by Babylonian overlords has given expression to a possible situation. The improbabilities and internal difficulties of the narrative remain untouched, only the bare outlines may very well be historical. If, as most critics agree, it is a historical romance (cf., e.g., the book of Judith), it is possible that a writer, preferably one who lived in the post-exilic age and was acquainted with Babylonian history, desired to enhance the greatness of Abraham by exhibiting his military success against the monarchs of the Tigris and Euphrates, the high esteem he enjoyed in Palestine and the practical character displayed in his brief exchange with Melchizedek. On the probable historicity of this meeting between Abra(ha)m and Melchizedek, see Melchizedek and the historical section there. See also the historical section of the article Tithe, which provides more evidence on the historicity of the meeting with Melchizedek. Several professors of archeology claim that many stories in the Old Testament, including important chronicles about Abraham, Moses, and others, were actually made up by scribes hired by King Josiah (7th century BC) in order to rationalize monotheistic belief in Yahweh. Evidently, the neighboring countries that kept many written records, such as Egypt, Assyria, Indus Saraswati, India, etc., have no writings about the stories of the Bible or its main characters before 650 BC. Such claims are detailed in "Who Were the Early Israelites?" by William G. Dever, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, MI (2003). Another such book by Neil A. Silberman and colleagues is "The Bible Unearthed," Simon and Schuster, New York (2001). ==References== * The 1911 Encyclopedia. * Genesis ==See also== *[http://www.soundvision.com/info/hajj/abraham.asp Abraham in all three Abrahamic faiths] *[http://www.hajj.ca/Ismail.html Abraham's sacrifice: an Islamic perspective] *[http://www.GospelTruth.info/ GospelTruth] -- God's promises to Abraham according to Christian belief *[http://www.BiblicalArcheology.Net/ Biblical Archeology] -- Bible-related article about Abraham *[http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020930/ The Legacy of Abraham] -- Time magazine cover story *[http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/2004/09/09_abraham/ Children of Abraham] -- episode of the weekly Minnesota Public Radio show ''Speaking of Faith'' *Abrahamic religions *Abraham's bosom *List of founders of major religions Abrahamic religions Christian prophets Islamic prophets Torah people fa:ابراهیم la:Abraham

Abraham

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Abraham

The spelling Abraham was erased. As this is a redirect from Abraham as well, common use suggest that that spelling should be kept as well.--User:AstroNomer ---- Almost all of the information in this article comes from the Genesis, but it is presented in a very heavy-handed, editorialised fashion. I propose to rework it into more of a synopsis, shortening it somewhat in the process and removing the stuff about the authorship of Genesis, which is not germaine to the topic (besides being controversial). Is anyone going to object if I do that? --User:Jonadab ---- Well, nobody objected, so I did it. The article in its former form is preserved at Abram in the 1911 Encyclopedia, which is linked from the new article under Modern Views. If someone with access to the 1911 Encyclopedia can restore that node to a more original state, that would be good. The new node still needs work in some sections. --User:Jonadab ==grammar nit== :''The name Abram is a Hebrew pun on Ibrim, meaning hebrews, to sound like "Exaulted Father", and was the foremost of the Biblical patriarchs. '' The word ''Abram'' in the above sentence is used both as a word, and as the thing that the word represents. This can be very confusing to the reader. : "Abram, a Hebrew pun on Ibrim" - that sounds unlikely, given that ancient Hebrew would have had the two words beginning with different consonants, ayin and aleph. Any evidence? - User:Mustafaa 05:20, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC) ---- (comments moved from article to talk) I don't think this is true:...in Genesis 11:28, all it says is Haran died, not that Abraham was unscathed in a fire. I think the author is thinking about another story, with three characters instead of one. Sorry! In fact, many aspects of this article are questionable. ---- I have deleted two "to be improved" sentences and last section, which was quite unencyclopedic. Of course, this edit is debatable :) User:Pfortuny 11:19, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC) ---- This paragraph seems to attempt a critique. It uses phrases like "very loose" and "ignores ... entirely", and reports that "most fundamental Christians" do not hold to it. Is this a list of how the view fairs against credentials of some sort or, is it how those who hold the view would describe their position? I think the former; and so I'd favor deleting or re-writing the paragraph. User:Mkmcconn 21:49, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC) : ''However, some amillenialists hold that the Christian Church has replaced Israel and receives the promises on her behalf. This view arises from an interpretation of Galatians 3:7-9, but it requires a very loose interpretation of the book of Revelation, ignores Romans 11 entirely, and is not accepted by most fundamental Christians. For further information on this debate, see dispensations and supersessionism.''' :As it is, it is not worth including. The idea is interesting but I do not think it fits in this article. User:Pfortuny 16:06, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC) One part of this article says that there is no source for Abram's life other than the Bible/Torah; another says it is the main source. Do we know which is right? Also if there is no other source, then it would make sense to simply say so at the start of the article, and then recount the scriptural version, rather having having to put 'according to tradition' and suchlike every few sentences? User:DJ Clayworth 21:24, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC) :The only sources (as of 2004) are from the Bible AFAIK (although maybe the Qu'ran has something ''different''). As for your second statement, you are right... should be done as you say. User:Pfortuny 11:28, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC) Aaargg, don't have time to do this. I'm supposed to be finishing WWI in Italy. User:DJ Clayworth 04:30, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC) :I'll try to take a look at it :) User:Pfortuny 07:42, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC) :I did it more or less. Problems: *Muslim tradition... what are the sources? This I do not know. *The last 3 paragraphs are very boring... They need rewriting at the least. I took out Wellhousen's (?) long quotation as it had no contextual support. :In any case, feel free. User:Pfortuny 08:15, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC) == Is the term "Biblical" NPOV?== Since Jews and Muslims don't necessarily believe in the Bible, is it appropriate to make multiple use of the word "biblical" in this article? Just wondering. User:MPS20:48, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC) Is "so it is not possible to know if he was a historical figure" in the third paragraph NPOV? Wouldn't something like "so there is no additional confirmation that he was a historical figure" be more NPOV, given that Genesis, as a historical document, asserts his existence? ==Event sequence confusion== I'm a trifle confused. The translations that I'm reading of the Bible (and Torah) show the events being that he is first promised the land for his descendents, then leaves to Egypt, and then leaves from there, settles, and finally seperates from Lot. This article seems to swap the Egypt and Lot seperation. Anyone? Are my translations wrong, or am I reading the article incorrectly? :I agree with you, sir. --User:Anglius 18:23, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) ----- ==About Abraham in philosophy== Abraham is presented very well, not only as an historical figure but also as a symbol of religions, but he is also an object of philosophy. Since some major philosophers wrote about him i thought it should be mentioned.--User:Arberor 10:31, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC) ==Errors== It is an insult to all Christians to say that he lived "Before the Common Era" rather than "Before Christ." In addition, it is quite possible that he existed prior to 2000 B.C. I, for one, believe that he was born in circa 2246 B.C. and succumbed in approximately 2071 B.C. (he lived to be 175 years old). --User:Anglius 18:23, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) : It is as much of an insult to Jews to say he lived "Before Christ", and Jews were talking about Abraham well before Christians. As for date, if you ca:n provide a source for such a claim, then by all means change it. - User:Mustafaa 18:46, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) :Yes, sir, but "B.C." was prevalent long before the invention of the "Common Era" system. I thank you for your permission to alter the years of his existence, though. --User:Anglius 19:16, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Yuber's Edits Again== Yuber again violated every principle that I put on his talk page (including discussing it on the talk page and not being deceptive), and this was after I paid him the biggest compliment that I could muster. This time, he did even worse: he tried to revert an edit made days ago and disguise it by saying it was minor. YUBER HAS NOW DONE 3 REVERSIONS OF THE SAME PASSAGE. As to substance, he is entirely wrong. '''I won't go into the Islam page and interpret the religious aspects there, and he (or anyone else outside their religion) should not here. Further, he has been warned by respected editors to stay off controversial pages. Since Yuber is being a serial reverter again, I should not need to address the substance of the edit, but here it is. : Christianity does not view Abraham as the ancestor of the Arabs; the bible and Jesus simply do not address Islam or its history at all. And certainly the Old Testiment, based on Judaism, does not assert the part about Ishmael and the Arabs. Further, the word \"ancestor\" is a problem for many Christians because some believe it may not mean it in the literal sense. Before Yuber got involved, this accurately described the Christian view. I will attempt to make it accurate again. --User:Noitall 22:31, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC) In addition, on the substance, Christians do not view themselves as an \"Abrahamic religion\" because they only believe in one, Christ. That is why they call themselves a Christian religion not an Abrahamic religion. --User:Noitall 22:37, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC) BTW, feel free to edit the sections that I know less about, namely: :Judaism sees Abraham as the founder of the people of Israel and the ancestor of their people through his son Isaac. Muslims recognize Abraham as the founder of their religion through his son Ishmael. --User:Noitall 22:41, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC) Noitall, Abraham is NOT considered the founder of Islam; he is one of the many prophets. Please clarify facts before editing. If many Christians do not consider him not be an Abrahamic religion, we can adjust that accordingly. There is no need to shout in the edit history. Okay? Thanks. --User:Anonymous editor 23:08, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC) Because some people have difficulty reading, which makes editing very very difficult''', I have highlighted some principles so that you will edit what you know about correctly. --User:Noitall 23:12, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC) :Thus, you should have no problems understanding now what Muslims believe in this manner and secondly, I have edited to show the christian POV in this regard. Lastly, Yuber has every right to edit this article and Abraham is one of the major figures in Islam and by saying 'Arabs' it does not mean Abraham founded Islam. Also you can not speak for all christians because many of them may say that they do consider themselves to be Abrahamic religions. I know many myself. Also biblical citations are not needed. --User:Anonymous editor 23:22, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC) :How dense are you Anon? I stated to FEEL FREE TO MODIFY THE MUSLIM OR ARAB PORTIONS. I highlighted it in bold. I made it in CAPS. You still do not read or follow directions. But stay off the Christian areas where you admit you have no expertise are not competitent. I do not go over to the Islam page and put in there my interpretations, and you should not put in your religious interpretations of Christianity. --User:Noitall 23:29, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC) Noitall, all 3 religions regard him as the ancestor of the Arabs. Arab DOES NOT EQUAL Muslim, you seem to not understand this. There are passages in the bible about Ishmael.User:Yuber^{User_talk:Yuber} 23:31, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC) :Noitall, I take offence to these attacks you are making against me. I do indeed have expertise in both the Islam areas and the christian areas as I was once christian myself! I have dual interpretations in this regard. I am simply putting forth an effort trying to make this article as NPOV as possible and surely you can see this by my edits. By reverting to your POV everytime, you are damaging the credibility of this article and making it like one off a christianity site. You do not speak for all christians, I know many who consider themselves to be of the "Abrahamic religions". --User:Anonymous editor 23:43, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC) Noitall, read Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Now, back to business... The Old Testament does indeed describe Ishmael as ancestor of the Ishmaelites, the Bedouin of the deserts east and south of Palestine (cf. [http://www.searchgodsword.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T4682].) A long exegetical tradition identifies the Ishmaelites with the Arabs, plausibly enough (particularly in light of its apparent equivalence with the Midianites.) However, not all Christians accept the Old Testament genealogies as true, and not all Christians accept the traditional exegesis. The latter, at least, applies to Jews as well. A more appropriate wording should reflect both facts, say "He is regarded by all three religions as an ancestor of the Jews, through Isaac, and the Ishmaelites, through Ishmael. In Islam, and in many interpretations of Christianity and Judaism, the Ishmaelites are identified as the Arabs." - User:Mustafaa 00:16, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Christian and Biblical Endorsement of Islam and Arabic Heritage== It is trying to insert a POV to try to lump the views of all 3 religions into one common belief. It is just clear POV of trying to get some endorsement. The common belief of Christians is as I stated. But to summarize, I made these points: : 1. The New Testament and Jesus simply do not address Islam or its history at all. : 2. Certainly the Old Testament, based on Judaism, does not assert the part about Ishmael and the Arabs (but do recognize Mustafaa's statement, but this intro is not the place for it) : 3. The word "ancestor" is a problem for many Christians because some believe it may not mean it in the literal sense. : 4. Christians do not view themselves as an "Abrahamic religion" because they only believe in one, Christ. That is why they call themselves a Christian religion not an Abrahamic religion. Here is my edit for the passage in the 2nd paragraph of Abraham, which the serial reverters keep taking out (and BTW, I invited changes to the Judaism and Muslim parts where I have less expertise): : '''Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are sometimes referred to as the "Abrahamic religions" because they all refer to the lessons of Abraham to some degree. Although Christians do not refer to themselves by this term, they view Abraham as an early figure of faith and recognize his attempt to offer up Isaac as a foreshadowing of God's offering of his Son, Jesus (Gen. 22:1-14; Heb. 11:17-19). Judaism sees Abraham as the founder of the people of Israel and the ancestor of their people through his son Isaac. Muslims recognize Abraham as the one of many religious prophets through his son Ishmael.''' This is accurate with regard to Christianity. Let's keep it that way and not insert a POV right up front in the intro. --User:Noitall 00:38, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC) No it isn't accurate even with regard to Christianity - as [http://www.brow.on.ca/Sermons/Abram.htm many] a [http://www.geocities.com/anderson_chapel/Abraham.html sermon] points out. - User:Mustafaa 00:59, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) :Noitall, If you checked the current article you will find that the almost the same thing that you have said in your 'edit' is stated in more NPOV manner and in less generalized terms. You must realize that you do not speak for all christians, I know many who consider themselves to be of the Abrahamic religions. Mustafaa's sources further prove my point. Surely by saying Abrahamic religion, it does not mean those whose religion was founded by Abraham, but those peoples whose ancestry are linked through Abraham, through Ishmael and Isaac. Clearly by generalizing what you seem to think ALL 'christians refer to themelves as', you are inserting your POV in the first paragraph. --User:Anonymous editor 02:05, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC) I am on Wiki, so I make no claim that my edit was the ''perfect'' edit. The criticism regarding the word or implication regarding ALL christians is duly noted and I will modify accordingly. That does not change the fact that the First sentence of the second paragraph is entirely inaccurate. I hope in this spirit that you will accept my edit as well. --User:Noitall 12:19, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC) In looking further into this -- note my intent to not speaking for all Christians but to note the general practice of Christianity and Christians -- I see that I cut and pasted my edit, and somehow the word "generally" was left off. That should emeliorate the concern. --User:Noitall 14:19, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC) "In the Torah/Old Testament... Abraham is described as a patriarch blessed by God and promised great things, father of the People of Israel through his son Isaac, and of the Ishmaelites, generally identified as the Arabs, through his son Ishmael." I take it no one's arguing the first two clauses, so that leaves "father of the Ishmaelites, generally identified as the Arabs, through his son Ishmael." See [http://www.studylight.org/dic/ebd/view.cgi?word=Ishmael&action=Lookup Easton's Bible Encyclopedia] ("He had twelve sons, who became the founders of so many Arab tribes or colonies, the Ishmaelites"), [http://www.studylight.org/dic/sbd/view.cgi?number=T2141 Smith's Bible Dictionary] ("The sons of Ishmael peopled the north and west of the Arabian peninsula, and eventually formed the chief element of the Arab nation, the wandering Bedouin tribes.") and even the [http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T2864 International Standard Bible Encyclopedia] ("The character of Ishmael and his descendants (Arabian nomads or Bedouins)..."). - User:Mustafaa 00:44, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::You are entirely inaccurate as to general Christian thought. Where to begin?: 1. Your entire passage is read as a whole, and you have inserted it to make your POV. If you want to be accurate, copy the entire biblical section, but this would be inappropriate to the introduction and not make the POV that you are trying to assert. 2. Many Christians do not believe in the literal translation of Genesis. Historically, the stories orally passed down for thousand(s) of years before being written down (and somehow the 50 years before the Gospels were written down makes them inaccurate?!). Many Christians believe that Jesus used such stories as a parabel and that later Christians used the stories as a foreshadowing of Jesus's life. What all Christians agree on is that Abraham was an early figuire of faith, whether literally or figuratively. There is too much more to educate you, but I don't think you want to be educated. You have a POV and that is it. I just can't imagine what would happen if I tried to edit Islam or tried to edit the Muslim sections in this article simply because I found a couple sources that, on the surface, agreed with my POV. --User:Noitall 01:12, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) It doesn't matter whether Christians believe in the literal translation of Genesis or not; that's why I phrased it as "the Old Testament says" rather than "Christians believe". I am well aware that Christians of various denominations may believe anything from every word of the Bible to virtually none, and no doubt some don't even believe Abraham existed. Hence the value of sticking with well-defined sources. - User:Mustafaa 01:20, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) And incidentally, you ''still'' haven't made clear what, if anything, you believe to be inaccurate about the phrasing In the Torah/Old Testament... Abraham is described as a patriarch blessed by God and promised great things, father of the People of Israel through his son Isaac, and of the Ishmaelites, generally identified as the Arabs, through his son Ishmael." - User:Mustafaa 01:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) User:Mustafaa, now you have shown your POV spots. Your statement and bias is so condescending and anti-Christian. You Are Christians the only ones with a range of beliefs, or does your religion legal enforce its views, see Apostasy in Islam? You are beyond redemption. --User:Noitall 01:31, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) And once again, your comment specifies no objection, beyond a personal attack on me as being "condescending and anti-Christian". If you want to get back on the actual subject, you're welcome to do so. - User:Mustafaa 01:36, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) :Noitall, absolutely NO need to personally attack religions or religious views. It will ruin any credibility of yours as a neutral editor. All Mustafaa is adding is the Torah/Old Testament. What exactly is the problem with that??? Stop attacking him because he is of a different faith than you. Thanks. --User:Anonymous editor 01:37, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) ::That is why you 2 are birds of a feather. I am RESPECTFUL OF YOUR RELIGION, while you make absurd, condescending and biased generalizations and attempt to INSERT THE MUSLIM POV INTO CHRISTIANITY. In fact, you 2 are so astonished that I have not even once attempted to insert my opinion or "knowledge" into Muslim or Jewish areas. That is why I have had to repeat myself so many times. I just can't imagine acting like you 2 are doing here. --User:Noitall 01:47, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) ::: You know very little about Judaism, judging by your Torah misunderstanding, and presumably the same goes for Islam. Fair enough; that's a good reason not to edit articles on those topics. I've spent most of my life in (post-)Christian societies, and have read most of the Bible, as well as a fair amount of other Christian literature; indeed, C. S. Lewis is one of my favorite religious writers. Why should I pretend to know nothing about Christianity? It's always good to learn more, of course, which is one reason why we should ''get back to the subject'' of Abraham... - User:Mustafaa 01:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::::And I was once Christian; I told you that before. I know both Christianity and Islam well enough now. You seem to generalize between all christian POVs and for some reason you think that the Torah has absolutely no part in the Old Testament. I have always shown you tolerance and respect and so has Mustafaa. Now lets get back to subject please. --User:Anonymous editor 02:07, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) ==Back on topic== This is the current wording: : Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are sometimes referred to as the "Abrahamic religions" because of the role Abraham plays in their holy books and beliefs. In the Torah/Old Testament and the Qur'an, Abraham is described as a patriarch blessed by God and promised great things, father of the People of Israel through his son Isaac, and of the Ishmaelites, generally identified as the Arabs, through his son Ishmael. In Islam, Abraham is considered to be one the most important of the many prophets sent by God. Christian belief considers Abraham's attempt to offer up Isaac as a foreshadowing of God's offering of his son, Jesus. If anyone objects to it, feel free to explain why here. - User:Mustafaa 02:28, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) :*See the million words above for objections (but please use your eyes and, if possible, your brain). I will correctly edit the statement in the future AGAIN. --User:Noitall 02:33, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) ::Okay then state your objection briefly to why the two words "Old testament" can not be put beside the Torah in this article? Thanks.--User:Anonymous editor 02:35, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) Noitall, your proposed edit is wrong. Either the sentence accurately describes the Torah - in which case by definition it accurately describes the Old Testament - or it doesn't. It is not possible for a sentence to accurately describe the Torah and Tanakh without accurately describing the Old Testament, because they are the same thing. And if it ''doesn't'' accurately describe the Torah and Tanakh/Old Testament, then you should explain why. - User:Mustafaa 02:44, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) :Whoever wrote the entire piece was not me. I was actually making a simple edit in removing those 2 words that I thought would survive and get past the issue because Anon said it would. Then you reverted Mustafaa and this is where we are. If I am going to make the ENTIRE PIECE accurate and supportable, it will take time. It is not just 2 words. --User:Noitall 02:53, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) :Note that I was just trying to get along when I edited those 2 words. In actual fact, my earlier edits had an entirely different paragraph (until Yuber reverted, getting a 3RR). --User:Noitall 02:56, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) ::You still have not made it clear what your problem is with the article. Is it your view that Ishmael's twelve sons and his settling in Arabia are not part of Christian theology even when they are mentioned in the Bible?User:Yuber^{User_talk:Yuber} 02:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::User:Yuber, you were 3RRed on this page for deleting my edits. The very edits you now ask about. [removed personal attack] I do not have time to respond to you as I need to check Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration to see if the Arbitrators' opinions on the hearing against Yuber are still (4/0/0/0). --User:Noitall 03:43, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) Before you go and add your demands for "prosecution" of Yuber, which btw I am strongly against, please tell us what the issue is with this article. If you are truly concerned you will say it right now.--User:Anonymous editor 03:49, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) Could one of the parties to this conflict please explain what the issue is? It appears that Noitall and Mustafaa are opposed to each other and possibly reverting each other to some extent, based on this talk page and brief skimming of the edit history. Could someone put each person's version of a key paragraph, perhaps the one Mustafaa quoted at the beginning of this section, and Noitall's version side by side here on Talk and explain which version is better and ''why it matters so much'' to have one version and not the other? There are altogether too many insults and screaming on this page for me to make sense of what the problem is; and I mean the problem with the article or some version of the article, not the problem with this or that editor. User:Wesley 16:46, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) The above text as modified by User:Jayjg now reads: :"Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are sometimes referred to as the "Abrahamic religions" because of the role Abraham plays in their holy books and beliefs. In the Hebrew Bible and the Qur'an, Abraham is described as a patriarch blessed by God and promised great things, father of the People of Israel through his son Isaac, and of the Ishmaelites, generally identified as the Arabs, through his son Ishmael. In Islam, Abraham is considered to be one of the most important of the many prophets sent by God. Christian belief considers Abraham's attempt to offer up Isaac as a foreshadowing of God's offering of his son, Jesus. This seems reasonable to me. If anyone objects to this version, please say why here. User:Paul August User_talk:Paul August 21:49, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

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